The People Leaders Podcast

Mastering Feedback and Difficult Conversations with Dr. Phill Krins

• Jan and Michelle Terkelsen • Episode 150

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In this episode, I am excited to welcome Dr. Phill Krins, an expert in workplace psychology, coaching, and facilitation. We delve into the significance of feedback and managing difficult conversations, especially for new and emerging leaders.

Dr. Krins shares his vast experience, touching on the importance of feedback for growth, role clarity, and employee engagement. We explore the barriers to effective feedback, such as workplace culture and manager time constraints, and offer strategies for giving and receiving feedback.

Additionally, Dr. Krins provides practical advice on setting up these conversations, managing emotions, and fostering a culture of open communication. Tune in to learn about creating growth opportunities through feedback and enhancing team dynamics.

Episode Highlights:

  • 00:30 Guest Speaker Introduction
  • 02:23 The Importance of Feedback
  • 04:12 Challenges in Giving Feedback
  • 06:36 Prerequisites for Effective Feedback
  • 10:33 Handling Emotional Reactions to Feedback
  • 17:09 Opening the Feedback Conversation
  • 21:48 Receiving Feedback Effectively
  • 26:42 Practical Tips for New Leaders
  • 30:07 Mediums and Current Projects
  • 33:09 Conclusion and Contact Information

Useful Links:
Dr. Phill Krins on LinkedIn - au.linkedin.com/in/phillkrins
Prometheus People Ignition Website - peopleignition.com
Dr. Phill Krins’ Uncomfortable Conversations Cheat Sheets - https://peopleleadersresources.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Dr_Phill_Krins_Uncomfortable_Conversations-Cheat_Sheets.pdf

Get in touch with us at info@peopleleaders.com.au
People Leaders Website - https://peopleleaders.com.au/
People Leaders on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/people-leaders-pty-ltd/
Connect with Jan Terkelsen on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/janterkelsen/
Connect with Michelle Terkelsen on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-terkelsen-creating-high-performing-teams-a992744/
Follow us on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/people.leaders

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the People Leaders Podcast, the audio resource for managers and business leaders creating high-performing teams. Join leadership and team development experts Jen and Michelle Turkelson each week as they explore both subjects from every angle. Through practical tips, valuable insights and compelling interviews with leadership experts around the world, you'll learn how to bring out the best in your staff and how to give your best as a leader.

Speaker 2:

So here we are for another episode. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. We have a guest speaker, dr Phil Krenz, and why I'm excited about it is because he is a coach, facilitator and workplace psychology professional and he talks about feedback and difficult conversations. Because he is a coach, facilitator and workplace psychology professional and he talks about feedback and difficult conversations and, as you know, michelle and I often talk about the power of feedback and the importance of leaders being able to have those difficult, courageous, big conversations. So, with a PhD in the group dynamics of extreme environments, 15 years experience as a leadership and organizational development consultant and as a founder of the largest live action role-playing organization, the southern hemisphere, phil puts people at the center of everything and today we're going to explore all those things human behaviour and really what it takes to give feedback and have those difficult conversations. So I'm really interested in having this conversation. Welcome.

Speaker 3:

Thank you, jan. It's lovely to be here and thankfully this is not one of those uncomfortable conversations. But yeah, it should be fun.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I was running a workshop for a government department only yesterday talking about difficult conversations, and we had a range of experience. There are a group of leaders and one person said, well, it's just a conversation, I have them all the time. And then the other person said, yeah, but you may not find them difficult, I actually do so. Just because one person doesn't find them difficult, it doesn't mean that the other person doesn't, for a range of reasons. So I just thought that was an interesting concept around how this person leads, you know, through their own dimension and their own paradigm. So let's talk about feedback. It is one of my favorite topics. And why do you think? Because I'd love to hear from your perspective why feedback is important, especially for new and emerging leaders.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, great, okay. So I think, fundamentally, feedback is important because without it we don't grow, we don't learn. I mean, if you're a kid throwing a ball against the wall, you learn through feedback. You learn because if the ball goes off in a funny direction or you don't catch it, you're getting feedback and that's fundamentally how we learn. It is an absolute essential to practice.

Speaker 3:

I think the other thing that makes it really important in the workplace is role clarity. So without feedback, it's really hard to know if we're on the right track with the work we're doing, and we know from decades of research that role clarity is essential for employee engagement. So actually feeling like you want to do the work and, at the end of the day, most of us we're spending a third not quite a third of our lives, but a significant portion of our lives at work and we want to be enjoying it. And ultimately, if you don't know what you're supposed to be doing, if you're unclear about what you're doing or whether the work you've done is good and up to the standard that's expected, then that's very dissatisfying and that's going to lead to disengagement and poorer mental health outcomes and wanting to leave, go to a different workplace and that sort of thing. So when you've got a really healthy feedback dynamic, it is really powerful. It's great for productivity, but it's also great for individuals receiving it, for both their growth and their engagement.

Speaker 2:

So we understand the benefits and why it's important. So why do you think it just doesn't happen as often as what we would want or what's ideal?

Speaker 3:

I think fundamentally it can be a bit of an uncomfortable conversation. Fundamentally it can be a bit of an uncomfortable conversation. It takes a bit of practice to get it right, to deliver it in a way that is not going to upset people, alienate people, and part of that is culture in a workplace. I worked for McKinsey and Company for a while and we had this norm which was the obligation to dissent, which basically mean you could be a a graduate sitting there with a partner in the room and if you thought the partner was talking rubbish you had an obligation to tell the partner why. Um not saying the norm was always lived up to, but it was definitely aspirational and it created a lot of permission to do that. So a lot of cultures don't have that permission. They have those kind of stricter kind of social norms or not upsetting the boat or that sort of thing, and that's probably more around the feedback between colleagues and so on.

Speaker 3:

I think in terms of the manager-direct-report relationship, often it's easier for the manager not to do it. Sometimes the manager's too, just too busy, or they think they're too busy and they're focused on the task aspect of, and the project management aspect of their role rather than the people management aspect. Especially when people have kind of found themselves in leadership positions without appropriate training or kind of growth and pathways towards that, there can be a tendency to focus on task things rather than people things. So, yeah, I think that's one of the big reasons and, yeah, it can be uncomfortable because you might be offering what might be criticism. So there's definitely an answer to giving it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so interesting around. You know the impact that culture has. So at the organisation that you just mentioned that, it was a bit of a permission for people to call out that behaviour. However, if you don't have the skill to do it, then that's the tricky part, because there is a certain ability and you know learning that comes with being able to give constructive feedback. So what are some of the prerequisites for getting feedback?

Speaker 3:

So I think, to start with, you need to.

Speaker 3:

If you're going to give somebody some feedback, say you're a manager and your staff member needs a bit of either correction or support and growth around what they're doing, you need to really kind of have your facts straight so you can't just be doing it based on a rumor. You need to have really clear details around what it is. You need to understand what the behavior is and you need to understand what the impact of that behavior is and also you need to understand what the solution is. So before you even enter into that conversation, you've got to be crystal clear on those three things. Conversation you've got to be crystal clear on those three things. The other thing that you really need to do is check yourself. So I think with any kind of uncomfortable, challenging, difficult situation doesn't even have to be conversations. I think it's always good to kind of check in with yourself and think about what it is that you're trying to achieve from it. Why are you going to have this conversation? Is it a productivity issue? Is it a mentoring, building the relationship? Do you just want to see this person grow and flourish in their role? Is there a serious crisis where this person's making serious errors that are having serious consequences on other people. But you need to. You need to start with yourself and I think that before you have a conversation, you need to manage your own emotions.

Speaker 3:

I think giving feedback from a place of elevated anger, fear, any negative emotion, even excitement, can be problematic, so you kind of have to slow things down. There's a lot of there's a lot of research around kind of slow cognition as opposed to fast cognition and this idea that if you want to do things right and mindfully, you need to slow down and really kind of think about that before you just jump in and correct someone. So, like the perfect example of not the right way to do it is somebody's done something and you just yell and scream at them. So I think I think it's really really important to do that. I think the other prerequisite is thinking about the timing of and the place of where you're going to give feedback.

Speaker 3:

At the end of a long, hard work day might not be the best time, because a person's already emotionally exhausted from the work they've been doing. But at the same time, 9am might not be great, because the person might actually be upset and they might need to go home or take a break and not face that sort of situation. And the other thing is not in front of a group of people in the middle of a meeting where they're going to lose face, potentially from the feedback. So I think, in terms of the prerequisites, you really kind of need to set the conversation up and plan for it in a way where you're going to set that person up for success but they're going to be most receptive to the message.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely Phil. So I often talk about Michelle and I, so we run workshops together sometimes and at the end of the day, you know, she might say, hey, can I give you some feedback? And I might say actually not right now. You know, like I just want to decompress, I'm interested but I'm just not ready to receive it. So it's actually asking permission. You know, just like you said, you want to be able to be, that person needs to be ready to receive it. And so just say you know I've set the intention, I'm really clear, I've got my date. You know my specific facts and details. I can articulate the impact, what happens when it goes wrong, or what you think goes wrong, like people get really emotional or they go into denial, or have you ever seen that happen and can you give us a little bit of a guidance, what you could do?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing I was actually going to add before around the prerequisites I think it's a recognition that it can be quite courageous to give feedback and to acknowledge that in yourself, and I think that courage is often a prerequisite. It gets easier the more you practice that and the more it's embedded in the culture and whatnot. But certainly, yeah, I think that's a real prerequisite.

Speaker 3:

And in terms of what you do when things are not going right, maybe the person bursts into tears, maybe they're angry, and I think that you you touched on something that was really critical, which is checking in even when you're having the session checking in are you open to having a feedback conversation right now, being really, really straightforward, really clear around the fact that this is a feedback conversation, and if this person's not in a place to receive feedback, there's probably not really a lot of point in really kind of hammering that nail. At that point, you can maybe explore their emotions around it and talk about it and still have a conversation which is more around how they're feeling and where they're at and what they need and so on, and hearing them and providing them with that time and support. But, yeah, if someone is really angry, if someone is really really upset and embarrassed, maybe you need their emotions to come back down as well. But yeah, fundamentally, I'd say first of all, once again, starting with yourself, try and breathe and calm down and whatnot, and manage your own emotions. I think it's really important to acknowledge their emotions. One of the worst things to say, though, is I understand, because we don't always understand. Instead, you can say things like I hear from what I'm hearing, you're feeling this, and you can kind of check with them Are they feeling that? I think another important thing to do is approach it from a position of curiosity and not judgment, so the last thing we want to do in any feedback conversation is make the person feel judged.

Speaker 3:

Ultimately, this is about curiosity. This is about we want to encourage growth. We don't want it's not a test that the person's failed. It's a pathway forward. And, okay, where are you at now? Can you grow into this space that I need you to be? Are you open to that? What do you want in the situation? And, yeah, fundamentally the demonstration of empathy. So there's a whole bunch of different things that we can do to show that and whether it's kind of that balance of eye contact and kind of mirroring someone else's body position and active listening, and so like giving them the chance to talk, yeah, and also, yeah, trying to frame things, trying to slowly shift the balance towards positivity and opportunity rather than risk.

Speaker 3:

So if someone's really angry or someone's crying, they're probably coming from a place of threat, they're feeling threatened in some way, and if you can help them move through that threat, then I think that's really useful. Move past that threat into a place of growth and, as I said, it might not be, it might actually be more than one meeting that you need to have for that and really kind of frame them around. That. I think one of the fundamental things that you need to do, though, is safety first. If someone is really upset about something, you still need to make sure you, them and other people in your work environment are safe, so that should always be there at the front of mind.

Speaker 3:

I had a guy once that I was literally talking off the wall. He wanted to jump on a plane and fly over from Sydney to Perth and beat up the local IT manager because the IT manager had been messaging him out of the hours too much, and this guy was just not okay about that. So, really kind of and this was a big guy. He'd won all sorts of martial arts. He was a scary guy, and I was aware when I was sitting there with him, that I also needed to be aware of my own safety. I also needed to be aware of his and his IT manager. Thankfully, they all came to a great resolution from that, but yeah, that was a it was a long, empathetic conversation, um, I think another thing to do as well is and this is probably more extreme situations, and we probably don't need to get into this here is knowing when to walk away, when this is not going to work, when this person is not open to doing things and if it's a serious performance issue, as is sometimes the case, if the person's not willing to address that, or you've now had six conversations about it and nothing's changed, yeah, how to engage the appropriate HR professionals to, yeah, move that person on.

Speaker 3:

And obviously, like, none of us want to see that sort of situation happen, but we have to be realistic about that as well. And another thing I'd say as well, if it's a really challenging situation, is make sure you're getting support yourself. So that kind of self-care after these sort of things is really important. And most larger organizations have an EAP and, yeah, if you don't have one of those where you're, working make sure you've got some support mechanisms because, at the end of the day, your mental health is paramount?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, and I love some of the tips that you shared. You know, like, safety is really important. Also, give them time to talk, because what I often find is people who are quite nervous, they tend to talk more and they won't allow the silence to happen so people can actually think about what it is that they need to say. And you mentioned it before. You know, like, slow things down, and what I often get asked is how do you open the conversation? You know, like, have you got a framework? What are some of the things that you could say? Because I think when you plan it, you could, you know like you could, practice the opening of the conversation and then you have the real conversation because you've already planned. Have you got any comments about that, philil?

Speaker 3:

yeah, and I think ultimately you don't want to beat around the bush you want to be totally authentic and open, and that doesn't mean like, oh, you really messed up on that project last week, we need to have a talk about it, like that would be a bad way to open that, but kind of yeah, oh and, and you also don't want to put the person on the spot.

Speaker 3:

One of the I think one of the worst things I've heard in performance conversations over the years as a practice is how do you think you performed this year? And? And then they'll all of a sudden the spotlights on the on the person and they're worried that what they say might not align with the manager. And so I think it is always good for like, especially in those, those kind of mid-yearly or end-of-year performance review conversations, which are fundamentally feedback conversations. I think that they can be yeah, they are a little bit different in terms of the way they're structured, but I think it's always good if the person receiving the feedback has had a chance to think about it beforehand. But in the situation, I think it is good to just open and say hey, I'd like to have a chat with you about this piece of work or your behaviour the other day. Are you open to having a feedback conversation around this, and I mean a lot of.

Speaker 3:

There's kind of that kind of common practice of the poo sandwich, where you start with something really positive and then you have the negative stuff, and then you have the negative stuff and then you have the positive again. I think people see through that. I think that's pretty. People will be like listening, going, oh, I'm just waiting for the poo and they're not even engaging about the positive stuff. I think the positive stuff should just be kind of drip fed through at the time when someone's doing good work in a genuine way, and maybe talk about that as well, about how to manage positive feedback. But I think that the positivity of the feedback should fundamentally be around this is an opportunity for growth. There's an acronym which involves swear words which I won't repeat here, but it involves, like another something opportunity for growth. But ultimately, like I think that's the best way to frame this that this is about helping somebody progress and really kind of showing that.

Speaker 3:

I think one of the other things that has really kind of come up in the research around this area is that when somebody provides feedback and they demonstrate genuine care not superficial care, genuine care and when and that can take a trusting, built-up relationship. It can take time. It's not always easy to give somebody feedback if you don't know them, obviously, like it's much easier when you know them really well. But if there's that kind of care that is communicated along with the message, that makes a massive difference. So, in terms of answering your question around opening things, I think that's a really great opportunity to demonstrate that Certainly the best manager I've ever had was great at that. I always felt like if there was anything I'd done wrong and she was having one of these conversations. I felt like she genuinely cared about me and genuinely wanted me to improve, and that's powerful.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I like that reframe. So instead of a difficult conversation, it's a growth conversation.

Speaker 2:

And so that's the intention behind this. You know the conversation that you're having, and you know like we've talked about the. You know the constructive feedback, and then there's obviously the flip side about acknowledging people for good work. However, we often people are interested in as a manager, how can I do it as effectively as I possibly can? And so we've talked about giving feedback. I'd like to hear your thoughts about actually receiving it and like how often? How would you frame it up? Is it important?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I think this is once again, I think a culture of feedback really helps with this.

Speaker 3:

So when other people, when you're seeing other people getting feedback and you're not the only one who's getting it because I'm in trouble or something like that then I think that's probably the framework within which people are going to be most able to receive feedback. I think there's definitely personality factors around it. I think, ideally, you want people to be able to be in that growth mindset of feedback isn't as an opportunity and, I think, another thing for but. But it's not always easy to do that, especially if you're busy and you're been working your butt off and trying to get this, all this work done, and you've been doing all these things and you think you've been hitting all these targets. Then your manager turns around. Oh okay, we need to have a conversation about this, and your initial reaction might be bloody hell. I've been working my butt off on this and I think it's really important whenever you're processing emotions, particularly negative emotions, is to allow yourself to feel those, and this kind of comes from a real mindfulness and positive psychology approach. But you need to go through that process in order to get to growth sometimes and giving yourself time and space, and whether that means crying or yelling at the sky or whatever, as long as you're not taking it out on anyone else, I think that it's important to acknowledge those emotions, feel those emotions and release those emotions if you want to. I think that one of the things that is important is kind of this toughness to take it and resilience. That is important is kind of this toughness to take it and resilience, and that's a challenging one, because we can't just kind of mandate that everyone becomes resilient. We're not in the 1980s or in the old, where it's kind of like toughen up kid, you just got to learn from the mistake, whatever. No, that's not where we want to be.

Speaker 3:

But if you can take in the information, not for and not take it personally, I think trying to separate the personal aspect out from the specific behavior. This is about the like try and just listen when they're, when you're being given all the information. Try and think about it strategically. What are the specific behaviours that I could change? What are the things that I could do? So I think that's really fundamental to it and I think the other thing and once again this is around, I guess building connection with your own manager and others in your workplace.

Speaker 3:

He's understanding that it's probably not that comfortable for your manager to speak back, or your colleague For someone to, and they're taking time out of their busy day to do this for you. So they're doing it not. They're not just going, oh stuff, this guy, we want him out. They're not doing that. They're saying no, I'm going to invest the time in this person to try and help them grow and improve for the business, for me, but also for themselves.

Speaker 3:

And recognising that and tapping into that and being open to that I think is really important. And part of that is, I think, around vulnerability. Vulnerability is really really important. This is another one of those things that comes out of positive psychology research that when two people can be vulnerable with each other, it really builds connection. It's one of the most amazing ways that two people can build connection is just have a really vulnerable conversation, talk about their, their challenges, their fears, their, their weaknesses, the things they want to grow on and work on, their traumas all these sorts of things. Stepping into that can be one way. Now I do say that with caution because if you're receiving feedback and the person giving the feedback doesn't have that care for you. That can be a risk to yourself, so that's a bit of a judgment call, but it's something that you can practice as well with safer people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's a good point. Like even using colleagues or friends asking, know, asking them safely, you know. Like to give you feedback and just see how that runs through your nervous system. Is there a ring of truth to it? You know all those kind of you know indicators. So what are three behaviours can new and emerging leaders practice over the next several weeks to get better at either giving or receiving feedback?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I think that's actually a perfect segue because that is something that you can practise. You can practise asking for feedback from anyone from your partner, from your friends, from your colleagues, from your manager and it can be about real things how did you like the way I made your coffee in the morning? I made you pancakes, did you like these ones, or would you have preferred them to be thinner? And there's all sorts of different ways that we can do that. So that's really something simple that we can do Ask for feedback and observe yourself while you're getting that feedback. Think about how you could receive that feedback in a more positive way. If there's one thing that people could practice over the next week, that would be perfect. Set yourself up on one of those habit stacking apps like Goalify or something like that, and give yourself a reminder to do it if you want to do it, or just set a reminder in your phone. All sorts of different ways, but that would absolutely be one.

Speaker 3:

Another one is asking permission to give feedback. Once again, it doesn't have to be in the workplace. It can be with friends, colleagues, family and practicing, like what you were saying that opening. How can you open and frame the conversation, and I think the other thing to that would be really good for people to practice is that pre-conversation preparation. So one of the things that you really might want to, you might want to just kind of jot down on a.

Speaker 3:

If you've got a direct report and you've got a weekly one-on-one which I highly recommend, by the way I think a fundamental part of management is to have regular one-on-ones, and if you're doing that less than every fortnight, then to me that's I mean, obviously like it's context dependent, but that's when you kind of really need to ask yourself whether you need to be checking in, mentoring, guiding it's connected with people but whenever you're having one of those one-on-ones would be to kind of go through that risk. Start with yourself what do you want out of the conversation? What are the specific behaviors that you have observed? You have evidence that you can provide feedback on what's the impact of those behaviors and whatever things the person can can do, so you jot those things down as a specific behavior, just on a piece of paper, in an email to yourself, however, but yeah, I hear you.

Speaker 3:

That would be my recommended three things.

Speaker 2:

Fantastic and we're so aligned as far as one-on-ones. You know from every leadership program that we have developed and run the single most impactful strategy, consistent and quality one-on-ones we've found. So, yeah, it's really interesting that you say that as well. So, phil, just to wrap up, is there anything else? And also, is there anything that you're working on right now?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So I think one of the other things to think about is the medium for which you're giving feedback, and I think anything that just involves text stay well away from. Don't even type that into an email around anything that might trigger emotions or anything like that. Even be careful saying, hey, we need to have a conversation about that piece of work. Phone calls, video calls are good and in person is always better, and obviously that can be tricky with remote work and people not coming into the office and our globalised workforces and whatnot. But wherever you can kind of have that ability to connect, read each other's body language and so on, tones of voice, I think is, yeah, really, really, really important.

Speaker 3:

As for things that I'm working on at the moment, I'm really focused on using the human synergistics diagnostic tools to drive leadership development, but also team development.

Speaker 3:

I feel like we've kind of had a bit of a missed opportunity in terms of team dynamics.

Speaker 3:

I think there's a lot of great stuff for organizational culture and engagement surveys and we've got great stuff for individual development, but when it comes to using kind of really robust metrics to understand team dynamics and then coaching teams around how to improve their behaviours, I think that there's a real opportunity for us to do more of that, and so, yeah, I've set up this team ignition program that uses the human synergistics, diagnostics, facilitated workshops, but then also once again using like Goalify to track habits, right Behaviors, so, like you might have a team, decide that I don't need to say hi to each other anymore.

Speaker 3:

What is that Just simple connection of a team? Decide that I don't need to say hi to each other anymore what's that just simple connection? And so then I and the rhythm would like a little reminder is to make sure we're doing that for a couple of weeks and then we talk about it two weeks later and say, okay, did we do this behavior that we all agreed was appropriate? But it's all informed by the science and all informed by their lived experience as well so that that's kind of where I'm at.

Speaker 3:

But, yeah, it's been great to have this opportunity to talk about feedback, because it's a really and maybe I can blame McKinsey for this all those years ago when I was working for them but I love this idea of kind of frank, fearless conversations. One of the models is actually called what is it? Ruthless Candor, where it's yeah, it's just it can be so powerful, but people do need to open up about it and they do need to practice it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, wonderful Phil. Well, I've taken notes and I really love that idea about. For me, the big takeaway was the growth opportunity. So instead of a difficult conversation, I'm having a growth conversation, so it kind of like really does change the paradigm. Thank you so much for spending the time with us and also sharing your insights we're're looking forward to. Are you on LinkedIn or?

Speaker 3:

I am indeed so if you look for Phil Crins, k-r-i-n-s on LinkedIn. You'll see me there or on my website, peopleregnitioncom.

Speaker 2:

Beautiful Okay, thanks, phil.

Speaker 3:

Thanks Jan.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for joining us on the People Leaders Podcast. For show notes and other resources, please visit us at peopleleaderspodcastcom. If you have a leadership or management question or subject you'd like covered on the podcast, please contact us at podcast at peopleleaderscomau. The People Leaders Podcast is brought to you by the Experts On Air Podcast Network.