{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.061,"endTime":2.491,"body":"almost all PGP encrypted emails are larp."},{"startTime":2.768,"endTime":5.648,"body":"they're encrypted because, you"},{"startTime":2.768,"endTime":5.648,"body":"know, people feel cool, encrypting"},{"startTime":5.648,"endTime":6.758,"body":"it, they're like play acting."},{"startTime":6.788,"endTime":10.448,"body":"It's like a, you know, Nerf swords version"},{"startTime":6.788,"endTime":10.448,"body":"of, of whatever it is they're doing."},{"startTime":14.671,"endTime":21.511,"body":"Hello and welcome to Security Cryptography"},{"startTime":14.671,"endTime":21.511,"body":"and Whatever I'm your host Tom with."},{"startTime":23.041,"endTime":23.581,"body":"am Deirdre."},{"startTime":24.751,"endTime":25.681,"body":"Oh,"},{"startTime":25.831,"endTime":26.311,"body":"we're running with"},{"startTime":26.371,"endTime":26.866,"body":"wrong time."},{"startTime":27.286,"endTime":28.186,"body":"I'm always second."},{"startTime":28.886,"endTime":29.786,"body":"I'm always second."},{"startTime":30.451,"endTime":31.831,"body":"I know, but oh well."},{"startTime":32.731,"endTime":35.011,"body":"and with us today is William Woodruff."},{"startTime":35.311,"endTime":37.441,"body":"Uh, I spent, I'm a little wrecked."},{"startTime":37.441,"endTime":42.361,"body":"I spent the day moving boxes and"},{"startTime":37.441,"endTime":42.361,"body":"bookshelves and furniture from my mom's"},{"startTime":42.361,"endTime":45.451,"body":"office to clear out some space for"},{"startTime":42.361,"endTime":45.451,"body":"her, which is a thing I would rather"},{"startTime":45.451,"endTime":48.361,"body":"do than ever read a PGP email message."},{"startTime":48.691,"endTime":51.841,"body":"Um, which is what we are here to"},{"startTime":48.691,"endTime":51.841,"body":"talk about with William Woodruff"},{"startTime":51.841,"endTime":55.351,"body":"today, the secure email ecosystem."},{"startTime":55.801,"endTime":59.131,"body":"Um, and I kind of think we should"},{"startTime":55.801,"endTime":59.131,"body":"kick this off with the reason we're"},{"startTime":59.131,"endTime":63.301,"body":"talking about that this week, which"},{"startTime":59.131,"endTime":63.301,"body":"is, uh, I think there was a bug."},{"startTime":63.901,"endTime":66.151,"body":"There was a bug this week in open pgp."},{"startTime":66.421,"endTime":66.661,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":66.721,"endTime":68.791,"body":"Oh it was, it was an open PGP js."},{"startTime":69.211,"endTime":70.261,"body":"Does anyone know how it worked?"},{"startTime":71.771,"endTime":72.211,"body":"No,"},{"startTime":72.886,"endTime":73.146,"body":"It was"},{"startTime":73.381,"endTime":74.251,"body":"malformed packet."},{"startTime":74.251,"endTime":76.346,"body":"It was like, it was some kind, it was"},{"startTime":74.251,"endTime":76.346,"body":"a packet of confusion of some sort."},{"startTime":77.406,"endTime":79.591,"body":"I, I, I was not being serious."},{"startTime":79.596,"endTime":81.931,"body":"Do, do you three really not"},{"startTime":79.596,"endTime":81.931,"body":"know how this bug works?"},{"startTime":82.231,"endTime":84.961,"body":"I really do not know how this"},{"startTime":82.231,"endTime":84.961,"body":"bug works and I'm excited"},{"startTime":84.961,"endTime":86.011,"body":"for you to explain it to me."},{"startTime":86.431,"endTime":87.541,"body":"You had one job."},{"startTime":87.541,"endTime":88.681,"body":"This is the thing we talked"},{"startTime":88.681,"endTime":89.851,"body":"about that you were gonna talk about."},{"startTime":89.881,"endTime":90.481,"body":"Oh my God."},{"startTime":90.811,"endTime":91.176,"body":"I read the"},{"startTime":91.216,"endTime":91.831,"body":"other things."},{"startTime":92.131,"endTime":96.331,"body":"told me to read the packet format and I"},{"startTime":92.131,"endTime":96.331,"body":"looked at it and I was like, oh, cool."},{"startTime":96.331,"endTime":98.371,"body":"The new packet formats from 1998."},{"startTime":99.511,"endTime":102.361,"body":"I think we should talk, I think"},{"startTime":99.511,"endTime":102.361,"body":"we should talk for a little while,"},{"startTime":102.601,"endTime":106.141,"body":"for a very short while about"},{"startTime":102.601,"endTime":106.141,"body":"how PGP messages are formatted."},{"startTime":106.501,"endTime":109.771,"body":"Can I ask if any of the three of you"},{"startTime":106.501,"endTime":109.771,"body":"know how a PGP message is formatted?"},{"startTime":110.106,"endTime":110.406,"body":"It is."},{"startTime":111.316,"endTime":114.016,"body":"Binary data that's been ASE"},{"startTime":111.316,"endTime":114.016,"body":"armored and for some reason"},{"startTime":114.016,"endTime":115.456,"body":"has a CRC check sum at the end."},{"startTime":116.671,"endTime":118.561,"body":"O if only that were the case."},{"startTime":118.861,"endTime":119.086,"body":"Oh."},{"startTime":122.686,"endTime":123.316,"body":"Go on."},{"startTime":124.081,"endTime":126.521,"body":"This is the point where somebody comes"},{"startTime":124.081,"endTime":126.521,"body":"in and explains why it's not the case."},{"startTime":128.131,"endTime":133.321,"body":"All right, so there's a blog post"},{"startTime":128.131,"endTime":133.321,"body":"from, what is it, the name of the,"},{"startTime":133.411,"endTime":134.971,"body":"it's a good Find Code and Labs."},{"startTime":134.971,"endTime":136.261,"body":"They deserve credit for this, right?"},{"startTime":136.441,"endTime":140.221,"body":"So they have a vulnerability that"},{"startTime":136.441,"endTime":140.221,"body":"allows you to, um, spoof arbitrary"},{"startTime":140.281,"endTime":142.441,"body":"open PGP messages as valid."},{"startTime":142.951,"endTime":148.261,"body":"Um, and that message opens up with"},{"startTime":142.951,"endTime":148.261,"body":"the claim that PGP has a relatively"},{"startTime":148.261,"endTime":153.691,"body":"simple packet format and then points"},{"startTime":148.261,"endTime":153.691,"body":"to the RFC where they explain the"},{"startTime":153.691,"endTime":156.541,"body":"grammar of the PGP packet format."},{"startTime":157.546,"endTime":159.361,"body":"RFC 48 80."},{"startTime":159.991,"endTime":161.941,"body":"this is RFC 95 80."},{"startTime":162.181,"endTime":162.211,"body":"Oh,"},{"startTime":162.481,"endTime":162.931,"body":"Um."},{"startTime":163.621,"endTime":166.891,"body":"So an open pg p message is a"},{"startTime":163.621,"endTime":166.891,"body":"packet or sequence of packets"},{"startTime":166.891,"endTime":168.211,"body":"that adheres to blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":168.451,"endTime":172.651,"body":"The following grammar, which is open PGP"},{"startTime":168.451,"endTime":172.651,"body":"message, consists of encrypted message"},{"startTime":172.651,"endTime":176.461,"body":"or sign message, or a compressed message,"},{"startTime":172.651,"endTime":176.461,"body":"or a literal message where a compressed"},{"startTime":176.461,"endTime":177.961,"body":"message is a compressed data packet."},{"startTime":178.021,"endTime":180.151,"body":"And a literal message is"},{"startTime":178.021,"endTime":180.151,"body":"a literal data packet."},{"startTime":180.271,"endTime":182.851,"body":"It goes on and on like this,"},{"startTime":180.271,"endTime":182.851,"body":"in like a pseudo BNF thing."},{"startTime":182.851,"endTime":185.971,"body":"And any of these things can"},{"startTime":182.851,"endTime":185.971,"body":"wrap any of these other things."},{"startTime":186.061,"endTime":186.271,"body":"So"},{"startTime":186.271,"endTime":191.761,"body":"it's like an arbitrarily nested,"},{"startTime":186.271,"endTime":191.761,"body":"you know, set of packets, like, you"},{"startTime":191.761,"endTime":194.191,"body":"know, type length value packets."},{"startTime":194.521,"endTime":195.061,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":196.691,"endTime":197.271,"body":"And, And,"},{"startTime":197.271,"endTime":198.231,"body":"the packets have types."},{"startTime":198.251,"endTime":201.676,"body":"So this is like every network protocol"},{"startTime":198.251,"endTime":201.676,"body":"has like a typed packet format."},{"startTime":201.676,"endTime":204.286,"body":"So why, why are we, uh."},{"startTime":204.346,"endTime":208.211,"body":"like thi this, like this packet format"},{"startTime":204.346,"endTime":208.211,"body":"has apparently been a nightmare for PGP"},{"startTime":208.216,"endTime":210.106,"body":"implementers for like a really long time."},{"startTime":210.466,"endTime":216.106,"body":"Um, there was like in the, up until"},{"startTime":210.466,"endTime":216.106,"body":"like, I guess the late two thousands,"},{"startTime":216.106,"endTime":218.776,"body":"somebody's gonna call me on this, but"},{"startTime":216.106,"endTime":218.776,"body":"it's some, some, some, somewhere around"},{"startTime":218.776,"endTime":223.681,"body":"that timeframe, there was a network"},{"startTime":218.776,"endTime":223.681,"body":"of PGP key servers that everyone used."},{"startTime":224.116,"endTime":226.786,"body":"Um, there was like a global"},{"startTime":224.116,"endTime":226.786,"body":"internet key server network where"},{"startTime":226.786,"endTime":227.866,"body":"you could register your keys."},{"startTime":227.896,"endTime":231.196,"body":"This is by itself a bad idea and"},{"startTime":227.896,"endTime":231.196,"body":"we'll get into why that is later."},{"startTime":231.436,"endTime":232.876,"body":"But it existed."},{"startTime":233.236,"endTime":233.926,"body":"Um, it"},{"startTime":233.926,"endTime":234.316,"body":"stopped"},{"startTime":234.421,"endTime":237.061,"body":"idea because the way the,"},{"startTime":234.421,"endTime":237.061,"body":"the keys are used, like"},{"startTime":237.361,"endTime":240.151,"body":"we have, we have bulletin boards"},{"startTime":237.361,"endTime":240.151,"body":"for certain kinds of keys."},{"startTime":240.151,"endTime":241.801,"body":"That is not the worst thing in the world."},{"startTime":242.581,"endTime":244.036,"body":"Yeah, you're definitely right."},{"startTime":244.096,"endTime":245.446,"body":"And we'll get into like"},{"startTime":245.746,"endTime":250.411,"body":"PGP as like a. PGP is like a strata"},{"startTime":245.746,"endTime":250.411,"body":"for like signing things for like"},{"startTime":250.411,"endTime":251.881,"body":"signing packages and things like that"},{"startTime":252.121,"endTime":253.501,"body":"versus for secure messaging."},{"startTime":253.501,"endTime":254.071,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":254.161,"endTime":258.421,"body":"Um, but like, so the thing that takes"},{"startTime":254.161,"endTime":258.421,"body":"my understanding is the thing that"},{"startTime":258.421,"endTime":263.071,"body":"takes the key server down is a series"},{"startTime":258.421,"endTime":263.071,"body":"of DOS attacks on the key server stuff"},{"startTime":263.071,"endTime":265.231,"body":"based on packet parsing problems."},{"startTime":265.231,"endTime":268.681,"body":"Like there are ways to make the"},{"startTime":265.231,"endTime":268.681,"body":"parsing of those packets go quadratic,"},{"startTime":268.981,"endTime":272.581,"body":"um, so that you can send like, you"},{"startTime":268.981,"endTime":272.581,"body":"know, fork bombs of PGP packets."},{"startTime":272.731,"endTime":275.491,"body":"William is nodding, so I think William"},{"startTime":272.731,"endTime":275.491,"body":"knows something so I can stop talking."},{"startTime":275.791,"endTime":278.551,"body":"Yeah, well, I, the, the main thing"},{"startTime":275.791,"endTime":278.551,"body":"that I remember was I think the,"},{"startTime":278.551,"endTime":282.296,"body":"the big PGP key server explosion"},{"startTime":278.551,"endTime":282.296,"body":"was in, I wanna say 2018 or 2019."},{"startTime":282.721,"endTime":283.891,"body":"And that was because"},{"startTime":284.086,"endTime":285.346,"body":"That's far too late."},{"startTime":286.171,"endTime":289.861,"body":"Yeah, shock shockingly, I, I would"},{"startTime":286.171,"endTime":289.861,"body":"say, um, and it was, yeah, they,"},{"startTime":289.861,"endTime":293.551,"body":"they, it was, it was trivial to make,"},{"startTime":289.861,"endTime":293.551,"body":"uh, both GPG and other PGP backends."},{"startTime":293.551,"endTime":296.791,"body":"Not that there's so many, but the other"},{"startTime":293.551,"endTime":296.791,"body":"ones as well go quadratic on key paring."},{"startTime":297.511,"endTime":297.991,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":298.441,"endTime":302.791,"body":"Which keys in, like, keys in PGP"},{"startTime":298.441,"endTime":302.791,"body":"messages are themselves packets."},{"startTime":302.791,"endTime":303.301,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":303.361,"endTime":303.541,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":303.541,"endTime":306.631,"body":"I guess I guess I'm using key"},{"startTime":303.541,"endTime":306.631,"body":"interchangeably with what PGP"},{"startTime":306.631,"endTime":307.906,"body":"also calls a certificate, but,"},{"startTime":308.206,"endTime":308.416,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":309.361,"endTime":310.351,"body":"which is a set of packets."},{"startTime":311.641,"endTime":311.911,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":311.941,"endTime":317.851,"body":"So like it's, I was gonna say, it's easy"},{"startTime":311.941,"endTime":317.851,"body":"to explain and complicated in practice,"},{"startTime":317.851,"endTime":319.441,"body":"but it's not even easy to explain, right?"},{"startTime":319.441,"endTime":323.941,"body":"Because there's a grammar in ten three"},{"startTime":319.441,"endTime":323.941,"body":"of that RFC, but then there's like, like"},{"startTime":324.001,"endTime":326.101,"body":"12 different exceptions to the grammar."},{"startTime":326.101,"endTime":329.551,"body":"And like all sorts of weird shit happens,"},{"startTime":326.101,"endTime":329.551,"body":"and there's just no reason for any"},{"startTime":329.551,"endTime":331.381,"body":"of this stuff to exist in the format."},{"startTime":331.381,"endTime":335.131,"body":"But it does, uh, it's like a 1990s"},{"startTime":331.381,"endTime":335.131,"body":"format that we still live with"},{"startTime":335.131,"endTime":336.511,"body":"today or some people do, right?"},{"startTime":336.811,"endTime":340.951,"body":"And there was an open P pgp JS of"},{"startTime":336.811,"endTime":340.951,"body":"vulnerability in the handling of"},{"startTime":340.951,"endTime":346.681,"body":"that format, and that vulnerability"},{"startTime":340.951,"endTime":346.681,"body":"was, um, you take a valid signed"},{"startTime":346.681,"endTime":353.581,"body":"PGP message, um, from anywhere,"},{"startTime":346.681,"endTime":353.581,"body":"and you tack onto the end of it, an"},{"startTime":353.581,"endTime":355.051,"body":"additional compressed data packet."},{"startTime":356.371,"endTime":357.661,"body":"And that is the vulnerability."},{"startTime":358.711,"endTime":362.581,"body":"The, so the signature on that message"},{"startTime":358.711,"endTime":362.581,"body":"for what proceeded the message is valid."},{"startTime":362.626,"endTime":366.766,"body":"It, um, the, whatever the, whatever"},{"startTime":362.626,"endTime":366.766,"body":"the hell you tacked into the compressed"},{"startTime":366.766,"endTime":368.836,"body":"data packet at the end is not valid."},{"startTime":368.836,"endTime":371.096,"body":"It's just a random thing you"},{"startTime":368.836,"endTime":371.096,"body":"slap to the end of the message"},{"startTime":371.506,"endTime":375.286,"body":"and open P-G-P-J-S returns the data"},{"startTime":371.506,"endTime":375.286,"body":"from the unsigned thing that you"},{"startTime":375.286,"endTime":376.576,"body":"slapped onto the end of the packet."},{"startTime":376.906,"endTime":377.486,"body":"That's the whole bug."},{"startTime":378.286,"endTime":378.856,"body":"The whole bug,"},{"startTime":379.306,"endTime":381.526,"body":"which is like, I, it's interesting, right?"},{"startTime":381.586,"endTime":387.196,"body":"'cause this is also like an XML dci"},{"startTime":381.586,"endTime":387.196,"body":"SAML vulnerability type situation."},{"startTime":387.196,"endTime":392.086,"body":"It's kind of the same idea, or it's"},{"startTime":387.196,"endTime":392.086,"body":"a similar vibe as, uh, what's, what's"},{"startTime":392.086,"endTime":393.886,"body":"what's called XML signature wrapping."},{"startTime":394.186,"endTime":398.746,"body":"Where like in that format, there's"},{"startTime":394.186,"endTime":398.746,"body":"this idea that like, you have a single"},{"startTime":398.746,"endTime":403.606,"body":"XML document and like a subset of the"},{"startTime":398.746,"endTime":403.606,"body":"tree of that document is the signature"},{"startTime":403.906,"endTime":407.506,"body":"and kind of the way that HTML has"},{"startTime":403.906,"endTime":407.506,"body":"like IDs for like different, like"},{"startTime":407.506,"endTime":408.716,"body":"different elements in the document,"},{"startTime":408.886,"endTime":409.366,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":409.396,"endTime":413.896,"body":"The signature in that little, that subset"},{"startTime":409.396,"endTime":413.896,"body":"of the document has an ID that points back"},{"startTime":413.896,"endTime":415.246,"body":"to the part of the document that's signed."},{"startTime":415.516,"endTime":418.546,"body":"Just saying this out loud, you can"},{"startTime":415.516,"endTime":418.546,"body":"hear how fucking crazy this is, right?"},{"startTime":418.576,"endTime":420.646,"body":"But that's how XML dsig works, right?"},{"startTime":420.706,"endTime":424.066,"body":"But like you sort of give X ML-DSA,"},{"startTime":420.706,"endTime":424.066,"body":"pa, you don't give it a pass."},{"startTime":424.066,"endTime":425.686,"body":"That's literally the worst format."},{"startTime":425.941,"endTime":428.251,"body":"But like literally the"},{"startTime":425.941,"endTime":428.251,"body":"worst format that there is."},{"startTime":428.251,"endTime":428.641,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":428.941,"endTime":431.521,"body":"But like, open PGP isn't XML."},{"startTime":431.671,"endTime":434.131,"body":"Like it's not, it doesn't, it's not"},{"startTime":431.671,"endTime":434.131,"body":"supposed to have that kind of flexi,"},{"startTime":434.176,"endTime":437.071,"body":"it, it doesn't even, it doesn't"},{"startTime":434.176,"endTime":437.071,"body":"benefit from that kind of flexibility."},{"startTime":437.281,"endTime":439.561,"body":"It's not like an extensible"},{"startTime":437.281,"endTime":439.561,"body":"grammar or whatever."},{"startTime":439.561,"endTime":442.651,"body":"It's not like, it's not XML,"},{"startTime":439.561,"endTime":442.651,"body":"but they manage to re recreate"},{"startTime":442.651,"endTime":443.851,"body":"the vulnerability anyways."},{"startTime":444.091,"endTime":448.891,"body":"Um, like a funny thing when you see"},{"startTime":444.091,"endTime":448.891,"body":"like people in that ecosystem responding"},{"startTime":448.891,"endTime":452.551,"body":"to this bug is just like, well, this"},{"startTime":448.891,"endTime":452.551,"body":"is an implementation failure, right?"},{"startTime":452.581,"endTime":454.141,"body":"Like, and it is an"},{"startTime":452.581,"endTime":454.141,"body":"implementation failure, right?"},{"startTime":454.141,"endTime":456.421,"body":"Only open P-G-P-J-S has this bug, right?"},{"startTime":456.811,"endTime":459.631,"body":"But like, there's the obvious"},{"startTime":456.811,"endTime":459.631,"body":"objection to that, right?"},{"startTime":459.631,"endTime":463.381,"body":"Which is it shouldn't be possible"},{"startTime":459.631,"endTime":463.381,"body":"to have this kind of whatever."},{"startTime":463.591,"endTime":464.161,"body":"So that's."},{"startTime":464.701,"endTime":465.031,"body":"Have,"},{"startTime":467.461,"endTime":467.761,"body":"like"},{"startTime":467.881,"endTime":469.381,"body":"have you ever read open pg"},{"startTime":469.471,"endTime":470.191,"body":"p code?"},{"startTime":470.251,"endTime":475.321,"body":"Like my, my theory here, I, I did this"},{"startTime":470.251,"endTime":475.321,"body":"once, um, when I was trying to figure"},{"startTime":475.321,"endTime":481.471,"body":"out like, uh, you can talk to like"},{"startTime":475.321,"endTime":481.471,"body":"UB keys through some PGP protocol."},{"startTime":481.471,"endTime":483.721,"body":"It's separate from PIV and sometimes like"},{"startTime":483.726,"endTime":484.016,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":484.321,"endTime":487.291,"body":"those that lets you do operations"},{"startTime":484.321,"endTime":487.291,"body":"that, that aren't exposed in"},{"startTime":487.291,"endTime":489.271,"body":"piv like curve 2, 5, 5 19."},{"startTime":490.021,"endTime":494.551,"body":"And so I was trying to understand like"},{"startTime":490.021,"endTime":494.551,"body":"how open PGP did this at one point."},{"startTime":495.271,"endTime":500.221,"body":"And I, you know, I went to grad school,"},{"startTime":495.271,"endTime":500.221,"body":"meaning I've dealt with some like"},{"startTime":500.221,"endTime":505.231,"body":"bullshit code that wasn't written by me"},{"startTime":500.221,"endTime":505.231,"body":"more than perhaps in other situations."},{"startTime":505.501,"endTime":508.831,"body":"Um, and PGP was scary."},{"startTime":510.211,"endTime":513.271,"body":"Like I could not figure it"},{"startTime":510.211,"endTime":513.271,"body":"out like for the life of me,"},{"startTime":513.271,"endTime":514.591,"body":"like what the code even did."},{"startTime":514.651,"endTime":518.641,"body":"Like, not even like where it taught,"},{"startTime":514.651,"endTime":518.641,"body":"just it was very like 1990 C code."},{"startTime":519.121,"endTime":519.541,"body":"And I have a"},{"startTime":519.796,"endTime":524.221,"body":"feeling that the packet structure"},{"startTime":519.796,"endTime":524.221,"body":"is like downstream of some"},{"startTime":524.221,"endTime":526.351,"body":"imperative C code that someone wrote"},{"startTime":527.216,"endTime":528.706,"body":"Okay, because I was gonna say,"},{"startTime":528.841,"endTime":532.111,"body":"like got back solved into"},{"startTime":528.841,"endTime":532.111,"body":"some sort of packets format."},{"startTime":532.771,"endTime":539.911,"body":"Um, using whatever like style of"},{"startTime":532.771,"endTime":539.911,"body":"writing c code was acceptable,"},{"startTime":539.911,"endTime":542.731,"body":"popular whatever in 1990."},{"startTime":543.526,"endTime":544.561,"body":"I was gonna say like,"},{"startTime":544.861,"endTime":545.311,"body":"and r"},{"startTime":545.896,"endTime":553.336,"body":"the format seems like it's like"},{"startTime":545.896,"endTime":553.336,"body":"miserable and, and would lead to"},{"startTime":553.336,"endTime":558.496,"body":"a miserable parser with all these"},{"startTime":553.336,"endTime":558.496,"body":"exceptions and like, circular and"},{"startTime":558.496,"endTime":563.266,"body":"like, it's like the fact that you have"},{"startTime":558.496,"endTime":563.266,"body":"nested, nested, nested like types."},{"startTime":563.266,"endTime":565.636,"body":"Like it's a key, but it's also a packet."},{"startTime":565.636,"endTime":566.986,"body":"But it might also be a certificate."},{"startTime":566.986,"endTime":569.896,"body":"Like I would think it would be the"},{"startTime":566.986,"endTime":569.896,"body":"other way around, but I could totally"},{"startTime":569.896,"endTime":571.186,"body":"see it being like, no, no, no."},{"startTime":571.366,"endTime":575.416,"body":"We have code that resulted in a"},{"startTime":571.366,"endTime":575.416,"body":"format, not a format that resulted"},{"startTime":575.416,"endTime":577.306,"body":"in this gnarly, uh, parser code."},{"startTime":577.726,"endTime":578.236,"body":"I dunno."},{"startTime":578.751,"endTime":581.871,"body":"that's, that's my understanding of the"},{"startTime":578.751,"endTime":581.871,"body":"history of PGP, is that the, the, the tail"},{"startTime":581.871,"endTime":583.371,"body":"wagged the dog in terms of the standard."},{"startTime":583.371,"endTime":586.731,"body":"The standard came, well,"},{"startTime":583.371,"endTime":586.731,"body":"well, after the set of initial"},{"startTime":586.731,"endTime":589.546,"body":"needs were, were established,"},{"startTime":589.846,"endTime":590.626,"body":"Ah, so"},{"startTime":591.111,"endTime":592.071,"body":"it just sort of grew outta that."},{"startTime":592.741,"endTime":595.806,"body":"I, not that I I don't think that's"},{"startTime":592.741,"endTime":595.806,"body":"necessarily a bad thing, right?"},{"startTime":595.806,"endTime":598.566,"body":"Like I think more standards"},{"startTime":595.806,"endTime":598.566,"body":"should stuff, but like, you, you"},{"startTime":598.566,"endTime":599.221,"body":"wanna start with something good."},{"startTime":599.806,"endTime":600.106,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":600.226,"endTime":600.766,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":601.186,"endTime":601.696,"body":"in, in"},{"startTime":601.846,"endTime":602.716,"body":"And usually,"},{"startTime":603.046,"endTime":603.616,"body":"the nineties."},{"startTime":604.096,"endTime":604.456,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":604.456,"endTime":606.766,"body":"I, I think the history, the"},{"startTime":604.456,"endTime":606.766,"body":"process itself is, is justifiable."},{"startTime":606.796,"endTime":607.456,"body":"It's more the,"},{"startTime":608.356,"endTime":609.181,"body":"the timing is unfortunate."},{"startTime":610.214,"endTime":610.424,"body":"sorry."},{"startTime":610.634,"endTime":615.104,"body":"If I recall correctly, like the early"},{"startTime":610.634,"endTime":615.104,"body":"versions of like the dot doc file for,"},{"startTime":615.104,"endTime":621.319,"body":"for Microsoft Office was just like, um,"},{"startTime":615.104,"endTime":621.319,"body":"you just mem copied, like, like, or,"},{"startTime":621.324,"endTime":625.694,"body":"or me mapped the struct that they used"},{"startTime":621.324,"endTime":625.694,"body":"to represent a document in the program"},{"startTime":625.724,"endTime":628.334,"body":"to disc and then like un and mapped it."},{"startTime":628.634,"endTime":633.824,"body":"And this had obvious problems, um,"},{"startTime":628.634,"endTime":633.824,"body":"for years and vol eventually someone"},{"startTime":633.824,"endTime":636.434,"body":"solved it by introducing XML and Doc X."},{"startTime":637.064,"endTime":643.484,"body":"But like same, same story I think type"},{"startTime":637.064,"endTime":643.484,"body":"of thing where like the format, it's"},{"startTime":643.484,"endTime":646.754,"body":"perfectly fine to do things without"},{"startTime":643.484,"endTime":646.754,"body":"standards, but like if you're operating"},{"startTime":646.754,"endTime":650.984,"body":"under the constraints of the nineties,"},{"startTime":646.754,"endTime":650.984,"body":"it's likely that your format is like."},{"startTime":651.914,"endTime":653.624,"body":"Uh, a little insane."},{"startTime":653.624,"endTime":657.374,"body":"It is not necessarily what it would look"},{"startTime":653.624,"endTime":657.374,"body":"like if you, you know, built something"},{"startTime":657.374,"endTime":659.534,"body":"without a standard that used a format."},{"startTime":659.744,"endTime":660.209,"body":"Um, today."},{"startTime":660.974,"endTime":661.274,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":662.854,"endTime":667.259,"body":"Yeah, I am not sure we've ever like"},{"startTime":662.854,"endTime":667.259,"body":"done a proper PGP takedown before,"},{"startTime":667.529,"endTime":669.624,"body":"and there's like a lot wrong with PGP."},{"startTime":670.439,"endTime":675.329,"body":"Um, like this, like the"},{"startTime":670.439,"endTime":675.329,"body":"signature format is crazy."},{"startTime":675.329,"endTime":678.299,"body":"The way they handle"},{"startTime":675.329,"endTime":678.299,"body":"authentication is crazy."},{"startTime":678.389,"endTime":679.949,"body":"Like there's all this crazy stuff in it."},{"startTime":679.949,"endTime":683.189,"body":"Like I don't if there's anything like"},{"startTime":679.949,"endTime":683.189,"body":"top line important to talk about there."},{"startTime":683.189,"endTime":687.239,"body":"I think like generally if you're"},{"startTime":683.189,"endTime":687.239,"body":"kind of paying attention to us,"},{"startTime":687.329,"endTime":690.659,"body":"I think pretty much everyone"},{"startTime":687.329,"endTime":690.659,"body":"here mostly is written off PGP."},{"startTime":691.379,"endTime":694.139,"body":"Every time this comes up on a message"},{"startTime":691.379,"endTime":694.139,"body":"board, I'm always like, please find me"},{"startTime":694.139,"endTime":698.639,"body":"one cryptographer, just one anywhere,"},{"startTime":694.139,"endTime":698.639,"body":"any, any cryptography engineer that"},{"startTime":698.639,"endTime":703.379,"body":"works anywhere that will stick up"},{"startTime":698.639,"endTime":703.379,"body":"for pgp and I'm not sure that exists."},{"startTime":703.439,"endTime":703.889,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":703.979,"endTime":709.469,"body":"So like, going through the litany of"},{"startTime":703.979,"endTime":709.469,"body":"all the things that PGP does not get"},{"startTime":709.469,"endTime":715.619,"body":"right, um, is like, I don't know how"},{"startTime":709.469,"endTime":715.619,"body":"super productive that is, but I think"},{"startTime":715.619,"endTime":720.929,"body":"there's a more important thing which"},{"startTime":715.619,"endTime":720.929,"body":"is like PGP has two use cases, right?"},{"startTime":721.229,"endTime":724.619,"body":"It is a package signing system"},{"startTime":721.229,"endTime":724.619,"body":"for packages that people"},{"startTime":724.619,"endTime":725.639,"body":"don't check signatures on."},{"startTime":726.389,"endTime":730.589,"body":"Um, and it is a secure messaging"},{"startTime":726.389,"endTime":730.589,"body":"system for messages that no"},{"startTime":730.589,"endTime":731.519,"body":"one will ever care to read."},{"startTime":732.374,"endTime":738.254,"body":"Or, or it's, it's a way to encrypt data,"},{"startTime":732.374,"endTime":738.254,"body":"but usually that data is a message, not,"},{"startTime":738.344,"endTime":744.494,"body":"uh, not like a file for format, although"},{"startTime":738.344,"endTime":744.494,"body":"it is also used to encrypt like files."},{"startTime":745.229,"endTime":747.539,"body":"Yeah, that's, I mean,"},{"startTime":745.229,"endTime":747.539,"body":"that's a fair point, right?"},{"startTime":747.539,"endTime":749.279,"body":"So it's actually, it's"},{"startTime":747.539,"endTime":749.279,"body":"three things, right?"},{"startTime":749.279,"endTime":753.029,"body":"It's, it's, it's the two things I said,"},{"startTime":749.279,"endTime":753.029,"body":"and then it's also like encrypting"},{"startTime":753.029,"endTime":755.729,"body":"files and for like a very long time."},{"startTime":755.759,"endTime":760.409,"body":"A thing that really pissed me off was"},{"startTime":755.759,"endTime":760.409,"body":"that none of the, like, like Mac Os for"},{"startTime":760.409,"endTime":765.059,"body":"instance, doesn't have like a tool to"},{"startTime":760.409,"endTime":765.059,"body":"just password protect and encrypt a file"},{"startTime":765.359,"endTime":768.179,"body":"that you have to download something"},{"startTime":765.359,"endTime":768.179,"body":"to do that, which means that"},{"startTime":768.179,"endTime":769.679,"body":"people, you know, download, like."},{"startTime":770.699,"endTime":772.589,"body":"Whatever the zip program is, and then"},{"startTime":772.589,"endTime":774.839,"body":"that's a, its own"},{"startTime":772.589,"endTime":774.839,"body":"complete nightmare, right?"},{"startTime":775.109,"endTime":780.419,"body":"And like for that problem, like you should"},{"startTime":775.109,"endTime":780.419,"body":"use age or aga or whatever, how you,"},{"startTime":780.449,"endTime":782.084,"body":"however you pronounce Felipe's thing in,"},{"startTime":782.219,"endTime":783.539,"body":"in preference to pgp."},{"startTime":784.109,"endTime":788.369,"body":"But like the, the big problems"},{"startTime":784.109,"endTime":788.369,"body":"with PGP aren't going to screw you"},{"startTime":788.369,"endTime":790.184,"body":"if you're just encrypting a file,"},{"startTime":790.739,"endTime":791.189,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":791.399,"endTime":794.219,"body":"Like, I mean, I guess it has a"},{"startTime":791.399,"endTime":794.219,"body":"really bad password, K, d, F, so"},{"startTime":794.219,"endTime":795.599,"body":"don't password, like, use like a"},{"startTime":795.724,"endTime":798.359,"body":"a use a random password or"},{"startTime":795.724,"endTime":798.359,"body":"something like that, right?"},{"startTime":798.479,"endTime":799.829,"body":"But, but that aside, right?"},{"startTime":799.919,"endTime":800.549,"body":"KDF now."},{"startTime":803.579,"endTime":804.749,"body":"I can't remember what it was."},{"startTime":804.749,"endTime":805.859,"body":"I just remember that it's bad."},{"startTime":806.069,"endTime":810.239,"body":"Um, but like, so, so there's"},{"startTime":806.069,"endTime":810.239,"body":"those three things, right?"},{"startTime":810.329,"endTime":813.719,"body":"But like, I think the, like"},{"startTime":810.329,"endTime":813.719,"body":"the, the important thing"},{"startTime":813.719,"endTime":816.719,"body":"to talk about is PGP email."},{"startTime":817.094,"endTime":817.424,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":817.424,"endTime":822.314,"body":"It's, it's, and it's, it's more broadly"},{"startTime":817.424,"endTime":822.314,"body":"any attempt to get email to be secure"},{"startTime":822.314,"endTime":826.424,"body":"and like this is a thing that has been"},{"startTime":822.314,"endTime":826.424,"body":"setting, this is like the fifth thing in"},{"startTime":826.424,"endTime":829.994,"body":"this conversation we're having, where I've"},{"startTime":826.424,"endTime":829.994,"body":"pointed out that something sets me off."},{"startTime":829.994,"endTime":830.444,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":830.504,"endTime":832.184,"body":"But this one really sets me off, right?"},{"startTime":832.214,"endTime":836.174,"body":"Which is like, there's so for obvious"},{"startTime":832.214,"endTime":836.174,"body":"reasons, we are in a time period where"},{"startTime":836.174,"endTime":839.529,"body":"we're reading lots of security guides"},{"startTime":836.174,"endTime":839.529,"body":"for activists, it's a big problem."},{"startTime":840.179,"endTime":843.689,"body":"Lots of activists, you know,"},{"startTime":840.179,"endTime":843.689,"body":"doing important work and don't"},{"startTime":843.689,"endTime":844.799,"body":"wanna be surveilled, right?"},{"startTime":845.099,"endTime":848.909,"body":"So you've got all these security guides"},{"startTime":845.099,"endTime":848.909,"body":"and there's like, there's two really big"},{"startTime":848.909,"endTime":853.469,"body":"tells for me when I'm reading these things"},{"startTime":848.909,"endTime":853.469,"body":"that like, whoever wrote this was not"},{"startTime":853.469,"endTime":857.909,"body":"super plugged in to, you know, serious"},{"startTime":853.469,"endTime":857.909,"body":"kind of digital security stuff, right?"},{"startTime":858.179,"endTime":861.569,"body":"Number one is when they uncritically"},{"startTime":858.179,"endTime":861.569,"body":"recommend that people use Firefox."},{"startTime":861.839,"endTime":866.279,"body":"Um, I'm fine if you have a, well, a"},{"startTime":861.839,"endTime":866.279,"body":"well-reasoned Firefox argument, but if it"},{"startTime":866.279,"endTime":868.469,"body":"just says use Firefox, it's open source."},{"startTime":868.469,"endTime":871.019,"body":"You don't want to, you know, be"},{"startTime":868.469,"endTime":871.019,"body":"up in Google or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":871.289,"endTime":873.179,"body":"Um, like that's a, a red flag for me."},{"startTime":873.179,"endTime":876.209,"body":"'cause that's not, that's not that"},{"startTime":873.179,"endTime":876.209,"body":"simple that, but the other thing"},{"startTime":876.209,"endTime":879.449,"body":"is, any attempt to get people to"},{"startTime":876.209,"endTime":879.449,"body":"use PGP for email, and you see"},{"startTime":879.449,"endTime":883.559,"body":"this all the time, like this is"},{"startTime":879.449,"endTime":883.559,"body":"like a, a really big recommendation"},{"startTime":883.559,"endTime":884.429,"body":"that people try to give people."},{"startTime":884.429,"endTime":888.509,"body":"Like, they're trying to get"},{"startTime":884.429,"endTime":888.509,"body":"people to do encrypted email"},{"startTime":888.809,"endTime":893.669,"body":"and encrypted email is"},{"startTime":888.809,"endTime":893.669,"body":"bad, can't be made to work."},{"startTime":894.239,"endTime":895.049,"body":"Um, I don't"},{"startTime":895.109,"endTime":898.679,"body":"why is encrypted email bad"},{"startTime":895.109,"endTime":898.679,"body":"and can't be made to work?"},{"startTime":899.259,"endTime":899.459,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":899.459,"endTime":901.769,"body":"You, you, you, you, you"},{"startTime":899.459,"endTime":901.769,"body":"can just disagree with me."},{"startTime":902.219,"endTime":902.549,"body":"Ba"},{"startTime":902.704,"endTime":909.629,"body":"no, no, I'm, I really, I like, tell me,"},{"startTime":902.704,"endTime":909.629,"body":"uh, I, I agree with you almost entirely."},{"startTime":909.809,"endTime":911.579,"body":"Please tell me, because I literally"},{"startTime":911.579,"endTime":911.759,"body":"was"},{"startTime":911.759,"endTime":915.929,"body":"to like, scratch my brain and explain"},{"startTime":911.759,"endTime":915.929,"body":"this to a normie the other day."},{"startTime":915.929,"endTime":918.659,"body":"And, uh, and they were like,"},{"startTime":915.929,"endTime":918.659,"body":"well, what, well, why is that bad?"},{"startTime":918.659,"endTime":920.789,"body":"And, um, and then so on."},{"startTime":922.289,"endTime":925.529,"body":"Well, I mean, I think, I think"},{"startTime":922.289,"endTime":925.529,"body":"David, so I was talking to Deirdre."},{"startTime":925.529,"endTime":927.839,"body":"I saw Deirdre's face and then"},{"startTime":925.529,"endTime":927.839,"body":"a blog post that I wrote like"},{"startTime":927.839,"endTime":929.249,"body":"five years ago was in my face."},{"startTime":929.249,"endTime":930.089,"body":"'cause she pushed the button."},{"startTime":930.389,"endTime":932.519,"body":"I think, I think David"},{"startTime":930.389,"endTime":932.519,"body":"should, should kick this off."},{"startTime":932.519,"endTime":934.469,"body":"Otherwise it's just gonna be"},{"startTime":932.519,"endTime":934.469,"body":"me talking this whole time."},{"startTime":935.459,"endTime":935.969,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":935.969,"endTime":941.009,"body":"Well, I, I think we should, uh, go through"},{"startTime":935.969,"endTime":941.009,"body":"this blog post, by which I mean, I will"},{"startTime":941.009,"endTime":946.619,"body":"read out loud and pretend I am that"},{"startTime":941.009,"endTime":946.619,"body":"streamer who shall not be named, um, this"},{"startTime":946.619,"endTime":948.689,"body":"blog post called Stop Encrypted email."},{"startTime":948.869,"endTime":950.219,"body":"Stop using encrypted email."},{"startTime":950.219,"endTime":951.779,"body":"I already screwed up reading it."},{"startTime":952.259,"endTime":953.999,"body":"Now you're reading, you're"},{"startTime":952.259,"endTime":953.999,"body":"reading it about as well as"},{"startTime":953.999,"endTime":954.899,"body":"the YouTuber would read it."},{"startTime":955.199,"endTime":959.969,"body":"um, uh, which Thomas wrote,"},{"startTime":955.199,"endTime":959.969,"body":"um, in 2020 that I thought"},{"startTime":959.969,"endTime":961.559,"body":"this was older than this That"},{"startTime":961.559,"endTime":962.069,"body":"doesn't seem right."},{"startTime":962.364,"endTime":962.699,"body":"I, I"},{"startTime":962.839,"endTime":963.929,"body":"20 before the"},{"startTime":964.014,"endTime":967.289,"body":"It, it has a, it has a timeless,"},{"startTime":964.014,"endTime":967.289,"body":"it has a timeless quality about it."},{"startTime":967.874,"endTime":974.234,"body":"it does, um, but it begins saying that"},{"startTime":967.874,"endTime":974.234,"body":"email is unsafe and cannot be safe."},{"startTime":974.234,"endTime":977.084,"body":"The tools we have today to"},{"startTime":974.234,"endTime":977.084,"body":"encrypt email are badly flawed."},{"startTime":977.324,"endTime":980.714,"body":"Even if those flaws were fixed,"},{"startTime":977.324,"endTime":980.714,"body":"email would remain unsafe."},{"startTime":980.924,"endTime":986.144,"body":"Its problems cannot be plausibly, be"},{"startTime":980.924,"endTime":986.144,"body":"mitigated, avoid using encrypted email,"},{"startTime":986.144,"endTime":987.644,"body":"which I think was just Thomas's point"},{"startTime":988.379,"endTime":993.569,"body":"I think I write in a way that is difficult"},{"startTime":988.379,"endTime":993.569,"body":"for people to read on streaming things."},{"startTime":994.089,"endTime":996.739,"body":"Eh, well, we're doing it."},{"startTime":997.544,"endTime":998.294,"body":"we're we're doing it."},{"startTime":998.414,"endTime":1002.254,"body":"Um, and as Thomas noted, technologists"},{"startTime":998.414,"endTime":1002.254,"body":"hate this argument because few of"},{"startTime":1002.254,"endTime":1004.684,"body":"them specialize in cryptography"},{"startTime":1002.254,"endTime":1004.684,"body":"or privacy, but all of them are"},{"startTime":1004.684,"endTime":1008.674,"body":"interested in it and everyone"},{"startTime":1004.684,"endTime":1008.674,"body":"wants to use encrypted email tools."},{"startTime":1008.914,"endTime":1012.334,"body":"I don't know if by everyone you really"},{"startTime":1008.914,"endTime":1012.334,"body":"mean everyone, but I think you mean people"},{"startTime":1012.334,"endTime":1014.134,"body":"who write guides for journalists online."},{"startTime":1016.233,"endTime":1017.313,"body":"I think it's also nerd currency."},{"startTime":1017.313,"endTime":1018.553,"body":"I mean, I definitely, when I was."},{"startTime":1019.358,"endTime":1020.643,"body":"A, a, a, a teenager."},{"startTime":1020.643,"endTime":1022.203,"body":"I was like, man, this is"},{"startTime":1020.643,"endTime":1022.203,"body":"the coolest thing ever."},{"startTime":1022.203,"endTime":1027.063,"body":"I want to encrypt emails to my friends,"},{"startTime":1022.203,"endTime":1027.063,"body":"which, you know, didn't go well, but"},{"startTime":1028.323,"endTime":1029.313,"body":"it was like nerd credit at the time."},{"startTime":1030.303,"endTime":1035.883,"body":"I think, I think technologists see"},{"startTime":1030.303,"endTime":1035.883,"body":"like, I can make this work in the"},{"startTime":1035.883,"endTime":1041.823,"body":"Golden case and you may be able to"},{"startTime":1035.883,"endTime":1041.823,"body":"do that, but a lot of security and"},{"startTime":1041.823,"endTime":1044.523,"body":"privacy is like, is not the golden case."},{"startTime":1044.853,"endTime":1047.673,"body":"It's the average case"},{"startTime":1044.853,"endTime":1047.673,"body":"or often the worst case."},{"startTime":1047.673,"endTime":1052.293,"body":"And a lot of that comes down to"},{"startTime":1047.673,"endTime":1052.293,"body":"kind of usability and like defaults"},{"startTime":1052.293,"endTime":1057.393,"body":"of the whole system, which is"},{"startTime":1052.293,"endTime":1057.393,"body":"not a technologist sort of thing."},{"startTime":1057.423,"endTime":1060.663,"body":"It's like a usability"},{"startTime":1057.423,"endTime":1060.663,"body":"and design sort of thing."},{"startTime":1061.323,"endTime":1067.473,"body":"And that's not necessarily where our,"},{"startTime":1061.323,"endTime":1067.473,"body":"uh, that has evolved over time with"},{"startTime":1067.473,"endTime":1069.213,"body":"the tools that we have available today."},{"startTime":1069.333,"endTime":1074.313,"body":"And that was not part of how"},{"startTime":1069.333,"endTime":1074.313,"body":"encrypted email came about really."},{"startTime":1074.913,"endTime":1078.663,"body":"Yeah, so we have like the LARP case"},{"startTime":1074.913,"endTime":1078.663,"body":"that Thomas mentions here of just, of"},{"startTime":1078.663,"endTime":1081.933,"body":"what, you know, William was describing"},{"startTime":1078.663,"endTime":1081.933,"body":"of Oh, let's send encrypted emails"},{"startTime":1081.933,"endTime":1083.283,"body":"to each other because it's cool."},{"startTime":1083.943,"endTime":1085.983,"body":"Um, and I set up the software."},{"startTime":1086.793,"endTime":1091.653,"body":"Um, but then we have the case that Thomas"},{"startTime":1086.793,"endTime":1091.653,"body":"refers to going on in which security does"},{"startTime":1091.653,"endTime":1095.463,"body":"matter because messages can be material"},{"startTime":1091.653,"endTime":1095.463,"body":"to civil cases subject to discovery,"},{"startTime":1095.463,"endTime":1096.993,"body":"subpoenaed by law enforcement action."},{"startTime":1097.488,"endTime":1100.413,"body":"All that fun stuff, journalists,"},{"startTime":1097.488,"endTime":1100.413,"body":"confidential sources."},{"startTime":1100.908,"endTime":1101.303,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":1101.388,"endTime":1103.968,"body":"and in this case you have"},{"startTime":1101.388,"endTime":1103.968,"body":"like actual harms coming, um,"},{"startTime":1103.973,"endTime":1105.043,"body":"where if the message leaks,"},{"startTime":1105.923,"endTime":1111.038,"body":"I think it's fundamentally true that"},{"startTime":1105.923,"endTime":1111.038,"body":"almost all PGP encrypted emails are LARP."},{"startTime":1111.668,"endTime":1112.088,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1112.278,"endTime":1115.578,"body":"They are, they're encrypted because,"},{"startTime":1112.278,"endTime":1115.578,"body":"you know, people feel cool, encrypting"},{"startTime":1115.578,"endTime":1116.688,"body":"it, they're like play acting."},{"startTime":1116.718,"endTime":1120.378,"body":"It's like a, you know, Nerf swords version"},{"startTime":1116.718,"endTime":1120.378,"body":"of, of whatever it is they're doing."},{"startTime":1120.378,"endTime":1120.678,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1120.918,"endTime":1126.318,"body":"Um, the, the, the subtext here is like,"},{"startTime":1120.918,"endTime":1126.318,"body":"um, when you talk about how shitty"},{"startTime":1126.318,"endTime":1129.888,"body":"encrypted email is, people are always"},{"startTime":1126.318,"endTime":1129.888,"body":"like, well, what else are you gonna use?"},{"startTime":1129.888,"endTime":1131.388,"body":"Like, what's, what's,"},{"startTime":1129.888,"endTime":1131.388,"body":"what's your suggestion?"},{"startTime":1131.388,"endTime":1131.598,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1131.598,"endTime":1134.268,"body":"And if you like, say signal, they'll"},{"startTime":1131.598,"endTime":1134.268,"body":"like, you know, scoff or whatever."},{"startTime":1134.268,"endTime":1134.598,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1134.868,"endTime":1135.348,"body":"But like,"},{"startTime":1135.433,"endTime":1137.753,"body":"signal was created by the"},{"startTime":1135.433,"endTime":1137.753,"body":"US government, Thomas."},{"startTime":1139.758,"endTime":1142.998,"body":"I, I don't, I don't think that's"},{"startTime":1139.758,"endTime":1142.998,"body":"true, but continuing right?"},{"startTime":1142.998,"endTime":1149.598,"body":"Like, um, so, so like you, it always"},{"startTime":1142.998,"endTime":1149.598,"body":"kind of boils down to like, you know."},{"startTime":1150.543,"endTime":1154.293,"body":"Like the choices are sending plain"},{"startTime":1150.543,"endTime":1154.293,"body":"text email or sending encrypted email."},{"startTime":1154.473,"endTime":1157.983,"body":"And so you sound crazy when you"},{"startTime":1154.473,"endTime":1157.983,"body":"tell people not to send encrypted"},{"startTime":1157.983,"endTime":1159.363,"body":"email 'cause it might go wrong."},{"startTime":1159.813,"endTime":1162.783,"body":"The thing I think people need to"},{"startTime":1159.813,"endTime":1162.783,"body":"get their heads around is that those"},{"startTime":1162.783,"endTime":1164.973,"body":"are not the only two choices, right?"},{"startTime":1165.183,"endTime":1168.603,"body":"The, the more important choice,"},{"startTime":1165.183,"endTime":1168.603,"body":"like the important third choice is"},{"startTime":1168.843,"endTime":1171.333,"body":"don't send the email to begin with."},{"startTime":1171.543,"endTime":1171.993,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1172.083,"endTime":1177.153,"body":"Like, if you're coordinating a protest"},{"startTime":1172.083,"endTime":1177.153,"body":"like thing or a direct action or something"},{"startTime":1177.153,"endTime":1181.803,"body":"like that, like there are very good"},{"startTime":1177.153,"endTime":1181.803,"body":"reasons not to trust any secure messaging"},{"startTime":1181.803,"endTime":1183.243,"body":"system with those messages, right?"},{"startTime":1183.243,"endTime":1184.143,"body":"Like that's opsec."},{"startTime":1184.443,"endTime":1187.683,"body":"Um, and like almost all of"},{"startTime":1184.443,"endTime":1187.683,"body":"the discussions about secure"},{"startTime":1187.683,"endTime":1189.663,"body":"email don't have that premise."},{"startTime":1189.663,"endTime":1193.023,"body":"They all have the premise that the"},{"startTime":1189.663,"endTime":1193.023,"body":"message has to get sent, right?"},{"startTime":1193.053,"endTime":1194.193,"body":"And that can't be true."},{"startTime":1194.967,"endTime":1198.027,"body":"I do think there are some systems"},{"startTime":1194.967,"endTime":1198.027,"body":"deployed out there that are"},{"startTime":1198.027,"endTime":1202.797,"body":"like in our little email system"},{"startTime":1198.027,"endTime":1202.797,"body":"where we control all the ends."},{"startTime":1203.187,"endTime":1207.387,"body":"We require PGP, we require, you know,"},{"startTime":1203.187,"endTime":1207.387,"body":"there's other, there's other things that"},{"startTime":1207.387,"endTime":1212.457,"body":"are kind of like PGP and that, like you"},{"startTime":1207.387,"endTime":1212.457,"body":"have a, a message encryption key that's"},{"startTime":1212.457,"endTime":1218.367,"body":"encrypted under some other key, but it's"},{"startTime":1212.457,"endTime":1218.367,"body":"all still like bolted onto email and you"},{"startTime":1218.367,"endTime":1225.237,"body":"can still send a plain text email and it's"},{"startTime":1218.367,"endTime":1225.237,"body":"really hard to enforce that in practice."},{"startTime":1225.562,"endTime":1225.852,"body":"What"},{"startTime":1226.246,"endTime":1228.616,"body":"stuff is all mostly smm, which is like,"},{"startTime":1229.606,"endTime":1229.756,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1230.056,"endTime":1230.686,"body":"BU's different."},{"startTime":1231.046,"endTime":1234.676,"body":"separate, discuss technology, but"},{"startTime":1231.046,"endTime":1234.676,"body":"like, kind of same concept, but"},{"startTime":1234.676,"endTime":1240.436,"body":"like there are ways to deploy SMM"},{"startTime":1234.676,"endTime":1240.436,"body":"mildly effectively within the context"},{"startTime":1240.436,"endTime":1242.296,"body":"of a single enterprise and get"},{"startTime":1242.446,"endTime":1242.956,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1243.736,"endTime":1246.616,"body":"something maybe out of it, um, out of"},{"startTime":1246.631,"endTime":1249.676,"body":"I, I, I think most of"},{"startTime":1246.631,"endTime":1249.676,"body":"these arguments will."},{"startTime":1249.766,"endTime":1250.906,"body":"Apply to s mine as well."},{"startTime":1252.901,"endTime":1253.891,"body":"Yeah, I would agree with that."},{"startTime":1253.891,"endTime":1259.641,"body":"I mean, SIM is the, the, the basic"},{"startTime":1253.891,"endTime":1259.641,"body":"flaw is, is present in both cases."},{"startTime":1259.711,"endTime":1259.891,"body":"the"},{"startTime":1259.891,"endTime":1262.741,"body":"the only difference is that SIM has"},{"startTime":1259.891,"endTime":1262.741,"body":"the, the benefit of actually having"},{"startTime":1262.741,"endTime":1265.426,"body":"a community, like a standards body"},{"startTime":1262.741,"endTime":1265.426,"body":"that's, I guess, somewhat serious."},{"startTime":1269.401,"endTime":1274.021,"body":"Um, and you can configure like most,"},{"startTime":1269.401,"endTime":1274.021,"body":"I think web like organization like"},{"startTime":1274.021,"endTime":1278.341,"body":"enterprise web mail now to be like,"},{"startTime":1274.021,"endTime":1278.341,"body":"you use SMM and you have to use SMM"},{"startTime":1278.341,"endTime":1281.221,"body":"for emails within my organization."},{"startTime":1281.221,"endTime":1283.861,"body":"And like, here's the key server now."},{"startTime":1283.861,"endTime":1286.651,"body":"Like, does that actually do"},{"startTime":1283.861,"endTime":1286.651,"body":"anything if like the keys are"},{"startTime":1286.681,"endTime":1287.911,"body":"all escrowed somewhere else?"},{"startTime":1287.941,"endTime":1288.361,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1288.361,"endTime":1292.501,"body":"But if you're really concerned about"},{"startTime":1288.361,"endTime":1292.501,"body":"the emails existing in plain text"},{"startTime":1292.501,"endTime":1297.121,"body":"on the mail provider server, you can"},{"startTime":1292.501,"endTime":1297.121,"body":"understand why people might like this."},{"startTime":1298.011,"endTime":1302.271,"body":"So you are thankfully giving"},{"startTime":1298.011,"endTime":1302.271,"body":"up on the, uh, premise of just"},{"startTime":1302.271,"endTime":1303.231,"body":"reading this straight through,"},{"startTime":1303.901,"endTime":1304.561,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1304.921,"endTime":1305.731,"body":"I appreciate."},{"startTime":1305.791,"endTime":1306.331,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1306.391,"endTime":1310.141,"body":"So like what I'm gonna do is just"},{"startTime":1306.391,"endTime":1310.141,"body":"introduce the first argument and then"},{"startTime":1310.141,"endTime":1311.821,"body":"let you discuss and tell me if I'm wrong."},{"startTime":1312.331,"endTime":1312.856,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1313.081,"endTime":1318.091,"body":"So my first argument, no matter"},{"startTime":1313.081,"endTime":1318.091,"body":"whether you're using sime or PGP or"},{"startTime":1318.091,"endTime":1321.811,"body":"the secure email system of the future,"},{"startTime":1318.091,"endTime":1321.811,"body":"you have this problem, which is that."},{"startTime":1322.981,"endTime":1326.551,"body":"Ultimately, if you're using a system"},{"startTime":1322.981,"endTime":1326.551,"body":"that defaults to plain text, wants"},{"startTime":1326.551,"endTime":1330.511,"body":"to send plain text, eventually you're"},{"startTime":1326.551,"endTime":1330.511,"body":"gonna send plain text, which is to"},{"startTime":1330.511,"endTime":1335.491,"body":"say like everybody who's ever used PG"},{"startTime":1330.511,"endTime":1335.491,"body":"p or SM and anger, and at a security"},{"startTime":1335.491,"endTime":1338.731,"body":"consultancy I ran the mid two thousands,"},{"startTime":1335.491,"endTime":1338.731,"body":"we used SM for everything, right?"},{"startTime":1338.971,"endTime":1345.051,"body":"Like inevitably somebody will respond to"},{"startTime":1338.971,"endTime":1345.051,"body":"your message with an unencrypted reply,"},{"startTime":1345.421,"endTime":1349.231,"body":"which will include your message"},{"startTime":1345.421,"endTime":1349.231,"body":"that you sent originally encrypted."},{"startTime":1349.801,"endTime":1353.101,"body":"Everybody who has ever used"},{"startTime":1349.801,"endTime":1353.101,"body":"secure email has seen this happen."},{"startTime":1353.521,"endTime":1356.941,"body":"This is a thing if you are, if you're"},{"startTime":1353.521,"endTime":1356.941,"body":"a journalist or if you're like,"},{"startTime":1356.941,"endTime":1361.471,"body":"you know, you know, organizing or"},{"startTime":1356.941,"endTime":1361.471,"body":"anything like that, that can't happen."},{"startTime":1361.471,"endTime":1364.261,"body":"You're talking about like"},{"startTime":1361.471,"endTime":1364.261,"body":"life and death there, right?"},{"startTime":1364.351,"endTime":1369.481,"body":"Um, and so the first reason that secure"},{"startTime":1364.351,"endTime":1369.481,"body":"email is completely broken, right?"},{"startTime":1369.481,"endTime":1370.471,"body":"Is that that can happen."},{"startTime":1371.161,"endTime":1372.451,"body":"Tell me if I'm wrong, or"},{"startTime":1372.451,"endTime":1373.231,"body":"tell me or"},{"startTime":1373.606,"endTime":1377.806,"body":"I think I think of your, this whole"},{"startTime":1373.606,"endTime":1377.806,"body":"blog post from 2020, this is the"},{"startTime":1377.806,"endTime":1382.846,"body":"strongest argument, and this was also"},{"startTime":1377.806,"endTime":1382.846,"body":"the argument that some people had about"},{"startTime":1382.906,"endTime":1388.366,"body":"the old school variant of, I think it"},{"startTime":1382.906,"endTime":1388.366,"body":"was Signal when it was Text secure."},{"startTime":1388.666,"endTime":1390.676,"body":"Text secure, which was like."},{"startTime":1391.066,"endTime":1395.151,"body":"It was encrypted chat over SMS."},{"startTime":1395.866,"endTime":1401.386,"body":"Um, it was using the best, you know,"},{"startTime":1395.866,"endTime":1401.386,"body":"uh, ratcheting, uh, cryptography on"},{"startTime":1401.386,"endTime":1403.666,"body":"top of the SMS messaging protocol."},{"startTime":1403.666,"endTime":1408.286,"body":"That was the, in the clear, visible"},{"startTime":1403.666,"endTime":1408.286,"body":"to your mobile provider, uh,"},{"startTime":1408.316,"endTime":1410.986,"body":"messaging protocol, uh, to start."},{"startTime":1411.106,"endTime":1414.496,"body":"And that it was definitely"},{"startTime":1411.106,"endTime":1414.496,"body":"like, be careful."},{"startTime":1414.496,"endTime":1418.696,"body":"You can send a end-to-end encrypted"},{"startTime":1414.496,"endTime":1418.696,"body":"chat message on Tech secure."},{"startTime":1419.056,"endTime":1422.146,"body":"Or you may, you know, if you are"},{"startTime":1419.056,"endTime":1422.146,"body":"sending it to the wrong person,"},{"startTime":1422.146,"endTime":1423.676,"body":"you may be sending it in the clear."},{"startTime":1423.766,"endTime":1428.056,"body":"And this is, this is also kind of what"},{"startTime":1423.766,"endTime":1428.056,"body":"I happens in my iMessage to this day,"},{"startTime":1428.056,"endTime":1433.606,"body":"which is like you use one client to send"},{"startTime":1428.056,"endTime":1433.606,"body":"a chat message, but you may or may not"},{"startTime":1433.606,"endTime":1439.246,"body":"know that going to the non iPhone receiver"},{"startTime":1433.606,"endTime":1439.246,"body":"phone number, it will be in the clear."},{"startTime":1439.636,"endTime":1443.236,"body":"Uh, and if it goes to the iPhone"},{"startTime":1439.636,"endTime":1443.236,"body":"receiver or iMessage receiver,"},{"startTime":1443.236,"endTime":1444.646,"body":"it will be end-to-end encrypted."},{"startTime":1445.066,"endTime":1445.696,"body":"Um."},{"startTime":1446.821,"endTime":1452.941,"body":"It's an unfortunate failure mode"},{"startTime":1446.821,"endTime":1452.941,"body":"for like signals way like years and"},{"startTime":1452.941,"endTime":1457.801,"body":"years and years has been all signal"},{"startTime":1452.941,"endTime":1457.801,"body":"clients are end-to-end encrypted."},{"startTime":1457.801,"endTime":1463.261,"body":"There is no accidental sending of a"},{"startTime":1457.801,"endTime":1463.261,"body":"signal chat message or WhatsApp chat"},{"startTime":1463.261,"endTime":1467.161,"body":"message after they migrated their entire"},{"startTime":1463.261,"endTime":1467.161,"body":"client base to end-to-end encryption."},{"startTime":1467.521,"endTime":1472.081,"body":"Um, they originally were SMS, they,"},{"startTime":1467.521,"endTime":1472.081,"body":"they were in a nice space because they"},{"startTime":1472.081,"endTime":1475.861,"body":"were SMS and then they migrated the"},{"startTime":1472.081,"endTime":1475.861,"body":"whole thing to end-to-end encryption."},{"startTime":1475.861,"endTime":1479.131,"body":"Where signal in the very early"},{"startTime":1475.861,"endTime":1479.131,"body":"days was kind of this, you know,"},{"startTime":1479.551,"endTime":1483.421,"body":"possibly both, uh, case, um, but."},{"startTime":1484.126,"endTime":1485.416,"body":"That is impossible with signal."},{"startTime":1485.416,"endTime":1487.786,"body":"Now everything is end"},{"startTime":1485.416,"endTime":1487.786,"body":"to encrypted by default."},{"startTime":1487.786,"endTime":1488.596,"body":"That is impossible."},{"startTime":1488.596,"endTime":1491.086,"body":"In WhatsApp, everything is end"},{"startTime":1488.596,"endTime":1491.086,"body":"to encrypted by default, even"},{"startTime":1491.086,"endTime":1494.146,"body":"though it has a little bit less"},{"startTime":1491.086,"endTime":1494.146,"body":"metadata privacy than signal."},{"startTime":1494.596,"endTime":1495.826,"body":"That is not the case."},{"startTime":1496.126,"endTime":1500.806,"body":"In encrypted email, you might have es"},{"startTime":1496.126,"endTime":1500.806,"body":"IM you might have this PGP, you might"},{"startTime":1500.806,"endTime":1503.716,"body":"have everything nicely done correctly."},{"startTime":1503.896,"endTime":1507.376,"body":"The protocol is still a"},{"startTime":1503.896,"endTime":1507.376,"body":"default plain text protocol."},{"startTime":1507.556,"endTime":1512.866,"body":"You are layering this extra crap on"},{"startTime":1507.556,"endTime":1512.866,"body":"top of a default plain text protocol"},{"startTime":1513.286,"endTime":1516.046,"body":"and it's up to you to never fuck up."},{"startTime":1516.916,"endTime":1517.456,"body":"Like there."},{"startTime":1517.696,"endTime":1518.146,"body":"What is it?"},{"startTime":1518.146,"endTime":1520.036,"body":"The, you have to be perfect all the time."},{"startTime":1520.036,"endTime":1523.126,"body":"The adversary only has to get it"},{"startTime":1520.036,"endTime":1523.126,"body":"right once, something like that."},{"startTime":1523.396,"endTime":1526.126,"body":"Or you have to fuck up once and the"},{"startTime":1523.396,"endTime":1526.126,"body":"adversary just has to catch you."},{"startTime":1526.486,"endTime":1530.026,"body":"Um, that's, that's the case"},{"startTime":1526.486,"endTime":1530.026,"body":"for trying to make end, uh,"},{"startTime":1530.296,"endTime":1531.676,"body":"end-to-end crypto email work."},{"startTime":1532.006,"endTime":1538.366,"body":"Um, and it's, we've learned those lessons"},{"startTime":1532.006,"endTime":1538.366,"body":"of why this is bad in other places for"},{"startTime":1538.546,"endTime":1543.346,"body":"secure communication, and it just doesn't"},{"startTime":1538.546,"endTime":1543.346,"body":"seem like we're ever able to make it work."},{"startTime":1544.066,"endTime":1551.656,"body":"Email, signal, WhatsApp, all these other,"},{"startTime":1544.066,"endTime":1551.656,"body":"um, iMessage aside, they aren't on top of"},{"startTime":1551.656,"endTime":1553.786,"body":"the default plain text protocol anymore."},{"startTime":1553.846,"endTime":1555.646,"body":"They completely moved away from it."},{"startTime":1556.276,"endTime":1559.456,"body":"Um, email is still plain text by default."},{"startTime":1560.236,"endTime":1564.016,"body":"So I think this is the strongest part"},{"startTime":1560.236,"endTime":1564.016,"body":"of your, your, your arguments here."},{"startTime":1564.461,"endTime":1565.311,"body":"Yeah, I think."},{"startTime":1566.056,"endTime":1568.576,"body":"Kind of a funny thing that that keeps"},{"startTime":1566.056,"endTime":1568.576,"body":"happening is every once in a while,"},{"startTime":1568.606,"endTime":1571.606,"body":"someone who defends pg p will, will"},{"startTime":1568.606,"endTime":1571.606,"body":"bite the bullet on this and they'll say,"},{"startTime":1571.606,"endTime":1574.666,"body":"well, what we'll do is we'll control"},{"startTime":1571.606,"endTime":1574.666,"body":"the client and we'll force the client"},{"startTime":1574.696,"endTime":1576.436,"body":"not to send plain text responses."},{"startTime":1576.856,"endTime":1580.396,"body":"And that gets to the argument that I've"},{"startTime":1576.856,"endTime":1580.396,"body":"seen Thomas me before, which is that,"},{"startTime":1580.401,"endTime":1582.646,"body":"well, if you're gonna do this entire"},{"startTime":1580.401,"endTime":1582.646,"body":"thing where you build the whole ecosystem"},{"startTime":1583.036,"endTime":1587.716,"body":"around PGP such that you can't use pg"},{"startTime":1583.036,"endTime":1587.716,"body":"p wrong, why not simply do the easier"},{"startTime":1587.716,"endTime":1591.706,"body":"thing and not use PGP given that you're"},{"startTime":1587.716,"endTime":1591.706,"body":"gonna break compatibility anyways?"},{"startTime":1592.276,"endTime":1593.678,"body":"Um, yeah, I don't know."},{"startTime":1593.678,"endTime":1595.418,"body":"Like I, I know like that's"},{"startTime":1593.678,"endTime":1595.418,"body":"like the Delta chat thing."},{"startTime":1595.478,"endTime":1597.458,"body":"Like I, I haven't really looked too"},{"startTime":1595.478,"endTime":1597.458,"body":"closely at what they do, but their"},{"startTime":1597.458,"endTime":1598.718,"body":"whole thing is they claim to do."},{"startTime":1598.723,"endTime":1600.428,"body":"They, they, they're the ones"},{"startTime":1598.723,"endTime":1600.428,"body":"who have finally done it."},{"startTime":1600.458,"endTime":1602.918,"body":"They finally cracked the code"},{"startTime":1600.458,"endTime":1602.918,"body":"on encrypted secure email."},{"startTime":1602.918,"endTime":1606.638,"body":"But, um, they do that by, by totally"},{"startTime":1602.918,"endTime":1606.638,"body":"breaking the, the compatibility"},{"startTime":1607.478,"endTime":1608.648,"body":"assumptions in, in email."},{"startTime":1609.263,"endTime":1612.983,"body":"But I mean, the one thing and that"},{"startTime":1609.263,"endTime":1612.983,"body":"like you do that, the one thing that"},{"startTime":1612.983,"endTime":1617.213,"body":"you are retaining from email is the"},{"startTime":1612.983,"endTime":1617.213,"body":"possibility of being compatible with"},{"startTime":1617.213,"endTime":1619.223,"body":"somebody who won't encrypt their messages."},{"startTime":1619.553,"endTime":1620.993,"body":"That's all you've saved."},{"startTime":1621.848,"endTime":1631.148,"body":"also like the sending of messages"},{"startTime":1621.848,"endTime":1631.148,"body":"solution, like I think people are, they"},{"startTime":1631.148,"endTime":1636.218,"body":"want to use the thing that already works,"},{"startTime":1631.148,"endTime":1636.218,"body":"which is like the modality of sending"},{"startTime":1636.248,"endTime":1642.608,"body":"emails, but they want to do it securely"},{"startTime":1636.248,"endTime":1642.608,"body":"and so they, it, it, like, it's so,"},{"startTime":1643.148,"endTime":1647.588,"body":"I can see it being so easy to just be"},{"startTime":1643.148,"endTime":1647.588,"body":"like, well, we just don't send emails."},{"startTime":1647.588,"endTime":1650.378,"body":"It looks like email, smells"},{"startTime":1647.588,"endTime":1650.378,"body":"like email, but it's not email."},{"startTime":1650.978,"endTime":1656.018,"body":"But then people were like, well, why"},{"startTime":1650.978,"endTime":1656.018,"body":"can't I email this person who uses"},{"startTime":1656.018,"endTime":1658.088,"body":"this client who, that it's suppo."},{"startTime":1658.208,"endTime":1659.618,"body":"Like it's not secure."},{"startTime":1659.618,"endTime":1662.618,"body":"It's not set up to take"},{"startTime":1659.618,"endTime":1662.618,"body":"my ex unencrypted email."},{"startTime":1662.618,"endTime":1664.508,"body":"And then you kind of,"},{"startTime":1662.618,"endTime":1664.508,"body":"you're back at square one."},{"startTime":1665.198,"endTime":1665.488,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1665.753,"endTime":1669.203,"body":"Man, I would love it if I couldn't"},{"startTime":1665.753,"endTime":1669.203,"body":"accept email from people so."},{"startTime":1672.053,"endTime":1672.293,"body":"uh,"},{"startTime":1672.368,"endTime":1673.553,"body":"There is that subtext."},{"startTime":1674.003,"endTime":1675.368,"body":"uh, I think there's a lot of like, um."},{"startTime":1676.403,"endTime":1678.473,"body":"I think about this a lot with like,"},{"startTime":1676.403,"endTime":1678.473,"body":"with like, uh, protocols in general."},{"startTime":1678.473,"endTime":1679.763,"body":"There's a lot of like"},{"startTime":1678.473,"endTime":1679.763,"body":"nerd pattern matching."},{"startTime":1679.893,"endTime":1680.033,"body":"People"},{"startTime":1680.033,"endTime":1680.783,"body":"love the username"},{"startTime":1680.843,"endTime":1683.273,"body":"at domain scheme for things,"},{"startTime":1683.573,"endTime":1685.223,"body":"and I think email in that"},{"startTime":1683.573,"endTime":1685.223,"body":"sense is very comforting."},{"startTime":1685.223,"endTime":1687.563,"body":"And so the idea that you can do"},{"startTime":1685.223,"endTime":1687.563,"body":"encryption on top of that is,"},{"startTime":1687.563,"endTime":1688.763,"body":"is, is especially comforting."},{"startTime":1689.198,"endTime":1692.918,"body":"S speaking of, speaking of the thing"},{"startTime":1689.198,"endTime":1692.918,"body":"that users love about this, which"},{"startTime":1692.918,"endTime":1694.778,"body":"is the username at thing, right?"},{"startTime":1694.778,"endTime":1698.288,"body":"My second argument, which I think might"},{"startTime":1694.778,"endTime":1698.288,"body":"be stronger than the first argument,"},{"startTime":1698.288,"endTime":1701.888,"body":"so I'm waiting for, uh, you guys to"},{"startTime":1698.288,"endTime":1701.888,"body":"tell me I'm wrong about this, right?"},{"startTime":1702.158,"endTime":1707.498,"body":"The second argument is, um, for a"},{"startTime":1702.158,"endTime":1707.498,"body":"serious adversary, you know, if it's a,"},{"startTime":1707.498,"endTime":1711.248,"body":"a, you know, a state level adversary or"},{"startTime":1707.498,"endTime":1711.248,"body":"whatever, the metadata surrounding the"},{"startTime":1711.248,"endTime":1716.468,"body":"message is often, maybe, even usually"},{"startTime":1711.248,"endTime":1716.468,"body":"just as valuable as the message itself."},{"startTime":1716.828,"endTime":1717.158,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1717.368,"endTime":1720.548,"body":"What they wanna do is roll up the"},{"startTime":1717.368,"endTime":1720.548,"body":"network of who's talking to who."},{"startTime":1720.788,"endTime":1724.868,"body":"They're probably starting from a point"},{"startTime":1720.788,"endTime":1724.868,"body":"where they've got like some particular"},{"startTime":1724.868,"endTime":1728.588,"body":"person or contact that they know"},{"startTime":1724.868,"endTime":1728.588,"body":"they're targeting, and they're just"},{"startTime":1728.588,"endTime":1731.438,"body":"trying to work out what the network"},{"startTime":1728.588,"endTime":1731.438,"body":"is like, who they should, like,"},{"startTime":1731.438,"endTime":1733.178,"body":"expand surveillance to and all that."},{"startTime":1733.208,"endTime":1733.568,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1733.808,"endTime":1736.298,"body":"So metadata super, super important."},{"startTime":1736.598,"endTime":1740.408,"body":"And email doesn't just like"},{"startTime":1736.598,"endTime":1740.408,"body":"leak the metadata email, like"},{"startTime":1740.588,"endTime":1742.418,"body":"proudly publishes the metadata."},{"startTime":1742.568,"endTime":1745.568,"body":"It's a store and forward system"},{"startTime":1742.568,"endTime":1745.568,"body":"where every time you send a message,"},{"startTime":1745.868,"endTime":1749.048,"body":"the, you know, no matter what"},{"startTime":1745.868,"endTime":1749.048,"body":"you're doing to encrypt the content."},{"startTime":1749.348,"endTime":1751.868,"body":"The funniest thing about this whole"},{"startTime":1749.348,"endTime":1751.868,"body":"thing, by the way, is that PGP email"},{"startTime":1751.868,"endTime":1755.798,"body":"doesn't encrypt the subject editor, which"},{"startTime":1751.868,"endTime":1755.798,"body":"is like the subject, the subject head"},{"startTime":1756.008,"endTime":1758.918,"body":"isn't even metadata, it's just message."},{"startTime":1759.083,"endTime":1759.278,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1759.278,"endTime":1762.278,"body":"It's just part of the, it's"},{"startTime":1759.278,"endTime":1762.278,"body":"the summary of the message."},{"startTime":1762.578,"endTime":1762.788,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1762.998,"endTime":1766.628,"body":"But, but that aside, like the, the,"},{"startTime":1762.998,"endTime":1766.628,"body":"the two in the, from of that message"},{"startTime":1766.628,"endTime":1770.148,"body":"and that graph that you build of"},{"startTime":1766.628,"endTime":1770.148,"body":"who's talking to who, like this is."},{"startTime":1770.663,"endTime":1776.093,"body":"The entire reason why Signal asks"},{"startTime":1770.663,"endTime":1776.093,"body":"for your phone number is so they can"},{"startTime":1776.093,"endTime":1780.713,"body":"draft off of your local contact list"},{"startTime":1776.093,"endTime":1780.713,"body":"and not maintain a server side contact"},{"startTime":1780.718,"endTime":1781.073,"body":"list."},{"startTime":1781.253,"endTime":1783.803,"body":"Because if they had that server"},{"startTime":1781.253,"endTime":1783.803,"body":"side contact list, somebody would"},{"startTime":1783.803,"endTime":1787.673,"body":"eventually, you know, target them"},{"startTime":1783.803,"endTime":1787.673,"body":"for it legally or otherwise and get"},{"startTime":1787.673,"endTime":1791.423,"body":"it and then have the entire graph of"},{"startTime":1787.673,"endTime":1791.423,"body":"everybody who's talking on the service."},{"startTime":1791.513,"endTime":1796.013,"body":"By the way, if you use like a secure"},{"startTime":1791.513,"endTime":1796.013,"body":"messaging system where like you go"},{"startTime":1796.013,"endTime":1799.493,"body":"from device to device and you just"},{"startTime":1796.013,"endTime":1799.493,"body":"automatic automatically have the"},{"startTime":1799.493,"endTime":1802.523,"body":"complete contact list everywhere, you"},{"startTime":1799.493,"endTime":1802.523,"body":"should ask yourself how that's working,"},{"startTime":1802.853,"endTime":1803.273,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":1803.363,"endTime":1805.823,"body":"Because if the way that works is"},{"startTime":1803.363,"endTime":1805.823,"body":"that they have a server side contact"},{"startTime":1805.823,"endTime":1809.093,"body":"list, they're keeping the whole"},{"startTime":1805.823,"endTime":1809.093,"body":"graph of who's talking to everybody,"},{"startTime":1809.333,"endTime":1811.403,"body":"like server side, just there, right?"},{"startTime":1811.613,"endTime":1812.153,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":1812.813,"endTime":1813.023,"body":"yeah,"},{"startTime":1813.113,"endTime":1820.073,"body":"yeah, they, the iMessage and, uh,"},{"startTime":1813.113,"endTime":1820.073,"body":"apple like migration tooling, and"},{"startTime":1820.073,"endTime":1824.033,"body":"now the signal migration tooling"},{"startTime":1820.073,"endTime":1824.033,"body":"from device to device has like."},{"startTime":1824.513,"endTime":1830.093,"body":"Uh, become a very advanced, to avoid"},{"startTime":1824.513,"endTime":1830.093,"body":"this scenario in particular, they"},{"startTime":1830.093,"endTime":1832.223,"body":"literally take everything on your device."},{"startTime":1832.223,"endTime":1836.453,"body":"You do like a, you do a little bit of a"},{"startTime":1832.223,"endTime":1836.453,"body":"diffy Hillman handshake to make sure that"},{"startTime":1836.453,"endTime":1841.013,"body":"you like, do a daisy chain of, of auth and"},{"startTime":1836.453,"endTime":1841.013,"body":"you're, uh, you know, authorized to move"},{"startTime":1841.013,"endTime":1844.043,"body":"things from a old device to a new device."},{"startTime":1844.313,"endTime":1846.623,"body":"Um, and they go from device to device."},{"startTime":1846.623,"endTime":1850.463,"body":"There's nothing going up in the cloud"},{"startTime":1846.623,"endTime":1850.463,"body":"really, other than like, I am registering"},{"startTime":1850.463,"endTime":1853.463,"body":"a, a new device like at timestamp."},{"startTime":1853.463,"endTime":1854.363,"body":"Like that's kind of it."},{"startTime":1854.843,"endTime":1857.363,"body":"Um, that's going from"},{"startTime":1854.843,"endTime":1857.363,"body":"device to device, if."},{"startTime":1857.708,"endTime":1862.208,"body":"You're not doing that kind of like,"},{"startTime":1857.708,"endTime":1862.208,"body":"you know, kind of little dance"},{"startTime":1862.208,"endTime":1866.288,"body":"protocol between devices and things"},{"startTime":1862.208,"endTime":1866.288,"body":"just show up on your new device."},{"startTime":1866.288,"endTime":1868.868,"body":"It's because they're, it's up in"},{"startTime":1866.288,"endTime":1868.868,"body":"the cloud and maybe there's some"},{"startTime":1868.868,"endTime":1871.298,"body":"sort of password and maybe some"},{"startTime":1868.868,"endTime":1871.298,"body":"of it's encrypted or whatever."},{"startTime":1871.298,"endTime":1874.388,"body":"But, you know, going from device"},{"startTime":1871.298,"endTime":1874.388,"body":"to device and not going up through"},{"startTime":1874.388,"endTime":1879.248,"body":"somebody else's computer, um, is, you"},{"startTime":1874.388,"endTime":1879.248,"body":"know, less risky and less, uh, exposed."},{"startTime":1879.728,"endTime":1884.888,"body":"Um, the other part about the, the contact"},{"startTime":1879.728,"endTime":1884.888,"body":"list being like public and available and"},{"startTime":1884.888,"endTime":1890.078,"body":"subpoena able, or hackable or whatever,"},{"startTime":1884.888,"endTime":1890.078,"body":"um, signal's done a lot of work to like,"},{"startTime":1890.108,"endTime":1895.508,"body":"keep as much metadata about who's talking"},{"startTime":1890.108,"endTime":1895.508,"body":"to who, who's in what groups, what the"},{"startTime":1895.508,"endTime":1899.918,"body":"groups are about the, the profile pictures"},{"startTime":1895.508,"endTime":1899.918,"body":"and, you know, aliases and nicknames"},{"startTime":1899.918,"endTime":1905.108,"body":"of people in groups and between people"},{"startTime":1899.918,"endTime":1905.108,"body":"completely encrypted and private and not"},{"startTime":1905.108,"endTime":1907.388,"body":"accessible, visible to signal the service."},{"startTime":1907.658,"endTime":1911.438,"body":"But that has involved a lot of advanced"},{"startTime":1907.658,"endTime":1911.438,"body":"cryptography that no one else does."},{"startTime":1912.008,"endTime":1913.178,"body":"WhatsApp doesn't do it."},{"startTime":1913.448,"endTime":1916.118,"body":"A lot of these advanced, uh,"},{"startTime":1913.448,"endTime":1916.118,"body":"you know, end-to-end encrypted"},{"startTime":1916.118,"endTime":1917.048,"body":"messengers that aren't."},{"startTime":1917.378,"endTime":1920.468,"body":"Super popular yet they're"},{"startTime":1917.378,"endTime":1920.468,"body":"not quite there yet either."},{"startTime":1920.468,"endTime":1923.498,"body":"Signal has done a lot of work and"},{"startTime":1920.468,"endTime":1923.498,"body":"that was definitely not available"},{"startTime":1923.498,"endTime":1925.778,"body":"when they were kind of up and coming."},{"startTime":1925.928,"endTime":1930.578,"body":"And that's like why the, the bootstrapping"},{"startTime":1925.928,"endTime":1930.578,"body":"of your local contact list of, you"},{"startTime":1930.578,"endTime":1935.168,"body":"know, phone numbers in your phone,"},{"startTime":1930.578,"endTime":1935.168,"body":"um, which is just on your phone and"},{"startTime":1935.168,"endTime":1939.878,"body":"does not get uploaded and, and none"},{"startTime":1935.168,"endTime":1939.878,"body":"of that, um, uh, that occurred."},{"startTime":1939.878,"endTime":1943.238,"body":"And it's sort of like the historical"},{"startTime":1939.878,"endTime":1943.238,"body":"legacy, um, that's, that's"},{"startTime":1943.238,"endTime":1944.528,"body":"kind of inherited into Signal."},{"startTime":1944.588,"endTime":1952.148,"body":"Doing that, doing that syncing privately"},{"startTime":1944.588,"endTime":1952.148,"body":"is a ton of work and Signal may be the"},{"startTime":1952.148,"endTime":1956.918,"body":"only encrypted messaging service that"},{"startTime":1952.148,"endTime":1956.918,"body":"could do it, and they're still not"},{"startTime":1956.918,"endTime":1958.658,"body":"doing it because it's very difficult."},{"startTime":1959.753,"endTime":1963.173,"body":"Like I, it is gonna sound, I think"},{"startTime":1959.753,"endTime":1963.173,"body":"a lot here, like we're just boosting"},{"startTime":1963.173,"endTime":1967.583,"body":"a signal and like the, I'm like the,"},{"startTime":1963.173,"endTime":1967.583,"body":"the really just use anything but email"},{"startTime":1967.583,"endTime":1969.083,"body":"and I don't have this much of a gripe."},{"startTime":1969.083,"endTime":1969.323,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1969.323,"endTime":1970.703,"body":"It's just email is the problem."},{"startTime":1970.703,"endTime":1971.063,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1971.228,"endTime":1971.483,"body":"Use"},{"startTime":1971.753,"endTime":1972.683,"body":"use matrix."},{"startTime":1972.683,"endTime":1973.493,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":1973.493,"endTime":1974.198,"body":"There's, I, I have"},{"startTime":1974.243,"endTime":1977.723,"body":"like, I have things to say about"},{"startTime":1974.243,"endTime":1977.723,"body":"Matrix, but I think Matrix is generally"},{"startTime":1977.723,"endTime":1980.488,"body":"a well-intentioned and heading"},{"startTime":1977.723,"endTime":1980.488,"body":"in the right direction project."},{"startTime":1980.663,"endTime":1980.873,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1980.873,"endTime":1982.613,"body":"Like there's lots of"},{"startTime":1980.873,"endTime":1982.613,"body":"different things you can use."},{"startTime":1982.883,"endTime":1983.783,"body":"Um, just"},{"startTime":1984.383,"endTime":1985.163,"body":"email."},{"startTime":1986.093,"endTime":1988.163,"body":"You should, I guess, matter most."},{"startTime":1989.421,"endTime":1992.691,"body":"think also specifically the, the email"},{"startTime":1989.421,"endTime":1992.691,"body":"argument or the rather the metadata"},{"startTime":1992.691,"endTime":1995.451,"body":"argument with email is that email"},{"startTime":1992.691,"endTime":1995.451,"body":"is uniquely profligate with how much"},{"startTime":1995.451,"endTime":1998.151,"body":"metadata it encourages everybody to use."},{"startTime":1998.211,"endTime":2001.001,"body":"Like, Like, all the email"},{"startTime":1998.211,"endTime":2001.001,"body":"clients have emoji reactions"},{"startTime":2001.001,"endTime":2002.231,"body":"now, and those are in metadata."},{"startTime":2002.686,"endTime":2004.996,"body":"And those are also part of"},{"startTime":2002.686,"endTime":2004.996,"body":"the message semantically."},{"startTime":2005.296,"endTime":2007.366,"body":"Uh, but those are now in metadata."},{"startTime":2007.426,"endTime":2010.396,"body":"And so now people I think probably don't"},{"startTime":2007.426,"endTime":2010.396,"body":"realize the five people who both use"},{"startTime":2010.396,"endTime":2015.961,"body":"PGP and Emoji reacts in Gmail, uh, are"},{"startTime":2010.396,"endTime":2015.961,"body":"sending, you know, clear text emojis."},{"startTime":2016.726,"endTime":2017.866,"body":"I hate that and"},{"startTime":2017.926,"endTime":2021.301,"body":"Do we, do we do We know This is,"},{"startTime":2017.926,"endTime":2021.301,"body":"this is, you're breaking news here."},{"startTime":2021.301,"endTime":2023.611,"body":"This is, so how does this work?"},{"startTime":2023.611,"endTime":2025.501,"body":"Is it like my matters"},{"startTime":2023.611,"endTime":2025.501,"body":"that, that could attach to"},{"startTime":2025.606,"endTime":2025.846,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2025.846,"endTime":2028.816,"body":"They, they add, I, I can't remember what"},{"startTime":2025.846,"endTime":2028.816,"body":"the Gmail one is, but the, the m phone"},{"startTime":2028.816,"endTime":2031.126,"body":"is like XMS react or something like that."},{"startTime":2031.636,"endTime":2035.206,"body":"And then it's, uh, I, I, I would've"},{"startTime":2031.636,"endTime":2035.206,"body":"to, I would've to look up the"},{"startTime":2035.206,"endTime":2036.316,"body":"exact details, but it's like,"},{"startTime":2036.661,"endTime":2038.791,"body":"You can just off the top of your head,"},{"startTime":2036.661,"endTime":2038.791,"body":"this, you don't actually have to have it."},{"startTime":2038.791,"endTime":2039.001,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2039.001,"endTime":2040.951,"body":"But is like a, is it"},{"startTime":2039.001,"endTime":2040.951,"body":"like a single line base?"},{"startTime":2040.951,"endTime":2043.201,"body":"64 header, like an actual header?"},{"startTime":2043.441,"endTime":2043.841,"body":"It's not like the."},{"startTime":2044.446,"endTime":2045.946,"body":"I'm, I'm, I'm pretty sure"},{"startTime":2044.446,"endTime":2045.946,"body":"it's an actual header."},{"startTime":2047.476,"endTime":2049.576,"body":"I can, like, I can imagine"},{"startTime":2047.476,"endTime":2049.576,"body":"like a mime section, right?"},{"startTime":2049.576,"endTime":2052.336,"body":"Like it's the, you do the whole,"},{"startTime":2049.576,"endTime":2052.336,"body":"like the, the messages, like this"},{"startTime":2052.756,"endTime":2054.256,"body":"set of mime packets or whatever."},{"startTime":2054.886,"endTime":2056.716,"body":"I believe you, when you say it's"},{"startTime":2054.886,"endTime":2056.716,"body":"a header, I just think that's"},{"startTime":2057.256,"endTime":2059.386,"body":"It's, it, it it may also"},{"startTime":2057.256,"endTime":2059.386,"body":"vary by email provider."},{"startTime":2059.386,"endTime":2061.271,"body":"Is, is the, is the thing that"},{"startTime":2059.386,"endTime":2061.271,"body":"is concerning me is that I"},{"startTime":2061.271,"endTime":2063.736,"body":"think what I'm saying is correct"},{"startTime":2061.271,"endTime":2063.736,"body":"possibly for, for Outlook."},{"startTime":2063.736,"endTime":2064.876,"body":"It might not be correct for Gmail."},{"startTime":2064.936,"endTime":2065.866,"body":"Gmail may do the mime thing,"},{"startTime":2066.616,"endTime":2069.856,"body":"but let me, I, I am trying"},{"startTime":2066.616,"endTime":2069.856,"body":"to actually find this"},{"startTime":2070.156,"endTime":2070.876,"body":"documented somewhere."},{"startTime":2071.296,"endTime":2074.176,"body":"I, hate this so much"},{"startTime":2071.296,"endTime":2074.176,"body":"because emojis are content."},{"startTime":2074.356,"endTime":2075.291,"body":"They are, they are."},{"startTime":2076.246,"endTime":2078.256,"body":"They're the body of communication."},{"startTime":2078.256,"endTime":2082.756,"body":"I mean, you can have an entirely"},{"startTime":2078.256,"endTime":2082.756,"body":"like important, very sensitive"},{"startTime":2082.756,"endTime":2087.016,"body":"conversation just in emoji reacts,"},{"startTime":2082.756,"endTime":2087.016,"body":"because I've done it, I've done it."},{"startTime":2087.839,"endTime":2093.329,"body":"on the argument that metadata is important"},{"startTime":2087.839,"endTime":2093.329,"body":"as content, um, it, it really depends."},{"startTime":2093.329,"endTime":2096.059,"body":"Like some, it's important to protect it."},{"startTime":2096.059,"endTime":2097.409,"body":"It's also difficult to protect it."},{"startTime":2097.439,"endTime":2103.619,"body":"The, the e emoji reacts not being"},{"startTime":2097.439,"endTime":2103.619,"body":"counted as content is just wrong, but"},{"startTime":2103.619,"endTime":2107.909,"body":"like the metadata about who's talking to"},{"startTime":2103.619,"endTime":2107.909,"body":"who at what time and like how long the"},{"startTime":2107.909,"endTime":2109.739,"body":"conversation is and things like that."},{"startTime":2109.739,"endTime":2113.579,"body":"The sub, the subject line that is content"},{"startTime":2109.739,"endTime":2113.579,"body":"that should just be encrypted and the"},{"startTime":2113.579,"endTime":2115.289,"body":"fact that it's not as, as ridiculous."},{"startTime":2115.469,"endTime":2120.749,"body":"Um, but the other stuff, um, it's hard to"},{"startTime":2115.469,"endTime":2120.749,"body":"protect it because a lot of it is like."},{"startTime":2121.304,"endTime":2124.304,"body":"Control flow, like how"},{"startTime":2121.304,"endTime":2124.304,"body":"do we route information?"},{"startTime":2124.574,"endTime":2128.954,"body":"Um, even, even WhatsApp has,"},{"startTime":2124.574,"endTime":2128.954,"body":"uh, doesn't encrypt this stuff."},{"startTime":2129.134,"endTime":2133.394,"body":"They, they know who is talking to who"},{"startTime":2129.134,"endTime":2133.394,"body":"at what times and things like that."},{"startTime":2133.424,"endTime":2140.204,"body":"Uh, signal has done a lot of work to"},{"startTime":2133.424,"endTime":2140.204,"body":"not be able to detect a lot of this,"},{"startTime":2140.264,"endTime":2142.754,"body":"uh, but it got better at it over time."},{"startTime":2142.844,"endTime":2147.104,"body":"And the stuff that's subpoena able"},{"startTime":2142.844,"endTime":2147.104,"body":"from Signal is literally like the time"},{"startTime":2147.104,"endTime":2150.764,"body":"that someone registered an account,"},{"startTime":2147.104,"endTime":2150.764,"body":"like the very first time and the last"},{"startTime":2150.764,"endTime":2152.654,"body":"time they contacted the signal service."},{"startTime":2152.654,"endTime":2156.794,"body":"Like that's, they've very proudly"},{"startTime":2152.654,"endTime":2156.794,"body":"put up their, you know, responses"},{"startTime":2156.794,"endTime":2159.734,"body":"to, you know, subpoenas and"},{"startTime":2156.794,"endTime":2159.734,"body":"court orders about like, give me"},{"startTime":2159.734,"endTime":2162.764,"body":"information about X, Y, z, uh, users."},{"startTime":2163.474,"endTime":2163.824,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2164.474,"endTime":2168.584,"body":"but even if you get it,"},{"startTime":2164.474,"endTime":2168.584,"body":"it, I think there's like."},{"startTime":2169.559,"endTime":2173.999,"body":"This, this has been kind of the evolution"},{"startTime":2169.559,"endTime":2173.999,"body":"of what you can get from devices."},{"startTime":2174.359,"endTime":2177.689,"body":"If you just be like, just try"},{"startTime":2174.359,"endTime":2177.689,"body":"to give me access to devices."},{"startTime":2177.689,"endTime":2182.009,"body":"If you can get access to devices,"},{"startTime":2177.689,"endTime":2182.009,"body":"there's a lot of content, including"},{"startTime":2182.669,"endTime":2187.649,"body":"previously secure, securely communicated,"},{"startTime":2182.669,"endTime":2187.649,"body":"end-to-end, encrypted content on devices"},{"startTime":2187.649,"endTime":2192.479,"body":"or on clouds, especially like iClouds"},{"startTime":2187.649,"endTime":2192.479,"body":"that are not fully, uh, encrypted,"},{"startTime":2192.479,"endTime":2197.129,"body":"backup or other cloud backups, um, that"},{"startTime":2192.479,"endTime":2197.129,"body":"you might be able to get access to."},{"startTime":2197.129,"endTime":2198.479,"body":"And that's really rich."},{"startTime":2198.479,"endTime":2203.369,"body":"And if you can get, get access to"},{"startTime":2198.479,"endTime":2203.369,"body":"that, uh, that's really good stuff."},{"startTime":2203.789,"endTime":2207.929,"body":"If you can't get access to"},{"startTime":2203.789,"endTime":2207.929,"body":"that, the metadata is useful."},{"startTime":2207.929,"endTime":2211.409,"body":"And especially if you're trying"},{"startTime":2207.929,"endTime":2211.409,"body":"to spider out from a target."},{"startTime":2211.409,"endTime":2214.229,"body":"If you're trying to find more"},{"startTime":2211.409,"endTime":2214.229,"body":"people in like a communications"},{"startTime":2214.229,"endTime":2218.399,"body":"network and you're trying to find"},{"startTime":2214.229,"endTime":2218.399,"body":"links, I do think it's important."},{"startTime":2218.759,"endTime":2220.979,"body":"Uh, I don't."},{"startTime":2221.324,"endTime":2227.324,"body":"Quite agree that it is as important as"},{"startTime":2221.324,"endTime":2227.324,"body":"content in the year of our Lord 2025,"},{"startTime":2227.744,"endTime":2233.054,"body":"because there's just so much content"},{"startTime":2227.744,"endTime":2233.054,"body":"available out there from random places,"},{"startTime":2233.054,"endTime":2237.104,"body":"whether it's the cloud or, you know,"},{"startTime":2233.054,"endTime":2237.104,"body":"just give me access to your device, uh,"},{"startTime":2237.104,"endTime":2242.594,"body":"via some sort of like corridor or if"},{"startTime":2237.104,"endTime":2242.594,"body":"you want to be, uh, really, you know,"},{"startTime":2243.554,"endTime":2247.244,"body":"targeted as a specific person, you"},{"startTime":2243.554,"endTime":2247.244,"body":"can try and like target their devices"},{"startTime":2247.244,"endTime":2250.874,"body":"specifically and send them, you know,"},{"startTime":2247.244,"endTime":2250.874,"body":"an attack, um, depending on the security"},{"startTime":2250.874,"endTime":2255.494,"body":"of their device and get everything"},{"startTime":2250.874,"endTime":2255.494,"body":"quote, like effectively everything."},{"startTime":2255.494,"endTime":2255.764,"body":"So,"},{"startTime":2256.504,"endTime":2256.854,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2256.934,"endTime":2259.559,"body":"I, I think that those are all"},{"startTime":2256.934,"endTime":2259.559,"body":"totally valid points, right?"},{"startTime":2259.559,"endTime":2262.414,"body":"Like, um, I think the thing"},{"startTime":2259.559,"endTime":2262.414,"body":"I'm trying to call out about."},{"startTime":2263.224,"endTime":2265.369,"body":"The un salvageability of email"},{"startTime":2265.714,"endTime":2268.474,"body":"is just, if you think about"},{"startTime":2265.714,"endTime":2268.474,"body":"how email works, right?"},{"startTime":2268.474,"endTime":2274.204,"body":"Like, um, when you, there's so many"},{"startTime":2268.474,"endTime":2274.204,"body":"places where you can do a dragnet and just"},{"startTime":2274.204,"endTime":2277.729,"body":"collect all of the metadata going through"},{"startTime":2274.204,"endTime":2277.729,"body":"like a message flow for a bunch of people,"},{"startTime":2277.774,"endTime":2278.344,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":2278.404,"endTime":2280.894,"body":"Like every every MX hop,"},{"startTime":2278.404,"endTime":2280.894,"body":"whatever, like they're"},{"startTime":2280.894,"endTime":2284.164,"body":"just, the processing of these"},{"startTime":2280.894,"endTime":2284.164,"body":"emails leaves a log trail"},{"startTime":2284.404,"endTime":2287.404,"body":"of who is talking to who, and"},{"startTime":2284.404,"endTime":2287.404,"body":"not just on the central, the"},{"startTime":2287.404,"endTime":2290.854,"body":"one central place that you could"},{"startTime":2287.404,"endTime":2290.854,"body":"potentially protect or whatever, but"},{"startTime":2290.854,"endTime":2294.364,"body":"just like everywhere that the message"},{"startTime":2290.854,"endTime":2294.364,"body":"goes, just like leaving this trail."},{"startTime":2294.664,"endTime":2298.294,"body":"Um, it's also like, to me the, the,"},{"startTime":2294.664,"endTime":2298.294,"body":"like, another important thing here is"},{"startTime":2298.294,"endTime":2303.029,"body":"just that, um, governments are already"},{"startTime":2298.294,"endTime":2303.029,"body":"really good at accessing this metadata."},{"startTime":2303.334,"endTime":2305.659,"body":"They understand SMTP metadata,"},{"startTime":2306.124,"endTime":2306.514,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":2306.679,"endTime":2309.034,"body":"Like there's, for a long time there"},{"startTime":2306.679,"endTime":2309.034,"body":"was a, there was a thing that got"},{"startTime":2309.034,"endTime":2311.764,"body":"passed around about like for each"},{"startTime":2309.034,"endTime":2311.764,"body":"of the different messaging services,"},{"startTime":2311.764,"endTime":2313.384,"body":"which what could the FBI access."},{"startTime":2313.714,"endTime":2315.154,"body":"Like, which things"},{"startTime":2313.714,"endTime":2315.154,"body":"could they actually use?"},{"startTime":2315.199,"endTime":2315.454,"body":"And it's like"},{"startTime":2315.454,"endTime":2319.414,"body":"with Signal it was like, you know, that"},{"startTime":2315.454,"endTime":2319.414,"body":"you use Signal and then nothing else."},{"startTime":2319.414,"endTime":2319.834,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2320.259,"endTime":2324.634,"body":"Um, but like the amount of stuff they can"},{"startTime":2320.259,"endTime":2324.634,"body":"mine out of SMT p metadata, I think is"},{"startTime":2324.634,"endTime":2327.994,"body":"a lot more than they can, like they're"},{"startTime":2324.634,"endTime":2327.994,"body":"ready to, to get from anything else."},{"startTime":2328.129,"endTime":2328.279,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":2329.059,"endTime":2334.144,"body":"And, and like every client, just like"},{"startTime":2329.059,"endTime":2334.144,"body":"re-broadcast all the metadata from their"},{"startTime":2334.219,"endTime":2335.599,"body":"perspective at every step."},{"startTime":2335.599,"endTime":2337.429,"body":"And that's like how the"},{"startTime":2335.599,"endTime":2337.429,"body":"protocol works, right?"},{"startTime":2337.429,"endTime":2339.799,"body":"You include all the parent"},{"startTime":2337.429,"endTime":2339.799,"body":"responses, you say exactly who"},{"startTime":2339.799,"endTime":2342.949,"body":"you're responding to and why, and"},{"startTime":2339.799,"endTime":2342.949,"body":"like the chain of how you got there."},{"startTime":2343.339,"endTime":2347.089,"body":"And then the provider signs every"},{"startTime":2343.339,"endTime":2347.089,"body":"message to make it clear that the"},{"startTime":2347.089,"endTime":2352.309,"body":"metadata is like real, because"},{"startTime":2347.089,"endTime":2352.309,"body":"everything via, uh, what's that dm?"},{"startTime":2352.639,"endTime":2353.959,"body":"Um, uh,"},{"startTime":2354.019,"endTime":2358.819,"body":"and yeah, because everything that we"},{"startTime":2354.019,"endTime":2358.819,"body":"had to build for spam is all about like"},{"startTime":2358.819,"endTime":2360.949,"body":"authenticating the med, allowing servers"},{"startTime":2360.949,"endTime":2361.609,"body":"to authenticate"},{"startTime":2361.624,"endTime":2362.689,"body":"the metadata to each other."},{"startTime":2363.159,"endTime":2366.144,"body":"Can we do like a one minute thing"},{"startTime":2363.159,"endTime":2366.144,"body":"about how you should never take any"},{"startTime":2366.144,"endTime":2369.654,"body":"kind of security advice from anybody"},{"startTime":2366.144,"endTime":2369.654,"body":"who says that De Kim messages should"},{"startTime":2369.654,"endTime":2373.524,"body":"be authentic and like that it's a"},{"startTime":2369.654,"endTime":2373.524,"body":"bad idea to burn de Kim signatures."},{"startTime":2374.964,"endTime":2376.554,"body":"This is very definitely a thing right?"},{"startTime":2376.554,"endTime":2379.614,"body":"There are definitely, like, this is"},{"startTime":2376.554,"endTime":2379.614,"body":"how like the, the Hunter Biden messages"},{"startTime":2379.614,"endTime":2382.404,"body":"got authenticated, like they were"},{"startTime":2379.614,"endTime":2382.404,"body":"published with valid deam signatures."},{"startTime":2382.614,"endTime":2386.514,"body":"And it's like you respond to that and say"},{"startTime":2382.614,"endTime":2386.514,"body":"like, well, we should burn the Deam keys"},{"startTime":2386.544,"endTime":2387.834,"body":"so that you can't really authenticate"},{"startTime":2387.939,"endTime":2389.229,"body":"we fought the deep state."},{"startTime":2389.979,"endTime":2393.039,"body":"would never be able to fight the"},{"startTime":2389.979,"endTime":2393.039,"body":"deep state without Deam keys."},{"startTime":2393.804,"endTime":2396.624,"body":"and it's like PE people will say"},{"startTime":2393.804,"endTime":2396.624,"body":"things like, well no, we need"},{"startTime":2396.624,"endTime":2399.084,"body":"to keep these d Kim keys secrets"},{"startTime":2396.624,"endTime":2399.084,"body":"so we can authenticate messages."},{"startTime":2399.294,"endTime":2402.024,"body":"'cause that's how we'll do"},{"startTime":2399.294,"endTime":2402.024,"body":"journalism by like authenticating"},{"startTime":2402.024,"endTime":2403.134,"body":"people's leaked messages."},{"startTime":2403.134,"endTime":2405.144,"body":"And it's like, you are the adversary."},{"startTime":2405.234,"endTime":2408.024,"body":"Like you're, you are being"},{"startTime":2405.234,"endTime":2408.024,"body":"the adversary right now."},{"startTime":2408.954,"endTime":2413.394,"body":"I, I mean, leaking them on the scale of"},{"startTime":2408.954,"endTime":2413.394,"body":"like, you know, uh, rotating them every"},{"startTime":2413.394,"endTime":2414.894,"body":"one month to six months or whatever."},{"startTime":2414.894,"endTime":2416.724,"body":"And then like publishing the old ones,"},{"startTime":2417.054,"endTime":2417.444,"body":"I think."},{"startTime":2417.444,"endTime":2417.864,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":2418.434,"endTime":2420.504,"body":"I don't think we should stop"},{"startTime":2418.434,"endTime":2420.504,"body":"authenticating messages."},{"startTime":2420.504,"endTime":2421.584,"body":"A time of send, right?"},{"startTime":2421.584,"endTime":2425.814,"body":"Like, I, for one, enjoy that I'm, my"},{"startTime":2421.584,"endTime":2425.814,"body":"inbox is only like 50% spam and not"},{"startTime":2425.844,"endTime":2427.104,"body":"95% spam."},{"startTime":2427.554,"endTime":2427.854,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":2428.034,"endTime":2432.834,"body":"And like 50% spam is like stuff that I"},{"startTime":2428.034,"endTime":2432.834,"body":"signed up for once upon a time and not"},{"startTime":2432.834,"endTime":2436.254,"body":"like boner pills are us or whatever."},{"startTime":2437.364,"endTime":2437.874,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":2438.204,"endTime":2439.344,"body":"of new sponsor,"},{"startTime":2443.304,"endTime":2446.184,"body":"you do wanna sponsor us and you,"},{"startTime":2443.304,"endTime":2446.184,"body":"you are not boner pills are us."},{"startTime":2446.244,"endTime":2449.454,"body":"Uh, we're trying to hold an event"},{"startTime":2446.244,"endTime":2449.454,"body":"in Las Vegas during blackout Defcon."},{"startTime":2449.904,"endTime":2453.054,"body":"Um, contact"},{"startTime":2449.904,"endTime":2453.054,"body":"us@securitycryptographywhatever.com."},{"startTime":2453.234,"endTime":2454.794,"body":"Uh, are we.com."},{"startTime":2454.794,"endTime":2455.304,"body":"Dot org?"},{"startTime":2455.304,"endTime":2455.364,"body":"I"},{"startTime":2455.454,"endTime":2455.934,"body":"me."},{"startTime":2455.994,"endTime":2457.524,"body":"Just, just contact me, figure it out."},{"startTime":2458.049,"endTime":2460.074,"body":"Da David's the one that handles this."},{"startTime":2460.134,"endTime":2463.464,"body":"Um, the, the, just talking"},{"startTime":2463.479,"endTime":2464.214,"body":"me a PGP"},{"startTime":2464.349,"endTime":2465.849,"body":"email, I will not respond."},{"startTime":2466.089,"endTime":2470.079,"body":"I received, I sent, after I defended"},{"startTime":2466.089,"endTime":2470.079,"body":"my PhD, I sent a number of people"},{"startTime":2470.079,"endTime":2476.139,"body":"thank you emails, and then one person"},{"startTime":2470.079,"endTime":2476.139,"body":"responded to mine with A PGP email, and"},{"startTime":2476.139,"endTime":2477.879,"body":"to this day, I still not have read it."},{"startTime":2478.524,"endTime":2478.824,"body":"yep."},{"startTime":2479.754,"endTime":2483.414,"body":"Um, this, this is the way that"},{"startTime":2479.754,"endTime":2483.414,"body":"it stays secure is when you do"},{"startTime":2483.414,"endTime":2486.114,"body":"send the encrypted email, no one"},{"startTime":2483.414,"endTime":2486.114,"body":"will ever be able to decrypt it."},{"startTime":2486.114,"endTime":2488.544,"body":"And so it stays, that part stays secure."},{"startTime":2489.024,"endTime":2492.234,"body":"Um, this is re all this metadata"},{"startTime":2489.024,"endTime":2492.234,"body":"discussion is reminding me that."},{"startTime":2492.504,"endTime":2496.884,"body":"One of the pros of email of, you"},{"startTime":2492.504,"endTime":2496.884,"body":"know, SMTP is that it is federated."},{"startTime":2497.244,"endTime":2501.204,"body":"Um, that is why it's what part of"},{"startTime":2497.244,"endTime":2501.204,"body":"the reason it's leaving this metadata"},{"startTime":2501.204,"endTime":2503.154,"body":"trail, like all over the internet."},{"startTime":2503.484,"endTime":2508.179,"body":"Um, this is like a thing that some"},{"startTime":2503.484,"endTime":2508.179,"body":"people like about the protocol,"},{"startTime":2508.479,"endTime":2511.089,"body":"that I would call it a"},{"startTime":2508.479,"endTime":2511.089,"body":"pro, that it's federated."},{"startTime":2511.089,"endTime":2512.724,"body":"I would simply state that it is federated."},{"startTime":2513.564,"endTime":2517.014,"body":"I have a bigger thing here, which is"},{"startTime":2513.564,"endTime":2517.014,"body":"just, okay, so it's federated and people"},{"startTime":2517.014,"endTime":2518.904,"body":"might or might not like federation."},{"startTime":2519.204,"endTime":2524.934,"body":"This is like a, a long time thing"},{"startTime":2519.204,"endTime":2524.934,"body":"with, uh, um, signal, like Moxie"},{"startTime":2524.934,"endTime":2527.274,"body":"wrote a whole thing about how,"},{"startTime":2524.934,"endTime":2527.274,"body":"why they weren't federated, which"},{"startTime":2527.304,"endTime":2528.864,"body":"really set people off, right?"},{"startTime":2528.924,"endTime":2530.454,"body":"And like, I feel like he was."},{"startTime":2531.159,"endTime":2532.809,"body":"Utterly vindicated on that after"},{"startTime":2532.809,"endTime":2536.499,"body":"what happened with Matrix and their"},{"startTime":2532.809,"endTime":2536.499,"body":"attempt to convert from, uh, encrypt,"},{"startTime":2536.559,"endTime":2537.819,"body":"uh, non-encrypted to encrypted."},{"startTime":2538.089,"endTime":2540.579,"body":"Um, but there's a deeper"},{"startTime":2538.089,"endTime":2540.579,"body":"issue here, right?"},{"startTime":2540.759,"endTime":2542.349,"body":"Um, people complain about federation."},{"startTime":2542.349,"endTime":2543.729,"body":"Maybe that's a colorable argument."},{"startTime":2543.729,"endTime":2546.249,"body":"People complain about"},{"startTime":2543.729,"endTime":2546.249,"body":"things being open source."},{"startTime":2546.309,"endTime":2547.749,"body":"Maybe that's a colorable argument."},{"startTime":2547.749,"endTime":2550.689,"body":"People complain about running"},{"startTime":2547.749,"endTime":2550.689,"body":"too much stuff through Google."},{"startTime":2550.959,"endTime":2553.149,"body":"Maybe that's a colorable"},{"startTime":2550.959,"endTime":2553.149,"body":"argument, but none of those"},{"startTime":2553.149,"endTime":2554.949,"body":"arguments are about security."},{"startTime":2555.339,"endTime":2555.759,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2556.059,"endTime":2561.129,"body":"If, if, if the premise is we're"},{"startTime":2556.059,"endTime":2561.129,"body":"creating a transport for messages"},{"startTime":2561.339,"endTime":2565.839,"body":"that are life or death sensitive,"},{"startTime":2561.339,"endTime":2565.839,"body":"then none of that can matter."},{"startTime":2565.959,"endTime":2570.579,"body":"It can't matter whether or not, if so, if"},{"startTime":2565.959,"endTime":2570.579,"body":"you are, if you are talking to, like, if"},{"startTime":2570.579,"endTime":2573.579,"body":"you are talking to an activist community,"},{"startTime":2570.579,"endTime":2573.579,"body":"especially if you're talking to an"},{"startTime":2573.579,"endTime":2578.019,"body":"activist community in some other country,"},{"startTime":2573.579,"endTime":2578.019,"body":"but increasingly in ours as well, right?"},{"startTime":2578.169,"endTime":2580.419,"body":"If you're talking to people who"},{"startTime":2578.169,"endTime":2580.419,"body":"are like organizing to protect"},{"startTime":2580.419,"endTime":2582.909,"body":"immigrants from ICE, for instance,"},{"startTime":2580.419,"endTime":2582.909,"body":"or something like that, right?"},{"startTime":2583.089,"endTime":2587.679,"body":"And you tell them to use pg p"},{"startTime":2583.089,"endTime":2587.679,"body":"email because the alternatives"},{"startTime":2587.679,"endTime":2591.639,"body":"are not open source or federated"},{"startTime":2587.679,"endTime":2591.639,"body":"enough for you, that's malpractice."},{"startTime":2591.694,"endTime":2591.849,"body":"It's"},{"startTime":2591.849,"endTime":2593.199,"body":"literally malpractice."},{"startTime":2593.199,"endTime":2596.259,"body":"Not in a funny way, not in a"},{"startTime":2593.199,"endTime":2596.259,"body":"dunking way, like you are committing"},{"startTime":2596.259,"endTime":2597.939,"body":"professional malpractice, right?"},{"startTime":2597.939,"endTime":2602.139,"body":"You're like, you're putting people at"},{"startTime":2597.939,"endTime":2602.139,"body":"risk to serve your weird goal of being"},{"startTime":2602.139,"endTime":2607.209,"body":"a federated or open source or non Google"},{"startTime":2602.139,"endTime":2607.209,"body":"transport, and that's fucking crazy."},{"startTime":2607.389,"endTime":2609.759,"body":"Like, I don't understand why"},{"startTime":2607.389,"endTime":2609.759,"body":"people look like, why people's"},{"startTime":2609.759,"endTime":2613.119,"body":"jaws don't drop when they see"},{"startTime":2609.759,"endTime":2613.119,"body":"people saying this stuff out loud."},{"startTime":2613.854,"endTime":2614.144,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2615.199,"endTime":2618.414,"body":"I, I think this is now getting into like"},{"startTime":2615.199,"endTime":2618.414,"body":"the crank side of the world, but like"},{"startTime":2618.894,"endTime":2621.834,"body":"I think, I think people sometimes just"},{"startTime":2618.894,"endTime":2621.834,"body":"don't believe that things are actually"},{"startTime":2621.834,"endTime":2624.684,"body":"end, end encrypted and because they"},{"startTime":2621.834,"endTime":2624.684,"body":"don't believe that they then believe"},{"startTime":2625.104,"endTime":2628.194,"body":"contrapositive things, like it should"},{"startTime":2625.104,"endTime":2628.194,"body":"be federated like, well, if they're"},{"startTime":2628.194,"endTime":2630.834,"body":"not gonna end, end encrypted, then I"},{"startTime":2628.194,"endTime":2630.834,"body":"might as well do the federated thing,"},{"startTime":2631.104,"endTime":2633.654,"body":"and this is obviously wrong to me, but"},{"startTime":2631.104,"endTime":2633.654,"body":"I think this is why we get into these"},{"startTime":2633.654,"endTime":2638.484,"body":"weird online arguments as a community"},{"startTime":2633.654,"endTime":2638.484,"body":"over and over again about this stuff"},{"startTime":2639.159,"endTime":2639.309,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":2640.664,"endTime":2642.834,"body":"Yeah, the set, the set of"},{"startTime":2640.664,"endTime":2642.834,"body":"people that think signal."},{"startTime":2643.239,"endTime":2648.039,"body":"Has a backdoor there because it's"},{"startTime":2643.239,"endTime":2648.039,"body":"centralized or because Moxie wrote"},{"startTime":2648.039,"endTime":2652.599,"body":"a blog post they didn't like, or"},{"startTime":2648.039,"endTime":2652.599,"body":"because they think the CEO is like"},{"startTime":2654.639,"endTime":2655.869,"body":"too, whatever."},{"startTime":2656.529,"endTime":2656.889,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":2658.125,"endTime":2663.495,"body":"my next argument, uh, this one is I"},{"startTime":2658.125,"endTime":2663.495,"body":"think, more small ball than the first two."},{"startTime":2663.525,"endTime":2666.225,"body":"I think the third, the, the last"},{"startTime":2663.525,"endTime":2666.225,"body":"one, there's four of them total."},{"startTime":2666.465,"endTime":2669.225,"body":"The last one gets us back to kind"},{"startTime":2666.465,"endTime":2669.225,"body":"of, you know, grand theory stuff."},{"startTime":2669.225,"endTime":2670.695,"body":"This one's really specific, right?"},{"startTime":2670.935,"endTime":2674.725,"body":"Which is everybody who uses email has"},{"startTime":2670.935,"endTime":2674.725,"body":"an archive of their email messages,"},{"startTime":2675.345,"endTime":2678.585,"body":"um, which is a thing that secure"},{"startTime":2675.345,"endTime":2678.585,"body":"messengers deliberately go out"},{"startTime":2678.585,"endTime":2680.715,"body":"of their way to not have, right?"},{"startTime":2680.805,"endTime":2684.615,"body":"So I can go and search through pretty much"},{"startTime":2680.805,"endTime":2684.615,"body":"every email that anybody's ever sent me."},{"startTime":2684.945,"endTime":2688.755,"body":"Um, going back like a staggeringly"},{"startTime":2684.945,"endTime":2688.755,"body":"far, you know, back time in history"},{"startTime":2688.755,"endTime":2690.435,"body":"and, and my Gmail account, right?"},{"startTime":2690.735,"endTime":2693.795,"body":"Um, so all of those things"},{"startTime":2690.735,"endTime":2693.795,"body":"will eventually somehow leak."},{"startTime":2693.825,"endTime":2696.915,"body":"Like every day that you hold that"},{"startTime":2693.825,"endTime":2696.915,"body":"archive, you're incurring some"},{"startTime":2696.915,"endTime":2698.205,"body":"kind of risk that it's gonna leak."},{"startTime":2698.535,"endTime":2701.325,"body":"Um, it's just inevitable that"},{"startTime":2698.535,"endTime":2701.325,"body":"at some point it has to, right?"},{"startTime":2701.505,"endTime":2704.805,"body":"So there's no plausible"},{"startTime":2701.505,"endTime":2704.805,"body":"mechanism for doing any kind of"},{"startTime":2704.835,"endTime":2707.145,"body":"disappearing messages in email."},{"startTime":2707.595,"endTime":2708.135,"body":"Um."},{"startTime":2709.02,"endTime":2712.05,"body":"And I think like, that's not like"},{"startTime":2709.02,"endTime":2712.05,"body":"the most super interesting, fun"},{"startTime":2712.05,"endTime":2713.37,"body":"technical topic to talk about."},{"startTime":2713.61,"endTime":2714.51,"body":"'cause it's really simple."},{"startTime":2714.78,"endTime":2715.29,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2715.35,"endTime":2718.62,"body":"But I think it might be pretty"},{"startTime":2715.35,"endTime":2718.62,"body":"important, um, in terms of"},{"startTime":2718.89,"endTime":2720.72,"body":"actually impacting people's safety."},{"startTime":2721.14,"endTime":2725.28,"body":"Um, just the fact that you can't court,"},{"startTime":2721.14,"endTime":2725.28,"body":"you can't like set a maximum amount"},{"startTime":2725.28,"endTime":2726.48,"body":"of time for a conversation to lift."},{"startTime":2727.04,"endTime":2727.73,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2727.805,"endTime":2731.75,"body":"I, I, I think that's actually like"},{"startTime":2727.805,"endTime":2731.75,"body":"the most important feature for like,"},{"startTime":2731.96,"endTime":2736.49,"body":"quote unquote, like secure messengers"},{"startTime":2731.96,"endTime":2736.49,"body":"for like non activists as well."},{"startTime":2736.73,"endTime":2741.17,"body":"Like, like even iMessage, like you can,"},{"startTime":2736.73,"endTime":2741.17,"body":"if you go into settings, you can set"},{"startTime":2741.17,"endTime":2746.18,"body":"your iMessage to delete after like 30"},{"startTime":2741.17,"endTime":2746.18,"body":"days, but it's like per device setting."},{"startTime":2746.65,"endTime":2747.15,"body":"Oh, that's"},{"startTime":2747.2,"endTime":2748.19,"body":"can end up with like"},{"startTime":2748.22,"endTime":2749.03,"body":"iMessages that."},{"startTime":2749.03,"endTime":2752.57,"body":"are on one device from like, I"},{"startTime":2749.03,"endTime":2752.57,"body":"just saw some that were over like"},{"startTime":2752.57,"endTime":2757.34,"body":"a year old on this, on, on this"},{"startTime":2752.57,"endTime":2757.34,"body":"laptop, even though I have it set"},{"startTime":2757.34,"endTime":2759.11,"body":"to delete after 30 days on my phone."},{"startTime":2759.8,"endTime":2765.86,"body":"Um, and, and that's not because like"},{"startTime":2759.8,"endTime":2765.86,"body":"it's a life of your death scenario or"},{"startTime":2765.86,"endTime":2772.14,"body":"because I'm an activist, but just because"},{"startTime":2765.86,"endTime":2772.14,"body":"I'm like, I. don't want these messages."},{"startTime":2772.14,"endTime":2773.88,"body":"Like, like I just"},{"startTime":2773.88,"endTime":2777.57,"body":"don't want old shit to like come up"},{"startTime":2773.88,"endTime":2777.57,"body":"and bite me regardless of what it is."},{"startTime":2777.6,"endTime":2778.185,"body":"'cause it's old"},{"startTime":2778.2,"endTime":2782.73,"body":"and like, oh, remember when, you know,"},{"startTime":2778.2,"endTime":2782.73,"body":"David cheered for the wrong football team?"},{"startTime":2782.73,"endTime":2782.97,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2782.97,"endTime":2787.68,"body":"Like, even shit like that, like, it's"},{"startTime":2782.97,"endTime":2787.68,"body":"just like, no, you don't want, um, you"},{"startTime":2787.68,"endTime":2789.57,"body":"don't want that to come, uh, to just like"},{"startTime":2791.79,"endTime":2793.5,"body":"somehow get screenshotted or whatever."},{"startTime":2793.5,"endTime":2793.74,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2794.113,"endTime":2796.243,"body":"I like the idea that at some point"},{"startTime":2794.113,"endTime":2796.243,"body":"in your past, you cheered for Ohio,"},{"startTime":2797.278,"endTime":2800.968,"body":"I cheered for Michigan State for"},{"startTime":2797.278,"endTime":2800.968,"body":"like a small period of time when I"},{"startTime":2800.968,"endTime":2803.548,"body":"was in high school and my brother"},{"startTime":2800.968,"endTime":2803.548,"body":"was a student there before I had the"},{"startTime":2803.548,"endTime":2805.378,"body":"good sense to become an"},{"startTime":2803.548,"endTime":2805.378,"body":"engineer at Michigan."},{"startTime":2808.153,"endTime":2808.393,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":2808.393,"endTime":2811.133,"body":"Like I'm in Gmail right"},{"startTime":2808.393,"endTime":2811.133,"body":"now and like Gmail's not."},{"startTime":2811.693,"endTime":2812.323,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2812.383,"endTime":2814.453,"body":"A, a fold, it's a web client."},{"startTime":2814.453,"endTime":2817.363,"body":"It has other, you know, desktop"},{"startTime":2814.453,"endTime":2817.363,"body":"clients, but like, there's no option"},{"startTime":2817.363,"endTime":2821.803,"body":"for me to just like automatically"},{"startTime":2817.363,"endTime":2821.803,"body":"delete things at, at, at any age."},{"startTime":2821.863,"endTime":2826.633,"body":"Like, I can throw stuff in the trash"},{"startTime":2821.863,"endTime":2826.633,"body":"that requires me to take an action and"},{"startTime":2826.633,"endTime":2828.823,"body":"it will auto delete stuff in the trash."},{"startTime":2829.183,"endTime":2832.993,"body":"But like, yeah, I've got thousands and"},{"startTime":2829.183,"endTime":2832.993,"body":"thousands and thousands of emails from"},{"startTime":2833.323,"endTime":2837.253,"body":"many years in my, in all like, and"},{"startTime":2833.323,"endTime":2837.253,"body":"then I've got multiple email accounts."},{"startTime":2837.853,"endTime":2840.823,"body":"And like a co a comeback you can imagine"},{"startTime":2837.853,"endTime":2840.823,"body":"is somebody saying, okay, well they'll"},{"startTime":2840.823,"endTime":2844.033,"body":"just add the feature or you'll use an"},{"startTime":2840.823,"endTime":2844.033,"body":"email client that has that feature, but"},{"startTime":2844.033,"endTime":2845.623,"body":"that's actually not the feature, right?"},{"startTime":2845.653,"endTime":2848.653,"body":"The feature is the protocol accommodation"},{"startTime":2845.653,"endTime":2848.653,"body":"where you can communicate to your"},{"startTime":2848.653,"endTime":2851.743,"body":"counterparty that they should also"},{"startTime":2848.653,"endTime":2851.743,"body":"delete these messages, which is"},{"startTime":2851.743,"endTime":2855.163,"body":"something that's like, you could write"},{"startTime":2851.743,"endTime":2855.163,"body":"a signal client that didn't honor that"},{"startTime":2855.163,"endTime":2856.573,"body":"message, but no one's gonna use it."},{"startTime":2856.693,"endTime":2857.113,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2857.353,"endTime":2860.953,"body":"Um, it's, it's the fact that the protocol"},{"startTime":2857.353,"endTime":2860.953,"body":"kind of, it, it's an accepted feature"},{"startTime":2860.953,"endTime":2862.543,"body":"of the protocol, which it will never be"},{"startTime":2862.543,"endTime":2862.663,"body":"an"},{"startTime":2862.693,"endTime":2863.353,"body":"not true."},{"startTime":2863.383,"endTime":2865.123,"body":"Pete Hegseth will use that"},{"startTime":2865.123,"endTime":2865.543,"body":"signal"},{"startTime":2866.143,"endTime":2868.603,"body":"client, but other than"},{"startTime":2866.143,"endTime":2868.603,"body":"that, no one will use it."},{"startTime":2871.138,"endTime":2872.068,"body":"Pc small group."},{"startTime":2873.758,"endTime":2881.318,"body":"Um, yeah, let, this is sort of like one"},{"startTime":2873.758,"endTime":2881.318,"body":"plus in the, in the kind of the moxie"},{"startTime":2881.348,"endTime":2884.138,"body":"know federate argument that he made."},{"startTime":2884.138,"endTime":2888.818,"body":"And we, we we're linking to the,"},{"startTime":2884.138,"endTime":2888.818,"body":"that post in, in the show notes where"},{"startTime":2888.953,"endTime":2891.113,"body":"the off chance you're listening to"},{"startTime":2888.953,"endTime":2891.113,"body":"this and you don't know who Moxie"},{"startTime":2891.113,"endTime":2893.033,"body":"is, he is the creator of Signal"},{"startTime":2893.468,"endTime":2893.828,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2893.828,"endTime":2899.048,"body":"He, he's the, the primary, the primary"},{"startTime":2893.828,"endTime":2899.048,"body":"creator of Tech Secure and, oh gosh,"},{"startTime":2899.048,"endTime":2902.708,"body":"I forget the name of the, the calling"},{"startTime":2899.048,"endTime":2902.708,"body":"app that he, that then got merged into"},{"startTime":2902.738,"endTime":2903.188,"body":"open"},{"startTime":2903.248,"endTime":2904.088,"body":"Whisper Systems."},{"startTime":2904.088,"endTime":2904.808,"body":"Open whisper."},{"startTime":2904.838,"endTime":2905.528,"body":"e the"},{"startTime":2905.528,"endTime":2906.608,"body":"original, the original"},{"startTime":2906.653,"endTime":2906.893,"body":"think was"},{"startTime":2906.983,"endTime":2907.433,"body":"the app."},{"startTime":2907.433,"endTime":2908.243,"body":"Text Secure was"},{"startTime":2908.243,"endTime":2911.453,"body":"the texting app, And the"},{"startTime":2908.243,"endTime":2911.453,"body":"company was called Whisper."},{"startTime":2911.453,"endTime":2911.723,"body":"Open."},{"startTime":2911.723,"endTime":2912.293,"body":"Whisper."},{"startTime":2912.938,"endTime":2914.168,"body":"yeah, it was Whisper system."},{"startTime":2914.168,"endTime":2917.078,"body":"And then there they were"},{"startTime":2914.168,"endTime":2917.078,"body":"involved with Twitter"},{"startTime":2917.078,"endTime":2917.738,"body":"long"},{"startTime":2917.738,"endTime":2918.508,"body":"ago, and then they."},{"startTime":2918.593,"endTime":2919.673,"body":"Twitter somehow."},{"startTime":2920.288,"endTime":2925.748,"body":"And then like, he made the new open"},{"startTime":2920.288,"endTime":2925.748,"body":"Wi Whisper systems and everything got"},{"startTime":2925.748,"endTime":2930.308,"body":"turned into the signal app and the"},{"startTime":2925.748,"endTime":2930.308,"body":"signal service and everything is, is"},{"startTime":2930.308,"endTime":2935.378,"body":"like a Cano, uh, licensed and open."},{"startTime":2935.378,"endTime":2938.798,"body":"But you know, it's a, it's"},{"startTime":2935.378,"endTime":2938.798,"body":"a, a copy left license."},{"startTime":2938.798,"endTime":2939.158,"body":"So"},{"startTime":2939.248,"endTime":2939.878,"body":"Don't look at it."},{"startTime":2939.908,"endTime":2941.828,"body":"to Yeah, well you can look at it,"},{"startTime":2941.843,"endTime":2942.323,"body":"your gaze."},{"startTime":2942.818,"endTime":2943.508,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":2944.108,"endTime":2945.938,"body":"Um, so you could run it if you wanted to."},{"startTime":2945.938,"endTime":2951.428,"body":"Everything's there, but you can't, uh,"},{"startTime":2945.938,"endTime":2951.428,"body":"anyway, but, um, because everything"},{"startTime":2951.488,"endTime":2957.908,"body":"is controlled, um, and not federated,"},{"startTime":2951.488,"endTime":2957.908,"body":"they control all the clients."},{"startTime":2957.938,"endTime":2961.358,"body":"They imple implement them"},{"startTime":2957.938,"endTime":2961.358,"body":"themselves, are able to my update"},{"startTime":2961.358,"endTime":2963.878,"body":"and move the protocol forward."},{"startTime":2964.238,"endTime":2967.448,"body":"Um, uh, because they control all"},{"startTime":2964.238,"endTime":2967.448,"body":"the clients and they're able to"},{"startTime":2967.448,"endTime":2969.368,"body":"move faster and they were able to."},{"startTime":2969.773,"endTime":2975.443,"body":"Um, make, uh, automatic deletion"},{"startTime":2969.773,"endTime":2975.443,"body":"and deleting messages for all"},{"startTime":2975.443,"endTime":2979.973,"body":"the parties, all the clients in"},{"startTime":2975.443,"endTime":2979.973,"body":"a chat, for example, a thing."},{"startTime":2980.363,"endTime":2984.983,"body":"And that is so much harder to do"},{"startTime":2980.363,"endTime":2984.983,"body":"when it's like, uh, an open protocol"},{"startTime":2984.983,"endTime":2990.863,"body":"such as something like SMTP, like you"},{"startTime":2984.983,"endTime":2990.863,"body":"can do it, but like, do you have the"},{"startTime":2990.863,"endTime":2997.133,"body":"guarantees and practice that that is"},{"startTime":2990.863,"endTime":2997.133,"body":"going to be implemented, uh, honestly"},{"startTime":2997.133,"endTime":2999.893,"body":"and correctly when it's an open protocol?"},{"startTime":2999.893,"endTime":3005.833,"body":"Like, okay, yeah, you may have like a"},{"startTime":2999.893,"endTime":3005.833,"body":"must in this, like delete this message"},{"startTime":3006.553,"endTime":3008.593,"body":"packet header or something like that."},{"startTime":3008.593,"endTime":3012.403,"body":"Delete after, you know, t plus 30"},{"startTime":3008.593,"endTime":3012.403,"body":"days according to your local clock"},{"startTime":3012.733,"endTime":3015.283,"body":"or delete for in 24 hours and like."},{"startTime":3016.348,"endTime":3021.418,"body":"As I think we all know that like you"},{"startTime":3016.348,"endTime":3021.418,"body":"can put all the musts and must snots in"},{"startTime":3021.418,"endTime":3023.638,"body":"your protocol spec as you, as you want."},{"startTime":3023.638,"endTime":3028.018,"body":"And like people may do their"},{"startTime":3023.638,"endTime":3028.018,"body":"damnedest and sometimes issues"},{"startTime":3028.018,"endTime":3029.908,"body":"happen and sometimes you fail."},{"startTime":3029.908,"endTime":3033.208,"body":"And sometimes there are bugs and sometimes"},{"startTime":3029.908,"endTime":3033.208,"body":"there are bugs in client software"},{"startTime":3033.208,"endTime":3034.618,"body":"when you control all the clients."},{"startTime":3035.098,"endTime":3041.368,"body":"But generally it is less likely that"},{"startTime":3035.098,"endTime":3041.368,"body":"you will have implementation skew, uh,"},{"startTime":3041.368,"endTime":3045.328,"body":"and bugs between interop, independent"},{"startTime":3041.368,"endTime":3045.328,"body":"interoperable implementations of"},{"startTime":3045.328,"endTime":3050.218,"body":"something like a, a delete me flag"},{"startTime":3045.328,"endTime":3050.218,"body":"on a message when you control all"},{"startTime":3050.218,"endTime":3053.008,"body":"the clients and there's only like"},{"startTime":3050.218,"endTime":3053.008,"body":"three of them in the case of signal."},{"startTime":3053.008,"endTime":3056.848,"body":"There's the iOS, there's the desktop,"},{"startTime":3053.008,"endTime":3056.848,"body":"and there's the Android clients."},{"startTime":3057.178,"endTime":3063.238,"body":"Um, that seems like less of a thing that"},{"startTime":3057.178,"endTime":3063.238,"body":"you can do on, on a protocol like SMTP,"},{"startTime":3064.663,"endTime":3064.753,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":3065.188,"endTime":3069.658,"body":"although I'm very curious how"},{"startTime":3065.188,"endTime":3069.658,"body":"ML Slike protocols will do this,"},{"startTime":3070.108,"endTime":3074.668,"body":"but I, the it, it just may be"},{"startTime":3070.108,"endTime":3074.668,"body":"maybe more of the same, of like."},{"startTime":3075.898,"endTime":3077.128,"body":"Try real hard."},{"startTime":3077.248,"endTime":3080.998,"body":"to like interoperate, aside"},{"startTime":3077.248,"endTime":3080.998,"body":"from the one obvious example."},{"startTime":3081.238,"endTime":3081.598,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":3081.898,"endTime":3083.368,"body":"Well, they really want"},{"startTime":3083.638,"endTime":3086.908,"body":"can implement disappearing messages"},{"startTime":3083.638,"endTime":3086.908,"body":"by implementing disappearing messages."},{"startTime":3086.908,"endTime":3088.643,"body":"And they happen to use"},{"startTime":3086.908,"endTime":3088.643,"body":"FLS with other WebEx"},{"startTime":3088.738,"endTime":3092.788,"body":"Europe is really incentivizing"},{"startTime":3088.738,"endTime":3092.788,"body":"people to actually make it happen."},{"startTime":3095.118,"endTime":3097.068,"body":"Yeah, I, I think I, I mean, a"},{"startTime":3095.118,"endTime":3097.068,"body":"key part about this is, this is"},{"startTime":3097.068,"endTime":3097.998,"body":"not even a cryptography thing."},{"startTime":3097.998,"endTime":3100.038,"body":"Like you can't cryptographically"},{"startTime":3097.998,"endTime":3100.038,"body":"prove deletion."},{"startTime":3100.068,"endTime":3102.548,"body":"This is purely a applica, a"},{"startTime":3100.068,"endTime":3102.548,"body":"protocol and application design"},{"startTime":3103.038,"endTime":3103.488,"body":"matter."},{"startTime":3104.615,"endTime":3107.495,"body":"Right, which makes it interesting that"},{"startTime":3104.615,"endTime":3107.495,"body":"how intractable this is for email, right?"},{"startTime":3107.495,"endTime":3109.985,"body":"It's not like, it's not even like"},{"startTime":3107.495,"endTime":3109.985,"body":"there's a theory issue for it."},{"startTime":3109.985,"endTime":3113.405,"body":"It's just like you'll never get something"},{"startTime":3109.985,"endTime":3113.405,"body":"deployed where you can reliably tell"},{"startTime":3113.405,"endTime":3114.665,"body":"somebody else to delete an email."},{"startTime":3114.665,"endTime":3114.965,"body":"So,"},{"startTime":3115.99,"endTime":3116.28,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3118.168,"endTime":3119.043,"body":"uh, last argument."},{"startTime":3119.073,"endTime":3120.513,"body":"Last argument, last argument."},{"startTime":3120.873,"endTime":3121.473,"body":"You guys ready?"},{"startTime":3121.713,"endTime":3122.253,"body":"I think we're ready."},{"startTime":3122.763,"endTime":3124.653,"body":"The last argument, long-term secrets."},{"startTime":3124.658,"endTime":3124.713,"body":"So."},{"startTime":3126.078,"endTime":3128.418,"body":"Eventually any secret"},{"startTime":3126.078,"endTime":3128.418,"body":"you hold will also leak."},{"startTime":3128.448,"endTime":3131.778,"body":"This is the forward secrecy thing,"},{"startTime":3128.448,"endTime":3131.778,"body":"which is like forward secrecy."},{"startTime":3131.898,"endTime":3135.078,"body":"If you're talking to people like I'm,"},{"startTime":3131.898,"endTime":3135.078,"body":"I'm imagining I do a lot of local"},{"startTime":3135.078,"endTime":3138.708,"body":"politics and every once in a while I'll"},{"startTime":3135.078,"endTime":3138.708,"body":"get asked about secure messaging stuff"},{"startTime":3138.708,"endTime":3140.178,"body":"from people who are not computer people."},{"startTime":3140.628,"endTime":3144.378,"body":"And I'm trying to imagine explaining"},{"startTime":3140.628,"endTime":3144.378,"body":"forward secrecy to somebody who is"},{"startTime":3144.378,"endTime":3148.293,"body":"not like, 'cause it's not like it's"},{"startTime":3144.378,"endTime":3148.293,"body":"the, the, it's the worst term, right?"},{"startTime":3148.338,"endTime":3148.488,"body":"Because"},{"startTime":3148.488,"endTime":3151.218,"body":"it's like, it's not about"},{"startTime":3148.488,"endTime":3151.218,"body":"secrecy going forward, it's about"},{"startTime":3151.218,"endTime":3152.538,"body":"secrecy going backwards, but"},{"startTime":3152.538,"endTime":3154.488,"body":"it's called forward secrecy, right?"},{"startTime":3154.578,"endTime":3159.138,"body":"So it's just the idea that every"},{"startTime":3154.578,"endTime":3159.138,"body":"solution that we have for secure email"},{"startTime":3159.738,"endTime":3162.018,"body":"is based on static long-term secrets."},{"startTime":3162.288,"endTime":3164.358,"body":"Um, there's no such thing as an ephemeral."},{"startTime":3164.778,"endTime":3167.988,"body":"You know, email secret exchange, which"},{"startTime":3164.778,"endTime":3167.988,"body":"means that, you know, everything's"},{"startTime":3167.988,"endTime":3169.308,"body":"kind of tack down, like whatever."},{"startTime":3169.308,"endTime":3172.878,"body":"If you're, you know, having ongoing"},{"startTime":3169.308,"endTime":3172.878,"body":"conversations with people, any, at"},{"startTime":3172.878,"endTime":3176.028,"body":"any point if that secret leaks, the"},{"startTime":3172.878,"endTime":3176.028,"body":"entire backlog of everything that"},{"startTime":3176.028,"endTime":3179.358,"body":"you've ever sent is also gonna leak,"},{"startTime":3176.028,"endTime":3179.358,"body":"which is a complete own goal, right?"},{"startTime":3179.358,"endTime":3182.508,"body":"You don't have to have that problem"},{"startTime":3179.358,"endTime":3182.508,"body":"in a serious messaging protocol."},{"startTime":3182.508,"endTime":3185.628,"body":"You could just do, you could fix"},{"startTime":3182.508,"endTime":3185.628,"body":"that with ephemeral key exchanges."},{"startTime":3185.778,"endTime":3187.548,"body":"So I think that's also a really big point."},{"startTime":3188.073,"endTime":3188.283,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3188.553,"endTime":3194.193,"body":"And this, this is fundamentally like"},{"startTime":3188.553,"endTime":3194.193,"body":"both how s mime and PGP based, uh,"},{"startTime":3194.223,"endTime":3198.393,"body":"encryption schemes work is you have"},{"startTime":3194.223,"endTime":3198.393,"body":"a encryption public private key pair."},{"startTime":3198.693,"endTime":3202.443,"body":"You push the public key onto one of"},{"startTime":3198.693,"endTime":3202.443,"body":"these key servers, these bulletin"},{"startTime":3202.443,"endTime":3208.413,"body":"boards, and then someone will"},{"startTime":3202.443,"endTime":3208.413,"body":"usually encrypt a message encryption"},{"startTime":3208.413,"endTime":3211.383,"body":"key to your asymmetric public key."},{"startTime":3211.383,"endTime":3215.058,"body":"It's a symmetric encryption key"},{"startTime":3211.383,"endTime":3215.058,"body":"for something like a s. Um, and"},{"startTime":3215.058,"endTime":3220.998,"body":"they encrypt it to you under your"},{"startTime":3215.058,"endTime":3220.998,"body":"public, uh, a, um, like RSA or EC,"},{"startTime":3221.388,"endTime":3223.908,"body":"um, public key encryption scheme."},{"startTime":3224.208,"endTime":3229.818,"body":"Um, and then you decrypt the key"},{"startTime":3224.208,"endTime":3229.818,"body":"with your private key that goes"},{"startTime":3229.818,"endTime":3234.168,"body":"with the public key, and then you"},{"startTime":3229.818,"endTime":3234.168,"body":"decrypt the message with that secret."},{"startTime":3234.678,"endTime":3241.608,"body":"But this is still protected by one"},{"startTime":3234.678,"endTime":3241.608,"body":"key pair that you use over and over"},{"startTime":3241.608,"endTime":3243.348,"body":"and over and over and over again."},{"startTime":3243.558,"endTime":3247.458,"body":"And so while you have a different"},{"startTime":3243.558,"endTime":3247.458,"body":"key per se message or whatever it"},{"startTime":3247.458,"endTime":3251.388,"body":"is, it's still all fundamentally"},{"startTime":3247.458,"endTime":3251.388,"body":"protected by the same key."},{"startTime":3251.928,"endTime":3258.498,"body":"This is not how it works in Signal or"},{"startTime":3251.928,"endTime":3258.498,"body":"WhatsApp or MLS or possibly matter most."},{"startTime":3258.498,"endTime":3260.298,"body":"I'm not, I forget that protocol."},{"startTime":3260.658,"endTime":3266.988,"body":"This is just not what modern encryption"},{"startTime":3260.658,"endTime":3266.988,"body":"messaging protocols are like they."},{"startTime":3267.393,"endTime":3273.783,"body":"Do a new key establishment for every"},{"startTime":3267.393,"endTime":3273.783,"body":"message, and they mix in information from"},{"startTime":3274.173,"endTime":3278.703,"body":"when you set up the session that kind of,"},{"startTime":3274.173,"endTime":3278.703,"body":"that binds to identities to a little bit."},{"startTime":3278.703,"endTime":3281.973,"body":"You attest that you are who you say"},{"startTime":3278.703,"endTime":3281.973,"body":"you are and that this is linked to"},{"startTime":3281.973,"endTime":3287.343,"body":"previous messages, but every message"},{"startTime":3281.973,"endTime":3287.343,"body":"is computed differently so that if"},{"startTime":3287.403,"endTime":3293.913,"body":"any of those previous things leaked,"},{"startTime":3287.403,"endTime":3293.913,"body":"uh, the, like, if any pieces of these"},{"startTime":3293.913,"endTime":3299.403,"body":"things leak, like you are safe, like"},{"startTime":3293.913,"endTime":3299.403,"body":"the previous things are safe, the"},{"startTime":3299.403,"endTime":3301.113,"body":"future things are kind of defunct."},{"startTime":3301.113,"endTime":3305.433,"body":"And like, depending on how the protocols,"},{"startTime":3301.113,"endTime":3305.433,"body":"uh, implemented, it can self heal."},{"startTime":3305.703,"endTime":3309.423,"body":"If you have an honest protocol and you"},{"startTime":3305.703,"endTime":3309.423,"body":"kick out the, you know, the leak at"},{"startTime":3309.423,"endTime":3315.003,"body":"the adversary or whatever, it can heal"},{"startTime":3309.423,"endTime":3315.003,"body":"and then you can get back to that same"},{"startTime":3315.003,"endTime":3317.403,"body":"security level of independent messages."},{"startTime":3317.763,"endTime":3320.403,"body":"Um, having different key"},{"startTime":3317.763,"endTime":3320.403,"body":"material that is just not how"},{"startTime":3320.403,"endTime":3323.373,"body":"it works with BDP email or my."},{"startTime":3324.123,"endTime":3326.883,"body":"I'm gonna read you something and"},{"startTime":3324.123,"endTime":3326.883,"body":"you're gonna tell me when you"},{"startTime":3326.883,"endTime":3329.373,"body":"know who the author of this thing"},{"startTime":3326.883,"endTime":3329.373,"body":"is, don't tell who the author is."},{"startTime":3329.373,"endTime":3329.763,"body":"I don't want to,"},{"startTime":3329.888,"endTime":3330.218,"body":"Okay,"},{"startTime":3330.693,"endTime":3331.508,"body":"but you'll, you'll tell me."},{"startTime":3332.013,"endTime":3332.228,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":3332.313,"endTime":3332.493,"body":"Here."},{"startTime":3332.493,"endTime":3332.943,"body":"Here we go."},{"startTime":3333.753,"endTime":3334.503,"body":"Forward."},{"startTime":3334.503,"endTime":3337.323,"body":"Secrecy is somewhat"},{"startTime":3334.503,"endTime":3337.323,"body":"overrated in end-to-end"},{"startTime":3337.323,"endTime":3338.313,"body":"encrypted messaging."},{"startTime":3338.763,"endTime":3342.693,"body":"Most people do not want a truly"},{"startTime":3338.763,"endTime":3342.693,"body":"off the record experience, but"},{"startTime":3342.693,"endTime":3344.403,"body":"instead keep their messages around."},{"startTime":3344.403,"endTime":3348.303,"body":"Definitely, as long as those old"},{"startTime":3344.403,"endTime":3348.303,"body":"messages exist and are accessible"},{"startTime":3348.303,"endTime":3351.843,"body":"to the user, they'll be just as"},{"startTime":3348.303,"endTime":3351.843,"body":"accessible to any attacker who gets"},{"startTime":3351.843,"endTime":3353.703,"body":"access to the secret key material."},{"startTime":3354.438,"endTime":3358.968,"body":"The signal protocol somewhat"},{"startTime":3354.438,"endTime":3358.968,"body":"excessively provides forward secrecy"},{"startTime":3359.118,"endTime":3361.098,"body":"for each and every message sent."},{"startTime":3361.548,"endTime":3365.058,"body":"This is sort of pointless while the"},{"startTime":3361.548,"endTime":3365.058,"body":"messages still exist on the screen."},{"startTime":3366.473,"endTime":3367.013,"body":"Uh, I."},{"startTime":3367.788,"endTime":3371.238,"body":"I, I knew after the first sentence, and I,"},{"startTime":3367.788,"endTime":3371.238,"body":"you still don't want me to say who it is"},{"startTime":3371.538,"endTime":3373.008,"body":"Now you can, you can in the abstract."},{"startTime":3373.308,"endTime":3373.758,"body":"okay."},{"startTime":3373.968,"endTime":3377.118,"body":"Uh, this, this is, this is one"},{"startTime":3373.968,"endTime":3377.118,"body":"of my, my favorite people on"},{"startTime":3377.118,"endTime":3379.908,"body":"the internet, uh, is who it is."},{"startTime":3380.898,"endTime":3384.198,"body":"Uh, someone who I've, I've talked"},{"startTime":3380.898,"endTime":3384.198,"body":"with many times, or rather I"},{"startTime":3384.198,"endTime":3385.908,"body":"don't even talk with, is maybe"},{"startTime":3384.198,"endTime":3385.908,"body":"not the right way to say it."},{"startTime":3385.908,"endTime":3388.008,"body":"Exchanged missives with,"},{"startTime":3389.028,"endTime":3390.888,"body":"I, he, he does a valuable service."},{"startTime":3390.888,"endTime":3391.068,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3391.068,"endTime":3393.408,"body":"So it's, this is a commenter"},{"startTime":3391.068,"endTime":3393.408,"body":"on Hacker News who is like the"},{"startTime":3393.408,"endTime":3395.178,"body":"designated defender of pgp."},{"startTime":3395.178,"endTime":3395.568,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3395.568,"endTime":3399.168,"body":"And like, um, it's actually pretty"},{"startTime":3395.568,"endTime":3399.168,"body":"valuable like having like something"},{"startTime":3399.168,"endTime":3402.468,"body":"like this be written 'cause it forces"},{"startTime":3399.168,"endTime":3402.468,"body":"you to kind of refine, like he has a"},{"startTime":3402.468,"endTime":3405.438,"body":"whole spiel about why authenticated"},{"startTime":3402.468,"endTime":3405.438,"body":"encryption is not always good."},{"startTime":3406.188,"endTime":3407.088,"body":"Which is like, it's real."},{"startTime":3407.118,"endTime":3409.068,"body":"I can't, I can't even remember"},{"startTime":3407.118,"endTime":3409.068,"body":"what the argument is, right."},{"startTime":3409.068,"endTime":3410.598,"body":"It's, it's hard to get your head around."},{"startTime":3410.598,"endTime":3414.228,"body":"Like it's something about, it"},{"startTime":3410.598,"endTime":3414.228,"body":"was something about like, um,"},{"startTime":3414.408,"endTime":3416.028,"body":"recovering, corrupted messages."},{"startTime":3416.718,"endTime":3419.718,"body":"Like what most users want is messages"},{"startTime":3416.718,"endTime":3419.718,"body":"where if there's like a bit flip"},{"startTime":3419.718,"endTime":3422.208,"body":"failure or something like that, they"},{"startTime":3419.718,"endTime":3422.208,"body":"can like, recover it or something."},{"startTime":3422.208,"endTime":3425.268,"body":"And authenticated encryption makes"},{"startTime":3422.208,"endTime":3425.268,"body":"that break down or something."},{"startTime":3425.628,"endTime":3428.628,"body":"Um, but it's like having"},{"startTime":3425.628,"endTime":3428.628,"body":"to articulate why."},{"startTime":3428.628,"endTime":3431.208,"body":"Of course you need, you know,"},{"startTime":3428.628,"endTime":3431.208,"body":"authenticated encryption everywhere"},{"startTime":3431.208,"endTime":3432.198,"body":"is actually kind of valuable."},{"startTime":3432.558,"endTime":3433.308,"body":"Um, it's"},{"startTime":3433.308,"endTime":3435.288,"body":"just the amount of like back"},{"startTime":3433.308,"endTime":3435.288,"body":"rationalizing you have to do to"},{"startTime":3435.288,"endTime":3437.598,"body":"keep pgp like kind of in the story."},{"startTime":3438.198,"endTime":3438.378,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3438.438,"endTime":3441.768,"body":"And he has, he has a couple of"},{"startTime":3438.438,"endTime":3441.768,"body":"posts that are not like in or not,"},{"startTime":3441.768,"endTime":3443.088,"body":"they're not entirely nonsense."},{"startTime":3443.088,"endTime":3445.728,"body":"Like he has one about"},{"startTime":3443.088,"endTime":3445.728,"body":"like 20, 48 bit RSA, like."},{"startTime":3447.288,"endTime":3447.948,"body":"It is fine."},{"startTime":3448.278,"endTime":3451.668,"body":"Is, is I think, the point of his argument"},{"startTime":3448.278,"endTime":3451.668,"body":"and it's like, you know, is it good?"},{"startTime":3451.668,"endTime":3452.898,"body":"I, I would say it's not good."},{"startTime":3452.898,"endTime":3455.208,"body":"It's something that I would, I would,"},{"startTime":3452.898,"endTime":3455.208,"body":"I mean, I would, I would do a default."},{"startTime":3455.718,"endTime":3456.198,"body":"Bad."},{"startTime":3456.318,"endTime":3456.588,"body":"Bad."},{"startTime":3456.588,"endTime":3456.798,"body":"No."},{"startTime":3456.798,"endTime":3459.793,"body":"For any RSA, but like, is it"},{"startTime":3456.798,"endTime":3459.793,"body":"the worst thing in the world?"},{"startTime":3459.973,"endTime":3460.193,"body":"No."},{"startTime":3461.493,"endTime":3461.713,"body":"Uh,"},{"startTime":3461.763,"endTime":3464.943,"body":"Like, there's, there's strong"},{"startTime":3461.763,"endTime":3464.943,"body":"arguments within like the, you know,"},{"startTime":3465.423,"endTime":3471.813,"body":"uh, proper cryptographic community"},{"startTime":3465.423,"endTime":3471.813,"body":"about how much, how big these"},{"startTime":3471.813,"endTime":3473.793,"body":"parameter sets really need to be."},{"startTime":3473.823,"endTime":3478.533,"body":"Like a lot of them are arguments about"},{"startTime":3473.823,"endTime":3478.533,"body":"symmetric primitives, like some of"},{"startTime":3478.533,"endTime":3479.823,"body":"the new stuff that's based on ketch."},{"startTime":3480.513,"endTime":3483.333,"body":"Uh, if you want to, uh,"},{"startTime":3480.513,"endTime":3483.333,"body":"look up Too Much Crypto,"},{"startTime":3483.613,"endTime":3486.543,"body":"by JP Aumasson, he makes"},{"startTime":3483.613,"endTime":3486.543,"body":"some nice arguments about."},{"startTime":3486.858,"endTime":3490.788,"body":"The bounds that we need in practice"},{"startTime":3486.858,"endTime":3490.788,"body":"against known adversaries and the"},{"startTime":3490.788,"endTime":3496.308,"body":"best known attacks, uh, so that we can"},{"startTime":3490.788,"endTime":3496.308,"body":"arguably get just as much security with"},{"startTime":3496.308,"endTime":3497.958,"body":"smaller parameter sets, blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":3498.228,"endTime":3504.888,"body":"I don't know if that applies to RSA 2048,"},{"startTime":3498.228,"endTime":3504.888,"body":"but there are good faith, uh, well-founded"},{"startTime":3504.888,"endTime":3509.418,"body":"debate about other cryptographic"},{"startTime":3504.888,"endTime":3509.418,"body":"primitives and sizes and things like that."},{"startTime":3509.583,"endTime":3514.653,"body":"Um, arguing that like you, like"},{"startTime":3509.583,"endTime":3514.653,"body":"just don't have good forward"},{"startTime":3514.653,"endTime":3518.793,"body":"security or post-compromised"},{"startTime":3514.653,"endTime":3518.793,"body":"security, um, just because you"},{"startTime":3518.793,"endTime":3519.993,"body":"don't, you don't really need it."},{"startTime":3520.173,"endTime":3523.623,"body":"Um, that that's fundamentally"},{"startTime":3520.173,"endTime":3523.623,"body":"just like giving"},{"startTime":3523.653,"endTime":3530.823,"body":"so much Lee power to a possible attacker"},{"startTime":3523.653,"endTime":3530.823,"body":"of just like, again, they only have"},{"startTime":3530.823,"endTime":3535.113,"body":"to be right once and you have to be"},{"startTime":3530.823,"endTime":3535.113,"body":"right over and over and over again."},{"startTime":3535.113,"endTime":3538.083,"body":"And having these forward, forward"},{"startTime":3535.113,"endTime":3538.083,"body":"secrecy and post-compromised"},{"startTime":3538.083,"endTime":3540.903,"body":"security protocols make it so that."},{"startTime":3541.683,"endTime":3545.913,"body":"The adversary basically has to,"},{"startTime":3541.683,"endTime":3545.913,"body":"it gets reset almost every time"},{"startTime":3545.913,"endTime":3547.863,"body":"you send a message practically."},{"startTime":3548.193,"endTime":3553.293,"body":"Um, it just makes it a lot, lot, lot,"},{"startTime":3548.193,"endTime":3553.293,"body":"lot harder for someone to just, you"},{"startTime":3553.293,"endTime":3556.293,"body":"know, take all the public information"},{"startTime":3553.293,"endTime":3556.293,"body":"you're sending in these cipher texts"},{"startTime":3556.293,"endTime":3558.663,"body":"and like get a good crack at like"},{"startTime":3559.368,"endTime":3560.448,"body":"Well if, if you assume"},{"startTime":3560.748,"endTime":3567.018,"body":"every, uh, via I Thomas's, I think"},{"startTime":3560.748,"endTime":3567.018,"body":"principle too was that every PGP message"},{"startTime":3567.018,"endTime":3569.088,"body":"ends up getting sent in plain text anyway."},{"startTime":3569.508,"endTime":3570.198,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":3570.288,"endTime":3572.538,"body":"you don't need forward secrecy then."},{"startTime":3575.253,"endTime":3576.303,"body":"There's look."},{"startTime":3576.378,"endTime":3577.523,"body":"it will simply leak."},{"startTime":3578.463,"endTime":3583.833,"body":"So there's like, there's a kernel of"},{"startTime":3578.463,"endTime":3583.833,"body":"like a, you know, a useful conversation"},{"startTime":3583.833,"endTime":3585.483,"body":"in that, in that argument that he has."},{"startTime":3585.483,"endTime":3585.753,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3585.753,"endTime":3588.153,"body":"Which is like, you know, people"},{"startTime":3585.753,"endTime":3588.153,"body":"don't, people are gonna keep"},{"startTime":3588.153,"endTime":3589.413,"body":"their messages around anyways."},{"startTime":3589.413,"endTime":3590.673,"body":"So what does forward secrecy matter?"},{"startTime":3590.673,"endTime":3594.513,"body":"And it's like there's some truth to"},{"startTime":3590.673,"endTime":3594.513,"body":"like, you know, I have an archive"},{"startTime":3594.513,"endTime":3598.143,"body":"of emails going back to like,"},{"startTime":3594.513,"endTime":3598.143,"body":"whenever Gmail started apparently."},{"startTime":3598.143,"endTime":3598.383,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3598.383,"endTime":3599.823,"body":"Like, and I just, I don't care."},{"startTime":3599.883,"endTime":3603.333,"body":"Like I'm, I'd rather have them"},{"startTime":3599.883,"endTime":3603.333,"body":"around than like opsec them out."},{"startTime":3603.333,"endTime":3603.543,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3603.543,"endTime":3606.513,"body":"Like, when I'm, I, I just don't use email"},{"startTime":3603.543,"endTime":3606.513,"body":"for stuff that, that would matter for."},{"startTime":3606.513,"endTime":3606.903,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3607.143,"endTime":3612.123,"body":"So like, the thing to, the thing to note"},{"startTime":3607.143,"endTime":3612.123,"body":"here is like, it's fine to say that email"},{"startTime":3612.123,"endTime":3613.818,"body":"is fine for some kinds of conversations."},{"startTime":3614.043,"endTime":3617.523,"body":"Like, it's fine to say that, like,"},{"startTime":3614.043,"endTime":3617.523,"body":"I'm not saying don't ever use email."},{"startTime":3618.173,"endTime":3619.103,"body":"Use email, that's fine."},{"startTime":3619.103,"endTime":3620.363,"body":"I use email for all sorts of things."},{"startTime":3620.363,"endTime":3620.663,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3620.873,"endTime":3622.403,"body":"Just don't use encrypted email."},{"startTime":3622.608,"endTime":3622.763,"body":"Don't"},{"startTime":3622.763,"endTime":3625.253,"body":"like try to send secure emails to people."},{"startTime":3625.253,"endTime":3625.613,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3625.763,"endTime":3628.613,"body":"We get in trouble when we try to"},{"startTime":3625.763,"endTime":3628.613,"body":"make this one system that we all"},{"startTime":3628.613,"endTime":3631.403,"body":"like serve life and death use cases."},{"startTime":3631.733,"endTime":3635.093,"body":"And if you can't, like if you can't"},{"startTime":3631.733,"endTime":3635.093,"body":"articulate a threat model, like if you"},{"startTime":3635.093,"endTime":3638.333,"body":"don't, if you, first of all, if you don't"},{"startTime":3635.093,"endTime":3638.333,"body":"know how to articulate a threat model, but"},{"startTime":3638.333,"endTime":3642.383,"body":"like if you can't like just roll, rattle"},{"startTime":3638.333,"endTime":3642.383,"body":"off what the different threat models are"},{"startTime":3642.383,"endTime":3647.813,"body":"for people protecting immigrants from"},{"startTime":3642.383,"endTime":3647.813,"body":"ICE versus people chatting with people"},{"startTime":3647.813,"endTime":3649.433,"body":"they met on Hacker News or whatever."},{"startTime":3649.433,"endTime":3649.703,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3649.703,"endTime":3652.253,"body":"Like then you shouldn't"},{"startTime":3649.703,"endTime":3652.253,"body":"be giving people advice."},{"startTime":3652.253,"endTime":3652.523,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3652.523,"endTime":3657.113,"body":"And this brings me back to just like"},{"startTime":3652.523,"endTime":3657.113,"body":"digital security guides for activists and"},{"startTime":3657.113,"endTime":3659.933,"body":"things like this where there's clearly"},{"startTime":3657.113,"endTime":3659.933,"body":"no threat model in this stuff, right?"},{"startTime":3659.933,"endTime":3660.293,"body":"Like it's just,"},{"startTime":3660.473,"endTime":3663.983,"body":"it's not based on an understanding"},{"startTime":3660.473,"endTime":3663.983,"body":"of who their adversaries are."},{"startTime":3664.163,"endTime":3666.953,"body":"And what's really frustrating"},{"startTime":3664.163,"endTime":3666.953,"body":"about that is the real advice"},{"startTime":3666.953,"endTime":3668.033,"body":"is not that complicated."},{"startTime":3668.063,"endTime":3669.083,"body":"It's not like, this is just"},{"startTime":3669.083,"endTime":3671.393,"body":"not that, like we don't have"},{"startTime":3669.083,"endTime":3671.393,"body":"the sophistication that we need"},{"startTime":3671.393,"endTime":3672.593,"body":"to give people good advice."},{"startTime":3672.773,"endTime":3676.313,"body":"It's just you need people to just be"},{"startTime":3672.773,"endTime":3676.313,"body":"able to say like, just use signal."},{"startTime":3676.698,"endTime":3677.148,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3677.298,"endTime":3678.708,"body":"Forget about all the politics of it."},{"startTime":3678.708,"endTime":3681.678,"body":"Forget about like whatever you think"},{"startTime":3678.708,"endTime":3681.678,"body":"about Moxie Marlinspike or federation."},{"startTime":3681.678,"endTime":3683.298,"body":"Just, just use Signal, right?"},{"startTime":3683.358,"endTime":3685.278,"body":"Um, probably don't use Firefox."},{"startTime":3685.338,"endTime":3686.328,"body":"You know, just things like that."},{"startTime":3686.628,"endTime":3691.158,"body":"Um, which again is just like this whole"},{"startTime":3686.628,"endTime":3691.158,"body":"thing right now for me is just my red"},{"startTime":3691.158,"endTime":3692.958,"body":"flags for digital security guides."},{"startTime":3692.988,"endTime":3695.528,"body":"One of them being anybody"},{"startTime":3692.988,"endTime":3695.528,"body":"talking about PGP."},{"startTime":3695.843,"endTime":3696.063,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":3696.362,"endTime":3702.992,"body":"And like number one for me, a lot of"},{"startTime":3696.362,"endTime":3702.992,"body":"people when you're making recommendations"},{"startTime":3702.992,"endTime":3707.852,"body":"of like how to stay, how to, how"},{"startTime":3702.992,"endTime":3707.852,"body":"to achieve digital security, uh,"},{"startTime":3708.032,"endTime":3711.752,"body":"trying to achieve a goal, you're"},{"startTime":3708.032,"endTime":3711.752,"body":"trying to organize, you're trying to"},{"startTime":3711.752,"endTime":3716.252,"body":"keep, keep your team secure, you're"},{"startTime":3711.752,"endTime":3716.252,"body":"trying to serve some community."},{"startTime":3716.612,"endTime":3720.872,"body":"Um, it needs to be easy to"},{"startTime":3716.612,"endTime":3720.872,"body":"use and easy to get right."},{"startTime":3721.172,"endTime":3724.952,"body":"It can't be, make sure you"},{"startTime":3721.172,"endTime":3724.952,"body":"use super special client."},{"startTime":3725.012,"endTime":3727.742,"body":"Oh, you know, it might not"},{"startTime":3725.012,"endTime":3727.742,"body":"be available on this phone."},{"startTime":3728.042,"endTime":3730.472,"body":"Oh, like you have to make"},{"startTime":3728.042,"endTime":3730.472,"body":"sure you tick this box."},{"startTime":3730.472,"endTime":3731.762,"body":"You have to add this extension."},{"startTime":3731.762,"endTime":3734.462,"body":"You have to do X, y, Z to make"},{"startTime":3731.762,"endTime":3734.462,"body":"sure that you use it right."},{"startTime":3735.542,"endTime":3736.472,"body":"That's bound to fail."},{"startTime":3736.532,"endTime":3739.232,"body":"One, it's bound to fail because it's"},{"startTime":3736.532,"endTime":3739.232,"body":"hard to get right and so you might"},{"startTime":3739.232,"endTime":3740.492,"body":"actually get a security failure."},{"startTime":3740.492,"endTime":3743.792,"body":"Two, it's a lot of work for people to do."},{"startTime":3744.272,"endTime":3748.172,"body":"If the other of the alternatives"},{"startTime":3744.272,"endTime":3748.172,"body":"are download signal, we"},{"startTime":3748.172,"endTime":3749.522,"body":"will add you to the chat."},{"startTime":3750.602,"endTime":3755.372,"body":"That's so much easier to one do period"},{"startTime":3750.602,"endTime":3755.372,"body":"and get right, because you don't have"},{"startTime":3755.372,"endTime":3759.422,"body":"to do a bunch of extra steps to get"},{"startTime":3755.372,"endTime":3759.422,"body":"it right and achieve better security."},{"startTime":3759.864,"endTime":3765.474,"body":"yeah, I feel like a lot of people are just"},{"startTime":3759.864,"endTime":3765.474,"body":"trying to, uh, they have their values and"},{"startTime":3765.474,"endTime":3769.914,"body":"they're trying to say, oh, you should do"},{"startTime":3765.474,"endTime":3769.914,"body":"X, Y, Z because this is, this, uh, aligns"},{"startTime":3769.914,"endTime":3776.094,"body":"with my values as opposed to people trying"},{"startTime":3769.914,"endTime":3776.094,"body":"to achieve something in the real world."},{"startTime":3776.214,"endTime":3781.134,"body":"And if it's too complicated and it"},{"startTime":3776.214,"endTime":3781.134,"body":"takes too much work to achieve good"},{"startTime":3781.134,"endTime":3783.324,"body":"security, they're not gonna do it."},{"startTime":3783.384,"endTime":3787.044,"body":"Or if they try to do it, they will"},{"startTime":3783.384,"endTime":3787.044,"body":"fit, they will fail and they'll open"},{"startTime":3787.044,"endTime":3790.314,"body":"themselves up to a vulnerability and"},{"startTime":3787.044,"endTime":3790.314,"body":"like, and then what's the point of"},{"startTime":3790.314,"endTime":3792.084,"body":"the technology in the first place?"},{"startTime":3792.572,"endTime":3795.486,"body":"and one, one thing I kind of wanted"},{"startTime":3792.572,"endTime":3795.486,"body":"to point out is like, oh, if you're,"},{"startTime":3795.486,"endTime":3800.196,"body":"if you've got an archive of all your"},{"startTime":3795.486,"endTime":3800.196,"body":"messages forever and theoretically"},{"startTime":3800.196,"endTime":3803.556,"body":"your messages will just leak because"},{"startTime":3800.196,"endTime":3803.556,"body":"they're around forever and you know,"},{"startTime":3803.556,"endTime":3807.286,"body":"so what's the point of, of forward"},{"startTime":3803.556,"endTime":3807.286,"body":"security and, and like what one."},{"startTime":3807.996,"endTime":3809.766,"body":"It's a belt and suspenders things."},{"startTime":3809.766,"endTime":3813.126,"body":"It's the Swiss Swiss cheese"},{"startTime":3809.766,"endTime":3813.126,"body":"approach of security and systems."},{"startTime":3813.126,"endTime":3814.956,"body":"It's not any one thing."},{"startTime":3815.286,"endTime":3819.576,"body":"It's if you don't have forward"},{"startTime":3815.286,"endTime":3819.576,"body":"security, you are more vulnerable"},{"startTime":3819.576,"endTime":3821.796,"body":"to one of these things going wrong."},{"startTime":3822.006,"endTime":3825.366,"body":"An adversary, you know, pointing"},{"startTime":3822.006,"endTime":3825.366,"body":"one of these keys or a key"},{"startTime":3825.366,"endTime":3826.836,"body":"server or whatever it is."},{"startTime":3827.196,"endTime":3829.476,"body":"Um, well the key one of these keys."},{"startTime":3829.806,"endTime":3831.696,"body":"Um, and then everything falls apart."},{"startTime":3832.056,"endTime":3835.716,"body":"But if you don't have a giant me, you"},{"startTime":3832.056,"endTime":3835.716,"body":"know, message archive, like, you know,"},{"startTime":3835.776,"endTime":3838.386,"body":"the, the blast radius is, uh, less bad."},{"startTime":3838.386,"endTime":3840.906,"body":"And like if you don't have all"},{"startTime":3838.386,"endTime":3840.906,"body":"this metadata, then like the"},{"startTime":3840.906,"endTime":3842.466,"body":"blast radius is, is less bad."},{"startTime":3842.796,"endTime":3846.216,"body":"It's all of these things to"},{"startTime":3842.796,"endTime":3846.216,"body":"together are pretty fucking bad."},{"startTime":3846.756,"endTime":3851.856,"body":"If any one of these things was less"},{"startTime":3846.756,"endTime":3851.856,"body":"bad, then it would be less bad."},{"startTime":3851.856,"endTime":3856.476,"body":"If all anyone, if any of these things were"},{"startTime":3851.856,"endTime":3856.476,"body":"less bad together, we probably wouldn't"},{"startTime":3856.476,"endTime":3858.456,"body":"be talking about this, uh, at all."},{"startTime":3858.456,"endTime":3861.276,"body":"But they are all pretty bad together."},{"startTime":3861.576,"endTime":3864.486,"body":"So the forward security, you know."},{"startTime":3865.176,"endTime":3867.666,"body":"Just don't try to do"},{"startTime":3865.176,"endTime":3867.666,"body":"encrypted email, use signal."},{"startTime":3867.666,"endTime":3868.386,"body":"Use WhatsApp."},{"startTime":3868.746,"endTime":3871.026,"body":"Like some people don't"},{"startTime":3868.746,"endTime":3871.026,"body":"like WhatsApp for reasons."},{"startTime":3871.356,"endTime":3874.476,"body":"Using WhatsApp is way better than trying"},{"startTime":3871.356,"endTime":3874.476,"body":"to use encrypted email, in my opinion."},{"startTime":3875.076,"endTime":3875.256,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":3875.361,"endTime":3877.821,"body":"It's also like the only way"},{"startTime":3875.361,"endTime":3877.821,"body":"to talk to people in Europe."},{"startTime":3878.121,"endTime":3878.571,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":3879.973,"endTime":3881.083,"body":"I, I was blown away by that."},{"startTime":3881.083,"endTime":3884.053,"body":"Every time I, I go somewhere that is,"},{"startTime":3881.083,"endTime":3884.053,"body":"especially like Southern Europe or"},{"startTime":3884.293,"endTime":3887.803,"body":"Northern Africa, it's like people will"},{"startTime":3884.293,"endTime":3887.803,"body":"just message me randomly on WhatsApp"},{"startTime":3887.803,"endTime":3892.063,"body":"and I will have no idea who they are,"},{"startTime":3887.803,"endTime":3892.063,"body":"but better than anything else possible."},{"startTime":3892.093,"endTime":3892.573,"body":"It's awesome."},{"startTime":3893.136,"endTime":3893.316,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":3893.692,"endTime":3897.562,"body":"Use signal, use WhatsApp if"},{"startTime":3893.692,"endTime":3897.562,"body":"you need to encrypt files,"},{"startTime":3897.697,"endTime":3898.357,"body":"use Tor."},{"startTime":3899.092,"endTime":3904.972,"body":"yeah, if you need to use Tor, install"},{"startTime":3899.092,"endTime":3904.972,"body":"the Tor browser, then you're done."},{"startTime":3905.362,"endTime":3907.012,"body":"It's a good, it's based on Firefox."},{"startTime":3907.102,"endTime":3907.852,"body":"It's a pretty good browser,"},{"startTime":3909.682,"endTime":3909.862,"body":"Huh?"},{"startTime":3910.357,"endTime":3911.212,"body":"Did, didn't we just tell"},{"startTime":3911.212,"endTime":3912.627,"body":"people not to use Firefox?"},{"startTime":3913.847,"endTime":3914.027,"body":"wait."},{"startTime":3914.027,"endTime":3914.357,"body":"Hold on."},{"startTime":3914.897,"endTime":3915.287,"body":"Hold on."},{"startTime":3916.757,"endTime":3918.377,"body":"William, are you gonna"},{"startTime":3916.757,"endTime":3918.377,"body":"respond to this or am I"},{"startTime":3918.772,"endTime":3918.862,"body":"Oh,"},{"startTime":3918.937,"endTime":3920.347,"body":"Actually, I think"},{"startTime":3920.447,"endTime":3923.177,"body":"can't, I can't tell if dear,"},{"startTime":3920.447,"endTime":3923.177,"body":"just trying to make my brain pop."},{"startTime":3923.617,"endTime":3925.477,"body":"Sorry, but the Tor"},{"startTime":3925.517,"endTime":3926.597,"body":"just not ironically."},{"startTime":3927.337,"endTime":3930.252,"body":"the Tor browser, is like"},{"startTime":3927.337,"endTime":3930.252,"body":"it's, everything's set up."},{"startTime":3930.252,"endTime":3930.962,"body":"Everything's good to go."},{"startTime":3931.552,"endTime":3936.487,"body":"And I think the other options are"},{"startTime":3931.552,"endTime":3936.487,"body":"less less tailored, but sorry."},{"startTime":3936.787,"endTime":3938.017,"body":"Yes, I said that"},{"startTime":3938.242,"endTime":3941.002,"body":"I, I'm guessing for reasons that"},{"startTime":3938.242,"endTime":3941.002,"body":"you're probably familiar with Dan"},{"startTime":3941.002,"endTime":3944.212,"body":"Guido's argument about why the tor"},{"startTime":3941.002,"endTime":3944.212,"body":"browser bundle is the literal least"},{"startTime":3944.212,"endTime":3945.532,"body":"safest browser to use in the world."},{"startTime":3946.877,"endTime":3948.862,"body":"I, I, I've definitely heard"},{"startTime":3946.877,"endTime":3948.862,"body":"him make the argument before."},{"startTime":3948.862,"endTime":3949.957,"body":"I, I can't remember"},{"startTime":3948.862,"endTime":3949.957,"body":"off the top of my head."},{"startTime":3950.572,"endTime":3955.552,"body":"So, so it's, it's, it's a combination"},{"startTime":3950.572,"endTime":3955.552,"body":"of things where it's like, so"},{"startTime":3955.552,"endTime":3956.557,"body":"first of all, you're using torque."},{"startTime":3957.277,"endTime":3960.812,"body":"Right, which, like from a traffic"},{"startTime":3957.277,"endTime":3960.812,"body":"analytic perspective, you can see that"},{"startTime":3960.877,"endTime":3962.347,"body":"somebody's using Tor, right?"},{"startTime":3962.587,"endTime":3966.757,"body":"You are using Firefox, which is the"},{"startTime":3962.587,"endTime":3966.757,"body":"least secure of the mainstream browsers,"},{"startTime":3967.147,"endTime":3971.977,"body":"and you're using a fork of Firefox,"},{"startTime":3967.147,"endTime":3971.977,"body":"like a tracking fork of Firefox, and"},{"startTime":3971.977,"endTime":3976.627,"body":"you're collapsing all of the Firefox"},{"startTime":3971.977,"endTime":3976.627,"body":"vulnerabilities down to a very small"},{"startTime":3976.657,"endTime":3978.997,"body":"set of tor browser bundle targets."},{"startTime":3979.417,"endTime":3983.737,"body":"Um, so like the exploits that you need for"},{"startTime":3979.417,"endTime":3983.737,"body":"that, like you, you, you, like a serious"},{"startTime":3983.737,"endTime":3986.797,"body":"adversary needs like a battery of exploits"},{"startTime":3983.737,"endTime":3986.797,"body":"for like all the different versions,"},{"startTime":3986.797,"endTime":3989.647,"body":"whatever they're using, but they don't"},{"startTime":3986.797,"endTime":3989.647,"body":"need that for tor browser bundle people."},{"startTime":3990.172,"endTime":3990.472,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":3991.044,"endTime":3992.881,"body":"Yeah, I've definitely heard it make"},{"startTime":3991.044,"endTime":3992.881,"body":"that argument before and I, I mean,"},{"startTime":3992.881,"endTime":3996.301,"body":"I find it convincing, especially for,"},{"startTime":3992.881,"endTime":3996.301,"body":"I mean, I, I, I think it was, it was"},{"startTime":3996.301,"endTime":4001.761,"body":"especially true maybe 10, 12 years ago"},{"startTime":3996.301,"endTime":4001.761,"body":"when the state of Firefox container or"},{"startTime":4001.761,"endTime":4003.531,"body":"isolation was, was really, really bad."},{"startTime":4004.491,"endTime":4004.731,"body":"It's"},{"startTime":4004.731,"endTime":4007.281,"body":"been a long time since, since I've"},{"startTime":4004.731,"endTime":4007.281,"body":"looked at browser security and so."},{"startTime":4008.241,"endTime":4012.591,"body":"I would say Firefox has come a"},{"startTime":4008.241,"endTime":4012.591,"body":"long way, especially in terms of"},{"startTime":4012.651,"endTime":4020.121,"body":"sandboxing and a lot of memory safety"},{"startTime":4012.651,"endTime":4020.121,"body":"integration into, into the whole stack."},{"startTime":4021.006,"endTime":4025.281,"body":"I think arguably Safari is less"},{"startTime":4021.006,"endTime":4025.281,"body":"good than Firefox at this point."},{"startTime":4025.851,"endTime":4027.651,"body":"For some of those reasons."},{"startTime":4028.221,"endTime":4032.481,"body":"Um, but yes, if you're, if you're"},{"startTime":4028.221,"endTime":4032.481,"body":"using, if you're using to browser,"},{"startTime":4032.481,"endTime":4037.431,"body":"you are a little bit sticking out in"},{"startTime":4032.481,"endTime":4037.431,"body":"terms of, you know, fingerprinting"},{"startTime":4037.431,"endTime":4038.631,"body":"and all that sort of stuff."},{"startTime":4039.231,"endTime":4044.541,"body":"Um, in terms of, I don't think"},{"startTime":4039.231,"endTime":4044.541,"body":"we're, we're really selling people."},{"startTime":4044.571,"endTime":4050.271,"body":"You should use Tor, we're mostly doing the"},{"startTime":4044.571,"endTime":4050.271,"body":"meme of use signal, use Tor, and if you,"},{"startTime":4050.331,"endTime":4055.431,"body":"if you wanna use Tor, like downloading the"},{"startTime":4050.331,"endTime":4055.431,"body":"to browser and just using it is like the"},{"startTime":4055.431,"endTime":4058.161,"body":"easiest, straightforward way to do that."},{"startTime":4058.791,"endTime":4061.371,"body":"But yeah, just nevermind"},{"startTime":4062.046,"endTime":4065.376,"body":"Is this is, it's, it's not a super"},{"startTime":4062.046,"endTime":4065.376,"body":"strongly held opinion of mine."},{"startTime":4065.376,"endTime":4069.126,"body":"It's just a, it's like, it's, it's an"},{"startTime":4065.376,"endTime":4069.126,"body":"argument I've had beaten in for me, in,"},{"startTime":4069.126,"endTime":4071.286,"body":"into me by, uh, Dan Guido and the Grugq"},{"startTime":4072.801,"endTime":4076.161,"body":"Uh, but if, if you use safari, you"},{"startTime":4072.801,"endTime":4076.161,"body":"get to use the best named mitigation"},{"startTime":4076.161,"endTime":4077.751,"body":"ever, which is the giga cage."},{"startTime":4078.291,"endTime":4078.411,"body":"the"},{"startTime":4078.651,"endTime":4078.871,"body":"the"},{"startTime":4078.921,"endTime":4080.331,"body":"if the giga cage"},{"startTime":4080.506,"endTime":4080.631,"body":"gig?"},{"startTime":4080.786,"endTime":4081.766,"body":"Oh, giga Cage."},{"startTime":4082.161,"endTime":4082.581,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":4083.071,"endTime":4083.831,"body":"I want to gig a cage."},{"startTime":4083.961,"endTime":4087.981,"body":"this is my favorite mitigation ever"},{"startTime":4083.961,"endTime":4087.981,"body":"added to a browser, uh, which is,"},{"startTime":4088.011,"endTime":4090.921,"body":"uh, people kept using Ray Buffer"},{"startTime":4088.011,"endTime":4090.921,"body":"for exploits instead of safari."},{"startTime":4091.221,"endTime":4095.331,"body":"And so what they did was they put every,"},{"startTime":4091.221,"endTime":4095.331,"body":"um, uh, they put the, the backing store"},{"startTime":4095.331,"endTime":4100.671,"body":"for all of, for a ray buffer into a,"},{"startTime":4095.331,"endTime":4100.671,"body":"uh, uh, and mapped four gigabyte key"},{"startTime":4100.761,"endTime":4104.661,"body":"region and made all, uh, offsets 32 bed."},{"startTime":4104.781,"endTime":4105.801,"body":"So you just can't escape"},{"startTime":4106.161,"endTime":4106.341,"body":"that"},{"startTime":4106.341,"endTime":4106.731,"body":"region."},{"startTime":4107.131,"endTime":4107.781,"body":"This is,"},{"startTime":4108.321,"endTime":4111.861,"body":"this is a Dan Kaminsky idea"},{"startTime":4108.321,"endTime":4111.861,"body":"from like the mid two thousands."},{"startTime":4112.281,"endTime":4116.391,"body":"This was like his big memory, like his"},{"startTime":4112.281,"endTime":4116.391,"body":"big memory safety thing was 64 bits."},{"startTime":4117.171,"endTime":4117.591,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":4118.191,"endTime":4121.446,"body":"this is also how the V"},{"startTime":4118.191,"endTime":4121.446,"body":"eight sandbox works as"},{"startTime":4121.461,"endTime":4123.861,"body":"well as, it's a little part of it."},{"startTime":4123.981,"endTime":4126.951,"body":"So like the, the V eight sandbox"},{"startTime":4123.981,"endTime":4126.951,"body":"is a little more than that, but to"},{"startTime":4126.951,"endTime":4130.821,"body":"make the, the memory regions work,"},{"startTime":4126.951,"endTime":4130.821,"body":"they have a variety of slightly"},{"startTime":4130.821,"endTime":4135.171,"body":"larger than four gigabyte regions"},{"startTime":4130.821,"endTime":4135.171,"body":"that are only addressed in 32 bits"},{"startTime":4135.171,"endTime":4137.121,"body":"that you, you can't get off of, um,"},{"startTime":4137.421,"endTime":4137.856,"body":"cool."},{"startTime":4138.261,"endTime":4140.781,"body":"in theory, but like then,"},{"startTime":4138.261,"endTime":4140.781,"body":"then there's a bit more to it"},{"startTime":4141.096,"endTime":4142.056,"body":"There's always, yeah."},{"startTime":4142.686,"endTime":4146.076,"body":"We're only gonna find out over the"},{"startTime":4142.686,"endTime":4146.076,"body":"next 20 years that Dan Kaminsky was"},{"startTime":4146.076,"endTime":4150.036,"body":"literally right about everything,"},{"startTime":4146.076,"endTime":4150.036,"body":"just in like subtle ways."},{"startTime":4150.55,"endTime":4155.29,"body":"someone has one of those Wall"},{"startTime":4150.55,"endTime":4155.29,"body":"Street Journal dot profile pictures."},{"startTime":4155.965,"endTime":4156.805,"body":"The stipple painting."},{"startTime":4157.12,"endTime":4157.54,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4157.54,"endTime":4162.64,"body":"the stipple painting you, they just, that"},{"startTime":4157.54,"endTime":4162.64,"body":"just makes you correct about everything."},{"startTime":4163.585,"endTime":4165.625,"body":"I was, I was wrong to"},{"startTime":4163.585,"endTime":4165.625,"body":"doubt the Stipple painting."},{"startTime":4166.011,"endTime":4167.391,"body":"Rip, rip Dan Kaminsky."},{"startTime":4168.636,"endTime":4168.966,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":4170.094,"endTime":4177.474,"body":"Alright, so I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go"},{"startTime":4170.094,"endTime":4177.474,"body":"install some random mass PGP extension"},{"startTime":4177.474,"endTime":4182.484,"body":"in my browser, and I'm just gonna start"},{"startTime":4177.474,"endTime":4182.484,"body":"sending the, the wrap up for this, uh,"},{"startTime":4182.514,"endTime":4184.764,"body":"recording with an an encrypted email."},{"startTime":4185.364,"endTime":4186.414,"body":"Um, I hope you"},{"startTime":4186.594,"endTime":4187.684,"body":"make sure you use Tor browser."},{"startTime":4188.394,"endTime":4188.604,"body":"huh?"},{"startTime":4188.904,"endTime":4189.444,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":4189.504,"endTime":4191.514,"body":"e armor of the episode notes."},{"startTime":4191.559,"endTime":4191.829,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":4192.099,"endTime":4192.429,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4192.429,"endTime":4192.759,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4193.304,"endTime":4196.184,"body":"I want, I want it Cast5, the"},{"startTime":4193.304,"endTime":4196.184,"body":"official Canadian block Cipher."},{"startTime":4196.914,"endTime":4197.094,"body":"right."},{"startTime":4197.109,"endTime":4200.499,"body":"Uh, and apologies to the person"},{"startTime":4197.109,"endTime":4200.499,"body":"who sent me that PGP email on"},{"startTime":4200.499,"endTime":4203.499,"body":"the off chance you're listening"},{"startTime":4200.499,"endTime":4203.499,"body":"because it's kind of identifiable."},{"startTime":4204.819,"endTime":4206.249,"body":"Maybe it was a really mean email."},{"startTime":4207.609,"endTime":4208.149,"body":"Could have been."},{"startTime":4208.149,"endTime":4208.839,"body":"Who knows."},{"startTime":4209.747,"endTime":4210.137,"body":"all right."},{"startTime":4210.227,"endTime":4210.557,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":4210.737,"endTime":4216.197,"body":"Uh, if you can stop using encrypted"},{"startTime":4210.737,"endTime":4216.197,"body":"email and stop, stop telling"},{"startTime":4216.197,"endTime":4217.247,"body":"people to use encrypted email."},{"startTime":4217.247,"endTime":4222.137,"body":"It's just not, not good in our opinion."},{"startTime":4222.857,"endTime":4223.637,"body":"Good note, Deirdre,"},{"startTime":4224.042,"endTime":4224.372,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":4224.777,"endTime":4228.347,"body":"cryptography, whatever"},{"startTime":4224.777,"endTime":4228.347,"body":"is a something of who?"},{"startTime":4228.347,"endTime":4230.987,"body":"With, of wait."},{"startTime":4230.987,"endTime":4234.017,"body":"It's, it's a side project"},{"startTime":4230.987,"endTime":4234.017,"body":"of you, you, me, and David."},{"startTime":4234.287,"endTime":4234.827,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4235.677,"endTime":4236.167,"body":"exactly."},{"startTime":4236.822,"endTime":4240.172,"body":"And our editor is Netty Smith"},{"startTime":4236.822,"endTime":4240.172,"body":"and we sell merch at merch dot"},{"startTime":4240.172,"endTime":4241.992,"body":"securitycryptographywhatever dot com."},{"startTime":4242.012,"endTime":4242.252,"body":"And we"},{"startTime":4242.252,"endTime":4243.172,"body":"thank you for listening"},{"startTime":4243.182,"endTime":4245.552,"body":"and we thank William for"},{"startTime":4243.182,"endTime":4245.552,"body":"coming on this episode with us."},{"startTime":4246.452,"endTime":4248.042,"body":"William, thank you very much."},{"startTime":4248.242,"endTime":4248.532,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4248.532,"endTime":4248.837,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":4248.837,"endTime":4249.197,"body":"for having me."},{"startTime":4249.662,"endTime":4250.322,"body":"Bye."}]}