Home Remodel Struggles and Million-Dollar Nightmares with Andy Apter

Ready for a heartwarming chat with a man who’s as passionate about revving Dodge Vipers as he is about successful business transitions and remodeling industry? Our guest for the episode, Andy Apter, the president of the National Association of the Remodeling Industry (NARI), is just that! Moreover, we confront customer service issues that often plague small businesses, throwing in a real-life $4 million project nightmare involving a couple battling a health crisis. Did you know our amazing voices can go beyond just the microphone? Yes, we have video! Subscribe to our YouTube channel here!

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Andy’s Links:

•  LinkedIn | @Andy Apter

•  Website | https://apterremodeling.com 

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GOLD NUGGETS:

(00:00) - A Small Business Owner’s Journey

(02:38) - Andy Apter Intro

(13:14) - Transitions and Growth in Business

(22:23) - Finding Mentors and Scaling Down Business

(30:20) - Dodge Viper Collection

(40:15) - Customer Service Issues and Contractor Nightmare

(44:47) - Stories, Job Satisfaction and Motivation

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Previous guests on The Small Business Safari include Amy Lyle, Ben Alexander, Joseph Sission, Jonathan Ellis, Brad Dell, Chris Hanks, C.T. Emerson, Chad Brown, Tracy Moore, Wayne Sherger, David Raymond, Paul Redman, Gabby Meteor, Ryan Dement, Barbara Heil Sonneck, Bryan John, Tom Defore, Rusty Clifton, Duane Johns, Beth Miller, Jason Sleeman, Andy Suggs, Chris Michel, Jon Ostenson, Tommy Breedlove, Rocky Lalvani, Amanda Griffey, Spencer Powell, Joe Perrone, David Lupberger, Duane C. Barney, Dave Moerman, Jim Ryerson, Al Mishkoff, Scott Specker, Mike Claudio and more!

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If you loved this episode try these!

• Finding a Profitable Niche | Todd Howard

• How to Successfully Exit Multiple Businesses | Dominic Rubino

• More Balls than Brains can lead to Success with Rocco Sinisgalli

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Have any questions or comments? Connect with me here!

Transcript

Chris Lalomia: 0:00

It's hard to sell while you're doing the work. So how'd you get? You had to get the second job in the third job. How did you start to grow?

Andy Apter: 0:06

Yeah, it was a lot of late nights, it was seven days a week. It was just, you know, never giving up, just working non-stop. Just it's a hunger that you have in your belly. When I worked for the framing carpenter that I worked for, I saw what he was doing and I looked at this guy and I thought, you know, I want to be this guy. I mean, I wanted it so bad and I almost should.

Chris Lalomia: 0:30

Welcome to the small business safari where I help guide you to avoid those traps, pitfalls and dangers that lurk when navigating the wild world of small business ownership. I'll share those gold nuggets of information and invite guests to help accelerate your ascent to that mountaintop of success. It's a jungle out there and I want to help you traverse through the levels of owning your own business that can get you bogged down and distract you from any of your own personal and professional goals. So strap in adventure team and let's take a ride through the safari and get you to the mountaintop Fallon. We're back and here we go. The small business safari continues to march up the hill on its way to that successful mountaintop we're all trying to get to and it's good to be back. Just a week later we're back at it doing it again.

Chris Lalomia: 1:17

I know it feels like it's been a week selling, I mean, for the first time ever. You're the one who was gone.

Alan Wyatt: 1:22

I know I actually, but I had an event. It wasn't just gallivanting around the world like, like you do. Where was the event? It was in Wilmington, north Carolina, but it was a wedding. I mean, you know, it was a noble thing I did, as opposed to Vegas Uh, I could poke go.

Chris Lalomia: 1:38

Yeah, everything else that you do. Yeah, I just got done booking some more.

Alan Wyatt: 1:41

Yeah. That was we did swing through charleston. Yeah, one of my favorite food cities, nice. What you have there, where'd you go? Lots of shrimp and grits. I don't even want to tell you my favorite place on the air, because. I just wanted to stay local.

Chris Lalomia: 1:54

All right, well, thanks for I guess again we won't be getting another sponsor here, but let's get after. We've gotten some great feedback on the podcast. Before we introduce our guest Got uh, had a person reach out to me, uh, through linkedin and said chris, I've been following your podcasts, like all the information you're sharing with everybody. You've given me the courage. I am retiring from the us air force and I'm going to start my own business. I had entertained getting into other companies but I decided I'm going to do my own and thank you for being the inspiration and keep doing what you're doing on the podcast.

Alan Wyatt: 2:29

That's unbelievable. What's his first name? Let's give me a shout out.

Chris Lalomia: 2:31

All right, uh, now you're putting me on a spot. I have to look him up again. I think his name was mark.

Alan Wyatt: 2:36

Well, thank you for your service. First of all, while chris is looking you up, Yep, I got it.

Chris Lalomia: 2:42

I do you know what? I wasn't very prepared, but I will be prepared in just a minute. Did I fluster you? You did? I'm off my game and I haven't even got an introduced Andy yet. I mean, come on man.

Alan Wyatt: 2:51

That's really cool, though. I love the way, uh, the listeners reach out yeah.

Chris Lalomia: 2:56

I mean on a regular basis. I got another voicemail this morning from another guy that I'm gonna call back Uh tomorrow, um, because he wanted to kick some ideas around based on what he'd heard on the podcast. So I I have. It is not mark, it is Matt Denton.

Alan Wyatt: 3:14

Well, Matt, thanks for being a listener and thanks again for your service.

Chris Lalomia: 3:17

Yeah, matt, I'm sorry and I hope.

Andy Apter: 3:19

I hope.

Alan Wyatt: 3:19

Matt keeps us posted. I mean, he's talking about writing a business plan. Yep, he's doing it all, so I do, I do hope he keeps us posted.

Chris Lalomia: 3:26

Yeah, that's exciting, yeah, so keep it up out there, keep doing the thing, keep listening, keep following, keep subscribing. I found out that on spotify, where actually our numbers are going up, up, up Uh believe it or not, because I thought apple was the only place that people went to listen to podcasts but no, spotify is starting to pick up. For. So we appreciate you, we appreciate this and let's go get started and get some more Gold nuggets. Today we have Andy after who is the nary president? If you've been following the podcasts, you know that I'm a member of nary here in atlanta.

Chris Lalomia: 3:57

Nary is the national association of the remodeling industry. But what I've really enjoyed about my time with this group and you've heard me talk about it Is that I get to meet so many cool people who know how to run businesses and we get to bounce ideas off each other and we know we're doing right by people when we're out there being contractors in the world and we're doing the right things as opposed to a lot of people doing the wrong things. So andy is a remodeler in the dc area. I'm going to have him Tell me exactly what cities and in a minute. But he has also stepped up and he's volunteering he's this is a volunteer role, not getting paid for it to be the president of the entire North american national association of the remodeling. That's a big job?

Alan Wyatt: 4:36

I think so, especially with people like you. I'm sure he's had to write you up or sanction you a couple of times.

Chris Lalomia: 4:41

He did come personally visit us in georgia just because he had heard about the loud bouts in georgia.

Andy Apter: 4:45

Believe it or not?

Chris Lalomia: 4:45

I was only one of many in our group, but we're pretty active and that just shows our passion. But andy after after remodeling welcome, thank you.

Andy Apter: 4:54

Um, yeah, there was a lot of loud mouths in that room. You're bored, but I enjoyed it very much. It was a great visit.

Chris Lalomia: 5:04

That's great, uh, andy. So before we get started, uh, we asked for bios and had shots from everybody, and Andy writes back its bio and it starts off with born in germany. I'm like whoa, so you're a german Was.

Andy Apter: 5:18

I became an american citizen when I was in third grade, but I was a german before that and, uh, I didn't realize what a big deal it was until I came back to the class After becoming a citizen and my teacher promptly had me go in front of the class Explain what happened, um, a lot of which I didn't understand and know that young. But uh, yeah, I became a citizen when I was, uh, in third grade.

Alan Wyatt: 5:41

That's really cool. Do you have a lot of family back there still?

Andy Apter: 5:44

I do. I have cousins and aunts and uncles stolen in uh germany, in the uh south, uh western part of germany Near frankfur. Do you speak german? Yeah, I speak, and I'm this in dutch. Ah beautiful, if I even understood.

Alan Wyatt: 5:59

That was good. I speak a little german. Oh, thank you for translating from me.

Chris Lalomia: 6:03

I'm so I'm so happy we did that. Um so uh, when you obviously came with, your parents moved over here. Uh, is that how you got here?

Andy Apter: 6:12

so my mother remarried and uh, she remarried to a guy that came to germany. Uh, he was studying to be a dentist is um, and before he left he was stationed in germany, he was in the army. And before he left, his mother said whatever you do when you're over there, don't marry a german gal. And uh, what did he do? He met my mother and married. My mother Told my mother a lot of gi's probably told this story Um, I'm gonna go back to america and then I'm gonna send you to america. I'm gonna have a plane ticket for you and your son to come to america. And he left, and but he was there when we got to the airport in america, so he held up his hand to the bargain.

Chris Lalomia: 6:52

Oh, cool. Wow, Look at that All right. So, uh, did you? Are you always been from the dc area and, um, or did you end up moving towards there?

Andy Apter: 7:02

I looked in marilin Um most of my life. Uh once, once I came to uh the united states and uh, I've lived in marilin and uh, right now I'm in anapolis, marilin, which is about 20 minutes outside of dc. Got you?

Alan Wyatt: 7:17

on the chesapeake day beautiful.

Chris Lalomia: 7:19

Yeah, yeah, beautiful area and if you can't see this on the podcast, but he's uh coming to us live from his house and it's beautiful, but I don't think that looks like marilin to me.

Andy Apter: 7:29

So this is sarasota, sarasota, florida. I have another home in sarasota, florida beautiful.

Chris Lalomia: 7:36

So let's get into the. How you got into the remodeling business. Uh, is it something you grew up into? Is it something you somebody inspired you to do, or you're doing something completely different? How'd you get into it?

Andy Apter: 7:47

You know it was funny because growing up my dad and I we built a playhouse outside one time and we were, you know, putting it together and you would think, wow, you know, and once I put something like that together I'd have an interest in it and I really didn't. But I think I kind of fell into it. I was, uh, in between high school and college and well, between high school I uh worked construction. And then between when I went to college, when I came back from college, I worked construction and I had this brilliant idea with my dad that I told my dad that I want to take a year off and, you know, work construction, and my dad said, well, we're gonna live. And I said, oh, I'm gonna live here. He said, no, you're not. So I ended up kind of fallen into it. I took to it really quickly. I was really lucky that I apprentice under a master framer probably to this day the best framer I've ever seen and I was the grunt that was carrying the lumber and learning on-site. The carpenter I work for didn't want to teach me because he knew if I learned I'd leave. And one thing I felt every day at the end of the day carrying all that lumber was that I knew that that house wouldn't be there if I didn't carry the lumber, so I had like ownership of the position and respect for it.

Andy Apter: 9:02

I apprentice for maybe two years. After two years I told my boss I was cleaning offices at night for an attorney who incorporated me because I knew I wanted to go into business for myself. And I said to my boss I said you know, I got this job coming up putting a hip roof on a flat roof gas station, and I think I'm gonna go into business for myself. And he said hey, really. And I said yeah. He said hey, good for you. If it doesn't work out, you can always come back. So that's all I needed to hear and I never came back. I've been doing this for 42 years now. Holy cow.

Alan Wyatt: 9:38

What did your dad want you to do?

Andy Apter: 9:40

My dad being a professional. My dad is a retired dentist and my mother and father both wanted education for me. They felt like college was the way to go and part of the thing of where you're gonna live when you take a year off. My dad was trying to scare me back into going to college for me, but I, you know, I grew up in a white collar family. My dad provided really well for our family and I knew that I wanted the same and I saw the opportunities early on. I saw it in the construction field. I've always been a really good salesman and I've been a good craftsman and I was able to hire a lot of good employees and I and I've had a very good career for, like I said, over 40 years.

Alan Wyatt: 10:26

Is that a rare thing to be a great craftsman and a great salesman all in the same time? I think so, andy. What do you think?

Andy Apter: 10:32

Yeah, the business part of it came later for me. I, you know there's a saying the school of hard knocks. You know I've paid a lot of prices for my mistakes and for what I didn't know, and that's one of the things I really like about nary is the education that you get, the certifications you get, the training you get and the ability that you have a network and a place to learn. And I wish I wish I hadn't had that when I started off, because it would have saved a lot of headaches. But you know, better late than never, right?

Chris Lalomia: 11:08

Yeah, no, you've got. Obviously did, did. Well, you started off. You had one job. You say, hey, I'm gonna go start my own business with one job. But you're like, you know I'm gonna fall back on my skills of sales. But at the time you were a crew of one, maybe had another person. It's hard to sell while you're doing the work. So how'd you get? You had to get the second job in the third job. How did you start to grow?

Andy Apter: 11:30

Yeah, it was a lot of late nights, it was seven days a week. It was just, you know, never giving up, just just Working non-stop. Just it's a hunger that you have in your belly. When I worked for the framing carpenter that I worked for, I saw what he was doing and I looked at this guy and I thought, you know, I want to be this guy. I mean, I wanted it so bad and I almost shook because I just knew that I could fill that role. I knew that I could do that and I and I love, I loved what I was doing and, ironically, now being a remodeler, remodeling contractor, which I've been exclusively doing for the past 25 years, having that carpentry background ironically came as a great skill set, because that's probably the heart of the home and the bones of the home and one of the most important things and Everything else revolves around the carpentry.

Andy Apter: 12:28

So if I had gotten a really good Education and electric or in plumbing or something else, it wouldn't serve me as well as the carpentry did. So part of that I probably fell into and the other was again just the hunger and the drive to learn and to succeed.

Chris Lalomia: 12:47

That's I mean to know that at 19, 20 years old and to still be in the same business. Clearly the two of us can't say that we did the same thing.

Chris Lalomia: 12:57

No we've been all over the board trying a lot of different things and a lot of people have. And then we talked about that. You got to build your school, your skill set. You got to build your toolbox. You got to put those skills in that toolbox. And I, you know, obviously I started my business a lot later in life, but you stayed with it, you stuck with it. You started to grow. When did you start to bring on your first employees and how old were you them?

Andy Apter: 13:18

No, it was pretty quick, probably within a year, the first year I and I actually believe it or not I still have that one of those first employees with me to this day.

Alan Wyatt: 13:31

No way, that's amazing.

Chris Lalomia: 13:33

I'm gonna go in the not believing. No no, oh my gosh, I mean for his next turnovers we have in this business, which is really difficult. You know that you still have your very first employee.

Andy Apter: 13:46

Yeah. I used to pick him up from his house when we started because he didn't have car and he answered an ad in the newspaper for a carpenter's helper and a great skilled craftsman to you know today, and I I've taught him everything he knows.

Chris Lalomia: 14:05

I could like say yeah, oh my gosh, that is amazing. Well, a testament to you and your. In your demeanor, you can tell in a way you take care of people. So, as you, you were growing, you started to add people. When did you start to get off the tools?

Andy Apter: 15:36

Probably in the mid 90s, I got to the point where it was more work to manage the business. Also, I ended up building an office for myself. I ended up buying a piece of property and putting a building on it and working out of it. So I retired my pouch and my hammer because it was a full-time job. The business end is definitely a full-time job. It was a full-time job keeping the books. Full-time job. Going out and selling the business. Full-time job managing the business, managing the customers. As you know, you wear a lot of hats in this business and the one thing you don't want to do is get too many hats where you can't function. And I realized that I wasn't doing the carpentry well anymore and I wasn't managing that part of it. So it almost came natural that transition, because it got to the point in my career where it needed to be done and I did it. It's like when I started, it was something I just you just did.

Chris Lalomia: 16:42

So as you grow in a business we always talk about this you always go through transitions. So for you it was putting down the pouch and then starting to manage the business. As you go through those different periods and you've started to grow. You went from a framing contractor to a remodeler. What would you say was the hardest transition for you to make throughout these 42 years?

Andy Apter: 17:03

The bookkeeping end of it for me. You know, having a good set of books, understanding my financial statement, checking the financial statement on a monthly or every two weeks, knowing something that was going to go awry before it would go awry, having that skill set from the numbers, that was the hardest part for me.

Alan Wyatt: 17:28

Was the business side just all learned on the job as you were going, or did you have somebody in your ear guiding you a little bit?

Andy Apter: 17:36

No, you know it's funny. Along the way in my life I've had mentors and I never even realized they were mentors until they were gone, until later in my career I thought, you know, this guy used to talk to me and used to give me advice, and I didn't even realize it was advice when he was doing it for me. At one point I had another builder that was a friend of mine. I was on a commercial project at the time and I wasn't getting paid by the GC. And I was just having a casual conversation with this other builder friend of mine and he says oh my God, this guy's you know they're bad news. He said how much do you owe you right now? And I told him he reaches into his desk, he brings out this big checkbook, he writes a check, hands it over the desk to me and he goes here you go.

Andy Apter: 18:22

I said what's this? He goes well, this is just until the guy pays you back. And I said well, he may not pay me back for a while. He says you're good for it, don't worry about it. I mean that blew me away. I mean it was a pretty good size check too. At the time I think I had it was a commercial trim project and I think I had 20 carpenters on that job working on that job. It was a, it was a sport and racket club and we were installing cherry Wainscott, cherry crown, cherry doors, cherry windows. It was a high end mill and millwork project and I was in over my head because I was freaking out when that guy wasn't paying you.

Andy Apter: 19:02

Yeah, of course I was freaking out because the backside of the story is I did have a line of credit and I tapped into the line of credit and I didn't have anything left on the credit and this was a big DC contractor and they paid their people 90, 120 days out. That's just the way it worked and I didn't know that. Going in, and here's this guy who's my mentor, who believes in me and trusts in me, gives me a check site, unseen. I mean it tells me more of what he thought about me than I understood, of how he felt about me at the time and of course I paid him back. The contractor did make good with me on the end. The GC made good with me on the end. At that time I was a subcontractor. And again, these people come in and out of your lives and you don't realize it until they're gone most of the time of how important they are. A big piece.

Alan Wyatt: 19:57

Is your role in Neri, your way of paying it forward.

Andy Apter: 20:02

You know it's funny that you asked me that yeah, it is. I always felt a desire in my heart to do something good, to do something right for my industry, because I believe in it and I feel like there's a lack of professionals in it and I want to give to the industry. And when I signed on, before I became president, I was a secretary. It's, you know, a five year term to go through the process of being an officer. And, neri, when I signed on, I always thought what am I going to do when I become president? What am I going to do? What's my legacy? What am I going to do?

Andy Apter: 20:38

But the irony is, what I did when I was treasured made a big difference. What I did when I was secretary made a big difference, what I did when I was president-elect. So there is nothing that I have to wake up in the morning and say, well, this is my goal, this is what I have to do. I've already done so much for the industry and for Neri and continue to do that. And it's just natural when you're in that leadership role, when you need to step up and when you need to do make the right call and the right decision, that you do it, and so I'm grateful that I'm in this position and I do feel like I'm making a difference. It may be a lot of small differences, it may not be different to someone else, but it's different to me, so it's it's been very rewarding and very fulfilling.

Chris Lalomia: 21:25

I have to say it's Neri, as an organization is nationwide. Here in Atlanta We've got a very strong chapter currently in obnoxious chapter. Obnoxious and loud. By the way, don't forget loud, very loud. I wonder who's the loudest, I believe, or not. I am not always the loudest there is. Well, we've met one of the louder ones, the ones who calls a seasoned yes we're not old, we're seasoned.

Andy Apter: 21:50

Exactly You're talking about.

Chris Lalomia: 21:51

Yes, you do, amanda. Amanda has been listening to podcast. I'm going to tell her that we give her a shout out here. But again, that's when I was actually. I was asked to come in and help. This is how I got into it. I was attending the Neri events and I'm running my business and, selfishly, I'm trying to run my business and Neri is supposed to be giving me things. I'm not supposed to be giving them things back to you, asking if Andy was paying it forward. I was, I was, I got they stuck me in. And here's how we did it.

Chris Lalomia: 22:19

Mark Galey, you were there to take, I was, I was take, take, take. And then Mark says Chris, can you, can you help me out with our finances? And I got in there and started digging in and they were atrocious. The books were horrible. We were losing money as an organization, we're digging into our reserves, and so I started digging in and digging in and he goes well, I think you should be the head of the Finance Committee. And I was. Well, no, I'm just here to fix the books. I get to get back to run my business. And then he goes no, I think you should do it. So I did. So he asked and I let, and I did, and now I'm the vice president and on my way to becoming a president one day here, and yeah, it is. Andy said this and I want to talk about that. It's here after Andy's job. Oh no, no, that national one. Oh no, no, no, just the local back to back to be. I got sucked into this, alan no kidding.

Andy Apter: 23:05

It's been great.

Chris Lalomia: 23:07

No, it's been good, and then I tell you what it's sometimes reluctant leaders are the best ones.

Chris Lalomia: 23:12

Yeah, well, I mean now, and I really enjoy and we talk about being allowed, of Noxious Group. I'm telling you there are guys. Back to Andy's point about mentors, I'm I can pick up the phone and ask a question. We had a great guy and we've had him on our podcast. To Dan Weidman, where I went to his office, I said, hey, dan, do you mind sitting down with me? And my remodeling manager went there, spent two hours with us, opened up his book, showed us how he does everything in his business, which is completely different than mine but yet very similar, right, because it's still remodeling. So, andy, as you, as you worked your way into the Neri chapter and did things, did you find that the Neri people became some of your mentors that you said weren't really mentors at the time?

Andy Apter: 23:51

Yeah, I don't know if you know, but I myself and Joe Bowen founded the, our chapter, where the inaugural members and we put this chapter together.

Andy Apter: 24:05

It's called the just speak a chapter and we it was necessary because the only place in the DC metro area to go was to join the Washington chapter and you'd have to go into Virginia and traffic is crazy and it was just very difficult and to attend meetings and the only other chapter in Maryland is mid Maryland, which is about 40 minutes north, and so we founded this chapter and and I would say that Joe is a mentor of mine he's also on the board right now on the national board, and a great leader, a smart guy, and it always amazes me how I continue to learn things and Joe has taught me some things indirectly, just with conversations and just with his experience level and his dedication and all the organizations he's been members of, a member of, and he's just a great business person and a great leader and I'm grateful to be working with him, I'm grateful to be with him on the board and I'm grateful that he's, you know, a national board member.

Chris Lalomia: 25:14

All right, we'll come back to Mary a little bit, but I got to get back into Andy. Yeah, andy, obviously, outside looking in, you're successful. You have 42 years ran the business. You got to house in Annapolis, you got to house in Sarasota. We haven't gotten to some of the other things that he's very successful outside looking in. We'll get to that in a minute Tease after we do a little advertising. Okay, and we'll punch that one, all right. Okay, you got a secret. I do. I will come back with a secret right after this, but now we're back. So, as we're back, andy, did you ever have a time where you said that's it, I'm out of here, I'm not doing this, I'm giving up. Just, this isn't working.

Andy Apter: 25:53

My wife is looking forward to that day because she is semi retired, she's a dentist and she works about six, seven days a month and I've cut back quite a bit. But no, you know what, every morning I get up and I look forward to the new challenges that lay ahead. I really like my customers, I like working with them, I like providing the service that we provide for them, and I must be doing it right, like you said, because I have a lot of repeat customers. I've worked for a lot of customers' kids. I've worked for their parents, and there's not a day that I go by. I have frustrations like anyone else. Sometimes I've tugged on my hair, but no, I really don't have those kind of days and I think when that day comes up, I think it's going to be time for me to retire, to hang it up.

Chris Lalomia: 26:50

Yeah, I think that's obviously you're in the minority on this one. Well, number one, you've got hair. He doesn't tug on it nearly as hard as we do. Clearly I've tugged on my hair way too much. But because I've gone through the ups and downs and it's been tough and I'm very proud that after 15 and a half years now, I've never missed payroll, made it again this week and.

Chris Lalomia: 27:10

But there are days there's times at 3.30 in the morning I'm like what have I done? And I love corporate America, I had that job and here I am running my business. But you said something that that's what keeps me going and kept me going in the darker times is that when I woke up I was like all right, there are problems to solve and nobody better out there to solve them than me. So I'd rather take my own problems and solve my own. And then so that's a testament. Again back to your business, one of the things that we want to talk about in your business you mentioned to me when we met in Atlanta. You grew to a pretty good size and you're talking about scaling down a little bit. How big did you get? And then, when did you decide to start narrowing down your focus to just and I forget the name of the city you're working in primarily now, but if you could share that.

Andy Apter: 27:52

Annapolis.

Chris Lalomia: 27:53

You're all right. You're so. You're right in Annapolis. I got you. So how big did you get? And then, as you're scaling it back, how did you start to narrow down your focus?

Andy Apter: 28:02

Oh, at one point I thought it was really cool when I had 35 or 38 employees. Looking back on it now I would never want that again, ever it. You know that was probably the. When you say the big, that was probably employee wise the biggest I'd gotten. But probably the past five years is the biggest I've gotten, being small and lean and mean and having a small staff and I'm a subcontractor based company, I would say, and we call our subcontractors trade partners, because I've got subcontractors that worked with me for 20 years. As soon as they hit someone's house and open the door, the drop costs go down, the dust partitions go up. I mean they protect and and to provide the service that I would provide and know what I would expect. So but they're subcontractors. So from that standpoint, probably the greatest success has been probably the past five, six years.

Chris Lalomia: 29:04

That's a great testament is that we talk about bigger is better than currently. I'm at 35 employees and it's it's 35 employees. I got believe it or not, and here we are talking about stuff in 2023,. One of my employees came down with COVID and strep throat and so she's my scheduler and she is, yeah, I got the hardest job in our company and she actually texted me with I'm sorry that this has happened. I mean, deborah, you just better, we'll be all right, we'll figure this out, but you do.

Chris Lalomia: 29:32

You when you're, when you're big and outside looking in looks really successful, but there's a lot of plates that you're trying to spin, a lot of mouths you're trying to feed, a lot of families you're trying to provide for and that I actually thrive under that stress and pressure. I enjoy it, but I can wear you down after a while. So now you, you mentioned to me one thing how, geographically, you started to disperse a little bit. When you're that big, you're in again. I don't know Annapolis very well and I said in the beginning of the DC area, because it just shows you how little I know about the area how, how, how spread out, where you're getting, and then you started to make a choice to bring it back. I want to hear about that one because I think a lot of people missed this one a lot.

Andy Apter: 30:12

Yeah, so what?

Andy Apter: 30:13

At one point several decades ago I was a beltway bandit.

Andy Apter: 30:18

There's a beltway that goes around the Washington area and I would hit all exits on that beltway and I would spend more time windshield time driving in a truck, going from sites, places we would have to go get material somewhere, and it would be an hour expedition or an hour and a half, and I just realized there was a lot of waste there was it being spread out over, and we were in Maryland and Virginia at the time.

Andy Apter: 30:43

We were kind of spread between two states, never mind the counties that we covered. And so I kind of got to a point, right before the 2000, that I reassessed my business and I took a look at it and I thought you know this driving around is crazy, you know it's just a lot of wasted time. And so then I concentrated on the interim of county, which is the county that Annapolis is in, and pretty well, cut said no to anybody that call outside of that area, which was scary because you're turning down work just because they're outside of your territory. And it paid off. I got a reputation locally and you know the phone is still ringing away on a local payout. That has worked out really well for us.

Chris Lalomia: 31:32

I think that's the point, that I think a gold nugget in there is. Bigger isn't always better, better is better, warm buffets at best. And, geographically, at one point there are times where you just got to sit back. Sometimes we're starting digging so hard as business owners that we just don't take a breath and go wait a minute. Do I really need to be a beltway band that I knew need to really be driving two hours to pick up lumber because I can't find anywhere else? Or maybe if I focus in one area, things will actually be better.

Chris Lalomia: 31:59

And he just said you know, last five years have probably been some of my most successful, and that's actually by lasering in, you know, moving in that focus, as opposed to casting that wide brush, putting it in, getting that focus. And it's hard to do sometimes because your ego says, yeah, I'm working in two states, I'm working in 25 counties, I got 35 employees, look at my big old revenue line. And you go wait a minute. Your sanity says what I mean I'm tired, so that's been excellent. All right, I tease this, but we've got to talk about this. We have a good friend who's who's a Viper enthusiast and one of the things that Andy shared outside of work that he likes to do is he runs, and he's in the Dodge Viper Club and has, I believe, more than one right. I have three.

Alan Wyatt: 32:50

There we go Different color for a different day, or what's the deal with three Vipers, andy?

Andy Apter: 32:55

Different generations. The first one I had the first generation. I actually have the first production year, which is 1992, they made 285 cars in 1992. I have car number 187 and it has about 7,000 miles on it. And then I have a Gen 3, which is at 2001, excuse me, 2004 convertible, and that car has 505 horsepower, about 500 pounds of torque. And then I have a Gen 5, which is the last edition that they built. It's a 2014 and it's gunmetal gray and it has 640 horsepower and 600 pounds of torque.

Andy Apter: 33:46

And when I bought it, I took delivery of it. I bought it from Woodhouse Dodge, which at the time was the largest Viper dealer in Nebraska of all places, and when I bought it, I bought it online. They shipped it to my house, took it out of the trailer, I took it for a ride and I was doing about 90 miles an hour and I remember I was shifting, I think, from second to third or third to fourth I forgot which one, but I didn't realize I didn't have the traction control and when I shifted into the next gear I let out the clutch and the rear end broke on me and it was a mind boggling experience at 90 miles an hour, almost losing control of the car. So now when I take the car out I make sure the traction control is on.

Alan Wyatt: 34:32

Have you taken it on a track before?

Andy Apter: 34:35

I have being a member of the Viper Club. Actually, in first week of September I'm going to Colorado Springs to an event, I'm having the car shipped out there and we go to different tracks. But I've driven on Charlotte International Speedway, Texas International Speedway. I've driven on Cody, which is Circuit of the Americas, which is an amazing track. It's a Formula One track. I've driven on Miller Motorsport Speedway. I've been to Detroit, been to Chrysler Proving Grounds. I mean, being a member of the club is almost as much fun as owning the car, because when I go next month to Colorado Springs there's going to be between two and 300 cars there. And, oh, Vegas International Speedway, I went to Vegas as well.

Alan Wyatt: 35:25

What's your top?

Andy Apter: 35:26

speed 185 miles an hour. Oh boy, hello, a Gen 2 Sapphire Blue 2001 ACR Viper that was modified. It did 185 miles an hour in that car.

Chris Lalomia: 35:43

Yeah, I think. What does this have to do with business? Well, listen, the business doesn't have to be defining you. This is you got to have some fun with what you do, right, alan? I mean, I get to like I'd like to take a few vacations.

Alan Wyatt: 35:55

Yeah, you're taking it to the extreme, but that's okay. I get where you're going with this.

Chris Lalomia: 35:59

Right. So but that's why I mean, just for a minute I had no idea there was this Dodge Viper Club. So after Andy had mentioned this, I knew some guys who've had it and we have the Atlanta Motor Speedway here. So I looked this thing up and I was like man, what a pretty cool group to be part of, right. So I just I thought that was really interesting, super cool. Any other interests outside of that hobby?

Andy Apter: 36:21

I've been to Snow Skier my whole life. Slowed down on that a little bit, but I guess if you fall coming down to Sarasota to my house down here, that's my hobby, relaxed time. I got a nice pool here. We're a bike ride 15, 10 minute bike ride to the beach and it's a great spot here. So just enjoyed being here with my wife and having chill time.

Chris Lalomia: 36:46

Oh, that's awesome, yeah, so I guess we'll go back to business if we need to. Do you have an exit strategy in mind for what you're gonna do? Not, I mean not given away for people. Is it employee buy? Is it somebody strategically buy? Do you just hand the keys to somebody? Are you just gonna just walk away? What were you thinking?

Andy Apter: 37:07

Yeah. So I've already talked with a broker about selling the business. It won't be an employee, and I talked with my accountant. When I get serious about it, which I suspect will be in the next few years, I'll get a lawyer involved and then I'm gonna sell the business outright.

Chris Lalomia: 37:25

Nice and I think that's a testament to building a business with processes. You know we've talked about that in our business, as you, in any business you start. It's okay to talk about the exit strategy in the beginning in the business plan. It's okay to figure out what you're gonna do because what you're gonna figure out, what you can buy or if you need to start your own, and then eventually what it's gonna be worth, because as a business owner, we all think it's worth usually two or three times more than it really is. And we also know the data says 82% of the businesses on business by sell do not sell.

Andy Apter: 37:58

Sorry I don't remember the author, but there's a book written by a small business construction small business construction owner and it was called sell out or walk out and it was just like basic explanation of selling a business and it was a really good read. It was a thin book, it's not that thick but it was a. I'm sorry I don't remember the author, but it was a really good read on what it takes to sell a remodeling business and one of the things that he said would be the ideal thing to sell it to an employee. I'm just not in that position. My employees are older, like I am, and I think when I retire they're not gonna want a construction business.

Chris Lalomia: 38:42

Yeah, that's what I actually have just been approached by a local company asking me if I would buy out him as a handyman. He says, hey, I'm thinking about getting out and I'm like, really, can you take me with you? He said no, no, no, that's not what I was thinking. I was thinking maybe you'd be interested in it. So we'll see what happens with that and I really enjoyed.

Chris Lalomia: 38:59

Thank you so much for coming on, but we can't let you go without number one. Let's go ahead and pitch your business after remodeling in Annapolis. You know anybody in Annapolis, that's where they gotta go to get their remodeling done. I wanna thank you again for your service with Neri and what you're doing as a president. We're gonna push this out not only locally, but try to get this out to the Neri group as well, because I think this is a great testament to what this association could do, and thank you for that. But we've gotta ask you a couple of questions, please. So you mentioned one book, but could you give us another book that you think our audience would really enjoy reading?

Andy Apter: 39:36

This is a fantastic book. I personally bought it for a lot of friends. I just send it to them. I don't even tell them that's coming. I go on Amazon, I put their address in and send it to them. It's called Can't Hurt Me and it's by David Goggins and he's the first Navy SEAL who also was on Delta Force and first off. It is a badass story about a badass man who grew up in the worst of circumstances and rose to the top. And what I like about the book is at the end of every chapter he does a recap of what you can learn and what you can take away and use for business, use for your personal life, whatever you want. It's almost a dot-to-dots way of motivation and how to succeed. It's a fantastic book. I've read it several times. I've given it to my son, I've given it to my friends. Highly recommend that book.

Chris Lalomia: 40:35

Well, David appreciates that one. Wow, what a great testimony that you just send this book to people. So again, maybe we can get him on. Yeah, I think I need to read it.

Alan Wyatt: 40:45

Yeah, he's definitely gonna read it.

Andy Apter: 40:46

He's an amazing human being. When you read what this guy went through, it'll blow your mind.

Chris Lalomia: 40:52

I've read some of it. Well, I follow him on social media, so you're right, he's a motivating dude. I'm gonna read that book too.

Andy Apter: 40:58

I'm on, thank you. He also holds the world record for the most chin-ups.

Chris Lalomia: 41:04

Oh, I didn't know that.

Alan Wyatt: 41:05

What's the number?

Andy Apter: 41:07

I don't remember. I mean it was I don't wanna say it was a day's worth of chin-ups, but it was something ridiculous. I mean, I saw the video of him doing it, but he I don't know if he still holds the record, but at the time that I looked into it he had the world's record for chin-ups.

Chris Lalomia: 41:22

Yeah, oh boy, won't be going for that record.

Alan Wyatt: 41:26

No, there's a lot of other records we can shoot for Chris.

Chris Lalomia: 41:28

All right, let's keep going, then. Hindi, as a remodeler, obviously you probably have some amazing spaces in your house, but what is the favorite feature of your home?

Andy Apter: 41:38

So the favorite feature in my home is at the house in Annapolis. It's a walkout basement with a swimming pool there, an outdoor fireplace, an outdoor kitchen that overlooks the Severn River and then when you go into the house in the basement there's a huge commercial-sized bar in the basement. Then there's a set of steps that go down to a pool room with a pool table and then there's another. There's TV screens on the wall and then there's a couple of fireplaces down there and then there's another huge screen on the wall and viewing area for football games and sporting events and movies.

Alan Wyatt: 42:16

So when you're in Florida can we stay in your Annapolis home?

Andy Apter: 42:20

We could probably work something out of you.

Chris Lalomia: 42:23

I was gonna say, yeah, can we go stay at that resort? I mean, that sounds like a rich Carleton resort, not a house. Beautiful, actually, thank you. Well done on the description too, because I visualized it very well. So that's gorgeous. Wow, that's great. All right, we may be taking this question out, but I'm gonna try anyway. What is a customer service pet peeve of yours when you're out there being the customer?

Andy Apter: 42:46

So when you say pet peeve, it's something that I don't like hearing or something that someone points out.

Chris Lalomia: 42:53

So you can tell if you can't tell in the podcast. And he's got to be like the coolest, smoothest, even keeled dude I've ever talked to. So I don't think anything really gets him upset and because I'm the exact 180 opposite of that. So what I'm talking about is when I walk into a store, give somebody the eye like hey, I need some help, and they run away, I actually literally start running after them. You actually see me at a dead sprint in the Home Depot if somebody doesn't help me. So that's a pet peeve of mine Something.

Alan Wyatt: 43:20

It's something in the customer service process that maybe you think should be happening, that just never does, or when it doesn't happen, it drives you crazy. I.

Andy Apter: 43:31

Don't really think I have one.

Chris Lalomia: 43:33

All right, there you go, I, this guy. I tell you what I love his demeanor I'm already learned that you know never get too high, never get too low. He's the ideal customer and he is the ideal customer. I can, I can, can, we can. We could work for you as handyman. All right, last question Give us a DIY or a nightmare, a contractor. Nightmare story death, dismemberment, fire, flood.

Andy Apter: 44:00

Unfortunately, this is the greatest and saddest story all wrapped up together. About four years ago I did probably one of the largest remodeling projects of my career. It was just under a four million dollar remodeling project and it was a couple. She had sold a large law firm and they had Money was not an issue or an object and they just wanted to do an amazing remodeling job and he was driven on design. He was driven in the process and he loved the process and he loved when we used to have meetings. He would have a refrigerator on site that he would stock with beers with the guys and the designer and we would walk around and talk and he just loved the process and she loved watching him do it. She didn't love the process and While we were working on the project he was. He was Determined. He found out he had brain cancer and it was.

Andy Apter: 44:55

No, and I talked to a doctor that I had as a customer and he said 95% of the people with brain cancer died within the first year. And he did pass away, and while he was sick, his wife had to be involved in the construction project. We he did not like making decisions, she did not like getting involved, so it was. It was very difficult. We worked with them to complete it and she pushed us in the end so that he could get in the home. So that was. That was just heartbreaking.

Andy Apter: 45:30

It was one of the greatest projects in my career, but unfortunately it was the saddest project all the same time. Wow, did he get to see it though? He did, but unfortunately was in a hospital bed in the media room. He couldn't walk the steps to get up on the floor. The last time I saw him in the hospital bed and I literally had to pick him up so we could talk because he was laying down. Of course, I went to his funeral and since then his wife's been a widow living on the property and it seems to be pretty happy and working work through it. But it was one of those stories that you just you know, you can't believe happened.

Chris Lalomia: 46:08

You can't. I'm telling you, man Whoo, I tell you I was. I was tearing up listening to that one. That's got to be a hard environment. But well done, well, you know. Good on you for doing that job and getting it done. But yeah, well, it's a bittersweet moment, I'm sure. Andy, thank you again for coming on. This is gonna be great. If you didn't learn something about how to be cool when you're working, you did not pay attention to this podcast, and if you made it all the way to the end and you're listening to me now, you are one of the 10%ers, because most of the people are usually bailing out. And Minute 40, and now we're a minute 48. So if you're here at 48, thank you for making it. Go out there making a great day. Get up that mountaintop. Let's go see what success looks like for you. We're out of here. Cheers, thanks, andy.