{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.044,"endTime":4.424,"body":"no no no no no no no No No one"},{"startTime":0.044,"endTime":4.424,"body":"has ever made anything easier by"},{"startTime":4.424,"endTime":9.063,"body":"introducing threshold cryptography"},{"startTime":4.424,"endTime":9.063,"body":"have at best made something possible"},{"startTime":9.086,"endTime":11.041,"body":"but you haven't made anything easier"},{"startTime":16.676,"endTime":17.516,"body":"Hello."},{"startTime":17.546,"endTime":19.736,"body":"Welcome to Security"},{"startTime":17.546,"endTime":19.736,"body":"Cryptography, whatever."},{"startTime":19.736,"endTime":20.516,"body":"I'm Deirdre."},{"startTime":21.016,"endTime":21.565,"body":"I'm David"},{"startTime":21.865,"endTime":23.035,"body":"I am pretty amused right now."},{"startTime":23.535,"endTime":24.465,"body":"That's Thomas."},{"startTime":24.465,"endTime":26.475,"body":"And today we have a special guest."},{"startTime":26.475,"endTime":28.005,"body":"Hi Matt Bernhard."},{"startTime":28.505,"endTime":28.625,"body":"there."},{"startTime":28.625,"endTime":29.44,"body":"It's great to be here."},{"startTime":29.842,"endTime":30.202,"body":"Thanks."},{"startTime":30.262,"endTime":34.012,"body":"Um, we invited Matt on today"},{"startTime":30.262,"endTime":34.012,"body":"because there was a very funny"},{"startTime":34.012,"endTime":38.452,"body":"thing that happened in the world of"},{"startTime":34.012,"endTime":38.452,"body":"cryptography, uh, this past week."},{"startTime":38.842,"endTime":38.979,"body":"Uh."},{"startTime":39.279,"endTime":42.712,"body":"you're you're shooting too low"},{"startTime":39.279,"endTime":42.712,"body":"This was in the New York Times"},{"startTime":43.012,"endTime":43.342,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":43.342,"endTime":43.822,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":43.953,"endTime":44.113,"body":"Although"},{"startTime":44.182,"endTime":45.307,"body":"We, we wouldn't be talking."},{"startTime":45.738,"endTime":47.508,"body":"they were in the New York"},{"startTime":45.738,"endTime":47.508,"body":"Times because of my tweet."},{"startTime":47.928,"endTime":49.398,"body":"This all stems from my tweet."},{"startTime":50.09,"endTime":50.61,"body":"you sure?"},{"startTime":51.05,"endTime":52.17,"body":"I didn't see your tweet."},{"startTime":52.67,"endTime":54.44,"body":"I decided to be confident about this fact."},{"startTime":54.44,"endTime":54.74,"body":"So,"},{"startTime":55.24,"endTime":55.98,"body":"Um, I'll,"},{"startTime":56.056,"endTime":57.311,"body":"didn't even know you tweeted"},{"startTime":57.47,"endTime":60.595,"body":"either, but my, I, I smashed my"},{"startTime":57.47,"endTime":60.595,"body":"phone, so I'm all, I'm all out"},{"startTime":60.595,"endTime":62.395,"body":"of the loop, uh, uh, on Twitter."},{"startTime":62.395,"endTime":62.935,"body":"At least"},{"startTime":63.195,"endTime":67.84,"body":"so the the International Association of"},{"startTime":63.195,"endTime":67.84,"body":"Cryptographic Research of Crypto logic."},{"startTime":67.88,"endTime":68.39,"body":"research,"},{"startTime":68.455,"endTime":69.205,"body":"the logic."},{"startTime":69.575,"endTime":76.445,"body":"Yes, the IACR, uh, holds, what is it,"},{"startTime":69.575,"endTime":76.445,"body":"annual Or semi-annual elections, um,"},{"startTime":76.505,"endTime":79.025,"body":"for roles within that organization."},{"startTime":79.025,"endTime":82.535,"body":"IACR runs a bunch of the"},{"startTime":79.025,"endTime":82.535,"body":"major crypto conferences."},{"startTime":83.015,"endTime":86.765,"body":"Um, so these are like the people"},{"startTime":83.015,"endTime":86.765,"body":"that manage that whole enterprise."},{"startTime":86.765,"endTime":91.835,"body":"They have elections of all their members,"},{"startTime":86.765,"endTime":91.835,"body":"um, you know, to elect directors of"},{"startTime":91.835,"endTime":94.505,"body":"the organization and a president and"},{"startTime":91.835,"endTime":94.505,"body":"a bunch of other things like that."},{"startTime":95.005,"endTime":100.525,"body":"Um, they just held their election, which"},{"startTime":95.005,"endTime":100.525,"body":"I, um, found out because they emailed me,"},{"startTime":100.855,"endTime":107.905,"body":"um, to say that the election had failed"},{"startTime":100.855,"endTime":107.905,"body":"due to the fact that one of the trustees"},{"startTime":107.905,"endTime":112.515,"body":"of the election the cryptographic key"},{"startTime":107.905,"endTime":112.515,"body":"that was required to decrypt the results."},{"startTime":112.965,"endTime":116.295,"body":"So they ran the entire election,"},{"startTime":112.965,"endTime":116.295,"body":"but are unable to decrypt it"},{"startTime":116.685,"endTime":119.025,"body":"because somebody lost a USB key."},{"startTime":119.525,"endTime":120.215,"body":"That's what happened."},{"startTime":120.505,"endTime":125.745,"body":"Or the file that on the USB"},{"startTime":120.505,"endTime":125.745,"body":"key or something like that."},{"startTime":125.995,"endTime":126.145,"body":"that."},{"startTime":126.145,"endTime":130.285,"body":"it is a USB key that holds the"},{"startTime":126.145,"endTime":130.285,"body":"threshold key required to decrypt"},{"startTime":130.375,"endTime":132.645,"body":"the, uh, the IACR election."},{"startTime":132.93,"endTime":133.22,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":133.425,"endTime":135.555,"body":"they, they use a system called Helios,"},{"startTime":135.665,"endTime":136.325,"body":"Yes,"},{"startTime":136.665,"endTime":137.715,"body":"for this whole scheme."},{"startTime":138.105,"endTime":143.415,"body":"Um, and I guess Helios has been used"},{"startTime":138.105,"endTime":143.415,"body":"for other things besides this election."},{"startTime":143.735,"endTime":144.275,"body":"yes."},{"startTime":144.465,"endTime":144.795,"body":"we."},{"startTime":145.19,"endTime":148.88,"body":"They've been using Helios for a long,"},{"startTime":145.19,"endTime":148.88,"body":"long time, and I've used Helios in"},{"startTime":148.88,"endTime":153.44,"body":"other election thingies and other,"},{"startTime":148.88,"endTime":153.44,"body":"the Helios has been used and it's"},{"startTime":153.44,"endTime":155.093,"body":"been around for over 15 years."},{"startTime":155.71,"endTime":162.21,"body":"Uh, but this one was very funny because"},{"startTime":155.71,"endTime":162.21,"body":"it's the cryptographers can't decrypt."},{"startTime":163.607,"endTime":167.927,"body":"So, Uh, we're gonna get into the Helios"},{"startTime":163.607,"endTime":167.927,"body":"details and online elections and all"},{"startTime":167.927,"endTime":175.297,"body":"that, but I think like a better place to"},{"startTime":167.927,"endTime":175.297,"body":"start out with is just  what the IACR is."},{"startTime":175.537,"endTime":180.217,"body":"So I'd like to start with the fact"},{"startTime":175.537,"endTime":180.217,"body":"that, um, I'm pretty sure half the"},{"startTime":180.217,"endTime":185.497,"body":"internet now believes that every"},{"startTime":180.217,"endTime":185.497,"body":"protocol ever presented at an IACR"},{"startTime":185.497,"endTime":187.212,"body":"conference is now backdoored by the NSA."},{"startTime":187.712,"endTime":189.852,"body":"Uh, they're just papers like I"},{"startTime":191.099,"endTime":194.579,"body":"That was, that was true of the post"},{"startTime":191.099,"endTime":194.579,"body":"quantum cryptography con competition"},{"startTime":194.579,"endTime":196.789,"body":"too, and all that stuff is backdoored."},{"startTime":197.292,"endTime":198.058,"body":"Oh, all of it?"},{"startTime":198.109,"endTime":198.529,"body":"this is an"},{"startTime":198.678,"endTime":199.138,"body":"all of it."},{"startTime":199.408,"endTime":199.698,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":199.759,"endTime":201.289,"body":"this is an actual bogus election."},{"startTime":201.319,"endTime":204.019,"body":"This is like The January"},{"startTime":201.319,"endTime":204.019,"body":"6th of cryptography."},{"startTime":204.853,"endTime":205.114,"body":"didn't."},{"startTime":205.414,"endTime":206.734,"body":"count was in fact stopped"},{"startTime":206.803,"endTime":209.323,"body":"Somebody didn't like the"},{"startTime":206.803,"endTime":209.323,"body":"way that count was going."},{"startTime":209.823,"endTime":211.178,"body":"What are they hiding from us"},{"startTime":211.437,"endTime":213.597,"body":"So Deirdre, can you"},{"startTime":211.437,"endTime":213.597,"body":"help me understand more?"},{"startTime":213.837,"endTime":219.327,"body":"I, I happen to be a member of the IACR"},{"startTime":213.837,"endTime":219.327,"body":"and the reason for that is, um, I went to"},{"startTime":219.327,"endTime":224.337,"body":"meet David and Deirdre at, uh, real World"},{"startTime":219.327,"endTime":224.337,"body":"Crypto, which is the best of all of the,"},{"startTime":224.367,"endTime":226.737,"body":"uh, annual cryptography events, right."},{"startTime":226.827,"endTime":228.927,"body":"Uh, last year it was,"},{"startTime":226.827,"endTime":228.927,"body":"hell, Was it last year?"},{"startTime":228.927,"endTime":229.797,"body":"I think it was last year,"},{"startTime":230.297,"endTime":231.617,"body":"Was two years ago"},{"startTime":231.716,"endTime":232.136,"body":"ago."},{"startTime":232.157,"endTime":233.117,"body":"a year and a half ago"},{"startTime":233.617,"endTime":235.417,"body":"It was held in Toronto, uh,"},{"startTime":235.507,"endTime":235.797,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":235.807,"endTime":237.997,"body":"a driving distance from my, from my place."},{"startTime":237.997,"endTime":240.607,"body":"So, uh, we drove up, I"},{"startTime":237.997,"endTime":240.607,"body":"picked up David on the way."},{"startTime":240.877,"endTime":243.187,"body":"Um, and then we went to real world Crypto."},{"startTime":243.547,"endTime":251.197,"body":"Um, to get into RWC, I was required to"},{"startTime":243.547,"endTime":251.197,"body":"join the IACR David disputes that this was"},{"startTime":251.197,"endTime":255.607,"body":"a requirement, but I remember distinctly"},{"startTime":251.197,"endTime":255.607,"body":"not wanting to be a member of the IACR or"},{"startTime":255.882,"endTime":256.362,"body":"Revenue"},{"startTime":256.597,"endTime":257.527,"body":"that it would have no value."},{"startTime":257.592,"endTime":257.862,"body":"value."},{"startTime":257.917,"endTime":259.537,"body":"be a member of this organization."},{"startTime":259.807,"endTime":261.277,"body":"And yet I am a member."},{"startTime":261.277,"endTime":264.787,"body":"And I know that because I was told A"},{"startTime":261.277,"endTime":264.787,"body":"to vote and b, the vote didn't work."},{"startTime":265.267,"endTime":269.017,"body":"Um, so you guys could read me a little"},{"startTime":265.267,"endTime":269.017,"body":"bit more about what this organization"},{"startTime":269.017,"endTime":272.557,"body":"actually does and really what the"},{"startTime":269.017,"endTime":272.557,"body":"implications of the, the vote are."},{"startTime":273.057,"endTime":278.402,"body":"It's, um, it's just another academic,"},{"startTime":273.057,"endTime":278.402,"body":"uh, body that runs, uh, conferences"},{"startTime":278.462,"endTime":284.852,"body":"and, uh, lets you, so the, the flag,"},{"startTime":278.462,"endTime":284.852,"body":"the, the tent poles for, uh, being"},{"startTime":284.852,"endTime":289.922,"body":"a, uh, academic cryptographer, uh,"},{"startTime":284.852,"endTime":289.922,"body":"is the CRYPTO conference, which is"},{"startTime":289.922,"endTime":292.892,"body":"held in Santa Barbara every year,"},{"startTime":289.922,"endTime":292.892,"body":"and it's been going for 40 years now."},{"startTime":292.892,"endTime":298.232,"body":"I think EUROCRYPT, which is in a different"},{"startTime":292.892,"endTime":298.232,"body":"place in Europe or every year, and now"},{"startTime":298.232,"endTime":300.572,"body":"ASIACRYPT, and those are the big three."},{"startTime":300.902,"endTime":305.552,"body":"Um, they're considered some, like the most"},{"startTime":300.902,"endTime":305.552,"body":"prestigious academic, like purely, not"},{"startTime":305.552,"endTime":311.012,"body":"purely theoretical, but like straight up"},{"startTime":305.552,"endTime":311.012,"body":"cryptography, cryology, and, you know, a"},{"startTime":311.012,"endTime":313.232,"body":"little bit of a, you know, attack stuff."},{"startTime":313.412,"endTime":313.982,"body":"Uh."},{"startTime":314.402,"endTime":315.272,"body":"In the world."},{"startTime":315.332,"endTime":318.782,"body":"Um, there are other venues where you"},{"startTime":315.332,"endTime":318.782,"body":"can do more applied stuff that's more"},{"startTime":318.782,"endTime":322.102,"body":"of like a security be, for straight"},{"startTime":318.782,"endTime":322.102,"body":"up cryptographers who are doing"},{"startTime":322.102,"endTime":326.482,"body":"straight up academic cryptography,"},{"startTime":322.102,"endTime":326.482,"body":"uh, those venues run and operated"},{"startTime":326.482,"endTime":330.142,"body":"by the IACR, uh, is where it's at."},{"startTime":330.142,"endTime":334.882,"body":"And then they add, they added"},{"startTime":330.142,"endTime":334.882,"body":"the Real World Crypto Symposium"},{"startTime":334.882,"endTime":336.472,"body":"a couple, like over 10 years ago"},{"startTime":336.472,"endTime":336.772,"body":"now."},{"startTime":336.772,"endTime":339.712,"body":"And that became very, very popular"},{"startTime":336.772,"endTime":339.712,"body":"because it's not a place where you"},{"startTime":339.712,"endTime":343.642,"body":"submit papers and get published in peer"},{"startTime":339.712,"endTime":343.642,"body":"review, but you submit presentations and"},{"startTime":343.642,"endTime":349.342,"body":"they, they also get reviewed for, um,"},{"startTime":343.642,"endTime":349.342,"body":"you know, quality and uh, uh, relevance."},{"startTime":349.432,"endTime":352.792,"body":"And it also app apply appeals to"},{"startTime":349.432,"endTime":352.792,"body":"people in industry who may not be"},{"startTime":353.182,"endTime":356.542,"body":"publishing cryptography papers, but"},{"startTime":353.182,"endTime":356.542,"body":"they're very interested in like what,"},{"startTime":356.572,"endTime":359.542,"body":"how this stuff gets deployed and, and"},{"startTime":356.572,"endTime":359.542,"body":"results that affect the real world."},{"startTime":360.192,"endTime":363.432,"body":"WC is the good one because it's where"},{"startTime":360.192,"endTime":363.432,"body":"most of the good attack presentations"},{"startTime":363.432,"endTime":364.937,"body":"get published, or at least most of the"},{"startTime":364.963,"endTime":369.553,"body":"Real world crypto is just"},{"startTime":364.963,"endTime":369.553,"body":"the worst MTV reality show"},{"startTime":370.017,"endTime":373.077,"body":"I remember it not being an"},{"startTime":370.017,"endTime":373.077,"body":"especially good MTV reality show"},{"startTime":373.347,"endTime":373.527,"body":"Do"},{"startTime":373.636,"endTime":373.876,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":374.376,"endTime":378.156,"body":"the directors of the ICR pick"},{"startTime":374.376,"endTime":378.156,"body":"the program committees for RWC?"},{"startTime":378.656,"endTime":384.346,"body":"Um, I think you have a. Chair"},{"startTime":378.656,"endTime":384.346,"body":"of the actual, uh, of the actual"},{"startTime":384.346,"endTime":385.996,"body":"conference and the actual symposium."},{"startTime":385.996,"endTime":389.296,"body":"You have several chairs and they"},{"startTime":385.996,"endTime":389.296,"body":"help choose the program committee"},{"startTime":389.296,"endTime":393.406,"body":"and they help us like try to find"},{"startTime":389.296,"endTime":393.406,"body":"them because for example, for crypto"},{"startTime":393.406,"endTime":397.246,"body":"euro, cryp, inia crypt, you might need"},{"startTime":393.406,"endTime":397.246,"body":"like a hundred people to be on the"},{"startTime":397.246,"endTime":399.916,"body":"program committee because there're"},{"startTime":397.246,"endTime":399.916,"body":"just so many submissions to review."},{"startTime":400.276,"endTime":403.456,"body":"Um, I think it's smaller for real"},{"startTime":400.276,"endTime":403.456,"body":"world crypto to review submissions"},{"startTime":403.486,"endTime":404.776,"body":"'cause it's not full on papers."},{"startTime":405.196,"endTime":406.546,"body":"Um, it's presentations."},{"startTime":406.791,"endTime":409.821,"body":"And then they, there's a bunch"},{"startTime":406.791,"endTime":409.821,"body":"of other smaller, uh, conferences"},{"startTime":409.821,"endTime":412.211,"body":"for, uh, real World IACR."},{"startTime":412.481,"endTime":414.611,"body":"Uh, and then the other thing"},{"startTime":412.481,"endTime":414.611,"body":"that IACR does, they run the"},{"startTime":414.611,"endTime":417.131,"body":"Eprint Crypto Cryptology archive."},{"startTime":417.131,"endTime":421.031,"body":"It's basically archive, you know,"},{"startTime":417.131,"endTime":421.031,"body":"where you've published all sorts of,"},{"startTime":421.061,"endTime":426.016,"body":"uh, you know, pre-print papers from"},{"startTime":421.061,"endTime":426.016,"body":"all over science, uh, and academia."},{"startTime":426.166,"endTime":430.876,"body":"But, uh, IACR and the cryptographers"},{"startTime":426.166,"endTime":430.876,"body":"basically have their own, and we don't"},{"startTime":430.876,"endTime":435.076,"body":"know why they, they just aren't on archive"},{"startTime":430.876,"endTime":435.076,"body":"like everybody other, every other field."},{"startTime":435.076,"endTime":439.426,"body":"But they, they do and they, uh,"},{"startTime":435.076,"endTime":439.426,"body":"that is a really good place to"},{"startTime":439.426,"endTime":443.386,"body":"keep up to date on the latest"},{"startTime":439.426,"endTime":443.386,"body":"developments in academic cryptography."},{"startTime":443.416,"endTime":445.31,"body":"'cause basically everyone"},{"startTime":443.416,"endTime":445.31,"body":"submits a paper there."},{"startTime":445.756,"endTime":452.116,"body":"Uh, whether it's, uh, just a idea"},{"startTime":445.756,"endTime":452.116,"body":"or like a very important results"},{"startTime":452.116,"endTime":454.516,"body":"that every, they want to see"},{"startTime":452.116,"endTime":454.516,"body":"everybody, that everyone to see."},{"startTime":454.996,"endTime":456.466,"body":"Um, yeah."},{"startTime":456.966,"endTime":460.236,"body":"runs the three most important"},{"startTime":456.966,"endTime":460.236,"body":"conferences in cryptography."},{"startTime":460.236,"endTime":460.476,"body":"Uh,"},{"startTime":460.976,"endTime":461.336,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":461.396,"endTime":466.016,"body":"Conferences where, uh, papers are peer"},{"startTime":461.396,"endTime":466.016,"body":"reviewed and published, and then they"},{"startTime":466.016,"endTime":471.507,"body":"also run real world crypto, which is very"},{"startTime":466.016,"endTime":471.507,"body":"important for applied industry stuff."},{"startTime":471.807,"endTime":473.082,"body":"so in the field."},{"startTime":473.487,"endTime":476.517,"body":"They're doing essentially the same"},{"startTime":473.487,"endTime":476.517,"body":"thing that a CM does for computer"},{"startTime":476.517,"endTime":482.533,"body":"science or usix or, or like Springer"},{"startTime":476.517,"endTime":482.533,"body":"for the other sciences that are even"},{"startTime":482.833,"endTime":483.523,"body":"There"},{"startTime":483.876,"endTime":486.516,"body":"Springer's a publisher, but a CM and Usix."},{"startTime":486.546,"endTime":487.056,"body":"Correct?"},{"startTime":487.086,"endTime":487.656,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":487.716,"endTime":488.353,"body":"It's just, it's,"},{"startTime":488.353,"endTime":495.426,"body":"specific to, uh, you know, robust quote"},{"startTime":488.353,"endTime":495.426,"body":"academic cryptography for under peer"},{"startTime":495.548,"endTime":500.018,"body":"They're arguably more competent because"},{"startTime":495.548,"endTime":500.018,"body":"they run multiple good conferences"},{"startTime":500.048,"endTime":504.248,"body":"Whereas like US N runs well USIX runs"},{"startTime":500.048,"endTime":504.248,"body":"a few in a different fields but they"},{"startTime":504.248,"endTime":509.348,"body":"run one security one and then a CM runs"},{"startTime":504.248,"endTime":509.348,"body":"one security conference And then IEEE"},{"startTime":509.348,"endTime":512.708,"body":"runs one security conference that's not"},{"startTime":509.348,"endTime":512.708,"body":"in Oakland and everyone calls Oakland"},{"startTime":513.038,"endTime":518.398,"body":"Um but the IECR manages to run more"},{"startTime":513.038,"endTime":518.398,"body":"than one top tier cryptography con"},{"startTime":518.518,"endTime":521.368,"body":"conference which is actually kind of"},{"startTime":518.518,"endTime":521.368,"body":"impressive for an organization to do"},{"startTime":521.868,"endTime":522.158,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":522.533,"endTime":523.403,"body":"This makes sense."},{"startTime":523.553,"endTime":528.423,"body":"So yeah, I still don't know why"},{"startTime":523.553,"endTime":528.423,"body":"the New York Times cares about."},{"startTime":528.923,"endTime":529.403,"body":"The vote."},{"startTime":529.853,"endTime":530.483,"body":"I do get"},{"startTime":530.549,"endTime":532.094,"body":"Who who was the author"},{"startTime":532.594,"endTime":533.064,"body":"Let's see."},{"startTime":533.404,"endTime":534.184,"body":"Uh, it was,"},{"startTime":534.269,"endTime":536.729,"body":"was, a, it's, it's a fellow, it's"},{"startTime":534.269,"endTime":536.729,"body":"a, it's a, it's a person, like"},{"startTime":536.729,"endTime":539.549,"body":"an early career journalist that"},{"startTime":536.729,"endTime":539.549,"body":"like got a break on this story."},{"startTime":539.974,"endTime":540.194,"body":"um,"},{"startTime":540.694,"endTime":541.504,"body":"a little blurb about it at the"},{"startTime":541.52,"endTime":541.74,"body":"Oh"},{"startTime":541.744,"endTime":541.894,"body":"of it."},{"startTime":541.894,"endTime":542.644,"body":"I'm sure they're great."},{"startTime":542.644,"endTime":544.504,"body":"I'm just saying there's a little"},{"startTime":542.644,"endTime":544.504,"body":"blurb about this at the bottom."},{"startTime":544.804,"endTime":547.444,"body":"I too was wondering whether this"},{"startTime":544.804,"endTime":547.444,"body":"was like A beat reporter at the"},{"startTime":547.444,"endTime":548.974,"body":"New York Times that found this out."},{"startTime":549.424,"endTime":551.494,"body":"Um, but, uh, no, apparently not."},{"startTime":551.905,"endTime":554.185,"body":"A person who's assigned to"},{"startTime":551.905,"endTime":554.185,"body":"cryptography the whole time"},{"startTime":554.685,"endTime":557.235,"body":"Well, I mean, there's people that"},{"startTime":554.685,"endTime":557.235,"body":"are assigned to like the internet or"},{"startTime":557.235,"endTime":558.945,"body":"like, you know, computer security."},{"startTime":558.945,"endTime":560.475,"body":"Those are topics that"},{"startTime":558.945,"endTime":560.475,"body":"actually get covered."},{"startTime":560.975,"endTime":563.075,"body":"the entire angle on"},{"startTime":560.975,"endTime":563.075,"body":"this story is just that."},{"startTime":563.075,"endTime":563.735,"body":"It's really funny,"},{"startTime":564.174,"endTime":564.594,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":564.594,"endTime":571.584,"body":"I mean, I literally cryptographers have"},{"startTime":564.594,"endTime":571.584,"body":"a fancy way of doing their elections"},{"startTime":571.614,"endTime":576.414,"body":"with fancy cryptography, and even the"},{"startTime":571.614,"endTime":576.414,"body":"cryptographers can't hold onto their"},{"startTime":576.414,"endTime":578.814,"body":"keys to do their fancy decryption."},{"startTime":578.814,"endTime":581.114,"body":"Like, I think that's, that's it."},{"startTime":581.614,"endTime":584.314,"body":"Among the four of us, could"},{"startTime":581.614,"endTime":584.314,"body":"anybody competently describe"},{"startTime":584.314,"endTime":586.024,"body":"how the system roughly works?"},{"startTime":586.524,"endTime":593.094,"body":"So one thing that I did learn, like I'm,"},{"startTime":586.524,"endTime":593.094,"body":"I'm threshold pilled because I worked on"},{"startTime":593.154,"endTime":595.374,"body":"threshold signatures for several years."},{"startTime":595.374,"endTime":600.884,"body":"When I was working on, uh, uh, when"},{"startTime":595.374,"endTime":600.884,"body":"I was at DC Helios has, I'm pretty"},{"startTime":600.884,"endTime":604.364,"body":"sure elgamal encrypted ballots."},{"startTime":604.864,"endTime":606.664,"body":"And that's kind of funny because Oh wow."},{"startTime":606.934,"endTime":610.324,"body":"We're, we're, we're, we are"},{"startTime":606.934,"endTime":610.324,"body":"still doing elgamal in 2025."},{"startTime":610.354,"endTime":610.894,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":611.025,"endTime":611.955,"body":"This is the last place"},{"startTime":612.455,"endTime":612.995,"body":"There are others."},{"startTime":613.495,"endTime":613.765,"body":"there,"},{"startTime":613.922,"endTime":616.562,"body":"It's not the only, it's not"},{"startTime":613.922,"endTime":616.562,"body":"the only end-to-end voting"},{"startTime":616.772,"endTime":618.062,"body":"library that uses Elgamal."},{"startTime":618.092,"endTime":621.047,"body":"In fact, there are two others that"},{"startTime":618.092,"endTime":621.047,"body":"I know of offhand that are used."},{"startTime":621.43,"endTime":625.18,"body":"it kind of makes sense because of the pro,"},{"startTime":621.43,"endTime":625.18,"body":"because literally Elgamal is basically"},{"startTime":625.18,"endTime":628.48,"body":"like public key encryption with, I"},{"startTime":625.18,"endTime":628.48,"body":"mean, I'm assuming it's elliptic curves."},{"startTime":628.48,"endTime":630.67,"body":"It's not, you know, finite"},{"startTime":628.48,"endTime":630.67,"body":"field or something like that."},{"startTime":630.67,"endTime":631.88,"body":"Maybe it's, I, I"},{"startTime":631.88,"endTime":631.98,"body":"you're assuming."},{"startTime":632.48,"endTime":634.85,"body":"looked at the paper and it just,"},{"startTime":632.48,"endTime":634.85,"body":"it just said Elgamal, and I'm just"},{"startTime":634.85,"endTime":638.09,"body":"like, okay, I have to go, go dig"},{"startTime":634.85,"endTime":638.09,"body":"into the code to actually figure out"},{"startTime":638.09,"endTime":642.47,"body":"if it's, you know, something not as"},{"startTime":638.09,"endTime":642.47,"body":"fancy, but, we'll, we can go see."},{"startTime":642.97,"endTime":643.69,"body":"but the nice"},{"startTime":643.716,"endTime":646.356,"body":"we could find out on the voting site"},{"startTime":643.716,"endTime":646.356,"body":"right now that, so the whole thing is"},{"startTime":646.42,"endTime":646.75,"body":"Oh,"},{"startTime":646.926,"endTime":647.406,"body":"a web app."},{"startTime":648.124,"endTime":651.154,"body":"it is to via a web app, uh, which is nice."},{"startTime":651.389,"endTime":652.259,"body":"is cosmetic."},{"startTime":653.022,"endTime":653.832,"body":"Oh, shush."},{"startTime":654.332,"endTime":659.402,"body":"We have an old, old episode where we"},{"startTime":654.332,"endTime":659.402,"body":"can like, refer to whether or not that"},{"startTime":659.432,"endTime":663.392,"body":"you believe in that or not, but I, no,"},{"startTime":659.432,"endTime":663.392,"body":"I do not think the, the Helios hosting"},{"startTime":663.392,"endTime":665.312,"body":"is like doing any of the fancy, like."},{"startTime":665.812,"endTime":671.902,"body":"Pinning and hashing and website, web"},{"startTime":665.812,"endTime":671.902,"body":"app, transparency stuff that we, we all"},{"startTime":671.902,"endTime":677.092,"body":"recommend for like secure delivery of"},{"startTime":671.902,"endTime":677.092,"body":"clients based apps, uh, in the browser."},{"startTime":677.092,"endTime":678.972,"body":"But we're just gonna leave that aside"},{"startTime":679.272,"endTime":680.382,"body":"We all recommend"},{"startTime":680.556,"endTime":680.886,"body":"Nope,"},{"startTime":680.951,"endTime":686.643,"body":"Well, you know, if you want to really"},{"startTime":680.951,"endTime":686.643,"body":"try to get application level security"},{"startTime":686.643,"endTime":690.753,"body":"for a web app, a client side web app,"},{"startTime":686.643,"endTime":690.753,"body":"anywhere close to like what you can"},{"startTime":690.753,"endTime":696.573,"body":"get for a mobile app or a, uh, desktop"},{"startTime":690.753,"endTime":696.573,"body":"app with, you know, comp, comparable"},{"startTime":696.573,"endTime":701.223,"body":"security, you need some extra stuff on top"},{"startTime":696.573,"endTime":701.223,"body":"because it's, otherwise it's just tofu,"},{"startTime":701.223,"endTime":703.503,"body":"whatever the server gives you, right?"},{"startTime":704.003,"endTime":704.453,"body":"It is."},{"startTime":704.513,"endTime":709.803,"body":"the, the code for Helios version that"},{"startTime":704.513,"endTime":709.803,"body":"is run for this election, which is"},{"startTime":709.803,"endTime":712.533,"body":"hosted on helios voting.org, is public."},{"startTime":712.833,"endTime":715.443,"body":"There's a link to it at the top"},{"startTime":712.833,"endTime":715.443,"body":"of it and it's finite field Almo?"},{"startTime":717.455,"endTime":717.555,"body":"It is."},{"startTime":717.591,"endTime":720.921,"body":"I say this is from this is from oh"},{"startTime":717.591,"endTime":720.921,"body":"eight It's definitely finite fields"},{"startTime":721.221,"endTime":721.805,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":722.105,"endTime":722.615,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":722.675,"endTime":728.535,"body":"So we have finite field and as far as"},{"startTime":722.675,"endTime":728.535,"body":"I can understand it, there's, it's,"},{"startTime":728.535,"endTime":733.485,"body":"it's using elgamal to basically commit"},{"startTime":728.535,"endTime":733.485,"body":"to this stuff and the, the to, to"},{"startTime":733.485,"endTime":736.245,"body":"voting values, um, in these ballots."},{"startTime":736.245,"endTime":738.585,"body":"And it's, you, you have a ballot"},{"startTime":736.245,"endTime":738.585,"body":"and you can tick more than one"},{"startTime":738.585,"endTime":742.035,"body":"value, or you can tick yes or no"},{"startTime":738.585,"endTime":742.035,"body":"for, for like a ballot position or,"},{"startTime":742.035,"endTime":743.475,"body":"you know, whatever, a referendum."},{"startTime":743.865,"endTime":748.725,"body":"Um, which is one of the things in those"},{"startTime":743.865,"endTime":748.725,"body":"most recent election, um, and these,"},{"startTime":749.115,"endTime":752.955,"body":"the nice properties of elga, it lets you"},{"startTime":749.115,"endTime":752.955,"body":"add up stuff that is still encrypted."},{"startTime":753.455,"endTime":756.275,"body":"It lets you tally these,"},{"startTime":753.455,"endTime":756.275,"body":"these things in a private way."},{"startTime":756.665,"endTime":760.265,"body":"Um, and then at the very end, if"},{"startTime":756.665,"endTime":760.265,"body":"you know the secret, you can decrypt"},{"startTime":760.475,"endTime":764.255,"body":"these final values or, you know,"},{"startTime":760.475,"endTime":764.255,"body":"you, you have to know all enough"},{"startTime":764.255,"endTime":765.545,"body":"of the secret or all of the secret."},{"startTime":766.045,"endTime":770.485,"body":"I thought that, you know, in this day"},{"startTime":766.045,"endTime":770.485,"body":"and age, they were using like a T of"},{"startTime":770.485,"endTime":774.535,"body":"N threshold of key holders to decrypt,"},{"startTime":770.485,"endTime":774.535,"body":"because that's a thing that we've"},{"startTime":774.535,"endTime":776.485,"body":"known how to do for a very long time."},{"startTime":776.695,"endTime":778.105,"body":"They're not, they're not doing that."},{"startTime":778.495,"endTime":781.885,"body":"It just sounds like they just have,"},{"startTime":778.495,"endTime":781.885,"body":"like, you have a third and you have"},{"startTime":781.885,"endTime":785.725,"body":"a third and you have a third, and"},{"startTime":781.885,"endTime":785.725,"body":"you have to smush them all together"},{"startTime":785.725,"endTime":790.045,"body":"to just get the decryption secret of"},{"startTime":785.725,"endTime":790.045,"body":"the, like tally the, you know, homo"},{"startTime":790.545,"endTime":795.075,"body":"added up elgamal ballots, and then"},{"startTime":790.545,"endTime":795.075,"body":"you can decrypt them at the very end."},{"startTime":795.445,"endTime":796.135,"body":"hold on a second."},{"startTime":796.135,"endTime":796.435,"body":"So"},{"startTime":796.846,"endTime":798.766,"body":"Be fair That's still a threshold"},{"startTime":798.855,"endTime":798.915,"body":"It"},{"startTime":798.985,"endTime":799.43,"body":"I might be learning."},{"startTime":799.545,"endTime":799.755,"body":"is,"},{"startTime":800.055,"endTime":801.58,"body":"I feel like I might be"},{"startTime":800.055,"endTime":801.58,"body":"learning something here."},{"startTime":801.58,"endTime":801.94,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":802.15,"endTime":806.61,"body":"So RSA is famously homomorphic"},{"startTime":802.15,"endTime":806.61,"body":"with respect to multiplication."},{"startTime":807.11,"endTime":809.18,"body":"like a, there are attacks"},{"startTime":807.11,"endTime":809.18,"body":"that work that way, right?"},{"startTime":809.45,"endTime":809.93,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":810.235,"endTime":810.325,"body":"yes."},{"startTime":810.78,"endTime":812.65,"body":"El Gamal is Additively."},{"startTime":812.65,"endTime":812.66,"body":"Homomorphic."},{"startTime":813.16,"endTime":814.42,"body":"I think so."},{"startTime":814.92,"endTime":815.7,"body":"Matt Bernard is,"},{"startTime":815.827,"endTime":818.822,"body":"Well, it's, it's, yeah,"},{"startTime":815.827,"endTime":818.822,"body":"additively, homomorphic by"},{"startTime":818.822,"endTime":820.292,"body":"multiplying ciphertext together."},{"startTime":820.652,"endTime":821.072,"body":"So"},{"startTime":821.175,"endTime":822.105,"body":"yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":822.135,"endTime":825.705,"body":"So like you, you multiply the things"},{"startTime":822.135,"endTime":825.705,"body":"together, but underneath the value is"},{"startTime":825.705,"endTime":830.355,"body":"like, you know, here's, you know, one"},{"startTime":825.705,"endTime":830.355,"body":"for Thomas, one for David, and yeah."},{"startTime":830.855,"endTime":831.065,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":831.249,"endTime":834.689,"body":"I think it's, it's this, it's"},{"startTime":831.249,"endTime":834.689,"body":"the Scalor multiplication nurse,"},{"startTime":834.989,"endTime":837.205,"body":"that, that we've forgotten"},{"startTime":834.989,"endTime":837.205,"body":"more cryptography than he"},{"startTime":837.205,"endTime":838.675,"body":"had, that he he'd ever had."},{"startTime":838.675,"endTime":840.235,"body":"But like, I didn't, I've"},{"startTime":840.377,"endTime":840.947,"body":"it's still true."},{"startTime":840.947,"endTime":844.397,"body":"This is the one small sliver of it"},{"startTime":840.947,"endTime":844.397,"body":"that I, I know sort of well sometimes."},{"startTime":844.675,"endTime":848.095,"body":"It's, if it's cryptography that it,"},{"startTime":844.675,"endTime":848.095,"body":"that no one would ever have to pen test."},{"startTime":848.095,"endTime":849.385,"body":"I know nothing at all about it."},{"startTime":849.385,"endTime":852.53,"body":"And Elga MA exists nowhere in industry"},{"startTime":849.385,"endTime":852.53,"body":"other than apparently this, so."},{"startTime":853.03,"endTime":858.495,"body":"and it's, it's tough because the papers,"},{"startTime":853.03,"endTime":858.495,"body":"the documentation is from two thou,"},{"startTime":858.735,"endTime":863.325,"body":"the paper from 2008, and we are looking"},{"startTime":858.735,"endTime":863.325,"body":"at the updated maintained source code."},{"startTime":863.825,"endTime":867.515,"body":"But it's, you know, there's"},{"startTime":863.825,"endTime":867.515,"body":"not a lot of docs in between"},{"startTime":867.515,"endTime":869.515,"body":"here and there that I can see."},{"startTime":870.015,"endTime":876.985,"body":"but yeah, this was a. There are"},{"startTime":870.015,"endTime":876.985,"body":"other ways to do, private balloting,"},{"startTime":876.985,"endTime":882.235,"body":"private computation, private"},{"startTime":876.985,"endTime":882.235,"body":"tallying that do involve a T of"},{"startTime":882.235,"endTime":885.055,"body":"n sort of decryption scenario."},{"startTime":885.295,"endTime":890.29,"body":"And this is using a slightly different"},{"startTime":885.295,"endTime":890.29,"body":"way of doing cryptography, um, that makes"},{"startTime":890.395,"endTime":893.065,"body":"it so that you may configure the system."},{"startTime":893.515,"endTime":898.135,"body":"Uh, a system, not necessarily Helios Halos"},{"startTime":893.515,"endTime":898.135,"body":"doesn't support that yet, um, to have,"},{"startTime":898.135,"endTime":901.315,"body":"say two out of three if you have two out"},{"startTime":901.396,"endTime":901.616,"body":"And"},{"startTime":901.916,"endTime":905.785,"body":"key shares because you know, three"},{"startTime":901.916,"endTime":905.785,"body":"of the cryptographers that you"},{"startTime":905.785,"endTime":909.655,"body":"have trusted to run the election"},{"startTime":905.785,"endTime":909.655,"body":"into crypto results are available"},{"startTime":909.655,"endTime":911.245,"body":"and one of them lost their share."},{"startTime":911.395,"endTime":914.005,"body":"You can still decrypt the, the tally"},{"startTime":914.076,"endTime":914.296,"body":"no"},{"startTime":914.545,"endTime":917.935,"body":"And this uses fun stuff like shair"},{"startTime":914.545,"endTime":917.935,"body":"secret sharing and things like that, And"},{"startTime":917.935,"endTime":920.755,"body":"lovely polynomials, uh, to make it happen."},{"startTime":921.025,"endTime":922.975,"body":"But that is not implemented here."},{"startTime":923.215,"endTime":928.105,"body":"If any one of them lost their"},{"startTime":923.215,"endTime":928.105,"body":"share, uh, or not even shared,"},{"startTime":928.105,"endTime":930.115,"body":"but piece of the key, um."},{"startTime":930.48,"endTime":930.69,"body":"no"},{"startTime":930.69,"endTime":931.56,"body":"one can decrypt."},{"startTime":931.68,"endTime":932.49,"body":"Everything's fucked."},{"startTime":932.99,"endTime":933.21,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":933.27,"endTime":934.415,"body":"Why is this the one sliver"},{"startTime":934.446,"endTime":935.076,"body":"Is that"},{"startTime":935.375,"endTime":935.675,"body":"have?"},{"startTime":936.175,"endTime":936.475,"body":"What?"},{"startTime":936.935,"endTime":938.135,"body":"I was asking Matt why this is the"},{"startTime":938.245,"endTime":938.545,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":938.645,"endTime":939.815,"body":"of cryptography actually has."},{"startTime":940.222,"endTime":941.347,"body":"That I actually know about."},{"startTime":941.407,"endTime":946.527,"body":"Uh, it's because it's, uh, when I was"},{"startTime":941.407,"endTime":946.527,"body":"an undergrad, I had to implement, uh, a"},{"startTime":946.527,"endTime":950.487,"body":"slightly newer variant of it for the star"},{"startTime":946.527,"endTime":950.487,"body":"vote project, which, so, so, you know,"},{"startTime":950.517,"endTime":954.827,"body":"even before Helios came out, there's"},{"startTime":950.517,"endTime":954.827,"body":"been, you know, the stream of internet"},{"startTime":954.827,"endTime":956.517,"body":"voting of, of enabling voters to vote."},{"startTime":957.017,"endTime":960.197,"body":"their phones for all variety"},{"startTime":957.017,"endTime":960.197,"body":"of me of, of reasons."},{"startTime":960.197,"endTime":960.527,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":961.027,"endTime":964.867,"body":"and Helios was a really big and kind"},{"startTime":961.027,"endTime":964.867,"body":"of surprising, I think even to Ben"},{"startTime":964.867,"endTime":967.327,"body":"himself step forward in that realm."},{"startTime":967.417,"endTime":968.737,"body":"Uh, it was like accessible."},{"startTime":968.947,"endTime":971.887,"body":"He actually productionized it in a way"},{"startTime":968.947,"endTime":971.887,"body":"that people like IACR could use it."},{"startTime":972.387,"endTime":974.907,"body":"but it did have some very"},{"startTime":972.387,"endTime":974.907,"body":"obvious and serious drawbacks."},{"startTime":974.907,"endTime":977.757,"body":"And so a bunch of people in the"},{"startTime":974.907,"endTime":977.757,"body":"academic community picked it up and"},{"startTime":977.757,"endTime":979.377,"body":"ran with it pretty much immediately."},{"startTime":979.377,"endTime":984.137,"body":"Like there are, pretty sure, um,"},{"startTime":979.377,"endTime":984.137,"body":"forks of the Helios GitHub that have"},{"startTime":984.137,"endTime":985.667,"body":"Threshold fully implemented, right?"},{"startTime":985.907,"endTime":990.397,"body":"There are like, and there've been,"},{"startTime":985.907,"endTime":990.397,"body":"uh, you know, not dozens, but a"},{"startTime":990.397,"endTime":993.577,"body":"dozen papers written about how"},{"startTime":990.397,"endTime":993.577,"body":"to do certain things with Helios."},{"startTime":993.667,"endTime":995.167,"body":"And they're still being"},{"startTime":993.667,"endTime":995.167,"body":"published today, right?"},{"startTime":995.167,"endTime":999.147,"body":"Like there's, there are new attacks on"},{"startTime":995.167,"endTime":999.147,"body":"Helios all the time, are other, other"},{"startTime":999.147,"endTime":1001.037,"body":"systems that have come out since then."},{"startTime":1001.367,"endTime":1004.697,"body":"Um, star Vote was one, um, that,"},{"startTime":1001.367,"endTime":1004.697,"body":"you know, like Ron Rivest and"},{"startTime":1004.697,"endTime":1006.707,"body":"a bunch of folks worked on, um."},{"startTime":1007.207,"endTime":1010.987,"body":"Election Guard is probably the biggest"},{"startTime":1007.207,"endTime":1010.987,"body":"name right now in, in our industry,"},{"startTime":1011.077,"endTime":1012.337,"body":"uh, in the elections industry."},{"startTime":1012.667,"endTime":1013.867,"body":"Uh, that came outta Microsoft."},{"startTime":1013.867,"endTime":1018.807,"body":"It was Josh Belo, who like way back in the"},{"startTime":1013.867,"endTime":1018.807,"body":"eighties wrote his PhD dissertation on how"},{"startTime":1018.807,"endTime":1023.637,"body":"to do basically what Helios is, and then,"},{"startTime":1018.807,"endTime":1023.637,"body":"you know, with mixed nets at the time."},{"startTime":1023.637,"endTime":1025.72,"body":"And then it's, it's"},{"startTime":1023.637,"endTime":1025.72,"body":"come forward a lot, so."},{"startTime":1026.02,"endTime":1028.72,"body":"That's a thing that I didn't"},{"startTime":1026.02,"endTime":1028.72,"body":"realize was built into Helios."},{"startTime":1028.72,"endTime":1032.44,"body":"I thought Helios was like"},{"startTime":1028.72,"endTime":1032.44,"body":"just homomorphic stuff."},{"startTime":1032.47,"endTime":1033.76,"body":"Like the, the niceness."},{"startTime":1033.76,"endTime":1038.83,"body":"The niceness of the underlying, like"},{"startTime":1033.76,"endTime":1038.83,"body":"I, I, I didn't think it was like some"},{"startTime":1038.83,"endTime":1042.76,"body":"fancy schmancy, like fully homomorphic"},{"startTime":1038.83,"endTime":1042.76,"body":"encryption going on, but I knew that there"},{"startTime":1042.76,"endTime":1045.91,"body":"was, you know, leveraging the homomorphic"},{"startTime":1042.76,"endTime":1045.91,"body":"properties of whatever the math was"},{"startTime":1045.91,"endTime":1047.53,"body":"under the hood to tally the stuff up."},{"startTime":1048.03,"endTime":1052.2,"body":"Um, but it does involve some"},{"startTime":1048.03,"endTime":1052.2,"body":"sort of mixing as well to get,"},{"startTime":1052.2,"endTime":1053.7,"body":"to give you more anonymity."},{"startTime":1053.82,"endTime":1055.56,"body":"Can you tell us a little bit about that?"},{"startTime":1056.042,"endTime":1060.872,"body":"Yeah, that I'm not super clear on,"},{"startTime":1056.042,"endTime":1060.872,"body":"um, the, like, you know, the, the,"},{"startTime":1060.902,"endTime":1064.822,"body":"the kind of off the cuff read of"},{"startTime":1060.902,"endTime":1064.822,"body":"it that I can give Is uh, you know,"},{"startTime":1064.822,"endTime":1068.442,"body":"when you're tallying the mix net,"},{"startTime":1064.822,"endTime":1068.442,"body":"typically, and I think Helios publishes"},{"startTime":1068.442,"endTime":1069.822,"body":"a bulletin board of ballots too, right?"},{"startTime":1069.822,"endTime":1072.852,"body":"So when you, when you vote your, your"},{"startTime":1069.822,"endTime":1072.852,"body":"vote gets encrypted into a, a homomorphic"},{"startTime":1072.852,"endTime":1076.672,"body":"ciphertext that when they run the tally,"},{"startTime":1072.852,"endTime":1076.672,"body":"they, you know, multiply the ciphertext"},{"startTime":1076.692,"endTime":1079.992,"body":"together and then decrypt the final tally,"},{"startTime":1076.692,"endTime":1079.992,"body":"but they also publish the encryptions of"},{"startTime":1079.992,"endTime":1082.392,"body":"all the ballots, um, individually, right?"},{"startTime":1082.422,"endTime":1083.442,"body":"And so you can,"},{"startTime":1083.48,"endTime":1085.67,"body":"cast my vote before we"},{"startTime":1083.48,"endTime":1085.67,"body":"started recording and you"},{"startTime":1085.782,"endTime":1086.082,"body":"mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1086.18,"endTime":1087.53,"body":"see the whole bullet board of all the"},{"startTime":1087.567,"endTime":1087.837,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1087.955,"endTime":1088.035,"body":"there."},{"startTime":1088.437,"endTime":1088.707,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1088.707,"endTime":1092.217,"body":"And so theoretically, you know, after"},{"startTime":1088.707,"endTime":1092.217,"body":"the election is run, the, the, the,"},{"startTime":1092.337,"endTime":1096.927,"body":"uh, administrators can provide a way to"},{"startTime":1092.337,"endTime":1096.927,"body":"decrypt to, to some, and decre, right?"},{"startTime":1096.927,"endTime":1099.147,"body":"You can implement your own verifier"},{"startTime":1096.927,"endTime":1099.147,"body":"is what they call, you know, what,"},{"startTime":1099.147,"endTime":1102.387,"body":"what this typically called, um, and"},{"startTime":1099.147,"endTime":1102.387,"body":"that, I don't think Helios does it,"},{"startTime":1102.387,"endTime":1105.687,"body":"but newer systems have like nix and,"},{"startTime":1102.387,"endTime":1105.687,"body":"and other fancy things that you can"},{"startTime":1105.687,"endTime":1109.167,"body":"do to, you know, you can prove that"},{"startTime":1105.687,"endTime":1109.167,"body":"like this contest was a vote for one."},{"startTime":1109.167,"endTime":1111.807,"body":"And so there's only one valid vote in"},{"startTime":1109.167,"endTime":1111.807,"body":"this ciphertext and all that stuff."},{"startTime":1111.807,"endTime":1114.327,"body":"I don't know that Helios"},{"startTime":1111.807,"endTime":1114.327,"body":"does that or not, but,"},{"startTime":1114.37,"endTime":1116.95,"body":"see anything to indicate that,"},{"startTime":1114.37,"endTime":1116.95,"body":"and especially because if that"},{"startTime":1116.95,"endTime":1120.75,"body":"was, has to be completely in"},{"startTime":1116.95,"endTime":1120.75,"body":"the browser, that sounds doable."},{"startTime":1120.75,"endTime":1123.93,"body":"Like I know that like fancy"},{"startTime":1120.75,"endTime":1123.93,"body":"cryptocurrency wallets will be"},{"startTime":1123.947,"endTime":1124.727,"body":"oh, it's doable."},{"startTime":1124.787,"endTime":1125.447,"body":"Uh, yeah."},{"startTime":1125.447,"endTime":1126.497,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1126.72,"endTime":1129.51,"body":"I have a feeling that's just"},{"startTime":1126.72,"endTime":1129.51,"body":"not gonna be supported in this,"},{"startTime":1129.707,"endTime":1130.217,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1130.307,"endTime":1131.357,"body":"Circa 2008."},{"startTime":1131.447,"endTime":1131.807,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1131.812,"endTime":1132.032,"body":"Uhhuh."},{"startTime":1132.285,"endTime":1134.745,"body":"Or, or, you know, even that"},{"startTime":1132.285,"endTime":1134.745,"body":"sounds like a big chunk."},{"startTime":1134.745,"endTime":1136.665,"body":"That's a big upgrade"},{"startTime":1134.745,"endTime":1136.665,"body":"and a big chunk of work."},{"startTime":1136.665,"endTime":1139.665,"body":"And like, I think it's Ben Adida"},{"startTime":1136.665,"endTime":1139.665,"body":"who is the, the creator of Helios."},{"startTime":1139.665,"endTime":1143.445,"body":"He's still maintaining it just"},{"startTime":1139.665,"endTime":1143.445,"body":"sort of in his copious spare time."},{"startTime":1143.895,"endTime":1148.055,"body":"Um, I don't know if that would be"},{"startTime":1143.895,"endTime":1148.055,"body":"supported, but, uh, yeah, uh, having,"},{"startTime":1148.535,"endTime":1153.215,"body":"having real zero knowledge proofs or"},{"startTime":1148.535,"endTime":1153.215,"body":"at least some sort of, uh, maybe not a"},{"startTime":1153.215,"endTime":1157.535,"body":"zkSNARK some, some sort of proof on top"},{"startTime":1153.215,"endTime":1157.535,"body":"of it, I think would be a very cool,"},{"startTime":1157.565,"endTime":1159.515,"body":"uh, evolution of these sort of systems."},{"startTime":1159.515,"endTime":1160.325,"body":"But Yeah."},{"startTime":1160.325,"endTime":1165.245,"body":"that's, they have some independent,"},{"startTime":1160.325,"endTime":1165.245,"body":"uh, implementations of, to audit"},{"startTime":1165.335,"endTime":1169.835,"body":"all the ciphertext, uh, for,"},{"startTime":1165.335,"endTime":1169.835,"body":"for ballots, um, which is cool."},{"startTime":1169.925,"endTime":1172.265,"body":"I don't, I don't know"},{"startTime":1169.925,"endTime":1172.265,"body":"if anyone uses them, so."},{"startTime":1172.765,"endTime":1175.655,"body":"It's always the, the challenge with that"},{"startTime":1172.765,"endTime":1175.655,"body":"kind of technology, and that's true for,"},{"startTime":1175.655,"endTime":1178.445,"body":"for not just Helios, but Scan or Prete."},{"startTime":1178.445,"endTime":1181.325,"body":"There are a bunch of these like kinds"},{"startTime":1178.445,"endTime":1181.325,"body":"of protocols that have been proposed"},{"startTime":1181.325,"endTime":1184.805,"body":"or, or even mostly implemented"},{"startTime":1181.325,"endTime":1184.805,"body":"and used but have never been."},{"startTime":1185.225,"endTime":1188.755,"body":"Um, you know, turns out that like there"},{"startTime":1185.225,"endTime":1188.755,"body":"aren't enough people who know enough"},{"startTime":1188.755,"endTime":1191.785,"body":"about the stuff, who care enough about"},{"startTime":1188.755,"endTime":1191.785,"body":"the outcomes of the elections and who"},{"startTime":1191.785,"endTime":1193.885,"body":"have the time and ability to do it, that"},{"startTime":1194.065,"endTime":1194.932,"body":"you know, they go and do it."},{"startTime":1195.182,"endTime":1199.107,"body":"I'm like, I'm like 80% sure that"},{"startTime":1195.182,"endTime":1199.107,"body":"Helios itself does verification"},{"startTime":1199.137,"endTime":1202.347,"body":"of whether the ballots are well"},{"startTime":1199.137,"endTime":1202.347,"body":"formed, but I'm not seeing it in"},{"startTime":1202.347,"endTime":1205.667,"body":"the original vanilla Helios paper."},{"startTime":1206.167,"endTime":1206.737,"body":"well formed?"},{"startTime":1206.917,"endTime":1207.137,"body":"Huh?"},{"startTime":1207.608,"endTime":1210.503,"body":"This may be me, like munging"},{"startTime":1207.608,"endTime":1210.503,"body":"several papers together"},{"startTime":1210.661,"endTime":1211.761,"body":"Yeah, but"},{"startTime":1211.833,"endTime":1212.413,"body":"in my head."},{"startTime":1212.481,"endTime":1215.081,"body":"that actually understands all this"},{"startTime":1212.481,"endTime":1215.081,"body":"stuff, so just gonna take your"},{"startTime":1215.267,"endTime":1220.687,"body":"I was distracted distracted voting"},{"startTime":1215.267,"endTime":1220.687,"body":"I feel like this this uh failed"},{"startTime":1220.687,"endTime":1223.597,"body":"election is really just gonna"},{"startTime":1220.687,"endTime":1223.597,"body":"act as a way to get out the vote"},{"startTime":1224.097,"endTime":1226.047,"body":"Did you vote for the, did"},{"startTime":1224.097,"endTime":1226.047,"body":"you vote for the referendum?"},{"startTime":1226.547,"endTime":1228.052,"body":"Um I did vote for the referendum"},{"startTime":1228.151,"endTime":1228.871,"body":"Yay."},{"startTime":1229.121,"endTime":1231.473,"body":"this is one of the other, one of"},{"startTime":1229.121,"endTime":1231.473,"body":"the other major problems with,"},{"startTime":1231.473,"endTime":1232.673,"body":"with a lot of these is privacy."},{"startTime":1232.673,"endTime":1232.973,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1232.973,"endTime":1236.033,"body":"And, and Helios has a, a"},{"startTime":1232.973,"endTime":1236.033,"body":"coerced me function that, that"},{"startTime":1236.033,"endTime":1237.533,"body":"you can expose how you voted."},{"startTime":1238.033,"endTime":1240.313,"body":"I don't think your ballot gets"},{"startTime":1238.033,"endTime":1240.313,"body":"counted when you click that, but"},{"startTime":1240.55,"endTime":1240.85,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":1241.063,"endTime":1241.208,"body":"it does."},{"startTime":1241.708,"endTime":1242.728,"body":"I think they spoil it."},{"startTime":1242.788,"endTime":1242.938,"body":"I"},{"startTime":1243.115,"endTime":1243.535,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1243.898,"endTime":1246.988,"body":"spoil it, or at least that's"},{"startTime":1243.898,"endTime":1246.988,"body":"what the UI says to the human."},{"startTime":1247.408,"endTime":1252.888,"body":"Um, they include information to prove"},{"startTime":1247.408,"endTime":1252.888,"body":"how well the ciphertext was formed."},{"startTime":1253.388,"endTime":1257.708,"body":"But I don't think there's anything else"},{"startTime":1253.388,"endTime":1257.708,"body":"about, you know, making sure that things"},{"startTime":1257.708,"endTime":1261.628,"body":"are well formed when you're not spoiling"},{"startTime":1257.708,"endTime":1261.628,"body":"your ballot, um, to prove, like, to"},{"startTime":1261.628,"endTime":1264.868,"body":"prove that you are able to create the"},{"startTime":1261.628,"endTime":1264.868,"body":"ciphertext with your public key and the"},{"startTime":1264.868,"endTime":1266.368,"body":"randomness that you used to create it."},{"startTime":1266.758,"endTime":1270.258,"body":"Um, that's one kind of, well, formness."},{"startTime":1270.553,"endTime":1272.083,"body":"Can I just check my intuition on this?"},{"startTime":1272.083,"endTime":1278.703,"body":"So the idea here is if you're relying"},{"startTime":1272.083,"endTime":1278.703,"body":"on the additive homomorphic property"},{"startTime":1278.703,"endTime":1281.368,"body":"of El Gamal, then you can tally"},{"startTime":1278.703,"endTime":1281.368,"body":"the votes without decrypting them."},{"startTime":1281.868,"endTime":1286.068,"body":"So the well-formed-ness thing"},{"startTime":1281.868,"endTime":1286.068,"body":"is really important because when"},{"startTime":1286.068,"endTime":1288.618,"body":"you're tallying the votes, you're"},{"startTime":1286.068,"endTime":1288.618,"body":"not actually decrypting them."},{"startTime":1289.008,"endTime":1290.598,"body":"You're just trusting"},{"startTime":1289.008,"endTime":1290.598,"body":"that whatever's in there."},{"startTime":1290.598,"endTime":1294.408,"body":"So if it's like a pick two of three, then"},{"startTime":1290.598,"endTime":1294.408,"body":"you really care about whether somebody"},{"startTime":1294.438,"endTime":1296.208,"body":"like did three of three instead of two of"},{"startTime":1296.26,"endTime":1296.68,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1296.838,"endTime":1297.258,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1297.558,"endTime":1302.028,"body":"Um, and so some kind of system would have"},{"startTime":1297.558,"endTime":1302.028,"body":"to get built to let you check, you know,"},{"startTime":1302.028,"endTime":1305.448,"body":"let you verify the integrity of the votes"},{"startTime":1302.028,"endTime":1305.448,"body":"themselves to make the system secure."},{"startTime":1305.796,"endTime":1305.916,"body":"Is"},{"startTime":1305.998,"endTime":1308.461,"body":"Yeah, because you could do, you could"},{"startTime":1305.998,"endTime":1308.461,"body":"do all kinds of things like have, you"},{"startTime":1308.461,"endTime":1311.471,"body":"know, minus five votes for a candidate"},{"startTime":1308.461,"endTime":1311.471,"body":"or something in a, in a ciphertext"},{"startTime":1311.491,"endTime":1313.351,"body":"that cancel out votes or, you know."},{"startTime":1313.851,"endTime":1317.656,"body":"It seems like a hard problem"},{"startTime":1313.851,"endTime":1317.656,"body":"to, well, I don't know."},{"startTime":1317.656,"endTime":1320.956,"body":"about the specifics of Finite"},{"startTime":1317.656,"endTime":1320.956,"body":"Field El Gamal, but it does seem"},{"startTime":1320.956,"endTime":1325.716,"body":"like a difficult problem to verify"},{"startTime":1320.956,"endTime":1325.716,"body":"anything about a ciphertext."},{"startTime":1326.146,"endTime":1330.076,"body":"Until you actually have like all this,"},{"startTime":1326.146,"endTime":1330.076,"body":"all you have like the plain text and"},{"startTime":1330.076,"endTime":1333.466,"body":"the inputs, uh, and the randomness"},{"startTime":1330.076,"endTime":1333.466,"body":"and like a public key or something"},{"startTime":1333.466,"endTime":1334.786,"body":"like that, and the ciphertext."},{"startTime":1335.056,"endTime":1338.446,"body":"Otherwise, you just have a ciphertext"},{"startTime":1335.056,"endTime":1338.446,"body":"and as long as it's like in a range,"},{"startTime":1338.686,"endTime":1342.406,"body":"like you can't really say much about"},{"startTime":1338.686,"endTime":1342.406,"body":"it until you can actually decrypt it."},{"startTime":1342.406,"endTime":1342.826,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1343.376,"endTime":1346.106,"body":"Yeah, there's, there's typically"},{"startTime":1343.376,"endTime":1346.106,"body":"several, like in the systems"},{"startTime":1346.106,"endTime":1348.596,"body":"that do publish proofs, there's"},{"startTime":1346.106,"endTime":1348.596,"body":"like several component, like the"},{"startTime":1348.596,"endTime":1350.046,"body":"cipher, we call it the ciphertext."},{"startTime":1350.066,"endTime":1352.556,"body":"But really it's like four different"},{"startTime":1350.066,"endTime":1352.556,"body":"things that get published and it's,"},{"startTime":1353.036,"endTime":1356.296,"body":"uh, there's like a commitment and,"},{"startTime":1353.036,"endTime":1356.296,"body":"and some other stuff that a little"},{"startTime":1356.296,"endTime":1357.496,"body":"vague on at the moment, but I."},{"startTime":1357.719,"endTime":1361.129,"body":"That sounds, that sounds better"},{"startTime":1357.719,"endTime":1361.129,"body":"because there are other systems that"},{"startTime":1361.129,"endTime":1362.659,"body":"use these homomorphic properties."},{"startTime":1363.159,"endTime":1367.779,"body":"Like Z cash, uh, where you're doing"},{"startTime":1363.159,"endTime":1367.779,"body":"all these balance computations of"},{"startTime":1367.779,"endTime":1372.609,"body":"like, I am trying to spend a note and"},{"startTime":1367.779,"endTime":1372.609,"body":"I'm going to send it to this thing."},{"startTime":1372.609,"endTime":1375.309,"body":"And, you know, uh, here's all the"},{"startTime":1372.609,"endTime":1375.309,"body":"balances that are, you know, fully"},{"startTime":1375.309,"endTime":1379.899,"body":"encrypted on chain, but you're doing"},{"startTime":1375.309,"endTime":1379.899,"body":"all this other stuff at the same time."},{"startTime":1379.899,"endTime":1384.369,"body":"You're doing a full Z case snark about"},{"startTime":1379.899,"endTime":1384.369,"body":"all with witnesses of all the inputs and"},{"startTime":1384.369,"endTime":1388.809,"body":"you have knowledge of your spending key"},{"startTime":1384.369,"endTime":1388.809,"body":"authority and like all this sort of stuff"},{"startTime":1389.309,"endTime":1390.929,"body":"with all of these little commitments."},{"startTime":1390.929,"endTime":1394.849,"body":"And those commitments are with"},{"startTime":1390.929,"endTime":1394.849,"body":"elliptic curves, um, that let you get"},{"startTime":1394.849,"endTime":1397.099,"body":"a lot of that stuff, quote for free."},{"startTime":1397.599,"endTime":1400.749,"body":"Yeah, and that's actually sort of"},{"startTime":1397.599,"endTime":1400.749,"body":"the central problem in voting in"},{"startTime":1400.749,"endTime":1402.659,"body":"particular is like you both have."},{"startTime":1403.159,"endTime":1406.639,"body":"Kind of an extreme need for privacy"},{"startTime":1403.159,"endTime":1406.639,"body":"and a really also an extreme need"},{"startTime":1406.639,"endTime":1407.899,"body":"for public transparency, right?"},{"startTime":1407.899,"endTime":1411.879,"body":"A way to, like, you can't have, can't"},{"startTime":1407.899,"endTime":1411.879,"body":"allow any voter to prove how they voted,"},{"startTime":1412.379,"endTime":1416.279,"body":"in most constructions because it, it"},{"startTime":1412.379,"endTime":1416.279,"body":"leads to things like vote buying or,"},{"startTime":1416.279,"endTime":1418.529,"body":"you know, vote my way, or I'm gonna"},{"startTime":1416.279,"endTime":1418.529,"body":"break your kneecaps, or whatever."},{"startTime":1419.009,"endTime":1422.309,"body":"Uh, but if you don't have that,"},{"startTime":1419.009,"endTime":1422.309,"body":"it's really hard to prove later"},{"startTime":1422.369,"endTime":1424.529,"body":"that everything was well-formed if"},{"startTime":1422.369,"endTime":1424.529,"body":"you're, if you're doing, especially"},{"startTime":1424.529,"endTime":1427.859,"body":"if you're doing like homo sic,"},{"startTime":1424.529,"endTime":1427.859,"body":"you know, uh, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":1427.859,"endTime":1431.239,"body":"The, and that's also where like the, the"},{"startTime":1427.859,"endTime":1431.239,"body":"coerced me thing that I talked about,"},{"startTime":1431.239,"endTime":1434.599,"body":"there's this notion of like, voters can"},{"startTime":1431.239,"endTime":1434.599,"body":"kind of prove to themselves, because like,"},{"startTime":1434.839,"endTime":1438.079,"body":"as a voter, why would you believe that the"},{"startTime":1434.839,"endTime":1438.079,"body":"system is accurately recording your vote?"},{"startTime":1438.109,"endTime":1438.499,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1438.889,"endTime":1441.169,"body":"I, I vote for candidate A, how"},{"startTime":1438.889,"endTime":1441.169,"body":"do I know that it did that?"},{"startTime":1441.559,"endTime":1444.379,"body":"Um, and so the idea is that you"},{"startTime":1441.559,"endTime":1444.379,"body":"can kind of iteratively spoil your"},{"startTime":1444.379,"endTime":1446.359,"body":"ballot and make the system decrypted."},{"startTime":1446.359,"endTime":1448.339,"body":"And usually it's decrypted"},{"startTime":1446.359,"endTime":1448.339,"body":"with proofs of correctness that"},{"startTime":1448.339,"endTime":1449.239,"body":"like it did the right thing."},{"startTime":1449.239,"endTime":1452.569,"body":"Or you can rework the math"},{"startTime":1449.239,"endTime":1452.569,"body":"yourself, I guess, um, to show."},{"startTime":1452.569,"endTime":1454.849,"body":"And so hopefully over time you"},{"startTime":1452.569,"endTime":1454.849,"body":"build like statistical confidence"},{"startTime":1454.849,"endTime":1455.779,"body":"that if it was gonna cheat."},{"startTime":1456.124,"endTime":1457.564,"body":"You know, some amount of the time."},{"startTime":1457.954,"endTime":1462.094,"body":"Um, I would've caught it by now where I'm"},{"startTime":1457.954,"endTime":1462.094,"body":"like 90% confident or 99% or whatever that"},{"startTime":1462.094,"endTime":1463.444,"body":"it's, it's recording my vote correctly"},{"startTime":1463.486,"endTime":1463.951,"body":"And that"},{"startTime":1464.044,"endTime":1464.284,"body":"or"},{"startTime":1464.401,"endTime":1467.971,"body":"that gives you like a system wide trust."},{"startTime":1468.211,"endTime":1469.111,"body":"Like any,"},{"startTime":1469.114,"endTime":1471.061,"body":"if, if people are doing it right."},{"startTime":1471.361,"endTime":1471.721,"body":"There's,"},{"startTime":1471.724,"endTime":1472.024,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1472.051,"endTime":1476.371,"body":"possibility that any one ballot"},{"startTime":1472.051,"endTime":1476.371,"body":"could still be, you know,"},{"startTime":1476.371,"endTime":1477.631,"body":"messed with by the system."},{"startTime":1477.739,"endTime":1478.159,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1478.381,"endTime":1481.531,"body":"that is a, that is a"},{"startTime":1478.381,"endTime":1481.531,"body":"one-off ballot in a vote."},{"startTime":1481.561,"endTime":1484.921,"body":"That's hopefully, you know, many,"},{"startTime":1481.561,"endTime":1484.921,"body":"many, many, many more than that."},{"startTime":1484.921,"endTime":1487.381,"body":"I will not throw off, uh, the results."},{"startTime":1487.831,"endTime":1492.001,"body":"Um, yeah, and this is, this kind of"},{"startTime":1487.831,"endTime":1492.001,"body":"gets into the, like, the difficulty"},{"startTime":1492.061,"endTime":1498.291,"body":"of voting in any, with any technology"},{"startTime":1492.061,"endTime":1498.291,"body":"that's not just, is my paper ballot."},{"startTime":1498.791,"endTime":1499.541,"body":"it is."},{"startTime":1499.721,"endTime":1503.231,"body":"Go figure out how the,"},{"startTime":1499.721,"endTime":1503.231,"body":"like, I created it myself."},{"startTime":1503.261,"endTime":1508.271,"body":"Maybe I used my pen, maybe I used"},{"startTime":1503.261,"endTime":1508.271,"body":"some, you know, assistive device to"},{"startTime":1508.301,"endTime":1513.221,"body":"produce my marked paper ballot and I"},{"startTime":1508.301,"endTime":1513.221,"body":"hand it in to somebody either via by"},{"startTime":1513.221,"endTime":1517.511,"body":"mail or literally handing it to a human"},{"startTime":1513.221,"endTime":1517.511,"body":"being at the, you know, at my local"},{"startTime":1517.604,"endTime":1520.094,"body":"Or putting it into the, the thing"},{"startTime":1517.604,"endTime":1520.094,"body":"that counts it yourself, right?"},{"startTime":1520.094,"endTime":1520.454,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1520.629,"endTime":1521.049,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1521.171,"endTime":1524.831,"body":"know, in theory, if the computer"},{"startTime":1521.171,"endTime":1524.831,"body":"who is counting my ballot and"},{"startTime":1524.831,"endTime":1526.451,"body":"scanning my ballot is just like."},{"startTime":1526.951,"endTime":1529.591,"body":"Totally fucked up and like full"},{"startTime":1526.951,"endTime":1529.591,"body":"of malware or something like that."},{"startTime":1529.591,"endTime":1532.861,"body":"You still just have a big pile of"},{"startTime":1529.591,"endTime":1532.861,"body":"paper ballots that I, you know, I"},{"startTime":1532.861,"endTime":1538.291,"body":"saw with my human eyes or, you know,"},{"startTime":1532.861,"endTime":1538.291,"body":"my, my human senses that I produced"},{"startTime":1538.291,"endTime":1539.911,"body":"a ballot and then I gave it to you."},{"startTime":1540.241,"endTime":1546.166,"body":"Um, try and then all of these other"},{"startTime":1540.241,"endTime":1546.166,"body":"dynamics about transparency, but privacy,"},{"startTime":1546.666,"endTime":1549.501,"body":"but also like, I can't like, prove."},{"startTime":1549.891,"endTime":1553.191,"body":"You know, I voted a certain way, but"},{"startTime":1549.891,"endTime":1553.191,"body":"I know I voted a certain way because"},{"startTime":1553.191,"endTime":1555.321,"body":"I voted and I handed you my vote."},{"startTime":1555.531,"endTime":1561.021,"body":"Like all of these dynamics are part"},{"startTime":1555.531,"endTime":1561.021,"body":"of why, uh, voting online or voting"},{"startTime":1561.201,"endTime":1566.261,"body":"digitally or, you know, remotely or"},{"startTime":1561.201,"endTime":1566.261,"body":"even with encryption is like a harder"},{"startTime":1566.261,"endTime":1569.291,"body":"problem than basically anything"},{"startTime":1566.261,"endTime":1569.291,"body":"else that we do online, including"},{"startTime":1569.291,"endTime":1574.241,"body":"banking, including cryptocurrency,"},{"startTime":1569.291,"endTime":1574.241,"body":"weird private cryptocurrency."},{"startTime":1574.571,"endTime":1577.121,"body":"Like, are we getting any closer?"},{"startTime":1577.121,"endTime":1580.811,"body":"Like, you know, we can skip Helios,"},{"startTime":1577.121,"endTime":1580.811,"body":"but like, are we getting any closer to"},{"startTime":1580.811,"endTime":1583.511,"body":"something that we feel pretty good about?"},{"startTime":1584.011,"endTime":1588.571,"body":"gives us anything close to the kind"},{"startTime":1584.011,"endTime":1588.571,"body":"of like the feel good nature of"},{"startTime":1588.661,"endTime":1592.651,"body":"here's my paper ballot that I produced"},{"startTime":1588.661,"endTime":1592.651,"body":"somehow and handed to a human."},{"startTime":1593.151,"endTime":1597.231,"body":"I think in the US maybe, um,"},{"startTime":1593.151,"endTime":1597.231,"body":"in many countries not as much."},{"startTime":1597.261,"endTime":1601.781,"body":"So, so it's US elections are ridiculously"},{"startTime":1597.261,"endTime":1601.781,"body":"complicated compared to most of the world."},{"startTime":1601.901,"endTime":1605.231,"body":"Um, like we have hundreds of items on"},{"startTime":1601.901,"endTime":1605.231,"body":"ballots, whereas if you vote in Germany,"},{"startTime":1605.231,"endTime":1609.041,"body":"for example, maybe there's two or three"},{"startTime":1605.231,"endTime":1609.041,"body":"contests on your ballot at a time."},{"startTime":1609.541,"endTime":1612.631,"body":"Um, which is why when people say we should"},{"startTime":1609.541,"endTime":1612.631,"body":"hand counter that kind of thing, it, it"},{"startTime":1612.631,"endTime":1614.071,"body":"also doesn't really make a ton of sense."},{"startTime":1614.371,"endTime":1617.271,"body":"Germany, you know, I picked"},{"startTime":1614.371,"endTime":1617.271,"body":"them for a specific reason."},{"startTime":1617.271,"endTime":1620.331,"body":"They, they're, I believe it's the"},{"startTime":1617.271,"endTime":1620.331,"body":"constitution has, has explicitly"},{"startTime":1620.331,"endTime":1624.921,"body":"says like, no, no, uh, election can"},{"startTime":1620.331,"endTime":1624.921,"body":"be held with technology that the"},{"startTime":1624.921,"endTime":1626.811,"body":"average German couldn't understand."},{"startTime":1627.141,"endTime":1629.961,"body":"And so that's where they, so"},{"startTime":1627.141,"endTime":1629.961,"body":"like, yeah, so like homomorphic"},{"startTime":1629.961,"endTime":1631.431,"body":"encryption gone, right?"},{"startTime":1631.911,"endTime":1635.601,"body":"Um, in the US, because we vote for so many"},{"startTime":1631.911,"endTime":1635.601,"body":"things, we vote for dog catcher, right?"},{"startTime":1635.601,"endTime":1637.101,"body":"In some jurisdictions, um."},{"startTime":1637.601,"endTime":1639.851,"body":"We have to use technology to"},{"startTime":1637.601,"endTime":1639.851,"body":"administer elections, right."},{"startTime":1639.851,"endTime":1641.021,"body":"It's not, it's not really optional."},{"startTime":1641.021,"endTime":1642.521,"body":"We, we, we vote for lots of things."},{"startTime":1642.521,"endTime":1644.351,"body":"We have lots of, um, different languages."},{"startTime":1644.351,"endTime":1645.701,"body":"We're a very diverse population."},{"startTime":1646.151,"endTime":1650.771,"body":"Um, we have, uh, the Americans with"},{"startTime":1646.151,"endTime":1650.771,"body":"Disabilities Act that that guarantees,"},{"startTime":1650.771,"endTime":1653.921,"body":"you know, your right to and, and the Help"},{"startTime":1650.771,"endTime":1653.921,"body":"America Vote Act, which tie together to,"},{"startTime":1653.921,"endTime":1658.361,"body":"if you're of a blind voter, for example,"},{"startTime":1653.921,"endTime":1658.361,"body":"you have to be offered the same voting"},{"startTime":1658.361,"endTime":1660.161,"body":"experience that everybody else gets."},{"startTime":1660.661,"endTime":1663.331,"body":"it turns out, that doesn't work very"},{"startTime":1660.661,"endTime":1663.331,"body":"well in practice, but, um, but because"},{"startTime":1663.331,"endTime":1666.301,"body":"of all that stuff, we have to use"},{"startTime":1663.331,"endTime":1666.301,"body":"computers in some facility, right?"},{"startTime":1666.801,"endTime":1671.931,"body":"And so we have a lot of robust methods"},{"startTime":1666.801,"endTime":1671.931,"body":"to use computers and check them that"},{"startTime":1671.931,"endTime":1673.701,"body":"all rely on right now on paper ballots."},{"startTime":1673.701,"endTime":1673.986,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1673.986,"endTime":1675.141,"body":"Uh, as you mentioned."},{"startTime":1675.141,"endTime":1679.751,"body":"And so internet voting is still, I"},{"startTime":1675.141,"endTime":1679.751,"body":"think, a pretty far, a long way off."},{"startTime":1679.781,"endTime":1682.271,"body":"We're a lot closer to it"},{"startTime":1679.781,"endTime":1682.271,"body":"than we were in 2008 right."},{"startTime":1682.271,"endTime":1683.081,"body":"When Helios came out."},{"startTime":1683.141,"endTime":1687.821,"body":"Um, but there's still so many, even,"},{"startTime":1683.141,"endTime":1687.821,"body":"even just the, you know, the, the"},{"startTime":1687.821,"endTime":1690.931,"body":"specific cryptographic challenges are,"},{"startTime":1691.171,"endTime":1691.551,"body":"are— p"},{"startTime":1691.951,"endTime":1694.171,"body":"ale in comparison to all the other"},{"startTime":1691.951,"endTime":1694.171,"body":"problems that we have, right?"},{"startTime":1694.171,"endTime":1698.311,"body":"To, like, not every voter has"},{"startTime":1694.171,"endTime":1698.311,"body":"a smartphone to, um, you know,"},{"startTime":1698.341,"endTime":1699.601,"body":"the, the coercion problem, right?"},{"startTime":1699.601,"endTime":1702.661,"body":"Like, if I can, and this is actually"},{"startTime":1699.601,"endTime":1702.661,"body":"true for absentee voting at home"},{"startTime":1702.661,"endTime":1703.951,"body":"as well to some extent, right?"},{"startTime":1704.251,"endTime":1707.851,"body":"Um, where if, if you're filling out"},{"startTime":1704.251,"endTime":1707.851,"body":"your ballot, not in a booth that is"},{"startTime":1708.001,"endTime":1712.051,"body":"under watch of, you know, poll workers"},{"startTime":1708.001,"endTime":1712.051,"body":"or whatever, you could be coerced."},{"startTime":1712.171,"endTime":1714.721,"body":"Um, and even if you are right,"},{"startTime":1712.171,"endTime":1714.721,"body":"we have smartphones now."},{"startTime":1714.721,"endTime":1716.971,"body":"So you can take a picture of your"},{"startTime":1714.721,"endTime":1716.971,"body":"ballot as it goes into the scanner"},{"startTime":1716.971,"endTime":1719.251,"body":"or something, which may or may not"},{"startTime":1716.971,"endTime":1719.251,"body":"be legal depending on where you live."},{"startTime":1719.251,"endTime":1719.821,"body":"It's complicated."},{"startTime":1720.321,"endTime":1722.421,"body":"but, you know, there's that stuff."},{"startTime":1722.421,"endTime":1724.101,"body":"There's, okay, so I'm voting on my phone."},{"startTime":1724.101,"endTime":1726.861,"body":"I also have client side malware on"},{"startTime":1724.101,"endTime":1726.861,"body":"my phone that's watching me vote."},{"startTime":1727.011,"endTime":1729.531,"body":"Um, there's, you're creating"},{"startTime":1727.011,"endTime":1729.531,"body":"a single point of failure."},{"startTime":1729.531,"endTime":1732.591,"body":"So there's like one server or many"},{"startTime":1729.531,"endTime":1732.591,"body":"servers that are taking in votes."},{"startTime":1732.591,"endTime":1733.821,"body":"What if they go down on election day?"},{"startTime":1733.821,"endTime":1736.731,"body":"What if CloudFlare or Amazon"},{"startTime":1733.821,"endTime":1736.731,"body":"or Microsoft have an outage?"},{"startTime":1737.046,"endTime":1739.776,"body":"You know, let's say, just to pick"},{"startTime":1737.046,"endTime":1739.776,"body":"an example, totally at random,"},{"startTime":1739.776,"endTime":1740.706,"body":"that's never happened before."},{"startTime":1741.096,"endTime":1744.876,"body":"Um, so there, there's all of these kind"},{"startTime":1741.096,"endTime":1744.876,"body":"of problems that stack up on each other"},{"startTime":1745.086,"endTime":1749.376,"body":"that it's not, it is not even just the,"},{"startTime":1745.086,"endTime":1749.376,"body":"the, the, you know, public evidence,"},{"startTime":1749.376,"endTime":1753.206,"body":"secret ballot problem, specifically,"},{"startTime":1749.376,"endTime":1753.206,"body":"there's so many other challenges"},{"startTime":1753.206,"endTime":1757.796,"body":"that where maybe starting to kind of"},{"startTime":1753.206,"endTime":1757.796,"body":"solve in some ways, but not really"},{"startTime":1757.796,"endTime":1759.296,"body":"robustly enough for everyone to vote."},{"startTime":1759.296,"endTime":1759.536,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1759.536,"endTime":1762.386,"body":"Like if it becomes the single, if"},{"startTime":1759.536,"endTime":1762.386,"body":"a few people are doing it, it's"},{"startTime":1762.386,"endTime":1765.686,"body":"probably okay because the margins"},{"startTime":1762.386,"endTime":1765.686,"body":"are gonna be wide enough or whatever."},{"startTime":1766.016,"endTime":1768.809,"body":"Uh, but they're, yeah, there"},{"startTime":1766.016,"endTime":1768.809,"body":"are su substantial challenges."},{"startTime":1769.109,"endTime":1769.309,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1769.529,"endTime":1772.369,"body":"And like was legislation"},{"startTime":1769.529,"endTime":1772.369,"body":"on a lot of, you know."},{"startTime":1772.869,"endTime":1777.329,"body":"Different jurisdictions books"},{"startTime":1772.869,"endTime":1777.329,"body":"of like, is one voting day, like"},{"startTime":1777.496,"endTime":1777.706,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1778.006,"endTime":1779.009,"body":"vote on a day."},{"startTime":1779.009,"endTime":1782.729,"body":"And you know, maybe they have, you know,"},{"startTime":1779.009,"endTime":1782.729,"body":"absentee ballots or something like that."},{"startTime":1782.729,"endTime":1785.819,"body":"But like everything else is"},{"startTime":1782.729,"endTime":1785.819,"body":"like, you have a single day."},{"startTime":1786.239,"endTime":1787.589,"body":"It must not fail."},{"startTime":1788.056,"endTime":1788.476,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1788.579,"endTime":1790.319,"body":"you know, what do you do if"},{"startTime":1790.396,"endTime":1790.936,"body":"Which."},{"startTime":1791.039,"endTime":1796.009,"body":"you know, doss some critical service"},{"startTime":1791.039,"endTime":1796.009,"body":"and you know, et cetera, et cetera."},{"startTime":1796.039,"endTime":1796.399,"body":"It's a,"},{"startTime":1796.446,"endTime":1797.136,"body":"Which happens, right?"},{"startTime":1797.136,"endTime":1799.146,"body":"I mean, that's what causes"},{"startTime":1797.136,"endTime":1799.146,"body":"lines at polling places, right?"},{"startTime":1799.146,"endTime":1801.726,"body":"It's not just, you know,"},{"startTime":1799.146,"endTime":1801.726,"body":"there, there's all manner of,"},{"startTime":1801.756,"endTime":1803.076,"body":"of crazy things that happen."},{"startTime":1803.346,"endTime":1807.006,"body":"But the fun fact is many jurisdictions"},{"startTime":1803.346,"endTime":1807.006,"body":"in the US and not just here,"},{"startTime":1807.006,"endTime":1808.446,"body":"Canada also has this as well."},{"startTime":1808.446,"endTime":1811.086,"body":"And, and a couple of other"},{"startTime":1808.446,"endTime":1811.086,"body":"countries, Estonia's also at the"},{"startTime":1811.086,"endTime":1814.086,"body":"top of the list, uh, also require"},{"startTime":1811.086,"endTime":1814.086,"body":"internet voting for certain voters."},{"startTime":1814.536,"endTime":1819.036,"body":"Um, if you are on a battleship"},{"startTime":1814.536,"endTime":1819.036,"body":"overseas, right, um, or you're in a,"},{"startTime":1819.096,"endTime":1821.646,"body":"in active war zone, or, or just in"},{"startTime":1819.096,"endTime":1821.646,"body":"a country that doesn't have robust"},{"startTime":1821.646,"endTime":1823.056,"body":"mail, we can't mail you a ballot."},{"startTime":1823.056,"endTime":1824.226,"body":"It's not gonna get there in time."},{"startTime":1824.676,"endTime":1826.866,"body":"And even if it does, it's not"},{"startTime":1824.676,"endTime":1826.866,"body":"gonna get back to us in time."},{"startTime":1827.366,"endTime":1831.146,"body":"so, you know, internet, internet voting,"},{"startTime":1827.366,"endTime":1831.146,"body":"air scare quotes right, has been a"},{"startTime":1831.146,"endTime":1834.146,"body":"thing in the US for 20 or 30 years."},{"startTime":1834.536,"endTime":1838.586,"body":"Um, but what it has meant historically"},{"startTime":1834.536,"endTime":1838.586,"body":"is I'm gonna fax my ballot or maybe"},{"startTime":1838.586,"endTime":1840.746,"body":"email a PDF of my ballot, right?"},{"startTime":1841.136,"endTime":1841.946,"body":"And so."},{"startTime":1842.276,"endTime":1844.856,"body":"We are getting closer to"},{"startTime":1842.276,"endTime":1844.856,"body":"making that situation better."},{"startTime":1844.856,"endTime":1845.096,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1845.096,"endTime":1848.276,"body":"Because like I, you know, we can talk"},{"startTime":1845.096,"endTime":1848.276,"body":"about, you know, homomorphic encryption"},{"startTime":1848.276,"endTime":1852.175,"body":"all day, but if you're faxing your ballot"},{"startTime":1848.276,"endTime":1852.175,"body":"at the end of the day, like, um, so we"},{"startTime":1852.175,"endTime":1856.225,"body":"are getting that, that is already getting"},{"startTime":1852.175,"endTime":1856.225,"body":"better just because it has to, right?"},{"startTime":1856.225,"endTime":1858.29,"body":"Like it's, it's too big to fail"},{"startTime":1856.225,"endTime":1858.29,"body":"or whatever you want to call it."},{"startTime":1858.55,"endTime":1858.77,"body":"Um."},{"startTime":1858.908,"endTime":1863.558,"body":"I, honest to God, don't hate the"},{"startTime":1858.908,"endTime":1863.558,"body":"idea of like filling out a PDF of my"},{"startTime":1863.558,"endTime":1866.078,"body":"ballot and like sending it somewhere."},{"startTime":1866.138,"endTime":1870.428,"body":"Like, I don't like security"},{"startTime":1866.138,"endTime":1870.428,"body":"wise, reliability wise, even"},{"startTime":1870.428,"endTime":1872.378,"body":"privacy wise to a degree."},{"startTime":1872.828,"endTime":1875.558,"body":"I don't mind that, that much"},{"startTime":1872.828,"endTime":1875.558,"body":"like All this other stuff."},{"startTime":1875.558,"endTime":1877.928,"body":"I'm just like, ah, that's"},{"startTime":1875.558,"endTime":1877.928,"body":"gonna, we're gonna fuck that up."},{"startTime":1878.198,"endTime":1879.488,"body":"Something's gonna go wrong."},{"startTime":1879.488,"endTime":1881.858,"body":"But like, literally"},{"startTime":1879.488,"endTime":1881.858,"body":"like, here's my ballot."},{"startTime":1882.293,"endTime":1884.828,"body":"I, I emailed it or I digitally faxed it."},{"startTime":1884.888,"endTime":1888.428,"body":"Like there has to be some sort of,"},{"startTime":1884.888,"endTime":1888.428,"body":"you know, digital service that gets"},{"startTime":1888.428,"endTime":1893.018,"body":"between the, you know, turns my PDF"},{"startTime":1888.428,"endTime":1893.018,"body":"into like, you know, a dial tone on"},{"startTime":1893.018,"endTime":1894.728,"body":"the back end to, to fax it to a number."},{"startTime":1895.058,"endTime":1896.138,"body":"I don't hate that."},{"startTime":1896.978,"endTime":1901.703,"body":"And games until you don't sanitize"},{"startTime":1896.978,"endTime":1901.703,"body":"your PDF file names and then suddenly"},{"startTime":1901.851,"endTime":1904.071,"body":"that'll be the next thing"},{"startTime":1901.851,"endTime":1904.071,"body":"is like, we found this"},{"startTime":1904.178,"endTime":1904.898,"body":"Next"},{"startTime":1905.271,"endTime":1906.051,"body":"parser"},{"startTime":1906.281,"endTime":1906.971,"body":"next"},{"startTime":1907.471,"endTime":1911.276,"body":"in this, in the critical like"},{"startTime":1907.471,"endTime":1911.276,"body":"absentee voting system of"},{"startTime":1911.276,"endTime":1912.566,"body":"such and such an election."},{"startTime":1912.644,"endTime":1913.664,"body":"well, and we have, right?"},{"startTime":1913.664,"endTime":1917.864,"body":"I mean, um, it's not just the fax"},{"startTime":1913.664,"endTime":1917.864,"body":"and email, but also there have been"},{"startTime":1917.864,"endTime":1924.314,"body":"several vendors who have tried to do"},{"startTime":1917.864,"endTime":1924.314,"body":"some flavor of, of vote by app, right?"},{"startTime":1924.344,"endTime":1929.314,"body":"Votes is the most, uh, poignant one"},{"startTime":1924.344,"endTime":1929.314,"body":"to me, uh, because they, they were"},{"startTime":1929.314,"endTime":1930.604,"body":"a blockchain voting app, right?"},{"startTime":1930.604,"endTime":1933.004,"body":"In the, and they're, they're still"},{"startTime":1930.604,"endTime":1933.004,"body":"around, but, um, their heyday"},{"startTime":1933.034,"endTime":1934.414,"body":"was like right before COVID."},{"startTime":1934.914,"endTime":1937.674,"body":"and, you know, a couple of security"},{"startTime":1934.914,"endTime":1937.674,"body":"researchers started looking at"},{"startTime":1937.674,"endTime":1939.624,"body":"their stuff and found out they"},{"startTime":1937.674,"endTime":1939.624,"body":"didn't even use a blockchain, right?"},{"startTime":1939.624,"endTime":1943.134,"body":"Like it's, it, it turned, and, and,"},{"startTime":1939.624,"endTime":1943.134,"body":"you know, when they were transmitting"},{"startTime":1943.134,"endTime":1945.234,"body":"the data, they weren't, um."},{"startTime":1945.734,"endTime":1946.334,"body":"Masking it."},{"startTime":1946.334,"endTime":1949.124,"body":"So you could literally just watch"},{"startTime":1946.334,"endTime":1949.124,"body":"the bytes, go across the wire and"},{"startTime":1949.124,"endTime":1951.974,"body":"tell who someone voted for because,"},{"startTime":1949.124,"endTime":1951.974,"body":"you know, they weren't, they were"},{"startTime":1951.974,"endTime":1954.674,"body":"scrambling it or whatever, but it"},{"startTime":1951.974,"endTime":1954.674,"body":"wasn't like actually robustly encrypted."},{"startTime":1954.944,"endTime":1957.404,"body":"So like, the longer the candidate's"},{"startTime":1954.944,"endTime":1957.404,"body":"name was, the longer the bites"},{"startTime":1957.404,"endTime":1958.394,"body":"were that went to the server."},{"startTime":1958.394,"endTime":1963.664,"body":"And so, you know, like, uh, so you know,"},{"startTime":1958.394,"endTime":1963.664,"body":"it, it's, it, you know, support you voting"},{"startTime":1963.664,"endTime":1968.314,"body":"by PDF necessarily, but you know, there"},{"startTime":1963.664,"endTime":1968.314,"body":"are, there are better ways to do it."},{"startTime":1968.814,"endTime":1969.474,"body":"Oh gosh."},{"startTime":1969.804,"endTime":1974.339,"body":"I, uh, I hate, I hate that you didn't"},{"startTime":1969.804,"endTime":1974.339,"body":"even, you didn't even use the blockchain."},{"startTime":1974.594,"endTime":1975.644,"body":"You could, you could've."},{"startTime":1976.021,"endTime":1976.411,"body":"right."},{"startTime":1976.471,"endTime":1976.771,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1977.271,"endTime":1979.616,"body":"I, I have, I have, I have"},{"startTime":1977.271,"endTime":1979.616,"body":"a, I have a Helios question."},{"startTime":1979.616,"endTime":1983.816,"body":"Even though none of us are necessarily"},{"startTime":1979.616,"endTime":1983.816,"body":"Helios experts here, so if, if you look,"},{"startTime":1983.816,"endTime":1987.596,"body":"there's the, if you look at the Helios"},{"startTime":1983.816,"endTime":1987.596,"body":"paper or the first Helios paper, um,"},{"startTime":1987.746,"endTime":1991.136,"body":"there's like a, like two four of that"},{"startTime":1987.746,"endTime":1991.136,"body":"paper is what the whole process is."},{"startTime":1991.136,"endTime":1992.576,"body":"And just a couple of bullets, right?"},{"startTime":1992.786,"endTime":1997.442,"body":"So it's like, um, you know, the person"},{"startTime":1992.786,"endTime":1997.442,"body":"who's voting a ballot for themselves."},{"startTime":1997.442,"endTime":1999.272,"body":"You can prepare as many"},{"startTime":1997.442,"endTime":1999.272,"body":"ballots as you want, right?"},{"startTime":1999.512,"endTime":2004.572,"body":"When you, uh, you know, when, when you"},{"startTime":1999.512,"endTime":2004.572,"body":"feel comfortable with That the ballots"},{"startTime":2004.572,"endTime":2008.082,"body":"are valid or whatever, you're like getting"},{"startTime":2004.572,"endTime":2008.082,"body":"predictable fees on the ballots, you can"},{"startTime":2008.082,"endTime":2009.912,"body":"cast that ballot, which is essentially."},{"startTime":2010.858,"endTime":2013.528,"body":"that ballot to the private key"},{"startTime":2010.858,"endTime":2013.528,"body":"of the election administrators"},{"startTime":2013.528,"endTime":2014.758,"body":"to the trustees effectively."},{"startTime":2014.968,"endTime":2015.718,"body":"So far so good."},{"startTime":2015.718,"endTime":2016.138,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2016.138,"endTime":2016.738,"body":"That sounds good."},{"startTime":2017.027,"endTime":2020.027,"body":"That sounds they have to"},{"startTime":2017.027,"endTime":2020.027,"body":"do that in some fashion."},{"startTime":2020.027,"endTime":2020.297,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2020.758,"endTime":2024.538,"body":"So the key thing on the system,"},{"startTime":2020.758,"endTime":2024.538,"body":"like all of the, you know, the, the"},{"startTime":2024.538,"endTime":2027.538,"body":"voting systems of this vintage, I"},{"startTime":2024.538,"endTime":2027.538,"body":"guess that's, it's gonna be true of"},{"startTime":2027.538,"endTime":2031.768,"body":"blockchain voting too, but you cast a"},{"startTime":2027.538,"endTime":2031.768,"body":"vote, it gets recorded by the server"},{"startTime":2031.768,"endTime":2032.968,"body":"on a bulletin board for the vote."},{"startTime":2033.328,"endTime":2033.748,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2033.958,"endTime":2034.888,"body":"Um, which is what I see"},{"startTime":2034.907,"endTime":2035.317,"body":"I've seen,"},{"startTime":2035.398,"endTime":2039.988,"body":"my, my ballot for ICR just now is like,"},{"startTime":2035.398,"endTime":2039.988,"body":"you, you, you don't see people's names."},{"startTime":2039.988,"endTime":2043.708,"body":"You see like an identifier, um, you"},{"startTime":2039.988,"endTime":2043.708,"body":"get like a voting ID or whatever."},{"startTime":2043.888,"endTime":2048.648,"body":"You see the, the, the bulletin board of"},{"startTime":2043.888,"endTime":2048.648,"body":"all of the votes cast, that's step two."},{"startTime":2048.648,"endTime":2050.568,"body":"Everybody can check that"},{"startTime":2048.648,"endTime":2050.568,"body":"and see who's voted."},{"startTime":2051.018,"endTime":2054.968,"body":"Um, and then when the election"},{"startTime":2051.018,"endTime":2054.968,"body":"closes and they're about to go"},{"startTime":2054.968,"endTime":2057.688,"body":"tally all the votes, shuffle."},{"startTime":2058.033,"endTime":2059.953,"body":"All of the votes in the bulletin board."},{"startTime":2060.373,"endTime":2064.273,"body":"So the votes in the bulletin"},{"startTime":2060.373,"endTime":2064.273,"body":"board as cast are linked to"},{"startTime":2064.273,"endTime":2066.043,"body":"the voter if only by metadata."},{"startTime":2066.253,"endTime":2066.643,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2066.643,"endTime":2069.403,"body":"Like, you know, when it was cast, you"},{"startTime":2066.643,"endTime":2069.403,"body":"can do traffic analysis to see when it"},{"startTime":2069.403,"endTime":2071.893,"body":"was cast, um, to count all the votes."},{"startTime":2071.893,"endTime":2072.733,"body":"They're gonna decrypt them,"},{"startTime":2073.183,"endTime":2073.403,"body":"uh,"},{"startTime":2073.408,"endTime":2073.678,"body":"They're gonna"},{"startTime":2074.178,"endTime":2075.863,"body":"Not individually, I don't think."},{"startTime":2076.363,"endTime":2077.923,"body":"yeah, not individually."},{"startTime":2078.423,"endTime":2081.608,"body":"We're gonna multiply all of them together"},{"startTime":2078.423,"endTime":2081.608,"body":"to add them and then decrypt that right"},{"startTime":2082.108,"endTime":2082.328,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2082.628,"endTime":2083.049,"body":"they're, yeah."},{"startTime":2083.049,"endTime":2085.159,"body":"They're gonna decrypt,"},{"startTime":2083.049,"endTime":2085.159,"body":"talli, vote thingie."},{"startTime":2085.179,"endTime":2085.539,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2085.839,"endTime":2090.999,"body":"So like they do the shuffle step because"},{"startTime":2085.839,"endTime":2090.999,"body":"they don't want to be operating directly"},{"startTime":2090.999,"endTime":2094.899,"body":"on the bulletin board entries, which are"},{"startTime":2090.999,"endTime":2094.899,"body":"linked to the identifying the, the i,"},{"startTime":2094.899,"endTime":2099.219,"body":"the identities of the voters, which is"},{"startTime":2094.899,"endTime":2099.219,"body":"why they have all this mechanism to do"},{"startTime":2099.219,"endTime":2103.499,"body":"the shuffle and then to produce a proof"},{"startTime":2099.219,"endTime":2103.499,"body":"that there was a shuffle, which seems"},{"startTime":2103.499,"endTime":2108.389,"body":"like a, a big part of the core of the"},{"startTime":2103.499,"endTime":2108.389,"body":"system is like the verifiable shuffle."},{"startTime":2108.889,"endTime":2113.419,"body":"And the safeguard is if you don't"},{"startTime":2108.889,"endTime":2113.419,"body":"have that verifiable shuffle, people"},{"startTime":2113.419,"endTime":2114.859,"body":"will know the election wasn't valid."},{"startTime":2115.359,"endTime":2117.403,"body":"They'll just say It"},{"startTime":2115.359,"endTime":2117.403,"body":"wasn't, it wasn't right."},{"startTime":2117.509,"endTime":2117.689,"body":"But"},{"startTime":2117.703,"endTime":2117.923,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":2118.223,"endTime":2123.119,"body":"if you skip the shuffle, you can violate"},{"startTime":2118.223,"endTime":2123.119,"body":"the privacy of everybody that voted."},{"startTime":2123.619,"endTime":2128.004,"body":"yeah, it's, I don't think that if"},{"startTime":2123.619,"endTime":2128.004,"body":"you don't do the shuffle and have"},{"startTime":2128.004,"endTime":2129.594,"body":"a verifiable proof of shuffle."},{"startTime":2130.094,"endTime":2134.324,"body":"That you can't still do the, the"},{"startTime":2130.094,"endTime":2134.324,"body":"homomorphic tally and then decrypt it."},{"startTime":2134.354,"endTime":2142.074,"body":"You just lose the privacy of the, of"},{"startTime":2134.354,"endTime":2142.074,"body":"associating times of ballot, and like"},{"startTime":2142.434,"endTime":2146.904,"body":"literally the order in which those,"},{"startTime":2142.434,"endTime":2146.904,"body":"uh, those encrypted ballots came in."},{"startTime":2147.294,"endTime":2151.074,"body":"Um, you lose the privacy, but"},{"startTime":2147.294,"endTime":2151.074,"body":"you don't necessarily lose, like,"},{"startTime":2151.104,"endTime":2156.914,"body":"quote, the integrity um, of the"},{"startTime":2151.104,"endTime":2156.914,"body":"actual, uh, of the actual results."},{"startTime":2157.214,"endTime":2160.964,"body":"So leaving the server itself, like"},{"startTime":2157.214,"endTime":2160.964,"body":"the code behind it aside, which might"},{"startTime":2160.964,"endTime":2162.614,"body":"enforce arbitrary policies, right?"},{"startTime":2162.764,"endTime":2166.784,"body":"From a cryptographic perspective, it"},{"startTime":2162.764,"endTime":2166.784,"body":"is possible to tally all the votes"},{"startTime":2166.784,"endTime":2168.314,"body":"that were cast without shuffling them."},{"startTime":2168.814,"endTime":2168.974,"body":"think so."},{"startTime":2169.274,"endTime":2169.494,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2169.644,"endTime":2169.934,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2170.434,"endTime":2170.654,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2171.154,"endTime":2175.164,"body":"the only cryptographic safeguard"},{"startTime":2171.154,"endTime":2175.164,"body":"that they give you is, you would"},{"startTime":2175.164,"endTime":2176.424,"body":"at least know that that happened."},{"startTime":2176.604,"endTime":2179.094,"body":"'cause you wouldn't get the,"},{"startTime":2176.604,"endTime":2179.094,"body":"the, the, the, the cryptographic"},{"startTime":2179.094,"endTime":2180.144,"body":"proof that they did the shuffle."},{"startTime":2180.644,"endTime":2180.824,"body":"This is"},{"startTime":2181.129,"endTime":2181.419,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2181.784,"endTime":2183.374,"body":"why they have multiple trustees."},{"startTime":2183.554,"endTime":2186.494,"body":"So multiple trustees can"},{"startTime":2183.554,"endTime":2186.494,"body":"provide a cryptographic proof"},{"startTime":2186.794,"endTime":2187.994,"body":"that they did the shuffle."},{"startTime":2188.494,"endTime":2189.154,"body":"Oh, I didn't know that."},{"startTime":2189.334,"endTime":2189.754,"body":"That's cool."},{"startTime":2189.921,"endTime":2193.891,"body":"I mean you could just like take"},{"startTime":2189.921,"endTime":2193.891,"body":"a backup right Like there's no"},{"startTime":2193.921,"endTime":2197.371,"body":"cryptographic proof that the un shuffled"},{"startTime":2193.921,"endTime":2197.371,"body":"version doesn't still exist right"},{"startTime":2197.41,"endTime":2198.43,"body":"my whole question, right?"},{"startTime":2198.43,"endTime":2202.57,"body":"And this, this, this gets more generally"},{"startTime":2198.43,"endTime":2202.57,"body":"to voting systems and not just Helios."},{"startTime":2202.57,"endTime":2204.82,"body":"And I'm also saying this"},{"startTime":2202.57,"endTime":2204.82,"body":"because maybe Beida will hear"},{"startTime":2204.82,"endTime":2206.29,"body":"this and yell at me, but like."},{"startTime":2206.79,"endTime":2208.26,"body":"Do I care that much?"},{"startTime":2208.26,"endTime":2212.07,"body":"Like it seems like you want"},{"startTime":2208.26,"endTime":2212.07,"body":"more safeguard than, okay."},{"startTime":2212.07,"endTime":2214.59,"body":"I know the election was,"},{"startTime":2212.07,"endTime":2214.59,"body":"you know, manipulated."},{"startTime":2214.59,"endTime":2215.01,"body":"right"},{"startTime":2215.31,"endTime":2219.96,"body":"Um, like it's still a pretty grave privacy"},{"startTime":2215.31,"endTime":2219.96,"body":"violation to decrypt somebody's vote."},{"startTime":2220.46,"endTime":2221.63,"body":"To know how somebody voted."},{"startTime":2222.08,"endTime":2224.9,"body":"Like if that's the attack you're"},{"startTime":2222.08,"endTime":2224.9,"body":"worried about, it's, that's not an"},{"startTime":2224.9,"endTime":2226.28,"body":"attack on the integrity of the vote."},{"startTime":2226.28,"endTime":2229.64,"body":"It's an, it's an attack on, you know,"},{"startTime":2226.28,"endTime":2229.64,"body":"the safety of individual voters."},{"startTime":2230.12,"endTime":2231.62,"body":"I'm wondering what I'm missing about this."},{"startTime":2231.864,"endTime":2237.589,"body":"So I don't think, the, the, uh,"},{"startTime":2231.864,"endTime":2237.589,"body":"executors of the election, the ones"},{"startTime":2237.589,"endTime":2240.469,"body":"that you encrypt your ballot to."},{"startTime":2240.969,"endTime":2249.369,"body":"Um, can decrypt, uh, individual ballots,"},{"startTime":2240.969,"endTime":2249.369,"body":"um, or your, your individual ballot"},{"startTime":2249.869,"endTime":2253.879,"body":"Clearly they cannot, individual"},{"startTime":2249.869,"endTime":2253.879,"body":"trustees cannot be crypt."},{"startTime":2254.179,"endTime":2256.344,"body":"or else we wouldn't be in this situation."},{"startTime":2256.844,"endTime":2257.354,"body":"Uh, yeah."},{"startTime":2257.354,"endTime":2260.024,"body":"So it it's, there's still a level."},{"startTime":2260.024,"endTime":2264.584,"body":"It's, yeah, like, like you mentioned"},{"startTime":2260.024,"endTime":2264.584,"body":"there, there's still a level of like"},{"startTime":2265.417,"endTime":2272.407,"body":"value that you cast as your ballot is"},{"startTime":2265.417,"endTime":2272.407,"body":"still protected, um, by the El Gamal,"},{"startTime":2272.907,"endTime":2278.547,"body":"The fact that you, like, it's can be,"},{"startTime":2272.907,"endTime":2278.547,"body":"you can get a lot of meta information,"},{"startTime":2278.547,"endTime":2283.437,"body":"metadata about the voters and when"},{"startTime":2278.547,"endTime":2283.437,"body":"they voted and at what time they voted."},{"startTime":2283.437,"endTime":2290.817,"body":"And you can associate, um, you know, this"},{"startTime":2283.437,"endTime":2290.817,"body":"encrypted ballot was cast first and you"},{"startTime":2290.877,"endTime":2294.837,"body":"know, based on the, the server logs, we"},{"startTime":2290.877,"endTime":2294.837,"body":"can see that it was cast from somewhere"},{"startTime":2294.837,"endTime":2296.907,"body":"in European Central time or whatever."},{"startTime":2297.327,"endTime":2297.645,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":2297.945,"endTime":2300.42,"body":"tweeted, Hey, I, I just"},{"startTime":2297.945,"endTime":2300.42,"body":"voted in the, you know?"},{"startTime":2300.867,"endTime":2301.257,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2301.287,"endTime":2304.617,"body":"So it's, it's, I think it's that"},{"startTime":2301.287,"endTime":2304.617,"body":"sort of thing, but I do not think"},{"startTime":2304.617,"endTime":2310.557,"body":"you cannot, you can decrypt literally"},{"startTime":2304.617,"endTime":2310.557,"body":"what the very first vote cast, um, by"},{"startTime":2310.557,"endTime":2314.967,"body":"someone who tweeted that they did that,"},{"startTime":2310.557,"endTime":2314.967,"body":"uh, what the value of that vote is."},{"startTime":2315.057,"endTime":2315.458,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":2315.758,"endTime":2318.338,"body":"do the shuffle right, like"},{"startTime":2315.758,"endTime":2318.338,"body":"just, just assume you're doing"},{"startTime":2318.338,"endTime":2319.328,"body":"everything ho amorphously."},{"startTime":2319.328,"endTime":2319.748,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2319.778,"endTime":2319.958,"body":"You'd"},{"startTime":2320.037,"endTime":2320.397,"body":"yeah,"},{"startTime":2320.408,"endTime":2321.308,"body":"roughly what the votes were."},{"startTime":2321.308,"endTime":2321.518,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2321.518,"endTime":2324.688,"body":"Because you know the before and"},{"startTime":2321.518,"endTime":2324.688,"body":"after state of each one of the   Yes."},{"startTime":2324.852,"endTime":2324.972,"body":"I,"},{"startTime":2325.018,"endTime":2325.858,"body":"making faces at me."},{"startTime":2326.008,"endTime":2326.308,"body":"Let the"},{"startTime":2326.532,"endTime":2328.198,"body":"I guess you could."},{"startTime":2328.498,"endTime":2328.918,"body":"faces at"},{"startTime":2329.119,"endTime":2332.359,"body":"I'm with you Yeah You just"},{"startTime":2329.119,"endTime":2332.359,"body":"homomorphic with all but one"},{"startTime":2332.83,"endTime":2333.25,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2333.55,"endTime":2338.017,"body":"in theory you could just be like,"},{"startTime":2333.55,"endTime":2338.017,"body":"cool the vote, like, one, one vote"},{"startTime":2338.017,"endTime":2340.477,"body":"cast decrypt the entire thing,"},{"startTime":2340.5,"endTime":2340.777,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2340.92,"endTime":2341.21,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2341.647,"endTime":2341.93,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2341.947,"endTime":2343.837,"body":"the entire thing, and so on and so on."},{"startTime":2343.959,"endTime":2345.839,"body":"Yes Yeah but"},{"startTime":2345.848,"endTime":2347.279,"body":"is not like a new attack on the system."},{"startTime":2347.408,"endTime":2347.558,"body":"Like"},{"startTime":2347.579,"endTime":2347.969,"body":"you would"},{"startTime":2348.038,"endTime":2348.398,"body":"reason they"},{"startTime":2348.479,"endTime":2349.829,"body":"you would need all three"},{"startTime":2350.247,"endTime":2350.427,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2350.517,"endTime":2350.607,"body":"You"},{"startTime":2350.639,"endTime":2352.077,"body":"trustees or whatever to Yeah"},{"startTime":2352.377,"endTime":2354.777,"body":"all, all the shards or whatever."},{"startTime":2354.837,"endTime":2358.737,"body":"Uh, you know, the three of three, I'm not"},{"startTime":2354.837,"endTime":2358.737,"body":"even fully sure if it's three of three or"},{"startTime":2358.737,"endTime":2360.627,"body":"if it's, I think it, I think it's literal."},{"startTime":2360.657,"endTime":2362.307,"body":"Like this version of he Helios is"},{"startTime":2362.525,"endTime":2363.285,"body":"it's just three."},{"startTime":2363.585,"endTime":2365.637,"body":"just like, I need this chunk."},{"startTime":2365.637,"endTime":2367.407,"body":"It's not even like three of three."},{"startTime":2367.467,"endTime":2368.007,"body":"you know, which"},{"startTime":2368.007,"endTime":2368.437,"body":"Shamir"},{"startTime":2368.457,"endTime":2369.597,"body":"polynomials under the hood."},{"startTime":2369.597,"endTime":2369.777,"body":"it's"},{"startTime":2369.869,"endTime":2371.307,"body":"it's everyone gets a third"},{"startTime":2371.607,"endTime":2372.419,"body":"I think so."},{"startTime":2372.719,"endTime":2372.959,"body":"Okay"},{"startTime":2373.107,"endTime":2373.797,"body":"I think so."},{"startTime":2374.168,"endTime":2374.468,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":2374.498,"endTime":2374.768,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2374.768,"endTime":2375.008,"body":"so."},{"startTime":2375.008,"endTime":2380.318,"body":"even if you wanted to, like, even if"},{"startTime":2375.008,"endTime":2380.318,"body":"you wanted to break the whole election"},{"startTime":2380.738,"endTime":2384.518,"body":"and violate somebody's privacy, you'd"},{"startTime":2380.738,"endTime":2384.518,"body":"need to get all three trustees to do it."},{"startTime":2385.018,"endTime":2387.928,"body":"After you did that, there'd be"},{"startTime":2385.018,"endTime":2387.928,"body":"cryptographic proof that that happened,"},{"startTime":2387.928,"endTime":2390.328,"body":"or at least there'd be cryptographic"},{"startTime":2387.928,"endTime":2390.328,"body":"proof that you didn't do the shuffle."},{"startTime":2390.538,"endTime":2391.858,"body":"But as long as any of the"},{"startTime":2392.209,"endTime":2392.629,"body":"No"},{"startTime":2392.638,"endTime":2393.058,"body":"shuffle,"},{"startTime":2393.139,"endTime":2395.539,"body":"would be Crip There wouldn't"},{"startTime":2393.139,"endTime":2395.539,"body":"be cryptographic proof"},{"startTime":2395.539,"endTime":2396.799,"body":"that you did the shuffle"},{"startTime":2397.299,"endTime":2397.779,"body":"That's what I mean."},{"startTime":2397.839,"endTime":2398.319,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2398.683,"endTime":2404.643,"body":"So Wikipedia page says 2.0,"},{"startTime":2398.683,"endTime":2404.643,"body":"Helios abandoned the shuffle"},{"startTime":2404.703,"endTime":2409.143,"body":"and switch to a homomorphic"},{"startTime":2404.703,"endTime":2409.143,"body":"encryption scheme to make"},{"startTime":2409.143,"endTime":2411.153,"body":"sure that that was, uh, kept"},{"startTime":2411.235,"endTime":2411.655,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"startTime":2412.113,"endTime":2413.013,"body":"So we"},{"startTime":2413.145,"endTime":2413.615,"body":"Great job"},{"startTime":2413.703,"endTime":2413.823,"body":"of"},{"startTime":2413.961,"endTime":2417.141,"body":"Because you could, you could still do"},{"startTime":2413.961,"endTime":2417.141,"body":"this, could because couldn't you still"},{"startTime":2417.641,"endTime":2420.801,"body":"decrypt as you went and then at the end"},{"startTime":2417.641,"endTime":2420.801,"body":"you still have the original ciphertext."},{"startTime":2420.821,"endTime":2422.571,"body":"Just add them all"},{"startTime":2420.821,"endTime":2422.571,"body":"together and decrypt them."},{"startTime":2422.801,"endTime":2424.841,"body":"Final tally or, or do"},{"startTime":2422.801,"endTime":2424.841,"body":"the shuffle or whatever."},{"startTime":2424.841,"endTime":2425.063,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2425.363,"endTime":2426.773,"body":"Yes, I think so."},{"startTime":2427.273,"endTime":2429.583,"body":"So I think there's like"},{"startTime":2427.273,"endTime":2429.583,"body":"two things going on here."},{"startTime":2429.986,"endTime":2430.556,"body":"yes."},{"startTime":2430.933,"endTime":2431.953,"body":"concern and one is the,"},{"startTime":2432.453,"endTime":2432.963,"body":"Integrity."},{"startTime":2433.263,"endTime":2434.073,"body":"Integrity"},{"startTime":2434.301,"endTime":2434.871,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":2435.371,"endTime":2435.911,"body":"sort of."},{"startTime":2436.017,"endTime":2439.137,"body":"the privacy on this podcast will have"},{"startTime":2436.017,"endTime":2439.137,"body":"an indeterminate amount of time in"},{"startTime":2439.137,"endTime":2442.497,"body":"between when we record this episode"},{"startTime":2439.137,"endTime":2442.497,"body":"um and when we release it So you"},{"startTime":2442.497,"endTime":2445.601,"body":"can't figure time and figure out"},{"startTime":2442.497,"endTime":2445.601,"body":"which vote came from me And Thomas"},{"startTime":2445.901,"endTime":2449.441,"body":"we'll provide some sort of"},{"startTime":2445.901,"endTime":2449.441,"body":"non-interactive zero knowledge proof"},{"startTime":2449.441,"endTime":2452.171,"body":"that we, you know, of the time."},{"startTime":2452.351,"endTime":2453.731,"body":"I don't know, something like that."},{"startTime":2454.231,"endTime":2454.351,"body":"have"},{"startTime":2454.417,"endTime":2457.657,"body":"when you just message Deirdre and she"},{"startTime":2454.417,"endTime":2457.657,"body":"says yes or no depending on if you're"},{"startTime":2457.657,"endTime":2459.007,"body":"on the right or left side of the time"},{"startTime":2459.507,"endTime":2462.117,"body":"just like understanding why there are"},{"startTime":2459.507,"endTime":2462.117,"body":"three trustees and how they're actually"},{"startTime":2462.117,"endTime":2463.587,"body":"like, what the roles of these people are"},{"startTime":2463.996,"endTime":2464.746,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":2464.757,"endTime":2465.987,"body":"these components in the system, mark."},{"startTime":2466.487,"endTime":2470.387,"body":"One trustee always tells the truth"},{"startTime":2466.487,"endTime":2470.387,"body":"One trustee always tells lies"},{"startTime":2470.388,"endTime":2471.438,"body":"Two trustees."},{"startTime":2471.438,"endTime":2471.678,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2471.678,"endTime":2473.013,"body":"Three trustees is a party."},{"startTime":2473.023,"endTime":2473.373,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2473.373,"endTime":2474.373,"body":"What's the, you know,"},{"startTime":2474.873,"endTime":2479.078,"body":"All of them are trying to cross the river"},{"startTime":2474.873,"endTime":2479.078,"body":"to get to real world crypto But one of"},{"startTime":2479.078,"endTime":2481.568,"body":"em has a wolf and one of em has a chicken"},{"startTime":2481.668,"endTime":2484.188,"body":"One of em threw their"},{"startTime":2481.668,"endTime":2484.188,"body":"USB stick in the lake"},{"startTime":2484.688,"endTime":2488.528,"body":"I think what I heard is literally"},{"startTime":2484.688,"endTime":2488.528,"body":"there was a file and it got saved down"},{"startTime":2488.528,"endTime":2490.928,"body":"somewhere and they just couldn't find it."},{"startTime":2491.428,"endTime":2495.463,"body":"I I, I wish it was just literally, this"},{"startTime":2491.428,"endTime":2495.463,"body":"is, there's a USB stick and I have to"},{"startTime":2495.463,"endTime":2497.263,"body":"plug it in and I can't find it anymore."},{"startTime":2498.013,"endTime":2502.743,"body":"Yeah, the shuffling thing is, is still"},{"startTime":2498.013,"endTime":2502.743,"body":"confusing to me in that because I don't,"},{"startTime":2502.743,"endTime":2504.303,"body":"does the paper talk about elgamal?"},{"startTime":2504.803,"endTime":2507.023,"body":"Uh, the 2008 paper does."},{"startTime":2507.323,"endTime":2508.133,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":2508.633,"endTime":2509.263,"body":"Yeah, it does."},{"startTime":2509.293,"endTime":2509.323,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2509.773,"endTime":2513.793,"body":"I'm just impressed Ben has maintained"},{"startTime":2509.773,"endTime":2513.793,"body":"a Python project for like what"},{"startTime":2514.233,"endTime":2516.281,"body":"17 years Like that's pretty good"},{"startTime":2516.581,"endTime":2518.801,"body":"a solid Django project?"},{"startTime":2519.301,"endTime":2523.291,"body":"Like were we even on Python two"},{"startTime":2519.301,"endTime":2523.291,"body":"TH two seven in 2008 Like I don't"},{"startTime":2523.291,"endTime":2526.411,"body":"not even remember might have"},{"startTime":2523.291,"endTime":2526.411,"body":"been two five still or two 3 2 4"},{"startTime":2526.911,"endTime":2534.991,"body":"Um, so  unfortunately, even if we do the"},{"startTime":2526.911,"endTime":2534.991,"body":"fancy whizzbang version with like, uh,"},{"startTime":2535.021,"endTime":2542.058,"body":"fully homomorphic encryption and, uh,"},{"startTime":2535.021,"endTime":2542.058,"body":"threshold decryption and two of n or, you"},{"startTime":2542.058,"endTime":2548.268,"body":"know, however, t event, uh, for actually"},{"startTime":2542.058,"endTime":2548.268,"body":"decrypting the, the ballots, uh, the full,"},{"startTime":2548.268,"endTime":2549.798,"body":"the full tally, everything like that."},{"startTime":2550.298,"endTime":2555.478,"body":"It still reduces down to you have a"},{"startTime":2550.298,"endTime":2555.478,"body":"key and you gotta maintain that key."},{"startTime":2555.978,"endTime":2560.748,"body":"It sounds like a very human"},{"startTime":2555.978,"endTime":2560.748,"body":"issue, uh, that we just don't"},{"startTime":2560.778,"endTime":2563.598,"body":"quite have a good way to solve."},{"startTime":2563.598,"endTime":2564.938,"body":"So,  don't know."},{"startTime":2564.938,"endTime":2567.218,"body":"Matt, you seem to have the"},{"startTime":2564.938,"endTime":2567.218,"body":"most experience in this field."},{"startTime":2567.218,"endTime":2571.738,"body":"Like are we getting any, uh, getting"},{"startTime":2567.218,"endTime":2571.738,"body":"anywhere into a future where like,"},{"startTime":2571.948,"endTime":2576.268,"body":"don't lose this key is not just like"},{"startTime":2571.948,"endTime":2576.268,"body":"the root of all of our problems."},{"startTime":2577.108,"endTime":2580.933,"body":"I think  you're, you're, you know,"},{"startTime":2577.108,"endTime":2580.933,"body":"there's, always devolves to like"},{"startTime":2580.933,"endTime":2584.563,"body":"somebody maintaining an X 5 0 9 cert"},{"startTime":2580.933,"endTime":2584.563,"body":"in an HSM somewhere and then deriving,"},{"startTime":2584.563,"endTime":2586.483,"body":"uh, you know, keys from there."},{"startTime":2586.783,"endTime":2588.133,"body":"Uh, I don't really know."},{"startTime":2588.253,"endTime":2589.093,"body":"Uh, yeah."},{"startTime":2589.593,"endTime":2594.003,"body":"I do think that the actually"},{"startTime":2589.593,"endTime":2594.003,"body":"getting threshold, threshold,"},{"startTime":2594.003,"endTime":2595.743,"body":"encryption, threshold, whatever."},{"startTime":2596.243,"endTime":2601.553,"body":"working, uh, helps so that, you"},{"startTime":2596.243,"endTime":2601.553,"body":"know, if you lose one piece,"},{"startTime":2601.553,"endTime":2602.77,"body":"you're not totally fucked."},{"startTime":2603.07,"endTime":2603.49,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2603.79,"endTime":2608.773,"body":"have TA configurable T of N. the"},{"startTime":2603.79,"endTime":2608.773,"body":"trouble is that actually setting"},{"startTime":2608.803,"endTime":2613.063,"body":"up all of those threshold-ized"},{"startTime":2608.803,"endTime":2613.063,"body":"keys is a whole other rigmarole."},{"startTime":2613.423,"endTime":2617.563,"body":"Um, you can have a trusted dealer usually,"},{"startTime":2613.423,"endTime":2617.563,"body":"and that's, you know, maybe if you all sit"},{"startTime":2617.563,"endTime":2621.073,"body":"in one place and you do it and you just"},{"startTime":2617.563,"endTime":2621.073,"body":"trust each other, you could just do that."},{"startTime":2621.073,"endTime":2625.113,"body":"But if you're not, you either"},{"startTime":2621.073,"endTime":2625.113,"body":"have to send, just send them via"},{"startTime":2625.113,"endTime":2627.903,"body":"some other secure, confidential"},{"startTime":2625.113,"endTime":2627.903,"body":"channel that you authenticate, a"},{"startTime":2628.145,"endTime":2630.305,"body":"Is another key bootstrapping problem."},{"startTime":2630.31,"endTime":2630.56,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2630.58,"endTime":2631.0,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2631.353,"endTime":2635.043,"body":"you do some sort of fancy distributed"},{"startTime":2631.353,"endTime":2635.043,"body":"key generation thing, which is very,"},{"startTime":2635.103,"endTime":2638.643,"body":"you know, it's very popular and they"},{"startTime":2635.103,"endTime":2638.643,"body":"try to make that happen in like, kind"},{"startTime":2638.643,"endTime":2642.153,"body":"of the blockchain world where you"},{"startTime":2638.643,"endTime":2642.153,"body":"don't really trust each other and"},{"startTime":2642.153,"endTime":2645.153,"body":"there's, you don't want to have any"},{"startTime":2642.153,"endTime":2645.153,"body":"centralized, trusted authority who's"},{"startTime":2645.153,"endTime":2646.683,"body":"generating keys and handing them out."},{"startTime":2647.103,"endTime":2650.613,"body":"Um, but depending on the kind of"},{"startTime":2647.103,"endTime":2650.613,"body":"cryptographic system that you're using,"},{"startTime":2650.643,"endTime":2652.563,"body":"um, that can get real complicated too."},{"startTime":2652.563,"endTime":2657.393,"body":"Like you might have dkg that"},{"startTime":2652.563,"endTime":2657.393,"body":"have multiple rounds and can"},{"startTime":2657.393,"endTime":2660.023,"body":"fail and, on, on and on and on."},{"startTime":2660.023,"endTime":2663.443,"body":"And, you know, maybe you need to use"},{"startTime":2660.023,"endTime":2663.443,"body":"something called a broadcast channel."},{"startTime":2663.443,"endTime":2667.823,"body":"If you ask a cryptographer who publishes"},{"startTime":2663.443,"endTime":2667.823,"body":"a distributed key generation algorithm"},{"startTime":2667.853,"endTime":2670.973,"body":"of paper, and you're like, where can I"},{"startTime":2667.853,"endTime":2670.973,"body":"get, where can I pull an implementation"},{"startTime":2670.973,"endTime":2673.343,"body":"of a broadcast channel from like GitHub?"},{"startTime":2673.343,"endTime":2674.153,"body":"They're like, what?"},{"startTime":2674.333,"endTime":2674.873,"body":"What do you mean?"},{"startTime":2675.373,"endTime":2676.753,"body":"Because that thing doesn't exist."},{"startTime":2677.143,"endTime":2677.653,"body":"So."},{"startTime":2678.153,"endTime":2682.443,"body":"You know, uh, to, to quote Lee Kissner,"},{"startTime":2678.153,"endTime":2682.443,"body":"um, you just, cryptography tends to"},{"startTime":2682.533,"endTime":2686.193,"body":"take security or other problems and"},{"startTime":2682.533,"endTime":2686.193,"body":"turn them into key management problems."},{"startTime":2686.193,"endTime":2690.093,"body":"And that could, like, it continues"},{"startTime":2686.193,"endTime":2690.093,"body":"even down the rabbit hole of the"},{"startTime":2690.093,"endTime":2694.773,"body":"threshold stuff, which in theory would"},{"startTime":2690.093,"endTime":2694.773,"body":"help mitigate the, someone loses their"},{"startTime":2694.773,"endTime":2697.623,"body":"part of the key thing to a point."},{"startTime":2697.623,"endTime":2700.953,"body":"And, uh, I don't know if we're,"},{"startTime":2697.623,"endTime":2700.953,"body":"uh, we might be improving it a"},{"startTime":2700.953,"endTime":2703.203,"body":"little bit, but not completely."},{"startTime":2703.453,"endTime":2704.048,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I"},{"startTime":2704.187,"endTime":2704.482,"body":"I mean,"},{"startTime":2704.498,"endTime":2708.084,"body":"like Election Guard does"},{"startTime":2704.498,"endTime":2708.084,"body":"threshold, it does KFN or TFN."},{"startTime":2708.144,"endTime":2711.684,"body":"Um, and yeah, you literally sit in a"},{"startTime":2708.144,"endTime":2711.684,"body":"room with your Microsoft Surface tablets,"},{"startTime":2712.104,"endTime":2715.284,"body":"you know, all the trustees come and"},{"startTime":2712.104,"endTime":2715.284,"body":"they, they do a key generation ceremony."},{"startTime":2715.284,"endTime":2718.764,"body":"So it's not, it doesn't really get"},{"startTime":2715.284,"endTime":2718.764,"body":"better than that, as far as I can tell."},{"startTime":2718.881,"endTime":2721.221,"body":"what What is Election Guard Sorry"},{"startTime":2721.521,"endTime":2721.732,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2721.732,"endTime":2721.942,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2721.942,"endTime":2725.332,"body":"So Election Guard is an open"},{"startTime":2721.942,"endTime":2725.332,"body":"source specification and"},{"startTime":2725.332,"endTime":2727.402,"body":"implementation of end-to-end."},{"startTime":2727.432,"endTime":2731.772,"body":"So Helios is like classified as an"},{"startTime":2727.432,"endTime":2731.772,"body":"end-to-end verifiable voting system."},{"startTime":2732.192,"endTime":2736.302,"body":"There's like three properties of"},{"startTime":2732.192,"endTime":2736.302,"body":"end-to-end verifiability, or it depends"},{"startTime":2736.302,"endTime":2739.002,"body":"on who you ask, but there's a bunch of"},{"startTime":2736.302,"endTime":2739.002,"body":"different definitions of the literature."},{"startTime":2739.332,"endTime":2743.462,"body":"Um, I think the most adopted one"},{"startTime":2739.332,"endTime":2743.462,"body":"is, is there's three properties."},{"startTime":2743.462,"endTime":2748.202,"body":"There's, um, cast as intended, collected"},{"startTime":2743.462,"endTime":2748.202,"body":"as cast, and, uh, tallied as collected."},{"startTime":2748.722,"endTime":2750.472,"body":"cast as intended means, I'm the voter."},{"startTime":2750.892,"endTime":2755.422,"body":"I voted for Bob and the system"},{"startTime":2750.892,"endTime":2755.422,"body":"recorded my vote for Bob correctly."},{"startTime":2755.452,"endTime":2758.032,"body":"That's the Helios coercing thing"},{"startTime":2755.452,"endTime":2758.032,"body":"where you can decrypt your ballot."},{"startTime":2758.422,"endTime":2760.502,"body":"There's, um, collected"},{"startTime":2758.422,"endTime":2760.502,"body":"as cast, which is, I"},{"startTime":2760.502,"endTime":2761.262,"body":"submitted my"},{"startTime":2761.752,"endTime":2764.232,"body":"ballot and I now have proof that"},{"startTime":2761.752,"endTime":2764.232,"body":"it was received by the server."},{"startTime":2764.232,"endTime":2767.052,"body":"So that's the bulletin board thing where"},{"startTime":2764.232,"endTime":2767.052,"body":"I have the ciphertext and I can see that"},{"startTime":2767.052,"endTime":2768.222,"body":"the ciphertext is in the same place."},{"startTime":2768.222,"endTime":2772.242,"body":"And again, I've convinced myself that the"},{"startTime":2768.222,"endTime":2772.242,"body":"same inputs produce the same ciphertext or"},{"startTime":2772.242,"endTime":2774.112,"body":"whatever, you know, a correct ciphertext."},{"startTime":2774.132,"endTime":2777.732,"body":"And then there's a tallied as collected,"},{"startTime":2774.132,"endTime":2777.732,"body":"which is the homomorphic encryption thing."},{"startTime":2777.732,"endTime":2782.312,"body":"Anyone can grab all the ciphertexts"},{"startTime":2777.732,"endTime":2782.312,"body":"and, and, uh, munch them all together,"},{"startTime":2782.312,"endTime":2786.632,"body":"produce a tally and verify that the"},{"startTime":2782.312,"endTime":2786.632,"body":"ballots, you know, uh, it's, it's"},{"startTime":2786.632,"endTime":2787.772,"body":"garbage in, garbage out, right?"},{"startTime":2787.772,"endTime":2792.362,"body":"That if the right data went in, then the,"},{"startTime":2787.772,"endTime":2792.362,"body":"the right election outcome comes out."},{"startTime":2792.362,"endTime":2796.112,"body":"So Helios is, is part of a"},{"startTime":2792.362,"endTime":2796.112,"body":"broader, like, constellation of"},{"startTime":2796.112,"endTime":2797.642,"body":"these end-to-end voting systems."},{"startTime":2797.972,"endTime":2801.802,"body":"And, uh, Election Guard is sort"},{"startTime":2797.972,"endTime":2801.802,"body":"of the most, not, it's definitely"},{"startTime":2801.802,"endTime":2805.792,"body":"not the only, uh, robust Swiss"},{"startTime":2801.802,"endTime":2805.792,"body":"Post actually has a, a, uh, an"},{"startTime":2805.792,"endTime":2809.332,"body":"implementation that I believe Olivier"},{"startTime":2805.792,"endTime":2809.332,"body":"Pereira, who also worked on Helios."},{"startTime":2809.662,"endTime":2811.882,"body":"Did an analysis of with,"},{"startTime":2809.662,"endTime":2811.882,"body":"uh, Vanessa Teague."},{"startTime":2811.912,"endTime":2812.872,"body":"And, um,"},{"startTime":2812.885,"endTime":2813.455,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":2813.772,"endTime":2814.162,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":2814.282,"endTime":2816.172,"body":"Um, and they, they found"},{"startTime":2814.282,"endTime":2816.172,"body":"a bunch of problems."},{"startTime":2816.172,"endTime":2818.362,"body":"You know, they went through an"},{"startTime":2816.172,"endTime":2818.362,"body":"open process 'cause they're, uh,"},{"startTime":2818.392,"endTime":2821.182,"body":"you know, it's a governmental"},{"startTime":2818.392,"endTime":2821.182,"body":"process, so they had to submit for"},{"startTime":2821.182,"endTime":2822.322,"body":"feedback and all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2822.802,"endTime":2824.692,"body":"Um, so, so Swiss Post is one variant."},{"startTime":2824.782,"endTime":2827.362,"body":"Um, and, and Microsoft kind"},{"startTime":2824.782,"endTime":2827.362,"body":"of their goal was like."},{"startTime":2827.862,"endTime":2829.512,"body":"How do we make election security better?"},{"startTime":2829.902,"endTime":2832.422,"body":"Why don't we just put out an SDK"},{"startTime":2829.902,"endTime":2832.422,"body":"that supports all the end-to-end"},{"startTime":2832.422,"endTime":2836.202,"body":"primitives so that any vendor, you"},{"startTime":2832.422,"endTime":2836.202,"body":"know, like a voting machine vendor"},{"startTime":2836.202,"endTime":2841.002,"body":"or an internet voting vendor can use"},{"startTime":2836.202,"endTime":2841.002,"body":"it and actually do better than just"},{"startTime":2841.272,"endTime":2844.032,"body":"being votes and not using a blockchain"},{"startTime":2841.272,"endTime":2844.032,"body":"and saying you're using a blockchain."},{"startTime":2844.032,"endTime":2844.332,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2844.832,"endTime":2847.922,"body":"and there's actually, literally a"},{"startTime":2844.832,"endTime":2847.922,"body":"couple weeks ago they launched, uh,"},{"startTime":2847.952,"endTime":2853.072,"body":"there was another competitor, SDK kind"},{"startTime":2847.952,"endTime":2853.072,"body":"of thing launched that also is, it's,"},{"startTime":2853.072,"endTime":2856.582,"body":"it was written by Free and Fair and"},{"startTime":2853.072,"endTime":2856.582,"body":"it's, uh, it's, you know, Election"},{"startTime":2856.582,"endTime":2859.042,"body":"Guard and this new thing by Free and"},{"startTime":2856.582,"endTime":2859.042,"body":"Fair that I can't remember the name"},{"startTime":2859.042,"endTime":2862.222,"body":"of are, you know, they've done, like,"},{"startTime":2859.042,"endTime":2862.222,"body":"they've written up proofs in like"},{"startTime":2862.222,"endTime":2866.002,"body":"Coq and stuff and they've like, you"},{"startTime":2862.222,"endTime":2866.002,"body":"know, it's verifiable, et cetera."},{"startTime":2866.452,"endTime":2867.712,"body":"Supposedly it's correct."},{"startTime":2867.772,"endTime":2871.002,"body":"Um, uh, yeah, so Election Guard"},{"startTime":2867.772,"endTime":2871.002,"body":"is Microsoft versions of that."},{"startTime":2871.032,"endTime":2872.952,"body":"Microsoft's version of"},{"startTime":2871.032,"endTime":2872.952,"body":"that is probably the most."},{"startTime":2873.452,"endTime":2874.652,"body":"used in the United States."},{"startTime":2875.132,"endTime":2878.672,"body":"Um, it's been taken up by one of"},{"startTime":2875.132,"endTime":2878.672,"body":"the major voting hardware vendors."},{"startTime":2878.882,"endTime":2879.842,"body":"Um, my employer."},{"startTime":2879.842,"endTime":2882.782,"body":"We use it for our, um,"},{"startTime":2879.842,"endTime":2882.782,"body":"one of our applications."},{"startTime":2883.172,"endTime":2887.672,"body":"Um, and yeah, it, it's just, it's kind"},{"startTime":2883.172,"endTime":2887.672,"body":"of like Helios with a few more bells"},{"startTime":2887.672,"endTime":2891.542,"body":"and whistles that is just an SDK that"},{"startTime":2887.672,"endTime":2891.542,"body":"you can use instead of hosting it as a,"},{"startTime":2891.992,"endTime":2893.987,"body":"a web, as a wholly self-contained app."},{"startTime":2894.465,"endTime":2899.255,"body":"so if it's an sdk, like is there,"},{"startTime":2894.465,"endTime":2899.255,"body":"like how does it fit into some sort"},{"startTime":2899.255,"endTime":2903.575,"body":"of backend or is it just sort of like"},{"startTime":2899.255,"endTime":2903.575,"body":"all sitting on, you know, basically"},{"startTime":2903.575,"endTime":2907.145,"body":"like a, like a PC that you sit in"},{"startTime":2903.575,"endTime":2907.145,"body":"your precinct or something like that?"},{"startTime":2907.645,"endTime":2909.955,"body":"so there's many different"},{"startTime":2907.645,"endTime":2909.955,"body":"ways you can run it, right?"},{"startTime":2909.955,"endTime":2911.995,"body":"So there's, uh, that is one of them."},{"startTime":2912.055,"endTime":2914.635,"body":"And I think that's what, like Hart"},{"startTime":2912.055,"endTime":2914.635,"body":"Inner Civic, the, the vendor that has"},{"startTime":2914.845,"endTime":2918.205,"body":"integrated it Voting Works actually"},{"startTime":2914.845,"endTime":2918.205,"body":"also, uh, did a pilot with it as well."},{"startTime":2918.705,"endTime":2922.655,"body":"where you have, there is an Election"},{"startTime":2918.705,"endTime":2922.655,"body":"Guard app that is what does the"},{"startTime":2922.655,"endTime":2925.715,"body":"key ceremony and all that stuff and"},{"startTime":2922.655,"endTime":2925.715,"body":"exports the cryptographic material."},{"startTime":2925.955,"endTime":2928.955,"body":"And then whatever thing on the other"},{"startTime":2925.955,"endTime":2928.955,"body":"end of it is, takes in that material"},{"startTime":2928.955,"endTime":2930.625,"body":"and uses it to generate ciphertext."},{"startTime":2930.935,"endTime":2933.515,"body":"And then you export the ciphertext"},{"startTime":2930.935,"endTime":2933.515,"body":"from whatever that thing is back to the"},{"startTime":2933.515,"endTime":2938.465,"body":"Election Guard machine, uh, to tally,"},{"startTime":2933.515,"endTime":2938.465,"body":"you know, and do the, the, the crypto."},{"startTime":2938.825,"endTime":2941.945,"body":"Um, so like we use it for, um."},{"startTime":2942.445,"endTime":2944.935,"body":"Internet voting for military"},{"startTime":2942.445,"endTime":2944.935,"body":"and overseas voters, right."},{"startTime":2945.175,"endTime":2948.205,"body":"Harden or Civic is using it"},{"startTime":2945.175,"endTime":2948.205,"body":"for paper ballots, right?"},{"startTime":2948.205,"endTime":2951.085,"body":"So you, you put your paper ballot through"},{"startTime":2948.205,"endTime":2951.085,"body":"the scanner and it, it has a little"},{"startTime":2951.085,"endTime":2955.045,"body":"bit of Election Guard code local to the"},{"startTime":2951.085,"endTime":2955.045,"body":"scanner that encrypts the ballot there."},{"startTime":2955.405,"endTime":2959.305,"body":"Uh, and you can do, you know, the"},{"startTime":2955.405,"endTime":2959.305,"body":"whole challenge decrypt process, I"},{"startTime":2959.305,"endTime":2960.625,"body":"think locally as well there, but,"},{"startTime":2961.575,"endTime":2962.235,"body":"that's, really cool."},{"startTime":2962.415,"endTime":2966.585,"body":"'cause I hadn't heard of like, the"},{"startTime":2962.415,"endTime":2966.585,"body":"only, the only systems that I heard of"},{"startTime":2966.585,"endTime":2968.535,"body":"was like, like the Swiss Post one and"},{"startTime":2968.672,"endTime":2969.092,"body":"mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2969.285,"endTime":2971.385,"body":"which is like, we have the whole thing and"},{"startTime":2971.502,"endTime":2971.922,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2972.285,"endTime":2975.585,"body":"the value of that, but also"},{"startTime":2972.285,"endTime":2975.585,"body":"it's like, it's like a big thing"},{"startTime":2975.585,"endTime":2977.985,"body":"that you have to take on if you"},{"startTime":2975.585,"endTime":2977.985,"body":"decide you wanna support that."},{"startTime":2978.225,"endTime":2981.705,"body":"So having kind of like the SDK"},{"startTime":2978.225,"endTime":2981.705,"body":"version, that's really cool."},{"startTime":2981.905,"endTime":2984.965,"body":"Yeah, it lets the cryptographers"},{"startTime":2981.905,"endTime":2984.965,"body":"focus on what they're good at and"},{"startTime":2984.965,"endTime":2988.235,"body":"it lets like human factors, people"},{"startTime":2984.965,"endTime":2988.235,"body":"or you know, hardware engineers or"},{"startTime":2988.235,"endTime":2989.765,"body":"whoever focus on what they're good at."},{"startTime":2990.125,"endTime":2992.645,"body":"And I think that was a really important"},{"startTime":2990.125,"endTime":2992.645,"body":"lesson that came out of like the star vote"},{"startTime":2992.645,"endTime":2997.715,"body":"project, which Josh Nellow was one of the"},{"startTime":2992.645,"endTime":2997.715,"body":"cryptographers on, and he is the driving"},{"startTime":2997.715,"endTime":2999.455,"body":"force behind Election Guard as well."},{"startTime":2999.785,"endTime":3003.175,"body":"Uh, realizing that, you know, voting"},{"startTime":2999.785,"endTime":3003.175,"body":"systems are really, really complicated and"},{"startTime":3003.175,"endTime":3006.775,"body":"trying to do all of it at once is maybe"},{"startTime":3003.175,"endTime":3006.775,"body":"not the right approach to get started."},{"startTime":3007.275,"endTime":3007.785,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":3007.935,"endTime":3008.775,"body":"This is really cool."},{"startTime":3009.075,"endTime":3011.925,"body":"And I'm looking, I'm looking"},{"startTime":3009.075,"endTime":3011.925,"body":"at that you even support rank"},{"startTime":3011.925,"endTime":3014.132,"body":"choice cha rank choice voting"},{"startTime":3014.432,"endTime":3014.852,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3015.255,"endTime":3017.265,"body":"uh, all the risk limiting"},{"startTime":3015.255,"endTime":3017.265,"body":"audits and stuff like that."},{"startTime":3017.685,"endTime":3024.075,"body":"Um, can we, can we, not to to completely"},{"startTime":3017.685,"endTime":3024.075,"body":"go off of, um, you know, Election Guard"},{"startTime":3024.075,"endTime":3028.775,"body":"and things like that, but, um, can we at"},{"startTime":3024.075,"endTime":3028.775,"body":"least talk about how, if there's anything"},{"startTime":3028.775,"endTime":3032.365,"body":"in cryptography, you have to get a quote"},{"startTime":3028.775,"endTime":3032.365,"body":"from Ron Rivest and you and the New"},{"startTime":3032.365,"endTime":3034.055,"body":"York Times got a little nice quote from"},{"startTime":3034.055,"endTime":3034.605,"body":"Ron Rivest,"},{"startTime":3034.875,"endTime":3037.185,"body":"um, and he was very nice about it, but."},{"startTime":3037.685,"endTime":3040.925,"body":"Ron Rivest, like Ron"},{"startTime":3037.685,"endTime":3040.925,"body":"Rivest is the r and RSA."},{"startTime":3040.925,"endTime":3044.735,"body":"So if you, if, if anyone knows anything"},{"startTime":3040.925,"endTime":3044.735,"body":"about cryptography, they've probably"},{"startTime":3044.735,"endTime":3049.685,"body":"heard about RSA and Ron Rivest is"},{"startTime":3044.735,"endTime":3049.685,"body":"the one, is the RSA is the r and RSA."},{"startTime":3050.135,"endTime":3054.755,"body":"Uh, in his like later academic"},{"startTime":3050.135,"endTime":3054.755,"body":"career, he basically has switched to"},{"startTime":3054.815,"endTime":3058.025,"body":"secure voting and verifiable voting."},{"startTime":3058.385,"endTime":3063.245,"body":"And I remember when I was getting into"},{"startTime":3058.385,"endTime":3063.245,"body":"cryptography, like in 2015 or so or"},{"startTime":3063.245,"endTime":3066.185,"body":"whatever, I went to go see a talk by Ron"},{"startTime":3066.185,"endTime":3066.585,"body":"Rivest"},{"startTime":3066.605,"endTime":3072.145,"body":"and he's just talking about risk"},{"startTime":3066.605,"endTime":3072.145,"body":"limiting audits of paper ballots time."},{"startTime":3072.295,"endTime":3075.235,"body":"And he's not talking about any"},{"startTime":3072.295,"endTime":3075.235,"body":"math or any cryptography at all."},{"startTime":3075.235,"endTime":3076.675,"body":"I'm like at the very end he kind of"},{"startTime":3076.737,"endTime":3077.337,"body":"I have to show my."},{"startTime":3078.077,"endTime":3082.007,"body":"jar of 10 sided dice that are used"},{"startTime":3078.077,"endTime":3082.007,"body":"for risk menting audit, um, because"},{"startTime":3082.007,"endTime":3084.227,"body":"you use a random number generator"},{"startTime":3082.007,"endTime":3084.227,"body":"to draw the ballots, you have to"},{"startTime":3084.227,"endTime":3086.837,"body":"generate a random seed as input, so,"},{"startTime":3087.15,"endTime":3088.32,"body":"Oh my God, I love that so much."},{"startTime":3088.32,"endTime":3091.38,"body":"And even for that, you're using,"},{"startTime":3088.32,"endTime":3091.38,"body":"you're just using a jar of"},{"startTime":3091.577,"endTime":3091.817,"body":"yep,"},{"startTime":3091.985,"endTime":3095.64,"body":"of, of, and not even like"},{"startTime":3091.985,"endTime":3095.64,"body":"a computer based seed."},{"startTime":3096.107,"endTime":3096.377,"body":"yep."},{"startTime":3096.84,"endTime":3102.31,"body":"like what do you think about like"},{"startTime":3096.84,"endTime":3102.31,"body":"like I completely, at this point in my"},{"startTime":3102.31,"endTime":3106.3,"body":"career, I completely am just like, yeah,"},{"startTime":3102.31,"endTime":3106.3,"body":"let's, like, as much as possible, like"},{"startTime":3106.3,"endTime":3108.9,"body":"try to like collapse down to paper."},{"startTime":3108.93,"endTime":3113.61,"body":"Like maybe you have to like fax in a p"},{"startTime":3108.93,"endTime":3113.61,"body":"like whatever your ballot from overseas,"},{"startTime":3113.61,"endTime":3117.18,"body":"maybe you have to have, some of it"},{"startTime":3113.61,"endTime":3117.18,"body":"is, you know, via systems powered by"},{"startTime":3117.18,"endTime":3118.74,"body":"Election Guard or something like that."},{"startTime":3118.74,"endTime":3122.46,"body":"But like at the end of the day, you're,"},{"startTime":3118.74,"endTime":3122.46,"body":"you know, you're pulling everything down"},{"startTime":3122.46,"endTime":3127.29,"body":"to paper and then you have, you have your"},{"startTime":3122.46,"endTime":3127.29,"body":"paper record and you have like automatic"},{"startTime":3127.29,"endTime":3129.09,"body":"risk limiting audits and things like that."},{"startTime":3129.45,"endTime":3131.58,"body":"What do you think about that sort of"},{"startTime":3131.777,"endTime":3132.257,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3132.317,"endTime":3132.66,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3132.742,"endTime":3132.952,"body":"It's,"},{"startTime":3132.96,"endTime":3133.59,"body":"in America?"},{"startTime":3133.62,"endTime":3133.74,"body":"'cause"},{"startTime":3133.892,"endTime":3134.182,"body":"it's."},{"startTime":3134.28,"endTime":3138.57,"body":"an American and so like, I'm thinking"},{"startTime":3134.28,"endTime":3138.57,"body":"about our extremely diverse voting"},{"startTime":3138.57,"endTime":3140.58,"body":"systems and, and all of that stuff."},{"startTime":3141.08,"endTime":3142.82,"body":"Yeah, I mean, simplicity Is king."},{"startTime":3142.85,"endTime":3144.17,"body":"I think wherever it can be."},{"startTime":3144.29,"endTime":3147.47,"body":"Um, the, you know, the, there"},{"startTime":3144.29,"endTime":3147.47,"body":"are too many challenges."},{"startTime":3147.89,"endTime":3150.08,"body":"I don't think we can get rid"},{"startTime":3147.89,"endTime":3150.08,"body":"of technology altogether."},{"startTime":3150.53,"endTime":3154.18,"body":"Um, like I said, know, if, if you"},{"startTime":3150.53,"endTime":3154.18,"body":"want to know how hard hand counting"},{"startTime":3154.18,"endTime":3157.18,"body":"is, go buy a ream of paper at Staples"},{"startTime":3154.18,"endTime":3157.18,"body":"and count how many sheets of paper"},{"startTime":3157.18,"endTime":3160.12,"body":"are in it and see if you get the same"},{"startTime":3157.18,"endTime":3160.12,"body":"number as the outside of the package."},{"startTime":3160.18,"endTime":3163.98,"body":"Um, you know, so I, I don't think"},{"startTime":3160.18,"endTime":3163.98,"body":"that's ever gonna be super viable."},{"startTime":3164.04,"endTime":3169.315,"body":"Um, but, you know, it, it's sort of,"},{"startTime":3164.04,"endTime":3169.315,"body":"this is another one of these problems"},{"startTime":3169.315,"endTime":3171.985,"body":"where there's like two really important"},{"startTime":3169.315,"endTime":3171.985,"body":"things, totally intention with each other."},{"startTime":3171.985,"endTime":3174.925,"body":"It's like the need to accommodate"},{"startTime":3171.985,"endTime":3174.925,"body":"every voter and the need to be,"},{"startTime":3175.405,"endTime":3176.965,"body":"uh, intelligible by anybody."},{"startTime":3177.355,"endTime":3180.655,"body":"Um, so like, you know, there will"},{"startTime":3177.355,"endTime":3180.655,"body":"always be blind voters who need"},{"startTime":3180.655,"endTime":3183.955,"body":"assistance filling out a ballot in"},{"startTime":3180.655,"endTime":3183.955,"body":"some capacity, whether it's a paper"},{"startTime":3183.955,"endTime":3187.255,"body":"ballot that they mark on a screen and"},{"startTime":3183.955,"endTime":3187.255,"body":"then it gets printed out, or, you know,"},{"startTime":3187.255,"endTime":3188.635,"body":"it's totally electronic, whatever."},{"startTime":3188.995,"endTime":3192.145,"body":"Um, it turns out if they print"},{"startTime":3188.995,"endTime":3192.145,"body":"it out, um, they're still blind,"},{"startTime":3192.145,"endTime":3192.84,"body":"so they can't read the paper."},{"startTime":3193.14,"endTime":3193.31,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3193.52,"endTime":3193.82,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3194.363,"endTime":3194.993,"body":"Awesome."},{"startTime":3195.353,"endTime":3195.773,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":3195.773,"endTime":3200.153,"body":"Did we, uh, did we miss anything fun"},{"startTime":3195.773,"endTime":3200.153,"body":"about the, uh, cryptographers not able to"},{"startTime":3200.153,"endTime":3206.063,"body":"run their fancy, or at least 2008 flavor"},{"startTime":3200.153,"endTime":3206.063,"body":"of fancy, uh, online voting election."},{"startTime":3206.363,"endTime":3209.843,"body":"we kind of, we kind of touched on"},{"startTime":3206.363,"endTime":3209.843,"body":"like voting is a very interesting,"},{"startTime":3209.843,"endTime":3211.793,"body":"it's a very social process."},{"startTime":3212.093,"endTime":3215.123,"body":"Um, and there's a lot of other,"},{"startTime":3212.093,"endTime":3215.123,"body":"there's a lot of other things that"},{"startTime":3215.123,"endTime":3218.993,"body":"we do online or do like extremely"},{"startTime":3215.123,"endTime":3218.993,"body":"assisted by technology that like."},{"startTime":3219.493,"endTime":3220.333,"body":"It's different."},{"startTime":3220.333,"endTime":3224.143,"body":"Like you, you wanna talk to your bank,"},{"startTime":3220.333,"endTime":3224.143,"body":"you wanna do banking online, like cool."},{"startTime":3224.143,"endTime":3228.903,"body":"That's between you and your bank making"},{"startTime":3224.143,"endTime":3228.903,"body":"recommendations, uh, of specific,"},{"startTime":3228.993,"endTime":3233.133,"body":"you know, very, we have very powerful"},{"startTime":3228.993,"endTime":3233.133,"body":"cryptography and technology that"},{"startTime":3233.133,"endTime":3238.053,"body":"we can try to apply, but sometimes"},{"startTime":3233.133,"endTime":3238.053,"body":"that's not the important thing."},{"startTime":3238.053,"endTime":3241.353,"body":"It's all these other social"},{"startTime":3238.053,"endTime":3241.353,"body":"dynamics that matter a lot more"},{"startTime":3241.353,"endTime":3244.803,"body":"to trust, uh, in the system."},{"startTime":3245.163,"endTime":3249.183,"body":"So I can, I can both understand why"},{"startTime":3245.163,"endTime":3249.183,"body":"people recommend it and also just"},{"startTime":3249.183,"endTime":3252.013,"body":"sort of like, nah, nah, not, not yet."},{"startTime":3252.513,"endTime":3253.293,"body":"Maybe not yet."},{"startTime":3253.593,"endTime":3254.108,"body":"We miss anything?"},{"startTime":3254.608,"endTime":3260.118,"body":"Is there like a funnier thing for a group"},{"startTime":3254.608,"endTime":3260.118,"body":"of like scientists or specialists to"},{"startTime":3260.118,"endTime":3263.808,"body":"do besides like cryptographers lose key"},{"startTime":3260.118,"endTime":3263.808,"body":"and can't count election and like like"},{"startTime":3263.808,"endTime":3269.798,"body":"physicists get stuck in a dumb waiter Like"},{"startTime":3263.808,"endTime":3269.798,"body":"like can can we top this like chemists"},{"startTime":3269.798,"endTime":3272.678,"body":"like eat poison berries off of a bush Yeah"},{"startTime":3273.178,"endTime":3277.723,"body":"I mean, I, I, I feel like the, uh,"},{"startTime":3273.178,"endTime":3277.723,"body":"the demon core, uh, criticality"},{"startTime":3277.723,"endTime":3282.523,"body":"experiments, uh, when they were, they"},{"startTime":3277.723,"endTime":3282.523,"body":"had just started making nuclear weapons."},{"startTime":3282.583,"endTime":3286.183,"body":"Uh, and they're literally, they're"},{"startTime":3282.583,"endTime":3286.183,"body":"literally like twiddling two halves"},{"startTime":3286.183,"endTime":3290.413,"body":"of a plutonium sphere with like"},{"startTime":3286.183,"endTime":3290.413,"body":"a, like a flathead screwdriver."},{"startTime":3290.653,"endTime":3295.003,"body":"And like several people died"},{"startTime":3290.653,"endTime":3295.003,"body":"because someone went oopsie."},{"startTime":3295.423,"endTime":3301.033,"body":"And they, they have achieved criticality,"},{"startTime":3295.423,"endTime":3301.033,"body":"uh, of the nuclear core like twice."},{"startTime":3301.513,"endTime":3305.463,"body":"Um, feel like, I feel like"},{"startTime":3301.513,"endTime":3305.463,"body":"we can't really top that one,"},{"startTime":3305.963,"endTime":3306.503,"body":"Yeah"},{"startTime":3307.003,"endTime":3312.063,"body":"Matt, thank you very much for hopping on"},{"startTime":3307.003,"endTime":3312.063,"body":"with us to, to giggle about, cryptography,"},{"startTime":3312.123,"endTime":3315.693,"body":"uh, and, and nerds who can't handle"},{"startTime":3312.123,"endTime":3315.693,"body":"their own keys, because apparently"},{"startTime":3315.693,"endTime":3320.193,"body":"we're all human and handling keys and"},{"startTime":3315.693,"endTime":3320.193,"body":"things like that is still difficult"},{"startTime":3320.193,"endTime":3322.743,"body":"for real human cryptographers to do."},{"startTime":3322.993,"endTime":3324.838,"body":"Is pretty sure that anybody"},{"startTime":3322.993,"endTime":3324.838,"body":"could have gotten this right."},{"startTime":3325.338,"endTime":3327.228,"body":"Twitter is pretty sure that"},{"startTime":3325.338,"endTime":3327.228,"body":"anybody could have gotten this"},{"startTime":3327.368,"endTime":3330.038,"body":"Any Anybody to, yeah, anybody?"},{"startTime":3330.128,"endTime":3330.848,"body":"Yeah, sure."},{"startTime":3330.853,"endTime":3331.163,"body":"Yeah, Yeah"},{"startTime":3331.168,"endTime":3331.328,"body":"Yeah"},{"startTime":3331.828,"endTime":3332.158,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":3332.658,"endTime":3334.398,"body":"No not, not yet."},{"startTime":3334.398,"endTime":3338.508,"body":"Maybe we'll make it a little easier"},{"startTime":3334.398,"endTime":3338.508,"body":"with threshold, but still we have to"},{"startTime":3338.508,"endTime":3340.458,"body":"figure out how to distribute the keys."},{"startTime":3340.849,"endTime":3345.229,"body":"no no no no no no no No No one"},{"startTime":3340.849,"endTime":3345.229,"body":"has ever made anything easier by"},{"startTime":3345.229,"endTime":3347.689,"body":"introducing threshold cryptography"},{"startTime":3348.601,"endTime":3349.111,"body":"maybe."},{"startTime":3349.143,"endTime":3353.703,"body":"have at best made something possible"},{"startTime":3349.143,"endTime":3353.703,"body":"but you haven't made anything easier"},{"startTime":3354.203,"endTime":3355.349,"body":"I, yes."},{"startTime":3355.649,"endTime":3359.699,"body":"Never has taken an existing thing and been"},{"startTime":3355.649,"endTime":3359.699,"body":"like you know what would make this easier"},{"startTime":3360.013,"endTime":3360.793,"body":"Well, I would"},{"startTime":3361.139,"endTime":3363.299,"body":"Some groups and more people"},{"startTime":3363.403,"endTime":3364.063,"body":"argue."},{"startTime":3364.311,"endTime":3364.731,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3364.731,"endTime":3368.151,"body":"And then yes, because literally it"},{"startTime":3364.731,"endTime":3368.151,"body":"goes from this failure mode, which"},{"startTime":3368.151,"endTime":3372.831,"body":"is if one of one of them is lost,"},{"startTime":3368.151,"endTime":3372.831,"body":"everything's fucked to, if one of them"},{"startTime":3372.831,"endTime":3374.811,"body":"is lost, not everything is fucked."},{"startTime":3374.811,"endTime":3376.791,"body":"But if two of them are"},{"startTime":3374.811,"endTime":3376.791,"body":"lost, everything's fucked."},{"startTime":3377.121,"endTime":3379.431,"body":"And then you have to do all the"},{"startTime":3377.121,"endTime":3379.431,"body":"other stuff of distributing the sh"},{"startTime":3379.461,"endTime":3380.781,"body":"the key shares in the first place."},{"startTime":3381.111,"endTime":3382.871,"body":"So anyway, thank you, Matt."},{"startTime":3382.931,"endTime":3385.841,"body":"Um, security at Cryptography, whatever"},{"startTime":3382.931,"endTime":3385.841,"body":"is a side project from Dear De"},{"startTime":3385.841,"endTime":3387.791,"body":"Cony, Thomas Tak and David Adrian."},{"startTime":3387.821,"endTime":3389.111,"body":"Our editor is Ne Smith."},{"startTime":3389.231,"endTime":3392.941,"body":"You can find the podcast online at e"},{"startTime":3389.231,"endTime":3392.941,"body":"and the host online at at Durham Crust"},{"startTime":3392.941,"endTime":3395.191,"body":"alone, at T QB F, and at David z Adrian."},{"startTime":3395.221,"endTime":3398.491,"body":"You can buy merch online at"},{"startTime":3395.221,"endTime":3398.491,"body":"merch@securitycryptographywhatever.com."},{"startTime":3398.761,"endTime":3401.221,"body":"If you like the pod, give us a"},{"startTime":3398.761,"endTime":3401.221,"body":"five star review wherever you"},{"startTime":3401.221,"endTime":3402.481,"body":"rate your favorite podcasts."},{"startTime":3402.721,"endTime":3403.501,"body":"Thank you for listening."}]}