Compassionate Listening with Jenn Lozano and Ann Stevens

In this episode, Jenn Lozano and board member Ann Stevens explore the art of listening in an Unbound session or simply to a friend or someone in need.

Ann describes three overall ways one can respond when listening to hard things shared. Responses of fear or pride may be human responses, but God will give us grace to respond in humility, extending compassion to the individual receiving prayer. 

Join them as Ann shares the importance of taking personal time prior to an Unbound ministry session to seek the Lord and meditate, even briefly, on a passage from Matthew 7. She reminds us about the depth and unlimited nature of God’s forgiveness.

There is the “small story,” and the “big story.” The small story being the details of a prayer recipient’s account and the big story of God’s power forgiveness and the ability to move into the bigger place of what God is doing.

Ann speaks about the importance of staying present in the moment and being aware of one’s own body language so the recipient feels heard.

The idea of redirecting within an Unbound session is discussed, with Jenn giving an example of a time when she was leading and a recipient withdrew because they felt unheard in the moment. Listening is an art and tips are provided to be compassionate without getting stuck rehashing the hard things someone has been through. 

Ann shares a personal example of a time that she received compassion during a therapy session and describes how the empathy shown by the therapist helped her feel heard in the moment. 

The biblical account of the disciples on the road to Emmaus is explored, showing how Jesus came alongside the disciples and, after listening to their story, helped draw them out of their small story into the bigger picture of what God was doing. 

Ann concludes with the reminder that as we remember God’s unlimited compassion and mercy for each of us personally, we can through the Holy Spirit not judge and can help a prayer recipient step into recognizing God’s big story.

Find a great talk by Fr. Boniface Hicks that also teaches on listening.

Join us at one of our Freedom in Christ conferences

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Check out Unbound and find other resources

Release: November 2023
Music by Christian Harper
Artwork by Rosemary Strohm at Command-S

Transcript

JENN: Hello, and welcome everyone to today’s podcast. My name is Jenn Lozano and I am your host for today. I have a very special guest joining me today—one of my dear friends, Ann Stevens. You might know her as the superstar who gives that incredible talk in the Freedom in Christ conference, “Staying Free,” and she is one of our E-course instructors. She’s actually teaching an E-course right now and you see her at most of our conferences here in the Philadelphia area. So, I am so happy to have you join me today, Ann. Welcome!

ANN: Thanks, Jenn. It’s so fun to be here – love to get out of my house. (laughter)

JENN: You’ve been getting out of your house a lot; you’ve had a busy fall.

ANN: I have, yes—it’s great, all good stuff. 

JENN: She only has one at home still, but lots of driving, right?

ANN: Unbelievable amounts of driving, but it’s what I signed up for. Thank you, Lord. It’s awesome—lots of time with my favorite youngest son.

JENN: That’s awesome. Her favorite youngest son happens to be very good friends of one of my children’s, so they are good buddies—hang out a lot, as are Ann and I. Ann and I are looking forward to this conversation today. I think it’s going to be a blessing to you, I think especially as she is in the middle of teaching one of our basic e-courses. That’s actually a plug for our e-courses. They are so incredible. But something that comes up a lot is the discussion around listening in an Unbound session. So we’re going to spend some time today just talking about listening and hopefully answer some of the burning questions you have about listening. But I think maybe where we are going to start today is a concern that we hear very often in our training whether it is in an E-course or training in a conference, but how do you listen and hear all the hard stories and hard things that people bring to the table when they come for an Unbound session? So let’s start there, Ann. How would you respond to that question?

ANN: “Well, many ways. One of course is, God’s going to give you grace—grace you need in the moment, in the session. But I was thinking through when someone shares something that seems hard or overwhelming to you, we kind of have three ways that we can respond. There’s probably more, but this is the way that I like to think about it. So one way is I can have a fearful response. Fear can rise up in me as I hear some kind of horror story and I may even be unaware, like some deep fear like, “O my gosh, this might happen to me, or maybe just it seems like a horrifying story—you just have this fear response. Another way you might respond would be the flip side of fear, which is pride, and you might start comparing yourself a little bit and think, “Ah, well, I would have never done that.” Obviously these are not the ways we want to respond to someone bringing difficult stories to us in Unbound because we are going to hear a lot of difficult stories. And the third way of course is that middle road – the way the Lord would respond – which would be that compassionate gaze toward the person, where I’m able to listen to these difficult things and not be fearful of what they’re telling me or be proud and judgmental about what they’re telling me. 

JENN: That’s good. How do you avoid the first two- the pride or the fear? How do you work to avoid those things when you head into an Unbound session? 

ANN: As with so many things in Unbound, knowing your own soul and working on your relationship with the Lord, your connection with the Lord, it’s just primary. I mean, it’s the basis for everything in our life, right? And so of course taking that time before a session (it doesn’t even have to be that long) to turn to the Lord, to repent of your own pride, your own fear, your own insecurity, and I’m thinking about that scripture from Matthew 7. “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged. And with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? Your hypocrite. First take the plank out of your own eye and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.’” And that just speaks so much to understanding who we are before the Lord. When I know my soul, when I know what I’ve been forgiven of and I’ve received in faith the great mercy that Jesus has for me, I’m not going to be surprised by things I hear. When people share ways they’ve responded that maybe are different from the way I would have responded, I still know that I would be capable of that response – that I would be capable of that horrible thing that the person did. Not better, but it’s in me -that brokenness is in me too. And that helps me listen without judgment and I can have compassion on the circumstances that led to the person responding that way.

JENN: That makes me think of the talk that Fr. Boniface Hicks gives on listening, I think it’s called “Transformative Listening,” and he talks about understanding our own poverty and I love that word. That’s really what you just described, Ann, just recognizing our own need, our own lack, our poverty—and that we need the Lord as you just mentioned and are capable of every single thing that a story might bring to the table. But I think there’s something about that, too, that I imagine if we all took that position where we lowered ourselves and humbled ourselves before an Unbound session and just made ourselves little, it really positions you to 1. Rely on the Lord, but also 2. To receive the person in front of you. 

ANN: Yes. Yes. And to receive the Lord, right, understanding that there’s nothing he can’t forgive if you bring it to Him. As Corrie Ten Boom said, “There is no pit so deep that God is not deeper still.” There’s nothing in this person’s life that they’ve done or have experienced done to them that is outside of the reach of the love of God. And when I know that and I don’t have to be fearful of the horrible things in their story and I don’t have to remove myself from it and I can ‘come out of myself’ in that compassionate gaze. Which is part of making yourself little. So I’m not looking at myself; I’m looking at the person before me and I’m looking through Jesus’ eyes. And I’m looking with Jesus. And so here’s the person before me telling their small story—we always talk about the small story and the big story—here they are telling their small story but I’m looking at them with the compassion of Jesus. But since I’m looking through Jesus’ eyes, I’m also seeing the big story that they’re moving in and that’s what enables me to help them move through that small story out into the larger story. 

JENN: It’s funny hearing you share that—it reminds me of how I feel typically, when I’m in an Unbound session, is I feel like a cheerleader because you can see the finish line before they can. And that’s really coming alongside of someone, but I always feel like a cheerleader, like “Yes! You can do it.” And they’re sharing their stuff, but I’m like, “This is awesome! You can do it. You can forgive! It’s gonna be glorious!” Sorry, I got a little excited there. The big story – it’s so good!

ANN: “Let’s go, let’s go.” Let’s get the big story! Yeah, I love that. That’s so great.

JENN: I’m still kind of stuck on the pride and fear thing. Do you have some practical pointers on how to listen? I think particularly without judgment, what that would look like?

ANN: Other than the praying beforehand and getting your heart right? So, when I’m listening to someone’s story, I may have some very human reactions to what they’re saying, some interior reactions. But I’m going to put those aside because it’s not about me in this session, it’s about being present to the person. So I try to focus on the person even if it’s just as simple as maintaining eye contact, looking down to take some notes but then looking right back up. I’m going to engaged with the person. I’m usually leaning forward which communicates interest and concern for them. Sometimes if you’re tempted to be afraid or judgment you might be tempted to lean back in your seat. That slight lean  forward shows interest and engagement and the eye contact is important. And then, try to be a little bit mindful of your facial expressions. If someone shares something that you find shocking, it would be better not to drop your jaw. But just to be slightly mindful of what’s coming through your facial expressions and to stay neutral when you can, express compassion. Just those little things, really doing the work to be present to the person, to be looking at them, to be listening, to be doing your best to put aside thoughts of yourself and distractions about yourself that come up.

Yeah, it’s interesting because there’s almost this nuance of being self aware because -- know who you are, know what your face looks like, does your face look warm and inviting, but also not be self-focused because you don’t want to be hyper-focused on yourself. You really want to be focused on the person in front of you. There’s a little bit of a nuance there where you want to be aware of both.

ANN: You do want to be aware of what’s going on within yourself because youre also listening to the Holy Spirit. We were talking earlier about how it’s really an art to be able to listen to someone well and an art requires practice and failure.

JENN: That word practice gave me such encouragement because I’m like, okay, I don’t have to have it totally figured out right now and I can learn and grow in this area. Which I’m really glad; I actually had a bad experience a couple years ago. I was praying for someone; I thought I was trying to redirect them in their story. I sort of thought they were circling around their story and thought they were focusing on their story and not their response to their story, and I saw this happen. I physically saw this happen. I tried to rediredt. I think I asked a question like, What was your response to this situation? And I physically could see the response in this person almost like a wall going up. And we continued on in the process and when we got to prayer and I said something like, “I noticed something changed as you were sharing.” And the person told me. They gave me feedback saying like, “I felt really unheard when you did that.” And so it was really an opportunity for learning for me to be self-aware of my stuff, like I’m that administrative, busy, rushing through things, and had I rushed her too much? Because redirection is important in an Unbound session. So let me ask you, Ann, how would you redirect someone if they’re going down a rabbit trail they don’t need to head down but in a way that still is engaging and actively listening to them?

ANN: That’s such a great question and it comes back to the question of it’s an art, listening. Because you want to give that balance. People need to tell their story.  It must happen. Someone needs to hear what they’ve been through and they need to loved through that. And I often err on the side of letting people talk too long and I struggle to redirect. Sometimes my sessions go too long because I’m so slow to do that. See – different ways to do Unbound.

If someone is stuck telling the circumstances and they keep rehashing it, if you’re engaged with them, you can reflect back to them. “Wow, that must have been really difficult. Sounds like that was really painful for you.” And that’s just part of having your focus on them, your compassionate gaze on them. “I’m so sorry that happened to you.” That’s a phrase I use all the time. When they’ve told their story and received that validation of their experience, then you can move to: ”That must have been really difficult. I’m so sorry that happened to you…How do you think you responded to that?” It’s a little bit more of a gentle redirection. I can’t give you a list –maybe someone else can—but I can’t give you the list like, “These are the five signs that it’s time to turn to redirection.” It’s just trusting the Holy Spirit to help you listen and just loving the person. Seeing the person before you and loving them with the love of Jesus.

JENN: I’m going to put you on the spot Ann. Have you ever had a time when you felt really listened to, and what happened there?

ANN: Yes, one of the most recent ones happened about a year ago. I was going with my husband to his therapist; we were having a little joint session. We were having a little trouble with something and I was burying my response to it; and the therapist looked at me and just said something like, “That must have been really hard for you.” 

It just cracked me open and I was like, “Yeah that was hard.” Did all the cries but was able to put it out there, to acknowledge it because of this person’s compassionate gaze. And from there move forward and not be stuck in my response to that circumstance, which was less than stellar. But to have someone say ‘That experience was really difficult and I see you in it; I see that it was really hard’ and it was really transformative and allowed me to move into an experience of forgiveness, and freedom and deeper healing.

JENN: That’s awesome, which leads to that area of “What happens when someone is listened to?” It provides space and room, as you suggested, for someone to crack open and for the Lord to work.

ANN: It makes me think of the story of the road to Emmaus. The disciples are walking along and they’ve just been through something horrific. This man that they thought was going to be the Messiah, the Savior, he’s dead as far as they know. He’s dead. And Jesus comes alongside them and asks them what’s going on and they get to tell their story. They get to tell what was going on and how all Jerusalem was agog about it. And Jesus listened to them; he heard their story and then he was able to break them out of that small story with the actual facts that they were in the midst of the crux, the very center, of the big story. ‘As a matter of fact, Jesus is not dead… by the way!’ (laughter) And then speak to them in such a way that their hearts burned within them. I love that story. It’s such a great picture of one of the things that happens in an Unbound session. We come alongside them, we walk along, we listen to the story, the crisis, the story – whatever’s going on right now--but then we have the bigger picture. The truth. Jesus us risen and is going to lead you into resurrection.

JENN: I love this story so much. I got so excited about it when Ann mentioned it before we were recording. Because even now as you’re sharing it, Ann, it’s like, “Jesus is right there—He’s right there!” Even in our really difficult circumstances, Jesus is right there. I just love that. It’s so awesome.

ANN: And He sees how it all fits. He explained, opened the scriptures to them so that they could see, “Oh, this had to come about. Resurrection could not happen without crucifixion. I just love that.

JENN: I just love that story of Jesus on the road to Emmaus. It’s interesting to think about, “What would have happened if Jesus had judged them or hadn’t listened to them in the way we’re discussing today?” What do you think would have happened, Ann?

ANN: It’s hard to think about-- “Judgy Jesus,” (laughter) but when we respond in judgment, it activates shame in people. Your example was a little different because she shut down in lack of trust. But our judgment can cause shame to rise up in people or cause them to not trust us, like: “Oh, this is not a safe place. I can’t tell my story or be open here. That just closes off hearing anything of the truth and they get stuck in their small story. And the      The irony of it is that when we respond out of judgment or fear, we’re also stuk in their small story. I’m in an Unbound session to help people grab hold of faith, that  god is able to handle this and he has handlesd ti and to pull us both out of that small story into the bigger story. God loves you. He is with you. He has a good plan. There’s this great quote from Pope Francis from one of the documents, Evangelii Gaudium.  “Spiritual accompaniment must lead others closer to God. To accompany them would be counterproductive if it became a sort of therapy supporting their self-absorption and cease to be a pilgrimage with Christ to the Father. That’s such a great description of an Unbound session. ‘We’re on pilgrimage. I’m coming alongside you. In Christ, we’re going to go to the Father’s house and because I can see where we’re headed, I can see how we’re going to get there because the Holy Spirit is with us.

JENN: And Jesus is such an incredible model. We talked about the story on the road to Emmaus. I also was thinking in prepping for this podcast about the story of blind Bartimaeus and how Jesus models for us – he’s looking at Bartimaeus and he doesn’t say, “You should do this and this.” He says, “What do you want? And he really makes it about Bartimaeus, like he is really looking at Bartimaeus.  So Jesus really models an accompaniment for us and of course he leads us to the father, every time.

ANN: Of course. Every time. No judgy Jesus here. (laughter) We’re grateful.

JENN: So Ann just as we’re heading into a close right now, what would you want today’s listeners to take away from today’s podcast about listening?

ANN: Just giving the person your full attention, having that compassionate gaze of Jesus. And what that really boils down to is knowing your own soul, knowing and having received for yourself the great mercy of God because when you know how much you’ve been forgiven, it’s so easy to love others and not judge them. And knowing that not only does Jesus have the person to bring that person to the father out of their small story into the big story, but that is what He is about.  That’s what He wants to do and what He is doing.  And we have the great privilege of joining Him in that.

JENN: I love that. That’s so good. Thanks, Ann. Could you just take a moment and close us in prayer? 

ANN: Lord Jesus, we are so grateful that you gave it all on the cross so that you could rescue all of us from all of it. Thank you that your mercy knows no bounds. Lord, I ask you right now that you would release the grace of conversion and the grace of your compassionate gaze from anyone listening who is trapped in shame, or fear or judgment. Thank you that you always, without fail, lead us to the father. Thank you for giving us the gift of Your holy spirit. Thank you, Lord, for your great love. In Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.

JENN: Thanks again Ann for joining us today with so much wisdom and depth. So good. Listeners, I hope you got as much as I did out of today’s podcast. I feel like it’s such a gift to listen in an Unbound session, but it’s a gift and a tool that you can take with you into every relationship, so hopefully you were able to receive a little bit of that today. By the time this podcast drops, we have a couple things going on. This week, Matt is actually at a Kairos event in Rome, so you can keep him in prayer as he is hanging out in Rome with some amazing people. And next weekend, I believe it’s November 11th, Matt and Jacqueline will be doing a one-day conference in San Francisco, which we’re really excited about. Registration for that is still open, so you can head over to our website and our events page and we’ll link it in the show notes.  If you know someone on the west coast, send them to an Unbound conference because Matt and Jacqueline want to say ‘hi.’ Have a great day; God bless.