Collective Fashion Justice with Emma Håkansson

In the 9th episode of the Principles of Change podcast, I discuss fashion and ethics with Emma Håkansson from Collective Fashion Justice. Emma is the author of How Veganism Can Save Us, she writes for publications on sustainable and ethical fashion, and consults with brands on their ethics and environmental impact.

In Today's Episode:

• Intro
• Emma's background
• What is Collective Fashion Justice?
• Is fake fur sustainable?
• What is biodegradable and recyclable?
• Bamboo  cotton
• How ethical are big companies?
• New technologies
• Emma’s principles of change

Links: 
https://www.collectivefashionjustice.org

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Transcript

Intro

Seb Alex 0:00

Thank you. So. Making time for this. I'm really happy to get into all the questions that I personally have as well. Have you been.

Emma Hakansson 0:08

Well, thank you. How are you? Thanks for having me.

Seb Alex 0:11

I'm doing good. Thank you. So I will talk about a lot of things. I have a lot of questions to you. I know a lot of the questions are questions that a lot of other people have as well, both vegans and non vegans. But before we start, I wanted to ask you if you can just share a short background and your story basically, and how you became vegan and how you are, where you are right now.

Emma Hakansson 0:33

Yeah. So if we go the furthest back when I was 16, which is not that long ago, I'm 22. Um, I went vegan and the year before that I stopped eating land dwelling animals. And that was just because, you know, there was a year where I didn't really understand the rest of the industries, which I think a lot of people have that kind of thing, but I stopped eating those animals because I'm half Swedish. I was living with my dad's side of the family in Sweden, and I realized how common it is to. Animals like moose and deer there because I kept being served it and I felt really uncomfortable with the idea eating those animals. Even though at home, I was eating lambs, pigs, cows, chickens. And I realized that I actually couldn't be uncomfortable with eating some animals, but comfortable with eating others. It just wasn't consistent. So I was, that was when I decided that actually I didn't wanna oppress. Be responsible for the killing of anyone. So that happened. And then I started working as a model that kind of turned into me doing more with ethics consultation, with different brands, helping them to move away from materials like leather and wool. I started working with animal rights groups. Not so much fashion related, just kind of generally. And then it was through that, that I decided to found and direct collective fashion justice, which is the nonprofit I run. And I'm also now an author and have a book called how veganism can save us. So that's me in a nutshell.

Seb Alex 2:08

amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that. So we are gonna go into every single one of these points, um, to begin with. Can you give us a short explanation of what is collective fashion justice and how was idea born and what is its main goal? Basically?

Emma Hakansson 2:25

so I felt that if I was gonna change the fashion industry, I needed an organization that felt as though it sat within that industry because fashion people are very particular. They care about aesthetics, obviously. So they don't, they're less interested in hearing from an animal rights group that. You know, it doesn't fit in their world, I guess. So I created collective fashion justice to fit in that world with the goal to create what I call a total ethics fashion system. And so that means a system that prioritizes the life and wellbeing of all animals, humans, and non-humans as well as the planet before profit. So should be a quiet, you know, everyone could agree that that's a good thing, but that's very far from what the industry is now. So it's a big goal and we are trying to focus mostly on animal derived materials and products and their supply chains because it's in those systems that people, animals and planet are all harmed.

Seb Alex 3:25

Yeah, of course. And if you were to get into the details, and this is where all the really interesting questions will come up. Um, what do we know about the sustainability of fake for comparing to real, for, um, the ethics put aside, of course, because we can make the argument that it's not ethical. End of story. But what about the sustainability part? Because there's a lot of talk about, you know, um, fake fur being just plastic and bad for the environment. Whereas the real fur is just the skin of the.

What is Collective Fashion Justice?

Is fake fur sustainable?

Emma Hakansson 3:54

Yes. So definitely. Even if we put aside ethics, it's not a sustainable choice to buy to where to produce with animal fur. And I'll preface everything that I say now for the rest of our chat, that everything I say is referenced on the collective fashion justice website. Mm-hmm so. Lots of information there if people want it. But fur, firstly, isn't biodegradable. A lot of people assume that it is the same way they assume leather is. It's not either. And that's because fur dressing, which is the equivalent of leather, tanning is really chemical heavy. And even by industry studies, it doesn't biodegrade really, even a little bit. So there's that aspect. And then if we look at the climate, if we compare something like mink, fur and mink fur coats with. The most common synthetic FOFA, which is, you know, there are more sustainable versions of that. Even there, mink fur has a climate impact. That is about five times worse. So, you know, we're in a climate crisis. IPCC reports just came out. We know that that's important. There's also things to consider like, Fur factory farms release a huge amount of pollution that can result in nutation, which is sort of like an over enrichment that can cause algal, blooms and ultimately dead zones in waterways mm-hmm so that's a huge aspect. There's also other kinds of pollution that come from those fur factory farms and. Zoonotic disease risk too. We've obviously been talking about that so much with COVID 19, that's a risk, not just to humans and not just to the animals in those cages, but also to the free living species that are around those cages that can also pick up those diseases. And that can bear huge by diversity threat. So, so many reasons just in the environmental side alone, that fair is not yeah, the right choice.

Seb Alex 5:50

Okay. Well, I'll definitely link the, the website in the description of the, uh, of the episode. So if people wanna learn more, they can definitely use that. And. Now, what do we know about sustainability of fake leather versus real leather? And another thing where it's just called plastic and therefore unsustainable again, of course, ethics put aside and, um, can you just share some facts about this? Some misconceptions.

Emma Hakansson 6:15

So when we talk. Materials and what makes them sustainable? There's a lot of different things that we need to consider. One of the most kind of comprehensive data sets about material sustainability is from. The hi index, it's called the Higg material sustainability index. They consider the impact in material production, around chemistry, the use of chemicals Abbi resource depletion. So the use of fossil fuels, fresh water use rectification, which I mentioned before and climate. If we look at all of those things, cow, skin, leather, most common kind of leather. Has just a hugely greater environmental impact compared to polyurethane, which is the most common alternative. It's what we think of as synthetic leather. Um, and if we look beyond that or we dive in a bit deeper collective fashion, justice has put together a bunch of statistics that are more accessible to individual consumers because all the kind of industry and government data. Can just kind of go over our heads and not mean that much. Um, but our data has found that a pair of cow skin, leather boots, for example, the carbon equivalent footprint of that product is 66 kilos of carbon emissions. If you compare that to synthetic leather boots, it's 9.5 kilos. So that's just in the pair of shoes that you buy a very big difference. Um, if you look at water, A bag made of cow skin leather is equal to like 17,100 liters of water over that actually. And synthetic leather is 14 times less than that. Um, like I said, we know that leather's not biodegradable, even if it's vegetable tanned, even according to tannery industry data. And then there's biodiversity and land use, which is. A huge thing that we kind of never talk about and that I'm desperate for people to talk about more. Um, so you know, a lot of people know that cattle ranching, beef and leather production has a huge impact on deforestation. The Amazon it's the leading cause of it, that deforestation and vegetation clearing is happening all around the world. Animal agriculture is always like the leading drive rubber in so many places. And if we look at leather specifically, if we are producing. Jackets leather jackets on Brazilian land. So that could be in the Amazon rain forest. You would have to clear 10,000 square meters of land to be able to raise enough cows to slaughter for just less than nine jackets. So if you think about all of the different diverse plant and animal species that are in that part of that rainforest, it's, it's devastating. So you. That alone is enough reason to avoid it. And if we look at Pinto, which is the cactus leather kind of alternative all of these materials that are better than synthetic leather, cuz I'm not saying that that's the ultimate solution either, but if you have to choose between them, like one is better than the other. Um, And it's also worth noting to, you know, leathers a co-product it's not a byproduct of the meat industry. So often the industry says, oh, well, all of this impact that's on the meat industry. It's not our problem. Of course it is. It's a part of the leather supply chain and leather is sold from Florida houses because it turns of profit. And when slotted houses don't sell skins, even because of the popularity of alternatives, they lose millions of dollars. So it's definitely. Leather has a lot going for it financially for the industry.

Seb Alex 10:07

yeah, I mean, it's, it's one of those products that like I see in my day to day life, more leather than meat. It's just every. You know, even as simple as walking into like a public library or administration building, the seats are leather, you know, anywhere just on the streets, people wearing leather shoes, leather sandals, and everything jackets, as you said. And, um, I remember I used to think that cows are killed for their meat, for their flesh, and then they use the leather and then they use this idea, um, of, well, at least you're using the whole animal. But I do remember reading, uh, on the fact that sometimes no, it's, they're literally just killed for the leather as well. Uh, I think that was a misconception that I had, uh, when I was vegetarian actually. Um, cuz it helped me justify my exploitation of, of still some animals.

Emma Hakansson 10:59

Um, especially for calf skin leather, it's often that's when there's not enough carbs to, you know yeah. Supply the luxury industry.

Seb Alex 11:09

Yeah, it's really disturbing, but thank you for sharing those facts. It's, it's really one of those, those things that you just don't think about, like when it comes to. Meat and, and just flesh of other animals, you know, you see it, you know, what happened, they killed the animal, but then when it comes to clothing, it's just, um, or just other objects. It's just so hidden. Um, it's not as much in your face as let's say the flesh of an animal is. So it's really good to have all this information out there. Um, I wanted to ask you, what is the most sustainable ethical material for clothing if we don't take into consideration? Cause I, I would think like the most sustainable is, is to just buy secondhand. No, actually the most sustainable is just not buy at all unless you need it. Um, but, uh, I would say secondhand would come first, correct me if I'm wrong. Um, and then what would come after that? If you're gonna buy a new product or you're gonna make a product, uh, what material would you say is the most sustainable.

The most sustainable ethical material

Emma Hakansson 12:07

So first I would just complet. With you at the moment, a hundred billion garments are made every year and a truck full of clothes go to landfill every second. So if we don't need to buy clothes, we shouldn't and definitely secondhand. If we can do that. And it's so easy to get so much secondhand, including, you know, you can get vegan, leather, secondhand, and all of those things. Um, but if you wanna buy new because you can't find something, otherwise, firstly, the material, it depends on what you're looking for. You. What the purpose is, but if we talk about something like you're looking for knitwear, for example, some of the most sustainable alternatives there. So instead of using sheep or a packable or cashmere from goats, we'd be looking at recycled cotton. Recycled is always. A good option, especially if it's recycled by degradable material, organic cotton. If it's rain fed, not all organic cotton is rain fed, but people often assume that it is, um, hemp 10 cell, which is a wood cellulose. Made in a closed loop from forest stewardship, certified wood, um, and bamboo LA cell as well. Different materials, all have different, you know, positives and negatives. You can say, you know, this one uses a bit more water. This one is less energy intensive, but these ones overall are far better than animal materials. And when we look. The end of life impact. They're all biodegradable. So they have that on synthetic materials too.

Seb Alex 13:37

Hmm.

Emma Hakansson 13:38

So they're good options.

Seb Alex 13:41

So if I were to ask you, and this might be a difficult question, but let's say for some reason, decided to start, um, a line yourself, uh, like a fashion line, which material would you go with? Let let's say t-shirt.

Emma Hakansson 13:54

Okay. Well, If we go slightly away from t-shirts because collective fashion justice does have a non-profit network collection. Um, we have used Australian cotton, but it's a very specific kind of Australian cotton that has a specific certification. And that is made. Using it's like rotationally corrupt so that when the cotton isn't growing, it's growing chickpeas and then the chickpeas leave nitrogen in the soil. Like it's really complicated, but we've chosen that. And that's partly because I think it's important to support agricultural industry that isn't harming animals so that there can be that transition. But if I wasn't considering that aspect, I would always choose something that was both biodegradable and.

Seb Alex 14:42

All right. And, um, for someone who doesn't know what that means, can you give an example of what is both biodegradable and respect?

Emma Hakansson 14:51

Um, so biodegradable means that. Basically if once you are done with something, you bury it in the soil, it breaks down in a way that you are actually feeding the soil and microorganisms can feed on it and be nourished by it as compared to you put something in the soil, like a plastic bag. And at first just nothing happens. It doesn't break down and then over time it does break down, but it's just breaking. Tiny pieces and it's polluting the soil. Yeah. So that's biodegradable. And then if something is recycled, it means that it's been made out of something else. So especially post-consumer recycled goods of the best, you know, making a t-shirt out of a different t-shirt. Um, and then. It also needs to be recyclable so that that loop can continue because some things, once they've been recycled, they can't necessarily be recycled again because the quality degrades each time you recycle it. Yeah. Yeah. So it's more complicated than it seems as with everything, but that's the gist.

Seb Alex 15:58

Okay. And would, would cotton and bamboo both fall in the categories of biodegradable and.

Emma Hakansson 16:06

Yes. In most cases, bamboo would be a little bit more difficult, but there's also different kinds of bamboo materials, which I know you have a question about comparing those. You might save that for.

What is biodegradable and recyclable?

Seb Alex 16:21

Yes. So yeah, the, the, the question would be is bamboo better than cotton, because this is something I looked at myself. Um, I have a very, very small. I don't even know what to call it. Like clothing line, uh, ethics over habits. I made it when I first started doing activism. Cause I thought it would help me to fund my activism. Uh, it's very, very small. Um, so I, I work with families here. I, I go and see them. I, I, I know, I know who's working there. I know who's, it's one person making the t-shirts. That's how small the numbers are. And I was for so long confused between what to choose organic cotton or bamboo and. I, I was told that bamboo could be, um, could be more harmful because of the chemicals that are used. Um, but on the other hand, you know, cotton uses more water. Anyway, I'm not gonna get into it. I'm gonna let you give all the information please on that.

Bamboo VS cotton

Emma Hakansson 17:14

Yes. So first we have to be a little bit more specific to answer that question, cuz there's lots of different types of cotton and there's different kinds of bamboo. So bamboo, rayon and bamboo Lionel are the two types of bamboo fabric, bamboo rayon. It's basically the difference is about how it's processed because bamboo is nothing like something that you can wear, obviously. So a lot has to happen for it to be wearable. Rayon production is particularly chemical heavy. Most rayon production is still not very transparent and people don't know heaps about how it all happens. Um, But comparatively li cell bamboo, it does still require chemicals, but the chemicals are less intensive. They can be produced in a closed loop, so that both the water and the chemicals that are used to process the bamboo can be used again the next time. Um, so it's much better than Ryan. Um, it's a cleaner process, basically, if you compare bamboo Lisel with conventional cotton. Which just, if you buy a cotton t-shirt, it's conventional cotton, unless it says otherwise, um, then bamboo, Ella is better. All Ella is better, but then if you look at bamboo, ISEL compared to organic cotton, organic cotton is better if it's rain fed. So there's no irrigation happening. Yeah. Um, and then recycled cotton is better than both of.

Seb Alex 18:45

okay. That's interesting. Cause I went with organic cotton. I didn't know about the irrigation system. So now I'm gonna have to do some research and see and see what I'm doing. And also look, if, um, I can find recyclable cotton for the next time that I produce any new design. Um, so I wanted to know what are some unsustainable practices that should eventually change, um, of a material that is considered vegan friendly.

Emma Hakansson 19:13

So. Vegan leather is a good example. So most of it that's available now is synthetic, which means that it's partly plastic, which means that it's funding the fossil fuel industry, which is not a good thing. Interestingly, cow skin leather production actually requires more fossil fuels, even though it's like that doesn't seem logical, but it's what it is. But still either way, we don't wanna have any fossil fuel spot. That's. Gonna be in the past actually. Um, so we need to be moving towards more bio-based materials. So, you know, that are coming from the earth and that can go back to the earth, fossil fuels come from the earth technically, but you know, different. Yes. Um, so yeah, and that. Whole process is happening. The amount of innovation in the biomaterial space is huge. We're seeing, you know, my ceiling leather is gonna be coming out. We've already got alternatives that are plastic free. We've got it's it's happening now. So it's only gonna improve.

Seb Alex 20:16

Uh, that's really great. I wanted to ask you, um, when you set the cow leather industry uses more fossil fuels, is that because of the procedure, like the, what they do with the skin, or is that because of the transportation of the cows?

Emma Hakansson 20:34

It's because of the whole supply chain. So fossil fuels used on the farm fossil fuels used in transportation and fossil fuels used in the energy for slaughterhouses, for tanneries the whole thing.

Unsustainable practices

Seb Alex 20:47

All right. Okay. So my next question, and this is something I think is really important. Should vegans or anyone who cares about the ethical side of this, be aware of any specific product for its unethical or unsustainable impacts that are not known to the public.

Emma Hakansson 21:03

Yeah, I would say that shoes is a huge thing to think about. Often you would assume that if you buy shoes that have a full leather. The shoe is vegan. Firstly, sometimes the insole that you can't even see has leather in it. And then even if that doesn't have leather in it, the glues that bind the whole shoe together are made from animal fats and even sometimes the dyes for the material that is a vegan leather can be made using animal derived materials. So. The best thing to do is to buy certified vegan shoes because they're the companies that are actually aware and thinking about this and are doing as much as they can to make sure that none of that is happening as compared to a fast fashion brand that uses for leather, cuz it's cheap and doesn't actually care.

Seb Alex 21:58

Yeah, that makes sense. I knew about the glue, but I didn't know about the, the soul part and the fact that it can have leather under it. Um, so yeah, that's, that's really interesting. An idea came up now. I dunno if I should ask now or later I will ask it later. I'm just gonna keep it as a note because no, I, I, you probably have thought about it, but I, I was just thinking about it and, and I thought, well, that, that would be something nice, but let's leave it for later. Um, my next question would be when it comes to, uh, workers rights. So human rights. Stuff. How ethical are big companies, such as H and M and others. And I know H and M is always the one that gets the most hate. Like they're the most famous one for this, but there's, I mean, I really mean about all of them. Yeah.

How ethical are big companies?

Emma Hakansson 22:51

So H and M sheen Boohoo are whatever, fast fashion brand and even brands that we don't necessarily consider fast fashion. So, but really any brand that is like a multinational, massive, massive brand. Mm-hmm, not a single one of those brands pays living wages to the people that make their quotes. So a living wage. Is a wage that covers your basic needs, medical care, shelter, food, water. It's not asking for much. Um, so the opposite of a living wage is what we call a poverty wage. It keeps someone in poverty if they're paid that much. And that's what all of these brands are paying people. So as far as how ethical are they in their treatment of people? Not ethical. Um, they're also often, you know, being made to work overtime constantly. They're working in conditions that are unsafe physically and they're being exploited harassed, especially because 80% of garment workers are women of color. And most of the people in managerial positions and men. And so the kind of feminist issues come into that as well. So there's a lot wrong. With the fashion industry in terms of how it treats people. And actually if we, if the fashion industry spent more money paying those workers properly so that they could live good lives and rise out of poverty, it would actually also benefit the environment because that's money spent on kind of zero emissions. Goods cuz labor, it's a person doing something, right? And so then that money can't be spent on depleting the planet on producing even more stuff. It would force brands to reduce a little bit in size and to just kind of actually pay what they're supposed to pay instead of outsourcing the cost onto workers, the environment animals.

Seb Alex 24:46

Okay. And this question I think is, has to be followed by the following one, which is, are these labels, you know, fair trade and all these things, are they really trustworthy or can a company just pay the price and then never have checkups and things like that.

Are fair-trade labels trustworthy?

Emma Hakansson 25:06

It's a complicated question. So firstly, um, There's only one organization that is like the fair trade organization. It's the one that's like the circle that's green and blue with the black and white writing, heaps of brands say fairly made fair trade, whatever. And they don't actually have that certification. They're just using words. So that's obviously a huge problem because then it means nothing. Yeah. Um, and then certifications. Are important collective fashion. Justice is gonna release one at the end of the year. Um, but it's really difficult because it relies on brands providing you information. Mm-hmm And so. The best certifications rely on like external auditing. So that the brand can't just say, well, here you go. We've got it all. Yeah. But literally everything in the world can be falsified at least to a certain degree, if you are not in the place all the time. Mm-hmm but some certifications absolutely are great. And you can look out for them. Like here in Australia, the ethical clothing, Australia certification is great for labor rights. There are organizations like fair wear that. Like a trustworthy and what they say about brands is worth listening to. Um, but it's really hard. I think everyone should ask brands. If they pay the people who make their clothes, a living wage mm-hmm most of the time a company will say, yes, we pay fair wages. That is not the same thing. And it doesn't legally mean anything. So unless they can specifically say we pay a living wage and they can show that that's true through an audit or something, they probably don't most of the time, they're not giving information cuz it's not information, but would sell you clothes.

Seb Alex 27:01

Yeah, I understand. Well, um, you did kind of ruin the question. I was skipping for the end, because it was. The idea of collective fashion justice, having a label that is a certification. I was thinking like, what's better organization to do this. As you know, if you say vegan friendly or vegan certified, doesn't say anything about sustainability or human rights. If you say fair trade, doesn't say anything about animals. So it would be great to have on that. That looks over all three. You did mention it. So I'm gonna ask you if you can share more information on that.

Emma Hakansson 27:37

Yes. So the certification. Is in the works at the moment, we are having brands that I trust and have relationships with, go through it, to give feedback. Um, we have manufacturers like there's a vegan shoe factory in Brazil that is looking at it from the manufacturer side. So we're working on it still, but it will ensure we can't ensure total ethics because that's, we're all working towards that. So we are calling it like the base level of ethics where it's. This is the level at which I am happy to say, people should buy this and it's much better for people to buy this over something else mm-hmm And that's because it will mean that it's completely vegan, that the majority of the. Materials in the brand or the collection or the product, depending on what's being certified are sustainable based on a table that we have of like lease to most preferred. And that living wages are being paid to workers on tier one of the supply chains of people sewing the clothes, and that they're doing that in a safe working environment. So you don't buying that's way better than

Seb Alex 28:47

Yeah. Yeah. And can, um, can brands from out, like, can brands basically reach out and ask like, Hey, what are the, um, requirements? What, what should we. For you now, like, let's say someone's listening to this and, and they have a brand and they wanna get that certification. Um, can they just reach out and say like, Hey, what are, what is the process to get this? Or how does it work?

Emma Hakansson 29:09

Yes. So we'll have a page and people can email before that. Um, Which basically brands have to fill out a survey. And as part of the survey, they have to include a whole lot of documentation to prove what they're saying in the survey. So it's fairly intensive, but anything like that has to.

Seb Alex 29:26

All right. Okay. So my next question is if someone cannot afford to buy something that is certified fair trade, or they cannot find information on the. Production conditions. Uh, what can they do? Because I'm, I'm gonna give my example. I remember looking for boxers and I wanted to get fair trade and organic cotton. And it was around like 45 years of hair, which is not something I can afford. Like, that's really a lot for me. So I, I didn't end up buying one. I ended up buying the conventional. Which is what I could afford. And I know for a fact that there are people who are in worse conditions than me. So what, what advice would you give someone in that, um, condition or situation?

Emma Hakansson 30:12

I think it's hard and. Again, I would say other than for boxes, obviously, that you would try secondhand first, cuz that is more accessible, but sometimes it's not possible. Um, and in that case you do the best that you can, you know, sustainability and ethics do exist on a spectrum. There are brands that, you know, don't pay living wages that have a huge history of abusing their workers. And then there are brands that you. Somewhere between. Perfect. And there. Yeah. So it's worth choosing that brand over the brand over here. It's the same for materials. If you can't get. If we talk about knitwear again, if you are avoiding wool and you're avoiding synthetics and ideally you would get 10, so low recycled cotton, but you can't then conventional cotton is like, you know, there are choices that you have to make on that spectrum. And good on you is a website that has ratings for people, animals, and planet. Their animal ratings are. It's not like an anti speciesist organization. Yeah. So just ignore that part and choose vegan clothes. Um, but it is helpful for the other staff.

Seb Alex 31:32

Okay.

Emma Hakansson 31:33

comparing brands and your options. yeah.

Seb Alex 31:35

Okay. Thank you. And do you have any examples just on the top of your head of any of these, um, companies or brands that are not the worst ones, but they're also not perfect yet? Somewhere in the middle.

Emma Hakansson 31:48

I don't wanna give my endorsement to a brand. That's not like that way. So I think I have to let people kind of come to that themselves. Cause also at a certain point it's. A little bit subjective. Like I would always choose to ensure like, I mean, obviously never animal materials, that's just over like obvious. Yeah. But then I would always make sure that a living wage is being paid before I would choose a sustainable material. And that's because I think it's more important to ensure individuals aren't being oppressed. Okay. Then, you know what I mean? Yeah. Course. And, but maybe people disagree with me.

Seb Alex 32:27

Yeah. Okay. Um, so with the next question, even if I disagree with you, I'm gonna play the devil's advocate. And the question is, should we boycott these big companies all together? And once you answer, I will give you the arguments that I've heard against whatever you might answer. We'll see.

Should we boycott big companies?

Emma Hakansson 32:49

So if I go by my personal ethics, then I'd say yes, because I don't buy it from them. Mm-hmm um, and I don't buy from them because they're not paying anyone living wages. It doesn't matter to me if they're big and they're still not. Doing the right thing. Not everyone's able to do that. And so I would follow my early advice of, you know, doing the best you can on the spectrum. But a lot of people argue, you know, H and M had their vegan collection recently. And a lot of vegan people said, well, we have to buy this cuz we have to show that veganism. Yeah. Is the future of fashion. I don't agree with that because people are gonna buy it regardless to be honest, it's a huge brand. Um, But if you don't buy that product, you are not harming the vegan. Cause if you do buy that product, you definitely are paying for someone to be exploited. So I think that that's more important. Um, I think it's also really important to remember that we are not going like consumer demand plays a big part and. Conscious consumption is very important, but it is not the only way that we can make change. And so we shouldn't lock ourselves into feeling as though if we can't buy something, then you don't. We can, if you take even the luxury brands, most activists. We'll never be able to afford to get a bag from AMEZ or Prada or whatever, even if it was vegan and great, um, cuz we've made our life choices. Um, but we can change those brands without ever buying from them. That's what pressure campaigning is. That's what, you know, there are heaps of things we can do. Okay. Outside of buying is what I think my ultimate message would.

Seb Alex 34:38

Okay. So the argument that I've heard against, um, boycotting is the following, which is people in the areas where the production companies exist. Um, basically any human would always choose the job that they can get that pays best. Right. Um, whether it's me or you or anyone, like we go for the job that pays best. Um, especially if we are in a desperate situation. Some exceptions. I would say some people prefer something that pays less, but that they lo they love doing more, but majority of people go for what pays best and that is best for them. So the argument that I've heard is that pressure campaigns should continue against these companies, but boycotting is not a good idea because if the boycotting had an impact on the production, uh, companies, then people would. Sent home, basically, they won't work anymore and they would choose the second best job for them, which is gonna be obviously worse than the current job that they have. Does that make sense?

Emma Hakansson 35:40

Yes. But I think that that assumes that a brand like a fast fashion brand would be willing to stop their production, which they wouldn't they're go like before they say, oh, we're gonna send everyone. Because we don't wanna make clothes instead of paying you 20 cents more. Cuz really that's what we're talking like to pay a living wage to someone in Bangladesh, they would have to pay like 20 cents more an hour or something it's not Yeah. Anything huge. Um, and so I think that. Also it's the same thing with like veganism. Everyone's not gonna go vegan today. Yeah. The, no, not everyone in the world is gonna stop buying from H and M. So if quite a lot of people do, we are standing with our personal ethics while also campaigning and pushing for them to improve. I think that. It happens at the same time. And I don't think that a boycott is a boycott impacts the CEO, not the workers. The CEO is the one that is in charge of the workers. That's my opinion.

Seb Alex 36:42

Okay. Thank you. Um, yeah, I wouldn't have anything more to say against that. Do you have a list that shows materials from the most unsustainable to the most sustain?

Emma Hakansson 36:54

Yes. So the Higg material, sustainability index that I mentioned earlier, mm-hmm, that's the best to look at. It's not a cradle to grave. Data set, which would mean looking at what happens when at the end of life for those materials, it's cradle to gate. So from the start of production to when it like leaves to be made into clothes, but it's the best that we have available the top three most impactful materials, which are like so much more impactful than anything else, even though others are still very impactful. Uh, um, number one is silk. Number two is alpaca wool, and number three is cow skin leather. So they're all animal drive material, I

Seb Alex 37:39

Surprise.

Emma Hakansson 37:41

Yeah. And, you know, wool, doesn't follow that far below from sheep and yeah. All right. I can send you that graph if you want to like, yes, please have it pop up or something.

Seb Alex 37:54

Yes, please. Um, one of the most exciting things for me is hearing about, uh, new technologies that are coming up. For example, my ceiling leather, I've seen even a video of a Dutch, very small sort making mango leather. are some interesting new technologies that you can share?

New technologies

Emma Hakansson 38:14

So. My ceiling leather is probably the most commonly talked about innovation because it is really exciting. Um, it's not at full scale yet, so it's not available to everyone yet, but it will be fairly soon. Um, and the reason it's exciting, so it's made my ceiling is like the root structure underneath mushrooms. So calling up mushroom leather is not quite right. Um, Anyway, it grows like vertically in a warehouse. So there's no huge land footprint. It doesn't really need water. Um, the carbon footprint is much smaller and it can grow to like, whatever you want it to. If you wanna grow a circle of it, you can grow a circle of it as compared to a cow hide. Yeah. Is the shape that a cow is mm-hmm um, so that's really exciting. There's a lot of. Producers that are working with agricultural waste from fruit. And that's exciting because you know, food waste is a huge issue. Yes. And so, um, the fruit, leather place in rotor Dame that I think you mentioned is the one that is using mangoes. Have been taken from the farm and for whatever reason, because we're picky with our food, basically they've decided like, oh, it's not the right color. It's not the right shape. It's not whatever. So they would otherwise just be thrown out. But instead they're making them into a kind of leather alternative. It's not completely biodegradable yet the same way that cactus and pineapple leaf leather isn't, but they're heading that way. You know, they're the. Innovation. So they still need to be perfected. There's also tree kind, which is a biodegradable option. And it's made from like wood scraps. There's also clock, which isn't really. Like an innovation. It's just people forget about it. Core leather is biodegradable and you can take bark off of a tree without harming the tree. And it actually helps the trees question more carbon in the future. There's gonna be wall that's made like from algae. Um, there's further down. That's made from flowers, basically. There's lots of things. Even like last week, I think eco, which is a really great, like innovative Foer company, they released that they have been able to make a commercially compostable Biore degradable FOFA so that's very exciting too. So there's lots happening. There's lots to be excited about.

Seb Alex 40:52

That's really great. So I'm sure we are gonna see all of these updates on the Instagram page whenever they're out. That's where I get the, the, the facts and the news from. So I'm really happy to hear all of that. I had heard about cactus, leather and pineapple leather. Someone told me pineapple leather was not as, um, like strong as they thought it would be. Have you read anything about it?

Emma Hakansson 41:15

Versions of it. Like there's. A version that's called P texts perform or something. And that has a higher level of synthetic mm-hmm Um, and that makes it more durable, but there's also versions that are like 90 something percent pineapple leaf fiber. And then there's a resin biomass from like fermented starch and. I haven't got any shoes made out of it, but I would think that it's more suited for bags and things just because of the way that the material is. Okay. So yeah. All of these materials have like their ideal applications. Yeah.

Seb Alex 41:55

that makes sense. Now let's talk about your, one of your latest achievements, the book I'd love to hear more about that.

Emma Hakansson 42:05

So the book is something that. Basically, I want something that can invite people into veganism if they're interested in social justice more broadly. Cause at the moment, I think we see social justice over here in veganism over here, but it's a critical part of social justice. And I also think on the other side, there are people who come to veganism and then kind of just ignore that any other part of social justice exists, which is also unfortunate. Um, so. The book kind of outlines the same way that collective fashion justice breaks it down, I guess how veganism impacts the environment, how it impacts people. And then of course, how it impacts non-human animals themselves. Um, and it's really, it's designed very nicely. I can say that cause I didn't design it. Um, and it's, you know, In bite size pieces. So that they're big topics, but you don't have to kind of fall into a crisis while you read it. At least not too big of a crisis.

Seb Alex 43:11

And where can people, uh, grab a copy?

Emma Hakansson 43:15

It will be in bookstores in the us, the UK and Australia, but you can get it online anywhere. If you just look up how veganism can save us and my name, the place that is your place to go to will pop.

Seb Alex 43:30

Amazing. Now my last question, um, that I ask every single guest is the reason why I call this podcast principles of change is what are your core principles that basically push you to fight for change in this world?

Emma Hakansson 43:47

I think it's just. An unwavering commitment to like consistent anti-oppression and also to the belief that there is such a thing as total liberation, not while I'm alive necessarily. Um, and I think, you know, there's a great quote. It's a Maya Angela quote, and I'm gonna butcher it, but it's something like you have to fight for the things that you can't necessarily. In the distance, you just have to do it cuz it's the right thing to do. And I think the only right thing to do is to fight for total liberation. When we know that all around us, there are people and non-human animals suffering and that the environment that we all share is being destroyed. It's kind of, it's the thing that we have to do.

Seb Alex 44:38

Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for your time. I really, really appreciate it. I hope everyone enjoyed this as much as I did. I'll definitely. Be doing more research now, after we finish this and reading more about some of the things you shared, uh, where can people find you?

Emma Hakansson 44:54

Collective fashion justice on Instagram. Is collective fashion justice. And then I am a made up name H a E made it.

Seb Alex 45:09

All right. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate.

Emma Hakansson 45:14

Thanks for helping me.

Seb Alex 45:16

thank you.

Emma Hakansson 45:16

you.