The Small Business Safari
Have you ever sat there and wondered "What am I doing here stuck in the concrete zoo of the corporate world?" Are you itching to get out? Chris Lalomia and his co-host Alan Wyatt traverse the jungle of entrepreneurship. Together they share their stories and help you explore the wild world of SCALING your business. With many years of owning their own small businesses, they love to give insight to the aspiring entrepreneur. So, are you ready to make the jump?
The Small Business Safari
Selling Beyond the Ick Factor | Dr. Cindy McGovern
Every job is a sales job, and every interaction is a sales interaction. Learning to understand needs, help people, find solutions collaboratively, and remove the "ick factor" from the sales process transforms how we approach all our business relationships.
• Sales begins with selling yourself authentically and consistently
• Your body language constitutes 80% of communication, even in virtual settings
• The true bottlenecks often occur after the sale—in service, follow-up, and billing
• Many companies create "transactionships" instead of relationships with customers
• Customers need to feel seen, felt, and heard throughout their experience
• Getting employees involved in sales requires showing how it benefits them personally
• Effective retention begins at the first interaction, not after the transaction
• Ask for referrals, reviews, and repeat business instead of hoping they'll happen
Check out Dr. Cindy McGovern's books "Every Job is a Sales Job" and "Sell Yourself" at drcindy@drcindy.com or follow her at 1ST Lady of Sales on all platforms.
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https://drcindy.com/orange-leaf-academy/
From the Zoo to Wild is a book for entrepreneurs passionate about home services, looking to move away from corporate jobs. Chris Lalomia, a former executive, shares his path, discoveries, and tools to succeed as a small business owner in home improvement retail. The book provides the mindset, habits, leadership style, and customer-oriented processes necessary to succeed as a small business owner in home services.
And when I realized what it really is it's about understanding needs, helping people, figuring out solutions together, collaboration I was like, oh dang, I've been doing this my whole life. I just didn't call it sales, but we do have that ick factor about it. We all think of sort of the pushy, manipulative, cheesy sales guy that's such a small minute portion of salespeople, and even those guys don't want to be that.
Speaker 3:So let's change the script on sale. Yeah, yeah, but polyester's going out. Polyester sands of bells are going out. Brother, I'm telling you that the tie that's a little too short. The sands of bells coming over.
Speaker 2:The big belly gonna sell me a car gone yeah what can I do to put you in this car today, today, today.
Speaker 3:Tommy.
Speaker 1:Two Thumbs, that's what I call him.
Speaker 3:All right, what is Tommy? Two Thumbs.
Speaker 1:He's literally the avatar that I think people have of a cheesy sales guy or gal. Right, it's like, hey, what's it going to take, like you said and I even teach this when I'm doing seminars and workshops with clients and I have it on the board and it's a guy sunglasses inside lots of gold chains, pinky rings, shirt on button to the belly button. You know the whole thing lots of cologne slacks, absolutely, absolutely canoe.
Speaker 1:Oh, there's gotta be something from a drugstore, for sure right top shelf drugstore top shelf drugstore, right Top shelf drugstore, all right so.
Speaker 3:Tommy, two thumbs. Welcome to the Small Business Safari where I help guide you to avoid those traps, pitfalls and dangers that lurk when navigating the wild world of small business ownership. I'll share those gold nuggets of information and invite guests to help accelerate your ascent to that mountaintop of success. It's a jungle out there and I want to help you traverse through the levels of owning your own business that can get you bogged down and distract you from hitting your own personal and professional goals. So strap in adventure team and let's take a ride through the safari and get you to the mountaintop. Alan, you man, my God, you are a chit chat. You just can't shut me up today. Oh, my god, we're gonna have. You know what? I got the mute button ready to go right now and I got the dump button for sure, because I'm not sure what's going to come out of this episode. But you and your, your saucy mouth, I don't know I just sorry, sorry, I apologize in advance.
Speaker 2:They call it working blue. That's what they call it. Is that why we're explicit? All me, all these years it's been you all these fucking years.
Speaker 3:I can't believe this is going on. This is crazy. Well, guys, great episode on tap. Today we are going to talk about what is the linchpin, what is the secret, what is the thing that actually makes your business roll? Is it being good at your books? Absolutely. Is it being good at being a process documenter, of course. Is it good at making sure that people pay you? Well, let me tell you about that, ladies and gentlemen. Yes, but what makes it work? Alan go, you got to drive sales, you got to have sales, and you know what. We're not just going to go grade school sales shit here today, boys.
Speaker 2:No girls. How about grade school?
Speaker 3:sales shit here today. Boys, no girls. How about high school sales? No, I can, I say no, we have a junior. Junior college sales nope, not even there. We're going higher. Keep going, alan, keep going. Undergrad sales oh my god, no, we have graduated from there, we're off the bachelor's masters, masters of sales, no no, no, my god. We're going to the pop, we're going to the pinnacle. Where are we going, alan? The doctor, we have the doctor, dr cindy begovern in the house. First lady of sales doc, thanks for coming in and let's go.
Speaker 1:Thanks, for having me guys. It's a pleasure to be here, and I just already know this is going to be a hoot, so let's do this let's do this, oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:So all right, doc, we need a lot of help in sales. We all do. We all wish we were better at it. We all think sometimes we think we're really good at it until you get hit in the nose and, as they say, that's mike tyson. Everybody has a plan to get in the nose. So you have made your life's mission of getting into sales and helping people with it. So what's the secret? Give us just I'm sure it's just one line, and we're going to close up this episode. Call it good, doc is five minutes.
Speaker 3:We're done right now all it is. Is that all it takes, doc? What do?
Speaker 1:we do. I mean, if you want a one-liner, it's really the fact that every job is a sales job and every interaction is a sales interaction and you have to treat every single one as such gold nugget right off the rip.
Speaker 2:I you know, and I've said something similar and I'm not nearly as educated as our guests, but, like I always, even my reverend father was a salesman. Your dentist is a salesperson, always be selling Always.
Speaker 3:You know what I told young people the same thing when we did the summer internship program is that when you're in college you're still selling yourself. You better be thinking about yourself a hundred percent right.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And that mindset is so important because and I think you use the word ick and taking the ick- out of sales because there's so many people that just think it's this vile practice that only snakes use, and it's not true.
Speaker 1:That's so true and I used to think that, truth be told, I never wanted to be in sales. And I got put into a sales role and when I realized what it really is it's about understanding needs, helping people, figuring out solutions together, collaboration I was like, oh dang, I've been doing this my whole life. I just didn't call it sales. But we do have that ick factor about it. We all think of sort of the pushy, manipulative, cheesy sales guy. That's such a small, small minute portion of sales people, and even those guys don't want to be that.
Speaker 3:So let's change the script on sales. Yeah, polyester sands bells are going out, brother, I'm telling you that the tie that's a little too short. The sands bells coming over. The big belly gonna sell me a car gone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what can I do to put you in this car today, today, today?
Speaker 1:tell me two thumbs, that's what I call him all right, what does tommy two thumbs?
Speaker 1:he's literally the avatar that I think people have of a cheesy sales guy or gal. Right, it's like, hey, what's it gonna take? Like you said, and you know I, I even teach this when I'm doing seminars and workshops with clients and I have it on the board and it's a guy sunglasses inside lots of gold chains, pinky rings, shirt on button to the belly button. You know the whole thing lots of cologne slacks, absolutely, absolutely canoe. Oh, there's gotta be something from the, from a drugstore, for sure right top shelf drugstore top top shelf drugstore, so all right so.
Speaker 3:Tommy, two thumbs and you're talking about breaking the mold, so let's, let's get into that a little bit. So how do we become better salespeople? What are? What are things we need to be doing?
Speaker 1:The first thing is it's just being conscientious about the fact that you're already selling, and I believe we sell ourselves before we sell anything. Right, but I don't trust you. I'm not trusting whatever you're selling me. So if we start every interaction recognizing this is a sales exchange, that already makes you better because you go in with that awareness. You go in with probably a better plan for the conversation and think about it. Anytime somebody goes in to pitch their services, they go in to have a conversation with their spouse about I want to go here to dinner instead of there. You think about it ahead of time. You have a little bit of a plan. You're like oh, I'm not, I'm not going to talk to my spouse now because they're ticked off because they just walked in the door. I'm going to give it 15 minutes, wait till they have their glass of wine. Then I'm gonna I'm gonna approach it at sales so all right.
Speaker 2:What she's saying is is get people to drink wine and then you can sell.
Speaker 3:That's what I heard so it reminds me of uh, last night we had our nary event and uh, we have drinks at these events. I said I know everybody comes here for the great education because, but let's face it, we do have alcohol here and the executive director of our non is over there going. No, no, it's not a drinking event. I said, I'm sorry, everybody, it's not a drinking event. 150 people. I said, and speaking of not drinking events, next month event we call it a brew bash because we're having it at a brewery, right, I said, but it's really a trade appreciation event, everybody. So it's not about drinking. So you're back to selling.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, Dr Cindy, I got a question for you. If you're trying to get people to realize that they're always selling, how much? How much do you talk about body language and that?
Speaker 1:nonverbal communication. So in the U S in particular, body language is about 80% of the message. Of course, so 80, about 80% of the of the message and we forget about that. It's not just your actual body, it's your tone, it's the inflection in your voice, the rate of your speech. So even if you're on the phone or over 2D video message or something like that, you're still selling that body language. So I think that's a big part of it is that nonverbal aspect of the communication is a huge part.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you hit on one. I've actually used it in our biz. I picked up from somebody. It's a well-known. I don't know where it came from, but it's a 738 55 rule. People remember seven percent of what you say, 38 of how you say it, 55 of how you're acting while you say it and uh, alan's looking at me going 7 30.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm just thinking about how fast you talk and the fact that you're italian and you use your hands a lot. Does that make you better?
Speaker 3:I don't know if that no definitely doesn't make me better, because only people are picking about three and a half percent of what I'm saying. So, uh, so I think the body language you talked about that, but you actually talked about one thing. Let's talk about this for a minute. A lot of us, we're all getting back to in-person sales, but this zoom sales, the video sales how do you do body language over that?
Speaker 1:so funny. People kind of get freaked out by the 2D aspect of it, but the truth of the matter is you're still talking to another human. There's still a 3D on the other side, so you need to behave as if they're sitting across the table from you. And that's literally how I teach it when I'm coaching people on this. We're sitting across the table from one another. I'm in California, you guys are in Georgia today, but it's literally like we're sitting at somebody's table, and if you approach it that way, then you're actually going to have more natural body language. When you forget you're literally sitting with someone, that's when your body language becomes very tilted and kind of fake. And the other part of it too is and y'all will appreciate this, I also firmly believe you dress the part. So a lot of people kind of do what I call the mullet of clothing. They'll do business on the top and you know, sweatpants on the bottom business in the front, party in the back.
Speaker 1:But she is not from the panhandle of florida at all is she no, not at all.
Speaker 2:Hey, you need to ask her that how much her truck was lifted.
Speaker 3:Well, we're going to get there in a minute. I want to hear it. I want to business the front part. But you're right, if you're not present with what's going on, you can really get stilted. Is that what you said?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, but. I want her to finish that thought everybody Hang on.
Speaker 1:Go put your pants on, okay, but I believe it's sort of you dress while you play, well, right. But I also think that it's recognizing that this is really still a meeting and even if you're in sweatpants, you're going to behave differently. We know this. This is why we make children dress up right. They're going to be on their best behavior and their Sunday best sort of a thing. So I do think that there's something to be said about. I also think it's the way you're projecting. You know, the day that you're going to wear your hot pink sweatpants is the day your tech is going to bust and you're going to have to stand up and everybody's going to see your hot pink sweatpants.
Speaker 3:So you know not saying oh hello, Not saying you have any. Thank God, I took those to Goodwill. Man, oh boy, man, I'm oh boy, Zoom, it's over, Uh-oh, I'm coming back. So are we not there? No, we're there. I just killed the video by mistake.
Speaker 2:Follow up on that. We have a much more casual society today, so is dressing the part meaning just being a little bit better than sloppy or a little bit better than the environment would call for? How do you define that today?
Speaker 1:Well, I think it goes directly to your personal brand and kind of who you are. So I'm. I'm usually a little bit more professional, just. But that's my brand, that's who I am, that's what I like she does.
Speaker 1:But I also thank you but I but I live in san francisco, so like here it's, you know, the nice hoodie is your business room attire and that's okay, it's accepted here. So if I go back to, you know, the South, and in Atlanta it's going to be a little bit more formal and New York city it's going to be much more formal. So it just kind of depends on where you're at. But I think it really is about the reflection of you and what you want to put out there into the world, and so I will always want to put out sort of that positive professional image.
Speaker 3:She had, she had, I want to. I think we snuck it in there. I just love that phrase though. Dress well, play well. That is so key. You know, you know my mother. I remember when I went for my first interview. It was going to be for a machine shop. Right, I was just. Actually, I was going to work. I'm going to interview for a doc job. She goes you're interviewing for the job you want to be, not the job you have. You're the job you're asking for well, it's funny.
Speaker 2:So I'm in dr cindy, I'm in commercial real estate and I think about this a lot. So if you think about a residential real estate agent, it's white Lexus bottle, blonde, lots of cologne and some sort of a suit. In commercial it's different. I might be tromping through some woods, I might be going through a dirty warehouse and there still are some people in my side of real estate who will put on a suit, but it almost seems cheesy. It goes back to that Tommy Two Thumbs. And so it's like where is that happy medium, to where I wanna address competently, I wanna let them feel like, okay, I'm dealing with somebody who knows what they're doing, but at the same time it's just, it's a really tough balance.
Speaker 1:It is a tough balance, but I think it goes back to sort of again what you want to project. So, for instance, my guess is, if you were meeting with me and I was an investor and you had been traipsing through a warehouse and you were covered in dust and you had work boots on and it had a hard hat at some point when you showed up to that meeting to try to win my money, you're going to tell me what you did earlier.
Speaker 2:You're going to actually explain it.
Speaker 1:You're not going to be like, hey, here I am, I'm showing up. You're going to say, oh gosh, you know, I forgive the dust, here's what's been happening. Then I know sort of the context of it. I know you were checking out the warehouse. You want me to buy or you want me to invest in. So I think it's the way we sell it.
Speaker 3:Perfect.
Speaker 2:Ieling services I tell all my sales guys.
Speaker 3:Uh, over the years, I'm like you're gonna wear a red polo because red is the call to action. I said, but you're always going to have khaki work pants on and you're always going to have the tape measure on the side of your belt and you're going to have a portfolio that you can write it, even with electronics. I said, because you need to look the part. You look the part of. Yeah, I can't see your hands. They better be callous, because I'm expecting you know how to do this. I said, but on the flip side, I don't expect you to be wearing a polo shirt or a button-down shirt with long sleeves and wearing your loafers and pulling up in a mercedes because they go, wait a minute. You're supposed to be a construction guy, but we looked more professional than most construction guys in their mind. And then I make all my technicians. Those guys all wear uh t-shirts, uh, while they're working around, but everybody wears khaki pants as well. Same thing. It's that image play well, dress well. I mean dress well, play well.
Speaker 2:You said something I want to ask the doctor about. What do you think about? Red is a call to action as opposed to.
Speaker 3:You know, maybe stop or blood but it does cover up blood really well. I'm not going to lie, I've proven that. That's what helped one of the guys squirt away.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's a hazard of the job. No, there's a lot of psychology around colors and things like that, and yellows and reds are things that are used to sort of gain attention. Orange is another one. So I think it's really about again the brand that you want to portray. But I think it's really about again the brand that you want to portray, but I think for you it is a eye-catching, like hey, we're here to help and so I love it.
Speaker 2:That's great. All right, let's talk a little bit more about that. Dr Cindy, I thought we were a team.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry, we'll come back later Everest, we'll get through the gab on, All right. So you've obviously talked a lot about sales. In fact, we didn't really credential her. I mean, she actually goes all the way around the world teaching people how to sell. So what are the things you find that people need the most help with in selling themselves and selling?
Speaker 1:what they're doing? Oh, great question. The first thing is, when you're selling yourself, you've got to be super intentional around what you're putting out into the world and it's got to be consistent. And I find a lot of people have sort of brands in conflict with one another, where you know there's somebody from nine to five and then there's somebody else from five to nine Gives people a difficult way of having to file you in their brain. We need to know who you are. We want to be consistent. We see this with celebrities all the time, right when they kind of go off brand and we're like, oh, didn't think that person was going to do that and they're human, okay, so maybe that was, you know, a mistake, maybe it was a branding blunder. But I think a lot of people don't realize that the world is watching 24 seven. Nowadays it is social media. You never know when somebody is going to be snapping a picture. We have cameras in our pockets and you've got to live that brand everywhere you go.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's, that's right. 24, seven on the brand you know I found too is that we've been out and, uh, ellen, I love networking. That's how we met originally. We always push that to everybody. That's a great way to get into sales is to go out and network and talk with people. But when you've ever found somebody who has like three businesses and they come up to you and they're giving you like three different cards and you're trying to figure out what the hell they're doing, you're like I don't even know what you do, right, yeah, yeah which card are you giving me?
Speaker 3:are you a carpet cleaner? Are you a publisher? Are you a marketing specialist? I don't know, and this is the guy I don't know. You probably know the guy I'm thinking of so, dr cindy, just a hypothetical situation.
Speaker 2:if asking for a friend, if, uh, this friend goes to vegas and wants to have a great time in the sports book, does he have to stand brand there or can he? Can he cut loose a little bit and not care what other people see?
Speaker 1:It depends on what they're trying to put into the universe, you know, and recognizing that we may or may not be talking about somebody I don't know I don't either.
Speaker 3:Hey, big daddy's in the house. Man, when I get to vegas, baby, it's big time and I'm letting everybody know how big it is, that's right. Hey, you want to work with me? We're big time baby, all right, all right, so that's staying on. Brand, please, she's. She's way too professional. Obviously, consistency. Wow, doesn't that suck, that she's so professional I hate. I hate how consistent she is staying. It's staying on brand, I know.
Speaker 2:I keep trying to wield her brain to destroy you and I can't. I know it, just it won't work. She's too consistent. No, she is.
Speaker 3:Right. So you go around, you talk with companies. What do people mostly ask you to come and talk to them about? To help empower their Salesforce?
Speaker 1:Yeah, great question. If they have a sales team, it's really working with the sales team to help them shorten their sales cycle, gain stickier clients, better referrals, bigger network. If they don't have a sales team, or if they have a sales team but they're realizing, the other half of the house, service side, needs a little assistance too. It's working with the non-salespeople and that's a lot of the work that we end up doing too is, you know, sales can bring it in. Somebody else is likely the one keeping it, and I truly believe every job is a sales job. So we go in and we're helping everybody to recognize everything you do is in sales. We sort of define it as if you can tick somebody off, if you can make their day or if you can influence their opinion of your organization, you're in sales. So by definition, that's literally everybody that works for you boy.
Speaker 2:She brought up something that really resonates with me. Everybody in your organization is part of the sales process, and I've got a friend of mine who's new in an industry and they were just bought out by private equity and everything is great, until it comes to the billing department, and the billing department is a nightmare. And so the product's great, the service is, and the billing department is a nightmare, and so the product's great, the service is great, the installation's great, all of that's great. And then until it comes to the money piece, and they're killing repeat business.
Speaker 1:And that's a huge bottleneck. And funny enough that you mentioned finance and sort of bookkeeping area. That's a big bottleneck that we find in a lot of our organizations. We do an assessment first and we learn kind of what's working, what's not working, and that is one of the bottleneck areas. Service is a bottleneck and timely communication and then when it gets up that food chain and billing and then sort of the recap are where the sticky points are.
Speaker 3:All right, this is a big one, because again, left brain, right brain, all right. Doc, you were in school. How many accountants did you work with that were good at sales? I mean that's, you're basically telling these accountants hey, they're like hey, what do you think your job is? Oh, my job is to get the money in for the company, cause if I don't get the money in, you guys can't go sell more. But you're saying, hey, do you get that brain to go? Okay, by the way, you're right, I'm in sales.
Speaker 2:I'm going to give you a good question on that, and it's three to one, by the way. Doc, I'm way upside down, all right, thank you All right Answer.
Speaker 3:I can't wait.
Speaker 1:I'm going to pull over everybody put the windows up, listen turn the volume up, here we go.
Speaker 1:So when you're talking to somebody who's really going to vehemently oppose the fact that they're in sales, you start with the fact that reminding them they're selling themselves already and it's not what they're wanting, because that's what's happening is, they're already selling, but they're selling this. We're not going to help you, we're the ones that control all the beans. You can't do this. It's like, hey, you want the sales team to turn in their expense reports faster? Maybe don't be a jerk. Maybe you know you want the clients to actually be able to get you the information that you need so that you can turn the billing around. How are you asking? How are you requesting their partnership? How are you asking for the information? How are you communicating?
Speaker 1:It's like IT. It is one of my favorites, because I always say, well, we're not in sales and I go oh, you are the most critical point of sales because you're. When everything broke down, so you got to sell these people on the fact that they're not idiots because, yes, I already restarted my computer, you got to sell them on the fact that you're here to help and you literally deal with crises every day.
Speaker 1:So what are you putting out there? Are you truly selling what you mean to be selling? And that's where you start to shift their mindset and get their buy-in so that they can recognize it makes their life easier if they approach it from a sales lens.
Speaker 3:What a great perspective. Turn that lens around, is you're already selling? No, I'm not, exactly You're anti-selling bro.
Speaker 2:Whether you like it or not, you're selling.
Speaker 3:You want to sell to make your job easier? Yeah, I love that. You know, helping people just kind of put the lens back on themselves, that's. That's a great line that I think will help a lot of people with that. The IT people you're right, they should look at themselves as heroes, not the oh my God, I got another picnic. You've ever heard of that one? No, oh yeah, all right. I got another picnic. You've ever heard of that one? No, oh yeah, all right. I got to tell you my picnic story.
Speaker 3:So we were implementing a call center years ago when I was in consulting before I got into banking, and we implemented a very sophisticated call center in the late 90s that did a computer pop and integration, and so it was pretty complicated, right. But again, at the end of the day, it comes down to a CSR or somebody taking the phone call. And it comes down to a CSR or somebody taking the phone call and they, if we implemented the system, you'd have to run around this, the, the facility, you know a hundred people, I mean just think of see a cubes. And I'm running around with my team, I'm part of the team, and you come over and you find out what the problem is and you go yeah, I'm here, yep, we got it figured out, yeah, it's just a picnic, so we're just just gonna have a good old time with it and we'll get it all figured out.
Speaker 3:And because you can't piss off the csr and say the problem's in chair, not in computer, so that's a picnic. So there you go. We kept them happy because you had to keep these people really happy, because they were always they were. It was a call center for financial management, your money. So all right, all right, doc, so you're back, you're helping companies realign, get themselves into sales, and you are helping a lot of these people in the back office, not so much in the front sales line. Is that what I'm hearing?
Speaker 1:We do the front sales too. It just kind of depends. But a lot of the clients that come to us, their sales team is doing fine. They're losing the sale on the back end.
Speaker 2:So they come to us to help stop. That's got to be a big aha for a lot of companies, cause I would assume most people just assume, okay, I need to, you know, get a higher conversion rate or something like that. More leads, more prospects that part of the funnel. But you're talking a lot more about the rest of the sales process that they don't even realize is part of the sales process, and especially when it comes to repeat referral sales as well process, and especially when it comes to repeat referral sales as well.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, she talked, she talked. You know again how much does it cost to acquire a customer, how much does it cost to keep a customer, and in my business, 40 of my business is repeat customers there you go.
Speaker 3:So that's why I, you know, I I did the presentation for nary called customer services sales. I just didn't. I did it more like on a grade level uh, grade school level as opposed to doc here. But I love what you're saying about that. But how do you get, how do companies come to that realization? Aha, it's not my sales team, it's the other guys that need help with that. That's gotta be a hard sell on your part to get them to go. Yeah, we have the problem.
Speaker 1:It is to a degree, but we're we're a consulting company, so we go in and we assess the organization first, so we do confidential one-on-one interviews with depending on how big the company is. We just did one for a 3000 person company and we did about 200 interviews and in that we literally are finding out what's working, what's not working. And I'll give you a quick story. So there was a title insurance company you guys are in real estate, so you know that world and we found out that they had a really productive sales team. But what was ending up happening is they were sneaking out the back door, so they were bringing in something like 60 new customers a month. They were losing like 62. And so they couldn't figure out why they kept staying even. And I said, well, let's look at this, let's look at the math, let's figure this out.
Speaker 1:And what we were realizing is they were really just treading water at that point and we had to figure out why people were leaving. And so we started looking at it, we started looking at reviews, we really dug deep and it wasn't that sales wasn't doing a great job, they were, but they were selling what I would call a transaction ship. Just give me one. Just try us one time. Just give me a bone, just give us one, give me one. Just try us one time. Just give me a bone, just give us one. I gave you one. Okay, is that really what you want?
Speaker 1:So there was no alliance with a real estate agent sending the business. On the flip side of that, the escrow teams were looking at this going well, alan doesn't work with us, alan works with so-and-so down the street. He's not our client. Yeah, that's called a prospect, so let's maybe invite him to stay. And so it was sort of both sides of the house really needed to step up a little bit differently to be able to not only bring those clients and make them feel welcome, but keep them there and grow them.
Speaker 2:Yeah that, throw me a bone. It actually works. But then you better do a great job with that one bone.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love that line transactionship, not relationship. Yeah, so good.
Speaker 1:Well it is. It's like you're only as good as the last transaction. And it's funny, because when you ask them to throw you a bone, think about even what you're asking. Like seasoned sales professionals, mess this one up, in my opinion too, because they'll ask for an order, a try, versus a partnership. I don't want you to try us once. I want you to try us, I want you to love us and I want you to tell everybody else about us. So you're still looking for a relationship with that person. Ask for what you want, take what you can get.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an opportunity to prove yourself as a way. I always looked at that. You know, try me once so I can prove myself, because I understand that you're not going to sign up for a lifelong relationship. But once you see how we do it, then you're going to be much more inclined to do so.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but you, you're coming at it from the no like and trust and know you're going to deliver on it. I get, I get what's going on. If you're just out there just bringing them in, you're bringing them in the gate and you're taking their tiki and you're hitting the road and you're just the sales hawker at the circus tent, you don't know what's going on inside the circus tent. That's right. The monkeys are in there going crazy. Where's the bearded lady? Where's the bearded lady?
Speaker 2:I thought you said man, what a picture you're painting on this one. Well again, sales problems. You mentioned three bottlenecks. One we touched on was the accounting side of things.
Speaker 1:What were the other two again? So the service side and then sort of the follow-up after the whole transaction. If they are, you know how do you keep the customer engaged after they're finished with their whatever service or product that you bought?
Speaker 2:what are some best practices on that, on the retention and following up?
Speaker 1:great question so first of all, the.
Speaker 1:The challenge is you actually have to recognize that the retention begins at the very beginning of the partnership. And this is another piece where I find that a lot of even seasoned sales pros mess up is to look to get married. Here. We're going to wow you. This first date's going to be amazing, but I'm telling you this is going to be where you want to be. So it's setting that stage.
Speaker 1:The second part of it is through the whatever experiences for the customer making sure they're being seen, felt and heard. They need to be truly seen. What do they need? Are we understanding that they be truly seen? What do they need? Are we understanding that they need to feel like they belong there and they need to be heard with regard to what their needs are. They're being unmet, whatever that is.
Speaker 1:And then the last piece is once the transaction is over, what is your sort of touch points? To stay in front of them, and this is where a lot of companies end up not realizing they're creating transaction ships. They have no way to keep them coming back. They have no way to stay in touch with them. So that's why they get on mailing lists and things like that, but have you asked them to come back? Did you ask them to send you a referral If they had a great experience? Did you ask for that Google review so you can continue online? Did you ask them to follow you online? There's a lot of ways to stay in touch with customers where they're not really in your house, but they're at least in your ecosystem.
Speaker 3:So, wow, this is you got one. Yeah, oh boy, then I'm going to hold mine back.
Speaker 2:No, we've been doing this podcast. How long, chris? Three and a half years, yeah, and we love referrals and we can't figure out a way other than just natural and organic. And you know, just asking for them, is there such a thing as any kind of a referral system or program that actually works?
Speaker 1:I'd be curious to know how you're asking for referrals. So how do you do it now?
Speaker 3:Well me, I usually beg, I plead.
Speaker 1:Do you cry?
Speaker 3:I do, I can actually I'd have one drop that can come out of my eye.
Speaker 1:More tears? No, how do we do?
Speaker 3:it. You know what we? We don't ask. I don't actually go for the ask and the referrals. Now again with our, with our customer base, what we do. I've got 17,000 people in my email database, so we email out information every once a month and it's a starts with a video for me a little bit about the home, a little bit about the home, a little bit about this and not asking, but also explaining hey, we've got handyman for a day, but we never asked for that referral.
Speaker 3:And um, but back to back to your point. I would tell you we tried this. I said, hey, look, if you refer me to your friend, I'll take 25 off or I'll give you a 25 gift card. Backfired on me, they said, well, I don't want the money, just do my, do my friend right and give them the 25 bucks. That's where I found it kept blowing up on me. And then I've had other contractors who refer a lot of smaller jobs to us say, hey, we need to get a kickback. I'm like all right, you have a referral system. What do you want me to do? Yeah, I want to get seven percent of every job you do. I'm like what do you think I'm making, bro? I mean it's you want my whole net. I'm like that ain't happening. So yeah, I did. To Alan's point I have not found a good one yet that if implemented works other than being authentic, where people just go, man, I want my friend to work with this great company.
Speaker 1:And that's actually the best way to do it, but you do have to ask and you have to continue to ask, because the problem is, if you ask at the end of the job, they may not have anybody in mind that has a need. They may not have anyone that they can come up with like at this moment that needs the handyman. That's where your, your newsletter comes in, though. I think that's really powerful. You stay in front of them, but is there an ask in the newsletter? That's another place.
Speaker 3:How often do we keep in touch? I was going to be rude and start writing that down, but I'm like I can't do that. All right, that's I. Uh, I'm telling cindy right now, when you listen to this, remind me we need to do the ask in the next newsletter?
Speaker 2:yeah, I love that. So what would you ask people?
Speaker 3:want to help you people want to help you yeah like, like, listen to this podcast, man, if you like. If you like this thing. Now this is how it sounds. Uh, let me know if this sounds desperate. Man, can you just tell somebody else about us? We should be up as big as smartless. We should be as big as roger for the love of god but, can you help a brother? Oh man, come on please cry more was that a little? Was that a little too whiny?
Speaker 1:I, I, you know, I kind of like the tears. I think I mean they work.
Speaker 3:So you know, I say go for it but, but I think, put the food on my kid's table. I've done that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, there you go, that one too. You know my kids are gonna starve, but I think that it's really about being authentic about their experience and making sure that you're honoring whatever that was. Getting that honest feedback, hey, how was this? Like? Did we do everything you needed us to do? Yeah, we loved working with you too, cause you're not a psycho.
Speaker 3:Like do you?
Speaker 1:have any non-psycho neighbors that you can recommend?
Speaker 3:I like that line a lot. You know what actually. That's how I asked. You know, the problem is your next book. Is that you know now? Because when I first started my business, my big aha moment which is what I put in my book was that I was for the first time in my entire life I was in a retail business. I had been either in a machine shop, in engineering, in consulting or working in banking, but this is the first time I was working with the general public. And you think your neighbors are normal, man brother, I'm going to tell you, if you look around and you say all my neighbors are normal, I'm telling you one of the three, you isn't. And if you're looking and saying those two are normal, it's probably you. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, you're the crazy one, dude. You're the crazy uncle. You're the one I do not want to go into your house because you're nuts, psycho, always one. It took a negative.
Speaker 2:Let's go positive, all right you're running all the emotions today. Oh boy, I'm crying.
Speaker 3:I'm angry.
Speaker 2:I know it's what all your therapists you keep holding. I know we got to give him a belly laugh before the episode is over all of the emotions.
Speaker 3:That's a good one. Yeah right, thank you, doc. I'd see you're welcome. Oh, my god. Oh, where was I going? I? I had another big question. I was gonna ask you, um, and now I completely lost it. Hmm, go figure, hummingbird, all right, let's talk about your book, and then I'll remember. So you got a book, you got a couple books, you got books that are actually not even in english so new york times best-selling books, how about that?
Speaker 2:yeah, am I feeling a little less than yeah I do, because I do like the fact that you know he's always rubbing in that usually our guest has a book, chris has a book, alan doesn't have a book. But I'm like you know, if I'm not gonna have a book, that's okay, because she has a book. Alan doesn't have a book, but I'm like you know, if I'm not going to have a book, that's okay Because she has a New York times bestselling book.
Speaker 3:So we don't even bring up the fact that I wrote a book.
Speaker 2:All right doc.
Speaker 3:How can we find your book? What are they it does talk about?
Speaker 1:it. Uh, the first book was called every job is a sales job, but it's literally the book I wish somebody had given me when I was probably 18.
Speaker 3:It's the book, I didn't learn.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and and you know it's funny I have three degrees in communication from amazing school and I didn't get taught what was in that book.
Speaker 1:So I think we really need to to help people to learn that sales is not just a business skill, it's a life skill. So that was the first book, and then the second book is sell yourself, and it's about personal branding and recognizing that you're selling yourself before you sell anything, and your reputation which we would have called it back when we were younger, now it's called personal brand is really yours to write, and it's also yours to lose, and recognizing that everything you do and, quite frankly, everything you don't do is affecting people's perception of that. So craft it the way that you want to, sort of like your mom's advice dress for the job you want. Craft yourself for the brand that you want. Make sure that you're reinforcing that out there and being authentic and y'all are from the South side, y'all understand this. Don't get a little big for your britches, right? You got to be you. You got to be authentic every single day and every interaction.
Speaker 3:Yeah, authenticity, I think, is big. That's one of the biggest things we push in our sales process is that I'm going to give you all the lines. I'm going to do this and you know we have a hard job in our case because you've got to be estimator and salesperson all at the same time and again you got to use your. You got to use the detail part of your brain and then you also use the sales part. But I, like I can tell you how I do it. But you got to be you and like the current guy I'm training is a very straight dude. He just doesn't do the sarcasm and humor that I do, like if somebody says something, they're like, hey, can you fit around there? I'm like I'm not that fat yet, uh, you know. But he can't do that. So I'm like you, you got to be you, you gotta, you gotta. And so I'm trying to figure out lines he can use that will help him. But you know they can't be funny off, because I I'll never forget I tried to use a line one of my sales guys did with a customer because I can be funny, but I can't be this funny and the guy says something and my other sales guys have said sometimes you've got to put your big boy pants on and saddle up and ride.
Speaker 3:So I said sometimes you got to put your big boy pants up and settle out and ride. And he looked at me and I look back and it was one of those things, like you know, again do the old RCA Victor dog right. We both did this and I said I apologize. I said I was trying to use a sales line that one of my guys taught me. I said I just don't have it. He goes yeah, don't ever use that one again.
Speaker 3:I ended up getting the job because I was off. I said look, you're authentic I was. I was like, let me back up. You know, right, I'm a general contractor. I'm telling you you got options. You can do it this way or that way, but my recommendation is to do it the more expensive way because I think it'll come back and bite you. I think you should try it again. That was the best I challenged you.
Speaker 2:Look to me and I looked at him and I went.
Speaker 3:That's not statistically relevant.
Speaker 2:You need at least five. Do I do? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Sometimes you got to put your big boy bridges on saddle up and ride. I just didn't have that in me.
Speaker 1:I just have images of the movie Tommy Boy when he was trying to use the phrase. And it's like the same kind of thing. It's got to be your bull, so like there you go.
Speaker 3:And then at the end we actually use that one. In fact, we actually used that one. In fact, we just used this in sales training. This morning, when he goes, guy says nope, he goes, all righty. Then all right, we're done, okie dokie, okie, dokie, all righty then great, great, great movie, oh my goodness but that's a sales movie but.
Speaker 1:I need to videotape him, uh, when he does this, this, uh, saddle up and ride again. I'm gonna need to see video.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that could be.
Speaker 3:That could be your number one short that you know what I'm gonna have to, probably cindy remind me. We're gonna do that one. I'm gonna play that one back out because if, if you could have been there and seen, I mean, I'm living this vividly now, and it's been like put your face on when you do it I should.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, so that's what I was going to ask, doc. All right, doc. So you grew up in the panhandle of florida. For those who don't know the panhandle of florida or florida in general, if you're a contractor from florida, it's not how. If you lifted your truck, it's just how many inches you lifted your truck. So how many inches did you lift your pickup truck before you left?
Speaker 1:I didn't have a truck, I had a little red car with T-tops. That's how long ago.
Speaker 3:Oh, cars with T-tops. Oh, of course you did.
Speaker 1:From the panhandle. Of course I had a car with T-tops, of course you did Smoking the bandit she's riding.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, it's awesome, all right. So you got two books out, obviously, and a new york times bestseller. So you guys, guys, we are getting seriously for free, you're getting a chance to listen to how cool we are, but we're gonna have to wrap this sucker up because we've got probably like 10 more minutes and I definitely want to get to those final four questions. But, um, is there one more big question? What did we miss? What is the one secret Give me?
Speaker 2:something. I love that question, though what's the question I didn't ask. The question I didn't ask. Yeah, what's the best question? We didn't ask.
Speaker 1:Great question. The question you didn't ask that I think your audience would really like to know is how do you get everybody in your organization involved in the sales process?
Speaker 2:Well, you fire the ones that don't right. Chris, that's what I do. Am I wrong? Yes, and.
Speaker 3:Yes and yes and.
Speaker 2:Yes, and.
Speaker 1:But they've got to be bought in right, like that's part of the challenge.
Speaker 2:They've got to be bought in, right, like that's part of the challenge. They got to be bought in with what you're doing here. When they see the other ones with the box in their hand walking out the door, then they buy in quick, right? Chris?
Speaker 3:I mean, I didn't even let him go out with the box, he just grabbed his mouse and said I'm done.
Speaker 1:Fear works, fear works. I mean, use that Fear and power.
Speaker 3:Thank yes, and All right, Doc, give us a better one.
Speaker 1:But I think it's about getting them bought into how this is going to help them. At the end of the day and I think that's the part we forget is the mandate is given, everybody's going to do this, and that's something we tell our clients all the time. They'll say well, this is a mandatory meeting. Never say that. Never say that, because that means you've taken completely away my human choice. Never say that, because that means you've taken completely away my human choice.
Speaker 1:What you want to do is give people options, help them to see there is an easier path to do this. If you adopt this, there is job security. If you start to do these things, you will have greater team members that you can lean on, because we will have capacity to hire. There are lots of ways to help them to see how this is going to benefit them. At the end of the day and I think a lot of leaders skip that they just sort of throw out the mandate or they'll give the goal and say, okay, well, everybody go do it, do they know how. And then you have to give them support. You have to give them help and coaching and training on it as well, but the way to do it is get them to see why this is going to help them first, and then it helps the company.
Speaker 3:Amen, that is awesome. I love that one Cause I do training with my uh, my entire office, uh, we get together, uh everybody, every other Wednesday and I had one guy and I've had multiple guys over the years come up and say hey, you don't pay me for the training. I said you want 20 bucks for that hour. You can, I said, but if you're not catching what I'm putting down, I said you're missing out on 500 bucks this month, this week alone.
Speaker 3:I'm cause I'm teaching you how to get add on sales. I'm teaching you how to get a better transaction. I'm teaching you how to get into a transaction with a customer, make it happen and get out of there and get a tip, get a review, which I actually pay you for. I'm like, if that's what you're thinking the whole time you're in training, and then on the flip side the positive side of this is, I've had some guys say you know what? Um I? I actually start to look forward to that training. I didn't believe it in the beginning, but now I get what you're, what you're doing, and it's helped me and I've been able to do great things for my family. So I'd love hearing that.
Speaker 1:Wow, love that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's awesome.
Speaker 3:All right, doc, we all need to figure out how to find you. So how do we find you? And let's get into those final four questions.
Speaker 1:Excellent. So I can be found at drcindycom, d-r-c-i-n-d-ycom or at 1ST Lady of Sales, first Lady of Sales, on all the different platforms and orangeleafconsultingcom orangeleafacademycom.
Speaker 3:We'll put those all in the show notes. We're going to do all that. Now, let's get into it, shall we? Let's do it All right. What is the favorite book you would refer to our audience that you didn't write? That's right, and it doesn't have to be a bestseller. Disclaimer Come on.
Speaker 1:So the book that I used to use when I was a college professor, that I used for interpersonal communication, was how to Win Friends and Inf. It's an oldie but a goodie and I think it should be required reading for adulting.
Speaker 2:So hands down. We don't use mandatory.
Speaker 3:No, it's going to make your life better. We're going to make your life better. That was a test the doctor gave us right there. Yeah, that's good, we were listening, I was listening, I'm opting in. I'm opting in. Yes, please, yes, please.
Speaker 1:All right, the favorite feature of your home, my balcony. Actually, all right, because go ahead, lay it out. I can see the transamerica building, it's because you're in san francisco on the hill.
Speaker 3:That's looking awesome. We're in a great city to be in. I know it's getting some bad press but uh, but people who live there are like dude wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't go by that area anyway, so it doesn't matter it's funny you say that literally everybody's like, oh my gosh, are you guys still there? I'm like y'all know me, I'm kind of prissy, like I wouldn't be here if it was what the news is showing all right, awesome, all right.
Speaker 3:So you talked about this, customer service and sales and all that. One of the things that alan and I really pride ourselves on is that, when it comes to customer service, we are customer service freaks, yeah, let's go. All right, doc. What is the customer service pet peeve of yours when you're out and you're the customer?
Speaker 1:having to repeat myself what say that?
Speaker 3:sarcasm, smart ass, don't know.
Speaker 1:We're all of them gold star for both, right yeah all, all right.
Speaker 3:Give us an example.
Speaker 1:So you tell one person, then you get transferred to another person, or you got to go tell this person the story, then you got to go tell it to them. Or they say, oh, I just read your notes. Can you tell it to me again? No, you're wasting my time. These are billable hours. I told it to one person. That should be enough to get me a solution, and that is one of my biggest pet peeves is having to just repeat it excellent, that's a, that is a great one.
Speaker 3:All right, all right. Prissy t-tops, here we go. We got to hear a diy nightmare story, though, because we love this stuff. I just brought this thing up to somebody else the other day and I'm like no, I want, I want something better. He goes oh, dude, I just don't do much. I'm like, dude, I can tell you like every one of my fingers has had a nail in it. I said there are. I mean, yeah, I know, don't worry, they're still here.
Speaker 2:Um, I didn't cut them yet, yet one left, um, so so give us a DIY, because you show it to me an awful lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right so, truth be told, I'm not much of a diy kind of gal, but I was pretty proud of myself that I figured out how to resurface the bathroom cabinets. And my husband was out of town and I you know you can find anything on youtube and the hardware store you find the guy that looks like he knows what he's doing and then he'll help you. So I uh, I them all all the different cabinet parts off, got everything done. This was a long time ago. Not proud of this, but I didn't have like an electric screwdriver, so I was literally doing this with it, couldn't figure out which hinge went with which one, couldn't get the doors back on the right ways, so ended up having to call somebody to come and help me at the very end who bought his magic electric screwdriver and did what took me 45 minutes in like five minutes.
Speaker 1:So, a little embarrassed by that, but hey, it's a true story.
Speaker 3:That's a little one, but that's a big one. People don't realize that one. So sometimes you get in there and you start deconstructing everything. You're like you know what? I'm going to change out my own outlet, I can do that. And you go in there and it's a three-way and they're like oh, I did that. Um all here. Here's the thing I would tell everybody always take a picture of it with your phone before you get started in today's world and then don't be afraid to actually go ahead and put some numbers on things. It's okay, you can tape it, because you don't know how it goes together. And uh, that's, that's definitely a great lesson. And that's what happened to you with your hinges and those cabinet doors. That's amazing. Yep, that's funny.
Speaker 1:It's a good one. Funny. You say that he actually asked me he goes. Did you number them? No, the youtube video did not tell me to number them uh, this is so well, I love zoom um.
Speaker 3:It says I raised my hand, uh, to talk. I'm like I don't. I don't raise my hand to talk, I just talk, baby. All right, everybody, you just went to graduate school, so go get your caps on graduation season. Move that tassel over to the right side, I would. I don't even know, that doesn't matter. What was it, doc? You did it a couple times I'm trying to remember.
Speaker 1:Oh, from the left to the right, you've done it, you've graduated. Go put some of this. I don't even know, it doesn't matter. What was it, doc?
Speaker 3:You did it a couple times I'm trying to remember oh yep, left side, right side, move it from the left to the right. You've done it, you've graduated. Go, put some of this stuff in action. Go back and re-listen to it. My challenge to you is before you get to that next episode, try something. Always be selling yourself. Doc this with some of your folks. Share this with other people too. Let them know, follow us, give us a share, put your big white britches on, chris, and let's go out and saddle up and ride.
Speaker 3:We're out of here, Cheers everybody, Thank you for listening to this episode of the Small Business Safari. Remember your positive attitude will help you achieve that higher altitude you're looking for in the wild world of small business ownership. And until next time, make it a great day.
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