Veganuary & Vegan Fried Chick*n with Matthew Glover

In the 6th episode of the Principles of Change podcast, I discuss the growth and impact of Veganuary with its co-founder: Matthew Glover. Matthew has also started Veg Capital and co-founded VFC, Vegan Fried Chick*n and considers himself a business activist, with a strong sense of ethics and justice in his intentions and drive. I hope you enjoy this episode!

In Today's Episode:

• Intro
• Matthew's Background
• How did Veganuary start?
• How does Veganuary work?
• What's Veg Capital?
• What about vegan capitalism?
• The birth of Vegan Fried Chick*n (VFC)
• Matthew's Principles of Change

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Transcript

Intro

MIC1 0:00

and then we're trying to maintain this activisty, style. So I've been in factory farms and done filming, and that is part of our marketing strategy to educate people. There's not many food brands are going on covering factory farms. but it's something that this is an extension of.

MIC2 0:18

of

MIC1 0:19

Who I am and who we are as a company. so we see ourselves as an activist brand that happens to sell food.

MIC2 0:27

That was Matthew Glover. And this is the principles of change podcast. My name is Sarah. Alex. And I'm the host of this show. I'm an animal rights activist, lecture and author of the ebook, what animal rights are logic meat, which you can download in 20 languages for free on my website. alex.org. The aim of this show is to motivate you to get more active and find in what way you can each personally make this world a better place. Through my past seven years of activism journey, I realized that a lot of people at sometimes friends felt very limited in what they can do in order to help other animals, environmental protection, or other social issues. And in my own journey of learning from other activists, I realized that so many amazing game-changers have found countless creative ways to make this for the better place. I invite these amazing individuals and chat about what they do, their journeys, tactics, and advice. My goal is to finish each episode by making you realize the incredible power of the individual and remind you that there is no one perfect way of activism. Finally, if you wish to support this podcast. I would really share it. If you can subscribe and leave a review. And if you'd like to support it directly and have access to early and exclusive episodes, please make sure to check the Patrion link provided below. Today's guest is Matthew Glover. Matthew is the co-founder of January and a vegan fried chicken, also known as VFC after 17 years of working in the window and door industry, his priorities and focus changed when he became vegan in 2011. Matthew used his business and marketing skills to launch the began their campaign in 2014, with his partner chain at stay he's active in so many more ways, always pushing his limits with the intention of achieving a vegan world as soon as possible. I won't tell you more. As we talked in detail about everything he does in the episode. Thank you for joining please don't forget to subscribe or follow this podcast i won't make you wait any longer i'll see you on the other side Matthew, thank you so much for making time for this. I really appreciate it. Have you been,

Matthew's Background

MIC1 2:23

Yeah, I'm good. Thank you. And I'm really honored to be on your podcast. I'm an admirer of your work and looking forward to the conversation.

MIC2 2:29

you. Um, so for the listeners or people who are watching on YouTube, uh, who don't know who you are, can you please give us a short background?

MIC1 2:38

Uh, so I, I, I call myself a business activist. Um, um, I've been doing three main things. One is, uh, launching vegan Yuri, the vegan January campaign. Um, and then more recently. I've got involved in venture capital, investing in plant-based vegan, uh, promising startups, challenger brands. And then I've also more recently been a co-founder, uh, I'm working on a, uh, business called VFC, uh, which is vegan fried chicken. Um, and, uh, yeah, so that's, I mean the startup fees as well. So I've been quite busy on those three main projects.

MIC2 3:21

Yeah. Well I, myself and I know from my followers and specialist subscribers on YouTube, uh, I'm quite aware of what you're doing with VFC since we made that video as well with the comments and we'll get to that. I'm really excited to speak about that. Um, could you please share with us how you ended up starting with the idea with January? How long ago was it and what made you decide? Maybe I should give this a try and see what happens.

MIC1 3:47

Okay, well, um, I mean, I, I guess it comes back to going vegan, uh, originally. So, um, I, I was a late starter. It wasn't until I was 39, I think before I made the switch to being vegan, I'd been a vegetarian for 10 years prior to that, but I didn't really think about animals so much. I was busy working on my career. Um, and, uh, I actually, in my twenties and thirties, wasn't the nicest person. I was focused on being rich, being a millionaire, um, you know, and, uh, you know, earning money to, you know, buy things and, uh, you know, be a success and all of that ego

MIC2 4:30

driven

MIC1 4:31

stuff. But I, I guess I went through a bit of a midlife crisis in my thirties and started questioning a lot more things, started to care about the environment more, and then. Yeah. When I was about 10 years ago, um, I stumbled across a video and it was the video of the meat industry. Doesn't want you to see, um, a bit of a click-bait style of, of avert, uh, but it, um, made me click on it to, to find out. And, uh, yeah, I was just really shocked by the scenes of cruelty in the egg and the dairy industry. Um, so overnight I went vegan. It was just as simple as that. I didn't know any of the vegans. Um, uh don't I don't think I even really knew what one was to be honest, but I just knew that I couldn't support those industries, um, anymore. So that was it. And then I went on a journey of discovery, um, started researching.

MIC2 5:28

uh,

MIC1 5:29

Watched earthlings, um, Gary speech. um, the usual things, I guess, when people are looking around and, uh, I, I found, uh, while the concept of speciesism was something I'd never thought about, but, um, made a lot of sense to me. And I found that there was a guy making a movie called speciesism, the movie, mark DeVries, and I contacted him. And, uh, uh, we, we chatted about on email and he said, oh, I'm launching the film at the animal rights conference in Washington, DC. And I was like, there's an animal rights conference. Wow.

MIC2 6:09

other people like me.

MIC1 6:12

So I thought, you know, I was selling windows and doors for a living at that point in time, but I thought, well, I'm just going to jump on an airplane and golf and find out what this is all about. And.

MIC2 6:22

uh,

MIC1 6:23

It was life-changing really going to that conference and meeting other people that cared so much. And, uh, yeah, so I started asking people, you know, what should I do for, for the animals? And they, a lot of people said, well, what are you good at? And I was like, well, I'm pretty good at sales and marketing and starting businesses, that type of thing. And they said, well, you should do sales and marketing and that type of thing for the animals. And I was like, oh, okay. Um, so I guess that's where it started. And then, um, trying to figure out what would be the best sales and marketing type thing that I could do. First thing I tried was, um, set up a vegan Facebook type platform called bleat. Um, it wasn't a success, uh, uh, and, uh, but then came up around about, well, while that bleach was happening, With this vegan January idea, and me and my wife started talking about it. And, uh, I'd taken part in a campaign called November where you grow a mustache for the month of November. And so we started saying, well, could we do something that's got that same sort of vibe and bars that gets mass participation. A lot of people taking part. Um, and you know, we talked about, uh, doing a vegan month. We did a few people said, maybe you should do vegetarian. Cause that's like easier for people to do. But because we felt so passionately about the cars, we just couldn't really do the vegetarian month. So we decided to go for vegan. I think it was the right thing because, um, the media picked up on it because particularly 10 years ago, it seems like such an extreme thing to ask people to do, to go vegan for a month. Whereas vegetarian would have been a bit more and that's easy enough to do so. And then we started thinking about what month it should be.

MIC2 8:21

be.

MIC1 8:23

And, uh, January seemed obvious towards because of new year's resolutions and, uh, you know, people have eaten too much food at Christmas and all of that. So that was it. We just working from home, funded it ourselves, um, and, uh, built a website and launched it. And it did quite well. did really well. I mean, we had to, Jane Jane's target was if we could get a hundred people in that first year to do it, and I was a bit more optimistic being the sales guy. And I was like, no, I think we can get a thousand. And it was 3,300. So,

MIC2 9:00

first month,

MIC1 9:01

first year that we did it in January. Yeah. yeah. And people around the world took part. It was mostly UK, but we had people in the U S and Australia and Canada and all the places as well. So.

MIC2 9:13

um,

MIC1 9:14

Yeah. So w then in February it was like, okay, well maybe this is a thing now that we can do every, every January. So we started then working on the next campaign that, you know, the pilot scheme had worked effectively. So, so that's how it started. And it's been, uh, an amazing, um, difficult, tiring, um, emotionally challenging, uh, time ever sentence book, hugely rewarding as well. And, uh, Jean and I are very sort of, uh, pleased and proud of how it's developed over the years.

MIC2 9:48

That's amazing. And do you know the numbers from the recent years I'm interested in knowing what's the numbers, obviously when he started first got 3,300, what's the latest number that you remember from recent years? Yeah, so,

MIC1 10:04

Uh, it was 625,000 this year. Um, that's around the world now that we S we start counting from February the first around to January the 31st, because people do sign up, um, in the other 11 months that being said, most people still do. it. Um, it signed up in December, um, on the early part of January, that's really our peak sort of, uh, time. Um, I mean, we, in the early years we were doubling every year. We went from 3,300, 12,800 to 25,000 to 50,000 that we're covering with the exact figures. And I did work out that if we carried on doubling, um, every year, would that exponential growth by 2028, everybody in the world will be doing for January, but yeah, that's the sales guy in me. Um, but, uh, Yeah, it's going to be more difficult to keep, to keep growing at that side of rating. So we were 580,000 roughly last year. And then this year it was 625,000. So it's going to be, what we don't want is a down year because we do worry that that might, um, you know, the media might pick up on that and sell veganism is peaked because vegan is peaked. So we feel under pressure to keep growing every year. Um, and we've got a team, a really great team now it's, um, rearra Berg, she's our CEO. She's based in Berlin. It's a fully female senior leadership team and they are doing amazing things that really are, and we're building the team out. I think there's about 30 members of staff now.

MIC2 11:47

That's amazing.

MIC1 11:48

Yeah, it is. And, and me and Jane have now trustees. Um, so I'm chair of the board. Uh, Jane sits with me on the board with seven other individuals with a broad range of different skills of Eagan trustees, obviously. Um, and we provide, I guess, that, uh, bigger picture guidance to, to Rhea as the CEO. Um, but operationally I'm not involved. I couldn't be, I've got too many other things these days on, but, um, yeah, that, that's roughly where we are.

MIC2 12:20

All right. Now, one thing I want to talk about, uh, is, uh, how we. Or at least a lot of vegans might consider Vigenere effecting people. Uh, you know, obviously when we say let's go vegan for a month, people might say, or someone can bring up the question why for a month, if it's an ethical stance, why don't you just take the stance and move on with your life? Um, how do you see that? And, and what would you say is your argument why this is something that we can or should do?

MIC1 12:52

Um, so we say, try vegan this January. Um, we're asking people to take a pledge to, to do it for the month. Um, we also have quite often joked, it's a bit of a trick really, because we know that there's going to be a high proportion of those people that are going to give it a go for a month with no intention of staying vegan. And then when they realize actually the food's good, they're feeling better, they've got more energy, um, that they, they stick with it. So many people I've heard that story so many times. So people that would never have gone vegan and going vegan because of began URI. I would also say that as a campaign and as an organization, we try very hard in late January to keep people to stick with it. Um, You know, so in the early part of the email series, it's a lot of practical help, you know, how to read labels. Um, here's some recipes, um, where to find food and that type of information towards the end of January, we start really talking about the why. Um, and you know, that's deliberate really because we're trying to keep as many of those people taking part to stick with it. So, um, and we find that that sort of not judgmental, not preachy, give it a go we'll hold your hand as much as we can. We'll give you all the support, um, tends to work. And when we do the surveys in February, so everybody that takes part gets the opportunity to, to.

MIC2 14:32

um,

MIC1 14:33

To give us feedback and we find that high proportion of, of those, um, stick to a vegan, or at least, um, say they're going to say vegan. Um, and then of the people that are not staying vegan, nearly all of them say that they've, um, firstly enjoyed the experience. And secondly, they've learnt a lot and the more likely to reduce their consumption. So I think if began URI, particularly in the UK has helped create more flexitarians now I appreciate some, uh, activists might feel that well, we don't want more. Flexitarians we're more vegans and I agree, of course we all want that. Um, There's advantages to creating more flexitarians in terms of this is then a bigger market for vegan Browns, for restaurants to have more options. So I just think there's more nuance to that question. Um, and, uh, I think certainly in the UK, I think the impact of vegan URI, um, there, it's hard on the food scene is, has been amazing.

MIC2 15:43

That's really great. I really agree with the idea that, um, yeah, ideally we all want everyone to be vegan, but flexitarians are a customer based that companies make vegan products for the vegan population is not enough for companies to say, let's make a product for vegans. It's more like let's make a product for flexitarians. And, and I brought, I reached out to many businesses to ask these questions, like, did you add the vegan option? Because you think there's a lot of vegans, you know, they all say no it's because peop flexitarians the usual customers also asked for vegan options. So obviously that creates a demand. The demand creates a supply and then more people realize, okay, there's more supply now. It's probably easy to be vegan and give it a try. Um, I just want to mention just for the sake of the possibility of someone listening or watching this who doesn't know about beginner and how it functions and that it is, uh, it is a 100%. Subscription that they're doing. So they're not paying anything to get all the help, all the suggestions or the device it's 100% free and there's no strings attached. You know, there's not like a trial version where then they're going to take your credit card number or anything. Um, and I think that's really great because a lot of people just don't have the information and don't probably have the financial ability to pay, to get the information.

MIC1 17:01

Yeah. When I first had the idea, um, the Movember campaign that I mentioned, uh, people sign up and they raise money for charity. And my initial idea was people sign up and raise money for animal charities,

MIC2 17:14

for example.

Veg Capital

MIC1 17:15

But when we tested that we made it optional, very few people were going for it. And we felt that that might be a barrier for people taking part. And again, when it comes to charging people, irrespective of the charitable aspect, we just don't want to put any barriers in place. Um, so we do ask people when they sign up to make a donation, uh, afterwards, um, it's a low response rate. I mean, it's like maybe one or 2% of people actually do make a donation, but we are effectively a charity. We rely on those donations to be able to do the work. And, uh, uh, so, but now people, people could sign up for free. And also one thing to say is you don't have to do it in January. You can sign up today. Um, and you would still get that like 31 days of emails and support. Um, so yeah, cause that's another criticism that we sometimes get is, you know, why wait for January, do it now? And like, well, we, we, we cover that as well. Um, and, uh, yeah, so

MIC2 18:22

That's great. Um, so anyone who's listening or watching this, if you're considering doing it, don't need to wait for, for January. Just go ahead and do it now and get all the support and help that's needed. Now I want to know what happened between, uh, then and now you mentioned venture capital earlier. Can you please talk to us about that for a bit?

MIC1 18:45

Yeah, so I spent about eight or nine years, um, doing, working on vegan Euro, but also, um, being involved in, in my businesses. Uh, I've been involved with two, one was making windows and doors and another one was running a show, a trade show, uh, an event, uh, for the window and door industry. But my heart wasn't in either of those businesses. So I exited the first, the window business about eight, nine years ago. And then I exited, um, the event company about four years ago, which actually ended up being really good timing with COVID.

MIC2 19:23

time.

MIC1 19:24

I didn't know that at the time. Yeah. And so I had a bit more free time, ultimately I'm, uh, I've always been since the age of 21, a businessman I've never really worked for anybody else. My last job was delivering pizzas, um, back at university, uh, ever since then, I've been sort of doing my own thing. So, um, and I was aware that there was a growing scene of exciting. Challenger brands in the vegan space. And, but that didn't seem to be a great deal of funding available in the UK, in Europe at the time, this was like three years ago. Um, whereas there's, there was a couple of great VC funds that was aware of in the U S wouldn't called new crop capital and one called veggie invest. Um, so I started talking to some mission aligned investors about, uh, forming a, a VC fund venture capital fund in the UK. So we set it up, um, as a nonprofit. Um, so any profits that we ever make in the future we'll get, um, donated to diet change, uh, an effective animal protection or animal rights causes if you like. Um, we haven't made any profits yet. Um, because we were still in that making the investment stage, um, Yeah. So in the last two, two and a half years, I've been incredibly busy. We've invested in 26 companies. So roughly one a month, it hasn't worked out exactly like that. But, um, and, uh, we're focused on removing animals from the food system. Um, so that would mean that it's mostly, uh, meat, alternatives, dairy, eggs, and fish. We also look at anything that is center of plate. So for example, a pizza, uh, full ready meal, uh, pies, and Kesha's that type of thing, uh, we've invested in. And, uh, that means, I mean, what I've found is that it can be very difficult because we, we get some amazing passionate entrepreneurs that approach us for funding. And they've got great businesses and great ideas, but it doesn't necessarily fit that main metric, which is moving animals from the food system. So for example, if somebody comes to us with, uh, a granola bar, Um, that's vegan and it's great Browns and everything, but we would look at it and think, well, who are you competing with? The existing granola bars are already mostly vegan or vegetarian. So we don't see a great opportunity by investing in that product, uh, to be able to, to help with the bigger mission, which is trying to close down these horrible factory farms and animal agriculture for good. So we've got to make decisions on that basis first and foremost. And then we look at, um, if, if it ticks that box as an opportunity, then we start looking at the wider business opportunity. Is it a good founding team? Um, do they have a good strategy? You know, um, what's the IP, um, is it defendable. Um, what's the marketing strategy, you know what the advisor's like all of that sort of stuff and what the valuation is on the business. And, uh, so it's, you know, then it becomes a negotiation at that point. So yeah, we've invested in 26 companies so far, and our usual ticket price is between 50,000 pounds Sterling and 250,000 pounds Sterling. Um, and it tends to be early stage. So it's it's founders that are just at that maybe early idea stage of, you know, they've got a little bit of traction, the started to sell off their website, but they need capital to hire more people, um, invest in marketing, maybe invest more in the technology, whatever it is. So we look at all of that. Um, And I mean, it's a really amazing space and the last two or three years, um, I don't know if you're familiar with this, uh, sector, but there's a huge amount of money coming into uh, plant plant-based food as well as precision fermentation and cultivated, um, lab grown meat. Yeah. Um, love grown is the wrong word, but just for ease of explaining it to the audience. Um, so yeah, it's been, it's been, um, really eye-opening and to be able to spend time with amazing founders are passionate about the cause as much as we are,

MIC2 24:07

Of course. And would you consider also doing that for, let's say a startup that wants to tackle something else that's related to animal agriculture. Let's say the leather industry, someone comes up with an idea that basically is a competition for that. Would that be something that should be considered in?

MIC1 24:24

Yeah. Um, so it's always about removing the greatest number of animals from the food system. So we tended to focus on food because the estimates are 99% of animals that are exploited after food. Um, I think leather would be the, uh, the main material that we would look at, but we haven't made any investments so far. We've had a few where it's been companies that are selling, for example, vegan, leather, handbags. Um, but I think we would want to go to the makers of the vegan leather itself rather than the people that are making that, the handbag that, as an example,

MIC2 25:00

Okay, So when you mentioned, um, that obviously in the recent years, there's been a lot of money going into this industry and the new plant-based products that are taking the place of animal-based products. Uh, I want to talk about beyond meat because, uh, I'm in a small Facebook group with a couple of friends.

MIC1 25:18

uh,

MIC2 25:19

Some of them are really into crypto. So they just always like post stuff about crypto. And recently someone wrote, if anybody wants to buy beyond stocks, they're like$48 now or something which is lower than I think if I'm not mistaken, lower than what it was when it was first, um, when they first went public and then went up to more than$200 and the average, I think it was a hundred and something, and now it's all the way down to 40 something. Um, do you have any idea what could be the reason for that? Is it the political situation with what's going on between Russia and Ukraine? Or is there an actual fear from investors? One person wrote that is because a lot of stocks that are bought in this industry when it comes to plant base companies are short stocks because no one believes that it's going to work. So whenever they have a new deal, for example, with KFC instead of the. Going up, it goes down because people are selling their shorts. Cause they're like, oh, it turns out to be good. So I don't want to lose more money. I'm going to get rid of it. Now, do you know anything about this that you could share?

MIC1 26:26

Yeah. Well, I'm not an expert on this. Um,

MIC2 26:28

This is not financial advice.

Vegan Capitalism

MIC1 26:32

um, I mean it is a concern. It's not just beyond me, only as their stock prices, uh, declined quite a bit since the peak. And also there's been a few plum based companies that have, uh, floated on the Canadian stock market that are also, um, You know, the share price is lower than, you know, it was previously. And this is despite a lot of the stock market's been, you know, pretty high over the last 12 months. I know we've with Ukraine, it's taken a hit recently, but, um, quite high. I mean, look, I, I would say that, um, there was probably a little bit too much excitement around beyond me and Oatley when they first, um, when the IPO was first happened. So, you know, may be that the stock price was too high at that point. And now it's finding a, a better level. Um, I think it is also worth saying there is an increasing amount of competition. I mean, if you've got a lot of the categories are growing at, let's say 10% a year, which is amazing and that's really good growth compared to other sectors. If there's a hundred percent more, um, competition that comes into the market, but the market is only growing at 10%. And even though the market's doing extremely well, uh, there's going to be some, some struggle companies that are going to struggle to be able to compete. So I think that is, uh, potentially happening as well. And the huge amount of money that I'm seeing coming into, um, plant-based food companies at the moment is probably only going to get even tougher to, um, to compete in, you know, in the coming years, um, which is why we need to, it's not just demand and supply. I mean, I, with Vigenere, I've been working on the demand mum's side of things. How do you create more people interested in eating vegan food on a regular basis? And then I switched to work on the supply side with investing through venture capital, um, But we can't forget that, you know, that's why, what y'all doing. And so many other activists are so important. And one thing I would say is a lot of the vegan food business to such as, um, beyond me and elderly have benefited from free marketing, from amazing activists like yourself and all the others listening, um, because they're driving up the demand for their products. Um, so I would like to, you know, I would love it if more of the vegan food businesses, if they've got spare capital to invest in the activism side of it, because it's a self fulfilling prophecy, isn't it, it's a virtuous circle.

MIC2 29:17

I was wondering when it comes to venture capital, if somebody has an idea that say one day, they want to start something that they have to be based in the UK to apply.

MIC1 29:26

No, we've, we've invested in, uh, Scandinavia, Germany, France, Brazil, um, one in the us. And we're looking at opportunities in, in other parts of the world. I'm actually, uh, working, uh, on another fund, which will be, um, a more traditional venture capital fund with other investors. Um, budge capital will be one of the, um, um, shareholders, if you like the GPS in this new structure. And we will continue to be non-profit, but w but we will be, uh, encouraging other investors to come in and they will be looking for a return on their investment. Um, and the reason I'm mentioning all of this is because we're going to open it up to potentially, uh, more investments in developing countries. So Latin America, Africa. Um, Asia Pacific region Australia, um, where there isn't any plant-based VC funds there. Um, so looking at areas outside of where we have been working traditionally with the, in the UK, in Europe, predominantly with, with what we've been doing,

MIC2 30:39

now, I have a question. My start a very long conversation. Um, I, I,

MIC1 30:46

we got,

MIC2 30:47

I thought about this just, um, two days ago I gave a lecture in the Netherlands and someone raised their hand during the Q and a session and they asked them, how do you feel about capitalism? And do you think capitalism can help or be more of an obstacle when it comes to changing the food system to a plan plant-based food system. Now I'm going to share what I said. Afterwards, we had a longer conversation. What I said is that, first of all, I am not educated enough to know. Um, I don't like the idea of, um, exponential growth without checking at what cost it's coming. I, of course, don't like the idea of exploitation of any workers, but I also said that I can imagine. That capitalism played a role in, uh, creating accessible plant-based products. For example, I'm not sure how much these products would cost if it wasn't for capitalism, if someone was trying to enter the market, of course, I also know that there's not a single political system at the moment or throughout history that hasn't exploited animals. So it's not like it's something that is inherently true to capitalism alone. Uh, and then we talked about it later on, um, and they said it's because of the capitalist system, what happens is the amount of power that these companies have in the animal agriculture industry has, uh, when they see certain, uh, industry growing and stuff, they use that power and the money that they have to try to suppress it. Now, I personally believe that there are ways around that specifically when it comes to the same companies, realizing that the future is better off plant-based. So they're even investing in it. Uh, I don't like the fact that they were, they're still making money off of it. Profiting of animal exploitation as well. Um, but I definitely acknowledge that some people would not have had access to plant-based foods if it wasn't for capitalism. Uh, but yeah, I wanted to know what you think about that.

MIC1 32:42

I mean, it is a topic that we could talk about for ages and look, uh, also I'm not an intellectual I'm, I'm somebody that's, um, trained in the university of life. Really now. I'm just somebody that gets on and does things, um, without overthinking, um, things, um, T to answer your question. I would recommend people go and look at a video that's online. Um, cause I gave a talk, which sort of answers this question and the talk was a bit provocative, um, which was why Unilever KFC and McDonald's are not the enemy. And I gave that talk to a room of a hundred vegans and I was a bit worried about how it would go down. Um, and I think a lot of people were skeptical and I first stood up. Um, but my, my view is that, um, the way the system is right now is all of the cards are in the favor of these big conglomerates.

MIC2 33:45

Um,

MIC1 33:47

we cannot, we cannot achieve what we want to achieve without getting these companies on board. Um, you know, these, these powerful businesses have got all the talent. Um, they've got the marketing budgets, they've got the infrastructure, they've got the relationships with the supermarkets, with the restaurants. Um, so we're gonna get to where we want to quicker getting those businesses to become kind of capitalists, um, than we are starting necessarily from scratch, um, and setting up small businesses. And that, you know, I know we're going to talk about VFC as well, but it's really difficult starting a business from scratch, um, and, you know, building it to to the sort of scale that Unilever and Nestle and Tyson foods and McDonald's and what have you already have. So, and in that talk, I gave one example and I talked about don't own the French, uh, big dairy company. Now they acquired. Uh, Whiteway foods, I think in about to 2018, and the brands are silk in the U S and I'll pro in the UK in Europe. Now I'm just trying to imagine myself being in the boardroom of Danone when you've got a business that is in traditional dairy, in other words, exploiting animals. Um, and you've also got your foot in the camp of based. And if you've got the dairy side of your business, that's maybe flat lining or declining year on year, and you've got your plant based side of your business that is, um, you know, growing at 10% a year, where would you be putting your future investment? You know, to me it's yeah. So, you know, I don't look at it and think, well, if I'm buying out.

MIC2 35:53

pro,

VFC: Vegan Fried Chicken

MIC1 35:53

That money is going towards exploiting cows. I look at it the opposite way around. I look at it in a more optimistic viewpoint on it. So I think we need to infiltrate these organizations. Let me give you another example. Um, there was a friend of mine's daughter took part in Vigo Newberry, one of the early ones, maybe 2015, 2016, something like that. And, uh, she stayed vegan afterwards, but she worked for marks and Spencers. Hmm. She had a meeting with me afterwards and she was at food technologist, uh, developing, uh, recipes. So as part of her role, she had to put meat in her mouth didn't necessarily have to swallow it, but you've got to sort of through her job role having to put meat in a mouth and she was really struggling with this. She, so she was asking my advice, you know, what about, um, how do I get myself a job in a plant-based food staff? And at that point in time, there wasn't that many options. And I said to her, look, you know, you can make such a much bigger impact staying at marks and Spencers and info influencing that company to develop more products. Anyway, a few years later, she was part of the team that, that launched plum kitchen, which is a whole range of different plant-based options that are now available as sort of an open label to marks and Spencers.

MIC2 37:23

So,

MIC1 37:26

You know, I've not spoken to a sentence, but I do think of that conversation that I had with her and how it might feel unpleasant being in that setup, but the opportunity to, uh, for animals by staying there and influencing is, is potentially better than anything.

MIC2 37:44

Yeah, that's true. I mean, I thought about it as well. If, if we were to, um, find a better, um, political system that, uh, we believe we should switch to, um, which one would, which one created. Um, reduction of suffering as fast as possible, changing it within this system or changing the whole system and then trying to introduce veganism. I think I'm pretty sure that waiting for veganism to be as widespread as possible, um, would take much more time if you first have to convince everyone to change the capitalist system, which in my, I believe realistic, not negative opinion. So some of my friends tell me I'm too negative. I say I'm just realistic. I just don't think we're at a point where we were able to change the systems anymore. I think they have way too much power. Um, and that might be my Lebanese side. Um, talking out of experience, you know, living in Lebanon, I always wanted to help change Lebanon until I realized every single political party has a militia and you are a peaceful protests. Does that, even if you're armed, there's nothing you can do against them. Um, so I do believe that personally and maybe I'm wrong, but they do believe that it will be faster to create, um, reduction of suffering when it comes to these animals and exploitation, um, in a capitalist system. And then maybe one day that will change as well. Um, so let's talk about VFC cause that's that, uh, the, I think that timeline is really interesting because you did go from, uh, creating the demand, working on the demand of the cannery then to creating, um, well, the vetch capital to work on the supply and then also supplying yourself. So, um, creating VFC. Putting that option out there. Uh, there's a lot of things that I want to talk about at VFC cause I, I still haven't tried it. I arrived there last night. I already went to one, um, Tesco's to check if they have, but it was a small one, so they didn't have any, um, but I think I'm going to try to get some on the way back now since it's still, uh, early. And, um, yeah, let's get to it. Please tell us more about, uh VFC.

MIC1 39:59

Yeah, well actually, um, I sort of fell into that project really. Um, well, um, and it's, it came via as a result of COVID and the pandemic, uh, I guess

MIC2 40:13

let's

MIC1 40:13

to step back a little bit, I spent two years meeting founders with really inspiring ideas and as somebody that's naturally, uh, entrepreneurial, um, he started to scratch an itch for me that wouldn't it be nice, wouldn't it be nice to do something myself? Um, and then how it came about was there's a restaurant in New York that me and Jane, my wife had been, um, going in regularly for a few years and it was a half meat restaurant and half vegetarian, vegan and superfoods, but the menu was gradually moving more towards vegan, vegetarian, um, and, uh, on one occasion we were in there and, uh, The, the owner, um, front of house, Katie, she came over and she said, I understand you to a vegan royalty. Um, so somebody said all the vegan URI founders sat at that table over there. So yeah, it was a bit embarrassed, awkward book, you know? Um, so then Adam, who is the chef, um, and the owner is, uh, came out and said, hello as well. It's a little bit awkward. Um, but, um, we, uh, we, we start, we continued going in and, uh, Adam and Katie would always say hello. And, uh, if Adam was, uh, you know, uh, got all his food out, he'd come and sit down and have a chat with us and I'd promote, began URI to him. And he ended up doing vegan URI, uh, about to three, two and a half years ago, uh, 2.2 years ago or whatever. Um, and, uh, so, and he was just really interested in this whole space. Um, and.

MIC2 42:00

then

MIC1 42:03

Lockdown happened. And I was concerned for him because it was our favorite restaurant in New York. Um, so I sent him a message. I said, why don't we just have a zoom call? And, uh, so we just had a chat. I wasn't expecting anything from it. And there's a particular dish that they had on the menu called vegan fried chicken. It came with chips, barbecue sauce, coleslaw. And I was just moaning to him saying, you know, I really miss, you know, the vegan fried chicken. And he said, a T what Matthew, why don't I cook some at home? So I've got nothing to do, you know, the restaurants closed. Um, and, uh, I'll freeze it. I'll send it to you and see what we think. So I got this delivery, I put it in the oven for 20 minutes and, uh, it was just like the food that I'd been in at the restaurant. So, you know, I picked the phone up to Adam and I'm like, how dumb. We need to talk. I think we could sell this stuff, you know, so that's how a lot of, a lot of businesses start in that sort of organics or accidental way. So we then started chatting through the summer of 2020, uh, decided to do it in September. We, um, formed the company. He also turned his restaurant into a production unit. So the restaurant was making, uh, and we were building a stock level up from, through September, October, November. We launched on December the 20th, 2020, our website, and we began as a, uh, direct to consumer brand. Um, and. Yeah. I mean, it went really well. Uh, in those early stages, we got a lot of support from, um, the vegan community, uh, people like Pam based news shatters, and Joey carb strong and, you know, some other, um, sort of influencers in the space as well. Um, so we, we, we were very, very busy that January and shipping orders out to people, but we knew that, um, I mean, my motivation for setting VFC up was, um, because chickens are the most exploited animal on the planet. That's why I was particularly interested in it. You know, I think the figures are somewhere like 75 billion animals per year that are farmed for food. Um, but 69 billion of them are chickens. So it seemed logical for me from an impact perspective as, as being, um, a good area for me to focus my time and effort and. Also, it didn't feel to me that there was so many vegan fried chicken type products that were available in retail and in food service. Um, there was quite a few companies selling it on a local basis. Um, so yeah, we, we, we towed around with what we were going to call it in the early days. We nearly called ourselves rebel kind because we want it to be rebellious, but obviously there's a kindness there as well. Um, and, uh, uh, you know, the team, we just couldn't agree on anything. And then, uh, Adam said, why don't we just call it? VFC cause we, we called in our emails. We said, you know, we shot on vegan fried chicken to VFC all of the time. And it was like, you know, vfc.co.uk is available for us to buy, you know, so I was like, God, why don't we just call it? VFC what great idea. Because the connection between KFC and VFC was so. Clear and obvious, but it still took us a while to work it out ourselves. Um, so yeah, we've now been, um, venture capital is the main investor and is supporting the early stage development of the company. We're bringing on smart people from the food sector, uh, uh, that, um, because me and Adam never really worked in the food and beverage FMCG space, so we're winging it a little

MIC2 46:06

bit.

MIC1 46:07

Um, so we're bringing in people that are a lot more talented than those that have been there and done that. Um, and then we're trying to maintain this activisty, um, style. So I've been in factory farms and, uh, and done filming, and that is part of our marketing strategy to educate people. There's not many food brands are going on covering factory farms. Um, but it's something that this is an extension of.

MIC2 46:34

of

MIC1 46:36

Who I am and, um, uh, and who we are as a company. Um, so we see ourselves as an activist brand that happens to sell food. If you see what I mean, um, and we're going to push the needle as much as we can, but we've been successful so far. Um, Tesco announced, uh, uh, both, uh, stocking our products now and they, they actually liked the activist mentality because we're a little bit different from a lot of the other brands that are, may be a little safer, um, in a communication strategy.

MIC2 47:10

Yeah. Now, one thing that, um, I know I love so far, uh, with VFC is the social media team's response to non vegans attacking the fact that it's called vegan fried chicken or why it tastes like chicken and everything. And I think that really shows, I mean, who you are, of course, this brand, I would, I would assume that it kind of reflects where you are and the ethics that you hold. And many people who might think that, um, if you have worked or came up with the idea of January, that you're not an ethical vegan or something like that, but obviously everything you're doing now speaks for itself. Uh, I think it's, it's, it's really amazing. And I really think it's important for, um, companies, if they want to use the word vegan and, and, and market their products as, as vegan, I think it would be nice, um, for vegan activists to see that, oh, this company. It doesn't take no shit. You know, if, if someone throws the page, no, they take advantage of that situation, reply to the person, educate the person. Um, there's all these really entertaining comments that I read and made a video on as well. A lot of people were like do more of these. The more I know once I start, it can be serious because the social media team doesn't seem to stop with all the, um, all the counterattacks let's say. So I was wondering in what other countries at the moment is VFC available? I know at one point there was a talk about having it in the states. Is that already happening or is it still in the future?

MIC1 48:41

Yeah, so we're already in, in the U S uh, we're available in some university campuses. Um, uh, Cal poly, uh, was the first one. Um, we're in the university of Arizona. MIT we're going there. um, uh, UCLA, um, so we're just in the early stages of, uh, getting supply to, to, to those canteens. Uh, uh, we're also available online in the U S um, so you can buy it from JTFO, which is an online retailer, and we're going in veggie V E J I, um, very shortly as well, but ultimately, how do we get the product into whole foods, Walmart, Costco, you know, these, these big, uh, retailers, because that's where, uh, non vegans are more likely to be, to be shopping. Um, you know, we don't at the moment, our brand is appealing to, to vegans, and I would guess, uh, a high proportion of our customer base are vegan, but that's not the long-term strategy. Our long-term strategy is to. You know, I don't want to sell vegan food to vegans, otherwise I'm not making any difference whatsoever. So it's working out a strategy to how to sell it to the mainstream. So, yeah, we're in the U S what we're going to expo west, which is the big, uh, natural products food show next week. Um, we're hiring currently a GM for the U S we've already got two salespeople there. Um, so we're making, uh, strides in that direction. We're also in other parts of the world, Netherlands, for example, um, is, um, you know, we have distribution that France we're available now. We're very big in Gibraltar. Yep. So, you know, w w w we're doing our best and trying to go as fast as we possibly can. Um, whilst also, obviously the UK is our base trying to build out the distribution points here as well.

MIC2 50:48

Now, uh, one of the first time you and I were talking, you said you were thinking about different slogans or just things that you can see. And one of them was, um, It's okay. Colony. Well, we'll take it from here as into KFC. Um, and I also realized something very, uh, interesting and almost really funny, actually set the social media page or VRC only follows one account and that is KFC. So my question is, is the goal to replace the chicken of KFC. Are you trying to get to a point where you have enough power to, I don't know, in some way or another sit down and have this like communication with them and say, give it a try. It will probably be slowly, you know, and then one day maybe in the future, they fully changed, but is it, let's say one of the main goals of VFC to replace KFC is chicken.

MIC1 51:42

Well, look, I think I doubt whether wherever we're going to do business with KFC, um, I don't know if we talk about the investigation that we're working on at the minute, but I mean, yeah, more broadly we're wanting to produce, uh, products that compete on a like-for-like basis with animal based. Um, there is a, uh, conceived, uh, wisdom out there that what the plant-based food, uh, movement needs to do is compete on price, convenience, and tastes so price. How do we get our products, uh, to price parity with, um, animal based or even gap to, to honor the cost and with check-in and thinking about how they're produced.

MIC2 52:31

which is

MIC1 52:32

Horrifically efficient. Um, but I do think that there is an opportunity to be able to produce chicken plant-based cheaper than animal beast. Um, then you look at convenience. So it's about, you know, if people, um, you know, we need to get these products on menus available in all outlets, um, you know, with as much shelf space as we possibly can, as quickly as we can. And then taste is going to be, um, you know, unfortunately people don't just go vegan very easily. Um, it's a struggle. Um, a lot of people are put off by the taste. Um, you know, when I'm speaking to non vegans in, in, in retail, there is, you know, it's, it's clear that there is a perception that we all need to work harder to make the products taste better. But I think in terms of VFC there's so there's those three pillars are, what we're trying to do with VFC is our two further pillars. Um, one is sheer top marketing and the second is purpose and mission. So for us, we've got like five pillars. We're trying to work on all five, uh, the best that we can. Um, I mean, in terms of the product, we're not there yet, our product we've actually sampled it, uh, paneled it against all the vegan foods. And we've also had feedback from omnivores in how it compares with chicken. And we're being told that it's not good enough yet. Um, so, but we're working on. Uh, our current product is version two. We're working on version three. We're already thinking ahead to version four. And as soon as the technology improves, um, we'll be, you know, first, uh, one of the first to be able to try and add that new learning to what we're producing, to be able to get, um, to a position where our product is perceived as being, not just as good but better in terms of taste profile. It's a long, hard slog, you know, it really is. Um, you know, not just for VFC, but for all, for all vegan food businesses, I would say,

MIC2 54:39

Is it possible to at the moment, at least in the case of the UK get subsidies from the government for the product.

MIC1 54:46

I'm not aware of that's available at the minute, and that's, again, one of the things that's going against us because the animal based industries are subsidized,

MIC2 54:53

Yeah. Which is ridiculous, given that they're neither ethical nor sustainable, nor healthy. Like at least if one of them was through, you would try to justify the subsidies, but it doesn't really make any sense.

MIC1 55:09

but what I would say is in the last few years, certainly, I mean, I'm in the UK. So I look at a lot of things through that lens, but we're seeing a lot more conversation about, um, the environmental impacts of meat production. It's being discussed more than it was five, years or 10 years ago. Um, so I think you you're finding that retailers, um, uh, food service providers, you know, I'm not on the political side of things. Um, but certainly from where I'm seeing it, and also from the investment side of it, we're seeing that, um, funds, uh, money that would be going towards ESG or sustainable development goals are now starting to realize that the food sector is, uh, a good place to invest money. Um, It's difficult to convince, uh, institutions, high net worth individuals, family offices, um, to care about animals. Um, but we are finding that they do care about environmental and sustainability. Um, a lot more. So if we can join the dots up

MIC2 56:15

um,

MIC1 56:16

together and say, okay, look, we're focused on the animals. You might not care about the animals. Let's not worry about that, but the animals are actually, um, the impact that they're having on biodiversity land use, climate change, water pollution, uh, water use species extinction, uh, So where we're with our venture capital, we're now working on an impact assessment tool where we can plug in, um, let's say vegan cheese, uh, and these are the ingredients. And then it will compare the impacts that hasn't compared to animal based cheese, so that then we can make quick decisions. And then we can show that to investors, to be able to say, look by investing in, in this space. Here's the impact that you're having. It's not just this weird vegan thing. We're actually, this is environmentally focused. Um, we're more like to persuade people to invest. So I'm seeing a lot of positivity, um, in terms of food companies, you know, Nestle and Unilever, really talking a good story about, um, wanting to develop more plant-based stuff because they realize that it's an easy way for them to, um, to achieve their environmental credentials as well. And with retailers we're pushing against an open door. Um, they're very open-minded to, to talking with us at the moment, ultimately, it's got to sell, it's got to sell, it's got to taste good and everything else, but, um, you know, I'm cautiously optimistic. Yeah.

MIC2 57:50

I was having a private conversation, a zoom call actually with a representative from Unilever. And they did share with me that there, they had this plan. I don't know, I don't remember the numbers, but in this many years to make 50% of their profits from 50%, I'm just throwing numbers now, but they want to make the, at least a big majority of their profits from plant-based products. They want to switch in that direction. And of course, no one is a big fan of Unilever, but I'm not going to tell them don't do that. I'd rather they do that because they have the finances and the means and the context to make that accessible to the public.

MIC1 58:27

uh, what does it say about I once went and presented.

MIC2 58:31

uh,

MIC1 58:32

Through began URI to, uh, they had what's called a flexitarian immersion day. Uh, but it was, it was the marketing managers from a lot of the Unilever brands. So there was Ben and Jerry's there, there was, um, Marmite that there was, um, I can't remember all the brands that were there, but, um, there was maybe 10, 15 different brands. And I was brought in as the vegan expert, the vegan guy to talk about their space. So I presented to them and, you know, I had lunch with a lot of people afterwards and

MIC2 59:09

uh,

MIC1 59:10

the people that I met there were lovely. They share a lot of the same values that we do, you know, the care about climate change, they care about the future, um,

MIC2 59:20

of that

MIC1 59:20

for their families. Um, you know, one of the women that were sat next to me, she was reading. Peter singer animal liberation, you know, she was working for one of the, you know, so we're not too far away. I don't, I don't like to say, oh, Unilever, they're an evil company that bad to cost. They're doing some bad things, but there's people within those organizations that, are, um, compassionate and, uh, similar to ours and, uh, you know, trying their best to make things better. So again, cautiously optimistic, but this is still a huge challenge ahead, obviously.

MIC2 59:54

That's true. So one of the things that I've seen with VFC a lot is the investigations that you also mentioned earlier. Uh, you mentioned when we first came here that there's new stuff coming up. Uh, could you please start maybe from the beginning, why did you decide to do investigations? It's also very widely shared on social media, you know, as a company too, To go inside, you know, as a member of the company to going inside this, uh, these horrific places and exposing them, it's something that I believe is really important, you know, because you're not only saying, Hey, have this because it stays, it's like have this because it's Stacey and otherwise you usually have that and look how horrible it is. So can you please talk about, uh, the investigations for a bit?

MIC1 1:00:40

Yeah, I mean, we launched VFC with an investigation, which was me taking after my business partner into a chicken farm because I wanted him to feel as passionately about it as I do when he does now, he's, he's gone fully vegan. Um, we're both on that same sort of mission, but I wanted him to see, um, the life of chickens and he served a lot of chickens through his career as a chef in a restaurant, as a business owner. So, um, so we've done about six now, six or seven while we've been into poultry farms. And, um, it, it.

MIC2 1:01:20

is

MIC1 1:01:22

I can get emotional because it is, um, it is hard sometimes. I mean, I tend to be me and the, uh, the film guy and the investigator, when we go in, you're on, you're in the zone where you, you feel like, um, there's tragedy happening all around you, but it's like, we need to get that scene. We need to get up footage there. We need to get in and out. Um, so we go in the middle of the night, it is trespass, um, scenario, but we never break and enter. Um, it's a civil offense rather than a criminal offense in the UK, which is not the same in other countries. So actually it's easier in the UK to do this type of investigation. Um, but what we, you know, as a company to be doing it, it is highly risky. We've got away with it so far. Um, and, but ultimately I just feel that, you know, What is happening in the farms is what is immoral?

MIC2 1:02:22

What

MIC1 1:02:23

is wrong? What is ought to be illegal, not as going in and being the messenger and, and filming it and sharing this information. That's how I feel. So I'm willing personally to take that risk. Um, we are notching things up a little bit. Um, there was, um, a video that was promoted, um, where KFC had a paid promotion with joe.co.uk and YouTube called Nico on Milana was invited to go into, uh, one of the farms that supplies KFC. And it really

MIC2 1:03:03

was

MIC1 1:03:04

totally sugar-coating what happens in farms. They filmed it when the birds were about 15 to 20 days old. So the, the small cute, and also they've gotten a lot more space within these, the shed, because the so small, um, it was filmed with all brand new bedding had just been laid. Um, there was no dead birds, no struggling birds in any of the shots. Um, and it was just completely exaggerated. And we were, when we saw it, we were disgusted as a company that, that KFC, we're putting that side of message out. Now they have this thing called behind the book kit, and it's their commitment in terms of social, environmental, and animal welfare commitments. Um, and this was all part of the behind the bucket campaign. So we were, yeah, really in sadness because we know having been in so many of these factory farms that what they were showing was just not true. It was lying. So we managed to find the farm. Uh, through, you know, Googling and research and everything. Um, and we went in on Sunday night to film it properly. The reality of what goes on in that farm. So we're editing the footage right now and we will be sharing it. Um, and we are going to, um, call out KFC for their lies. And, um, we have a major national newspaper that is interested in leading on the story. Um, I mean, it's, it's not about selling vegan fried chicken. Do you know what I mean? I'm not, I'm not even talking about that on camera. It's just showing you know, that. So we found birds that, um, what is the usual scenes of birds that can't stand up because they've grown so fast and, um, you know, dead birds, there's the wheelie bins outside, um, that are just packed with.

MIC2 1:05:07

um,

MIC1 1:05:09

You know, with hundreds of birds and it's just, it's really upsetting how, um, I shared something about a picture of a wheelie bin and there was a chicken's foot sticking out of the bin and the shed on my LinkedIn recently. And, uh, I mentioned Gundy talks about, um, you can judge the morality of a nation based on how the tree animals are, of course not quite right. And I put it on there and, you know, one guy who I don't know, commented and said, um, what, what would you expect for that chicken? Like a proper funeral. And I ended up trying to, um, talk him through it and, you know, I, I said, look, um, Well, you know, there were hundreds of birds that we witnessed and we're going to be sharing all the footage and, and they said, well, what, how do they die? So explain, you know, some of the common ways that they die. And he said, he said, ultimately, Matthew, I don't see any problem with throwing meat in a bin. What do you say to people like that? It's um, so yeah, but it's, uh, yeah, the content is coming out and, uh, we'll see how we go. Will you come and visit me in prison?

MIC2 1:06:28

We'll get in VFC for you. So you don't have to trade cigarettes for apples and bananas. Um, yeah, that's, that's really disturbing. And the fact that it's companies get away with it, I wish I wish it would be possible somehow. I don't know if it's touristy to do that, but to reach out to the people who KFC had gotten into the farm and say, now come to the farm with us. Obviously the chances of them reaching out and saying, Hey, like you're going to get busted because of the law or them having your formation, passing it to the police. You know, it can create a lot of things, but I remember.

MIC1 1:07:09

um,

Matthew's Principles of Change

MIC2 1:07:10

Apple had at the company, apple had used the, a person, a few, like, I, I don't know how long ago it was, but they made this advertisement where someone was being shown on apple and then windows and Intel, uh, laptop. And then why he would of course go with apple because it makes so much sense for recently when apple switched their, uh, chips from Intel chips to, uh, apple, Silicon chips. So they made it, make it themselves. Um, Intel guts, that same guy from the, uh, because obviously Intel lost a lot of money and they wanted to market against apple. They got the same guy from that really old advertisement to come and film him, um, choosing an Intel based, uh, laptop over, uh, uh, an apple laptop. So it would be interesting. I don't know how the logistics would be about that, but to also show those influencers what kind of farm they actually supported by accepting to do that. Well, we just don't know if they even care. Um,

MIC1 1:08:09

I don't know enough about Nico, but I do feel like, you know, I'm not blaming him for it. I think he was, you know, um, you know, for a lot of people, KFC is a, is a great company and, uh, you know, they've been invited and I think it's been presented to him in such a way,

MIC2 1:08:25

um,

MIC1 1:08:27

uh, staged almost. Um, so, you know, no blame to Nico. It it's, um, I do find it. I mean, partly part of me thinks, well, at least we're winning. If, if KFC are, uh, going to those lengths and, um, feeling that animal welfare is something that they've got.

MIC2 1:08:46

to,

MIC1 1:08:48

T T to have a focus on because there's concerns around it then, but I'm, this is, to me, this is a great opportunity for us as a movement to actually take some KFC there, lies and show it for what it is. Um, so, you know, I'm really hopeful that the campaign resonates

MIC2 1:09:05

with me.

MIC1 1:09:05

and hopefully we'll make a few people. And one of the things that I said on camera is, look, we're not saying don't go to KFC, but if you do go to KFC, they've got a really great vegan burger.

MIC2 1:09:17

just letting you know, putting it out there.

MIC1 1:09:20

You know, you don't need to support what we're showing you here.

MIC2 1:09:23

Yeah, that's true. And it's interesting how they always try to switch the question and the attention from a, is it ethical to exploit and kill other animals to how can we ethically kill them? So that's what they're doing, right? It's like, oh, look how clean this place is. And look how happy the animals are. The thing is even if, even if you went to that farm and it turns out it was that clean and good. What's the end product. It's the animal is becoming a product of consumption and we're reducing the sentient conscious beings into, into stock basically, which is why they're called livestock because they're alive stock. So

MIC1 1:10:02

th the there's this better chicken commitment that KFC have signed up to as long along with other companies. And I started reading through some of the documentation and KFC do include a content like a download on their website. And, you know, it struck me that they, they, they know from the farms that supply them what the wastage rate is. In other words, how many birds die before they even get to the slaughterhouse? And last year, it went up from 4% to 4.3, 7%.

MIC2 1:10:36

Now,

MIC1 1:10:38

You know, if you look at that on a, a UK basis, there's about 1.2 billion chickens that are, um, uh, slotted for food. So that would suggest to me, there's around about 50 million, um, birds that suffer to death in factory farms before the even get on that final ride to the slaughter house, you know, and KFC knows this it's part of their strategy is to try and reduce that as much as possible so that they're talking about, uh, uh, slower growing birds. So, um, typically birds in most factory farms have a, a life of 35 days, maybe 40 to, uh, five to six weeks cycle and, you know, KFC committed to moving towards seven weeks. Um, so the, the growing a little bit slower it's putting less pressure on. Um, immature skeletons. But interestingly, this particular farm that we went into, they were not slower growing birds. They were faster growing birds. And this is a flagship farm that they've pot sent an influence to tell. So yeah,

MIC2 1:11:50

If this is the best one they chose out of all the ones they have to document. Imagine what the others

MIC1 1:11:56

what's happening everywhere else. And I'm a bit uncomfortable about this better welfare thing, you know, to me, it's obvious we just need to stop eating.

MIC2 1:12:05

Simple as that. Okay. So my last question for you would be, um, something that I ask all the guests on this podcast, and that is what are your principle, uh, core principles that are basically pushing you to fight for change?

MIC1 1:12:23

That's a really difficult question. Not something that, um, I think about, I mean, I am, I am obsessed. Stuart who works with me at VFC. So you're like a fanatic Matthew because there isn't anything else in my life other than the mission. Um, so I just have this laser focus on farm animals. I try not to complicate life any more than that. Um, I feel like I wasted my twenties and thirties doing something that, um, you know, wasn't really, um, helping the world in any way. And, um, so now I'm sort of supercharged my, my life, um, to try and do as much as I possibly can, um, for the animals. Um, you know, it's, I still feel as passionate today, 10 years after going vegan as I did in those first few days. Joining the dots up and, um, that puts pressure on, um, it's, it's, you know, it's frustrating the pace of change sometimes. Um, it's frustrating when you're trying to reason with people and, and, you know, they just don't care in the same way that we do. Um, so, but I, there was, um, I think it was Tom Regan in, in, uh, a book talked about, um, that not to think of it as a, a hundred meter race. Um, you know, the mission that we're on and that it's more like a relay and I might be only running the second leg of a four by 400 meter relay race. Um, so I'm never going to see the finishing line, you know, but somebody will see the finishing line at some point in the future and they would never have been able to get there.

MIC2 1:14:14

without

MIC1 1:14:16

The other people running their leg and handing that, but I know of a cell that makes me content, uh, you know, rationalizing things in that, in that way to, to stick out it and just keep going

MIC2 1:14:30

Perfect.

MIC1 1:14:31

burning out.

MIC2 1:14:32

Yes. All right. Well, thank you so much for your time and all your work, all the great work that you've done and that you're doing as well. I'm looking forward to hearing all the updates and seeing everything else you will achieve in your life. So thank you so much.

MIC1 1:14:48

thank you, sir. Thank you for giving me the platform to be able to, uh, share my thoughts on things. And I hope the audience was interested and thank you for everything obviously that you're doing as well.

MIC2 1:14:58

Thank you for joining this episode with Matthew Glover. I hope you enjoy that as much as I did. This is a sector that I personally have no experience. And so it's always good to hear and learn about what others are doing and how it functions. If there's one thing I can ask from you all it's to please share this episode with at least one friend of yours, if you found any value in it so that more and more people realize how important several types of activism. R Or how much it helps other animals, the environment or whatever. Cause it is that you're fighting for. I'd also like to remind you to please subscribe to this podcast channel, which is, and will always be for free And leave a review to help it reach more and more people. If you'd like to support this podcast directly, Which I would, of course, really appreciate. And in return, get free, exclusive and early access to all these episodes. Check out the patron and think below. Until the next episode keep in mind the actual power of the individual