The Small Business Safari
Have you ever sat there and wondered "What am I doing here stuck in the concrete zoo of the corporate world?" Are you itching to get out? Chris Lalomia and his co-host Alan Wyatt traverse the jungle of entrepreneurship. Together they share their stories and help you explore the wild world of SCALING your business. With many years of owning their own small businesses, they love to give insight to the aspiring entrepreneur. So, are you ready to make the jump?
The Small Business Safari
The Art of Business Law: Protecting Your Entrepreneurial Journey | Brandon Woodward
Ever wonder what keeps your friendly neighborhood business attorney up at night? Hint: it's watching entrepreneurs shake hands on partnerships without proper documentation, then having to pick up the pieces when it all falls apart.
Brandon Woodward, founder of Woodward, Kelly, Fulton and Kaplan, cuts through the legal mystique to deliver straight talk about protecting your small business. With 25 years of experience guiding entrepreneurs through the legal landscape, Brandon shares why waiting until there's a problem to seek legal help is like trying to buy insurance while your house is already on fire.
The conversation tackles those awkward but essential discussions business partners need to have while everyone's still smiling and optimistic. Brandon explains why documenting agreements upfront prevents costly disputes when unexpected circumstances arise. "Silent partners are never silent," he warns, highlighting how proper documentation protects everyone involved when reality inevitably differs from rosy projections.
Cash flow challenges get special attention as Brandon reveals why collections issues can sink even profitable businesses. "A business can run in the red for decades, but you can only run out of cash one time," he notes, offering practical advice for maintaining healthy receivables without alienating clients.
Perhaps most valuable is Brandon's guidance on building business cultures that retain talent. He shares a philosophy that resonates deeply: "Train employees so well they could work anywhere. Treat them so well they won't want to." Through profit-sharing and meaningful inclusion, Brandon demonstrates how legal structures can support rather than hinder positive workplace dynamics.
For business owners contemplating an exit, Brandon's insights on preparing years in advance for a sale prove invaluable. His free white paper (available at wkfklaw.com) outlines steps to maximize value and ensure smooth transitions.
Ready to protect what you've built? This episode delivers the legal wisdom every entrepreneur needs without the intimidating billable hours. Your business deserves more than a handshake and good intentions—give it the legal foundation to thrive.
What about employees? How do you help small businesses there?
Speaker 2:They always say you know, I've heard around here that the customer is king or the customer is always right. Human capital is incredibly important. I think Victoria might have gone through some of your folks to set this up today. Invest in people, show them training, give them a stake in the outcome, in the growth so many business owners try to get. That I'm the boss.
Speaker 2:It was done to me this way. You know I learned you know at Fezziwig's shop from A Christmas Carol. You know I learned you know the hard way. I was an intern, an apprentice. I trucked concrete up the hill for a horrible boss. Okay, it's 2025. You can't do that. Give your employees real stake, real ownership in the company. We have a profit share here at Woodward, kelly, fulton and Kaplan, we set a number, we hit the target number and everybody shares in the upside of that. Partners have our stuff, but the employees are certainly invested in the success of the firm and it works. It's some famous thinker it's not my, it's not my line, henry Ford, maybe it was. Train them so well that they could work anywhere. Treat them so well that they won't want to.
Speaker 1:Oh God, that's good, that is so good, Good tagline. Welcome to the oh God that's good, that is so good.
Speaker 3:Oh good tagline Welcome to the Small Business Safari, where I help guide you to avoid those traps, pitfalls and dangers that lurk when navigating the wild world of small business ownership. I'll share those gold nuggets of information and invite guests to help accelerate your ascent to that mountaintop of success. It's a jungle out there and I want to help you traverse through the levels of owning your own business that can get you bogged down and distract you from hitting your own personal and professional goals. So strap in Adventure Team and let's take a ride through the safari and get you to the mountaintop Go you ready?
Speaker 1:Are you telling me we're live right now?
Speaker 3:We're live right now. Everybody, let's get rocking and rolling. And you know what? That's what happens. We wait for the lady to say recording has started. It didn't happen this time, alan, because we are authentically flawed.
Speaker 2:We are authentically flawed.
Speaker 3:I just got done saying to everybody I'm training some more sales guys. You got to be authentic in the sales process, especially in the home, because it's very personal for a lot of people. It's residential sales, residential home construction that we do. And I said you got to be authentic. I said, but that doesn't mean you got to show your ass. So don't show your ass, but be authentic.
Speaker 1:That's another book chapter.
Speaker 3:I think I'm working on book number two. That's right, burger. The pod has been filling it up with all kinds of great ideas and today we've got another great guest on a field that actually I, I, um, I should say I like it, I just don't, um, you can, as my best friend is a lawyer and now a judge and my son is in law school, I should like law, um, but I just bristle at the fact that I have to deal with lawyers in anything.
Speaker 1:So that's bad right. Well, for a lot of our listeners and I was one of them you had a small business and you think, oh God, if an attorney sets foot in my store, I'm going to get sued for absolutely everything. And I've since he's just about everything.
Speaker 3:And I've I've said he's just about everything, and but I've since made some good friends and I also had a stint in the franchise world where we had our in-house counsel and I gotta say, having your own lawyer is fun, all right, yeah well, if you spend any time with lawyers, that I do make a lot of fun of them and I can because, like I said, it's a little too close to me but they definitely think differently than a lot of people and they understand a lot of the stuff. That goes on and, as we've had some lawyers on over the years, you realize not all lawyers are equal and there's definitely experience that you need to have when you talk to people about it. So today we've got a great one man, brandon Woodward's, coming on to talk to us and as soon as Alan said they'll sue you for everything All. I looked out and saw Brandon go and he goes.
Speaker 1:yes, everything Including that, you know so.
Speaker 3:Brandon, how did you get into law? I'm interested to know if this was something that was always a life passion.
Speaker 2:To a point. I actually started college as a chemistry major and was disabused of that early on by my chemistry professor, put his arm around my shoulder and goes you're not going to make it as a chemistry guy, maybe something else out there? So after that I knew that I could always write well. I knew that I was at least somewhat persuasive or I could always be counted on. I certainly wasn't shy and I certainly wasn't an introvert. So that kind of led me to my undergraduate degree and led me to law school after college. After college I went through a couple of different areas of law until I got into business and corporate, which is the complete opposite of the suing litigation lawyers that you've mentioned.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So go ahead. I was just going to say it's kind of an interesting thought to think of the similarities between chemistry and law. I mean, you're, you're, you're working on a puzzle, I think.
Speaker 3:Well, but he also hit on the thing and this is I'm going to go back now, I'm going to play my son's story back and so I have my master's in mechanical engineering and obviously I've taken a lot of math classes, I've taken a lot of engineering classes, and he's in, he's in college, going to undergrad, and in his sophomore year he said Dad, I have taken my last math class. I said, son, you're talking to an engineer, so I'm not sure how to take that, but this kid can write, and that's the one thing. And he definitely thinks differently than I do. As engineers they think one way and very logical and kind of moving this way, and lawyers are looking at the holistic and then coming in and trying to solve problems in a different method and methodology, and I think that diversity of thought has got to be something that you probably noticed as well.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and it should go. I don't know whether you saw LinkedIn or not. My first corporate counsel job was with a massive engineering company called Black Veatch Engineering. They're headquartered in Kansas City, Missouri. They build nuclear power plants and also nuclear weapons too.
Speaker 1:So they don't need legal help at all.
Speaker 2:They need a lot of legal and they had a fantastic legal team. They were all in-house. You mentioned how nice it is when you have your lawyer down the hall to ask questions too. Learned a lot at that job.
Speaker 2:Engineers do tend to kind of go in a very linear sort of thought process. They try to solve problems when and if there was ever an issue or something with any of our civil projects we also built hydroelectric dams and things like that. It's a big, big civil engineering firm, black Veatch.
Speaker 2:Let's say there was a claim, something didn't work quite right, the engineers would immediately start writing emails to each other, copying the internal legal guys on it, and I would immediately say guys, let's all stop emailing each other real quick and just step outside your offices. They were all in a row. Let's all step outside. Let's go down to the conference room and let's start talking about what went right, what might not have gone so right and things like that. But it is a very engineering trait to go in to solve problems, fix things and make it work. Curiously, that's also a lawyer trait as well. We absolutely absorb other people's problems and you know, if you happen to be married to a lawyer or an engineer, it's sad because we're always trying to fix whatever's wrong instead of listen. Yeah, you might've heard that once or twice before.
Speaker 3:I've been through counseling for that one. That's right. I just want to be heard. Got it? Heard that not solving the problem, nope, don't fix, nope. Okay, yeah, I, I you actually hit on. I think that is the thing that I've instilled with my son is that you solve problems in a different way than I do, but it's still he didn't flash tires. Well, there's a little bit different Now I'm a contractor. So, brandon, I need other legal help. But it's interesting when you bring that diversity of thought in. It helps you make better decisions.
Speaker 3:And one of the things we've talked about a lot on the podcast and the reason we did this and I just reinforced this last night in a networking event they go why are you doing this? I said because you know, when I started my business, I didn't have all these resources. I wish somebody would have told me how stupid of an idea this was to start a business and how hard it was going to be. In that it's not all golfing on Friday and then maybe working a day or two or getting your four-hour work weekend like Tim Ferriss. It's just not happening. So I think having that diversity of thought. So, brandon, you've left the corporate world. That's what we've done, leaving the corporate world. So how are you helping small businesses today?
Speaker 2:Sure. Once I went from Black and Beach Engineering to a very, very large energy producer called NextEra Energy. They are down here in Florida. After a couple of years doing that, I opened my own law firm and I went from representing a Fortune 200 publicly traded company that is NextEra to representing a pet sitter.
Speaker 1:I can see a natural progression there.
Speaker 2:You can see that, yes, I can see a natural progression there. You can see that, yes, the amount of capital in the pet sitting business is not quite as grand as a publicly traded actually the largest energy company in the United States right now. Long and short of it is business, is business, and a lot of you hit it right on the head. Most folks get into it. They're good at what they do and that's great, but at some point you do need to go outside your you know your DIY mindset. Or I can fix it or I can take care of this and reach out to get those advisors you need.
Speaker 2:Now that pet sitter, I met her at a coffee shop. She's still in business today, but by gosh, she has the best corporate books imaginable and, by the way, she has a contract that she now shows her. This is obviously 14, 15 years ago. She had a one page agreement that was her agreement with the pet owners that she was working for. It was very clear what she did. It was clear how she got paid, how the job starts, how the job ends and what the rights, duties and responsibilities are. Along the way it was, it was clean, it was easy to understand and she really, really liked working with me for it, and she's again still in business today. I don't know that she still uses that same contract, that same agreement, but I'd like to think she does.
Speaker 3:You know what, as a small business owner, I'm pretty sure she does, because the last thing I want to do is go back and revisit that, spend money on that, just update it for yet another tagline or another line in there, but so is it safe to say as a start you know you're a wannabe entrepreneur.
Speaker 1:The wise thing to do would be to develop a relationship with somebody in your profession before they need it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. A lot of times people hire my firm to actually start their business. Now, if they're in business with, if an entrepreneur is in business with somebody else or somebody else's money, those need to be documented and documented. Well, if it's two people that are in business, even if they're family, let's get the agreement between the owners set down in writing right now, at the outset, while everybody's smiling and optimistic. Let's not wait for a downturn or maybe some unfortunate incidents, some hard times. That's not the time you want to start looking at. Well, what is my deal with my brother, my family member or my business partner? I can tell you for certain that a silent partner, someone that just provides capital to the company, silent partners, are never silent. There are strings attached to that money, regardless of what they say. So get those kind of deals documented in writing early on. If you're dealing with someone else or someone else's money, be sure you have a very clear understanding of how that works.
Speaker 3:That is a great point. I'm in a CEO mastermind group and one of the ladies is thinking of exiting her company and somebody is interested in acquiring her. And we group and one of the ladies is thinking of exiting her company and somebody's interested in acquiring her. And we said you know, the first thing you got to do is get the divorce agreement put together. I said you're all happy now, but let's get that divorce agreement now. So, brandon, you hit on that. It's hard to do because everybody wants to be happy and say, oh no, don't worry, alan's going to be really quiet.
Speaker 1:It has that stench of we need a prenup. Yeah, you know you've got this happy partnership going, but to your point you have to do it before you need it.
Speaker 2:I agree. And you know, if we think about a prenup or we can think about, you know, like a will, nobody really likes to think about what happens if someone, one of us where's my stuff going to go when I die? You know, let's say it's just. You know a couple of guys that are in business with a service industry or something like that. They're down here in Florida but mom and dad get sick back in Ohio and somebody has to leave the business. Well, they didn't choose to.
Speaker 2:But how are we going to negotiate one partner and I'm not talking about any sort of corporate formality partner but you know one person that not only is an owner but also a worker, an employee, there. How do we negotiate their exit? Will it kill the company on the way out? It very well could, if you didn't really kind of think about this. Maybe on the front side, death, disability and divorce happen in the real world. And you know a good set of an operating agreement for an LLC, a shareholder agreement for a corporation. Those are absolutely invaluable and they don't have to be long, they don't have to be complicated and they don't have to be expensive to write.
Speaker 3:No, that's a great one. I take us through a little bit of how you get people because you know, potentially there's this guy here next to me that I couriered into this totally free gig calling a free podcast that we're doing. So there's really no partnership, but there's a partnership and there's no money to split up, but there's it. But you know, we're all optimistic. We were like, oh my God, we're going to go over and take over Joe Rogan, we're going to go do this and, by the way, we're almost there, guys, we're almost there. I'm kidding. So. So how do you get people who are optimistic and thinking about, oh, we're going to go blow this thing up and be great, because that's what we are, we're entrepreneurs. We're thinking great. You were thinking great as you went and worked with the pet sitter. I've got those stories too. So how do you get us to talk about that stuff?
Speaker 2:Sure, how are decisions going to get made in good times and in bad times? That's a great opening sort of icebreaker. Let's, that's a great opening sort of icebreaker. Um, let's say, your podcast is doing fantastic, you're doing really well together, uh, and all of a sudden, spotify comes to you and said hey guys, we want to have all your rights, we're going to own you, you're going to wear our t-shirts, we're going to put you on and all the channels. Um, what about would you take? Uh, two and a half million dollars. And one of you says great, let's go, let's get this done. The other of you doesn't. Now, spotify is not going to sit around and negotiate with each of you individually. Your deal has about 48 hours.
Speaker 1:I'm selling it two and a half million. You better, I don't have a partner anymore.
Speaker 2:First of all, you don't have anything between you that says you are, in fact, partners at all. So who's going to get the two and a half? Now, if we do have, if we can at least agree that we are, you guys are in this thing together, 50, 50, or some two. You are in it together. Where we want you both. Spotify Is 2.5 enough and one of you might say, well, let's see if we can, let's see if they'll give us three. No, let's take 2.5. And tick, tick, tick. 48 hours later you guys are squabbling and the deal expires and Spotify says you know what? I don't want to deal with you at all.
Speaker 2:That does happen in the real world. So when I ask about when things go really well, your business, your podcast or whatever industry or service company you're putting together, could be acquired, could attract attention from a competitor to be acquired. Great things could happen for you A big contract. It could take 80% of your capacity. Do you want that? One of you says yes and one of you says no. How are you going to resolve that kind of internal dispute before it drives you apart? The bad side is the bad side. The downside is well, we didn't sell as much product, as we thought we did last month. We're out of cash. We need to feed the beast, we need to pump some money into it. Well, how much? Well, we need another $10,000. Well, I don't have it. What happens then? Those are all great.
Speaker 3:Those are great.
Speaker 2:That's a capital call and we need to say well, we agree that we're going to put at maximum X amount of money and if I hit my limit of what I'm going to spend into it, I've got it written right there. I don't have to give you another dime to feed the beast. If it's not, if I don't have it, or I don't want to, if it's voluntary, sure, keep feeding it until it. Um, guys get into this trouble when they purchase, uh, classic cars or fractional share aircraft, boats, uh, flipping houses, anything that has an unseen sort of. Oh, we had no idea that that fuel pump cost $11,000,.
Speaker 3:You know, on the classic Stearman, you know I have seen that you actually bring up a great one. I've got a friend who is in a fractional ownership. It's not a timeshare, they own a house with 12 other couples and the HVAC went out and somebody had to make the call. They have an operating agreement, had to make the call to use this service, had to make the call on good, better, best, picked best, and two of the people got absolutely roast and pissed about this and left because they're like we didn't agree to best and the guy's like but we need a best because this is a vacation place and this is where you got to have air conditioning and it's, you know, florida. It was in South Carolina. I get that. I get that now.
Speaker 2:With 12 folks in it, that's a very difficult way to make decisions. It's 12 people are never going to agree to anything ever. You know 12 or six couples, or however you've split it apart. At that point you may want to at least nominate somebody for manager, and that's an unpaid, unthanked, crappy position. But somebody gets to make the call on those day-to-day sorts of things and everybody needs to agree to trust that person. Great example a rental or a vacation house and they're using it themselves. They're renting it but air conditioning is expensive. You know, if it was a beachfront and the beach needed nourishment? Or there's a local assessment for beaches, what if there's mold somewhere? I mean, you really got to take these things into consideration. That's the well. If things don't go so well, how do we pass the hat? That should be fairly well documented.
Speaker 3:You know, if we're talking about an LLC, an operating agreement, I think a lot of the reasons that we don't do this as small business owners, that you're thinking about starting one, or you're in it right now and you're like, oh my God, I've already rung the bell, I've already started this business. Brandon's making great points. I think one of the biggest reasons we don't do it is the almighty dollar. So so how expensive or inexpensive is it? And I think you know we talk about that. You know how expensive it is to blow up your company. You have to ask that question. But I think a lot of us are, and they're afraid of this too, and we're afraid of how to approach you. So how do we approach you and what should we expect?
Speaker 2:OK, well, obviously it's. It's very market sensitive, whether it's my firm or any other business law firm. We are kind of a specialty niche and I've been at it for 25 years. So you can expect my hourly rate is going to be kind of up there amongst attorneys you know across the country. You're not going to get my hourly rate on a podcast.
Speaker 3:I wasn't asking that, but in fact everybody's less tactful than me. I know I was like, well, you can go out there and chat GPT, you guys will find it out. I mean, you can't expect somebody with this kind of experience to do this for free, just like in our business. Don't come to me and say, chris, you're too expensive to build my deck because I built an incredible deck for somebody who is looking really good. No, I'm kidding.
Speaker 1:If I wanted to sue this guy for this, I wouldn't there you go Well, so I'm assuming you can probably do a retainer or you can probably do a la carte.
Speaker 2:I do different things for different kinds of work. My mergers and acquisitions are generally done on a flat fee schedule because hourly doesn't make a lot of sense for that. We can spend eight hours working on one schedule of an acquisition and you certainly don't want to pay $600 plus an hour for that kind. You know to work on one part of one part of the deal. But getting back to let's just talk about an agreement between business owners. Certainly that's going to be an hourly rate sort of engagement, depending on how complex and detailed you need it to be.
Speaker 2:The basics are generally out there. I know what a good operating agreement should have. We could talk about the death, disability and divorce and how, the different things that could happen to the life of the business. We talked about capital calls. All those would be in a 20, 30-page document written by me or one of my associates. And uh, and you're charged for it. Is it 3,000, 5,000, $8,000? It might be any number of those numbers but here. But if you decide to squabble about it and you don't like each other, guess what Litigators are more expensive than I am? First of all, your company's going under, so everything you built is flushed. And two, now you're going to sue each other.
Speaker 3:Here we go. You know who makes money in litigation. You do lawyers, you do damn it. All right, guys, brandon woodward, go get to it because, listen, it's just not as expensive as you think. Uh, I did the same thing. I was fearful of it and I realized I had to have somebody look at some contracts. It wasn't that bad and it's just like anything. When you hire a professional, they're not going to take 40 hours to look at something that they have the experience on. So you can't take 40 times $800 an hour or whatever it's going to be, but you can't also expect these guys to work for 25 bucks an hour either. So get real with it and do it right.
Speaker 1:Well, I also assume that if you're trying to avoid legal fees and you let a problem compound, then it's going to end up being much more expensive than if you just talked to your attorney up front. And so I wanted to ask you you know, outside of the operating agreement, what are some things that you see that small business people should be picking up the phone and calling you proactively? For that they're not.
Speaker 2:Collections. Every day your account receivable goes over 30, 60, or 90, or whatever your pain point is, is a day further away from you getting paid. It happens in the construction and services industry, especially if there's a set of draws or it's a stream of payments. Shockingly, all my contractors tend to get stiffed on that last final draw payment. And you guys both know that's where the profit is, because you paid for materials and you paid your labor. The profit's on the last payment.
Speaker 2:So collections for small businesses is critical. There's an old expression a business can run in the red for decades, but you can only run out of cash one time. That's true. And if your cashflow is gone because you're not billing, you're not collecting and you're not on top of your AR, the long-term prospects for your business are not great. So having a relationship with a law firm, particularly one that gets the job done, we send one letter and then we're off. We will actually file a collections lawsuit. That generally gets the job done. But it's not easy, it's not cheap. That is hourly rate kind of stuff, um. But you know, you get a reputation for not letting your AR go and and that's what you want in business. You want to be paid, not have stories told to you. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:to be paid, not have stories told to you. Does that make sense? A hundred percent, man, you're singing my song. I love that idea because you said something that's so big. We have an intern working with us this summer and I said here's things that you're probably not going to hear in school. I said in a small business or running any business, cash is king. If I don't have no cash, I can't pay people. If I can't pay people, guess what they don't do? They don't work for me. You got to have the cash, bro, I said. Second thing is you got to have sales, man. I got to be bringing in that revenue. I got to be ringing that bell bringing in that revenue so I can get that cash. I said but there's two different reports for that and can only run out of cash once, man, and I would tell you 17 years at least three different times. I should have shut it down because I was out of cash and I was dipping into personal funds just to make it keep going. What about?
Speaker 1:employees. How do you help small businesses there?
Speaker 2:um, they always say you know, I've heard around here that the, the, the customer is king or the customer is always right. Human capital is incredibly important. I think Victoria might have gone through some of your folks to set this up today. Invest in people, show them training, give them a stake in the outcome, in the growth so many business owners try to get that I'm the boss. It was done to me this way. You know I learned you know at Fezziwig's shop from A Christmas Carol. You know I learned you know the hard way.
Speaker 2:I was an intern, an apprentice. I worked, I trucked concrete up the hill for a, you know, horrible boss. Okay, it's 2025. You can't do that. Give your employees real stake, real ownership in the company. We have a profit share here. At Woodward Kelly, fulton and Kaplan we set a number, we hit the target number and everybody shares in the upside of that. Partners have our stuff, but the employees are certainly invested in the success of the firm and it works. The employees are certainly invested in the success of the firm and it works. It's some famous thinker it's not my line Henry Ford, maybe it was train them so well that they could work anywhere. Treat them so well that they won't want to oh.
Speaker 1:God, that's good, that is so good.
Speaker 3:Oh, good tagline. Oh my God, yeah, great, yeah, we'll find out who. It's not a me thing great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll find out who. It's not a me thing, but it's really important. Find activities outside of the office that actually does benefit your business. It is subtle. Get them involved with charities. Victoria networks constantly. She's in young professionals of our county. She goes to that, has coffee with all the other young professionals and gee you know what. Not only does it build her up of the employee, the status you can always give some person some training. Side note there cross-training. What happens when your bookkeeper leaves? What happens when your biller of your medical practice, your best biller, just says, hey, I don't do this anymore or I'm out on maternity leave? Well, you better have somebody that can cover the base for a couple of days until something else happens. So cross-training is huge and certainly certainly be transparent and cut your employees in on the successes.
Speaker 3:So now let's talk about business and get away from the law stuff a little bit. So you did, you started your law business. You started on your own. You didn't go in with a partner, you did it yourself. You've grown to that maturity level that you just said. There Did you feel like?
Speaker 2:you had that same maturity level and culture building mindset when you were first starting? Absolutely not. I was arrogant, like all young lawyers were. I thought I could just be business lawyer and everybody would just show up and fawn over all the jewels that were falling out out of pearls of wisdom, falling out of my mouth hey, that's not just a lawyer thing, that is all of us.
Speaker 1:No, it's an allen thing. Yeah, it's an entrepreneur thing right?
Speaker 3:yeah, it is, I mean when you started your biz you were like hey, I have bulletproof.
Speaker 1:I said I remember actually saying this is going to be a turkey shoot I know.
Speaker 3:So I think that's the thing. Again, when you talk to people who've been around it enough, I mean, you're dropping great nuggets. Everything you've said so far. You know, the culture is key for me too, but in the beginning, though, that wasn't my culture yeah, it was. I was kind of hey, I'm really smart. You ought to listen to what I'm saying, which, by the way, somebody might have heard like a week ago. Which, by the way, somebody might have heard like a week ago yeah, that isn't true, with a lot of F-bombs, but yeah. So I love how you've evolved in that, and actually you've mentioned your firm too, and now you have partners. So are they younger, same age? How did you do that as you evolved your culture? Tell us a little bit about that growth.
Speaker 2:Well, I was working, still solo. It was the law office of Brandon Woodward for 10 plus years or so, built a nice following, had a nice base, had a good group of companies and clients that followed me. But one thing that I didn't really have access to was litigation. I mentioned collections. I mentioned when things go badly between partners and things like that. I'm not a litigator. I've never seen the inside of a Florida courtroom and I'm not starting at 51 years old. I'm not a litigator. I've never seen the inside of a Florida courtroom and I'm not starting at 51 years old. I'm not starting now, so it's not a skill I have. So the bottom line is I needed litigators and I needed some other attorneys in the just to kind of hey, this is more than I want to chew. I need litigation or I need the credible threat of litigation.
Speaker 2:There was another firm that did litigation and a healthy amount of bankruptcy practice, as well as foreclosure and real estate. We actually ended up me and my partner, craig Kelly, ended up butting heads. We were on the opposite side of transactions for two or three different times. We bloodied each other. It was not even close, we just enjoyed kicking each other's ass over and over again. Sometimes he won, sometimes I won.
Speaker 2:But about a year on I needed his level of just bulldog ruthlessness. I had a client that needed somebody just torn apart, and I'd go hey, craig, I can't do this, this. You need to take this, this case, off my hands. He goes, happy to do it. Here we go, same time, same bat channel. He goes I have no idea how to work a three-party waterfall distribution for a shareholders that have disparate contributions. I go that's easy, brandon, would you handle this for me? So we became really good friends and, out of that warfare that we engaged with for a couple of years, we became buddies. We started trusting each other. We stitched the firms together in 2018, 2019 to become Woodward, kelly, fulton and Kaplan. Mr Fulton retired two years ago for health reasons. Dana Kaplan is my other partner. She's she's an incredible attorney, smart as heck, an absolute worker bee. She comes into the office, puts her headphones on and a pile of files goes from this side to that side.
Speaker 2:Billable hours go out the door but meet a client for a cocktail, go out on a golf trip, for you know, to see if I can bag. You know a bigger client Won't do it, doesn't like it, just doesn't. It's not, it's not her strength and you know the three of us. And now we have associates. We have another partner, we've got other folks around and we were doing just fine. I have one associate that works for me exclusively. She happens to be in India. She graduated the University of Ohio School of Law and went back to India and she's over there and does quite a bit of my drafting for me.
Speaker 1:I just love so much of what he said and I got to think if I were an attorney and there was somebody on the other side of the table who was kicking my ass, I'd be so pissed. And yet he's sitting there going. Well played, nice. You know, maybe we can do some business together.
Speaker 3:So, again, something you can learn from lawyers is that they I've seen that happen to Troy Again. My best friend, who's now a judge, has done the same thing and I'm like, dude, there's no way. I said I'll be lucky if that dude walks in that thing. I said I don't even own a gun, I'll find a gun, and if I can't find a gun, I'm going to beat the shit out of him. If I get the shit kicked out of me, I said I'll find his car and I'll beat them, I'll beat his kids, I'll beat everybody. I said, no, this Sicilian is not going, not doing it, he goes. Chris, sometimes you have to look at the greater good. I'm like, well, that's no fun, right? So, brandon, how were you able to reconcile that and become this partnership and build this culture? I mean, that's, I think, another great question that people want to hear. Did you just give yourself a great question.
Speaker 1:I did that sucks.
Speaker 2:That does not count on the scoreboard.
Speaker 1:Thank you, brandon, not on the scoreboard. Thank you, brandon. No, denied. What do they say? It's not sustained, it's denied tonight.
Speaker 2:How did we get to a point where we got to be a good partnership? I think it's how you get to be a good business owner in general, and Craig is an amazing business partner. You have to set your ego aside and that is key to being successful in business is you don't know everything all the time. Like I said, getting punched out a few times will teach you very quickly that, oh, I'm never going to learn this guy's skill. And, more importantly, why don't I just hire this guy to do this for me? Let's do it that way.
Speaker 2:I am the rainmaker of the firm. I go out, I will work a room, I will come back with three to four contacts and just say hey, we spoke the other day at a chamber of commerce event. You said you had a business and you were worried about retaining your employees or employee retention, or you're worried about tariffs, you were worried about X. Would you like to come by my office and have a coffee? Now our office is in a very, very fancy building. You come in it's kind of impressive and you sit down in one of our conference rooms, or even my office right here, you know, and you get the full effect Like, hey, this is.
Speaker 2:We do business all day long and it's all we do. I won't help you with your divorce, your personal injury, your will, or if your kid gets caught in a pot with pot in her locker. I'm terrible at all of those things. But if it's business, ask me the questions, I'll give you the answers. If you want to hire us, great. If you don't, that's great too. That's putting the ego aside and just being yourself and being natural. But yeah, my partners and I all got chilled our egos a long time ago and realized that we can go again the.
Speaker 2:African proverb go farther together.
Speaker 3:That kind of thing, Right, yeah, no great point, and I think obviously that's something you have to just work on with the egos. So how do you guys, what's your operational model now? Do you guys get together once a week, talk about business? Is it once a month? Look at the books, look at everything. Is it just organic because you're in the same building together?
Speaker 2:We're not in the same building. We have two different offices. We are 26 miles apart. We talk very infrequently, it's just.
Speaker 2:I know Craig and Dana are what they do and how they work. We are fairly siloed. Our business economic model is still eat what you kill. We have shared expenses. We have shared certain things we share amongst each other. But I'm not a bankruptcy attorney and I don't want to be a bankruptcy attorney and I'm not sharing in their bankruptcy practice. Similarly, they're not mergers and acquisition attorneys and so when I bring home, when I do mergers and acquisitions, that's, that's my, my part of the firm. So the Eat what you Kill model is still out there. It's certainly popular with other professional you know organizations model is still out there. It's certainly popular with other professional organizations doctors, financial planners, accountants, podcasters. Thank you, hey. A lot of eating, a lot of killing. But that is our business model and I think we email each other once a week or so, get together once or twice a year but, like a lot of business things, you don't need to see each other every single day and sometimes we even get on each other's nerves, believe it or not, like every family does.
Speaker 3:Yeah, let's talk about the business side of this, because I just had somebody say you know, chris, I'm thinking about getting into consulting. I said so when you want to get into consulting. Why is that? Oh, I just think I have some really good ideas to help people. I said you realize, to actually make a business and make this actually work, you're probably going to be anywhere between 60 and 98% business development and 2% and 40% of coaching. I said, but you'll never be a hundred percent coaching because you're always going to have to be out there feeding the beast, feeding the funnel if you want to keep rolling.
Speaker 3:And when I said this to this one guy, he was looked at me like you know, but people don't know how, you don't know how smart I am. I looked at him. I'm like, yeah, I've been there before buddy. So obviously, brandon, you guys have figured that out too. Tell us a little bit about how you have been marketing your firm, because a lawyer again, it's a very personal relationship. It's not a transaction. This is not personal injury law. This is not some stupid billboard that you're going to see 55 times in the city of Atlanta between 25 different personal injury lawyers.
Speaker 1:So how do they find it? I think he just answered it. He's involved in the community, he works the room, he actually listens and he hears him mention something that he might actually be able to help with and invites him over for a cup of coffee to the big ass, you know the war room.
Speaker 2:It's it's, you know, when a lawyer takes interest in you and invites you to their office, why wouldn't you take that? Why wouldn't you accept that? Now I work in a smaller town, I mean my. My town is, you know, our whole County is only like a hundred thousand people, um, but the bottom line is it's, you know. It's like I got nothing to lose. You know my Froyo, you know business is just taking off and this attorney, who dresses well and everybody seems to know who he is and he's got a decent presence online, I think I'll go. Yeah, he wants to go get a car, and I am genuinely interested in them. I want to learn from them, just like you know they want to learn from me. I give them the same. Hey, are you in business with somebody or somebody else? What does your agreement look like with your suppliers? Do you want me to look at that for you?
Speaker 2:Or here's two things you could do tomorrow to hundreds, if not thousands, of other businesses. What challenges do you face? Oh, if I only had a ready supply of X. Do you know that there's a supplier of X on the other side? You know, one town over. I didn't know that.
Speaker 3:I think that's another part that, alan, one of the reasons we're doing this podcast is because Alan's exceptionally good at this is great connecting. In that I'm not here for me, I'm here to find out about you, find out about what I can do to help you and connect, and I think that's part of the thing that really grows. That's why you're here, buddy.
Speaker 1:Well, I was just thinking about the connection that you just told me about last night that we did.
Speaker 3:So, brandon, we've been doing this podcast for three and a half years and a lot of business has been done because of our podcast. But what we didn't know is that we're also a dating service and we actually were able to make a match because a lady saw somebody on our podcast on the YouTube channel don't forget to check it out, small Business Safari and said, hey, I'm pretty interested in this guy, and found and sought him out and they ended up going on a date and I actually met him last night.
Speaker 2:I'm like holy crap.
Speaker 3:I'm good, married 21 years so I think I've got so Brandon's off the market.
Speaker 2:Everybody, do not look him up that part of the equation may be working in my favor, but However, let's talk a little bit about who is your ideal client.
Speaker 3:So, guys, listen to this thing. They may not be in Stewart Florida, but they, uh, they may be in the U? S, they not, may not be in one of the other. Who is a good client for you? Who's calling you?
Speaker 2:Uh, a business owner. That really is the. You know that's who I speak most directly to. You know who I also talk to the business owner spouse, because that's the one that listens to the complaints every single day and is tired of doing the books for the business. Business owners that are in business with other other business. You know a small group of guys, again with your, with the, the, the rental property. Those are my kinds operational businesses, manufacturers, things like that, that put out products, service providers, certainly the professional sides of things.
Speaker 2:I represent lots and lots of physician groups, accountant groups, financial planning groups, accounting groups, actuary you name the group even law firms. We do it all because business law is wide ranging. It's also rather fluid. It's not a dry and dusty practice area. It does change from time to time, changes with the news, it changes with the market, it changes with laws, do change we were having a change in the state of Florida how non-competes are going to be handled in the near future.
Speaker 2:So, like I said, a good client for me is a business owner that has had some reasonable success or they're a little past startup, a little past the crying into the pillow and worrying about payroll. And, trust me I've been there that just wants some questions. That has some questions about how business works or what maybe their next step should be my favorite clients in the world and I can do this in the state of Florida, I can somewhat help and advise on a national scale, and those are business owners that are selling their businesses. I've got a white paper on my website that talks about how that process actually works. It's free, just go download it. The idea of selling a business should start two, if not three years ahead of time. If you don't have that luxury again, people get sick. Markets change forces, the stranger things happen. But the bottom line is you want to be thinking about how do I get out of my business down the road when that offer comes, or how do I find an offer?
Speaker 2:How do I send it off to get it to someone else? Or a second generation? And I'm here to tell you second generation, they don't want your business, they don't want your shoe company, they don't. What happens? You just close it. No, I genuinely love mergers and acquisitions work. It's the buying and selling of businesses and I think I've got a nice touch on dealing with those clients.
Speaker 3:So how can everybody find you let's find that white paper how can everybody find Brandon?
Speaker 2:Certainly. I have a website. We actually just had it redone. It's wkfklawcom. That's whiskey, kilo foxtrot, kilo lawcom. You click any button on there for contact. It's going to go to me or my assistant. We generally return calls and emails within a day or so. It's a very Midwest thing, very Kansas City. We do talk to people.
Speaker 2:A lot of Floridas get a bad rap for kind of not being communicative. I actually chaired my own disciplinary committee for my county. Number one complaint was communication. You know, people just drop off the face of the earth with a case involved. That doesn't happen at my firm and, like I said, we do talk to our clients. Prospective clients get back to everybody and give them some time. Sometimes it's not a lot, but we will help as much as we can. So the website is clearly the best.
Speaker 2:We are heavily in on LinkedIn. I get those messages. I see them. You can certainly read about me, my bio, where I've been. I've done some things over my career that are kind of not that interesting. We're on Instagram and that, according to our social media, has been quite popular for us. Little smaller things. Our social media has been quite popular for us. Little smaller things. Little bite-sized legal. What is this. How does this work? What's the difference between an LLC and an S-corp? They are different. Can an S-corp be an LLC? The answer is yes. Little things like that as well, as it's got some humor to it too. So we are approachable, and you mentioned that earlier. We're afraid of lawyers. When does the bill start?
Speaker 1:Trust me, you'll know when the bill starts.
Speaker 2:It's not a secret when you get a bill, because we actually work on retainers. But other than that, we're very approachable. There's no stupid questions please. I've heard them all and I would much rather you ask me the question than think oh, I didn't ask that because I didn't want to sound stupid. Trust me, that's ego speaking. Sound stupid. Ask the question If you don't know what it is ask.
Speaker 3:Love it. All right, guys, go check it out. You got it. We'll put it in the show notes. You can go figure it out. I know you're probably driving, so let's not do that, but let's get to those final four questions, shall we All right? What's a book you would recommend to all of our audience trying to either start or grow a small business?
Speaker 2:Profit First by Michael Makowski.
Speaker 3:Nice, I like it. Yeah, I actually. I have that one and Fix this. Next is the other one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know that one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was a quick read. I mean I like it. Michalowicz does a good job. I don't think Brandon likes it as much as you do. I know I could tell he gave me a very lawyer response. All right, let's go to the next one, shall we? What's a favorite feature of your home?
Speaker 2:This is South Florida. I do have a pool. It gets so hot Our pools down here actually get too hot to swim in. My pool actually has what's called a heat pump chiller on it so I can actually cool the pool. Oh my god spent an absolute fortune to have that feature put on my pool. But I chill it down and I get in it, uh, with my fruity drink and my floaties oh, love that.
Speaker 3:Everybody's got to have a fruity drink and a floaty in their pool. Three and a half years we haven't gotten that in. We have not gotten that answer. But alan, just look left. It's not chilled, no, but it's it should be this week I know, come on, big daddy, step up. I know I need a chiller damn it.
Speaker 2:I didn't I have a pool. They're fickle too, man, it it works, but it is uh. It just runs and it's expensive and it's I love it, worth it, though.
Speaker 3:Favorite feature that's way cool. All right, one of the things we have not talked about much here but we have about, and that's providing great customer service, because one of the things that Al and I pride ourselves on is we're kind of customer service freaks. Oh my gosh, you did not just say that. Yes, what's the customer service pet peeve of yours when you're out there and you're the client?
Speaker 2:Oh, leave a message. The first thing I did when I started my firm 12, 13 years ago is I hired an answering service. Um it my phone's here answered 24 hours a day. I didn't say they're answered by me, but in any, any facet of law, criminal, particularly criminal people get arrested, oddly enough at night, um, but I never wanted to have. Uh, a potential client call my office and like hi, this is Brandon. Leave a message. All that says is you're not important and they're going down a list. They're going to go to one of your competitors. So leave a message. I hang up. It's like look, there are other veterinarians, there are other, unless I'm referred to to this tile guy or this, you know, this cabinet worker. I'm going down a list to find, you know, my next service provider. So answer the phone, get on your referrals, get on your leads and follow up immediately. That's a pet peeve. When that doesn't happen, that's my pet peeve.
Speaker 3:Well, in the home service industry, that puts you 95 percentile, because that's what happens. So it's an easy thing to do and it's a hard thing to do. So go figure it out, make that happen. That's a hard thing to do, so go figure it out, make that happen. That's a great customer service pet peeve that everybody should understand. All right, let's get to it. I love construction, I love working on the home. That's the reason I got into my business. The Trusted Toolbox Give us a DIY nightmare story of yours, and we love fire, dismemberment, floods, pestilence, pests, flying ants. How, pestilence, pests, flying ants? How about that one?
Speaker 1:I forgot to talk about that. One Florida could be snakes Alligator.
Speaker 2:I am trying to think If I've hit any underground lines. I didn't do it, a contractor did it, so that really wasn't mine, any manner Of office equipment that I have tried to solve. You know, document is due the next day and the printer just pukes, and so I get in there and I start tapering and break it beyond recognition.
Speaker 3:Are fax machines not like the death of me? I mean, I could not work those things back in the corporate world? I can't tell you how many freaking fax machines I blew up or did wrong or I never got it right.
Speaker 2:Printers in general, it's just, you know, any sort of office equipment. I'm decently handy around the house. I can't think of any times I've had to throw in the towel and bring a pro in that's a who, not how book, by the way. And there are times to bring a pro like me, like you, like you know, an accountant. But the bottom line is my DIYs fails are. I have definitely screwed something up on one of my vehicles and, yeah, I was just trying to repair a small part on it and it's behind the trim piece of the tailgate and I couldn't get the tailgate to go back up in it. So it just looked janky and stupid and I had to actually go up to my mechanic and, of course, the other right tool. They just put it right back in for me. But when?
Speaker 3:you drove up, though, was it was a bungee corded no, it was like it was closed you know I could get the door closed I've driven with a bungee corded uh bumper. We come on in the Midwest back in the 70s. Come on, man.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's how you drive home, with a mattress on your roof and a ratchet strap. I did it. I've been there.
Speaker 3:Love this. Brandon Woodward, not your average lawyer Go out there and figure out how to get that business going. Don't be afraid to talk to lawyers. That's what we learned today. And don't be afraid of it. It's not as much as you think it is, and I'll tell you what. It will save you a lot of headaches down the road. We know that Guys keep baking to the great week. We're going to be back next week. Tell your friends, tell your family, tell your kids oh my god, we're thinking about doing true crime podcasts because we're just that big right now. So we got to keep going. Make it a great day. We got to get out of here. Cheers, everybody. Thank you for listening to this episode of the small business safari. Remember, your positive attitude will help you achieve that higher altitude you're looking for in the wild world small business ownership. And until next time, make it a great day.
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