How AI Is Changing Leadership: Insights from Leadership Expert Sally Foley-Lewis

Discover how middle managers can navigate AI transformation effectively, emphasising human-centred leadership and self-awareness. Join Sally Foley-Lewis, a seasoned leadership expert, as she shares insights on maintaining relevance, fostering trust, and enhancing emotional intelligence in tomorrow’s workplace.

Episode Highlights

• 00:00 How AI Is Changing Leadership
• 02:47 Navigating AI in the Workplace
• 05:54 Why Middle Managers Matter More Than Ever
• 08:45 Creating Behavioural Change with AI
• 11:41 How Leaders Can Empower Teams Through AI
• 15:08 The Human Skills AI Can't Replace
• 17:51 Preparing for the Future of Leadership

Connect with Sally

Sally Foley-Lewis offers a free community called the Middle Multipliers, designed exclusively for middle managers. She’s also exploring how middle managers navigate their unique leadership identity and role in the AI era. Reach out to learn more about her work and insights on leading with purpose in a digital world.

The Middle Multipliers: https://courses.sallyfoleylewis.com/communities/groups/the-middle-multipliers/home?invite=6a32319aa9c5c031cb15f63b

Research Project: Influence Without Authority, Role Ambiguity and Identity Conflict in Middle Managers: https://link.tekmatix.com/widget/quiz/Ng4YKh6WXeX5RZHIxzeb

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to the People Leaders Podcast, the audio resource for managers and business leaders creating high-performing teams. Join leadership and team development experts Jen and Michelle Turklsen each week as they explore both subjects from every angle. Through practical tips, valuable insights, and compelling interviews with leadership experts around the world, you'll learn how to bring out the best in your staff and how to give your best as a leader.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

They actually think something different because they're the ones sitting across from the people who are sometimes frustrated, confused, or just quietly doing workarounds, and they are absorbing all the friction. And that's why I have the pleasure of introducing Sally Foley Lewis today, because her, I suppose, you know, like your wish for middle managers is to not only move but also improve. And you boast that self-leadership is really helping people reach their potential. And so with a leadership development career spanning more than 15 years, Sally has also been a CEO, so she definitely walks the talk. A global award-winning certified professional speaker, facilitator, author, executive coach. She's authored multiple popular leadership books. And her book, The Productive Leader, received an endorsement from global personal development guru Brian Tracy. And the drive to support and skill managers comes from her own senior leadership experience, which I think is so valuable. Sally has worked with over 10,000 managers and leaders from medium-sized to global organizations in Germany, Middle East, Asia, North America, and across Australia. Sally has extensive qualifications and a wicked sense of humor, ability to engage and inspire while making people feel at ease. Welcome, Sally. And I can attest to that. You know, we've just had a quick conversation before we got on. And, you know, just your level of understanding and ease around this topic. I know it's going to be a juicy one. So in preparation for this, we surveyed our listeners before the conversation. And the thing that really surprised me was that people aren't really afraid of losing their job to AI. They're afraid of becoming irrelevant while still being employed. And from your work with middle managers and their teams, why do you think that that distinction matters? And what does that fear actually look like in a day-to-day environment?

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Yeah, thanks, Jay. And thanks for having me. I think the distinction's really important. And I think you're right. Yes, there's a cohort who will lose their job to AI. We've seen it in the articles, we've seen it in certain industries. But for the main part, I think most people are sort of waking up to this thinking of AI, you know, AI is not going to replace me tomorrow, but am I still adding value if AI is in the room? And so, and it's interesting because there's two sides to this coin in a lot of ways. I was recently in the Philippines sitting with a group of founders and middle managers, and a lot of them were talking about how it's interesting that when they have team meetings, it's like for some staff, they don't even bring their own thinking anymore. If it hasn't gone through the co-pilot, the chatty, the Claudie, the anythingy, then it's like they've stopped thinking. They're inability there's an inability to think now because it's almost they've given their confidence over to an AI tool. And then the other side of that coin is that we're getting worried or we're getting this perception that AI is going to replace leadership. And and I think sometimes that fear can show up in very subtle ways, very obvious ways, and people will hesitate to contribute in meetings because of those two elements, you know. And one of them being also that AI can produce an answer much faster. Is that answer accurate? Is that answer reflective of a full spectrum of thinking? We don't know because we haven't seen the answer yet. But um it's like they've stopped trusted, stopped trusting their own judgment and start second guessing. And you know, these are people who come with 20 plus years experience and subject matter expertise, and all of a sudden, because the machine said so, you know, those movies we watched 15 years ago are starting to come true. You know, and it's like they become passengers in their own career rather than the ones sitting in the driver's seat and taking control. And so I think the irony is that AI isn't replacing human value, it's actually changing where we as humans place the value. And um, you know, five years ago, your value might have been knowing the answer, particularly in a mid mid-level uh leadership role. You know, everyone comes to you, you've got the experience, you give the answer, we crack on with the rest of our day. But today, it's more about asking better questions, applying more keen, astute, discerning judgment. It's about making ethical decisions, it's about understanding context a lot more, uh, building relationships and actually helping others navigate that ambiguity. So I think AI can absolutely generate options, but it can't own the consequences.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Oh, so well said, Sally. And, you know, to your point, for me, what I got out of that is that it will never replace your intuitive knowing and your self-leadership, which is really about your level of self-awareness. And when you have self-awareness, you have all of those other qualities that AI can't replace. It can enhance but not replace.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Oh, precisely. And that's where the human middle manager remains critical to the organization. You know, they can help the team understand what's relevant, when it's relevant, and have that human-centered leadership piece for the engagement that's still needed to get the work done. The human-centered leadership is still critical. And there was a gentleman for who was from McKinsey in a Microsoft podcast who said as more AI comes in, as more technology comes in, the the need for human oversight and the need for human-centric leadership will also be amplified. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

So we're in the right job, Sally.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

I think so, definitely. And to your point, to your point about um emotional intelligence, I think, I think that it bodes well in both ways, right? As as we and as we encourage our leaders to have more emotional intelligence so they can see and read the room and have that social ability to see what's going on. But as we all as we both know, that someone who works on their emotional intelligence is actually building their resilience, building their confidence, amplifying their communication skills. So it actually, you know, you know, your your emotional intelligence, your EI goes with your AI.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

It's a lumber. And what I've also noticed is organizations are pouring so much money into AI right now. And what we've been told by our listeners and the people that we work with, you know, one of the biggest frustrations is that these programs teach people what AI can do without changing how anyone actually works. And so, in your experience, what's missing and what does genuine like that behavioral change around AI look inside, you know, like in a practical team environment?

SPEAKER_02 8:11

I think the piece missing is back to that leadership piece. You know, most AI training teaches, like you said, how to use the tool, but very little of it teaches how to redesign the way they work together. And I think the leadership piece then comes in with engaging other functions to support the team in addressing what behavior changes are needed. If we bring AI in to do X, Y, Z, then we may need to get people and culture in to help us to work through a job redesign or a function redesign in a way that ensures that we are value adding and not necessarily taking away. And I think real behavior change starts when we ask different questions. You know, instead of asking, who knows how to use Chat GPT, let's ask, uh, I wrote this down actually because I really wanted to say the words really when I thought about this question. Which parts of our work should humans own? Which parts should AI support, and how we make better decisions together? And so it's again, it's not neglecting or throwing AI out because of any sort of feelings that we may have about it, but it's putting AI after the human and after the behavior that we want to see and the culture we want to see in this team. And so I think AIs that are do uh teams that are doing AI well aren't necessarily using any massively sophisticated methodology. What I think or technology, I think what they're doing is having really regular conversations around experimentation, sharing prompting, reviewing AI outputs together, questioning any bias and checking that, and also continuously improving their workflows. And I don't think that's any different to what we should be doing anyway, but it's the AI overlay.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Yeah, like it's um it's a very highly intuitive tool, but it's still a tool. And when we see it from that perspective, then we have the confidence to actually work with it as opposed to us being at the response to it or you know, from from the other end of it.

SPEAKER_02 10:28

Absolutely. Yeah, and I to your point there, it's responding, not reacting.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Yeah. So middle managers are often the ones implementing the AI initiatives. And well, implementing so many things with the middle managers um that they didn't design. And this is the I think the the tricky part with middle managers. And they have to implement things that not only they didn't design, the team didn't ask for. And how do you help a manager who is generally really trying to bring their team along, but the team in any change management, you know, like uh quietly feeling left behind, uh, feeling like their judgment no longer counts. Because often, you know, with the senior executives, they've thought about it, they're prepaid their thinking. So they're kind of like along the journey, and then they expect everyone to be where they are without having that process. So, can you tell us, talk to us about your experience and you know what would what advice would you give a middle manager?

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Yeah, definitely. And I and it's so true, isn't it? The senior leadership have set the strategy, so they're already four miles ahead. So, and I think the first thing I would say to any manager, mid-level leader, is don't even try to sell the AI. Don't start there. What I would say to them is start by protecting your team's expertise and using the those messages around that. And I think it's because people don't necessarily, well, they won't resist technology nearly as much as they'll resist being and feeling devalued. So start with showcasing the value of that human and their expertise. And then I'd encourage managers to say something along the lines of AI can help us produce some work faster, but it will never replace your professional judgment. And in fact, your judgment is now more important than ever before because someone has to evaluate whether the AI is actually accurate to those points we said before, the bias, the accuracies, any context that might be missing. And so those reframes to the conversation, I think, are really critical. And then it's about involving the team in designing how they choose to get the AI to work and ask them where it can help remove frustrations, maybe. You know, it's not like we I've never I've never met a single person who is frustration free in their job. So why don't we start with that? And I mean, what a good way to to introduce a team into something that they may have been resistant about and start with how about we talk about what what we want it to take out. You know, where it introduces risk is another area, you know. How do we how do we help the human oversight be a non-negotiable? It has to be there, and reassuring them of that. Another area I think is when um when people help to shape the process, you know. Um I've seen it happen quite a lot where a manager gets excited, they've got an initiative, and they they they create so much collateral and they do so much of the prep work and almost and they write the the strategy, they write the action plan for it, they go and order the resources for it, and they get all excited thinking that that's actually helping the team to then implement. Well, the the and and then they get really annoyed and frustrated because they haven't the team haven't been part of any of it. And they feel like once again, you just you you're not having any part of this ownership. I don't trust you, I've done it all. You just do like a little robot, like an AI robot, right? Yeah, and so I think wherever we can as leaders is sh help our people to be part of shaping the process. Help them to feel like they've got as much ownership over from A to B with implementation of AI into the work, then the more they're going to lean into it and stop feeling like AI is happening to them. Rather, they're they're controlling how it's being used with them.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Yeah. Because everyone wants autonomy over their life. And the more that we can accommodate that, the more they're gonna, I don't know, that that's why engagement is so important, isn't it? You know, because I have value, you know, I'm actually adding to my work life and to, you know, my relationships and you know, the output that I'm doing. So if a middle manager listening right now has a team that's um technically using the AIs, but they haven't changed, you know, what's the real conversation they need to be having with them? Like how would you bring it up? Would you bring it up in a one-on-one, in a team meeting? Like, how would you actually broach the subject?

SPEAKER_02 15:22

Well, I probably would um I'd definitely have a team conversation, but I wouldn't focus it on the AI. Again, start back with the humans and maybe start uh the conversation around the work and and maybe it's subgrouping, it depends on the context, I guess, of the organization. But I'd start with with the first question being which parts of your work feel really repetitive? You know, and then where do you spend the most amount of your time that doesn't actually create value? And you can see we're heading towards that frustration removal piece again, right? And then if AI gave you two extra hours per week every week, where should that time be reinvested? You know, so we're giving people permission to really critically review their work. And the and the funny thing is that when people feel and understand they've got permission to do that, and there's no backlash for that, you know, it's actually a really good robust conversation. It's it's one of these moments where the sense of weight being lifted is phenomenal. And here's and here is a tool that can help the mundane and the repetitive get done faster with less pressure. So that the the real good quality expertise, professional thinking has more space and scope. Because we all know and we've all seen the that when big organizations who got rid of administrative support because that was a cost, meant that the administrative work got landed on senior leaders' ta desks and their strat their strategic thinking time got chewed up. You know, so we're actually kind of in a position to reverse that in a lot of ways. And I think the last question around if you if if AI could give you two hours back, what would you do and where would we start? Where would we invest that two hours? I think it's powerful because it really does shift that conversation away from the efficiency, productivity, time, energy management type conversation into where do you want to have impact? And that's a purpose, you know, that's in that gets them in the gut then and and and really helps them to connect with this is more than just saving time. This is actually, you know, what is your legacy? What do you want to leave behind? What is it you really want to achieve? And so you get to use that time for coaching, for innovation, for customer conversations, for problem solving those problems that you know are important but aren't quite urgent enough. A lot of time for relationship building and finding out what's really going on, you know, all those things that actually create value.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

So and the other thing, I suppose, when you're talking, when we were talking about that, Sally, is that AI can actually create a benchmark for you, and then you can then use that to then it enhance everything that that you're doing. But it all comes down to those purposeful conversations. And that's what I'm noticing is that leaders have to have a certain level of EQ, a level of enhanced communication skill and then courage to actually ask these questions as opposed to just focus on the task as opposed to the person and what it is that they want to come at. Because if I was to ask someone, you know, like what is it that you're um, you know, like what is the value add? Um, how can you become indispensable? And people go, I don't know. You know, it's then being masterful enough to ask those questions, but also to know your people. And by having your regular one-on-ones, understanding what their strengths are, then you can start to peel away what some of those, I don't know, uh, possibilities are for people. And that takes a bit of work.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I think it, and I think one of the things with that is, and you raise a good point, um, if there's no trust to start with, then it's going to be a harder, harder push up the hill. So, you know, even if it's about starting with, you know, building those relationships, strengthening the bonds, having looser conversations around what's going on as a leader trying to work, just just be more engaged and and be more interested, you know, and that way people will find you interesting and therefore lean in and participate, you know. Um, and to that to that point, I totally agree. And here's the other thing with that there's there's there's this little nuance that I think that goes with it, is particularly for mid-level leaders, they don't often feel as though they've got permission. At dollars to donuts, you ask a senior leader, what do you think of if if I did this, they'd be like, get on with it. Lock yourself out.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Particularly if they trust you and they know you're a good person and you're not out to do do harm. So it's almost like I remember hearing this line, and I really do want to attribute it, attribute it to Meg Wheatley, because I think it was her who said it in the art and science of leadership many years ago, around proceed until apprehended.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

You know, if you're if you're, you know, most people show up and want to do good work. Most people show up and actually want to have a sense of achievement and contribution. With that in mind, if you fall into that 98%, proceed until apprehended.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Yeah, yeah. I think that's what should come with when people are in an acting role as well. You know, like they kind of like just, I don't know, that it's it feels like they stagnate. But what is the only way that you can then show people what you are capable of by actually proceeding with things that you know someone else wouldn't or couldn't or wouldn't have the courage to?

SPEAKER_02 21:28

Jen, I want to add, can I please add to that? I want to give a case study to that, and it's my my own. So when I was um I was coming back from living overseas, my first expat stint, and I was given an opportunity to have an eight week internship inside a government department, and um and the the boss gave me this big report, it was a needs analysis, and said, Read this and tell me what you think we should do. So I read it and I then I said, This is some of the ideas I have, but I'm only here for eight weeks. And she leaned in, she said, pretend like You're here forever. What would you do then? If you if this was a permanent position, what would you do? And then I was like bla blah blah blah blah blah blah. And she said, Well, let's go. It was it was that mindset shift. And so I've done that in in all of my positions where I've had the opportunity to act up or or be in a temporary role. I've walked in acting like it's mine forever. Unless I was pulled up, but I proceeded until apprehended.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the epitome of accountability. You know, like we get feedback all the time. How can I hold my people to account? How can I, you know, um ensure that they're more accountable? It it's really ownership, isn't it? And people have to feel that their leaders trust them in order to be able to do that. So it is a bit of a um you know a combination of things that are required. The environment needs to and the culture also needs to invite that. You know, like that's the expectation. That's the that's the way we do things around here. Look, you have so much experience, Sally. Like I've got so many questions, and I'm thinking about people who are listening to this who are thinking about what is gonna make me different, what is gonna make me indispensable, um, not just you know, employable. And is there something that a leader can help their people build? And what do you think an individual can actually do?

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Yeah, I think you you're talking about relevance, and I think that relevance um has always been a choice. You know, AI can accelerate it or decelerate it, but you know, AI has accelerated the need, I think, to make um to make relevance our choice. And so people who'll thrive aren't necessarily the most technical, they're the ones that can combine that with curiosity and and good judgment. So don't give your judgment over, don't second guess yourself. Sit beside the AI and lean into it with a more critical and curious mindset. You know, I think those who are really going to succeed and still stand out in the crowd of those who are really churning through and using AI are the ones that are still asking questions. And when you ask questions and then you you practice the the asking of questions, you then learn to ask better questions. The ones that um learn continuously, never to me, if the minute you stop learning, you're dead. Um that's a bit harsh, but you know. I think we need to be lifelong learners. Um and the ones that know that trust is critical, trust is is is a it's the undercurrent to everything. So they're the keys to that relevance piece, they're the keys that are going to help the individuals to stay relevant and remain forefront in the relevance of an organization. Um, and I think they they solve problems that they don't necessarily have the obvious answers. And what I mean by that is it's people who can see where they can help other people succeed. And and I think that's a bit of a secret in a lot of ways. Particularly for mid-level leaders, I often say to middle managers, your people's success is your success. So what are you doing to help them raise their their capability, their courage, and their confidence? And then AI is the capacity one, right? Without losing the other three. So AI may automate the task, but leadership is still profoundly human. And I think where leaders can also build the leadership in others, in their people, is really critical. So I think where leaders can create the environment where people feel safe to experiment, and that's a hard one. I I'll fully concede it's not always that easy to do in a lot of in a lot of cultures of organizations. But if you can create the safe space to experiment, encourage people to learn, challenge them to think critically, and then recognize them for doing the growing, not just the performing or getting the KPI. I think that's a big one as well. And as individuals, right, as an individual contributor, employee, you have to take some responsibility too. It's not just on the organization's shoulders or your boss's shoulders to help you stay relevant. How are you leaning in as well? You know, because nobody can outsource their own relevance.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful, Sally. Like there were so many gold nuggets there. You know, like even so, first thing, you know, the this idea of experimenting. So experimenting in a team meeting, in a one-on-one, in the way in which you craft a presentation, like there are always ways that you can enhance that, you know, and to experiment with your style. Uh, the other thing about questions, I'm big on the ability to ask questions. And I often say, you'll know you are up leveling your uh questioning technique when someone says, Oh, I never thought about that, or oh, that's a different perspective. Because you're actually inviting them to think at a different level. And when you are doing that and you're getting that feedback, then you know that you have practiced. And the only way that you're gonna practice is to be discerning, to be curious, to be a lifelong learner. You know, like these aren't things that are just um in the the realm of how to manage AI. This is leadership.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Definitely, definitely. And it's not about how do I compete with AI, it's actually how do I become the kind of person who knows how to get the very best out of my people and AI.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Yeah, yeah, the the and this and that. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Sally. I've really enjoyed the conversation as and I've taken pips of notes as well. And um, is there anything that you would like to share with our listeners? Anything that you're working on, um, how they can be in touch with you, what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Oh, thank you so much for that offer. I do have um a free community called the Middle Multipliers, and and uh you know I'm more than happy to provide the link for that if people want to come on in. It truly is only for middle managers, and it's just a space that's away from traditional social media where there's a lot of ads. So there's that. And also I'm doing some research into how middle managers have this challenge with their identity being in the middle with leadership identity, role authority, and those sorts of elements. So um, I'd love to be able to share that link if people are if if there are people in middle management who would like to give their input, their perspective, I'd love for that as well. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

We hope you enjoyed today's episode of the People Leaders Podcast. For show notes and other resources, please visit us at People LeadersPodcast.com. While you're there, you can subscribe for future episodes so you can continue your own leadership journey. And please be sure to share this and other episodes with your friends and colleagues.