{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.138,"endTime":0.468,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":0.468,"endTime":4.128,"body":"In America, we just speak clear"},{"startTime":0.468,"endTime":4.128,"body":"text over radio like adults."},{"startTime":10.032,"endTime":10.482,"body":"Hello."},{"startTime":10.482,"endTime":12.252,"body":"Welcome to Security"},{"startTime":10.482,"endTime":12.252,"body":"Cryptography, whatever."},{"startTime":12.252,"endTime":12.702,"body":"I'm Deirdre."},{"startTime":13.447,"endTime":13.867,"body":"I'm David."},{"startTime":14.932,"endTime":15.982,"body":"I am awake."},{"startTime":16.432,"endTime":17.872,"body":"I'm awake before noon."},{"startTime":18.172,"endTime":19.132,"body":"Yay."},{"startTime":19.342,"endTime":20.272,"body":"Uh,"},{"startTime":20.307,"endTime":20.587,"body":"Thomas."},{"startTime":21.587,"endTime":24.047,"body":"We've been talking way too much"},{"startTime":21.587,"endTime":24.047,"body":"before we hit the record button."},{"startTime":24.047,"endTime":26.807,"body":"And how many, how many computer"},{"startTime":24.047,"endTime":26.807,"body":"experts does it take to,"},{"startTime":26.867,"endTime":27.857,"body":"to find the record button?"},{"startTime":27.857,"endTime":28.637,"body":"Well, we found it."},{"startTime":28.637,"endTime":29.537,"body":"Yay."},{"startTime":30.537,"endTime":34.557,"body":"Once again, we would like to start out"},{"startTime":30.537,"endTime":34.557,"body":"with reminding everybody that we are"},{"startTime":34.557,"endTime":38.817,"body":"throwing a party slash mixer in Las"},{"startTime":34.557,"endTime":38.817,"body":"Vegas during Black Hat again this year."},{"startTime":38.847,"endTime":39.692,"body":"Um, someone called."},{"startTime":40.317,"endTime":42.387,"body":"SCW Pod con last year."},{"startTime":42.567,"endTime":44.067,"body":"Um, the name has stuck."},{"startTime":44.356,"endTime":47.296,"body":"and we were told the vibes were"},{"startTime":44.356,"endTime":47.296,"body":"immaculate last year, and so"},{"startTime":47.296,"endTime":48.676,"body":"we're aiming for the same thing."},{"startTime":48.766,"endTime":53.788,"body":"Um, this year, uh, the event is sponsored"},{"startTime":48.766,"endTime":53.788,"body":"by Teleport the infrastructure identity"},{"startTime":53.788,"endTime":55.948,"body":"company that gives you SSO for SH."},{"startTime":56.338,"endTime":56.908,"body":"Um, and"},{"startTime":57.033,"endTime":57.153,"body":"I."},{"startTime":57.178,"endTime":62.098,"body":"you again to Rob Picard, um, from"},{"startTime":57.178,"endTime":62.098,"body":"Teleport for setting this up."},{"startTime":62.188,"endTime":66.238,"body":"Rob used to run Observer, which"},{"startTime":62.188,"endTime":66.238,"body":"was our sponsor last year, but."},{"startTime":66.658,"endTime":70.978,"body":"Pivoted from consulting, ending that"},{"startTime":66.658,"endTime":70.978,"body":"consulting life to just what if they"},{"startTime":70.978,"endTime":72.958,"body":"became the security team for teleport?"},{"startTime":73.343,"endTime":74.618,"body":"yeah, thank you to teleport."},{"startTime":75.027,"endTime":76.617,"body":"I, uh, I love teleport."},{"startTime":76.947,"endTime":78.807,"body":"I think Teleport is, uh, awesome."},{"startTime":79.179,"endTime":84.154,"body":"Uh, teleport is like the backbone of all"},{"startTime":79.179,"endTime":84.154,"body":"of the SOC two stuff that we do at Fly."},{"startTime":85.074,"endTime":88.314,"body":"Um, so teleport is like, um,"},{"startTime":85.074,"endTime":88.314,"body":"teleport is like an SSH server."},{"startTime":88.319,"endTime":90.864,"body":"It's a, it's a certificate"},{"startTime":88.319,"endTime":90.864,"body":"based SSH system, right?"},{"startTime":90.864,"endTime":93.804,"body":"So it's like a, it's like"},{"startTime":90.864,"endTime":93.804,"body":"cattle fleet, SSHI mean, you"},{"startTime":93.804,"endTime":95.064,"body":"can use it for a single server."},{"startTime":95.064,"endTime":97.704,"body":"It's really easy to set up and"},{"startTime":95.064,"endTime":97.704,"body":"all that, but it really shines as"},{"startTime":97.704,"endTime":99.204,"body":"a cattle fleet, SSH kind of deal."},{"startTime":99.804,"endTime":103.884,"body":"Um, so we're getting like,"},{"startTime":99.804,"endTime":103.884,"body":"um, SSO integrated logins for"},{"startTime":103.884,"endTime":105.264,"body":"all of our internal SSH stuff."},{"startTime":105.264,"endTime":108.654,"body":"This is all behind our kind of"},{"startTime":105.264,"endTime":108.654,"body":"like tail scale VPN situation."},{"startTime":108.654,"endTime":111.774,"body":"So none of this is exposed to the"},{"startTime":108.654,"endTime":111.774,"body":"internet, but it is our internal control"},{"startTime":111.774,"endTime":115.554,"body":"system for who can, you know, get access"},{"startTime":111.774,"endTime":115.554,"body":"to what, but like the really cool thing"},{"startTime":115.554,"endTime":120.144,"body":"about it's, it keeps transcripts of"},{"startTime":115.554,"endTime":120.144,"body":"all the SH sessions, which is a pretty"},{"startTime":120.144,"endTime":122.754,"body":"handy, like if you're just trying to"},{"startTime":120.144,"endTime":122.754,"body":"figure out how another engineer fixed a"},{"startTime":122.754,"endTime":126.984,"body":"problem with like LVM two or something"},{"startTime":122.754,"endTime":126.984,"body":"like a week ago, but B like once you"},{"startTime":126.984,"endTime":130.404,"body":"have transcripts for all your estate"},{"startTime":126.984,"endTime":130.404,"body":"sessions, then any of the business"},{"startTime":130.404,"endTime":135.354,"body":"processes that you have in your org,"},{"startTime":130.404,"endTime":135.354,"body":"um, that run through terminal commands."},{"startTime":135.354,"endTime":138.564,"body":"Like if you, uh, you know, pop an"},{"startTime":135.354,"endTime":138.564,"body":"IRB for a Rails app or something"},{"startTime":138.564,"endTime":141.054,"body":"like that, and that's how you add or"},{"startTime":138.564,"endTime":141.054,"body":"remove groups or things like that,"},{"startTime":141.264,"endTime":142.734,"body":"you now have an audit trail for it."},{"startTime":143.139,"endTime":146.139,"body":"Um, which is all SOC two auditors"},{"startTime":143.139,"endTime":146.139,"body":"care about is, is there like"},{"startTime":146.229,"endTime":148.119,"body":"documentation for whatever it is you do?"},{"startTime":148.359,"endTime":152.019,"body":"So we, we got to knock out so much shit"},{"startTime":148.359,"endTime":152.019,"body":"just because we had teleport set up."},{"startTime":152.229,"endTime":156.069,"body":"I would say like Teleport is probably"},{"startTime":152.229,"endTime":156.069,"body":"the second most valuable tool, um,"},{"startTime":156.339,"endTime":158.049,"body":"just in a SOC two and compliance sense."},{"startTime":158.049,"endTime":162.069,"body":"The second most valuable tool after"},{"startTime":158.049,"endTime":162.069,"body":"SSO, it would, it would be the second"},{"startTime":162.069,"endTime":165.669,"body":"thing I would set up after SSO if I"},{"startTime":162.069,"endTime":165.669,"body":"took a security role at a big company."},{"startTime":166.329,"endTime":167.829,"body":"So Teleport awesome."},{"startTime":167.829,"endTime":168.249,"body":"We love it."},{"startTime":168.309,"endTime":169.869,"body":"We love Rob too, but we love Teleport more"},{"startTime":170.259,"endTime":170.549,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":170.549,"endTime":174.089,"body":"And one cool thing about SSH"},{"startTime":170.549,"endTime":174.089,"body":"certificates is they are not X 5 0 9."},{"startTime":175.089,"endTime":175.669,"body":"uh, yeah,"},{"startTime":176.469,"endTime":177.009,"body":"I think."},{"startTime":177.159,"endTime":179.859,"body":"I think, I think only we care about that."},{"startTime":179.859,"endTime":180.009,"body":"Like,"},{"startTime":180.049,"endTime":180.829,"body":"No, no,"},{"startTime":180.999,"endTime":184.029,"body":"of really you, you've gotten pushback"},{"startTime":180.999,"endTime":184.029,"body":"from people like as state certificates,"},{"startTime":184.029,"endTime":185.199,"body":"this certificate nonsense again."},{"startTime":186.199,"endTime":189.254,"body":"No, I just get generic pushback"},{"startTime":186.199,"endTime":189.254,"body":"against the concept of X 5 0 9."},{"startTime":189.814,"endTime":190.174,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":190.174,"endTime":190.414,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":190.414,"endTime":191.044,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":191.164,"endTime":194.554,"body":"I think, think when you hear certificates,"},{"startTime":191.164,"endTime":194.554,"body":"you, you start cringing internally."},{"startTime":194.554,"endTime":197.374,"body":"If you are aware of the existence"},{"startTime":194.554,"endTime":197.374,"body":"of XX 5 0 9, and then you hear,"},{"startTime":197.374,"endTime":198.424,"body":"no, no, no, no, no, it's not."},{"startTime":198.424,"endTime":201.454,"body":"It's a completely different thing"},{"startTime":198.424,"endTime":201.454,"body":"and you're like, I love it already."},{"startTime":201.739,"endTime":202.159,"body":"See"},{"startTime":202.234,"endTime":207.964,"body":"I, I'm not aware of anyone that like"},{"startTime":202.234,"endTime":207.964,"body":"was going to deploy that like would not"},{"startTime":207.964,"endTime":213.214,"body":"have deployed SSH certificates until"},{"startTime":207.964,"endTime":213.214,"body":"they learned that it was not X 5 0 9."},{"startTime":213.214,"endTime":215.884,"body":"I don't know that that's a"},{"startTime":213.214,"endTime":215.884,"body":"person that exists, but I."},{"startTime":215.899,"endTime":219.289,"body":"I, I share this sentiment completely"},{"startTime":215.899,"endTime":219.289,"body":"and I feel the same way about it."},{"startTime":219.289,"endTime":222.559,"body":"And I've done an implementation of SSH"},{"startTime":219.289,"endTime":222.559,"body":"certificates and been delighted by it."},{"startTime":222.829,"endTime":223.339,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":223.369,"endTime":224.989,"body":"But I think it's only a voice."},{"startTime":225.139,"endTime":227.959,"body":"So whenever I write about SSH"},{"startTime":225.139,"endTime":227.959,"body":"certificates, I always write a little,"},{"startTime":228.019,"endTime":230.089,"body":"you know, caveat, these aren't X 5 0 9."},{"startTime":230.419,"endTime":230.779,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":230.899,"endTime":233.084,"body":"But I think, I think only"},{"startTime":230.899,"endTime":233.084,"body":"the three of US care."},{"startTime":233.429,"endTime":237.334,"body":"No, I like, I literally, it's"},{"startTime":233.429,"endTime":237.334,"body":"just you tell someone, no,"},{"startTime":237.334,"endTime":238.834,"body":"no, no, it's not X 5 0 9."},{"startTime":238.834,"endTime":243.634,"body":"And they like this, this sort of"},{"startTime":238.834,"endTime":243.634,"body":"like cloud lifts from your soul."},{"startTime":243.664,"endTime":247.594,"body":"It's not, it doesn't have to have"},{"startTime":243.664,"endTime":247.594,"body":"like a, like an actual, uh, case"},{"startTime":247.594,"endTime":248.764,"body":"that has happened in real life."},{"startTime":248.764,"endTime":252.664,"body":"It's just the, the lightness of being"},{"startTime":248.764,"endTime":252.664,"body":"in these kinds of certificates as"},{"startTime":252.664,"endTime":254.674,"body":"opposed to the most dominant kind"},{"startTime":255.619,"endTime":259.039,"body":"Tre, weren't you just saying that"},{"startTime":255.619,"endTime":259.039,"body":"your name is like a Celtic myth about"},{"startTime":259.039,"endTime":260.509,"body":"someone who has no lightness of being,"},{"startTime":260.809,"endTime":261.484,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":261.484,"endTime":266.674,"body":"Um, my name is from like a story of"},{"startTime":261.484,"endTime":266.674,"body":"a princess who ran off with her lover"},{"startTime":266.674,"endTime":270.724,"body":"and she was trapped in a tower, married"},{"startTime":266.674,"endTime":270.724,"body":"to some old king, and then the king,"},{"startTime":271.174,"endTime":272.284,"body":"No different."},{"startTime":272.284,"endTime":277.834,"body":"Different, uh, and then the old king, uh,"},{"startTime":272.284,"endTime":277.834,"body":"chased them down and killed her lover."},{"startTime":277.834,"endTime":282.454,"body":"And then she, she collapsed"},{"startTime":277.834,"endTime":282.454,"body":"crying on top of his slain body."},{"startTime":282.754,"endTime":285.424,"body":"And the name means raging and sorrowful."},{"startTime":285.424,"endTime":286.579,"body":"The end, end of story"},{"startTime":286.879,"endTime":287.824,"body":"There's a Fairport"},{"startTime":287.839,"endTime":290.599,"body":"sorrow was because she thought SSH used X"},{"startTime":290.599,"endTime":291.439,"body":"5 0 9."},{"startTime":292.439,"endTime":294.839,"body":"There's also a Fairport"},{"startTime":292.439,"endTime":294.839,"body":"Convention song about that too."},{"startTime":295.469,"endTime":295.769,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":296.069,"endTime":299.084,"body":"Uh, so anyway, we're throwing a party."},{"startTime":299.084,"endTime":300.074,"body":"Teleport is sponsoring it."},{"startTime":300.074,"endTime":303.434,"body":"Thank you to Teleport Once again, the"},{"startTime":300.074,"endTime":303.434,"body":"party is near the In-N-Out Burger."},{"startTime":303.464,"endTime":306.854,"body":"Um, so we can all go get In-N-Out"},{"startTime":303.464,"endTime":306.854,"body":"Burger at the most impressive"},{"startTime":306.854,"endTime":308.354,"body":"In-N-Out burger in the country."},{"startTime":308.384,"endTime":310.424,"body":"That is an operation there on the strip."},{"startTime":310.889,"endTime":312.75,"body":"Extremely, extremely overrated burger."},{"startTime":313.544,"endTime":316.874,"body":"It may be an overrated burger, but"},{"startTime":313.544,"endTime":316.874,"body":"I'm just impressed by how many people"},{"startTime":316.874,"endTime":322.574,"body":"they get in and out, uh, literally in"},{"startTime":316.874,"endTime":322.574,"body":"and out of that, uh, of that physical"},{"startTime":322.574,"endTime":325.274,"body":"location when like everybody is smashed."},{"startTime":325.364,"endTime":329.924,"body":"Um, and how quickly they're able to"},{"startTime":325.364,"endTime":329.924,"body":"like, reproduce their, their, what"},{"startTime":329.924,"endTime":331.094,"body":"some people would refer to as food."},{"startTime":331.634,"endTime":331.994,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":332.054,"endTime":334.124,"body":"Near, it's near the in and out the event."},{"startTime":334.364,"endTime":338.384,"body":"When you register for the event, you'll"},{"startTime":334.364,"endTime":338.384,"body":"find out where it is, but afterwards"},{"startTime":338.444,"endTime":340.274,"body":"we tend to go to the in and out."},{"startTime":340.574,"endTime":341.774,"body":"The one time we've done this before."},{"startTime":342.774,"endTime":343.314,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":343.554,"endTime":345.354,"body":"Uh, what we got, so"},{"startTime":345.654,"endTime":347.349,"body":"Deirdre, I heard you"},{"startTime":345.654,"endTime":347.349,"body":"had some life updates."},{"startTime":347.694,"endTime":348.234,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":348.234,"endTime":350.544,"body":"I'm no longer working"},{"startTime":348.234,"endTime":350.544,"body":"for my former employer."},{"startTime":350.604,"endTime":355.944,"body":"I am now, uh, fund employed,"},{"startTime":350.604,"endTime":355.944,"body":"but I'm also, uh, taking, taking"},{"startTime":356.064,"endTime":358.464,"body":"bids for my time and energy."},{"startTime":358.564,"endTime":359.979,"body":"That you're not fun employed."},{"startTime":359.979,"endTime":360.454,"body":"You're consulting."},{"startTime":361.434,"endTime":362.994,"body":"I'm fun consulting."},{"startTime":362.994,"endTime":368.154,"body":"I'm also taking it easy on, you know, what"},{"startTime":362.994,"endTime":368.154,"body":"sort of fun consulting I may be doing."},{"startTime":368.154,"endTime":371.994,"body":"So like, if something cool"},{"startTime":368.154,"endTime":371.994,"body":"comes up, let me know."},{"startTime":372.384,"endTime":372.849,"body":"If not,"},{"startTime":373.149,"endTime":378.489,"body":"gotta come to Deirdre with good projects"},{"startTime":373.149,"endTime":378.489,"body":"and then be happy when she selects you"},{"startTime":379.489,"endTime":381.199,"body":"At least for the next couple of months."},{"startTime":381.409,"endTime":384.839,"body":"And then I might get a little bit"},{"startTime":381.409,"endTime":384.839,"body":"antsy and be like, hello, can I"},{"startTime":384.839,"endTime":386.519,"body":"interest you in some cryptography?"},{"startTime":387.128,"endTime":389.798,"body":"and you're all adults, so I'm sure"},{"startTime":387.128,"endTime":389.798,"body":"you can figure out how to contact her."},{"startTime":390.638,"endTime":391.238,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":391.538,"endTime":392.558,"body":"I'm, I'm on the internet."},{"startTime":392.558,"endTime":393.458,"body":"You can find me there."},{"startTime":393.804,"endTime":397.074,"body":"yeah, but we're going, we're"},{"startTime":393.804,"endTime":397.074,"body":"going to Vegas for, uh, other"},{"startTime":397.074,"endTime":401.694,"body":"reasons besides SCW Pod Con, um,"},{"startTime":397.074,"endTime":401.694,"body":"what's happening at Black Hat?"},{"startTime":402.054,"endTime":403.614,"body":"I do not know what's happening at Defcon."},{"startTime":403.734,"endTime":404.154,"body":"Uh, but"},{"startTime":404.184,"endTime":406.014,"body":"I have no idea what's"},{"startTime":404.184,"endTime":406.014,"body":"happening at Def Gun."},{"startTime":406.014,"endTime":408.624,"body":"I think we talked last year about"},{"startTime":406.014,"endTime":408.624,"body":"how much I dislike going to Def Gun."},{"startTime":408.624,"endTime":408.984,"body":"So"},{"startTime":409.079,"endTime":414.004,"body":"Aw, like going to Def Con, but"},{"startTime":409.079,"endTime":414.004,"body":"I think last year I was doing PQ"},{"startTime":414.004,"endTime":415.924,"body":"thingies at the Crypto village and"},{"startTime":415.924,"endTime":419.044,"body":"I don't, haven't been able to"},{"startTime":415.924,"endTime":419.044,"body":"participate very much in this year."},{"startTime":419.044,"endTime":421.864,"body":"But for Black Hat, we've got a"},{"startTime":419.044,"endTime":421.864,"body":"couple of things on the crypto track."},{"startTime":422.137,"endTime":422.707,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":422.827,"endTime":429.247,"body":"Uh, there is, um, one talk about someone"},{"startTime":422.827,"endTime":429.247,"body":"found some SCADA slash ICS protocol"},{"startTime":429.247,"endTime":431.167,"body":"that's apparently called OPC uua."},{"startTime":431.677,"endTime":435.277,"body":"Um, I don't know where and how these"},{"startTime":431.677,"endTime":435.277,"body":"are used or if they're internet exposed."},{"startTime":435.817,"endTime":440.257,"body":"My understanding from a bunch of research"},{"startTime":435.817,"endTime":440.257,"body":"from census is that all the SCADA stuff"},{"startTime":440.257,"endTime":446.137,"body":"is like exposed on port 80 80 via HTTP and"},{"startTime":440.257,"endTime":446.137,"body":"not via like Modbus or something, right?"},{"startTime":446.137,"endTime":451.087,"body":"You just find the admin panels, not the"},{"startTime":446.137,"endTime":451.087,"body":"underlying protocols, but regardless,"},{"startTime":451.147,"endTime":454.267,"body":"the underlying protocol here has a"},{"startTime":451.147,"endTime":454.267,"body":"bunch of nineties, there are Crypto Vs."},{"startTime":454.272,"endTime":455.047,"body":"Which is kind of funny."},{"startTime":455.407,"endTime":456.367,"body":"Um, and padding."},{"startTime":456.367,"endTime":458.047,"body":"Oracles make Thomas happy."},{"startTime":459.047,"endTime":464.657,"body":"I mean, I just, those are fun"},{"startTime":459.047,"endTime":464.657,"body":"projects and, uh, you know, fun"},{"startTime":464.657,"endTime":469.912,"body":"talks like, like a, a really hardcore"},{"startTime":464.657,"endTime":469.912,"body":"new side channel vulnerability."},{"startTime":470.627,"endTime":473.747,"body":"Um, is not gonna have the kind"},{"startTime":470.627,"endTime":473.747,"body":"of payoff that you're hoping"},{"startTime":473.747,"endTime":475.757,"body":"for in a talk or whatever."},{"startTime":475.817,"endTime":478.667,"body":"Like, it'll be meaningful"},{"startTime":475.817,"endTime":478.667,"body":"cryptographically and, you know, it'll"},{"startTime":478.667,"endTime":482.207,"body":"be meaningful to computer science, but"},{"startTime":478.667,"endTime":482.207,"body":"it won't be like dramatic, like it won't"},{"startTime":482.207,"endTime":484.427,"body":"Hollywood, whatever the application is."},{"startTime":484.667,"endTime":487.847,"body":"And this, this talk looks like there are"},{"startTime":484.667,"endTime":487.847,"body":"some Hollywood vulnerabilities in it."},{"startTime":488.237,"endTime":490.907,"body":"So I, I do, I do love a"},{"startTime":488.237,"endTime":490.907,"body":"Hollywood crypto vulnerability."},{"startTime":491.552,"endTime":491.792,"body":"what?"},{"startTime":491.822,"endTime":494.552,"body":"How do you define a Hollywood"},{"startTime":491.822,"endTime":494.552,"body":"crypto vulnerability?"},{"startTime":494.807,"endTime":498.647,"body":"A Hollywood crypto vulnerability is one"},{"startTime":494.807,"endTime":498.647,"body":"where you can write an exploit, where"},{"startTime":498.647,"endTime":502.277,"body":"you have a random string that's rotating"},{"startTime":498.647,"endTime":502.277,"body":"quickly on the screen and gradually a"},{"startTime":502.277,"endTime":503.987,"body":"character at a time is revealing itself."},{"startTime":504.017,"endTime":507.327,"body":"Like in the Hollywood movies,"},{"startTime":504.017,"endTime":507.327,"body":"that's not, it's not my term"},{"startTime":507.327,"endTime":508.497,"body":"that's, that's tied on's term."},{"startTime":508.497,"endTime":511.287,"body":"It's a, that's a real, you, you"},{"startTime":508.497,"endTime":511.287,"body":"should know this as a cryptographer"},{"startTime":511.287,"endTime":512.307,"body":"because that's a real term."},{"startTime":513.048,"endTime":517.053,"body":"I, I missed that post on their blog."},{"startTime":517.233,"endTime":517.983,"body":"Uh, but no."},{"startTime":517.983,"endTime":520.413,"body":"Yeah, I, uh, that that sounds about right."},{"startTime":520.413,"endTime":523.203,"body":"I think this is something we"},{"startTime":520.413,"endTime":523.203,"body":"would see in, um, what's that"},{"startTime":523.203,"endTime":524.943,"body":"movie with Hugh Jackman Swordfish"},{"startTime":525.408,"endTime":525.918,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":526.863,"endTime":529.803,"body":"like, he's undergoing like"},{"startTime":526.863,"endTime":529.803,"body":"torture while trying to hack"},{"startTime":529.803,"endTime":532.023,"body":"into something for some reason."},{"startTime":532.023,"endTime":533.283,"body":"And there's all these graphics."},{"startTime":533.313,"endTime":533.493,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":533.958,"endTime":537.408,"body":"It's been, it's been too long since"},{"startTime":533.958,"endTime":537.408,"body":"we've had a Hollywood vulnerability and"},{"startTime":537.408,"endTime":541.488,"body":"a, you know, a more recent construction"},{"startTime":537.408,"endTime":541.488,"body":"probably because we spent the 2000"},{"startTime":541.488,"endTime":543.978,"body":"tens eradicating those vulnerabilities."},{"startTime":544.308,"endTime":547.458,"body":"But there, they're due a comeback now"},{"startTime":544.308,"endTime":547.458,"body":"that we're doing post quantum stuff."},{"startTime":547.458,"endTime":548.748,"body":"We should find new ways to, uh,"},{"startTime":549.138,"endTime":549.962,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":550.416,"endTime":555.486,"body":"I'm worried about those sort of things"},{"startTime":550.416,"endTime":555.486,"body":"for this sort of reason because stuff"},{"startTime":555.486,"endTime":558.366,"body":"that you haven't touched in a long"},{"startTime":555.486,"endTime":558.366,"body":"time that is like, all right, fine."},{"startTime":558.396,"endTime":561.966,"body":"And now you have to go touch it and you"},{"startTime":558.396,"endTime":561.966,"body":"have to shove something new shaped into"},{"startTime":561.966,"endTime":564.126,"body":"it or something larger, for example."},{"startTime":564.126,"endTime":565.506,"body":"'cause all the PQ stuff is larger."},{"startTime":565.716,"endTime":570.106,"body":"And then suddenly things just kind"},{"startTime":565.716,"endTime":570.106,"body":"of go, just the crack start showing,"},{"startTime":570.406,"endTime":574.396,"body":"and then we have a talk there"},{"startTime":570.406,"endTime":574.396,"body":"on fault injection attacks,"},{"startTime":574.426,"endTime":577.696,"body":"on post quantum signatures,"},{"startTime":574.426,"endTime":577.696,"body":"which is entirely you, Deirdre."},{"startTime":578.056,"endTime":578.416,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":578.416,"endTime":579.136,"body":"Let me go,"},{"startTime":579.423,"endTime":581.583,"body":"Did you say you had no idea"},{"startTime":579.423,"endTime":581.583,"body":"what was going on at Blackout?"},{"startTime":581.613,"endTime":582.348,"body":"You were a viewer for"},{"startTime":582.423,"endTime":582.723,"body":"Blackout."},{"startTime":582.858,"endTime":583.638,"body":"con def con,"},{"startTime":583.683,"endTime":584.163,"body":"Oh, Def Gun."},{"startTime":584.193,"endTime":584.433,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":584.733,"endTime":584.928,"body":"con,"},{"startTime":585.305,"endTime":589.505,"body":"Um, this is targeting,"},{"startTime":585.305,"endTime":589.505,"body":"um, verification logic."},{"startTime":589.865,"endTime":590.375,"body":"What,"},{"startTime":591.715,"endTime":594.445,"body":"Yeah, just what actually"},{"startTime":591.715,"endTime":594.445,"body":"is a fault, right?"},{"startTime":594.445,"endTime":596.125,"body":"RSA fault injection was like a"},{"startTime":596.125,"endTime":600.115,"body":"big thing, and at this point I"},{"startTime":596.125,"endTime":600.115,"body":"don't actually know what a fault"},{"startTime":600.115,"endTime":601.975,"body":"is and I'm kind of afraid to ask."},{"startTime":603.742,"endTime":605.52,"body":"um, it's like a way to like"},{"startTime":605.85,"endTime":607.8,"body":"twiddle with everything"},{"startTime":607.97,"endTime":608.72,"body":"like a random"},{"startTime":608.72,"endTime":609.35,"body":"bit flip"},{"startTime":609.35,"endTime":610.49,"body":"in your signature."},{"startTime":611.04,"endTime":611.58,"body":"And like"},{"startTime":611.61,"endTime":612.24,"body":"you're able"},{"startTime":612.41,"endTime":613.61,"body":"reveals your private key."},{"startTime":613.69,"endTime":616.87,"body":"or, or whatever you're able to cons"},{"startTime":613.69,"endTime":616.87,"body":"like, and this one, you're able to"},{"startTime":616.87,"endTime":620.283,"body":"construct a forgery, uh, without"},{"startTime":616.87,"endTime":620.283,"body":"breaking the underlying primitive."},{"startTime":620.29,"endTime":624.55,"body":"So it's like the, the cryptographic"},{"startTime":620.29,"endTime":624.55,"body":"assumptions are solid."},{"startTime":624.64,"endTime":628.75,"body":"The algorithms for signing and"},{"startTime":624.64,"endTime":628.75,"body":"verifying and keygen is solid."},{"startTime":628.93,"endTime":632.74,"body":"The implementation on the"},{"startTime":628.93,"endTime":632.74,"body":"surface is like solid."},{"startTime":632.74,"endTime":637.39,"body":"And then this is you trying to like,"},{"startTime":632.74,"endTime":637.39,"body":"do some bit flips or some like voltage,"},{"startTime":637.45,"endTime":638.95,"body":"you know, shenanigans or whatever."},{"startTime":638.95,"endTime":644.29,"body":"And you're able to like futz with"},{"startTime":638.95,"endTime":644.29,"body":"the actual execution of a correct"},{"startTime":644.29,"endTime":648.67,"body":"algorithm and you're able to produce"},{"startTime":644.29,"endTime":648.67,"body":"a result that, uh, you know, is bad."},{"startTime":648.73,"endTime":651.188,"body":"And like in this case,"},{"startTime":648.73,"endTime":651.188,"body":"it's like forgeries of"},{"startTime":651.518,"endTime":652.298,"body":"signatures."},{"startTime":652.808,"endTime":654.513,"body":"Um, yeah, like."},{"startTime":655.148,"endTime":657.098,"body":"Real microcontrollers."},{"startTime":657.788,"endTime":663.188,"body":"These are, you know, things you have to"},{"startTime":657.788,"endTime":663.188,"body":"be able to be aware of when you have,"},{"startTime":664.028,"endTime":665.168,"body":"when those things are in your"},{"startTime":665.168,"endTime":665.888,"body":"threat model."},{"startTime":666.083,"endTime":669.353,"body":"you should, I mean, like, let's think"},{"startTime":666.083,"endTime":669.353,"body":"about RSA, I don't know the specifics of"},{"startTime":669.353,"endTime":671.873,"body":"how this works in post quantum signatures."},{"startTime":671.933,"endTime":677.063,"body":"Um, uh, like presumably we can go"},{"startTime":671.933,"endTime":677.063,"body":"to this talk and learn, um, but."},{"startTime":677.617,"endTime":681.653,"body":"Like in RSA, like a number of years"},{"startTime":677.617,"endTime":681.653,"body":"ago, like five years ago or something,"},{"startTime":681.653,"endTime":685.493,"body":"like everyone collectively decided, oh,"},{"startTime":681.653,"endTime":685.493,"body":"we should like make sure that like we"},{"startTime":685.493,"endTime":689.393,"body":"don't output an invalid signature if"},{"startTime":685.493,"endTime":689.393,"body":"there's a bit flip from RSA libraries"},{"startTime":689.393,"endTime":690.983,"body":"and basically double check your result."},{"startTime":690.983,"endTime":693.803,"body":"And there's a cheap way to do"},{"startTime":690.983,"endTime":693.803,"body":"that without like doing all the"},{"startTime":693.803,"endTime":698.243,"body":"computation and everyone added"},{"startTime":693.803,"endTime":698.243,"body":"that to their RSA libraries, except"},{"startTime":698.243,"endTime":701.543,"body":"apparently like Baidu, uh, um."},{"startTime":701.863,"endTime":707.693,"body":"So like some researchers at San Diego"},{"startTime":701.863,"endTime":707.693,"body":"and CU Boulder were just like monitoring"},{"startTime":707.723,"endTime":711.923,"body":"TLS connections for a passive tap on"},{"startTime":707.723,"endTime":711.923,"body":"their campuses and just like looking for"},{"startTime":711.923,"endTime":713.513,"body":"bit flips and signatures and the answer."},{"startTime":713.543,"endTime":716.153,"body":"And they found four and all of them"},{"startTime":713.543,"endTime":716.153,"body":"were for Baidu because it turned"},{"startTime":716.153,"endTime":720.263,"body":"out out that like everybody except"},{"startTime":716.153,"endTime":720.263,"body":"Baidu had updated their libraries"},{"startTime":720.263,"endTime":721.583,"body":"to like defend against this."},{"startTime":721.643,"endTime":725.643,"body":"And once you have a couple of 'em,"},{"startTime":721.643,"endTime":725.643,"body":"you just like CRT out the private key."},{"startTime":725.882,"endTime":728.737,"body":"so if you want a conspiracy"},{"startTime":725.882,"endTime":728.737,"body":"theory, there it is."},{"startTime":729.062,"endTime":729.422,"body":"several"},{"startTime":729.422,"endTime":730.862,"body":"signatures from the same key pair,"},{"startTime":731.027,"endTime":733.327,"body":"Yeah, if you have like more than one fault"},{"startTime":733.327,"endTime":734.197,"body":"from the same key?"},{"startTime":734.197,"endTime":737.107,"body":"pair, you can just CRT"},{"startTime":734.197,"endTime":737.107,"body":"out the private key."},{"startTime":737.43,"endTime":743.19,"body":"I don't know, uh, I don't remember"},{"startTime":737.43,"endTime":743.19,"body":"from the submission if this, like,"},{"startTime":743.88,"endTime":745.92,"body":"if that sort of attack"},{"startTime":745.92,"endTime":749.46,"body":"is leverageable or it sounds like"},{"startTime":745.92,"endTime":749.46,"body":"they're just able to produce a"},{"startTime":749.46,"endTime":755.1,"body":"forgery when they have direct, you"},{"startTime":749.46,"endTime":755.1,"body":"know, injectable attacks against the"},{"startTime":755.1,"endTime":757.47,"body":"thing that's actually doing signing or"},{"startTime":757.89,"endTime":758.43,"body":"something like"},{"startTime":758.85,"endTime":760.178,"body":"Yeah, it's really just"},{"startTime":760.31,"endTime":763.58,"body":"RSA that has this fun property"},{"startTime":760.31,"endTime":763.58,"body":"where when you do anything wrong,"},{"startTime":763.58,"endTime":764.78,"body":"the private key just pops out."},{"startTime":765.804,"endTime":769.974,"body":"Well, you know, the, this not for fault"},{"startTime":765.804,"endTime":769.974,"body":"injection, but you know, E-C-D-S-A"},{"startTime":770.004,"endTime":772.974,"body":"has had issues with, you know,"},{"startTime":770.004,"endTime":772.974,"body":"bias, nonsense and things like that."},{"startTime":772.974,"endTime":776.124,"body":"So it's, it's not just an"},{"startTime":772.974,"endTime":776.124,"body":"RSA thing or, or, you know,"},{"startTime":776.574,"endTime":780.024,"body":"uh, factor things based on"},{"startTime":776.574,"endTime":780.024,"body":"multiplying primes together."},{"startTime":780.354,"endTime":783.114,"body":"Um, but it shows up in different ways."},{"startTime":783.114,"endTime":787.914,"body":"So like the, the way you construct"},{"startTime":783.114,"endTime":787.914,"body":"the signature can really matter, um,"},{"startTime":787.974,"endTime":793.584,"body":"with, uh, how you, what sort of things"},{"startTime":787.974,"endTime":793.584,"body":"you're opening yourself up to, even"},{"startTime":793.584,"endTime":797.394,"body":"if it doesn't, if it's not directly"},{"startTime":793.584,"endTime":797.394,"body":"about fault injection or fault attacks."},{"startTime":797.994,"endTime":802.764,"body":"Um, I'm trying to see if there's"},{"startTime":797.994,"endTime":802.764,"body":"a, um, if there's like a mitigation"},{"startTime":802.794,"endTime":807.474,"body":"about, at least the, the Sphinx"},{"startTime":802.794,"endTime":807.474,"body":"plus one, which got Sphinx Plus got"},{"startTime":807.474,"endTime":812.304,"body":"turned into S-L-H-D-S-A as the FIPs"},{"startTime":812.489,"endTime":813.389,"body":"the big hash"},{"startTime":813.389,"endTime":813.779,"body":"signature."},{"startTime":814.344,"endTime":814.944,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":815.027,"endTime":818.035,"body":"And everyone both loves it and you know."},{"startTime":819.009,"endTime":823.149,"body":"Not, there are people who are"},{"startTime":819.009,"endTime":823.149,"body":"like, Hey, let's use S-L-H-G-S-A,"},{"startTime":823.209,"endTime":824.949,"body":"uh, for TLS signatures."},{"startTime":824.949,"endTime":829.179,"body":"And some people are like, yes, I love"},{"startTime":824.949,"endTime":829.179,"body":"that because I need it for reasons."},{"startTime":829.179,"endTime":831.369,"body":"And other people are like,"},{"startTime":829.179,"endTime":831.369,"body":"why would you ever do this on"},{"startTime":831.369,"endTime":833.559,"body":"the, uh, uh, secure internet?"},{"startTime":833.919,"endTime":835.659,"body":"Uh, sorry, on the secure web."},{"startTime":835.662,"endTime":838.032,"body":"Why would you ever serve these"},{"startTime":835.662,"endTime":838.032,"body":"certificates for the web?"},{"startTime":838.032,"endTime":839.022,"body":"And they're like, we are not."},{"startTime":839.082,"endTime":842.592,"body":"We use TLS in other places"},{"startTime":839.082,"endTime":842.592,"body":"besides the web, and it's suits"},{"startTime":842.592,"endTime":844.392,"body":"us really well in those places."},{"startTime":844.759,"endTime":845.106,"body":"so"},{"startTime":845.166,"endTime":847.131,"body":"some people want to use SLH-DSA,"},{"startTime":847.137,"endTime":848.907,"body":"this is what everyone"},{"startTime":847.137,"endTime":848.907,"body":"puts into hardware, right?"},{"startTime":848.907,"endTime":849.987,"body":"Like if you have a hardware"},{"startTime":850.737,"endTime":853.501,"body":"if hardware verification of like"},{"startTime":850.737,"endTime":853.501,"body":"your own firmware, it tends to"},{"startTime":853.705,"endTime":854.995,"body":"Yep, exactly."},{"startTime":855.08,"endTime":856.708,"body":"I'm not finding countermeasures"},{"startTime":856.94,"endTime":858.17,"body":"real quick here,"},{"startTime":858.185,"endTime":860.365,"body":"We will just have to go"},{"startTime":858.185,"endTime":860.365,"body":"to the talk and learn."},{"startTime":860.365,"endTime":861.912,"body":"yes, yes."},{"startTime":861.934,"endTime":863.187,"body":"Uh, Tetra"},{"startTime":864.849,"endTime":865.269,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":865.518,"endTime":865.998,"body":"so tetra"},{"startTime":865.998,"endTime":868.098,"body":"is like really big in Europe, right?"},{"startTime":868.098,"endTime":870.888,"body":"Like it's a big deal, like public"},{"startTime":868.098,"endTime":870.888,"body":"safety protocol or whatever."},{"startTime":870.888,"endTime":872.628,"body":"Is it like what the police use or,"},{"startTime":872.873,"endTime":874.973,"body":"it's, yeah, the police and"},{"startTime":874.973,"endTime":877.336,"body":"military use it a lot in to like"},{"startTime":877.336,"endTime":882.226,"body":"so there's like, um, there's an"},{"startTime":877.336,"endTime":882.226,"body":"end to end tetra encryption thing."},{"startTime":882.406,"endTime":885.256,"body":"So the, the authors of this did"},{"startTime":882.406,"endTime":885.256,"body":"a, did a, a presentation and a"},{"startTime":885.256,"endTime":886.936,"body":"paper on Tetra like two years"},{"startTime":886.936,"endTime":887.176,"body":"ago."},{"startTime":887.726,"endTime":891.286,"body":"Um, so this, this is the second time"},{"startTime":887.726,"endTime":891.286,"body":"Tetra has been on a black hat track."},{"startTime":891.646,"endTime":895.546,"body":"Um, and like, I guess, so I don't"},{"startTime":891.646,"endTime":895.546,"body":"know enough about Tetra, but I"},{"startTime":895.546,"endTime":899.326,"body":"guess there's some, like I was"},{"startTime":895.546,"endTime":899.326,"body":"gonna say novel constructions there,"},{"startTime":899.326,"endTime":902.056,"body":"although I'm assuming it's not"},{"startTime":899.326,"endTime":902.056,"body":"novel in a computer science sense."},{"startTime":902.056,"endTime":905.956,"body":"It's like novel in a, you know,"},{"startTime":902.056,"endTime":905.956,"body":"internal standards came up"},{"startTime":905.956,"endTime":907.216,"body":"with some random shit sense."},{"startTime":907.636,"endTime":911.806,"body":"Um, so like, and I, I guess it's"},{"startTime":907.636,"endTime":911.806,"body":"like a suite of different things and"},{"startTime":911.806,"endTime":913.096,"body":"there's an end-to-end protocol on it."},{"startTime":913.096,"endTime":915.179,"body":"And they broke in some"},{"startTime":913.096,"endTime":915.179,"body":"ways, the end-to-end"},{"startTime":915.226,"endTime":915.646,"body":"protocol."},{"startTime":916.141,"endTime":916.411,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":917.231,"endTime":917.946,"body":"A suite of tools"},{"startTime":918.796,"endTime":921.676,"body":"We should have more to say about"},{"startTime":918.796,"endTime":921.676,"body":"like, again, I think this is a really"},{"startTime":921.676,"endTime":924.076,"body":"big deal in Europe and we're just"},{"startTime":921.676,"endTime":924.076,"body":"being blase about it because we're"},{"startTime":924.076,"endTime":926.056,"body":"Americans and have our superior American."},{"startTime":926.571,"endTime":926.901,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":926.901,"endTime":930.561,"body":"In America, we just speak clear"},{"startTime":926.901,"endTime":930.561,"body":"text over radio like adults."},{"startTime":931.013,"endTime":931.853,"body":"Uh, okay."},{"startTime":931.853,"endTime":936.443,"body":"So they like reverse engineer out"},{"startTime":931.853,"endTime":936.443,"body":"the end-to-end encryption protocol."},{"startTime":936.851,"endTime":942.191,"body":"discovered several critical zero"},{"startTime":936.851,"endTime":942.191,"body":"days in the radio, in the process."},{"startTime":942.611,"endTime":946.721,"body":"Uh, additional key extraction and"},{"startTime":942.611,"endTime":946.721,"body":"covert implanting vulnerabilities."},{"startTime":946.751,"endTime":947.681,"body":"Awesome."},{"startTime":947.761,"endTime":947.911,"body":"know."},{"startTime":948.056,"endTime":951.836,"body":"So when we, when we do these, um, like"},{"startTime":948.056,"endTime":951.836,"body":"we're all three of us are reviewers"},{"startTime":951.836,"endTime":953.456,"body":"for the the crypto tracker plaque app."},{"startTime":953.846,"endTime":957.566,"body":"And when we're reviewing these things,"},{"startTime":953.846,"endTime":957.566,"body":"like you get a limited number of"},{"startTime":957.566,"endTime":960.896,"body":"slots for each track, and there are"},{"startTime":957.566,"endTime":960.896,"body":"a lot of black hat tracks, right?"},{"startTime":960.896,"endTime":963.776,"body":"So we got more slots than I"},{"startTime":960.896,"endTime":963.776,"body":"expected for cryptography this"},{"startTime":963.776,"endTime":966.536,"body":"year, but there have been years"},{"startTime":963.776,"endTime":966.536,"body":"where we've gotten like two, right?"},{"startTime":966.566,"endTime":970.316,"body":"So there's like a knife fight at"},{"startTime":966.566,"endTime":970.316,"body":"the beginning of the review thing"},{"startTime":970.496,"endTime":974.096,"body":"for like, if there's any excuse to"},{"startTime":970.496,"endTime":974.096,"body":"getting a talk off of your track"},{"startTime":974.096,"endTime":975.476,"body":"and onto somebody else's track."},{"startTime":975.746,"endTime":977.096,"body":"Like, there's a lot of reversing in this."},{"startTime":977.096,"endTime":980.366,"body":"So maybe this isn't a cryptography talk,"},{"startTime":977.096,"endTime":980.366,"body":"maybe this is a reversing talk, right?"},{"startTime":980.726,"endTime":983.846,"body":"Um, like you'll, you'll take"},{"startTime":980.726,"endTime":983.846,"body":"those excuses and move things to,"},{"startTime":984.026,"endTime":987.116,"body":"for us it's usually either like"},{"startTime":984.026,"endTime":987.116,"body":"things get moved to networking."},{"startTime":987.476,"endTime":989.096,"body":"Um, 'cause there's a lot"},{"startTime":987.476,"endTime":989.096,"body":"of network cryptography."},{"startTime":989.426,"endTime":992.396,"body":"Um, or they get moved to reversing"},{"startTime":989.426,"endTime":992.396,"body":"'cause there's reversing involved in it."},{"startTime":992.396,"endTime":996.596,"body":"So it does say something about this"},{"startTime":992.396,"endTime":996.596,"body":"talk that it survived and stayed on"},{"startTime":996.596,"endTime":1000.646,"body":"our track, um, and did not get pushed"},{"startTime":996.596,"endTime":1000.646,"body":"to reversing despite the fact that"},{"startTime":1000.646,"endTime":1003.676,"body":"there is, from what I understand, a"},{"startTime":1000.646,"endTime":1003.676,"body":"pretty compelling reverse engineering"},{"startTime":1003.676,"endTime":1005.416,"body":"story about what happened here."},{"startTime":1005.866,"endTime":1009.436,"body":"Also, like it's, it's actually a big"},{"startTime":1005.866,"endTime":1009.436,"body":"thing in local politics where I am."},{"startTime":1009.436,"endTime":1012.796,"body":"The fact that we've, um, like the"},{"startTime":1009.436,"endTime":1012.796,"body":"dispatch center has now encrypted"},{"startTime":1012.796,"endTime":1016.696,"body":"all the police radio here, like just"},{"startTime":1012.796,"endTime":1016.696,"body":"last year, which means that nobody"},{"startTime":1016.696,"endTime":1019.576,"body":"can listen to scanners anymore and"},{"startTime":1016.696,"endTime":1019.576,"body":"they're all very upset about it."},{"startTime":1019.936,"endTime":1023.566,"body":"But we voted not to encrypt,"},{"startTime":1019.936,"endTime":1023.566,"body":"but we're like part of a three"},{"startTime":1023.566,"endTime":1026.926,"body":"municipality thing where the other"},{"startTime":1023.566,"endTime":1026.926,"body":"two municipalities outvoted us."},{"startTime":1026.986,"endTime":1031.816,"body":"So, and I have like, so that's like"},{"startTime":1026.986,"endTime":1031.816,"body":"Motorola Star or Starcom or whatever and"},{"startTime":1031.816,"endTime":1033.586,"body":"I have no idea how that system works."},{"startTime":1033.586,"endTime":1037.426,"body":"So somebody out there listening knows"},{"startTime":1033.586,"endTime":1037.426,"body":"how the Motorola encrypted Public"},{"startTime":1037.426,"endTime":1042.016,"body":"Safety Radio, um, stuff works and"},{"startTime":1037.426,"endTime":1042.016,"body":"they should contact us so we can do"},{"startTime":1042.046,"endTime":1044.716,"body":"a show and then I can look really"},{"startTime":1042.046,"endTime":1044.716,"body":"smart in front of our village board"},{"startTime":1044.716,"endTime":1045.646,"body":"and talk about stuff."},{"startTime":1045.901,"endTime":1047.731,"body":"Now, now I'm getting slightly,"},{"startTime":1047.886,"endTime":1049.466,"body":"uh, nerd sniped about"},{"startTime":1049.466,"endTime":1049.626,"body":"this."},{"startTime":1049.836,"endTime":1052.866,"body":"I assume there's some way that you"},{"startTime":1049.836,"endTime":1052.866,"body":"could like have a, A lot of those"},{"startTime":1052.866,"endTime":1055.956,"body":"police scanners have like a web portal,"},{"startTime":1052.866,"endTime":1055.956,"body":"and it seems like even if the whole"},{"startTime":1055.956,"endTime":1058.746,"body":"thing was encrypted, you could just"},{"startTime":1055.956,"endTime":1058.746,"body":"have a web portal, then it would be"},{"startTime":1058.746,"endTime":1059.046,"body":"like, oh,"},{"startTime":1059.046,"endTime":1060.416,"body":"I can't use my ham radio at home"},{"startTime":1060.416,"endTime":1061.526,"body":"Yeah, it is."},{"startTime":1061.526,"endTime":1066.056,"body":"It is funny to me that like, so it's"},{"startTime":1061.526,"endTime":1066.056,"body":"a really big deal that you can decrypt"},{"startTime":1066.056,"endTime":1069.806,"body":"police radio in Europe and here it's"},{"startTime":1066.056,"endTime":1069.806,"body":"like it's a really big deal that they can"},{"startTime":1069.806,"endTime":1071.936,"body":"encrypt police radio in the first place."},{"startTime":1072.326,"endTime":1075.896,"body":"And like, so most of my friends are like"},{"startTime":1072.326,"endTime":1075.896,"body":"civil libertarian type people who really"},{"startTime":1075.896,"endTime":1080.846,"body":"want transparency and are bothered by the"},{"startTime":1075.896,"endTime":1080.846,"body":"fact that like, you know, we're encrypting"},{"startTime":1080.846,"endTime":1082.376,"body":"and making that stuff less transparent."},{"startTime":1082.586,"endTime":1085.976,"body":"But when you think about it, it is"},{"startTime":1082.586,"endTime":1085.976,"body":"fucking ludicrous that if you're like"},{"startTime":1085.976,"endTime":1088.946,"body":"breaking into houses or whatever, you"},{"startTime":1085.976,"endTime":1088.946,"body":"could just have a scanner with you"},{"startTime":1089.331,"endTime":1090.896,"body":"and just like, are they coming yet?"},{"startTime":1091.361,"endTime":1091.781,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1091.896,"endTime":1094.941,"body":"I mean, yeah, like, yeah."},{"startTime":1095.486,"endTime":1099.326,"body":"It seems like a non hypothetical"},{"startTime":1095.486,"endTime":1099.326,"body":"actual public safety problem that"},{"startTime":1099.326,"endTime":1101.336,"body":"you can like stalk the police."},{"startTime":1101.996,"endTime":1104.276,"body":"They'd literally be better off"},{"startTime":1101.996,"endTime":1104.276,"body":"just using their cell phones."},{"startTime":1104.726,"endTime":1105.206,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1105.206,"endTime":1106.766,"body":"And I feel like they do do that."},{"startTime":1106.766,"endTime":1110.306,"body":"Or at least other, you"},{"startTime":1106.766,"endTime":1110.306,"body":"know, internal, um, law"},{"startTime":1110.306,"endTime":1110.936,"body":"enforcement"},{"startTime":1110.936,"endTime":1111.566,"body":"services"},{"startTime":1111.571,"endTime":1116.581,"body":"This is why I always coordinate my law"},{"startTime":1111.571,"endTime":1116.581,"body":"enforcement action privately over signal."},{"startTime":1116.581,"endTime":1120.151,"body":"But then for transparency, I add"},{"startTime":1116.581,"endTime":1120.151,"body":"the lead editor of the Atlantic"},{"startTime":1120.151,"endTime":1121.561,"body":"to the group chat, and that way"},{"startTime":1121.561,"endTime":1122.521,"body":"everybody's happy."},{"startTime":1122.696,"endTime":1127.946,"body":"I add Jeff, and you don't really check"},{"startTime":1122.696,"endTime":1127.946,"body":"very hard about which Jeff you're adding."},{"startTime":1128.906,"endTime":1130.646,"body":"Well, well played both of you."},{"startTime":1131.486,"endTime":1132.446,"body":"That was very smooth."},{"startTime":1132.446,"endTime":1133.438,"body":"You just kind of worked it right in there."},{"startTime":1134.438,"endTime":1137.948,"body":"Um, but yeah, this, uh,"},{"startTime":1134.438,"endTime":1137.948,"body":"this is cryptography."},{"startTime":1137.948,"endTime":1140.236,"body":"It reduces, uh, a hundred"},{"startTime":1137.948,"endTime":1140.236,"body":"eighty, a hundred twenty"},{"startTime":1140.236,"endTime":1142.358,"body":"eight bit key to only 56 bits."},{"startTime":1142.538,"endTime":1144.458,"body":"There's replay, there's injection."},{"startTime":1145.148,"endTime":1147.248,"body":"Uh, this looks pretty cool."},{"startTime":1147.398,"endTime":1147.938,"body":"Uh,"},{"startTime":1148.063,"endTime":1149.353,"body":"It's got all the good stuff."},{"startTime":1149.978,"endTime":1150.248,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1150.851,"endTime":1151.961,"body":"and naster."},{"startTime":1152.021,"endTime":1152.771,"body":"I forgot about the"},{"startTime":1153.056,"endTime":1154.766,"body":"Yeah, I'm, I'm really, I'm really"},{"startTime":1154.766,"endTime":1155.576,"body":"psyched about this."},{"startTime":1155.576,"endTime":1156.146,"body":"I'm very"},{"startTime":1156.151,"endTime":1156.561,"body":"psyched about,"},{"startTime":1157.261,"endTime":1157.651,"body":"Thomas."},{"startTime":1157.651,"endTime":1161.161,"body":"I, feel like you're, you get all of"},{"startTime":1157.651,"endTime":1161.161,"body":"your joy in life from finding some like."},{"startTime":1161.385,"endTime":1165.765,"body":"federated protocol that is more"},{"startTime":1161.385,"endTime":1165.765,"body":"popular in Europe that does something"},{"startTime":1165.765,"endTime":1170.685,"body":"security related, and then just like"},{"startTime":1165.765,"endTime":1170.685,"body":"shitting on it, just like, ah, these,"},{"startTime":1171.105,"endTime":1173.115,"body":"it's federated and it's European."},{"startTime":1173.787,"endTime":1175.017,"body":"I bet it sucks."},{"startTime":1175.416,"endTime":1179.076,"body":"I've written enough Hacker news comments"},{"startTime":1175.416,"endTime":1179.076,"body":"that like chat, GPT can do a pretty"},{"startTime":1179.076,"endTime":1181.056,"body":"convincing me just based on my name."},{"startTime":1181.056,"endTime":1184.806,"body":"Like you can ask other people to do it and"},{"startTime":1181.056,"endTime":1184.806,"body":"it will get my technical opinions correct."},{"startTime":1184.806,"endTime":1185.346,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1185.376,"endTime":1190.206,"body":"So I think if you asked if you, if you"},{"startTime":1185.376,"endTime":1190.206,"body":"asked chat GBT to do a comment from"},{"startTime":1190.206,"endTime":1193.806,"body":"Teek on Hacker News about federation."},{"startTime":1194.151,"endTime":1195.591,"body":"Insecure messaging protocols."},{"startTime":1195.861,"endTime":1199.311,"body":"It'll rattle off a pretty convincing,"},{"startTime":1195.861,"endTime":1199.311,"body":"I'll write a better set of paragraphs,"},{"startTime":1199.311,"endTime":1202.521,"body":"but it'll do a pretty convincing"},{"startTime":1199.311,"endTime":1202.521,"body":"take of what I believe about."},{"startTime":1202.731,"endTime":1204.081,"body":"And I don't believe anything interesting."},{"startTime":1204.081,"endTime":1207.501,"body":"I just actually believe what Moxie,"},{"startTime":1204.081,"endTime":1207.501,"body":"Marlin Spike said about Federating."},{"startTime":1207.861,"endTime":1209.511,"body":"I don't think there's"},{"startTime":1207.861,"endTime":1209.511,"body":"much more to it than that."},{"startTime":1209.511,"endTime":1209.901,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1210.021,"endTime":1212.841,"body":"And I'm not like a, I, I"},{"startTime":1210.021,"endTime":1212.841,"body":"like Moxie Marlin Spike fine."},{"startTime":1212.841,"endTime":1215.451,"body":"He seems like a fine person, but"},{"startTime":1212.841,"endTime":1215.451,"body":"we're not like friends or anything."},{"startTime":1215.781,"endTime":1219.741,"body":"But like to me, what he said"},{"startTime":1215.781,"endTime":1219.741,"body":"about the, the, the decisions that"},{"startTime":1219.741,"endTime":1221.871,"body":"Signal made simply made sense."},{"startTime":1221.991,"endTime":1225.531,"body":"And then were completely"},{"startTime":1221.991,"endTime":1225.531,"body":"vindicated by what happened with"},{"startTime":1225.531,"endTime":1228.621,"body":"Matrix, which is a team, like,"},{"startTime":1225.531,"endTime":1228.621,"body":"kind of doing the best they can."},{"startTime":1228.921,"endTime":1232.551,"body":"Like they, they, they were, you"},{"startTime":1228.921,"endTime":1232.551,"body":"know, they wound up in some strange"},{"startTime":1232.551,"endTime":1236.361,"body":"places, but like, they weren't doing"},{"startTime":1232.551,"endTime":1236.361,"body":"things for the sake of convenience."},{"startTime":1236.481,"endTime":1239.991,"body":"Like there are, there are signal"},{"startTime":1236.481,"endTime":1239.991,"body":"competitors that had like more"},{"startTime":1239.991,"endTime":1243.141,"body":"features and were easier to"},{"startTime":1239.991,"endTime":1243.141,"body":"use and had like synchronized"},{"startTime":1243.141,"endTime":1244.431,"body":"buddy lists and all that stuff."},{"startTime":1244.431,"endTime":1244.761,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1244.941,"endTime":1248.481,"body":"And the reason that they were competing"},{"startTime":1244.941,"endTime":1248.481,"body":"so favorably on usability was that"},{"startTime":1248.481,"endTime":1250.551,"body":"they had been making every possible."},{"startTime":1250.676,"endTime":1253.406,"body":"Decision in favor of UX"},{"startTime":1250.676,"endTime":1253.406,"body":"and away from security."},{"startTime":1253.586,"endTime":1254.636,"body":"And that's not Matrix."},{"startTime":1254.636,"endTime":1256.886,"body":"Matrix has taken the hard way for almost"},{"startTime":1256.886,"endTime":1257.336,"body":"everything."},{"startTime":1257.396,"endTime":1257.846,"body":"right."},{"startTime":1258.176,"endTime":1259.616,"body":"Including upfront"},{"startTime":1259.821,"endTime":1260.541,"body":"you're so right."},{"startTime":1260.541,"endTime":1262.581,"body":"The AI does an incredible version of you."},{"startTime":1262.581,"endTime":1266.661,"body":"I'm sorry, I just asked it like"},{"startTime":1262.581,"endTime":1266.661,"body":"it's, oh, it's got your voice down."},{"startTime":1267.261,"endTime":1270.021,"body":"It's like, it's a fly.io blog post, like"},{"startTime":1270.021,"endTime":1270.951,"body":"right here."},{"startTime":1270.951,"endTime":1272.601,"body":"This is bad because what it really says is"},{"startTime":1272.601,"endTime":1273.291,"body":"that I have chat"},{"startTime":1273.291,"endTime":1274.341,"body":"GBT voice."},{"startTime":1274.611,"endTime":1274.821,"body":"It's"},{"startTime":1274.866,"endTime":1275.436,"body":"No you"},{"startTime":1275.436,"endTime":1276.036,"body":"don't."},{"startTime":1276.061,"endTime":1276.721,"body":"no, no, no."},{"startTime":1276.721,"endTime":1281.331,"body":"You, you, you have enough material out on"},{"startTime":1276.721,"endTime":1281.331,"body":"the public internet that's been ingested"},{"startTime":1282.151,"endTime":1285.391,"body":"that, and the, you know, these"},{"startTime":1282.151,"endTime":1285.391,"body":"large language models are actually"},{"startTime":1285.391,"endTime":1287.191,"body":"quite good at the language shit."},{"startTime":1287.581,"endTime":1290.341,"body":"Uh, that I think that's,"},{"startTime":1287.581,"endTime":1290.341,"body":"that's most of it."},{"startTime":1290.471,"endTime":1290.711,"body":"do."},{"startTime":1290.711,"endTime":1293.651,"body":"I look like I know what a JPEG is."},{"startTime":1294.951,"endTime":1295.251,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1295.941,"endTime":1299.511,"body":"Uh, I don't think this is very"},{"startTime":1295.941,"endTime":1299.511,"body":"European though, though either."},{"startTime":1299.511,"endTime":1303.891,"body":"It's, it's just yet"},{"startTime":1299.511,"endTime":1303.891,"body":"another, um, Jack Dorsey."},{"startTime":1304.991,"endTime":1308.861,"body":"I don't, what's, what's the drug"},{"startTime":1304.991,"endTime":1308.861,"body":"of choice for, for measures?"},{"startTime":1308.891,"endTime":1309.581,"body":"Dorsey?"},{"startTime":1309.671,"endTime":1315.261,"body":"Uh, fucking they don't do"},{"startTime":1309.671,"endTime":1315.261,"body":"two C. What do they do?"},{"startTime":1315.441,"endTime":1317.181,"body":"They go in the, the Ayahuasca."},{"startTime":1317.271,"endTime":1322.941,"body":"It's some ayahuasca inspired initiative"},{"startTime":1317.271,"endTime":1322.941,"body":"from, from Meers Dorsey at all."},{"startTime":1323.058,"endTime":1326.658,"body":"definitely, it's not European, and"},{"startTime":1323.058,"endTime":1326.658,"body":"I can tell you why at the, from the"},{"startTime":1326.658,"endTime":1328.578,"body":"opening on Wikipedia about Noster"},{"startTime":1328.798,"endTime":1329.088,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1330.048,"endTime":1330.738,"body":"this is not me."},{"startTime":1330.738,"endTime":1331.578,"body":"This is Wikipedia."},{"startTime":1331.578,"endTime":1337.728,"body":"51% of Wikipedias believe what I'm about"},{"startTime":1331.578,"endTime":1337.728,"body":"to say, is the Noster protocol was first"},{"startTime":1337.728,"endTime":1342.288,"body":"written in 2020 by a right wing Brazilian"},{"startTime":1337.728,"endTime":1342.288,"body":"open source developer known by the"},{"startTime":1342.288,"endTime":1349.348,"body":"pseudonym Fiat j. was created as a result"},{"startTime":1342.288,"endTime":1349.348,"body":"of perceived moderation issues on Twitter."},{"startTime":1350.348,"endTime":1353.318,"body":"So, yes, it's awesome and"},{"startTime":1350.348,"endTime":1353.318,"body":"everybody should be using it."},{"startTime":1353.318,"endTime":1358.508,"body":"And how I know that is that every time"},{"startTime":1353.318,"endTime":1358.508,"body":"the topic of federated, secure messaging"},{"startTime":1358.508,"endTime":1362.558,"body":"or signal comes up on Hacker News, like"},{"startTime":1358.508,"endTime":1362.558,"body":"three people come out of the woodwork to"},{"startTime":1362.558,"endTime":1364.328,"body":"say that everybody should be using noster."},{"startTime":1365.328,"endTime":1365.788,"body":"but Okay."},{"startTime":1365.948,"endTime":1369.548,"body":"yeah, this year at Black Hat, we"},{"startTime":1365.948,"endTime":1369.548,"body":"have a, we have our, our response."},{"startTime":1370.373,"endTime":1370.673,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1370.763,"endTime":1378.143,"body":"Um, so one, what, we'll put a link"},{"startTime":1370.763,"endTime":1378.143,"body":"in the notes, what Moxie when he was"},{"startTime":1378.143,"endTime":1385.364,"body":"leading Signal said about federation"},{"startTime":1378.143,"endTime":1385.364,"body":"was basically, it's hard to control"},{"startTime":1385.364,"endTime":1390.284,"body":"all the ends of the protocol that"},{"startTime":1385.364,"endTime":1390.284,"body":"interoperate with your secure and tend"},{"startTime":1390.284,"endTime":1393.164,"body":"encryption privacy protocol because"},{"startTime":1390.284,"endTime":1393.164,"body":"there's the encryption part, but"},{"startTime":1393.164,"endTime":1397.214,"body":"there's other parts of signal to service"},{"startTime":1393.164,"endTime":1397.214,"body":"that are about privacy, independent"},{"startTime":1397.304,"endTime":1399.134,"body":"of the end unencrypted messaging."},{"startTime":1399.533,"endTime":1403.523,"body":"Quote, it's undeniable that once you"},{"startTime":1399.533,"endTime":1403.523,"body":"federate your protocol, it becomes"},{"startTime":1403.523,"endTime":1405.623,"body":"very difficult to make changes."},{"startTime":1405.986,"endTime":1406.736,"body":"that's it."},{"startTime":1406.826,"endTime":1412.376,"body":"Uh, signal wanted to be able to control"},{"startTime":1406.826,"endTime":1412.376,"body":"all the ends, and they still do."},{"startTime":1412.646,"endTime":1415.946,"body":"This is also what WhatsApp does,"},{"startTime":1412.646,"endTime":1415.946,"body":"but they don't move as much."},{"startTime":1415.946,"endTime":1419.096,"body":"They, well they do, but they're"},{"startTime":1415.946,"endTime":1419.096,"body":"just moving and a inject, uh,"},{"startTime":1419.126,"endTime":1423.836,"body":"AI into every little corner of"},{"startTime":1419.126,"endTime":1423.836,"body":"your, um, of your app direction."},{"startTime":1423.836,"endTime":1428.216,"body":"But for Signal, they control their"},{"startTime":1423.836,"endTime":1428.216,"body":"Android clients and their iOS clients"},{"startTime":1428.216,"endTime":1431.276,"body":"and their desktop clients, and that"},{"startTime":1428.216,"endTime":1431.276,"body":"means that they've been able to move"},{"startTime":1431.456,"endTime":1435.236,"body":"pretty quickly 'cause they control"},{"startTime":1431.456,"endTime":1435.236,"body":"all the ends of the entire protocol."},{"startTime":1435.716,"endTime":1439.496,"body":"When you're federated, you"},{"startTime":1435.716,"endTime":1439.496,"body":"don't control the clients."},{"startTime":1439.496,"endTime":1441.296,"body":"It's this open protocol."},{"startTime":1441.596,"endTime":1447.026,"body":"Ostensibly, someone has to control the"},{"startTime":1441.596,"endTime":1447.026,"body":"evolution of the protocol and as some of"},{"startTime":1447.026,"endTime":1452.996,"body":"us who pay attention to things in the IETF"},{"startTime":1447.026,"endTime":1452.996,"body":"or Bitcoin or any other open protocol."},{"startTime":1453.716,"endTime":1454.796,"body":"That's hard."},{"startTime":1454.796,"endTime":1459.806,"body":"It's a lot of dirty human stuff"},{"startTime":1454.796,"endTime":1459.806,"body":"about figuring out how to come to"},{"startTime":1459.806,"endTime":1463.466,"body":"consensus or who is controlling"},{"startTime":1459.806,"endTime":1463.466,"body":"the definition of the protocol."},{"startTime":1463.466,"endTime":1466.916,"body":"And then even if you have agreement"},{"startTime":1463.466,"endTime":1466.916,"body":"about what the protocol is, getting"},{"startTime":1466.916,"endTime":1472.256,"body":"all the clients to update, to speak the"},{"startTime":1466.916,"endTime":1472.256,"body":"protocol and have enough of them speak"},{"startTime":1472.256,"endTime":1476.096,"body":"the same version of the protocol so that"},{"startTime":1472.256,"endTime":1476.096,"body":"you get the guarantees that you need."},{"startTime":1476.276,"endTime":1479.936,"body":"And unfortunately, when you are trying to"},{"startTime":1476.276,"endTime":1479.936,"body":"do this in a security setting, if you're"},{"startTime":1479.936,"endTime":1485.336,"body":"trying to improve security, uh, with a"},{"startTime":1479.936,"endTime":1485.336,"body":"new version, um, you may have stragglers"},{"startTime":1485.336,"endTime":1486.506,"body":"that might be on the old version."},{"startTime":1486.506,"endTime":1489.326,"body":"You have to figure out what you wanna"},{"startTime":1486.506,"endTime":1489.326,"body":"do with people who haven't upgraded yet."},{"startTime":1489.326,"endTime":1491.876,"body":"And if you have to worry about downgrades,"},{"startTime":1489.326,"endTime":1491.876,"body":"if you're allowed to talk to the"},{"startTime":1491.876,"endTime":1495.386,"body":"old version at all, because of some"},{"startTime":1491.876,"endTime":1495.386,"body":"security issue, and on and on and on and"},{"startTime":1495.581,"endTime":1496.301,"body":"Yeah, this has"},{"startTime":1496.471,"endTime":1497.436,"body":"What, what?"},{"startTime":1497.531,"endTime":1499.541,"body":"think this has happened"},{"startTime":1497.531,"endTime":1499.541,"body":"three times with Matrix."},{"startTime":1499.541,"endTime":1502.841,"body":"Now the first with trying to"},{"startTime":1499.541,"endTime":1502.841,"body":"make Matrix default encrypted,"},{"startTime":1502.841,"endTime":1504.161,"body":"which it wasn't for a long time."},{"startTime":1504.161,"endTime":1507.851,"body":"For years, they had, you"},{"startTime":1504.161,"endTime":1507.851,"body":"know, a multi-party, you know,"},{"startTime":1507.851,"endTime":1510.911,"body":"end-to-end encrypted thing that"},{"startTime":1507.851,"endTime":1510.911,"body":"couldn't be enabled by default."},{"startTime":1510.911,"endTime":1514.331,"body":"'cause a huge percentage of their"},{"startTime":1510.911,"endTime":1514.331,"body":"clients simply didn't support it."},{"startTime":1514.631,"endTime":1515.171,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1515.201,"endTime":1518.201,"body":"And then when I think Kenny Patterson,"},{"startTime":1518.591,"endTime":1519.101,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1519.131,"endTime":1520.421,"body":"no, not Kenny Patterson."},{"startTime":1520.421,"endTime":1522.611,"body":"The neca, the Nebu Cas are, yeah."},{"startTime":1522.671,"endTime":1523.001,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1523.031,"endTime":1524.201,"body":"I, I apologize."},{"startTime":1524.291,"endTime":1524.621,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1524.678,"endTime":1525.731,"body":"I apologize to both of them."},{"startTime":1526.731,"endTime":1530.811,"body":"but like, when they totally wrecked"},{"startTime":1526.731,"endTime":1530.811,"body":"that protocol and then trying to get."},{"startTime":1531.201,"endTime":1535.701,"body":"Uh, matrix transitioned from that wrecked"},{"startTime":1531.201,"endTime":1535.701,"body":"protocol, the MLS, which they still"},{"startTime":1535.701,"endTime":1539.031,"body":"haven't accomplished, but they could have"},{"startTime":1535.701,"endTime":1539.031,"body":"reasonably quickly if they just controlled"},{"startTime":1539.031,"endTime":1542.481,"body":"all the endpoints and they're like in"},{"startTime":1539.031,"endTime":1542.481,"body":"the middle of a coordinated update for"},{"startTime":1542.511,"endTime":1544.251,"body":"cryptographic vulnerability right now."},{"startTime":1544.611,"endTime":1547.071,"body":"That's gonna take a while just"},{"startTime":1544.611,"endTime":1547.071,"body":"because they have a diversity"},{"startTime":1547.071,"endTime":1548.271,"body":"of server implementations."},{"startTime":1548.601,"endTime":1551.121,"body":"Is that, is that the one we've"},{"startTime":1548.601,"endTime":1551.121,"body":"talked, talked about in the past"},{"startTime":1551.121,"endTime":1554.481,"body":"and they just haven't been able to"},{"startTime":1551.121,"endTime":1554.481,"body":"push the updates to everybody yet?"},{"startTime":1554.481,"endTime":1555.801,"body":"Or, I forget."},{"startTime":1555.951,"endTime":1560.991,"body":"We keep, like, I think we, we keep meaning"},{"startTime":1555.951,"endTime":1560.991,"body":"to get, um, the people from that team on,"},{"startTime":1561.021,"endTime":1565.431,"body":"on the show and they should, like, I, I'm,"},{"startTime":1561.021,"endTime":1565.431,"body":"I'm rooting for them and it never sounds"},{"startTime":1565.431,"endTime":1567.231,"body":"like we are, but I am rooting for them"},{"startTime":1567.391,"endTime":1570.031,"body":"we had, we had the"},{"startTime":1567.391,"endTime":1570.031,"body":"Nebuchadnezzar focus on the show."},{"startTime":1570.111,"endTime":1572.841,"body":"we had the Nebuchadnezzar folks"},{"startTime":1570.111,"endTime":1572.841,"body":"on, but we haven't had Matrix on"},{"startTime":1572.841,"endTime":1574.971,"body":"to tell their side of the story"},{"startTime":1572.841,"endTime":1574.971,"body":"or what they're doing with it."},{"startTime":1575.181,"endTime":1579.111,"body":"And I think there was some ambiguity"},{"startTime":1575.181,"endTime":1579.111,"body":"about which of the neca, the NECA"},{"startTime":1579.111,"endTime":1583.131,"body":"vulnerabilities they were gonna address"},{"startTime":1579.111,"endTime":1583.131,"body":"directly and which they were gonna stop"},{"startTime":1583.131,"endTime":1586.401,"body":"gap and which things are addressed by MLS."},{"startTime":1586.711,"endTime":1587.401,"body":"Yeah, sure."},{"startTime":1587.401,"endTime":1591.622,"body":"It's decentralized and, and"},{"startTime":1587.401,"endTime":1591.622,"body":"federated, but like their proposal"},{"startTime":1591.622,"endTime":1596.239,"body":"for encrypted end-to-end encrypted"},{"startTime":1591.622,"endTime":1596.239,"body":"dms was just bad by itself."},{"startTime":1596.414,"endTime":1596.684,"body":"This is"},{"startTime":1597.419,"endTime":1597.869,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1598.454,"endTime":1598.694,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1598.694,"endTime":1604.364,"body":"So like they, um, this talk, like the"},{"startTime":1598.694,"endTime":1604.364,"body":"Noster talk at, uh, at Black Hat was also"},{"startTime":1605.204,"endTime":1608.924,"body":"I think like just a week ago, presented"},{"startTime":1605.204,"endTime":1608.924,"body":"at uh, IEEE, security and privacy."},{"startTime":1609.924,"endTime":1613.614,"body":"So, I mean, it's, it's out there"},{"startTime":1609.924,"endTime":1613.614,"body":"already, like some of the details on it."},{"startTime":1614.064,"endTime":1616.974,"body":"Um, and I'd like, I'd talk more"},{"startTime":1614.064,"endTime":1616.974,"body":"about it, but what I really wanna do"},{"startTime":1616.974,"endTime":1620.904,"body":"is just get somebody from the team"},{"startTime":1616.974,"endTime":1620.904,"body":"on the show and just go through it."},{"startTime":1621.904,"endTime":1622.804,"body":"The noster thing."},{"startTime":1623.434,"endTime":1623.494,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1623.494,"endTime":1623.884,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1624.794,"endTime":1630.492,"body":"So the thing at IEE, this is bigger than"},{"startTime":1624.794,"endTime":1630.492,"body":"just the end-to-end encrypted stuff."},{"startTime":1630.597,"endTime":1635.817,"body":"Oh yeah, no, it is like, it's, it's, it's"},{"startTime":1630.597,"endTime":1635.817,"body":"like when I reviewed this, my description"},{"startTime":1635.817,"endTime":1640.497,"body":"of this was, it, it looks almost exactly"},{"startTime":1635.817,"endTime":1640.497,"body":"like Nebu nazar, which is like a fractal"},{"startTime":1640.497,"endTime":1643.707,"body":"of things that could have gone wrong"},{"startTime":1640.497,"endTime":1643.707,"body":"with a, with like a complete ecosystem"},{"startTime":1643.707,"endTime":1645.237,"body":"of like a secure messaging system."},{"startTime":1645.477,"endTime":1648.057,"body":"So they, like, they found flaws"},{"startTime":1645.477,"endTime":1648.057,"body":"in almost every component of"},{"startTime":1648.057,"endTime":1650.487,"body":"that system and then tried to"},{"startTime":1648.057,"endTime":1650.487,"body":"leverage them as far as they could."},{"startTime":1650.817,"endTime":1654.207,"body":"It seems like this is the same"},{"startTime":1650.817,"endTime":1654.207,"body":"thing as that, like ecosystem."},{"startTime":1654.207,"endTime":1657.512,"body":"Yeah, the ecosystem wide, except"},{"startTime":1654.207,"endTime":1657.512,"body":"with a much dumber protocol"},{"startTime":1657.807,"endTime":1659.157,"body":"than what Matrix started with."},{"startTime":1659.397,"endTime":1660.537,"body":"Um, so"},{"startTime":1660.627,"endTime":1663.387,"body":"I mean, this talk is my happy place,"},{"startTime":1660.627,"endTime":1663.387,"body":"is how I would sum it up here."},{"startTime":1664.026,"endTime":1669.726,"body":"they had a design sketch of the"},{"startTime":1664.026,"endTime":1669.726,"body":"end-to-end encryption, uh, for messages."},{"startTime":1670.176,"endTime":1672.096,"body":"Uh, and I don't have it"},{"startTime":1670.176,"endTime":1672.096,"body":"in front of me anymore."},{"startTime":1672.456,"endTime":1678.486,"body":"Um, but yeah, the attack, yeah, we,"},{"startTime":1672.456,"endTime":1678.486,"body":"we, we sort of were touching on the,"},{"startTime":1678.486,"endTime":1685.926,"body":"the federated na nature of making be,"},{"startTime":1678.486,"endTime":1685.926,"body":"that being makes any secure end-to-end"},{"startTime":1685.926,"endTime":1692.166,"body":"encrypted or security based protocol,"},{"startTime":1685.926,"endTime":1692.166,"body":"much diff difficult to maintain and"},{"startTime":1692.646,"endTime":1697.596,"body":"maintain period control period slash"},{"startTime":1692.646,"endTime":1697.596,"body":"evolve or improve or fix vulnerabilities"},{"startTime":1697.596,"endTime":1700.116,"body":"or fix issues, uh, in general."},{"startTime":1700.206,"endTime":1704.016,"body":"Um, and this is not just, you"},{"startTime":1700.206,"endTime":1704.016,"body":"know, noster, but basically any"},{"startTime":1704.016,"endTime":1706.086,"body":"scenario that has federation, but."},{"startTime":1707.086,"endTime":1711.916,"body":"That does not necessarily mean that you"},{"startTime":1707.086,"endTime":1711.916,"body":"have a flawed end-to-end encrypted or"},{"startTime":1711.916,"endTime":1717.646,"body":"whatever encrypted, uh, direct messaging"},{"startTime":1711.916,"endTime":1717.646,"body":"design that allows you to forge en"},{"startTime":1717.676,"endTime":1724.276,"body":"quote, encrypted direct messages, um,"},{"startTime":1717.676,"endTime":1724.276,"body":"the subtle flaws in the design event"},{"startTime":1724.276,"endTime":1728.815,"body":"verification and link previews, allowed"},{"startTime":1724.276,"endTime":1728.815,"body":"to forge those messages, impersonate"},{"startTime":1728.815,"endTime":1733.015,"body":"user profiles and leak confidential"},{"startTime":1728.815,"endTime":1733.015,"body":"messages from quote encrypted dms."},{"startTime":1733.349,"endTime":1733.619,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":1733.619,"endTime":1734.279,"body":"I love this."},{"startTime":1735.129,"endTime":1739.269,"body":"Yeah, it's, it's, it's Euro s and p"},{"startTime":1735.129,"endTime":1739.269,"body":"and it's, uh, not in the prophecies,"},{"startTime":1739.269,"endTime":1740.529,"body":"practical attacks on Noster."},{"startTime":1740.999,"endTime":1742.529,"body":"I like, I like that name."},{"startTime":1743.529,"endTime":1746.194,"body":"Anyway, use signal is"},{"startTime":1743.529,"endTime":1746.194,"body":"partly what we're saying."},{"startTime":1746.897,"endTime":1747.257,"body":"yep."},{"startTime":1747.417,"endTime":1747.777,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1747.777,"endTime":1752.097,"body":"Go to awesome crypto attacks"},{"startTime":1747.777,"endTime":1752.097,"body":"where they in 2025 break a secure"},{"startTime":1752.097,"endTime":1753.987,"body":"messaging system using Wait for it."},{"startTime":1754.197,"endTime":1755.487,"body":"CVC malleability."},{"startTime":1756.338,"endTime":1756.878,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":1756.895,"endTime":1757.115,"body":"Uh."},{"startTime":1757.208,"endTime":1757.84,"body":"that's  true."},{"startTime":1758.2,"endTime":1758.53,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1759.53,"endTime":1760.79,"body":"Yeah, it's a good talk."},{"startTime":1760.94,"endTime":1763.88,"body":"Go, go, go check it out"},{"startTime":1760.94,"endTime":1763.88,"body":"at Black Hat when you're"},{"startTime":1763.94,"endTime":1767.78,"body":"And if you're listening and we"},{"startTime":1763.94,"endTime":1767.78,"body":"know you are listening to us Noster"},{"startTime":1767.78,"endTime":1770.99,"body":"Project, uh, people come on the show"},{"startTime":1767.78,"endTime":1770.99,"body":"and go through this talk with us."},{"startTime":1770.99,"endTime":1771.59,"body":"It looks really neat to."},{"startTime":1772.13,"endTime":1772.49,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1772.643,"endTime":1779.523,"body":"I'm very curious about proposals"},{"startTime":1772.643,"endTime":1779.523,"body":"for both how to do decent."},{"startTime":1780.153,"endTime":1785.763,"body":"Anytime someone is trying to bolt"},{"startTime":1780.153,"endTime":1785.763,"body":"into an encrypted dms or encrypted"},{"startTime":1785.763,"endTime":1790.953,"body":"dms onto a protocol, I'm very curious"},{"startTime":1785.763,"endTime":1790.953,"body":"about how it goes because it's tends"},{"startTime":1790.953,"endTime":1794.313,"body":"to be a little bit difficult to"},{"startTime":1790.953,"endTime":1794.313,"body":"figure out the way to do it Nicely."},{"startTime":1795.303,"endTime":1796.053,"body":"Period."},{"startTime":1796.143,"endTime":1801.393,"body":"The, the best end-to-end decrypted chats"},{"startTime":1796.143,"endTime":1801.393,"body":"are like that is the product first,"},{"startTime":1801.393,"endTime":1806.953,"body":"like Signal WhatsApp succeeded in that"},{"startTime":1801.393,"endTime":1806.953,"body":"they controlled all of their clients."},{"startTime":1806.953,"endTime":1810.133,"body":"They were originally unencrypted and"},{"startTime":1806.953,"endTime":1810.133,"body":"then they adopted the signal protocol and"},{"startTime":1810.133,"endTime":1812.623,"body":"they turned the entire billion plus user."},{"startTime":1813.523,"endTime":1816.253,"body":"Uh, to default end-to-end encrypted."},{"startTime":1816.613,"endTime":1819.733,"body":"And that's probably the most"},{"startTime":1816.613,"endTime":1819.733,"body":"successful thing that I've ever seen."},{"startTime":1819.883,"endTime":1826.033,"body":"But, but again, the messaging was"},{"startTime":1819.883,"endTime":1826.033,"body":"the product for noster, for Blue"},{"startTime":1826.033,"endTime":1829.333,"body":"Sky, for, uh, things like Mastodon."},{"startTime":1829.333,"endTime":1833.203,"body":"I've seen proposals of how to do"},{"startTime":1829.333,"endTime":1833.203,"body":"end to end encrypted, uh, dms on the"},{"startTime":1833.203,"endTime":1837.463,"body":"Mastodon protocol or, or whatever the"},{"startTime":1833.203,"endTime":1837.463,"body":"actual protocol is underneath Mastodon."},{"startTime":1837.853,"endTime":1843.823,"body":"Um, it's always a little tricky and"},{"startTime":1837.853,"endTime":1843.823,"body":"one, it's bolting it onto something"},{"startTime":1843.823,"endTime":1847.213,"body":"that, that's not, the design of"},{"startTime":1843.823,"endTime":1847.213,"body":"the system is about messaging"},{"startTime":1847.213,"endTime":1849.073,"body":"first, or private messaging first."},{"startTime":1849.463,"endTime":1852.973,"body":"Uh, but then second,"},{"startTime":1849.463,"endTime":1852.973,"body":"there's federation involved."},{"startTime":1853.153,"endTime":1857.383,"body":"So I'm always curious about how these"},{"startTime":1853.153,"endTime":1857.383,"body":"things work and evolve because it's"},{"startTime":1857.383,"endTime":1863.033,"body":"not easy and they, they vary a lot"},{"startTime":1857.383,"endTime":1863.033,"body":"about, you know, the, the constraints"},{"startTime":1863.033,"endTime":1865.313,"body":"that they're trying to operate under"},{"startTime":1863.033,"endTime":1865.313,"body":"and how they try to solve them."},{"startTime":1865.313,"endTime":1867.484,"body":"So anyway, okay."},{"startTime":1867.787,"endTime":1869.857,"body":"Let's talk about quantum"},{"startTime":1867.787,"endTime":1869.857,"body":"factoring because."},{"startTime":1870.857,"endTime":1875.657,"body":"Because this podcast is biased"},{"startTime":1870.857,"endTime":1875.657,"body":"towards, uh, quantum resistant"},{"startTime":1875.957,"endTime":1879.52,"body":"Before we do that, before that, real"},{"startTime":1875.957,"endTime":1879.52,"body":"quick, 'cause I was looking up the details"},{"startTime":1879.52,"endTime":1884.5,"body":"for this Noster thing on the I, the Euro"},{"startTime":1879.52,"endTime":1884.5,"body":"SMP thing and also on the Euro s. And p"},{"startTime":1884.5,"endTime":1886.21,"body":"program from like last week or whatever."},{"startTime":1886.54,"endTime":1889.72,"body":"There is a talk on attacking"},{"startTime":1886.54,"endTime":1889.72,"body":"and fixing the Android"},{"startTime":1889.72,"endTime":1891.16,"body":"protected confirmation protocol."},{"startTime":1891.54,"endTime":1891.76,"body":"Ooh."},{"startTime":1892.06,"endTime":1894.88,"body":"Um, yeah, so this is like bypassing"},{"startTime":1892.06,"endTime":1894.88,"body":"a guarantee that the, uh, the"},{"startTime":1894.88,"endTime":1896.47,"body":"trusted execution environment makes."},{"startTime":1896.83,"endTime":1898.96,"body":"Um, it's a formal methods talk."},{"startTime":1898.96,"endTime":1903.04,"body":"They did a formal proof, and then"},{"startTime":1898.96,"endTime":1903.04,"body":"from that the only formal methods"},{"startTime":1903.04,"endTime":1905.83,"body":"talks I'm interested in are the ones"},{"startTime":1903.04,"endTime":1905.83,"body":"where you formally model something"},{"startTime":1905.83,"endTime":1907.45,"body":"and then find actual vulnerabilities."},{"startTime":1907.75,"endTime":1908.44,"body":"And they did."},{"startTime":1908.68,"endTime":1912.52,"body":"So I don't have any more details than"},{"startTime":1908.68,"endTime":1912.52,"body":"what's in the program here, but I'm"},{"startTime":1912.52,"endTime":1916.66,"body":"guessing that somebody who knows somebody"},{"startTime":1912.52,"endTime":1916.66,"body":"that was in this, uh, you know, in"},{"startTime":1916.66,"endTime":1920.46,"body":"this research team at the University"},{"startTime":1916.66,"endTime":1920.46,"body":"of Edinburgh and then in RIA and a"},{"startTime":1920.46,"endTime":1923.55,"body":"couple of other French places that I"},{"startTime":1920.46,"endTime":1923.55,"body":"don't know, somebody knows one of these"},{"startTime":1923.55,"endTime":1925.05,"body":"people and we would love to talk to you."},{"startTime":1925.05,"endTime":1928.14,"body":"This is how we get all of our guests,"},{"startTime":1925.05,"endTime":1928.14,"body":"is I just do direct appeals to the"},{"startTime":1928.14,"endTime":1931.65,"body":"world, um, for research teams that"},{"startTime":1928.14,"endTime":1931.65,"body":"find cool crypto vulnerabilities"},{"startTime":1931.74,"endTime":1933.42,"body":"and, uh, this is one of them."},{"startTime":1933.42,"endTime":1937.68,"body":"So you should also come on the"},{"startTime":1933.42,"endTime":1937.68,"body":"show and explain to us how the a PC"},{"startTime":1937.68,"endTime":1939.21,"body":"protocol works and how you broke it."},{"startTime":1939.57,"endTime":1941.61,"body":"That also at IEE."},{"startTime":1941.985,"endTime":1944.805,"body":"Euro s and p pretty decent"},{"startTime":1941.985,"endTime":1944.805,"body":"crypto track this year."},{"startTime":1945.255,"endTime":1946.395,"body":"That's all I, that's all I got."},{"startTime":1946.92,"endTime":1948.12,"body":"uh, and"},{"startTime":1948.272,"endTime":1950.672,"body":"come to Vegas."},{"startTime":1951.18,"endTime":1953.231,"body":"yeah, come, come to Vegas."},{"startTime":1953.231,"endTime":1955.151,"body":"Come to SCW Pod Con."},{"startTime":1955.751,"endTime":1959.411,"body":"We, we have told, told several people,"},{"startTime":1955.751,"endTime":1959.411,"body":"like, they're like, ah, I wasn't"},{"startTime":1959.411,"endTime":1961.541,"body":"gonna do X, Y, z, I don't like this."},{"startTime":1961.541,"endTime":1965.981,"body":"Y was like, you could just go fly"},{"startTime":1961.541,"endTime":1965.981,"body":"in just for SCW Pod Con and then"},{"startTime":1966.034,"endTime":1967.864,"body":"you do not need a black hat ticket"},{"startTime":1967.931,"endTime":1968.861,"body":"No, you do not."},{"startTime":1968.861,"endTime":1973.691,"body":"This is not despite all of us having"},{"startTime":1968.861,"endTime":1973.691,"body":"helped review, uh, submissions"},{"startTime":1973.691,"endTime":1975.071,"body":"for the crypto track at Black Hat."},{"startTime":1975.251,"endTime":1976.991,"body":"This is not a Black Hat affiliated event."},{"startTime":1977.021,"endTime":1977.951,"body":"This is just us."},{"startTime":1978.341,"endTime":1980.021,"body":"You don't need any other tickets?"},{"startTime":1980.329,"endTime":1981.906,"body":"This is just what I do for fun."},{"startTime":1982.206,"endTime":1982.496,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1983.496,"endTime":1986.196,"body":"Um, quantum Factory"},{"startTime":1986.239,"endTime":1987.867,"body":"Let's talk about quantum factoring."},{"startTime":1987.889,"endTime":1990.559,"body":"Speaking of things I do for fun, um,"},{"startTime":1991.611,"endTime":1995.391,"body":"so there's this paper that went viral, um."},{"startTime":1995.451,"endTime":1999.021,"body":"It's called replication of quantum"},{"startTime":1995.451,"endTime":1999.021,"body":"factorization records with an eight"},{"startTime":1999.021,"endTime":2001.271,"body":"bit home computer and abacus and a dog,"},{"startTime":2001.699,"endTime":2002.119,"body":"mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2002.419,"endTime":2006.011,"body":"um, by everybody's favorite,"},{"startTime":2002.419,"endTime":2006.011,"body":"IETF commentary, Peter Guttman."},{"startTime":2006.721,"endTime":2011.071,"body":"and it makes the general point that"},{"startTime":2006.721,"endTime":2011.071,"body":"in terms of like actual progress"},{"startTime":2011.071,"endTime":2015.331,"body":"by, um, quantum computers factoring"},{"startTime":2011.071,"endTime":2015.331,"body":"things, we have so far managed to"},{"startTime":2015.391,"endTime":2019.831,"body":"not quite factor the number 35 when"},{"startTime":2015.391,"endTime":2019.831,"body":"given the factorization as an input."},{"startTime":2020.431,"endTime":2024.541,"body":"Um, we've done 15, 21 and 35 basically,"},{"startTime":2025.508,"endTime":2027.638,"body":"I mean Yes."},{"startTime":2027.758,"endTime":2031.118,"body":"And we've done that for a while now."},{"startTime":2031.598,"endTime":2038.288,"body":"And I will say, I think the best, the"},{"startTime":2031.598,"endTime":2038.288,"body":"biggest quote, physical qubit quantum"},{"startTime":2038.288,"endTime":2044.918,"body":"computers that we have so far are, I"},{"startTime":2038.288,"endTime":2044.918,"body":"think we have a hundred physical qubits"},{"startTime":2045.608,"endTime":2053.198,"body":"and recent results are showing that we"},{"startTime":2045.608,"endTime":2053.198,"body":"have a very, very reliable high fidelity,"},{"startTime":2053.198,"endTime":2056.678,"body":"highly error corrected, logical qubit."},{"startTime":2057.241,"endTime":2058.981,"body":"That we can't do operations on"},{"startTime":2059.138,"endTime":2059.288,"body":"out."},{"startTime":2059.348,"endTime":2060.368,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2060.571,"endTime":2061.441,"body":"like quantum memory."},{"startTime":2062.348,"endTime":2062.858,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2062.918,"endTime":2068.108,"body":"We, we basically, uh, a couple of,"},{"startTime":2062.918,"endTime":2068.108,"body":"a couple of months ago, the, the"},{"startTime":2068.138,"endTime":2073.628,"body":"Google Compute folks showed that you"},{"startTime":2068.138,"endTime":2073.628,"body":"can, in fact, with better algorithms"},{"startTime":2073.628,"endTime":2078.968,"body":"for error correction, uh, make a"},{"startTime":2073.628,"endTime":2078.968,"body":"more reliable qubit logical cubit."},{"startTime":2079.283,"endTime":2083.483,"body":"By adding more physical qubits to"},{"startTime":2079.283,"endTime":2083.483,"body":"do your quantum error correction."},{"startTime":2083.483,"endTime":2087.083,"body":"Previously this was theorized as possible,"},{"startTime":2083.483,"endTime":2087.083,"body":"but they kept throwing physical qubits"},{"startTime":2087.083,"endTime":2089.153,"body":"at it and they couldn't, they couldn't."},{"startTime":2089.153,"endTime":2092.723,"body":"The more it's supposed to be like this,"},{"startTime":2089.153,"endTime":2092.723,"body":"you know, nice scaling factor that"},{"startTime":2092.723,"endTime":2096.773,"body":"like, it's not just purely linear,"},{"startTime":2092.723,"endTime":2096.773,"body":"um, how many physical qubits you would"},{"startTime":2096.773,"endTime":2101.106,"body":"throw at your, uh, error correction"},{"startTime":2096.773,"endTime":2101.106,"body":"algorithm to give you, uh, a more"},{"startTime":2101.153,"endTime":2104.333,"body":"reliable, um, uh, logical qubit."},{"startTime":2104.333,"endTime":2109.943,"body":"Because in terms of reliability, it's"},{"startTime":2104.333,"endTime":2109.943,"body":"literally, the way that quantum algorithms"},{"startTime":2109.943,"endTime":2114.503,"body":"work is by taking your logical qubits and"},{"startTime":2109.943,"endTime":2114.503,"body":"you like put them together in a quantum"},{"startTime":2114.503,"endTime":2118.973,"body":"circuit and you do a little thing, you do"},{"startTime":2114.503,"endTime":2118.973,"body":"a little twiddle, and then you reconfigure"},{"startTime":2118.973,"endTime":2122.063,"body":"them into another quantum circuit and"},{"startTime":2118.973,"endTime":2122.063,"body":"then you, that's the next transition,"},{"startTime":2122.063,"endTime":2123.563,"body":"and then another, and another another."},{"startTime":2124.223,"endTime":2130.673,"body":"And if they degrade over time,"},{"startTime":2124.223,"endTime":2130.673,"body":"you can't do good algorithmic"},{"startTime":2130.913,"endTime":2132.083,"body":"computations with them."},{"startTime":2132.173,"endTime":2137.033,"body":"So you need a high fidelity,"},{"startTime":2132.173,"endTime":2137.033,"body":"uh, reliable, logical qubit."},{"startTime":2137.453,"endTime":2138.323,"body":"We have one."},{"startTime":2138.683,"endTime":2141.083,"body":"We finally have one very"},{"startTime":2138.683,"endTime":2141.083,"body":"good, reliable qubit."},{"startTime":2141.143,"endTime":2145.013,"body":"I think it's like 10 to the negative six"},{"startTime":2141.143,"endTime":2145.013,"body":"or whatever errors or something like that."},{"startTime":2145.013,"endTime":2147.833,"body":"And they're trying to get 10 to the"},{"startTime":2145.013,"endTime":2147.833,"body":"negative nine or whatever it is."},{"startTime":2147.833,"endTime":2150.413,"body":"They have it, they have something"},{"startTime":2147.833,"endTime":2150.413,"body":"very good and they think"},{"startTime":2150.413,"endTime":2151.733,"body":"they can make it even better."},{"startTime":2152.033,"endTime":2157.433,"body":"But still it's just the one, it can't"},{"startTime":2152.033,"endTime":2157.433,"body":"do much logic, quantum or digital"},{"startTime":2157.433,"endTime":2160.643,"body":"logic, uh, with just the, just the one."},{"startTime":2161.393,"endTime":2167.693,"body":"So all of our quantum computers that"},{"startTime":2161.393,"endTime":2167.693,"body":"we have so far are driving the field"},{"startTime":2167.723,"endTime":2172.973,"body":"of quantum information and quantum"},{"startTime":2167.723,"endTime":2172.973,"body":"computing forward, but they've still"},{"startTime":2172.973,"endTime":2179.223,"body":"not shown any actual improvements on"},{"startTime":2172.973,"endTime":2179.223,"body":"being able to execute Shor's algorithm,"},{"startTime":2179.783,"endTime":2185.723,"body":"the big threat against, uh, classical"},{"startTime":2179.783,"endTime":2185.723,"body":"asymmetric cryptography because"},{"startTime":2185.723,"endTime":2188.183,"body":"they've all just been, you know, small."},{"startTime":2188.243,"endTime":2191.933,"body":"And so the, the best, the best"},{"startTime":2188.243,"endTime":2191.933,"body":"that the quantum computers can"},{"startTime":2191.933,"endTime":2194.393,"body":"do has basically been the same."},{"startTime":2194.963,"endTime":2200.723,"body":"Or worse as the best that"},{"startTime":2194.963,"endTime":2200.723,"body":"modern digital computers can do."},{"startTime":2201.263,"endTime":2206.363,"body":"And this paper is just sort of like"},{"startTime":2201.263,"endTime":2206.363,"body":"making ano, making a point of that again"},{"startTime":2207.113,"endTime":2215.158,"body":"by using an eight bit home computer,"},{"startTime":2207.113,"endTime":2215.158,"body":"an abacus and a dog to factor 35."},{"startTime":2215.581,"endTime":2221.471,"body":"Yeah, I think that there's like a"},{"startTime":2215.581,"endTime":2221.471,"body":"valid argument about like in terms of"},{"startTime":2221.471,"endTime":2225.341,"body":"prioritization, like is the security"},{"startTime":2221.471,"endTime":2225.341,"body":"problem that you're really concerned with,"},{"startTime":2225.341,"endTime":2231.401,"body":"like the fact that a quantum computer like"},{"startTime":2225.341,"endTime":2231.401,"body":"might exist in the future versus say, um."},{"startTime":2232.401,"endTime":2238.701,"body":"Like, can I patch vulnerable versions of"},{"startTime":2232.401,"endTime":2238.701,"body":"Apache, whatever that like, you know, the"},{"startTime":2238.701,"endTime":2242.691,"body":"credit report contact, I wanna say Equifax"},{"startTime":2238.701,"endTime":2242.691,"body":"had like an unpatched, Apache something,"},{"startTime":2242.691,"endTime":2246.561,"body":"something, and that's why like everybody"},{"startTime":2242.691,"endTime":2246.561,"body":"in the USS social security number leaked."},{"startTime":2247.161,"endTime":2252.746,"body":"Um, but like, like it's just not,"},{"startTime":2247.161,"endTime":2252.746,"body":"it shouldn't be high on the priority"},{"startTime":2252.746,"endTime":2254.276,"body":"list for most organizations."},{"startTime":2254.351,"endTime":2260.021,"body":"I was at like a post quantum thing in"},{"startTime":2254.351,"endTime":2260.021,"body":"Maryland a few months back, and Rob Joyce,"},{"startTime":2260.021,"endTime":2267.591,"body":"former head of, uh, of NSA Tao and maybe"},{"startTime":2260.021,"endTime":2267.591,"body":"NSA generally, um, was there, and I did"},{"startTime":2267.591,"endTime":2270.801,"body":"talk to him and I was like, look, who"},{"startTime":2267.591,"endTime":2270.801,"body":"should, like, obviously the US government"},{"startTime":2270.801,"endTime":2273.741,"body":"cares about this, but like, who should."},{"startTime":2274.731,"endTime":2278.001,"body":"Who should actually care about this,"},{"startTime":2274.731,"endTime":2278.001,"body":"like, besides the US government."},{"startTime":2278.061,"endTime":2283.011,"body":"And his comment was basically anything"},{"startTime":2278.061,"endTime":2283.011,"body":"that has to deal with national security"},{"startTime":2283.011,"endTime":2287.811,"body":"systems, um, and anyone who's already"},{"startTime":2283.011,"endTime":2287.811,"body":"worried about state level attackers should"},{"startTime":2287.811,"endTime":2289.101,"body":"probably worry  about this."},{"startTime":2289.551,"endTime":2291.681,"body":"And I think that's like a"},{"startTime":2289.551,"endTime":2291.681,"body":"decent way of looking at it."},{"startTime":2291.681,"endTime":2295.671,"body":"Like I, again, I'm not sure that I"},{"startTime":2291.681,"endTime":2295.671,"body":"would like even rank it above like,"},{"startTime":2296.181,"endTime":2300.256,"body":"you know, um, getting exploited"},{"startTime":2296.181,"endTime":2300.256,"body":"by O days or something like that."},{"startTime":2301.066,"endTime":2305.266,"body":"But at the same time, like, I don't"},{"startTime":2301.066,"endTime":2305.266,"body":"know, the US government has decided"},{"startTime":2305.266,"endTime":2308.236,"body":"isn't important and so the reason that"},{"startTime":2305.266,"endTime":2308.236,"body":"like all of this work is happening is"},{"startTime":2308.236,"endTime":2312.836,"body":"because the US government has decided"},{"startTime":2308.236,"endTime":2312.836,"body":"that it needed to happen and like you,"},{"startTime":2312.836,"endTime":2318.416,"body":"whether or not like it we ever be,"},{"startTime":2312.836,"endTime":2318.416,"body":"are able to factor 35 and outperform"},{"startTime":2318.416,"endTime":2319.976,"body":"Peter Gutman's, Abacus and Dog."},{"startTime":2320.064,"endTime":2320.936,"body":"Like, I don't know."},{"startTime":2320.936,"endTime":2324.086,"body":"It kind of, it doesn't matter"},{"startTime":2320.936,"endTime":2324.086,"body":"because like the constraints that"},{"startTime":2324.086,"endTime":2325.331,"body":"like we're working with as well."},{"startTime":2326.171,"endTime":2329.411,"body":"The US government has decided that this"},{"startTime":2326.171,"endTime":2329.411,"body":"is important for this class of systems."},{"startTime":2329.471,"endTime":2332.651,"body":"Um, then, then, you know, the"},{"startTime":2329.471,"endTime":2332.651,"body":"stuff that like Deirdre and I work"},{"startTime":2332.651,"endTime":2336.341,"body":"on for work are like technology"},{"startTime":2332.651,"endTime":2336.341,"body":"that is used in those contexts."},{"startTime":2336.341,"endTime":2339.281,"body":"And so we have requirements around"},{"startTime":2336.341,"endTime":2339.281,"body":"it and we have to go solve them."},{"startTime":2339.913,"endTime":2343.571,"body":"Um, is that like a full employment"},{"startTime":2339.913,"endTime":2343.571,"body":"program for cryptographers?"},{"startTime":2343.571,"endTime":2344.291,"body":"Sort of, maybe."},{"startTime":2344.291,"endTime":2348.381,"body":"I don't know, but like  I didn't"},{"startTime":2344.291,"endTime":2348.381,"body":"go to the government and advocate"},{"startTime":2348.381,"endTime":2351.921,"body":"for this and you know, I probably"},{"startTime":2348.381,"endTime":2351.921,"body":"wouldn't have like, pushed it as the"},{"startTime":2351.921,"endTime":2353.361,"body":"highest priority thing, but like."},{"startTime":2354.321,"endTime":2358.971,"body":"Arguing about, you know, we all know"},{"startTime":2354.321,"endTime":2358.971,"body":"it's not the most practical security,"},{"startTime":2359.271,"endTime":2363.17,"body":"uh, risk right now, but like, that,"},{"startTime":2359.271,"endTime":2363.17,"body":"that's not what is pushing it."},{"startTime":2363.231,"endTime":2367.041,"body":"Like what's pushing it is we were told"},{"startTime":2363.231,"endTime":2367.041,"body":"we have to solve it, so we're solving"},{"startTime":2367.041,"endTime":2367.101,"body":"it."},{"startTime":2367.964,"endTime":2372.434,"body":"And I, I would make the argument of"},{"startTime":2367.964,"endTime":2372.434,"body":"like, yes, if you want to be very,"},{"startTime":2373.304,"endTime":2378.314,"body":"very kind of practical minded of like,"},{"startTime":2373.304,"endTime":2378.314,"body":"who right now or who in the next five,"},{"startTime":2378.404,"endTime":2384.224,"body":"10 years has to factor in this sort"},{"startTime":2378.404,"endTime":2384.224,"body":"of threat into their threat model."},{"startTime":2384.284,"endTime":2384.734,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2384.734,"endTime":2388.244,"body":"You state level, you know, national"},{"startTime":2384.734,"endTime":2388.244,"body":"government systems, national security"},{"startTime":2388.349,"endTime":2392.624,"body":"systems, and anyone who, uh, has to"},{"startTime":2388.349,"endTime":2392.624,"body":"worry about state level adversaries."},{"startTime":2392.654,"endTime":2392.984,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2393.344,"endTime":2394.574,"body":"Uh, nation state attackers."},{"startTime":2394.604,"endTime":2394.994,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2394.994,"endTime":2398.654,"body":"And we can think of, you know,"},{"startTime":2394.994,"endTime":2398.654,"body":"the, the type of organizations"},{"startTime":2398.894,"endTime":2400.124,"body":"that can fit into those buckets."},{"startTime":2400.124,"endTime":2400.454,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":2400.454,"endTime":2400.724,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":2400.754,"endTime":2401.114,"body":"Alright."},{"startTime":2401.114,"endTime":2401.414,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2402.134,"endTime":2408.674,"body":"I am also aware of how, uh, because"},{"startTime":2402.134,"endTime":2408.674,"body":"of the compute capability and the kind"},{"startTime":2408.674,"endTime":2414.884,"body":"of shared resources, uh, projects,"},{"startTime":2408.674,"endTime":2414.884,"body":"protocols, uh, that everyone uses, um,"},{"startTime":2414.884,"endTime":2418.514,"body":"it's not unheard of for someone to start."},{"startTime":2418.994,"endTime":2424.964,"body":"A business or start a project or"},{"startTime":2418.994,"endTime":2424.964,"body":"something like that on AWS, Google"},{"startTime":2424.964,"endTime":2428.804,"body":"Compute, Azure, whatever, whatever"},{"startTime":2424.964,"endTime":2428.804,"body":"your compute platform may be."},{"startTime":2429.284,"endTime":2433.484,"body":"And then at some point you become big"},{"startTime":2429.284,"endTime":2433.484,"body":"enough and important enough that someone"},{"startTime":2433.484,"endTime":2438.224,"body":"starts to come after you because you"},{"startTime":2433.484,"endTime":2438.224,"body":"be, became a victim of your own success."},{"startTime":2438.254,"endTime":2442.964,"body":"And then all of a sudden you didn't"},{"startTime":2438.254,"endTime":2442.964,"body":"think, I, I just do, you know, this"},{"startTime":2442.964,"endTime":2446.564,"body":"little app, this little service,"},{"startTime":2442.964,"endTime":2446.564,"body":"no one really cares about me."},{"startTime":2446.564,"endTime":2450.224,"body":"And then five to 10 years later,"},{"startTime":2446.564,"endTime":2450.224,"body":"no, someone big, someone cares"},{"startTime":2450.224,"endTime":2451.664,"body":"about you for some reason."},{"startTime":2451.724,"endTime":2454.874,"body":"And they happen to have, uh, access"},{"startTime":2451.724,"endTime":2454.874,"body":"to a cryptographically relevant"},{"startTime":2454.904,"endTime":2456.374,"body":"quantum computer in their back pocket."},{"startTime":2456.704,"endTime":2460.934,"body":"But you didn't think about that when"},{"startTime":2456.704,"endTime":2460.934,"body":"you started building all of your shit."},{"startTime":2461.934,"endTime":2467.304,"body":"If we have good, secure cryptographic"},{"startTime":2461.934,"endTime":2467.304,"body":"defaults into our compute infrastructure,"},{"startTime":2467.304,"endTime":2469.164,"body":"into our protocols, into our."},{"startTime":2469.569,"endTime":2473.499,"body":"Uh, software packages, uh, that"},{"startTime":2469.569,"endTime":2473.499,"body":"everyone seems to kind of rely on."},{"startTime":2473.889,"endTime":2475.689,"body":"You don't have to worry about that."},{"startTime":2476.109,"endTime":2480.609,"body":"Um, and if they're efficient enough,"},{"startTime":2476.109,"endTime":2480.609,"body":"uh, and fast enough, then you"},{"startTime":2480.609,"endTime":2482.049,"body":"shouldn't even have to think about it."},{"startTime":2482.049,"endTime":2485.859,"body":"It's not even like, ah, I could use"},{"startTime":2482.049,"endTime":2485.859,"body":"this because it's available to me."},{"startTime":2486.129,"endTime":2486.969,"body":"It's a little too big."},{"startTime":2486.969,"endTime":2487.869,"body":"It's a little too slow."},{"startTime":2487.869,"endTime":2489.819,"body":"Fuck it, I'm gonna go use the faster one."},{"startTime":2490.119,"endTime":2492.999,"body":"There will be, you know, scenarios"},{"startTime":2490.119,"endTime":2492.999,"body":"depending on the constraints"},{"startTime":2493.299,"endTime":2496.179,"body":"of your systems and your"},{"startTime":2493.299,"endTime":2496.179,"body":"users that you may pick them."},{"startTime":2496.884,"endTime":2500.454,"body":"But if it's kind of like a tossup,"},{"startTime":2496.884,"endTime":2500.454,"body":"like yeah, sure this is fine."},{"startTime":2500.694,"endTime":2502.944,"body":"I can use hybrid key"},{"startTime":2500.694,"endTime":2502.944,"body":"agreement and it's fine."},{"startTime":2503.154,"endTime":2507.204,"body":"Or I can use like the, you know, the base"},{"startTime":2503.154,"endTime":2507.204,"body":"level post quantum signature that's now"},{"startTime":2507.204,"endTime":2511.794,"body":"being offered by my package or my compute,"},{"startTime":2507.204,"endTime":2511.794,"body":"or my key management service or my"},{"startTime":2511.794,"endTime":2513.534,"body":"certificate authority or whatever it is."},{"startTime":2513.804,"endTime":2515.664,"body":"You can just be like,"},{"startTime":2513.804,"endTime":2515.664,"body":"yeah, sure that works fine."},{"startTime":2515.724,"endTime":2519.144,"body":"And you, you don't think about it and"},{"startTime":2515.724,"endTime":2519.144,"body":"you don't have to worry about the day"},{"startTime":2519.144,"endTime":2522.924,"body":"where you know, you become the victim"},{"startTime":2519.144,"endTime":2522.924,"body":"of your own success and become targeted."},{"startTime":2523.254,"endTime":2527.724,"body":"That's kind of like the world I'm looking"},{"startTime":2523.254,"endTime":2527.724,"body":"towards is if hopefully we can just"},{"startTime":2527.724,"endTime":2530.664,"body":"sort of be in a world where you don't"},{"startTime":2527.724,"endTime":2530.664,"body":"even have to think about this sort of"},{"startTime":2530.664,"endTime":2535.644,"body":"thing and whether this is in your threat"},{"startTime":2530.664,"endTime":2535.644,"body":"model, because there may be totally,"},{"startTime":2536.034,"endTime":2539.124,"body":"like maybe today it's not in your threat"},{"startTime":2536.034,"endTime":2539.124,"body":"model, but there's a possibility that"},{"startTime":2539.124,"endTime":2543.504,"body":"it will be become part of your threat"},{"startTime":2539.124,"endTime":2543.504,"body":"model and it'll be a lot harder for"},{"startTime":2543.504,"endTime":2546.234,"body":"you to mitigate it when it becomes"},{"startTime":2543.504,"endTime":2546.234,"body":"to that point and you might already"},{"startTime":2546.234,"endTime":2547.914,"body":"be vulnerable to that sort of thing."},{"startTime":2547.944,"endTime":2548.274,"body":"So."},{"startTime":2549.274,"endTime":2551.824,"body":"Don't worry about factoring by a dog."},{"startTime":2553.876,"endTime":2554.356,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2555.356,"endTime":2555.716,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2555.716,"endTime":2557.907,"body":"I mean, complaining to the"},{"startTime":2555.716,"endTime":2557.907,"body":"IETF is like not gonna."},{"startTime":2558.821,"endTime":2559.541,"body":"Make a difference here."},{"startTime":2559.601,"endTime":2560.021,"body":"I don't think,"},{"startTime":2560.849,"endTime":2561.139,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2561.454,"endTime":2563.324,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2563.624,"endTime":2567.974,"body":"Well, we're trying at the ITF I'm"},{"startTime":2563.624,"endTime":2567.974,"body":"actually quite pleased because, uh, I"},{"startTime":2567.974,"endTime":2573.104,"body":"was complaining that we were moving too"},{"startTime":2567.974,"endTime":2573.104,"body":"slow, but it seems like people are moving,"},{"startTime":2573.134,"endTime":2575.354,"body":"so maybe we aren't moving too slow."},{"startTime":2576.014,"endTime":2578.384,"body":"But we'll see about that in the ITF."},{"startTime":2578.51,"endTime":2583.94,"body":"Just to, to tie up, not on"},{"startTime":2578.51,"endTime":2583.94,"body":"that, that paper, TLDR, yes."},{"startTime":2583.94,"endTime":2590.18,"body":"You can outperform or equally perform"},{"startTime":2583.94,"endTime":2590.18,"body":"factorization of known small numbers,"},{"startTime":2590.18,"endTime":2593.6,"body":"the same as the best quantum computers"},{"startTime":2590.18,"endTime":2593.6,"body":"we have because they're small numbers."},{"startTime":2593.892,"endTime":2598.842,"body":"When the numbers get very, very big"},{"startTime":2593.892,"endTime":2598.842,"body":"and we have an actual quantum, quantum"},{"startTime":2599.112,"endTime":2603.672,"body":"cryptographically relevant quantum"},{"startTime":2599.112,"endTime":2603.672,"body":"computer, uh, I'm pretty sure it's gonna"},{"startTime":2603.672,"endTime":2608.412,"body":"be when, but like, you know, is it gonna"},{"startTime":2603.672,"endTime":2608.412,"body":"be in time for the targets or you know,"},{"startTime":2608.412,"endTime":2612.042,"body":"is it gonna be this kind of, you know,"},{"startTime":2608.412,"endTime":2612.042,"body":"this catching up race forever and ever."},{"startTime":2612.072,"endTime":2612.582,"body":"We'll see."},{"startTime":2613.062,"endTime":2616.992,"body":"Um, but when the numbers get"},{"startTime":2613.062,"endTime":2616.992,"body":"cryptographically big, that"},{"startTime":2616.992,"endTime":2619.092,"body":"is where these algorithms are."},{"startTime":2619.542,"endTime":2622.752,"body":"That's where the thread is not"},{"startTime":2619.542,"endTime":2622.752,"body":"when the numbers are this small."},{"startTime":2622.782,"endTime":2627.102,"body":"It's not sure's algorithm as a test"},{"startTime":2622.782,"endTime":2627.102,"body":"for like, are the quantum computers"},{"startTime":2627.102,"endTime":2629.382,"body":"like, good yet for small numbers?"},{"startTime":2629.412,"endTime":2630.822,"body":"Is that's not the benchmark."},{"startTime":2631.302,"endTime":2635.412,"body":"It's not a relevant benchmark for"},{"startTime":2631.302,"endTime":2635.412,"body":"like seeing like, are we there yet?"},{"startTime":2635.412,"endTime":2636.012,"body":"Are we there yet?"},{"startTime":2636.042,"endTime":2636.762,"body":"Are we there yet?"},{"startTime":2636.972,"endTime":2639.012,"body":"No, it's gonna be like a stepwise."},{"startTime":2639.012,"endTime":2642.942,"body":"It's gonna be where are these two"},{"startTime":2639.012,"endTime":2642.942,"body":"different like, uh, growth curves?"},{"startTime":2642.942,"endTime":2646.662,"body":"Like, you know, it's gonna be the non"},{"startTime":2642.942,"endTime":2646.662,"body":"quantum for a long, long time, and"},{"startTime":2646.662,"endTime":2647.892,"body":"then all of a sudden there's this like."},{"startTime":2648.372,"endTime":2651.822,"body":"Boundary crossing thing where the quantum"},{"startTime":2648.372,"endTime":2651.822,"body":"computer just completely blows it away."},{"startTime":2651.822,"endTime":2654.642,"body":"And the, the other classical"},{"startTime":2651.822,"endTime":2654.642,"body":"digital computers are just,"},{"startTime":2654.642,"endTime":2655.782,"body":"they just cannot keep up."},{"startTime":2655.782,"endTime":2658.572,"body":"And that's when the computers"},{"startTime":2655.782,"endTime":2658.572,"body":"are large enough to attack"},{"startTime":2658.572,"endTime":2661.542,"body":"these large cryptographically"},{"startTime":2658.572,"endTime":2661.542,"body":"relevant parameter sizes."},{"startTime":2661.542,"endTime":2666.162,"body":"So, very good troll Peter Guttman."},{"startTime":2667.162,"endTime":2671.542,"body":"I am sure we'll have some sort of"},{"startTime":2667.162,"endTime":2671.542,"body":"long-term support for classical computers."},{"startTime":2671.602,"endTime":2672.022,"body":"Anyway,"},{"startTime":2672.495,"endTime":2675.285,"body":"Um, we absolutely will."},{"startTime":2675.375,"endTime":2681.135,"body":"And as someone reminded me the other"},{"startTime":2675.375,"endTime":2681.135,"body":"day, um, the classical computers are key"},{"startTime":2681.135,"endTime":2683.985,"body":"parts of making the quantum computers go."},{"startTime":2684.225,"endTime":2687.615,"body":"Like, how do you think they"},{"startTime":2684.225,"endTime":2687.615,"body":"run those very important, uh,"},{"startTime":2687.615,"endTime":2689.205,"body":"error correcting algorithms?"},{"startTime":2689.475,"endTime":2693.435,"body":"They're run on the classical"},{"startTime":2689.475,"endTime":2693.435,"body":"computers and it's very important"},{"startTime":2693.525,"endTime":2698.295,"body":"that those classical computers have"},{"startTime":2693.525,"endTime":2698.295,"body":"all the good computer software and"},{"startTime":2698.295,"endTime":2700.125,"body":"firmware and infrastructure security."},{"startTime":2700.59,"endTime":2705.667,"body":"Built into them because we don't want the"},{"startTime":2700.59,"endTime":2705.667,"body":"quantum computers to get honed because"},{"startTime":2705.667,"endTime":2710.167,"body":"the classical computers used to make the"},{"startTime":2705.667,"endTime":2710.167,"body":"quantum computers compute is just like"},{"startTime":2710.707,"endTime":2714.787,"body":"open to crazy vulnerabilities because"},{"startTime":2710.707,"endTime":2714.787,"body":"I've heard some shit and I don't like it."},{"startTime":2714.787,"endTime":2717.337,"body":"So just make sure you're"},{"startTime":2714.787,"endTime":2717.337,"body":"doing good security for your"},{"startTime":2717.337,"endTime":2718.957,"body":"quantum computers as well."},{"startTime":2718.957,"endTime":2719.017,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2719.262,"endTime":2723.342,"body":"we will add the, the, the YouTube"},{"startTime":2719.262,"endTime":2723.342,"body":"channel three Blue One Brown, which has"},{"startTime":2723.342,"endTime":2726.822,"body":"a bunch of like math visualizations,"},{"startTime":2723.342,"endTime":2726.822,"body":"um, like a couple weeks ago or a"},{"startTime":2726.822,"endTime":2731.592,"body":"month ago, did a very, very good video"},{"startTime":2726.822,"endTime":2731.592,"body":"about, um, how Shores algorithm works."},{"startTime":2731.592,"endTime":2734.232,"body":"And on a follow up video about how"},{"startTime":2731.592,"endTime":2734.232,"body":"he lied about how Shores algorithm"},{"startTime":2734.232,"endTime":2737.352,"body":"works with more details, which is"},{"startTime":2734.232,"endTime":2737.352,"body":"like a classic math thing, right?"},{"startTime":2737.712,"endTime":2742.692,"body":"Um, and so I highly recommend everyone"},{"startTime":2737.712,"endTime":2742.692,"body":"go watch it because, um, he's very."},{"startTime":2743.122,"endTime":2747.352,"body":"I'm forgetting the person's name, but"},{"startTime":2743.122,"endTime":2747.352,"body":"he's very, very good math communicator"},{"startTime":2747.352,"endTime":2752.212,"body":"and he wrote his own like visualization"},{"startTime":2747.352,"endTime":2752.212,"body":"library basically to build, um, all"},{"startTime":2752.212,"endTime":2753.862,"body":"of these math visualization videos."},{"startTime":2753.862,"endTime":2754.192,"body":"He does."},{"startTime":2754.192,"endTime":2754.372,"body":"He has"},{"startTime":2754.475,"endTime":2758.105,"body":"Which is now every, it used to be"},{"startTime":2754.475,"endTime":2758.105,"body":"every math visualization or every"},{"startTime":2758.105,"endTime":2762.035,"body":"math lecture video on YouTube was"},{"startTime":2758.105,"endTime":2762.035,"body":"done in the style of Ca Khan Academy."},{"startTime":2762.695,"endTime":2765.875,"body":"Like all with people like drawing and this"},{"startTime":2762.695,"endTime":2765.875,"body":"little like neon things on a black screen."},{"startTime":2765.995,"endTime":2769.835,"body":"And now every fucking math, you know,"},{"startTime":2765.995,"endTime":2769.835,"body":"video anywhere on YouTube is now"},{"startTime":2769.835,"endTime":2771.665,"body":"done in three Blue, one Brown style."},{"startTime":2772.115,"endTime":2774.065,"body":"'cause you open source that"},{"startTime":2772.115,"endTime":2774.065,"body":"library and made a video"},{"startTime":2774.37,"endTime":2774.59,"body":"Oh,"},{"startTime":2774.635,"endTime":2774.89,"body":"do it."},{"startTime":2775.89,"endTime":2777.83,"body":"though, I, well, three boot, one Brown."},{"startTime":2777.92,"endTime":2780.83,"body":"Gotta start working, uh,"},{"startTime":2777.92,"endTime":2780.83,"body":"for Khan Academy, so."},{"startTime":2780.898,"endTime":2781.858,"body":"Oh, for fuck's sake,"},{"startTime":2784.262,"endTime":2784.552,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2784.557,"endTime":2787.217,"body":"We, we have to, oh, Grover's."},{"startTime":2787.217,"endTime":2787.757,"body":"He's okay."},{"startTime":2787.757,"endTime":2788.927,"body":"I was Googling shore."},{"startTime":2789.107,"endTime":2790.277,"body":"He did Grover's algorithm."},{"startTime":2790.314,"endTime":2790.794,"body":"yeah, sorry."},{"startTime":2790.817,"endTime":2791.834,"body":"He did a Grover's algorithm."},{"startTime":2791.934,"endTime":2792.154,"body":"Not"},{"startTime":2792.227,"endTime":2792.827,"body":"This is cool."},{"startTime":2792.857,"endTime":2793.847,"body":"I gotta watch this."},{"startTime":2793.892,"endTime":2798.092,"body":"am I the only person on the internet who"},{"startTime":2793.892,"endTime":2798.092,"body":"was not helped at all with linear algebra"},{"startTime":2798.122,"endTime":2799.622,"body":"by the three blue one Brown videos?"},{"startTime":2799.802,"endTime":2801.422,"body":"Like it's life changing for people."},{"startTime":2801.422,"endTime":2802.262,"body":"And I, I watch that."},{"startTime":2802.322,"endTime":2803.042,"body":"I like them fine."},{"startTime":2803.042,"endTime":2806.222,"body":"They like their entertainment"},{"startTime":2803.042,"endTime":2806.222,"body":"content for me, but like I come out"},{"startTime":2806.222,"endTime":2809.372,"body":"of that with no greater facility"},{"startTime":2806.222,"endTime":2809.372,"body":"for actually doing anything with"},{"startTime":2809.372,"endTime":2810.602,"body":"like iGen vectors or whatever."},{"startTime":2810.924,"endTime":2813.684,"body":"I took linear algebra"},{"startTime":2810.924,"endTime":2813.684,"body":"before these videos existed"},{"startTime":2814.457,"endTime":2819.077,"body":"this, I took linear algebra in 2006,"},{"startTime":2814.457,"endTime":2819.077,"body":"so I I, I had a very good lecture"},{"startTime":2819.107,"endTime":2823.397,"body":"and he wrote the book that he gave"},{"startTime":2819.107,"endTime":2823.397,"body":"to us and I think that's the best"},{"startTime":2823.397,"endTime":2824.717,"body":"I've ever done in a math class."},{"startTime":2824.717,"endTime":2826.547,"body":"At MIT was my linear algebra class,"},{"startTime":2826.892,"endTime":2829.652,"body":"I have to, I, I have to actually"},{"startTime":2826.892,"endTime":2829.652,"body":"do problems to learn anything,"},{"startTime":2829.722,"endTime":2830.21,"body":"Alright."},{"startTime":2830.582,"endTime":2830.942,"body":"although"},{"startTime":2831.084,"endTime":2832.547,"body":"it this one string"},{"startTime":2832.847,"endTime":2833.507,"body":"that's mine."},{"startTime":2833.747,"endTime":2834.347,"body":"That's mine."},{"startTime":2834.647,"endTime":2834.857,"body":"What"},{"startTime":2834.894,"endTime":2835.884,"body":"were taught by string?"},{"startTime":2835.997,"endTime":2836.207,"body":"I"},{"startTime":2836.237,"endTime":2837.077,"body":"taught by Strang?"},{"startTime":2837.137,"endTime":2838.307,"body":"He was lovely."},{"startTime":2838.307,"endTime":2839.807,"body":"He was an excellent teacher."},{"startTime":2839.807,"endTime":2841.277,"body":"I did great in that class."},{"startTime":2841.277,"endTime":2842.417,"body":"I, this might be why"},{"startTime":2842.417,"endTime":2842.597,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2842.597,"endTime":2843.047,"body":"Deirdre."},{"startTime":2843.047,"endTime":2844.517,"body":"With the spicy opinions here."},{"startTime":2845.004,"endTime":2845.484,"body":"Ah,"},{"startTime":2845.784,"endTime":2846.317,"body":"Shocking."},{"startTime":2846.317,"endTime":2847.667,"body":"Deirdre likes Gilbert Strang."},{"startTime":2848.667,"endTime":2851.997,"body":"No, but like, I think this might"},{"startTime":2848.667,"endTime":2851.997,"body":"be why I am bored with like lattice"},{"startTime":2851.997,"endTime":2853.407,"body":"math is because I'm like, oh yeah."},{"startTime":2853.407,"endTime":2858.297,"body":"It's just all like, it's the thing"},{"startTime":2853.407,"endTime":2858.297,"body":"I did best at my MIT undergrad."},{"startTime":2858.597,"endTime":2864.289,"body":"I took, I took it in 2012 with some"},{"startTime":2858.597,"endTime":2864.289,"body":"professor who looked like Tom Cruise."},{"startTime":2864.769,"endTime":2867.319,"body":"Um, and that's like all I"},{"startTime":2864.769,"endTime":2867.319,"body":"remember from the class."},{"startTime":2867.409,"endTime":2870.439,"body":"Linear algebra is one of those"},{"startTime":2867.409,"endTime":2870.439,"body":"things that I'm incapable of, like"},{"startTime":2870.439,"endTime":2872.209,"body":"retaining for more than like a month."},{"startTime":2872.512,"endTime":2873.052,"body":"Oh no."},{"startTime":2873.079,"endTime":2873.352,"body":"learned"},{"startTime":2873.499,"endTime":2875.419,"body":"it and then it just out the other ear"},{"startTime":2875.712,"endTime":2878.382,"body":"I learned it from that, from that"},{"startTime":2875.712,"endTime":2878.382,"body":"book and then from the Gilbert Strang"},{"startTime":2878.382,"endTime":2880.692,"body":"YouTube series from the 1803 class."},{"startTime":2881.052,"endTime":2884.352,"body":"Um, which I gotta say, like you, you,"},{"startTime":2881.052,"endTime":2884.352,"body":"you gotta watch those videos, you"},{"startTime":2884.352,"endTime":2888.012,"body":"gotta watch them at 2.5 speed, and"},{"startTime":2884.352,"endTime":2888.012,"body":"then towards the end of each lecture"},{"startTime":2888.222,"endTime":2891.252,"body":"cut it back to his normal speed"},{"startTime":2888.222,"endTime":2891.252,"body":"so he sounds chopped and screwed."},{"startTime":2891.252,"endTime":2891.792,"body":"It's awesome."},{"startTime":2892.152,"endTime":2892.392,"body":"Uh,"},{"startTime":2892.977,"endTime":2894.372,"body":"1803 or 1806."},{"startTime":2894.387,"endTime":2894.627,"body":"I think"},{"startTime":2894.672,"endTime":2896.262,"body":"it's, it's 1806 is probably what"},{"startTime":2896.352,"endTime":2896.472,"body":"it's,"},{"startTime":2896.487,"endTime":2896.757,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2896.824,"endTime":2899.854,"body":"then at some point you actually have"},{"startTime":2896.824,"endTime":2899.854,"body":"to do math problems to learn it and"},{"startTime":2899.854,"endTime":2901.654,"body":"like that's the part that sucks."},{"startTime":2901.954,"endTime":2902.427,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2903.297,"endTime":2904.137,"body":"Uh, cool."},{"startTime":2904.137,"endTime":2905.157,"body":"And I have to catch up."},{"startTime":2905.157,"endTime":2906.927,"body":"I've never seen three blue, one brown."},{"startTime":2906.927,"endTime":2909.177,"body":"So now I have something to, uh, to enjoy."},{"startTime":2909.402,"endTime":2909.582,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":2909.582,"endTime":2910.122,"body":"They're great."},{"startTime":2910.122,"endTime":2910.482,"body":"It's."},{"startTime":2911.127,"endTime":2913.557,"body":"And like, especially 'cause like"},{"startTime":2911.127,"endTime":2913.557,"body":"I have a bunch of stuff queued"},{"startTime":2913.557,"endTime":2914.877,"body":"up for like quantum information."},{"startTime":2914.877,"endTime":2917.547,"body":"There's like an improvement of a,"},{"startTime":2914.877,"endTime":2917.547,"body":"like a quantum attack algorithm."},{"startTime":2917.547,"endTime":2918.537,"body":"And now I like this."},{"startTime":2918.597,"endTime":2923.367,"body":"This will re, you know, prime my brain"},{"startTime":2918.597,"endTime":2923.367,"body":"cash for, 'cause they have a couple"},{"startTime":2923.367,"endTime":2925.947,"body":"of quantum quantum information videos."},{"startTime":2925.947,"endTime":2926.397,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":2926.415,"endTime":2927.525,"body":"do we have one more thing?"},{"startTime":2927.637,"endTime":2933.277,"body":"have one more paper, which is how to prove"},{"startTime":2927.637,"endTime":2933.277,"body":"false statements, which you already have"},{"startTime":2933.277,"endTime":2937.627,"body":"a video about from January, but there's"},{"startTime":2933.277,"endTime":2937.627,"body":"like a Quanta article or something, a"},{"startTime":2937.627,"endTime":2941.557,"body":"Pops eye article about this and people"},{"startTime":2937.627,"endTime":2941.557,"body":"have been asking us to comment on it."},{"startTime":2942.067,"endTime":2947.857,"body":"Um, and so we'll just have Deirdre's proof"},{"startTime":2942.067,"endTime":2947.857,"body":"corner and Thomas, and I'll mute and go"},{"startTime":2947.857,"endTime":2953.38,"body":"off camera while, while Deirdre explains"},{"startTime":2947.857,"endTime":2953.38,"body":"why this paper is not that big of a deal."},{"startTime":2953.68,"endTime":2955.815,"body":"um, well actually it's."},{"startTime":2956.815,"endTime":2961.975,"body":"It's not like the, it's not like"},{"startTime":2956.815,"endTime":2961.975,"body":"they're, the paper was showing some"},{"startTime":2961.975,"endTime":2967.885,"body":"sort of fundamental reorganization of"},{"startTime":2961.975,"endTime":2967.885,"body":"like, information provability, whatever."},{"startTime":2968.035,"endTime":2972.535,"body":"This is specifically about Fiat"},{"startTime":2968.035,"endTime":2972.535,"body":"Shair, the Fiat shair transform."},{"startTime":2972.535,"endTime":2976.255,"body":"That takes in interactive protocol"},{"startTime":2972.535,"endTime":2976.255,"body":"sometimes, like, usually they're like"},{"startTime":2976.255,"endTime":2981.175,"body":"a called a Sigma protocol where there's"},{"startTime":2976.255,"endTime":2981.175,"body":"like someone that makes a commitment, or"},{"startTime":2981.205,"endTime":2986.155,"body":"this is usually the kind of protocol that"},{"startTime":2981.205,"endTime":2986.155,"body":"you apply for your trans transfer to."},{"startTime":2986.635,"endTime":2990.595,"body":"Someone makes a commitment to"},{"startTime":2986.635,"endTime":2990.595,"body":"something like Anon or something else."},{"startTime":2990.805,"endTime":2992.455,"body":"They send that to another party."},{"startTime":2992.815,"endTime":2999.025,"body":"Uh, they, uh, make a challenge based on"},{"startTime":2992.815,"endTime":2999.025,"body":"the commitment value, which is public,"},{"startTime":2999.025,"endTime":3000.825,"body":"and they send the, the challenge over."},{"startTime":3001.125,"endTime":3003.735,"body":"And then there's a response"},{"startTime":3001.125,"endTime":3003.735,"body":"based on the challenge and the"},{"startTime":3003.735,"endTime":3006.195,"body":"commitment and any other information"},{"startTime":3003.735,"endTime":3006.195,"body":"that they have to compute over."},{"startTime":3006.195,"endTime":3008.985,"body":"And there's usually some sort of"},{"startTime":3006.195,"endTime":3008.985,"body":"secret value that they, the only way"},{"startTime":3008.985,"endTime":3010.905,"body":"that they can create a, a response."},{"startTime":3011.475,"endTime":3014.835,"body":"That, uh, will validate what the whole"},{"startTime":3011.475,"endTime":3014.835,"body":"protocols that they have access to"},{"startTime":3014.835,"endTime":3017.925,"body":"the, the secret value or something like"},{"startTime":3014.835,"endTime":3017.925,"body":"that, and then they send that over."},{"startTime":3017.925,"endTime":3022.965,"body":"And then the validator, which is the, the"},{"startTime":3017.925,"endTime":3022.965,"body":"kind of responding party checks everything"},{"startTime":3022.965,"endTime":3025.065,"body":"and checks that it all computes."},{"startTime":3025.215,"endTime":3030.015,"body":"Uh, and you smush all this down using a"},{"startTime":3025.215,"endTime":3030.015,"body":"hash function or something like it, and"},{"startTime":3030.045,"endTime":3036.045,"body":"you're able to, um, compute the challenge"},{"startTime":3030.045,"endTime":3036.045,"body":"via the hash function of everything"},{"startTime":3036.045,"endTime":3039.885,"body":"that comes before so that you don't"},{"startTime":3036.045,"endTime":3039.885,"body":"need this interactive protocol anymore."},{"startTime":3040.185,"endTime":3042.345,"body":"Um, it just turns into"},{"startTime":3040.185,"endTime":3042.345,"body":"a non-interactive thing."},{"startTime":3042.345,"endTime":3047.355,"body":"And this is how we have signatures"},{"startTime":3042.345,"endTime":3047.355,"body":"like, sort of like E-C-D-S-A-E-C."},{"startTime":3047.355,"endTime":3048.495,"body":"DSAs is a kind of funny."},{"startTime":3048.81,"endTime":3055.32,"body":"Uh, funny bastardization of shore,"},{"startTime":3048.81,"endTime":3055.32,"body":"uh, snore, uh, Schnare also d did, um,"},{"startTime":3055.35,"endTime":3059.13,"body":"this lovely protocol and the, you fiat"},{"startTime":3055.35,"endTime":3059.13,"body":"shair it and you get shore signatures."},{"startTime":3059.52,"endTime":3063.21,"body":"But fiat shair is very important for all"},{"startTime":3059.52,"endTime":3063.21,"body":"of these zero knowledge proof protocols"},{"startTime":3063.21,"endTime":3066.93,"body":"for snark protocols that everyone in"},{"startTime":3063.21,"endTime":3066.93,"body":"kind of the zero knowledge space and"},{"startTime":3066.93,"endTime":3072.3,"body":"a lot of cryptocurrency spaces really,"},{"startTime":3066.93,"endTime":3072.3,"body":"really, really like, they go to  town"},{"startTime":3072.3,"endTime":3076.38,"body":"and they just throw Fiat Jamir on these"},{"startTime":3072.3,"endTime":3076.38,"body":"big, big, big complicated protocols."},{"startTime":3077.19,"endTime":3081.57,"body":"And we knew that, like especially"},{"startTime":3077.19,"endTime":3081.57,"body":"the Trail of Bits folks did a lot of"},{"startTime":3081.57,"endTime":3085.56,"body":"work prior to this paper about like,"},{"startTime":3081.57,"endTime":3085.56,"body":"it really, really matters of when you"},{"startTime":3085.56,"endTime":3091.29,"body":"are taking a protocol and you are fiat"},{"startTime":3085.56,"endTime":3091.29,"body":"shame mirroring it, that you include"},{"startTime":3091.29,"endTime":3094.68,"body":"everything you need to include in that"},{"startTime":3091.29,"endTime":3094.68,"body":"Fiat Shamir transform and you commit"},{"startTime":3094.68,"endTime":3097.83,"body":"to it and use it when you're computing"},{"startTime":3094.68,"endTime":3097.83,"body":"these challenges and everything else."},{"startTime":3097.89,"endTime":3098.88,"body":"And that includes."},{"startTime":3099.255,"endTime":3101.085,"body":"The public based parameters."},{"startTime":3101.145,"endTime":3107.475,"body":"All the public information that they quote"},{"startTime":3101.145,"endTime":3107.475,"body":"adversary can see, uh, public keys, uh,"},{"startTime":3107.475,"endTime":3113.265,"body":"the description of the protocol of like,"},{"startTime":3107.475,"endTime":3113.265,"body":"you know, like there's a lot of data that"},{"startTime":3113.265,"endTime":3118.29,"body":"you might, especially when you get into"},{"startTime":3113.265,"endTime":3118.29,"body":"more complicated things like A-Z-K-V-M"},{"startTime":3118.29,"endTime":3121.005,"body":"or something like that, or just like"},{"startTime":3118.29,"endTime":3121.005,"body":"these much more complicated protocols"},{"startTime":3121.005,"endTime":3125.535,"body":"than just like, uh, a signature scheme,"},{"startTime":3121.005,"endTime":3125.535,"body":"which is basically proof of identity"},{"startTime":3125.535,"endTime":3127.005,"body":"or like kind of proof of possession."},{"startTime":3127.005,"endTime":3128.595,"body":"Those are very, very simple."},{"startTime":3129.165,"endTime":3133.125,"body":"But once you get a lot more complicated,"},{"startTime":3129.165,"endTime":3133.125,"body":"there's just a lot more stuff"},{"startTime":3133.215,"endTime":3137.895,"body":"that's very important to include in"},{"startTime":3133.215,"endTime":3137.895,"body":"your zk, uh, your fiat transform."},{"startTime":3138.435,"endTime":3140.505,"body":"Um, and it's easy to forget something."},{"startTime":3140.775,"endTime":3144.572,"body":"This paper basically was"},{"startTime":3140.775,"endTime":3144.572,"body":"a, a dirty, dirty hack."},{"startTime":3145.572,"endTime":3151.482,"body":"A brilliant, dirty, dirty hack where"},{"startTime":3145.572,"endTime":3151.482,"body":"you're, they were a, basically able to."},{"startTime":3151.902,"endTime":3157.782,"body":"Embed, they were able to like embed"},{"startTime":3151.902,"endTime":3157.782,"body":"into the actual, transform the"},{"startTime":3157.782,"endTime":3162.252,"body":"computation of, I forget if it was"},{"startTime":3157.782,"endTime":3162.252,"body":"the, I think it was the challenge, so"},{"startTime":3162.252,"endTime":3165.132,"body":"that they're able to prove something."},{"startTime":3165.132,"endTime":3168.252,"body":"They're able to prove a false statement"},{"startTime":3165.132,"endTime":3168.252,"body":"because they're able to compute"},{"startTime":3168.552,"endTime":3171.072,"body":"the thing inside it on the fly."},{"startTime":3171.432,"endTime":3174.972,"body":"And instead of it actually"},{"startTime":3171.432,"endTime":3174.972,"body":"being, uh, computed ahead of"},{"startTime":3174.972,"endTime":3178.242,"body":"time or deterministically or"},{"startTime":3174.972,"endTime":3178.242,"body":"whatever, they're able, it's this"},{"startTime":3178.242,"endTime":3180.102,"body":"convoluted, dirty, dirty hack."},{"startTime":3180.492,"endTime":3184.482,"body":"Um, and we'll, we'll include"},{"startTime":3180.492,"endTime":3184.482,"body":"a link to my, uh, my edit of,"},{"startTime":3184.572,"endTime":3185.802,"body":"of doing a deep dive on it."},{"startTime":3186.187,"endTime":3192.037,"body":"it is not exactly about, haha, we can"},{"startTime":3186.187,"endTime":3192.037,"body":"just prove fake shit all the time."},{"startTime":3192.367,"endTime":3199.777,"body":"It is, it is an abject lesson in, um,"},{"startTime":3192.367,"endTime":3199.777,"body":"it's hard to do fiat shair securely."},{"startTime":3199.807,"endTime":3204.697,"body":"The more complicated, uh, that"},{"startTime":3199.807,"endTime":3204.697,"body":"your protocol gets and the more"},{"startTime":3204.697,"endTime":3208.267,"body":"complicated your statements are, um."},{"startTime":3208.957,"endTime":3214.537,"body":"The things that are very simple, the"},{"startTime":3208.957,"endTime":3214.537,"body":"result of v very simple fiat uh, fiat"},{"startTime":3214.657,"endTime":3217.837,"body":"mirroring, very simple protocols, sort"},{"startTime":3214.657,"endTime":3217.837,"body":"of the way you get signatures and very"},{"startTime":3217.837,"endTime":3221.917,"body":"simple, kind of like zero knowledge"},{"startTime":3217.837,"endTime":3221.917,"body":"commitment schemes or something like that."},{"startTime":3222.667,"endTime":3224.137,"body":"Those still seem fine."},{"startTime":3224.317,"endTime":3225.907,"body":"Like it's just very simple."},{"startTime":3225.907,"endTime":3231.397,"body":"This paper is more like, there's a lot of"},{"startTime":3225.907,"endTime":3231.397,"body":"things you have to get right to do this"},{"startTime":3231.397,"endTime":3233.977,"body":"securely with more complicated protocols."},{"startTime":3234.007,"endTime":3239.497,"body":"And it's also like, it may be a death"},{"startTime":3234.007,"endTime":3239.497,"body":"knell for things like zero knowledge"},{"startTime":3239.685,"endTime":3244.717,"body":"VMs, which take an arbitrary like, uh,"},{"startTime":3239.685,"endTime":3244.717,"body":"circuit statement, like an arbitrary"},{"startTime":3244.837,"endTime":3249.727,"body":"program, and they're trying to like"},{"startTime":3244.837,"endTime":3249.727,"body":"prove like execution in zero knowledge."},{"startTime":3249.787,"endTime":3253.627,"body":"That's like the whole kind of"},{"startTime":3249.787,"endTime":3253.627,"body":"like value statement of A-Z-K-V-M."},{"startTime":3253.627,"endTime":3254.077,"body":"Like you can."},{"startTime":3254.602,"endTime":3259.582,"body":"Run something on the fly in your"},{"startTime":3254.602,"endTime":3259.582,"body":"virtual machine, uh, in zero knowledge"},{"startTime":3259.582,"endTime":3261.682,"body":"and just, just prove that it executed."},{"startTime":3261.682,"endTime":3263.092,"body":"And that's all like correctly."},{"startTime":3263.092,"endTime":3264.172,"body":"And that's all you're doing."},{"startTime":3264.352,"endTime":3268.222,"body":"But you're accepting arbitrary"},{"startTime":3264.352,"endTime":3268.222,"body":"program, arbitrary quote, circuit"},{"startTime":3268.222,"endTime":3271.012,"body":"statements, uh, to the vm."},{"startTime":3271.102,"endTime":3276.232,"body":"And it's, it seems very clear that"},{"startTime":3271.102,"endTime":3276.232,"body":"like an attack, like this is gonna"},{"startTime":3276.232,"endTime":3281.542,"body":"be very, very hard to just fully"},{"startTime":3276.232,"endTime":3281.542,"body":"mitigate in A-Z-K-V-M construction."},{"startTime":3281.962,"endTime":3284.602,"body":"Um, like you'll just be like whack-a-mole."},{"startTime":3284.602,"endTime":3288.562,"body":"You're just, it's gonna make it really,"},{"startTime":3284.602,"endTime":3288.562,"body":"really hard to provide the value that"},{"startTime":3288.562,"endTime":3294.322,"body":"A-Z-K-V-M theory would provide you,"},{"startTime":3288.562,"endTime":3294.322,"body":"while also mitigating every possible"},{"startTime":3294.322,"endTime":3296.782,"body":"like, avenue of this sort of like attack."},{"startTime":3297.262,"endTime":3298.282,"body":"Uh, yeah."},{"startTime":3299.953,"endTime":3304.071,"body":"For this paper that was,"},{"startTime":3299.953,"endTime":3304.071,"body":"uh, written about in Quanta."},{"startTime":3304.421,"endTime":3307.991,"body":"We construct an explicit circuit for"},{"startTime":3304.421,"endTime":3307.991,"body":"which we can generate an accepting"},{"startTime":3307.991,"endTime":3309.825,"body":"proof for a false statement."},{"startTime":3310.365,"endTime":3311.205,"body":"And let's see,"},{"startTime":3311.559,"endTime":3311.769,"body":"let's"},{"startTime":3311.811,"endTime":3315.081,"body":"kind of reminds me, there's like"},{"startTime":3311.811,"endTime":3315.081,"body":"a class of people that think"},{"startTime":3315.081,"endTime":3317.181,"body":"imaginary numbers aren't real."},{"startTime":3317.931,"endTime":3319.516,"body":"Um, I mean that in the."},{"startTime":3319.996,"endTime":3324.196,"body":"A colloquial way and not the math"},{"startTime":3319.996,"endTime":3324.196,"body":"way, which is definition only true."},{"startTime":3324.706,"endTime":3326.896,"body":"Um, because they think"},{"startTime":3324.706,"endTime":3326.896,"body":"it's an affront to God."},{"startTime":3327.406,"endTime":3329.056,"body":"And so then they show you these proofs."},{"startTime":3329.056,"endTime":3330.196,"body":"This is like a real thing."},{"startTime":3330.406,"endTime":3334.486,"body":"Um, and then they show you these proofs"},{"startTime":3330.406,"endTime":3334.486,"body":"of how like, I can't exist because"},{"startTime":3334.486,"endTime":3336.281,"body":"like you do like square some stuff."},{"startTime":3336.466,"endTime":3339.706,"body":"Then you take like the half power,"},{"startTime":3336.466,"endTime":3339.706,"body":"then you end up with something that"},{"startTime":3339.706,"endTime":3341.326,"body":"looks like negative one equals one."},{"startTime":3341.866,"endTime":3344.746,"body":"And the problem with 'em is that all"},{"startTime":3341.866,"endTime":3344.746,"body":"of these proves they're just like using"},{"startTime":3344.746,"endTime":3346.096,"body":"the square root operator incorrectly."},{"startTime":3347.396,"endTime":3350.786,"body":"like then you just like end up"},{"startTime":3347.396,"endTime":3350.786,"body":"losing a minus sign because like"},{"startTime":3351.026,"endTime":3354.236,"body":"plus or minus or odd and then you"},{"startTime":3351.026,"endTime":3354.236,"body":"end up with like one or negative one."},{"startTime":3354.896,"endTime":3358.136,"body":"And uh, yeah, that's"},{"startTime":3354.896,"endTime":3358.136,"body":"what this reminds me of."},{"startTime":3359.136,"endTime":3360.396,"body":"Um, yeah."},{"startTime":3360.816,"endTime":3362.316,"body":"We've not broken all math,"},{"startTime":3362.354,"endTime":3367.154,"body":"no abs absolutely not like the,"},{"startTime":3362.354,"endTime":3367.154,"body":"the, the, the title of the paper"},{"startTime":3367.154,"endTime":3369.824,"body":"is very good because that's"},{"startTime":3367.154,"endTime":3369.824,"body":"what they're literally doing."},{"startTime":3369.824,"endTime":3374.804,"body":"They're able to construct a circuit that"},{"startTime":3369.824,"endTime":3374.804,"body":"is, and they're able to make a proof."},{"startTime":3374.804,"endTime":3378.884,"body":"They're able to send it to the scheme,"},{"startTime":3374.804,"endTime":3378.884,"body":"which has this, you know, it's not"},{"startTime":3379.454,"endTime":3381.044,"body":"covering everything completely."},{"startTime":3381.104,"endTime":3383.174,"body":"And so they're able to prove"},{"startTime":3381.104,"endTime":3383.174,"body":"something that's not true."},{"startTime":3383.174,"endTime":3386.894,"body":"They're able to, to produce a"},{"startTime":3383.174,"endTime":3386.894,"body":"proof that is proving a statement."},{"startTime":3386.924,"endTime":3388.274,"body":"This is not in fact true."},{"startTime":3388.574,"endTime":3392.024,"body":"Uh, and that's, I think it's, I think"},{"startTime":3388.574,"endTime":3392.024,"body":"it's, uh, I forget which one it's"},{"startTime":3392.024,"endTime":3394.664,"body":"soundness, uh, or versus completeness."},{"startTime":3394.664,"endTime":3398.714,"body":"It's like literally you're able, soundness"},{"startTime":3394.664,"endTime":3398.714,"body":"is like, you're, you prove everything."},{"startTime":3398.714,"endTime":3399.314,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3399.344,"endTime":3400.544,"body":"The proof system is truthful."},{"startTime":3400.544,"endTime":3402.974,"body":"So whatever it proves is"},{"startTime":3400.544,"endTime":3402.974,"body":"true versus completeness."},{"startTime":3403.154,"endTime":3405.824,"body":"It's comprehensive so it"},{"startTime":3403.154,"endTime":3405.824,"body":"can prove all truth things."},{"startTime":3405.824,"endTime":3410.324,"body":"So it, yeah, it breaks down this because"},{"startTime":3405.824,"endTime":3410.324,"body":"it's producing a proof that is, uh, that"},{"startTime":3410.324,"endTime":3412.064,"body":"validates of something that is not true."},{"startTime":3412.563,"endTime":3413.373,"body":"And then."},{"startTime":3413.898,"endTime":3416.508,"body":"I'm just going to go through their"},{"startTime":3413.898,"endTime":3416.508,"body":"conclusion 'cause it's quite good."},{"startTime":3416.748,"endTime":3420.738,"body":"We find the violation of Fi, fiat"},{"startTime":3416.748,"endTime":3420.738,"body":"shair, uh, of a standard natural"},{"startTime":3420.738,"endTime":3422.058,"body":"protocol to be very concerning."},{"startTime":3422.472,"endTime":3426.612,"body":"it raises the question about whether"},{"startTime":3422.472,"endTime":3426.612,"body":"fiat shair of other protocols is secure,"},{"startTime":3426.942,"endTime":3430.842,"body":"is worth worthwhile to point out some"},{"startTime":3426.942,"endTime":3430.842,"body":"specific properties of the GR based"},{"startTime":3430.842,"endTime":3434.682,"body":"protocol that we considered in this"},{"startTime":3430.842,"endTime":3434.682,"body":"work, which facilitated our attack."},{"startTime":3434.982,"endTime":3437.532,"body":"While we do not know tax protocols"},{"startTime":3434.982,"endTime":3437.532,"body":"that do not satisfy these properties,"},{"startTime":3437.532,"endTime":3438.822,"body":"doesn't mean these attacks don't exist."},{"startTime":3438.822,"endTime":3442.152,"body":"Is useful to compare the modern"},{"startTime":3438.822,"endTime":3442.152,"body":"applications of Fiat Tamir to those"},{"startTime":3442.152,"endTime":3446.412,"body":"originally envisioned in the eighties"},{"startTime":3442.152,"endTime":3446.412,"body":"and nineties, specifically in the context"},{"startTime":3446.412,"endTime":3448.242,"body":"of constructions of digital signatures."},{"startTime":3448.242,"endTime":3448.692,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":3449.082,"endTime":3452.682,"body":"The original use was applied to very"},{"startTime":3449.082,"endTime":3452.682,"body":"specific identification schemes."},{"startTime":3453.124,"endTime":3456.211,"body":"in contrast, the modern usage is"},{"startTime":3453.124,"endTime":3456.211,"body":"intentionally designed for protocols that"},{"startTime":3456.211,"endTime":3459.211,"body":"are to prove general purpose computations."},{"startTime":3459.541,"endTime":3463.681,"body":"Um, our tech leverages this in order"},{"startTime":3459.541,"endTime":3463.681,"body":"to invoke the proof system relative."},{"startTime":3464.041,"endTime":3467.431,"body":"To a computation involves the computation"},{"startTime":3464.041,"endTime":3467.431,"body":"of the fiat mirror hash function itself."},{"startTime":3467.431,"endTime":3467.731,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3467.731,"endTime":3468.901,"body":"As well as the polynomial commitment."},{"startTime":3468.931,"endTime":3469.171,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3469.171,"endTime":3473.491,"body":"So I, I remembered it right, but"},{"startTime":3469.171,"endTime":3473.491,"body":"it was like how it's computing its"},{"startTime":3473.521,"endTime":3478.351,"body":"challenge via the hash function of"},{"startTime":3473.521,"endTime":3478.351,"body":"over the, you know, the circuit that"},{"startTime":3478.351,"endTime":3479.731,"body":"they were able to able to manipulate."},{"startTime":3480.338,"endTime":3484.388,"body":"the G care based protocol, uh, has a"},{"startTime":3480.338,"endTime":3484.388,"body":"key property of the prover, does not"},{"startTime":3484.388,"endTime":3487.208,"body":"commit to the full computation trace."},{"startTime":3487.418,"endTime":3489.938,"body":"This is one of the most compelling"},{"startTime":3487.418,"endTime":3489.938,"body":"features of the protocol."},{"startTime":3490.178,"endTime":3492.518,"body":"Unfortunately, the fact that the"},{"startTime":3490.178,"endTime":3492.518,"body":"computation is not committed to also"},{"startTime":3492.518,"endTime":3496.658,"body":"enables our attack, we can consider"},{"startTime":3492.518,"endTime":3496.658,"body":"explicitly invoking the fiat mere hash"},{"startTime":3496.658,"endTime":3499.988,"body":"function without the need to commit"},{"startTime":3496.658,"endTime":3499.988,"body":"to the corresponding computation"},{"startTime":3499.988,"endTime":3503.353,"body":"Trace as a natural measure for this"},{"startTime":3499.988,"endTime":3503.353,"body":"is to ensure that the circuit family"},{"startTime":3503.353,"endTime":3506.413,"body":"is considered, is not powerful"},{"startTime":3503.353,"endTime":3506.413,"body":"enough to compute the hash function."},{"startTime":3507.043,"endTime":3509.233,"body":"This can be done in any natural"},{"startTime":3507.043,"endTime":3509.233,"body":"computational research, but some"},{"startTime":3509.233,"endTime":3512.503,"body":"natural ones are depth, such as an"},{"startTime":3509.233,"endTime":3512.503,"body":"ARI arithmetic circuit or potentially"},{"startTime":3512.503,"endTime":3515.653,"body":"algebraic degree, uh, yada, yada, yada."},{"startTime":3515.893,"endTime":3517.603,"body":"We emphasize that, well, we do"},{"startTime":3515.893,"endTime":3517.603,"body":"not know how to attack protocols"},{"startTime":3517.603,"endTime":3518.653,"body":"that places common measures."},{"startTime":3518.893,"endTime":3520.333,"body":"Whether or not they, they're"},{"startTime":3518.893,"endTime":3520.333,"body":"actually secure is enough."},{"startTime":3520.333,"endTime":3520.813,"body":"A question."},{"startTime":3521.363,"endTime":3522.473,"body":"Oh, we lost David."},{"startTime":3522.563,"endTime":3524.543,"body":"David's been having, uh, recording issues."},{"startTime":3524.85,"endTime":3529.8,"body":"Yeah, he, he, he gave us a command, which"},{"startTime":3524.85,"endTime":3529.8,"body":"is plug the event and end the episode."},{"startTime":3530.1,"endTime":3530.395,"body":"okay."},{"startTime":3530.695,"endTime":3533.451,"body":"So yeah, we can't prove"},{"startTime":3530.695,"endTime":3533.451,"body":"arbitrary false statements."},{"startTime":3534.021,"endTime":3538.431,"body":"Uh, this attack was very, a very"},{"startTime":3534.021,"endTime":3538.431,"body":"clever, cute hack, uh, uh, against"},{"startTime":3538.431,"endTime":3539.661,"body":"a very particular protocol."},{"startTime":3539.661,"endTime":3544.911,"body":"But the protocol itself has a kind"},{"startTime":3539.661,"endTime":3544.911,"body":"of weakness that is both attractive."},{"startTime":3544.911,"endTime":3545.901,"body":"I forget why."},{"startTime":3546.171,"endTime":3550.251,"body":"Uh, it's probably more efficient or, or"},{"startTime":3546.171,"endTime":3550.251,"body":"something like that, but also is open"},{"startTime":3550.251,"endTime":3554.331,"body":"up to this vulnerability, um, because"},{"startTime":3550.251,"endTime":3554.331,"body":"you're not actually committing to the"},{"startTime":3554.331,"endTime":3557.151,"body":"entire like thing you're going to compute."},{"startTime":3557.211,"endTime":3562.041,"body":"And therefore when the quote"},{"startTime":3557.211,"endTime":3562.041,"body":"attacker hands you a thing to"},{"startTime":3562.041,"endTime":3564.381,"body":"compute, that includes in it."},{"startTime":3564.741,"endTime":3566.271,"body":"The thing that computes."},{"startTime":3566.646,"endTime":3571.806,"body":"The challenge, a KAA hash function,"},{"startTime":3566.646,"endTime":3571.806,"body":"it's able to like, it's able to"},{"startTime":3571.806,"endTime":3575.766,"body":"just turn it on its head and prove"},{"startTime":3571.806,"endTime":3575.766,"body":"something false, produce a proof of"},{"startTime":3575.766,"endTime":3577.386,"body":"a statement that's actually false."},{"startTime":3578.046,"endTime":3582.906,"body":"Um, it is mitigatable, but it's"},{"startTime":3578.046,"endTime":3582.906,"body":"unclear if it's mitigatable"},{"startTime":3582.966,"endTime":3585.456,"body":"period for protocols like this."},{"startTime":3585.456,"endTime":3589.266,"body":"And also how much mitigating this"},{"startTime":3585.456,"endTime":3589.266,"body":"sort of vulnerability will affect"},{"startTime":3589.266,"endTime":3595.266,"body":"things like CK VMs or other arbitrary,"},{"startTime":3589.266,"endTime":3595.266,"body":"uh, computing in zero knowledge."},{"startTime":3595.566,"endTime":3597.306,"body":"Um, but that's it."},{"startTime":3598.116,"endTime":3601.296,"body":"It's very relevant for ZK people"},{"startTime":3598.116,"endTime":3601.296,"body":"and people who care about fi Jamir."},{"startTime":3601.986,"endTime":3604.266,"body":"And don't worry,"},{"startTime":3605.06,"endTime":3605.63,"body":"don't worry about it."},{"startTime":3606.63,"endTime":3610.92,"body":"and with all that, having being said, I"},{"startTime":3606.63,"endTime":3610.92,"body":"would like to, uh, recommend everybody to"},{"startTime":3610.92,"endTime":3616.455,"body":"come out to Vegas, to the SEW PO event,"},{"startTime":3610.92,"endTime":3616.455,"body":"where the vibes last year were immaculate."},{"startTime":3616.755,"endTime":3617.415,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3617.79,"endTime":3622.11,"body":"And with that, because David asked"},{"startTime":3617.79,"endTime":3622.11,"body":"me to, I have ended the episode."},{"startTime":3623.11,"endTime":3623.29,"body":"Bye."},{"startTime":3625.72,"endTime":3628.57,"body":"Security Cryptography Whatever is a"},{"startTime":3625.72,"endTime":3628.57,"body":"side project from Deirdre Connolly,"},{"startTime":3628.57,"endTime":3630.02,"body":"Thomas Ptacek, and David Adrian."},{"startTime":3630.02,"endTime":3631.22,"body":"Our editor is Nettie Smith."},{"startTime":3631.46,"endTime":3634.1,"body":"You can find the podcast now"},{"startTime":3631.46,"endTime":3634.1,"body":"online at scwpod and the hosts"},{"startTime":3634.1,"endTime":3637.63,"body":"online at durumcrustulum, at"},{"startTime":3634.1,"endTime":3637.63,"body":"tqbf, and at davidcadrian."},{"startTime":3637.81,"endTime":3641.33,"body":"You can buy merch online at merch dot"},{"startTime":3637.81,"endTime":3641.33,"body":"securitycryptographywhatever dot com."},{"startTime":3641.4,"endTime":3643.49,"body":"If you like the pod, give us a"},{"startTime":3641.4,"endTime":3643.49,"body":"five star review wherever you"},{"startTime":3643.49,"endTime":3644.27,"body":"rate your favorite podcasts."},{"startTime":3644.715,"endTime":3648.201,"body":"Also now we're on YouTube, with our"},{"startTime":3644.715,"endTime":3648.201,"body":"faces, our actual human faces, human"},{"startTime":3648.201,"endTime":3650.181,"body":"faces, not guaranteed on YouTube."},{"startTime":3650.211,"endTime":3653.121,"body":"Please subscribe to us on YouTube if"},{"startTime":3650.211,"endTime":3653.121,"body":"you'd like to see our human faces."},{"startTime":3653.361,"endTime":3654.291,"body":"Thank you for listening,"}]}