The Small Business Safari
Have you ever sat there and wondered "What am I doing here stuck in the concrete zoo of the corporate world?" Are you itching to get out? Chris Lalomia and his co-host Alan Wyatt traverse the jungle of entrepreneurship. Together they share their stories and help you explore the wild world of SCALING your business. With many years of owning their own small businesses, they love to give insight to the aspiring entrepreneur. So, are you ready to make the jump?
The Small Business Safari
From Bank Teller To CEO: Building Teams That Thrive | Courtney De Ronde
🎧 The Small Business Safari Podcast
Title: From Bank Teller to CEO: Building Teams That Thrive
What if clarity—not hustle—was the real growth lever in your business?
Summary:
We unpack how clarity, boundaries, and respect transform a stressful, travel-heavy audit model into a high-retention, highly profitable practice—and how those same principles help founders escape the default problem solver trap. Courtney shares how she redesigned operations to protect margin, filter the right clients, and build leaders who truly own outcomes.
This conversation is a masterclass in making growth feel lighter. You’ll learn how to turn client pain points into process advantages, say no to misfit work without guilt, and create systems that preserve culture while reducing founder dependency. From financial dashboards to scope control, Courtney breaks down the practical tools that allow founders to lead with intention instead of constant reaction.
If you’re tired of being the bottleneck and ready to scale with clarity, this episode delivers real-world frameworks you can apply immediately.
🎥 Watch the full episode on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@TheSmallBusinessSafari
đź’ˇ GOLD NUGGETS
• Designing a vision that creates real boundaries
• Turning client pain points into operational advantages
• Protecting margin by saying no to misaligned work
• Hiring and leading by strengths—not sameness
• Building leaders who own outcomes, not just tasks
• Using financial dashboards for visibility and control
• Preventing scope creep with better project management
• Creating a client experience that earns renewals
• Letting go of control without losing culture
• Practical intake, scope, and timing filters that work
đź”— Guest Links
• Website: https://forgeahead.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/courtneyderonde/
• Free Complexity Assessment: https://assessments.forgeahead.com
🌍 Follow The Small Business Safari
• Instagram | @smallbusinesssafaripodcast
• LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrislalomia/
• Website | https://chrislalomia.com
Thanks to our sponsor Smart Hire Solutions LLC!
Uh anyway, back to it. I think, you know, your first job that you have, you are a teller. You learn process, you learn that accountability we talked about. Your first leadership position, I think, is also where you take a big step. Uh, and you, you know, for me, it was in consulting uh and it was at Accenture, uh, which was Anderson at the time, and I had three high-performing young people who are all a performers, but I had to learn how to manage the A-performers. And I was glad I got to do it with a small team because I think I had to learn that a lot. Um, because I don't know how many people can go from leading nobody to leading 400 people or leading, you know, you you have to learn as you go. What do you think one of your biggest leadership lessons you learned in your first supervision position?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think uh a big one was not everyone thinks like you do, Courtney. Doesn't that suck?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that should be the I'm I'm assuming that's the first thing you teach people when they hire you for the leadership training.
SPEAKER_04:That is a core. I mean, I have a slide that has the manager who told me that her name is Karen. I have a slide with Karen's face on it that says, not everyone thinks like you, do Courtney.
SPEAKER_00:Karen says, nobody not everyone thinks like you, Courtney. Yeah, got my loss.
SPEAKER_04:And it yeah, it wasn't exactly a compliment. It was, it was uh, it was her encouraging me, encouraging me to understand that I had unique gifts and strengths and abilities, and other people did too, and they were different. And um, you know, if somebody thought of something differently or it didn't come as easily to them as it did to me, it didn't mean that there was something wrong with them and they just needed to get on board. It meant I needed to recognize there's different strengths and gifts here. Uh, so it was a huge self award.
SPEAKER_01:It wasn't that you were you were the nice wallflower, and that's what she was saying is that hey, Courtney, you're being a little too nice to everybody. I got a feeling, CPA. You might have been a little short with people going, what are you, a moron? Are you are you superimposing yourself on our guest? I'm just asking if she's in the same colby called.
SPEAKER_04:Have you heard of Iowa Nice or Midwest Nice? So I'm I'm from Iowa.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know this.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, uh, what does that mean? So culturally, um, we are nice and kind, whether we mean it or not. Uh so it's a little passive. The Iowa Iowa State game, personally.
SPEAKER_01:They couldn't even insult each other. I'm like, that's how you insult people. I'm like, come on, I'll show you how to do this. I'm from Michigan.
SPEAKER_04:So I think I think for me, the way it was showing up was in my impatience. I wanted things to move more quickly. I wanted, which again, this is a this is a difference in my wiring. Um, a lot of CPAs, um, people that are, you know, that are good with financial analysis are wired for minimizing risk, change, and uncertainty. And I'm actually wired for innovation. I like risk, change, and uncertainty. I want to, I want to initiate action, I want to try something, I want to do something. And and that could be frustrating for me if people didn't catch on as quickly or they were pushing against change, or, you know, if something's not working, I'm like, well, it doesn't have to be this way. Let's let's change it. But most of the people around me.
SPEAKER_01:With a smile and you offer them a little corn cob, maybe a little, you know, we can have a little barbecue. Um, corn cob. Well, she's from Iowa. So there's so much flipping of corn there, bro. When I was there, oh my God. I was like, Oh my, you guys are the corn capital.
SPEAKER_03:And I mean, I guess that's set up a casserole or a baked good, but you go straight corn cob.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I did salting. Well, that's well, Alan, we've been doing this for how long now? And you've been my friend for how long? We know that's what I do. And Courtney's gonna sit there and smile because she's Iowa. That's right. Can't believe I signed up for this shit. Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Pretty, yeah, yeah. The the corn on the cob is a little seasonal, but you know, that's fine. You can we'll go with it.
SPEAKER_01:Welcome to the Small Business Safari, where I help guide you to avoid those traps, pitfalls, and dangers that lurk when navigating the wild world of small business ownership. I'll share those gold nuggets of information and invite guests to help accelerate your ascent to that mountaintop of success. It's a jungle out there, and I want to help you traverse through the levels of owning your own business that can get you bogged down and distract you from hitting your own personal and professional goals. So strap in Adventure Team and let's take a ride through the safari to get you to the mountaintop. I've got that look in my face. We're back, guys. Oh my god, it's another great week. I hope you guys are killing it out there, playing business, playing really hard at business, and not just playing at business, play in the business, play on the business, play around the business, play with the business. Or you're obsessed with the word play right now. I am where are we going with this? Because we played yesterday, Alan. Oh, we did. Alan and I had a former podcast guest, but also a good friend of Alan, who said, Guys, I want to take you on this country club uh and play at this swanky golf course that Alan knows very well. And we snuck out and started at 2 30 in the afternoon uh in the fall and actually got all 18 in. Now, could we see anything on 18? No. Could we see anything on 17? No, could we see much on 16? Only where the ball went short. That was it. But we got him in, everybody, and it was an awesome time. Uh, great listener. Uh, been on the podcast before, and uh, we've had both of those guys on the podcast. And he was celebrating a big deal. He was celebrating a big deal, which that's why I say we were playing here. I want to say we should take some credit for that, Alan. I mean, when somebody closes and exits their biz and gets a great deal, I think I I gotta say it's the small business safari bringing on the exit coaches we've had, talking all those things, helping him get his business together. I I take credit.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and we did try to take credit because uh we pushed the bet up to 16 million on the last uh second to the last hole.
SPEAKER_01:Last hole where we end up we played the last hole for 16 million dollars. Uh we pushed all the way to that because that's kind of the big rollers. We don't play for quarters, we don't play for 50 cents, we don't play for dollar bills, we definitely don't pay for pennies anymore because there's not anymore. Although I did just go uh use cash and I got uh pennies back. I'm like, oh, can't wait for these things to be great. Are you sad about the penny? I mean, I gotta ask an accountant. All right. So, Courtney, your your your first hardest question, your first hardest question is are you okay with the penny going away?
SPEAKER_04:I am. I I've accepted it and I've moved on. Um I actually when I was in high school and college, I worked as a bank teller. And uh and and so I do you know hold actual cash and coin near and dear, but I've I think it's okay.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my gosh. This there you go, everybody. If Courtney can let it go, you can let it go. And uh boy, you hit on something before we I guess we gotta introduce her first, then I'm gonna go back to the teller. Um so Courtney and uh I'm gonna kill your last name because it's not. Have her say it. Yeah, Courtney, introduce yourself.
SPEAKER_04:I am Courtney Durandi.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I would have gotten it wrong. Thanks for the admission. I know, but hey, she admitted, she admitted to move on, so I'm gonna move on. Courtney, uh, CPA not wired like the rest of us, uh, but not wired like a normal CPA. We're gonna get in some really good conversations about uh how she sees things in business, how she's helped people in business, how she can help you in business. But I gotta go back to the teller. I've heard somebody tell me that one of the best jobs you can possibly get, and when I say somebody, I'm talking about Ed Crutchfield, who is the CEO of First Union. And I was sitting there in Charlotte, North Carolina, and it was uh every year he does the State of the Union, and he said the best job you could ever have is to be a teller because you have to be able to count money, you have to be able to interact with people with their most important asset, which is their money. You have to reconcile and be accountable to yourself throughout the entire day, and you have to smile while you're doing it standing up. How do you feel about that?
SPEAKER_04:I think you nailed it. Yes. I mean, that was definitely my experience. And one of the things I loved about it was the customer service aspect. I mean, back in in that time, and this is you know 25 years ago, um, people came into the bank. They were regular people who came into the bank. And so you really did build kitchens and relationships with customers. There were also commercial customers that would come in every day to, you know, bring in a big deposit. And um, and so bringing in the old money bag. Yes, exactly, bringing in a a money bag. And I also learned uh I remember one of the first things that the head teller trained me on was the importance of following a consistent process. Because if I would do things the same way each time, even if I got into conversation or if somebody was upset or something, somebody distracted me, I knew the order in which I did things. And it was, you were much more less likely to make a mistake if you followed a process. And so that was something I learned early on. And standing on your feet was also a significant component of that job that I remember, you know, once I would go back to to being a teller after, you know, if I was at college and I'd go back for a summer break, it took a while to get used to standing up all day again.
SPEAKER_01:And and smiling and being thankful for doing that.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:But yeah, 25 years ago, uh, so Ed Crutchfield uh was the uh CEO of First Union, and every year he would talk about this year's crop of college graduates uh coming into the bank did not have this in their life. And he would go back and do the chronology, and it was always I was there and got to listen to him for three years in a row, 97, 98, 99. And it was so interesting. But he's the one who talked about the teller and the experience. And I I uh when as soon as you brought that up, I was like, that's one I keep forgetting to tell people because I obviously went to uh in the manufacturing world and had no customer service skills whatsoever. Um, because I interface with machines, Alan. I interface with I don't know. That explains a lot, right? And this is why I'm in the home service business now and going, God, I hate people.
SPEAKER_03:You know, I uh Courtney, you don't know. I'm in commercial real estate. Yesterday we were actually working with a bank looking for a new location, which was very interesting because he's like, Yeah, I don't need a vault. I'm like, What? And he goes, and I go what about safety depot deposit boxes? And like, nah, people don't use those anymore. Maybe, maybe in a rural area where it's an elderly clientele. And I'm like, Oh man, it everything I know from banks about movies is not true anymore. Holy cow.
SPEAKER_01:So I have a safe deposit box. Do you really? I really do.
SPEAKER_03:He told he told a cool story because there was a a woman whose husband unfortunately passed away. She had a safety deposit box, never did anything with it, and then finally, a few years later, went to the bank and said, Yeah, my husband had a safety deposit box. I don't know what's in it. They didn't have a key, they had to drill it open. He'd been stuffing so stock certificates in there. She was a multi, multi-millionaire. Oh no idea. Well, if you come, you should come into my branch, you're gonna be sorely disappointed when you open up my box and rabbit's foot in there and your first casino chip you ever buy one.
SPEAKER_01:I got my favorite uh penny. Yeah, that's right. Which is gonna be worth at least three cents. Uh yeah. So, Courtney, tell us a little bit about what you do now, and then we're gonna back up and how you get into this.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. So I started my career in public accounting as the CPA and moved into leadership. I over my career, I built teams, I built uh departments, I built an audit practice, virtual CFO and controller practice, and eventually became the CEO and managing partner and got out of client service, started really um serving our firm through leadership and business development, um, and eventually launched a management consulting practice so within the firm. So, really taking some of the things I learned from my own leadership and business ownership journey and creating a framework and a system to help those leaders through some of the things that I learned. You know, what surprised me as I grew in my career was it wasn't the technical side of the work that we did that was challenging. It was how the more successful we got, the more we grew, the heavier the leadership and ownership side of the business started to feel. You know, there's just more decisions to make, more people depending on you, more people looking for answers. And um, finance had really trained me to look for patterns. And leadership gave me a lot of lived experience. And that combination really served as a foundation for building this framework that I created to make sense of what I was experiencing. And then eventually I formalized it in a way that I could now teach it to others. So I do private consulting, one-on-one coaching, and then we also have a group leadership program uh called Scaling Leader. And I still lead my firm. I still have a whole bunch of CPAs and advisors on my team. But most of my time is split between leading the leaders of those departments in our firm and our overall vision and strategy, and then serving our clients through our scaling leader program.
SPEAKER_01:So I'm I uh I've written a book. I think I might have mentioned that before now. 5,000 times. But go ahead. 5,000 ones. But in my book, what I talk about is the name of it again. Uh from the Zood of the Wild. You can pick it up on Amazon. And if you let me know about it, I will sign one and send it to you. Uh anyway, back to it. I think, you know, your first job that you have, you are a teller. You learn process, you learn that accountability we talked about. Your first leadership position, I think, is also where you take a big step. Uh, and you, you know, for me, it was in consulting, uh, and it was at Accenture, uh, which was Anderson at the time, and I had three high-performing young people who are all a performers, but I had to learn how to manage the a performers. And I was glad I got to do it with a small team because I think I had to learn that a lot. Um, because I don't know how many people can go from leading nobody to leading 400 people or leading, you know, you you have to learn as you go. What do you think one of your biggest leadership lessons you learned in your first supervision position?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think a big one was not everyone thinks like you do, Courtney. Doesn't that suck? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:That should be the I'm I'm assuming that's the first thing you teach people when they hire you for the leadership training.
SPEAKER_04:That is a core. I mean, I have a slide that has the manager who told me that her name is Karen. I have a slide with Karen's face on it that says, not everyone thinks like you, dear Courtney.
SPEAKER_00:Karen says, nobody not everybody thinks like you, Courtney. Yeah, got my loss.
SPEAKER_04:And it, yeah, it wasn't exactly a compliment. It was, it was uh, it was her encouraging me, encouraging me to understand that I had unique gifts and strengths and abilities, and other people did too, and they were different. And um, you know, if somebody thought of something differently or it didn't come as easily to them as it did to me, it didn't mean that there was something wrong with them and they just needed to get on board. It meant I needed to recognize there's different strengths and gifts here. Uh, so it was a huge self-aware.
SPEAKER_01:It wasn't that you were you were the nice wallflower, and that's what she was saying is that, hey, Courtney, you're being a little too nice to everybody. I got a feeling, CPA. You might have been a little short with people going, what are you, a moron? Are you are you superimposing yourself on our guest? I'm just asking if she's in the same colby club.
SPEAKER_04:Have you heard of Iowa Nice or Midwest Nice? So I'm I'm from Iowa.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know this.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, uh what does that mean? So culturally, um, we are nice and kind, whether we mean it or not. Uh so there's a little bit of a lot of people.
SPEAKER_01:They couldn't even insult each other. I'm like, that's how you insult people. I'm like, come on, I'll show you how to do this. I'm from Michigan.
SPEAKER_04:So I think I think for me, the way it was showing up was in my impatience. I wanted things to move more quickly. I wanted, which again, this is a this is a difference in my wiring. Um, a lot of CPAs, um, people that are, you know, that are good with financial analysis are wired for minimizing risk, change, and uncertainty. And I'm actually wired for innovation. I like risk, change, and uncertainty. I want to, I want to initiate action, I want to try something, I want to do something. And and that could be frustrating for me if people didn't catch on as quickly or they were pushing against change, or, you know, if something's not working, I'm like, well, it doesn't have to be this way. Let's let's change it. But most of the people around.
SPEAKER_01:And you offer them a little corn cob, maybe a little, you know, we can have a little barbecue. Um corn cob. Well, she's from Iowa. So there's so much flipping of corn there, bro. When I was there, oh my God. I was like, oh my, you guys are the corn capital.
SPEAKER_03:And I mean, I could have said like casserole or a baked good, but you go straight corn cob.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I did salting. Well, that's well, Alan. We've been doing this for how long now? And you've been my friend for how long? We know that's what I do. And Courtney's gonna sit there and smile because she's Iowa. That's right. I can't believe I signed up for this shit. Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Pretty, yeah, yeah. The the corn on the cob is a little seasonal, but you know, that's fine. You can we'll go with it.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, so you can only do it certain times of the year, though.
SPEAKER_01:That's correct. That's right. I uh I I got a whole dissertation on how they grow for it.
SPEAKER_03:This does make me think of something. So we all came from big corporate, and when I got into management, I got sent to management training. I'm assuming you had the same thing, and Courtney, you had the same thing. And a lot of people listening to the show. No, not there's no management training at a big uh how many accounting firms.
SPEAKER_04:I didn't started a big firm.
SPEAKER_03:Oh.
SPEAKER_04:But you go on, go on, Alan. Finish your point, but I'll put that actually.
SPEAKER_03:No, well, I was just thinking for a lot of our listeners, you know, for those of us that left the corporate world and we were in leadership, odds are we had classic management training of some sort, which comes in handy, and you learn stuff like people aren't necessarily the same, or you know, how to deliver bad news or how to get people, you know, conflict resolution, all that stuff. But a lot of people listening maybe just started a business on their own and suddenly they have a bunch of employees and they've got to start hiring leaders, and they they have none of that training. And I mean, you know, maybe they've got instincts for it, but wow.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I I agree with Alan. I mean, uh that leadership, my my again, my first four year into it. Um, there was a lot of support and a lot of leadership uh training that I went through in the middle of it. And let's just say I wasn't top of my class. I did the same thing. I had to learn a lot. People don't think like you, but that's what makes your team better, is if you can get the best out of everybody and come up with better decisions and better results and better outcomes. And um, yeah, I get a lot of training. Coaching techniques, yeah. Accenture was and they probably still are. I mean, that's why I still have stock in that company because it I learned so much there, and it really polished a lot of my rough edges, believe that or not. Oh no, there was a lot of edges, friends. Oh, I lost Alan. It was high. I lost Alan. He just chorted. Courtney they used to be rougher? Oh, a thousand fucking percent. Oh, okay. Oh, yeah, I was horrible. Wow. Yeah, I was dude, yeah. Come on. I mean, I didn't know how to deal with people. I mean, I was an engineer, I was a I was and I mean it was like Courtney. I felt like I was an innovator and different uh and trying to move things. So as you moved on and kept working out, let's go back to Courtney, shall we?
SPEAKER_03:Because the therapist usually Courtney usually he wants to go back to him, and now I I think I've touched a nerve here. I'm already getting technically want to know about another one.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, we're gonna have to go talk through a whole other set of series of issues. No. So uh Courtney, as you as you you learned that and then you implemented that, how big of a team did you end up getting to? Because I think that's the evolution you talked about scaling. How did you learn that now they were your direct reports, now you're influencing your reports of your reports of your reports? Uh how how did you learn that uh that technique?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so I I like I was sharing there, I did not come from a large company. I worked in a a small local and Somewhat regional accounting firm. But at the height of our firm size, when I became the CEO, we had about a hundred employees. I had seven other shareholders, other equity partners. The team that I first built, the audit practice, ended up being about 15 people. And so really whether you're leading a large team or a small team, what I learned through that was there are people who have different strengths, gifts, abilities. The more they understand them and leverage them, the more effective they are. And the more effective they are, the more they get done. And usually the more fulfilled they are. And people who are fulfilled because they're playing to their strengths are more engaged. They stay longer.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, less they leave. Yep. Right.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. So there's, I mean, it sounds very altruistic. And I and and I am a person of faith, and I and I do think that that that is true. But even if you don't buy that side of it, the business case is when people play to their strengths, they're more effective.
SPEAKER_01:And it's the word play, Ellen. We started with play, we continue.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, there you go. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You're playing at work, you're not working.
SPEAKER_04:So I think, you know, that's that's a part of it is understanding that and and recognizing that that I don't need to replicate myself across my team. I need people to do the various roles that are needed here. And that that's going to require people that that think and take action differently than I do. And I have to value those differences and help them leverage them.
SPEAKER_01:All right, let's get into some nitty-gritty. So small, small group, you start growing a little bit. Um, how what are some techniques you can learn early on? So again, we can talk about the leveraging their strengths, but some techniques or things that we can put in place in our own businesses to help us.
SPEAKER_04:Well, one of the things that helped me grow that first division that I built, the audit practice, was getting really clear about our vision, who we wanted to become. And most audit practices at that time were serving clients all across, you know, geographic areas. There was a lot of travel involved with being an auditor. Most auditors would travel for the whole week. They'd be home on the weekend. And it was long hours. It was compressed into um, you know, January, February, March, because a lot of businesses have audit filing deadlines of 90 or 120 days after year end. And I didn't want to build a practice with travel and with compressed work. And so I was clear on that and I looked for specialized areas of work that we could develop expertise in that spread the work more evenly throughout the year. And I constrained us to same-day travel at that time within Central Iowa. And we built our practice because that that was just that was what we wanted. But we were clear enough on it that it became a filter for making decisions. Do we take this client or not? Do they do they align with who we said we want to become or do they distract us and push us away?
SPEAKER_01:So who's the one who made that decision on who to let the clients in? Because I've heard this before. One of the things you can do as a leader in the company is you keep the jerks out. You let again, I said jerks because she says she was a woman of faith. So I don't want to upset her anymore. Um that's not the word I would have used. Uh, but uh you let you decide who comes into your company. Uh, how did you filter that? Was that you who made the calls on the on the clients and the direction?
SPEAKER_04:It was in that situation because I was the the audit partner building that practice. And so I was gonna be the one signing the reports. I was responsible for growing the area, which meant I got to grow it in a way that that aligned with what I wanted, but but I also had the responsibility of it. Um and it can be tempting when you, even if you're clear about what you want, if you're trying to hit a certain revenue target or you're trying to hit a growth goal, or you've got people that you've hired and you need to utilize them, it can be tempting to push those boundaries and kind of take, ah, you know, we'll just make an exception here and we'll take this client, even though they don't fit. And yeah, we'll go ahead and travel and yep, we'll add another job into this window of time. And we certainly did that. We've done that over and over again across the different departments that we've built. And then we recognize it and we think, why do we do this? We always regret it when we do this. And so the clearer your filter and the stronger your boundaries are of holding it, the the better you're able to build what you actually wanted. But I I find a lot of people don't take that step to get clear about what they want. So they don't have a filter. And that filter can help you attract and and filter out, you know, attract the right clients, filter out the wrong ones. Same for your team. I was able to recruit and retain people way easier than my counterparts in the profession, because most other audit firms were trying to attract people that were okay being gone all week and um, you know, having turning their life upside down for the first quarter of the year. And I was clear that's not what I wanted. I didn't want it for me. I didn't want it for my team. And um, and so those that clarity, whatever it is for, you know, for the business, that was just an example of our situation at the time. It can filter your opportunities and it can attract the right clients and the right people.
SPEAKER_03:Did you did you find that it made your sales process easier? I mean, it takes a little bit of pressure off and almost you you become that uh, I don't know. I mean, I could see some clients wanting to like, no, please take me, please take me. And you're like, I'm not so sure that you fit in what we're looking for, and you can kind of play hard to get.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, exactly. Right. It feels like a little bit of reverse psychology. Yeah, for sure. I think, um, I think the biggest challenge for me was being willing to say no and turn somebody down, especially if you felt any amount of pressure around hitting a revenue target. But again, every time that we made an exception, we regretted it. And so then we just learned to be more intentional to hold those boundaries. And it absolutely was helpful in filtering out the clients that didn't fit and, you know, and saying, like, oh, I don't know if you're the right fit, or, you know, we've got a window of time here where we're really full. We've got another window of time over here where we're available. If you're willing to let us put your engagement here, you know, in May instead of March, then we can take you. And and so it just allowed us to build something that that I wanted to be part of. And then it was really easy for me to attract and retain people to be part of.
SPEAKER_01:Did you develop like a checklist or an interview question or an intake form? Uh what are those questions you would ask?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Um, I mean, we basically we would try to understand what in this particular case, this was an audit practice. And so most people don't want an audit. They have to have an audit. And so we try to understand who's requiring this. Is it really required? Because sometimes people would be confused about the requirements. And so we're really trying to assess what is the requirement here, what's the timeline that it's under, is there any flexibility around that? Um, and then we it was mostly understanding the risks of the engagement and whether or not it was going to be something that was um, you know, a drain on our team or a huge mess that we'd have to clean up. You know, how how likely was it that we could hold the scope of what we were estimating? And um, and so I mean, those are things that I think the transferability to anybody that's, you know, delivering professional services or deploying people to serve clients, if you're especially on a project base. Um, you know, we're really trying to understand scope and fit. And can we do what we say we're gonna do when we say we're gonna do it and be profitable in doing it and not mess up all of our rhythms.
SPEAKER_01:Forgot that part, that profitable part. I forgot that part. Yeah. That's funny. So uh I was uh I was thinking the way we the way we could really flip Courtney on edge is bring her to Atlanta and have her say, um, hey, you said one day travel. Um, so we're gonna put you in Atlanta and we're gonna tell you that you're gonna go from Peachtree Corners to Peachtree City. Um, you tell me how you're gonna get there. And she's like, Well, you you go north and then you go west and then you go east, and then you hit this light and you go, because in Iowa it's all grid. And here, girlfriend, we have no grids, we have no pattern, we have no idea where anybody's going. Atlanta is the only out the only city you can be in Atlanta and still be an hour away from Atlanta. And it just happened to one of my buddies yesterday. So as you navigated that mess uh that is Atlanta, and you try to put it and make it more like the Iowa grid system in the Midwest, where they all had the ability to make the grids happen. Um, as you do that, how do you find that a lot of resistance uh to get people to follow your process when you're in taking them or bringing them in?
SPEAKER_04:No, what I found was people love it when you're clear and you guide them. And most clients they don't want to have an audit. They don't want to have somebody asking them for information and you know, giving them requesting documents and going through this whole process for weeks at a time on top of all their other work. And so the more, you know, the more effort we put into project management, you know, leading our projects effectively and leading our people on the engagement teams effectively, the more our clients valued our approach. We were great to work with and they knew what to expect. And we were as, you know, least disruptive as we could be. What we did was we looked at the problems that these clients experience with other auditors. It's disruptive. Maybe they're disrespectful, they're condescending, they're trying to act like um, you know, the police, like, oh, I got you, I found something you did wrong. And it's it can be very adversarial. And so we just looked at all these things of, you know, why people don't like audits and what's the negative aspect of it. They always go over scope, you know, they said they'll be there for a week and then it pushes into two and three weeks and all these things. And we just built our processes and systems to try to counteract those. And it really did two things. One, it made it a better experience for the client, and it made it, again, more profitable for us because if we can stay on scope, then we're on budget, we're on time, then we're not bleeding into the next week when we should be moving on to something else. And we can retain these clients because proposing on the next engagement, you know, and trying to get a renewal, that all takes time and energy. And so it was just being very intentional in how we created the that's exactly how I run my remodeling business, is why Ellen's laughing.
SPEAKER_01:Uh, my next business is gonna be called just give me three more days consulting, uh, contracting business. Forget the trusted toolbox. I'm going, just give me three more days and I'll have it all done. Um, so you're saying staying on time. It's got to be so hard to pull all that off, uh, by the way. Um, in your business, once you get a client, is that a repeat business client? If you do you continue with them yearly?
SPEAKER_04:Yes. Yes. And it's not always a given, but our attention is sky high. Um, we we do our audit practice specifically, and we we we have other areas of our business, but just talking, continuing on the audit path here. We do a lot of nonprofit engagements. You know, they have federal and state funding, and so they have to have an audit to report to the granting agencies. Most nonprofit governance documents would require them to put it out for a competitive proposal every three years. So most of our clients are following that guideline and going out for proposal every three years. And uh, and we, it's not uncommon for us to have, you know, to to win over and over across those cycles because our team is so good to work with and people know what to expect.
SPEAKER_01:So uh let's uh pivot to where you are today. So we we kept talking about the audit. Tell us what you're doing today and you know why you came on the podcast to talk about uh what you're doing.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so today most of my time is split between leading our firm. So I lead our leaders, and I'm responsible for vision and and strategy of the firm. And then the other balance of my time is really spent developing and delivering content through our management consulting practice. So, really, all the things that I learned in building the audit practice, the virtual CFO practice, becoming the CEO, um, all the complexities that I faced and the things that I navigated as a leader and a business owner, I eventually started to see a ton of crossover between that and what our clients were experiencing. And so I ended up building a framework that kind of reverse-engineered the principles and tools that I had applied through my journey so that I could help other clients to do the same. And they don't have to go, you know, read all the books I read and listen to the podcast episodes I did and engage the same coaches that I did. I've basically said that.
SPEAKER_01:Other than this one you mean. I mean this one you have to go listen to this. Right. This one's gonna be required listening for all people who anybody wants to work with Courtney or or learn from her, you gotta listen to this one because this one's Mac Daddy. But continue.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, but I took essentially, you know, this you know, 10, 15 years of experience in what I learned through podcasts and books and coaching, and what I experienced in leading and growing those different segments of our business, and just you know, formalized it into a framework that I can now use to guide other leaders on their journey through business ownership as well.
SPEAKER_01:And what are the typical companies that you're engaging with on the management consulting side or the now? You mean so?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so we we work with established, successful small businesses. So generally they're three to twenty million in revenue if they're a service-based versus product-based business. Um, they're usually founder led or they're a second or third generation owner. Maybe family business may just be like a professional services firm like mine, where it passes, you know, to a next generation of owners that aren't even related. Um the commonality is that they're successful in that success and that growth has created additional complexity.
SPEAKER_01:Give me an example of a complexity you've come in and seen. Because I when you say complexity, I feel like uh that's the year I got my uh kicked in. I I filtered myself out. I'm really impressed.
SPEAKER_03:I know. Courtney obviously he has holds you in high regard. I know. He normally does not restrain himself one bit.
SPEAKER_01:But as I've grown, I feel like, you know, I hit that, I hit that trough. You know, you you're growing, growing, growing, and then sometimes you got to go down to go up. And I hate hearing that line, and I've had to live that so many different times. Tell me some of the struggles some people are going through, or take us through one example.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, it this shows up where the the leader feels like they're the default problem solver. Like everything flows up to them. Or they have promoted other leaders underneath them, but they didn't fully prepare them. And so now they're paying them more money and they're still filling the gaps because they're not really equipped to lead. Um, or it could, it looks like um everybody's busy, everybody's, you know, active doing things, but it doesn't seem to align with where we're actually trying to go. Um, maybe we have systems that people are following that haven't evolved to st to really, you know, stay relevant to the way that we operate now. People are like thinking about tasks and not outcomes or results. Um, you know, it's it's not like people maybe they're they're still profitable, they're still successful, they're still growing, but maybe the margins are getting squeezed a little bit or the cash flow is getting more um unpredictable. But a lot of it is just the leaders, business owners feeling like, man, why does this feel so heavy? Like I'm the only one who cares about this bigger picture who uh you know can actually innovate and solve a problem, or why do I always have to step in and fix things? It's it's that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_03:Because they've set that pattern though, right? So are you stepping in and teaching them how to develop leaders at that point and let go? I mean, yeah, I'm sure letting go would be a big thing for you, Chris. All right, uh Alan, please, let's go back to Courtney. Um let's just use an imaginary person named Chris.
SPEAKER_01:Who happens to own a handyman business in Atlanta and who wants to make sure that everything is going just right.
SPEAKER_03:Because it sounds like if they're successful, it doesn't necessarily mean they're great leaders. I mean, it just could be that they're they're successful, but odds are they're probably decent leaders. But then if you have to scale and put people in positions of power, then if you're not teaching them them how to lead, that's where the disconnect is. Right.
SPEAKER_04:And some of those, some of those founders don't even at first see themselves as a leader. They see themselves as a founder, they see themselves as a business owner, maybe they see themselves as an expert or a technician. They're really good at serving the clients or delivering the service or, you know, that have the deep expertise. Or maybe they're a physician or a chiropractor or or they're they're in, like, you know, they're a roofing contractor and they they know how to scope the project, do the work, but they never really recognize that to scale to the next level, they have to be a leader and they have to have other people leading as well. It's it's not always about leadership. It might be about a lack of visibility into the finances. They like they used to keep all the numbers in their head because they knew everything that was going on. And as things get bigger and and they get more removed from the activity, they think, well, that can't be right. We can't be spending that on that. And it's like, well, actually, we are. You just don't have visibility on it anymore. It could be about the people. But basically, what we do is we help people to really diagnose what's causing the complexity so that once they know the cause, we can guide them and help them to actually solve those problems. And once that path is clear, then they know what to do to move past it.
SPEAKER_01:Where do you find that they uh what's the typical size? Do they have two, three direct reports? Do they have four or five people? What what's that size where you find that these guys can't let go?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, I I see it a great so in our scaling leader program, we have this this range of Clients anywhere from three to 250 million in revenue. Um, the the higher revenue, those are product-based businesses. So that doesn't always mean that they have, you know, tons and tons of people. But I mean, I've seen it with you know two or three other leaders. I still see it when they've got six or seven other leaders. Being willing to, uh, as you said, kind of give up control. I think it's a challenge for most of us as business owners, not always for the same reasons. But if we think about when we've especially if we've founded the business, or if we came in as a second generation leader and we had a new vision for the business. So we're like like in my situation, I'm creating something different than what we had. What we're creating, it's rooted in our vision, it's rooted in our experience and our expertise, it's rooted in our core values. And when we start to get other people involved, we risk that they won't perpetuate it in those same ways. They can change our other leaders, other people, they can change our culture, they can change the way we serve our clients, they can start to change things and what we built and created starts to become something we didn't ever intend. I think that's that's a one of the reasons why people hold on to control. Sometimes it's fear, nobody can do it as good as I can. Sometimes it's personality-driven, perfectionists uh who think they're the only ones that can do it. There's lots of reasons.
SPEAKER_03:It's kind of expensive to let other people learn how to do things right.
SPEAKER_01:It has cost me a lot of money. I can promise you that. Uh it's cost me a lot of money to watch somebody else do it 80% of me. And I you've heard that line out there in the consulting world, if they can do it 80% as well as you, Dan Martell's buy back your time, then let them do it. I'm like, yeah, but sometimes it costs you. And you got to figure out and learn from it and figure out how to dial it in quick. Because I feel like uh for me at least, I've been able to do some let go because I've got two general managers in place now. Um, but you you do, you learn some mistakes, and because you weren't the one causing the mistake and feeling it, yeah, it it's like a double compounded effect. You know, you're like, damn, but if I was there, I wouldn't have done that. When the truth of the matter was, I probably would have. But it's hard. Yeah, I think it's hard to uh do that reflection and and become a better leader and teach and coach without being irrational and emotional, which I was using in our training this morning. That we are irrational, emotional human beings. That's who we are. We're not logical. We use logic to uh sat satisfy our rational emotional uh well or mindset. You think your people were going, uh we? Yeah, hey. Listen, buddy. All right, Courtney, tell us a little bit more about how everybody can find you because we've got to come up and get our final four questions, get you going. How can everybody find you out there? I saw you on LinkedIn, but five how can we find you?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn at Courtney Durandi. Um, our main webpage is forgeahead.com. Um, if if you've got listeners who are wondering, you know, what is actually creating the complexity in my business, we have a free assessment. It's assessments.forgeahead.com. And that you answer some questions, self-assess, and we'll help point you to where the gaps are and what you need to do next um in your business. So assessments.forgeahead.com.
SPEAKER_01:Assessments at forgeahead.com.
SPEAKER_04:Assessments.forgeahead.com.
SPEAKER_01:All right, got it now. Not at dot assessments.forgeahead.com. Great. You guys can always find Courtney Durande. Did I say it right?
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
unknown:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. Huh? That's impressive. Uh good for that one. Good luck. Well, this has been fun, man. Uh, but we got to talk more. I I'd love to talk more about corn, Iowa, and those damn uh windmills that they have there that are doing the shit-by-generators. Holy crap. Uh, because I flew in, I went to the Iowa State, Iowa, Iowa State game. I've been to both of them, one in Kinneck and one down in Iowa State's home field. And I just I love those people. They are great people. You want to work with great people, you call Courtney, you get involved, you find out great people can help you get ahead. All right, let's keep going. Courtney, we've got to ask you our final four questions. What is a book you would uh recommend to our audience, The Adventure Team?
SPEAKER_04:You know, one of the books that has made a huge impact on me is Building a Story Brand by Donald Miller. You familiar with that one?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. Very familiar. We've had Lisa McGuire, one of the story brand disciples for Don Donald Miller, who has been on stage with him, uh, right here in our hometown of Atlanta. We just saw her the other day. Uh, beautiful woman, great lady. Uh yes, Story Brand's a great story. Good love that book. Yep.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, I love it. I I'm in a mastermind, uh in Don's mastermind, and I've learned a lot over the years through just how you can clarify your message to better serve as a guide and and find, you know, people who need the need help solving the problems that you solve. So I think that's a a wonderful book for business owners.
SPEAKER_01:All right. What's the favorite feature of your own home?
SPEAKER_04:Um, I would say my back patio. Um, we have a pool out there and um comfy chairs, and it's just a nice place to sit in the morning or in the evening. That's probably my favorite.
SPEAKER_01:Do you have a water feature in the pool?
SPEAKER_04:No.
SPEAKER_01:Oh.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, there's water in there, but there's no fountain or anything.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you can have something spitting out there. You can, but you could put like a spitting frog or something. I don't know. I just I was just asking because a lot of people like the sound of water. That's why I was going out with them. I'm not, I wasn't trying to fool shame. I was just asking Italians or something. It is, yeah. The bigger the gaudier. Yeah, that's well, that don't talk to me about my HOA right now. What is wrong with a little bit of love to the the the fountains in in Italy? I don't I don't understand. I think I'm Italian, so I've got I did not uh but I did put a pretty big uh thing in our front yard and uh we toned it back down, so now it's just got trees.
SPEAKER_04:So anyway, do people throw pennies in it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, correct. Exactly. How else am I gonna make money? One penny at a time. That's exactly I think that's the way I started my business. But all right, let's keep going. So uh we've talked a little bit about customer service, and even in yours, you talked a lot about how your customers have got to feel the love, even in an audit, which is let's face it, everybody feels like that's a colonoscopy. I mean, that's just not good, right? An audit's never good, but you can make it good, make it fun, customer service. Alan and I are customer service freaks, absolutely. So, what's a customer service pet peeve of yours when you're out and you're the customer?
SPEAKER_04:I think when people don't recognize the value of the experience, that the way we experience their store or their team, the way you make people feel through just the environment that you create. I think some brands, some businesses diminish that. And that is a huge pet peeve of mine. One of my value personal values is beauty and aesthetics. And there are just some people that don't recognize that that's important and that can influence how people experience uh you know, your environment or the people serving you.
SPEAKER_01:That's a good point. Like if you went to a whole in a mall Vietnamese place and the lady was because we'll shortly say, What you want? You know, as opposed to having some flowers on the table would be a little nicer. Alan. Thank you for that reference, Chris. That's a that's a topical reference early. Inside joke, everybody. That's why you listen to Small Business Safari. Don't forget to tell your friends, tell your family, tell your kids. Everybody go out there, follow us. Check it out, man. This stuff is hot. We're having a lot of fun. Check it out, Courtney. Now we're gonna talk to Courtney about something that we really love to hear about. Give us a DIY nightmare story. I'm guessing she's never made a mistake.
SPEAKER_04:Uh well, I am a perfectionist and an and an improver by personality, but my husband is incredibly handy. And so he's really the one who has done any kind of DIY or home improvement project. I really I don't know that I've been.
SPEAKER_01:Let's just do it, man.
SPEAKER_04:He's so good. He he's a self-employed contractor, he's very particular. Um, trying to think, I bet there was something like early on in our marriage when we when we were just learning. Um, but I can't even think of anything because he's just he's so handy and I've been spoiled that if I have an idea for something to do, I don't have to do it because even my perfectionist father-in-law cut my gas line going to the pool, and it was him, not me.
SPEAKER_01:And that was like it, and it was so good because we did it in like 94-degree heat. They're all you know, my my dad was in town, her dad was in town, and we're out back doing everything, and they're from Michigan, and so we're in this heat, and we're just digging, digging, digging a trench to uh for a gas grill that I want to put out back. And uh he hit the gas line. And we we sat down at dinner that night at the end, he goes, You know what? My only regret is that it wasn't you. So many Courtney, I can tell you.
SPEAKER_04:There was so when I was pregnant with our first child, we were remodeling our house and he got a little behind. He still did it beautifully, but he got behind. And so I was, you know, two days before my due date, nine months pregnant, walking three months past nesting. Walking this like two by ten plank from you know the master bedroom to the stairway because the floor was being refinished underneath of it. Um, I got clear, you know, up there and um and had to and like I'd take out food and I couldn't get to the kitchen to get a fork. And I was just like, ah, you know, I was pregnant, he wasn't home. And I do remember that being a bit of a nightmare because now we're talking.
SPEAKER_01:See, now we got things we can talk about when you go home and talk to your husband tonight. Remember this. Let me tell you how pregnant I was. Do you did you carry that kid? I did. You didn't. Listen, buddy, I couldn't get my food and you had that two by ten in the way. I'll allow it. Thank you. That was a good one. I actually that now we got to something. Now we're living more by life. Courtney Duran, this has been great. Thank you so much. Durande. Uh Durande. I love that phrase. Been great having you on. Thanks so much for coming on the Small Business Safari. Guys, if you didn't learn something today, man, you weren't paying attention. Drive that truck. Just don't drive it into somebody. And if you see a cop behind you, do not punch it. Do not try to take off. They are gonna catch you. You can see the cop shows. It's not good. Body cam footage is getting way out of control, by the way. Alan, I wasn't on it. Good news. He didn't have it on.
SPEAKER_03:You have eight student driver stickers on your bumper now.
SPEAKER_01:That's impossible. You can't have eight student driver bumps. If you do, you're not listening to this podcast. Because we go out there, we make it happen. Go take advantage. Let's make it a great week. You gotta get out of here. Cheers, everybody. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Small Business Safari. Remember, your positive attitude will help you achieve that higher altitude you're looking for in the wild world of small business ownership. And until next time, make it a great day.
%20png.png)
