{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.15,"body":"Either the most interesting"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.15,"body":"time in the history of InfoSec"},{"startTime":3.179,"endTime":5.789,"body":"or the second most interesting"},{"startTime":3.179,"endTime":5.789,"body":"after their arrival of the"},{"startTime":5.978,"endTime":6.148,"body":"West,"},{"startTime":14.737,"endTime":15.367,"body":"Hello."},{"startTime":15.367,"endTime":17.587,"body":"Welcome to Security"},{"startTime":15.367,"endTime":17.587,"body":"Cryptography, whatever."},{"startTime":17.647,"endTime":18.067,"body":"I'm Deirdre."},{"startTime":18.75,"endTime":19.62,"body":"I'm David."},{"startTime":20.54,"endTime":21.32,"body":"Thomas."},{"startTime":21.72,"endTime":21.87,"body":"and"},{"startTime":22.01,"endTime":22.82,"body":"And I'm Michael."},{"startTime":22.85,"endTime":23.45,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":24.44,"endTime":24.92,"body":"Sorry,"},{"startTime":25.22,"endTime":25.74,"body":"that's 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Polish"},{"startTime":64.718,"endTime":67.538,"body":"pronunciation is miky,"},{"startTime":67.538,"endTime":70.058,"body":"but I, I usually just"},{"startTime":67.538,"endTime":70.058,"body":"go by Michael and, yeah."},{"startTime":70.522,"endTime":71.062,"body":"Oh my God."},{"startTime":71.062,"endTime":72.412,"body":"I pronounced the w wrong cwe."},{"startTime":72.472,"endTime":74.392,"body":"Nevermind you, you're,"},{"startTime":72.472,"endTime":74.392,"body":"you're justified."},{"startTime":74.392,"endTime":75.832,"body":"I'm, I'm just as"},{"startTime":74.392,"endTime":75.832,"body":"wrong as you are"},{"startTime":75.92,"endTime":78.62,"body":"is, this is, this is the most"},{"startTime":75.92,"endTime":78.62,"body":"disappointing podcast I have,"},{"startTime":78.68,"endTime":80.87,"body":"you know, ever done in my life,"},{"startTime":81.298,"endTime":82.498,"body":"we'll get so much worse."},{"startTime":82.504,"endTime":83.524,"body":"Don't worry, 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on"},{"startTime":137.608,"endTime":140.608,"body":"Hacker News is that anytime"},{"startTime":137.608,"endTime":140.608,"body":"a story, um, from one of the"},{"startTime":140.608,"endTime":144.418,"body":"Frontier Labs comes up, um,"},{"startTime":140.608,"endTime":144.418,"body":"like three people always say"},{"startTime":144.478,"endTime":146.128,"body":"Fuzz at all this stuff already."},{"startTime":147.028,"endTime":149.758,"body":"And like the problem is that"},{"startTime":147.028,"endTime":149.758,"body":"Google isn't running Fs or"},{"startTime":149.758,"endTime":151.052,"body":"Apple isn't running Fs or"},{"startTime":151.352,"endTime":151.712,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":152.338,"endTime":156.538,"body":"uh, yeah, so you're the author"},{"startTime":152.338,"endTime":156.538,"body":"of American Fuzzy Lop A FL,"},{"startTime":156.538,"endTime":160.348,"body":"which is like the defacto"},{"startTime":156.538,"endTime":160.348,"body":"standard tool in that 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and,"},{"startTime":184.618,"endTime":187.678,"body":"and it's been like that for a,"},{"startTime":187.678,"endTime":189.028,"body":"for a, for a long time, right?"},{"startTime":189.028,"endTime":191.608,"body":"If, if you look at the"},{"startTime":189.028,"endTime":191.608,"body":"browser space, I would wager"},{"startTime":191.608,"endTime":196.018,"body":"that 80 or 90% of what's"},{"startTime":191.608,"endTime":196.018,"body":"actually found and fixed is"},{"startTime":196.018,"endTime":197.398,"body":"a product of automated tools."},{"startTime":198.208,"endTime":198.928,"body":"At the same"},{"startTime":199.228,"endTime":199.948,"body":"time, you know,"},{"startTime":200.848,"endTime":207.118,"body":"though it is automated, you"},{"startTime":200.848,"endTime":207.118,"body":"can have dramatic sort of,"},{"startTime":207.118,"endTime":210.478,"body":"you know, step improvements"},{"startTime":207.118,"endTime":210.478,"body":"or, or sort of, you know, 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circle."},{"startTime":227.218,"endTime":227.518,"body":"But,"},{"startTime":227.818,"endTime":228.148,"body":"um,"},{"startTime":229.198,"endTime":232.078,"body":"but at the same time, I"},{"startTime":229.198,"endTime":232.078,"body":"do have fairly, you know,"},{"startTime":232.108,"endTime":234.148,"body":"complex thoughts about the."},{"startTime":235.13,"endTime":237.56,"body":"Impact of the, of the"},{"startTime":235.13,"endTime":237.56,"body":"AI angle specifically."},{"startTime":237.56,"endTime":239.861,"body":"And I can sort of, you"},{"startTime":237.56,"endTime":239.861,"body":"know, get into that now,"},{"startTime":240.161,"endTime":240.946,"body":"are, are we gonna,"},{"startTime":241.37,"endTime":242.93,"body":"get there more gradually."},{"startTime":243.89,"endTime":245.96,"body":"but yeah, sort of, you know,"},{"startTime":243.89,"endTime":245.96,"body":"to to, to directly answer"},{"startTime":245.96,"endTime":248.18,"body":"your question, I think"},{"startTime":245.96,"endTime":248.18,"body":"this is, this is a very"},{"startTime":248.18,"endTime":249.32,"body":"interesting time to be in."},{"startTime":249.32,"endTime":253.01,"body":"I think we are seeing a"},{"startTime":249.32,"endTime":253.01,"body":"very fundamental shift."},{"startTime":253.04,"endTime":254.33,"body":"The technology is real."},{"startTime":254.36,"endTime":257.42,"body":"Real, it's amazing, and"},{"startTime":254.36,"endTime":257.42,"body":"you should be using it as"},{"startTime":257.42,"endTime":258.44,"body":"a part of your workflow."},{"startTime":258.59,"endTime":259.295,"body":"I think that's the bottom line."},{"startTime":261.952,"endTime":265.762,"body":"Yeah, so I think the, the,"},{"startTime":261.952,"endTime":265.762,"body":"the first thing I wanna like."},{"startTime":267.36,"endTime":271.2,"body":"I have like my own personal"},{"startTime":267.36,"endTime":271.2,"body":"experience using like, kind"},{"startTime":271.2,"endTime":274.26,"body":"of fuz arrangements of various"},{"startTime":271.2,"endTime":274.26,"body":"kinds to do projects, but"},{"startTime":274.65,"endTime":278.79,"body":"I've never done the, like"},{"startTime":274.65,"endTime":278.79,"body":"the at scale work that like,"},{"startTime":278.79,"endTime":281.7,"body":"you know, Google did in like"},{"startTime":278.79,"endTime":281.7,"body":"the 2010s, um, you know,"},{"startTime":281.7,"endTime":284.97,"body":"so like large farms full"},{"startTime":281.7,"endTime":284.97,"body":"of things doing, you know,"},{"startTime":284.97,"endTime":287.82,"body":"profile guided, you know, a FL"},{"startTime":284.97,"endTime":287.82,"body":"coverage and all that, right?"},{"startTime":287.82,"endTime":291.72,"body":"So I have a mental model of"},{"startTime":287.82,"endTime":291.72,"body":"like fers as tools of like,"},{"startTime":291.81,"endTime":294.3,"body":"they're like literally things"},{"startTime":291.81,"endTime":294.3,"body":"that I would build as like shop"},{"startTime":294.3,"endTime":297.48,"body":"tools, um, to get like, you"},{"startTime":294.3,"endTime":297.48,"body":"know, individual projects done."},{"startTime":297.81,"endTime":301.05,"body":"Um, but like of these, like"},{"startTime":297.81,"endTime":301.05,"body":"one of the worries I always"},{"startTime":301.05,"endTime":303.96,"body":"have when people say like,"},{"startTime":301.05,"endTime":303.96,"body":"FERS, that all this stuff"},{"startTime":303.96,"endTime":307.5,"body":"is like my, um, like my"},{"startTime":303.96,"endTime":307.5,"body":"advanced fuzzer knowledge"},{"startTime":307.5,"endTime":308.67,"body":"is not all that up to date."},{"startTime":308.67,"endTime":311.76,"body":"I understand exactly what the"},{"startTime":308.67,"endTime":311.76,"body":"tools are doing, but like the"},{"startTime":311.76,"endTime":314.04,"body":"difference between that 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it's"},{"startTime":327.944,"endTime":330.644,"body":"probably gonna be wrong,"},{"startTime":330.644,"endTime":331.454,"body":"but I'll make it anyways."},{"startTime":331.454,"endTime":332.774,"body":"It's just so that you can"},{"startTime":331.454,"endTime":332.774,"body":"tell me that I'm wrong."},{"startTime":332.774,"endTime":333.134,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":333.464,"endTime":337.574,"body":"Um, my like experience of"},{"startTime":333.464,"endTime":337.574,"body":"this is that Fs are a really"},{"startTime":337.574,"endTime":343.454,"body":"good way of getting a, a"},{"startTime":337.574,"endTime":343.454,"body":"pile of, you know, variably"},{"startTime":343.694,"endTime":347.324,"body":"quantified or variably"},{"startTime":343.694,"endTime":347.324,"body":"qualified crashes in programs."},{"startTime":347.324,"endTime":347.744,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":347.984,"endTime":351.314,"body":"Um, and that like people that"},{"startTime":347.984,"endTime":351.314,"body":"run large scale fuzzing, um,"},{"startTime":351.464,"endTime":353.954,"body":"you know, quickly get adept at,"},{"startTime":351.464,"endTime":353.954,"body":"you know, building mountains"},{"startTime":353.954,"endTime":355.574,"body":"and mountains of crashes."},{"startTime":355.844,"endTime":358.154,"body":"Um, and in those crashes I"},{"startTime":355.844,"endTime":358.154,"body":"think there's like a general"},{"startTime":358.154,"endTime":361.274,"body":"understanding that there are"},{"startTime":358.154,"endTime":361.274,"body":"vulnerabilities, but the work is"},{"startTime":361.274,"endTime":364.934,"body":"going from that pile of crashers"},{"startTime":361.274,"endTime":364.934,"body":"to actual vulnerabilities."},{"startTime":365.114,"endTime":366.764,"body":"And if you're not doing that"},{"startTime":365.114,"endTime":366.764,"body":"work, you're not actually"},{"startTime":366.764,"endTime":367.634,"body":"solving the problem."},{"startTime":367.808,"endTime":371.138,"body":"Yeah, I think, you know,"},{"startTime":367.808,"endTime":371.138,"body":"a large portion of, of, of"},{"startTime":371.198,"endTime":373.538,"body":"running furthers at a scale"},{"startTime":371.198,"endTime":373.538,"body":"and actually getting pulmonary"},{"startTime":373.538,"endTime":377.588,"body":"diabetes fixed is the automation"},{"startTime":373.538,"endTime":377.588,"body":"around the actual sort of,"},{"startTime":377.588,"endTime":378.848,"body":"you know, permutation engine."},{"startTime":378.848,"endTime":379.118,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":379.118,"endTime":379.598,"body":"Like, it's how you."},{"startTime":380.544,"endTime":382.824,"body":"Uh, how you get projects on"},{"startTime":380.544,"endTime":382.824,"body":"board in the first place."},{"startTime":382.824,"endTime":386.124,"body":"That's a, you know, a major"},{"startTime":382.824,"endTime":386.124,"body":"bottleneck for, for open 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have to."},{"startTime":429.824,"endTime":430.707,"body":"Work with"},{"startTime":431.007,"endTime":431.227,"body":"to,"},{"startTime":431.527,"endTime":433.784,"body":"to, actually make"},{"startTime":431.527,"endTime":433.784,"body":"sure get fixed."},{"startTime":433.904,"endTime":435.914,"body":"So I think it was always"},{"startTime":433.904,"endTime":435.914,"body":"bottleneck, profiling."},{"startTime":436.214,"endTime":438.794,"body":"Not all of this goes"},{"startTime":436.214,"endTime":438.794,"body":"away with agents."},{"startTime":438.854,"endTime":442.184,"body":"I think interactions"},{"startTime":438.854,"endTime":442.184,"body":"with open source"},{"startTime":442.184,"endTime":443.949,"body":"developers continue to be."},{"startTime":445.408,"endTime":450.298,"body":"A very challenging touch"},{"startTime":445.408,"endTime":450.298,"body":"point that you can't really"},{"startTime":450.298,"endTime":453.208,"body":"automate with, with an LLM"},{"startTime":450.298,"endTime":453.208,"body":"and expect good results."},{"startTime":453.4,"endTime":453.508,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":453.61,"endTime":453.91,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":454.858,"endTime":458.668,"body":"yeah, I think, like, again,"},{"startTime":454.858,"endTime":458.668,"body":"I, I think, uh, the way I've,"},{"startTime":458.668,"endTime":461.608,"body":"I've been describing this,"},{"startTime":458.668,"endTime":461.608,"body":"and that goes way beyond"},{"startTime":461.608,"endTime":465.598,"body":"vulnerability research, is"},{"startTime":461.608,"endTime":465.598,"body":"that, you know, most of problems"},{"startTime":465.598,"endTime":468.478,"body":"really boil down to text"},{"startTime":465.598,"endTime":468.478,"body":"comprehension at a scale, but"},{"startTime":468.478,"endTime":469.918,"body":"then faces on scale, right?"},{"startTime":469.918,"endTime":473.458,"body":"Like, we never have enough"},{"startTime":469.918,"endTime":473.458,"body":"resources to actually at"},{"startTime":473.458,"endTime":477.118,"body":"every event generated by an"},{"startTime":473.458,"endTime":477.118,"body":"enterprise, you know, detection"},{"startTime":477.148,"endTime":481.738,"body":"pipeline or to sort of, you"},{"startTime":477.148,"endTime":481.738,"body":"know, look at every line of"},{"startTime":481.908,"endTime":482.443,"body":"code that"},{"startTime":482.743,"endTime":483.868,"body":"that's, that's being written."},{"startTime":483.868,"endTime":487.828,"body":"And I think LLMs really"},{"startTime":483.868,"endTime":487.828,"body":"profoundly changed the"},{"startTime":487.828,"endTime":489.388,"body":"game on a number of fronts,"},{"startTime":489.688,"endTime":489.836,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":491.104,"endTime":493.594,"body":"Let me, like, let me try"},{"startTime":491.104,"endTime":493.594,"body":"really quickly, just like,"},{"startTime":493.864,"endTime":495.034,"body":"I mean two things, right?"},{"startTime":495.034,"endTime":496.324,"body":"First of all,"},{"startTime":495.034,"endTime":496.324,"body":"cards on the table."},{"startTime":496.324,"endTime":501.994,"body":"My interest in all of this stuff"},{"startTime":496.324,"endTime":501.994,"body":"is, um, like almost purely on"},{"startTime":502.294,"endTime":503.974,"body":"the capability side, right?"},{"startTime":503.974,"endTime":506.674,"body":"Like what vulnerabilities"},{"startTime":503.974,"endTime":506.674,"body":"are we finding is a much more"},{"startTime":506.674,"endTime":510.004,"body":"interesting question to me than"},{"startTime":506.674,"endTime":510.004,"body":"how, um, how this works as an"},{"startTime":510.034,"endTime":511.654,"body":"engineering process, right?"},{"startTime":511.654,"endTime":514.084,"body":"Like how we solve the open"},{"startTime":511.654,"endTime":514.084,"body":"source, metabolizing these"},{"startTime":514.084,"endTime":514.864,"body":"things, all that stuff."},{"startTime":514.864,"endTime":517.654,"body":"Those are really important and"},{"startTime":514.864,"endTime":517.654,"body":"valid problems that I have."},{"startTime":518.88,"endTime":519.81,"body":"Passing interest in."},{"startTime":519.84,"endTime":520.47,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":520.53,"endTime":523.41,"body":"But like, I'm, I'm really"},{"startTime":520.53,"endTime":523.41,"body":"focused on like the raw"},{"startTime":523.41,"endTime":524.52,"body":"capability side of it."},{"startTime":524.52,"endTime":524.88,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":525.09,"endTime":528.75,"body":"And then like with respect to"},{"startTime":525.09,"endTime":528.75,"body":"how fuzz of have traditionally"},{"startTime":528.75,"endTime":531.24,"body":"worked, I have like a"},{"startTime":528.75,"endTime":531.24,"body":"radicalizing moment a couple"},{"startTime":531.24,"endTime":533.34,"body":"years ago, like maybe a year"},{"startTime":531.24,"endTime":533.34,"body":"and a half ago, where like,"},{"startTime":533.58,"endTime":539.79,"body":"um, an engineer in our team,"},{"startTime":533.58,"endTime":539.79,"body":"um, who, uh, is amazing, um,"},{"startTime":540.63,"endTime":543.72,"body":"once a week he was finding"},{"startTime":540.63,"endTime":543.72,"body":"game over vulnerabilities"},{"startTime":543.72,"endTime":546.0,"body":"in our platform and like,"},{"startTime":543.72,"endTime":546.0,"body":"you know, resolving them."},{"startTime":546.0,"endTime":548.52,"body":"And one of them was, um,"},{"startTime":546.0,"endTime":548.52,"body":"this wasn't a game over"},{"startTime":548.52,"endTime":550.53,"body":"vulnerability, but it was"},{"startTime":548.52,"endTime":550.53,"body":"a really good concern that"},{"startTime":550.53,"endTime":551.37,"body":"we hadn't thought about."},{"startTime":551.61,"endTime":553.98,"body":"We, we run farms of"},{"startTime":551.61,"endTime":553.98,"body":"virtual machines for our"},{"startTime":553.98,"endTime":556.05,"body":"customers, multi-tenant"},{"startTime":553.98,"endTime":556.05,"body":"on the same hardware."},{"startTime":556.12,"endTime":556.39,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":556.8,"endTime":561.33,"body":"um, at, at, at in, in some"},{"startTime":556.8,"endTime":561.33,"body":"corner of our system, we were"},{"startTime":561.33,"endTime":566.16,"body":"doing file system maintenance,"},{"startTime":561.33,"endTime":566.16,"body":"um, for VMs on the host side."},{"startTime":566.34,"endTime":568.47,"body":"So like we do like file"},{"startTime":566.34,"endTime":568.47,"body":"system repair before backup"},{"startTime":568.47,"endTime":569.13,"body":"or something like that."},{"startTime":569.13,"endTime":569.91,"body":"It was like, whatever."},{"startTime":570.768,"endTime":573.468,"body":"current equivalent of F disc is"},{"startTime":570.768,"endTime":573.468,"body":"or whatever, but we'd run that."},{"startTime":573.738,"endTime":576.438,"body":"Um, on the host side, he's"},{"startTime":573.738,"endTime":576.438,"body":"like, well, you know, the"},{"startTime":576.438,"endTime":578.448,"body":"file system obviously is"},{"startTime":576.438,"endTime":578.448,"body":"controlled on the guest side,"},{"startTime":578.448,"endTime":582.078,"body":"so you now you're exposed to"},{"startTime":578.448,"endTime":582.078,"body":"the entire kernel surface for"},{"startTime":582.078,"endTime":583.308,"body":"whatever this file system is."},{"startTime":583.308,"endTime":584.298,"body":"That's a really good find."},{"startTime":584.298,"endTime":585.678,"body":"We, we solved that"},{"startTime":584.298,"endTime":585.678,"body":"pretty quickly."},{"startTime":585.978,"endTime":588.858,"body":"Um, but like we're,"},{"startTime":585.978,"endTime":588.858,"body":"trying to figure out how"},{"startTime":588.858,"endTime":589.728,"body":"big of a deal it was."},{"startTime":589.758,"endTime":592.278,"body":"He's like, I'm just gonna go to"},{"startTime":589.758,"endTime":592.278,"body":"SIDH collar and find Crashers"},{"startTime":592.278,"endTime":592.938,"body":"and run them through it."},{"startTime":592.938,"endTime":594.858,"body":"And like there were"},{"startTime":592.938,"endTime":594.858,"body":"crashes for it."},{"startTime":594.858,"endTime":599.988,"body":"Like he was immediately able to"},{"startTime":594.858,"endTime":599.988,"body":"repro, um, you know, don't, you"},{"startTime":599.988,"endTime":602.328,"body":"know, you can't call it a memory"},{"startTime":599.988,"endTime":602.328,"body":"corruption vulnerability just"},{"startTime":602.328,"endTime":603.468,"body":"'cause it panics or whatever."},{"startTime":603.708,"endTime":606.228,"body":"But like, you know, things"},{"startTime":603.708,"endTime":606.228,"body":"where if we had found them"},{"startTime":606.228,"endTime":607.968,"body":"ourselves, we would've"},{"startTime":606.228,"endTime":607.968,"body":"gone and investigated them."},{"startTime":607.968,"endTime":610.818,"body":"And like I have now this"},{"startTime":607.968,"endTime":610.818,"body":"perception that there is just"},{"startTime":610.818,"endTime":613.488,"body":"a mountain of his collar things"},{"startTime":610.818,"endTime":613.488,"body":"that are just sitting there"},{"startTime":613.548,"endTime":614.448,"body":"and like, somebody should"},{"startTime":614.978,"endTime":615.428,"body":"my dad's."},{"startTime":615.738,"endTime":617.718,"body":"But like, are they"},{"startTime":615.738,"endTime":617.718,"body":"vulnerabilities or are"},{"startTime":617.718,"endTime":618.918,"body":"they not vulnerabilities?"},{"startTime":619.758,"endTime":619.878,"body":"know."},{"startTime":620.118,"endTime":621.738,"body":"We're in a state of"},{"startTime":620.118,"endTime":621.738,"body":"uncertainty about them."},{"startTime":621.768,"endTime":622.188,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":623.34,"endTime":623.52,"body":"no."},{"startTime":623.52,"endTime":625.23,"body":"So I, I think that's"},{"startTime":623.52,"endTime":625.23,"body":"a, that's a, like a"},{"startTime":625.23,"endTime":626.43,"body":"fundamental change, right?"},{"startTime":626.43,"endTime":631.47,"body":"And, and again, it doesn't"},{"startTime":626.43,"endTime":631.47,"body":"matter as much as people"},{"startTime":631.47,"endTime":634.92,"body":"sometimes claim, but I think it"},{"startTime":631.47,"endTime":634.92,"body":"does matter, especially if you"},{"startTime":634.92,"endTime":637.74,"body":"have like, you know, Heisenberg,"},{"startTime":634.92,"endTime":637.74,"body":"that you don't really, you"},{"startTime":637.74,"endTime":641.435,"body":"know, you can't immediately"},{"startTime":637.74,"endTime":641.435,"body":"decide what's causing this."},{"startTime":641.58,"endTime":643.53,"body":"It doesn't reproduce"},{"startTime":641.58,"endTime":643.53,"body":"consistently."},{"startTime":643.53,"endTime":646.62,"body":"It happens in a weird place"},{"startTime":643.53,"endTime":646.62,"body":"that maybe, you know, miles"},{"startTime":646.62,"endTime":648.12,"body":"away from the original fault."},{"startTime":649.08,"endTime":652.11,"body":"so look like, again, in terms"},{"startTime":649.08,"endTime":652.11,"body":"of technical capability and"},{"startTime":652.11,"endTime":657.84,"body":"how it the game for, for"},{"startTime":652.11,"endTime":657.84,"body":"InfoSec, I'm not actually"},{"startTime":657.84,"endTime":659.25,"body":"a contrarian at all, right?"},{"startTime":660.3,"endTime":664.62,"body":"my contrarian position"},{"startTime":660.3,"endTime":664.62,"body":"lies somewhere else."},{"startTime":666.3,"endTime":672.78,"body":"and it's, it has more to do"},{"startTime":666.3,"endTime":672.78,"body":"with how we as an industry think"},{"startTime":672.84,"endTime":675.3,"body":"about vulnerability research"},{"startTime":672.84,"endTime":675.3,"body":"in the first place, right?"},{"startTime":676.8,"endTime":677.31,"body":"And."},{"startTime":678.964,"endTime":682.144,"body":"I should say, like, I'm saying"},{"startTime":678.964,"endTime":682.144,"body":"that my interest is in X, Y,"},{"startTime":682.144,"endTime":684.994,"body":"Z, but like, I don't speak"},{"startTime":682.144,"endTime":684.994,"body":"for David, you or Deirdre."},{"startTime":685.204,"endTime":688.324,"body":"I think I'm a, I'm a weirdo in"},{"startTime":685.204,"endTime":688.324,"body":"this, in this one thing, right?"},{"startTime":688.324,"endTime":692.404,"body":"Like, I find vulnerability"},{"startTime":688.324,"endTime":692.404,"body":"research really very motivating,"},{"startTime":692.764,"endTime":695.464,"body":"um, as a reason to learn pretty"},{"startTime":692.764,"endTime":695.464,"body":"much everything I've learned"},{"startTime":695.464,"endTime":696.994,"body":"about technology and math."},{"startTime":697.084,"endTime":698.824,"body":"Um, but that's just me, right?"},{"startTime":698.824,"endTime":700.984,"body":"Like, I think you're"},{"startTime":698.824,"endTime":700.984,"body":"right to like, call"},{"startTime":700.984,"endTime":702.334,"body":"out the, the industry."},{"startTime":702.394,"endTime":703.954,"body":"You, you just said something"},{"startTime":702.394,"endTime":703.954,"body":"interesting that I've heard you"},{"startTime":703.954,"endTime":706.804,"body":"say before, which is just like,"},{"startTime":703.954,"endTime":706.804,"body":"um, how the industry kind of"},{"startTime":706.804,"endTime":708.154,"body":"looks at vulnerability research."},{"startTime":708.154,"endTime":711.544,"body":"And you've said in other places,"},{"startTime":708.154,"endTime":711.544,"body":"like, I get the impression"},{"startTime":711.544,"endTime":714.544,"body":"that you generally feel like"},{"startTime":711.544,"endTime":714.544,"body":"we way overvalue vulnerability"},{"startTime":714.544,"endTime":716.014,"body":"research as an intrinsic good."},{"startTime":717.612,"endTime":722.382,"body":"So, know, maybe let me answer"},{"startTime":717.612,"endTime":722.382,"body":"that in, in the form of a, of"},{"startTime":722.382,"endTime":726.372,"body":"a run and, and I'm, I'm, I'm"},{"startTime":722.382,"endTime":726.372,"body":"gonna get to like a very precise"},{"startTime":726.372,"endTime":728.082,"body":"AI related point on the line."},{"startTime":728.082,"endTime":733.512,"body":"But, uh, yeah, I, I, I I've"},{"startTime":728.082,"endTime":733.512,"body":"come to, you know, to test"},{"startTime":733.512,"endTime":736.182,"body":"InfoSec punditry on some"},{"startTime":733.512,"endTime":736.182,"body":"level because I think we, we"},{"startTime":736.182,"endTime":739.602,"body":"consistently get fixated on"},{"startTime":736.182,"endTime":739.602,"body":"things that are not really"},{"startTime":739.602,"endTime":743.172,"body":"representative of what actually"},{"startTime":739.602,"endTime":743.172,"body":"matters, uh, day to day."},{"startTime":743.172,"endTime":746.682,"body":"And, you know, you mentioned"},{"startTime":743.172,"endTime":746.682,"body":"Hacker News and I, I actually"},{"startTime":746.682,"endTime":749.262,"body":"checked Hacker News today"},{"startTime":746.682,"endTime":749.262,"body":"and there was someone talking"},{"startTime":749.262,"endTime":753.552,"body":"about how InfoSec sec, uh,"},{"startTime":749.262,"endTime":753.552,"body":"information security has already"},{"startTime":753.552,"endTime":756.822,"body":"ceased to exist as a field,"},{"startTime":753.552,"endTime":756.822,"body":"as a consequence of, you know,"},{"startTime":756.822,"endTime":758.442,"body":"AI vulnerability discovery."},{"startTime":759.912,"endTime":760.542,"body":"and, and I"},{"startTime":760.842,"endTime":762.392,"body":"That was not me for the record."},{"startTime":762.616,"endTime":764.612,"body":"me let me call my boss real"},{"startTime":762.616,"endTime":764.612,"body":"quick and let her know the"},{"startTime":764.612,"endTime":765.902,"body":"field doesn't exist anymore."},{"startTime":767.124,"endTime":769.554,"body":"so, you know, and, and, and,"},{"startTime":767.124,"endTime":769.554,"body":"and it's not just that I"},{"startTime":769.554,"endTime":770.844,"body":"think, you know, like, uh."},{"startTime":772.5,"endTime":775.29,"body":"when you think about what"},{"startTime":772.5,"endTime":775.29,"body":"arguably changed enterprise"},{"startTime":775.29,"endTime":778.08,"body":"security the most in the"},{"startTime":775.29,"endTime":778.08,"body":"past 15 years, it's not the"},{"startTime":778.08,"endTime":780.03,"body":"stuff that people present"},{"startTime":778.08,"endTime":780.03,"body":"at Black Hat or that we,"},{"startTime":780.03,"endTime":781.53,"body":"you know, sell at our RSA."},{"startTime":781.53,"endTime":783.81,"body":"It, it was the one thing"},{"startTime":781.53,"endTime":783.81,"body":"that we all love here."},{"startTime":783.81,"endTime":785.46,"body":"I think Bitcoin, right?"},{"startTime":785.46,"endTime":789.21,"body":"It used to be that ransomware"},{"startTime":785.46,"endTime":789.21,"body":"was this niche thing that"},{"startTime":789.21,"endTime":792.06,"body":"basically was constrained"},{"startTime":789.21,"endTime":792.06,"body":"by how much money you could"},{"startTime":792.06,"endTime":795.12,"body":"move through Western Union,"},{"startTime":792.06,"endTime":795.12,"body":"which was not a lot, right?"},{"startTime":795.33,"endTime":798.3,"body":"And now it's this like global"},{"startTime":795.33,"endTime":798.3,"body":"economic powerhouse that"},{"startTime":798.3,"endTime":801.45,"body":"funds hostile regimes and"},{"startTime":798.3,"endTime":801.45,"body":"really is the one thing that"},{"startTime":801.45,"endTime":803.19,"body":"keeps most CSOs up at night."},{"startTime":803.58,"endTime":806.1,"body":"And, you know, post quantum"},{"startTime":803.58,"endTime":806.1,"body":"cryptography doesn't I, I'm,"},{"startTime":806.1,"endTime":807.12,"body":"I'm sorry to say that, right?"},{"startTime":807.18,"endTime":809.49,"body":"And, and yeah."},{"startTime":809.58,"endTime":812.85,"body":"And, and so in, in my mind, you"},{"startTime":809.58,"endTime":812.85,"body":"know, the, the discourse around"},{"startTime":812.91,"endTime":816.72,"body":"AI vulnerability discovery kind"},{"startTime":812.91,"endTime":816.72,"body":"of fits that mold, although"},{"startTime":816.72,"endTime":819.75,"body":"not, again, not in the pe in"},{"startTime":816.72,"endTime":819.75,"body":"the way that many people claim."},{"startTime":819.81,"endTime":821.7,"body":"And, you know, ma, many"},{"startTime":819.81,"endTime":821.7,"body":"folks think that the"},{"startTime":821.7,"endTime":824.94,"body":"technology itself is hype"},{"startTime":821.7,"endTime":824.94,"body":"or, and, and it isn't, right?"},{"startTime":824.94,"endTime":826.56,"body":"Like, again, it's real,"},{"startTime":824.94,"endTime":826.56,"body":"it's impressive and"},{"startTime":826.56,"endTime":827.4,"body":"you should be using it."},{"startTime":828.69,"endTime":829.62,"body":"but, um."},{"startTime":829.908,"endTime":832.218,"body":"Uh, and, and, and again, as"},{"startTime":829.908,"endTime":832.218,"body":"I, as I mentioned, right,"},{"startTime":832.218,"endTime":835.218,"body":"I think most of security is"},{"startTime":832.218,"endTime":835.218,"body":"text comprehension at a scale."},{"startTime":835.308,"endTime":838.848,"body":"And now we have a, and,"},{"startTime":835.308,"endTime":838.848,"body":"and we were really severely"},{"startTime":838.848,"endTime":840.048,"body":"constrained by scale."},{"startTime":840.048,"endTime":842.718,"body":"And now we have a tool"},{"startTime":840.048,"endTime":842.718,"body":"that largely removes that"},{"startTime":842.718,"endTime":843.633,"body":"constraint, and that's."},{"startTime":844.532,"endTime":846.422,"body":"That's amazing, that's"},{"startTime":844.532,"endTime":846.422,"body":"transformative and it's"},{"startTime":846.422,"endTime":848.252,"body":"absolutely gonna change"},{"startTime":846.422,"endTime":848.252,"body":"the practice of InfoSec."},{"startTime":849.572,"endTime":852.722,"body":"but to get to, to my actual"},{"startTime":849.572,"endTime":852.722,"body":"point, I, I think, you know,"},{"startTime":852.722,"endTime":855.482,"body":"our industry has long overstated"},{"startTime":852.722,"endTime":855.482,"body":"the practical importance"},{"startTime":855.482,"endTime":856.712,"body":"of vulnerability 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you know, like"},{"startTime":875.072,"endTime":879.392,"body":"zero days were generally not"},{"startTime":879.452,"endTime":880.952,"body":"how enterprises get popped."},{"startTime":881.042,"endTime":884.222,"body":"And, and having five times"},{"startTime":881.042,"endTime":884.222,"body":"as many zero days or 50%"},{"startTime":884.222,"endTime":888.062,"body":"less doesn't really change"},{"startTime":884.222,"endTime":888.062,"body":"the nature of the game."},{"startTime":889.472,"endTime":891.632,"body":"and, and part of it is,"},{"startTime":889.472,"endTime":891.632,"body":"you know, sort of physical"},{"startTime":891.632,"endTime":892.892,"body":"constraints too, right?"},{"startTime":892.892,"endTime":895.082,"body":"Like the technology"},{"startTime":892.892,"endTime":895.082,"body":"is not magic."},{"startTime":895.082,"endTime":897.032,"body":"It doesn't give you an"},{"startTime":895.082,"endTime":897.032,"body":"endless play of, you know,"},{"startTime":897.032,"endTime":897.992,"body":"zero days in openness."},{"startTime":897.992,"endTime":898.892,"body":"SH for example."},{"startTime":899.682,"endTime":902.502,"body":"gives you some respectable"},{"startTime":899.682,"endTime":902.502,"body":"numbers of new findings in"},{"startTime":902.502,"endTime":906.282,"body":"software that was already"},{"startTime":902.502,"endTime":906.282,"body":"kind of busted and had"},{"startTime":906.282,"endTime":907.992,"body":"exploitable bugs every"},{"startTime":908.308,"endTime":908.668,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":909.14,"endTime":912.65,"body":"And, and, you know, and, and"},{"startTime":909.14,"endTime":912.65,"body":"that you probably have somewhere"},{"startTime":912.65,"endTime":916.31,"body":"in your enterprise in a version"},{"startTime":912.65,"endTime":916.31,"body":"that's five years behind, right?"},{"startTime":916.49,"endTime":919.31,"body":"So we, we were always kind"},{"startTime":916.49,"endTime":919.31,"body":"of operating in that reality"},{"startTime":919.37,"endTime":923.66,"body":"and, and we have far more"},{"startTime":919.37,"endTime":923.66,"body":"basic problems that we can't"},{"startTime":923.72,"endTime":927.47,"body":"quite solve or couldn't, you"},{"startTime":923.72,"endTime":927.47,"body":"know, inventory, patching"},{"startTime":927.47,"endTime":931.07,"body":"human behavior that are adding"},{"startTime":927.47,"endTime":931.07,"body":"up to a much larger and less"},{"startTime":931.07,"endTime":933.95,"body":"tractable attack surface that"},{"startTime":931.07,"endTime":933.95,"body":"actually keeps biting us in"},{"startTime":933.95,"endTime":935.06,"body":"the back over and over again."},{"startTime":936.02,"endTime":939.77,"body":"and this is actually where"},{"startTime":936.02,"endTime":939.77,"body":"LLMs are absolutely amazing and"},{"startTime":939.77,"endTime":943.25,"body":"are gonna change the, because"},{"startTime":939.77,"endTime":943.25,"body":"like all of sudden you can"},{"startTime":943.25,"endTime":945.65,"body":"actually reason about every"},{"startTime":943.25,"endTime":945.65,"body":"single thing that's happening"},{"startTime":945.65,"endTime":947.69,"body":"within your enterprise,"},{"startTime":945.65,"endTime":947.69,"body":"quite possibly, right?"},{"startTime":948.53,"endTime":950.0,"body":"you can take action on that."},{"startTime":951.65,"endTime":954.35,"body":"And, on the offense side,"},{"startTime":951.65,"endTime":954.35,"body":"it's kind of, you know, the"},{"startTime":954.35,"endTime":956.66,"body":"same thing that like the"},{"startTime":954.35,"endTime":956.66,"body":"attackers can now afford to"},{"startTime":956.66,"endTime":960.02,"body":"pull on every single door"},{"startTime":956.66,"endTime":960.02,"body":"handle within your enterprise."},{"startTime":960.86,"endTime":963.32,"body":"they can do that more quickly"},{"startTime":960.86,"endTime":963.32,"body":"and they don't have to care."},{"startTime":963.32,"endTime":965.0,"body":"Like, you know, if you're"},{"startTime":963.32,"endTime":965.0,"body":"using an agent, you have"},{"startTime":965.0,"endTime":967.49,"body":"to worry about it deleting"},{"startTime":965.0,"endTime":967.49,"body":"your production database."},{"startTime":968.366,"endTime":968.966,"body":"They don't."},{"startTime":969.116,"endTime":969.356,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":969.356,"endTime":971.846,"body":"Like, if it messes up, well"},{"startTime":969.356,"endTime":971.846,"body":"that's a shame, but that"},{"startTime":971.846,"endTime":973.076,"body":"was your data not theirs."},{"startTime":973.076,"endTime":973.346,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":974.636,"endTime":977.786,"body":"so, uh, so I like, again,"},{"startTime":974.636,"endTime":977.786,"body":"I think there's a lot"},{"startTime":977.786,"endTime":980.516,"body":"of interesting wake up"},{"startTime":977.786,"endTime":980.516,"body":"calls for, for security."},{"startTime":980.606,"endTime":983.636,"body":"Uh, that and, and things we"},{"startTime":980.606,"endTime":983.636,"body":"need to reckon with, and things"},{"startTime":983.636,"endTime":984.596,"body":"we need to start building."},{"startTime":984.596,"endTime":986.576,"body":"But like, you know, the"},{"startTime":984.596,"endTime":986.576,"body":"vulnerability research"},{"startTime":986.576,"endTime":990.866,"body":"side amazing and it's, you"},{"startTime":986.576,"endTime":990.866,"body":"know, on some level it is."},{"startTime":993.012,"endTime":997.302,"body":"Depressing to me that, you know,"},{"startTime":993.012,"endTime":997.302,"body":"this is the, the one thing that"},{"startTime":997.302,"endTime":1000.992,"body":"I always enjoyed and, uh, you"},{"startTime":997.302,"endTime":1000.992,"body":"know, same as Thomas, right?"},{"startTime":1000.992,"endTime":1005.492,"body":"Like, it really motivated me"},{"startTime":1000.992,"endTime":1005.492,"body":"to learn now, you know, there's"},{"startTime":1005.492,"endTime":1008.102,"body":"a computer that can do it"},{"startTime":1005.492,"endTime":1008.102,"body":"better, the same or better and,"},{"startTime":1008.102,"endTime":1009.602,"body":"and, you know, for a lot less."},{"startTime":1010.862,"endTime":1014.642,"body":"but yeah, I that, that's sort"},{"startTime":1010.862,"endTime":1014.642,"body":"of, you know, the genesis of"},{"startTime":1014.642,"endTime":1015.872,"body":"my skepticism here, right?"},{"startTime":1015.872,"endTime":1021.902,"body":"I think the, the AI apocalypse"},{"startTime":1015.872,"endTime":1021.902,"body":"in the industry or the day"},{"startTime":1021.902,"endTime":1025.472,"body":"of reckoning is coming,"},{"startTime":1021.902,"endTime":1025.472,"body":"but it's probably not the,"},{"startTime":1025.472,"endTime":1028.652,"body":"you know, v apocalypse"},{"startTime":1025.472,"endTime":1028.652,"body":"right angle specifically."},{"startTime":1028.952,"endTime":1031.738,"body":"Yeah, I, I, I wanna,"},{"startTime":1028.952,"endTime":1031.738,"body":"you go, sorry."},{"startTime":1032.084,"endTime":1035.624,"body":"Uh, I, no, I, I mostly,"},{"startTime":1032.084,"endTime":1035.624,"body":"uh, agree with you."},{"startTime":1035.714,"endTime":1039.614,"body":"Um, the way that I would put"},{"startTime":1035.714,"endTime":1039.614,"body":"it is that, that it seems like"},{"startTime":1040.334,"endTime":1046.694,"body":"ex, like zero day exploitation"},{"startTime":1040.334,"endTime":1046.694,"body":"is or let's see, pre AI was"},{"startTime":1046.694,"endTime":1048.764,"body":"not supply constrained at all."},{"startTime":1048.884,"endTime":1050.294,"body":"It was demand constrained."},{"startTime":1050.684,"endTime":1056.114,"body":"Um, because like for the"},{"startTime":1050.684,"endTime":1056.114,"body":"most part, works in the sense"},{"startTime":1056.114,"endTime":1060.584,"body":"that it is like not a good"},{"startTime":1056.114,"endTime":1060.584,"body":"career option for anyone"},{"startTime":1060.584,"endTime":1066.644,"body":"on this call to decide to"},{"startTime":1060.584,"endTime":1066.644,"body":"like go into exploitation."},{"startTime":1066.644,"endTime":1071.294,"body":"And if they do like actual,"},{"startTime":1066.644,"endTime":1071.294,"body":"like computer exploitation, not"},{"startTime":1071.294,"endTime":1072.794,"body":"like vulnerability research."},{"startTime":1072.944,"endTime":1075.704,"body":"And if they do, like you said,"},{"startTime":1072.944,"endTime":1075.704,"body":"you're probably just gonna go"},{"startTime":1075.704,"endTime":1077.294,"body":"after unpatched things anyway."},{"startTime":1077.744,"endTime":1080.264,"body":"It's not clear that"},{"startTime":1077.744,"endTime":1080.264,"body":"increasing the number of"},{"startTime":1080.264,"endTime":1083.924,"body":"available zero days results"},{"startTime":1080.264,"endTime":1083.924,"body":"in more like actual."},{"startTime":1084.882,"endTime":1087.672,"body":"Operationalized,"},{"startTime":1084.882,"endTime":1087.672,"body":"uh, uh, exploits."},{"startTime":1088.02,"endTime":1088.29,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1088.692,"endTime":1089.322,"body":"I,"},{"startTime":1089.365,"endTime":1089.82,"body":"to, to, be"},{"startTime":1090.12,"endTime":1091.272,"body":"and it seems like it won't."},{"startTime":1091.47,"endTime":1093.33,"body":"I, I think, you know, that"},{"startTime":1091.47,"endTime":1093.33,"body":"there are quantitative"},{"startTime":1093.33,"endTime":1094.02,"body":"differences, right?"},{"startTime":1094.02,"endTime":1096.21,"body":"Like I'm, I think it"},{"startTime":1094.02,"endTime":1096.21,"body":"lowers the bar, right?"},{"startTime":1096.21,"endTime":1096.72,"body":"And sort of, you"},{"startTime":1096.916,"endTime":1097.696,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1097.8,"endTime":1100.23,"body":"think, you know, it's"},{"startTime":1097.8,"endTime":1100.23,"body":"gonna alter the market"},{"startTime":1100.23,"endTime":1100.92,"body":"dynamics, right?"},{"startTime":1100.92,"endTime":1101.384,"body":"Like, if you wanna"},{"startTime":1101.684,"endTime":1102.134,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1102.434,"endTime":1103.83,"body":"maybe you're gonna be"},{"startTime":1102.434,"endTime":1103.83,"body":"able to buy it for less."},{"startTime":1104.13,"endTime":1106.44,"body":"Yeah, we may have"},{"startTime":1104.13,"endTime":1106.44,"body":"the Jevons paradox"},{"startTime":1106.74,"endTime":1106.92,"body":"It's"},{"startTime":1107.056,"endTime":1107.686,"body":"for, for."},{"startTime":1107.986,"endTime":1110.94,"body":"qua qualitative versus"},{"startTime":1107.986,"endTime":1110.94,"body":"quantitative, I think"},{"startTime":1110.94,"endTime":1111.63,"body":"is the distinction."},{"startTime":1111.63,"endTime":1111.99,"body":"I see."},{"startTime":1112.29,"endTime":1115.424,"body":"Yeah, so I, I think there"},{"startTime":1112.29,"endTime":1115.424,"body":"will be, there is like a risk"},{"startTime":1115.424,"endTime":1120.794,"body":"that like in like, let's say"},{"startTime":1115.424,"endTime":1120.794,"body":"Southeast Asia, not to rag"},{"startTime":1120.794,"endTime":1123.434,"body":"on them, that are currently"},{"startTime":1120.794,"endTime":1123.434,"body":"running like tech support scams,"},{"startTime":1124.184,"endTime":1129.404,"body":"um, may find that it is now"},{"startTime":1124.184,"endTime":1129.404,"body":"economical to run subset, subset"},{"startTime":1129.404,"endTime":1133.184,"body":"of like AI driven exploitation"},{"startTime":1129.404,"endTime":1133.184,"body":"things on some subset of users."},{"startTime":1133.97,"endTime":1134.36,"body":"But"},{"startTime":1134.749,"endTime":1135.344,"body":"but I"},{"startTime":1135.535,"endTime":1135.695,"body":"back"},{"startTime":1136.094,"endTime":1138.974,"body":"would look different kind"},{"startTime":1136.094,"endTime":1138.974,"body":"of in the same way that like"},{"startTime":1139.844,"endTime":1143.204,"body":"reading music got replaced"},{"startTime":1139.844,"endTime":1143.204,"body":"with like listening to Spotify"},{"startTime":1143.624,"endTime":1147.914,"body":"versus like everyone just"},{"startTime":1143.624,"endTime":1147.914,"body":"started paying 99 cents a song."},{"startTime":1148.564,"endTime":1151.504,"body":"Like I, so I, I, I think I'm"},{"startTime":1148.564,"endTime":1151.504,"body":"like the, the, the resident."},{"startTime":1152.404,"endTime":1155.824,"body":"Vulnerability research and AI"},{"startTime":1152.404,"endTime":1155.824,"body":"maximalist in this conversation."},{"startTime":1155.824,"endTime":1156.124,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1156.364,"endTime":1161.644,"body":"And I do think that the,"},{"startTime":1156.364,"endTime":1161.644,"body":"like, the emphasis on, um,"},{"startTime":1161.674,"endTime":1164.164,"body":"you know, the, the first"},{"startTime":1161.674,"endTime":1164.164,"body":"tier targets like Chrome"},{"startTime":1164.164,"endTime":1165.424,"body":"and iOS and all that, right?"},{"startTime":1166.354,"endTime":1170.614,"body":"feel like mostly a"},{"startTime":1166.354,"endTime":1170.614,"body":"competitive thing, if that's"},{"startTime":1170.614,"endTime":1171.454,"body":"the right way to put it."},{"startTime":1171.664,"endTime":1173.074,"body":"It's mostly kind of"},{"startTime":1171.664,"endTime":1173.074,"body":"like a, it's, it's"},{"startTime":1173.074,"endTime":1174.064,"body":"tournament logic, right?"},{"startTime":1174.064,"endTime":1177.154,"body":"It doesn't have that much to do"},{"startTime":1174.064,"endTime":1177.154,"body":"with making things more secure."},{"startTime":1177.454,"endTime":1180.214,"body":"I, I feel like when we talked"},{"startTime":1177.454,"endTime":1180.214,"body":"to, uh, mark Dow about like"},{"startTime":1180.214,"endTime":1183.004,"body":"the markets and vulnerability"},{"startTime":1180.214,"endTime":1183.004,"body":"research, I didn't come away"},{"startTime":1183.004,"endTime":1186.484,"body":"from that with the sense"},{"startTime":1183.004,"endTime":1186.484,"body":"that like they were lacking"},{"startTime":1186.484,"endTime":1189.124,"body":"for possible vulnerability"},{"startTime":1186.484,"endTime":1189.124,"body":"avenues to chase down."},{"startTime":1189.424,"endTime":1189.858,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":1190.158,"endTime":1190.548,"body":"and like"},{"startTime":1190.864,"endTime":1193.774,"body":"there's a, like, there's a"},{"startTime":1190.864,"endTime":1193.774,"body":"persistent logic that, you"},{"startTime":1193.774,"endTime":1196.084,"body":"know, state level actors"},{"startTime":1193.774,"endTime":1196.084,"body":"or whatever are stockpiling"},{"startTime":1196.084,"endTime":1198.514,"body":"vulnerabilities, which turns"},{"startTime":1196.084,"endTime":1198.514,"body":"out not to be true, like"},{"startTime":1198.754,"endTime":1201.124,"body":"it's a software product, like"},{"startTime":1198.754,"endTime":1201.124,"body":"every other software product."},{"startTime":1201.124,"endTime":1202.864,"body":"And they're literally more"},{"startTime":1201.124,"endTime":1202.864,"body":"concerned about paying"},{"startTime":1202.864,"endTime":1205.294,"body":"maintenance costs for"},{"startTime":1202.864,"endTime":1205.294,"body":"vulnerabilities and exploit"},{"startTime":1205.294,"endTime":1207.844,"body":"kits than they are with like,"},{"startTime":1205.294,"endTime":1207.844,"body":"you know, having 15 different"},{"startTime":1207.844,"endTime":1208.924,"body":"backup vulnerabilities."},{"startTime":1209.104,"endTime":1209.794,"body":"So."},{"startTime":1210.582,"endTime":1213.942,"body":"you could look at the situation"},{"startTime":1210.582,"endTime":1213.942,"body":"and say, okay, the fact that"},{"startTime":1213.942,"endTime":1216.132,"body":"it's gonna get cheaper to find"},{"startTime":1213.942,"endTime":1216.132,"body":"Chrome vulnerabilities, like"},{"startTime":1216.132,"endTime":1217.512,"body":"a chrome drive-by or whatever."},{"startTime":1217.812,"endTime":1220.422,"body":"Um, and that won't change that"},{"startTime":1217.812,"endTime":1220.422,"body":"much because everybody that"},{"startTime":1220.422,"endTime":1223.032,"body":"you cared about having Chrome"},{"startTime":1220.422,"endTime":1223.032,"body":"drive-bys already had 'em."},{"startTime":1224.127,"endTime":1224.347,"body":"or"},{"startTime":1224.802,"endTime":1225.982,"body":"already a market"},{"startTime":1224.802,"endTime":1225.982,"body":"that makes that work."},{"startTime":1226.057,"endTime":1226.547,"body":"already"},{"startTime":1226.9,"endTime":1227.08,"body":"an"},{"startTime":1227.452,"endTime":1229.732,"body":"they really needed and no more."},{"startTime":1229.732,"endTime":1229.792,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1230.916,"endTime":1231.126,"body":"and I,"},{"startTime":1231.426,"endTime":1235.548,"body":"An early Uber investor a few"},{"startTime":1231.426,"endTime":1235.548,"body":"weeks ago was saying, oh, I"},{"startTime":1235.548,"endTime":1238.458,"body":"don't know why we didn't give"},{"startTime":1235.548,"endTime":1238.458,"body":"Mythos like to the US government"},{"startTime":1238.458,"endTime":1241.488,"body":"and then use it to hack China,"},{"startTime":1238.458,"endTime":1241.488,"body":"like before announcing it."},{"startTime":1241.488,"endTime":1243.438,"body":"And it's like, well that's"},{"startTime":1241.488,"endTime":1243.438,"body":"'cause that's not how"},{"startTime":1243.438,"endTime":1244.728,"body":"any of this can works."},{"startTime":1244.908,"endTime":1246.258,"body":"Like we're not short."},{"startTime":1246.438,"endTime":1249.678,"body":"The reason that like the"},{"startTime":1246.438,"endTime":1249.678,"body":"US military can or cannot"},{"startTime":1249.678,"endTime":1251.898,"body":"get into something in China"},{"startTime":1249.678,"endTime":1251.898,"body":"has nothing to do with like"},{"startTime":1251.898,"endTime":1253.188,"body":"a shortage of exploits."},{"startTime":1253.332,"endTime":1255.762,"body":"The, the, the other reason"},{"startTime":1253.332,"endTime":1255.762,"body":"why I, I'm kind of skeptical"},{"startTime":1255.762,"endTime":1257.862,"body":"about the vulnerability"},{"startTime":1255.762,"endTime":1257.862,"body":"situation specifically is"},{"startTime":1257.862,"endTime":1260.142,"body":"that I think there's like"},{"startTime":1257.862,"endTime":1260.142,"body":"inherent symmetry to it, right?"},{"startTime":1260.142,"endTime":1263.742,"body":"Like any tool that the bad guy"},{"startTime":1260.142,"endTime":1263.742,"body":"can use, the, the good guys can"},{"startTime":1263.742,"endTime":1266.562,"body":"use exactly the same way, right?"},{"startTime":1266.892,"endTime":1272.292,"body":"So if Chrome or you"},{"startTime":1266.892,"endTime":1272.292,"body":"know, Microsoft or"},{"startTime":1272.292,"endTime":1274.002,"body":"whoever Apple want to."},{"startTime":1275.316,"endTime":1278.076,"body":"Sort of, you know, much"},{"startTime":1275.316,"endTime":1278.076,"body":"the increase in the"},{"startTime":1278.436,"endTime":1279.996,"body":"availability of zero days."},{"startTime":1279.996,"endTime":1282.936,"body":"You know, they, they have"},{"startTime":1279.996,"endTime":1282.936,"body":"a simple lever to pull and"},{"startTime":1282.936,"endTime":1285.186,"body":"they can sort of, you know,"},{"startTime":1282.936,"endTime":1285.186,"body":"get where they want to be"},{"startTime":1285.186,"endTime":1288.516,"body":"to restore the, the, the,"},{"startTime":1285.186,"endTime":1288.516,"body":"the previous equilibrium."},{"startTime":1288.846,"endTime":1289.176,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1289.416,"endTime":1290.466,"body":"Or even go beyond."},{"startTime":1290.646,"endTime":1293.046,"body":"I think there are many other"},{"startTime":1290.646,"endTime":1293.046,"body":"areas in security where"},{"startTime":1293.046,"endTime":1294.186,"body":"that symmetry doesn't hold."},{"startTime":1294.516,"endTime":1294.726,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1294.726,"endTime":1296.826,"body":"Like the, the, the, the example"},{"startTime":1294.726,"endTime":1296.826,"body":"I mentioned, like, you know,"},{"startTime":1296.826,"endTime":1300.006,"body":"the defense versus offense"},{"startTime":1296.826,"endTime":1300.006,"body":"on the, on, on the, on the,"},{"startTime":1300.006,"endTime":1304.236,"body":"on the enterprise side this,"},{"startTime":1300.006,"endTime":1304.236,"body":"as symmetry baked in, it's a"},{"startTime":1304.431,"endTime":1304.671,"body":"a lot"},{"startTime":1305.016,"endTime":1308.796,"body":"easier to crank out hyper"},{"startTime":1305.016,"endTime":1308.796,"body":"targeted spear phishing"},{"startTime":1308.796,"endTime":1312.306,"body":"emails to exec than to detect"},{"startTime":1308.796,"endTime":1312.306,"body":"and stop them reliably."},{"startTime":1312.366,"endTime":1312.726,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1312.756,"endTime":1313.566,"body":"Even with ai."},{"startTime":1314.316,"endTime":1319.506,"body":"And so, uh, I, I think that's"},{"startTime":1314.316,"endTime":1319.506,"body":"where the, the AI gives"},{"startTime":1319.836,"endTime":1321.696,"body":"the bad guy is a lot more."},{"startTime":1323.188,"endTime":1326.608,"body":"Advantage that is more"},{"startTime":1323.188,"endTime":1326.608,"body":"difficult to counter Right."},{"startTime":1328.138,"endTime":1330.628,"body":"you know, we were fing"},{"startTime":1328.138,"endTime":1330.628,"body":"chrome before, now we"},{"startTime":1330.628,"endTime":1334.888,"body":"are also gonna, you know,"},{"startTime":1330.628,"endTime":1334.888,"body":"throw some l LMS at it."},{"startTime":1334.888,"endTime":1335.248,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1335.308,"endTime":1340.738,"body":"And, and that's kind of, you"},{"startTime":1335.308,"endTime":1340.738,"body":"know, the eternal struggle"},{"startTime":1341.008,"endTime":1342.838,"body":"between good and evil."},{"startTime":1342.843,"endTime":1342.913,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1343.334,"endTime":1346.154,"body":"It changes things operationally"},{"startTime":1343.334,"endTime":1346.154,"body":"a lot for all of the reasons"},{"startTime":1346.154,"endTime":1350.474,"body":"that like Thomas doesn't"},{"startTime":1346.154,"endTime":1350.474,"body":"care about, um, which are,"},{"startTime":1350.474,"endTime":1352.544,"body":"I think the ones that are"},{"startTime":1350.474,"endTime":1352.544,"body":"interesting to, to me."},{"startTime":1352.574,"endTime":1352.964,"body":"And so like."},{"startTime":1354.612,"endTime":1355.962,"body":"You, you have a question?"},{"startTime":1355.962,"endTime":1360.132,"body":"Even like right now, had"},{"startTime":1355.962,"endTime":1360.132,"body":"people come to me at Chrome"},{"startTime":1360.192,"endTime":1362.682,"body":"who like work on other parts"},{"startTime":1360.192,"endTime":1362.682,"body":"of Chrome and are basically"},{"startTime":1362.682,"endTime":1367.542,"body":"like, aren't we just drastically"},{"startTime":1362.682,"endTime":1367.542,"body":"overinvesting in basically"},{"startTime":1367.542,"endTime":1369.192,"body":"like anti exploitation things."},{"startTime":1369.552,"endTime":1371.652,"body":"And if you look at it like"},{"startTime":1369.552,"endTime":1371.652,"body":"by the numbers, right?"},{"startTime":1371.652,"endTime":1374.112,"body":"There's like not that"},{"startTime":1371.652,"endTime":1374.112,"body":"many people whose chromes"},{"startTime":1374.142,"endTime":1375.132,"body":"get popped every year."},{"startTime":1375.252,"endTime":1379.362,"body":"So in some sense we are,"},{"startTime":1375.252,"endTime":1379.362,"body":"other hand, like what we're"},{"startTime":1379.366,"endTime":1383.322,"body":"really doing is, is like"},{"startTime":1379.366,"endTime":1383.322,"body":"we're winning sort of for"},{"startTime":1383.322,"endTime":1384.642,"body":"some definition of winning."},{"startTime":1385.032,"endTime":1388.512,"body":"And like if we stopped doing all"},{"startTime":1385.032,"endTime":1388.512,"body":"of this, it will go back and it"},{"startTime":1388.512,"endTime":1391.752,"body":"would look like two early 2000"},{"startTime":1388.512,"endTime":1391.752,"body":"or the late nineties again."},{"startTime":1391.992,"endTime":1393.912,"body":"And so we just kind of"},{"startTime":1391.992,"endTime":1393.912,"body":"have to do all this work"},{"startTime":1393.912,"endTime":1395.412,"body":"to run in place sort of."},{"startTime":1396.222,"endTime":1397.422,"body":"then like what,"},{"startTime":1399.582,"endTime":1403.002,"body":"like AI bug finding has"},{"startTime":1399.582,"endTime":1403.002,"body":"done, has, I think in many"},{"startTime":1403.002,"endTime":1405.462,"body":"ways like just validated"},{"startTime":1403.002,"endTime":1405.462,"body":"things that a bunch of"},{"startTime":1405.462,"endTime":1407.052,"body":"security people already knew."},{"startTime":1407.052,"endTime":1409.692,"body":"Like for, for platforms,"},{"startTime":1407.052,"endTime":1409.692,"body":"basically like let's"},{"startTime":1409.692,"endTime":1411.732,"body":"ignore the open source"},{"startTime":1409.692,"endTime":1411.732,"body":"projects, which is like."},{"startTime":1412.734,"endTime":1413.334,"body":"interesting."},{"startTime":1413.334,"endTime":1413.694,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1414.089,"endTime":1417.114,"body":"I, I agree with everyone else"},{"startTime":1414.089,"endTime":1417.114,"body":"that I don't really care about."},{"startTime":1417.214,"endTime":1417.664,"body":"How about,"},{"startTime":1417.984,"endTime":1420.714,"body":"about like small open source"},{"startTime":1417.984,"endTime":1420.714,"body":"projects and instead, like,"},{"startTime":1420.714,"endTime":1423.504,"body":"let's just talk about like"},{"startTime":1420.714,"endTime":1423.504,"body":"things that previously were"},{"startTime":1423.504,"endTime":1426.264,"body":"targets for exploitation,"},{"startTime":1423.504,"endTime":1426.264,"body":"which is like client side"},{"startTime":1426.264,"endTime":1427.614,"body":"platforms like browsers"},{"startTime":1427.744,"endTime":1429.904,"body":"Let's not talk about"},{"startTime":1427.744,"endTime":1429.904,"body":"stuff like XZ, right?"},{"startTime":1429.904,"endTime":1430.804,"body":"Like who cares about that?"},{"startTime":1432.302,"endTime":1436.772,"body":"Um, I mean, in practice, uh,"},{"startTime":1432.302,"endTime":1436.772,"body":"um, in practice, like, uh, I,"},{"startTime":1436.772,"endTime":1440.132,"body":"I would just, I would quote"},{"startTime":1436.772,"endTime":1440.132,"body":"Hermione, um, and, and say,"},{"startTime":1440.132,"endTime":1441.812,"body":"you know, when that turns"},{"startTime":1440.132,"endTime":1441.812,"body":"out, when that happens, we're"},{"startTime":1441.812,"endTime":1442.622,"body":"pretty good at catching it."},{"startTime":1442.952,"endTime":1445.562,"body":"Um, uh, but."},{"startTime":1446.644,"endTime":1453.994,"body":"Like the deluge of AI bugs has"},{"startTime":1446.644,"endTime":1453.994,"body":"created, like has magnified all"},{"startTime":1453.994,"endTime":1456.634,"body":"the things that were already"},{"startTime":1453.994,"endTime":1456.634,"body":"stupid about bug bounties, which"},{"startTime":1456.634,"endTime":1461.104,"body":"was that like a bug bounty is"},{"startTime":1456.634,"endTime":1461.104,"body":"like the worst possible way to"},{"startTime":1461.104,"endTime":1463.984,"body":"prioritize security work because"},{"startTime":1461.104,"endTime":1463.984,"body":"it's entirely interrupt driven."},{"startTime":1464.464,"endTime":1466.864,"body":"And so instead, what you have"},{"startTime":1464.464,"endTime":1466.864,"body":"is you have just deluge of bugs"},{"startTime":1466.864,"endTime":1468.934,"body":"that were basically validating"},{"startTime":1466.864,"endTime":1468.934,"body":"everything the security people"},{"startTime":1468.934,"endTime":1470.734,"body":"said, which was like, your"},{"startTime":1468.934,"endTime":1470.734,"body":"code's full of memory safety"},{"startTime":1470.734,"endTime":1472.984,"body":"vulnerabilities, and these are"},{"startTime":1470.734,"endTime":1472.984,"body":"the areas that are the worst."},{"startTime":1473.674,"endTime":1475.804,"body":"then people are like, oh,"},{"startTime":1473.674,"endTime":1475.804,"body":"you know, I don't know, like,"},{"startTime":1475.804,"endTime":1478.474,"body":"and security people are bad"},{"startTime":1475.804,"endTime":1478.474,"body":"at their jobs at getting"},{"startTime":1478.474,"endTime":1479.974,"body":"people to change anyway."},{"startTime":1480.784,"endTime":1482.794,"body":"And so all these bugs show"},{"startTime":1480.784,"endTime":1482.794,"body":"up and then you have this"},{"startTime":1482.794,"endTime":1485.374,"body":"operational question of like,"},{"startTime":1482.794,"endTime":1485.374,"body":"how do we deal with that?"},{"startTime":1485.464,"endTime":1488.584,"body":"And you have to deal with it,"},{"startTime":1485.464,"endTime":1488.584,"body":"even though the like impact"},{"startTime":1488.584,"endTime":1492.094,"body":"of increased exploitation"},{"startTime":1488.584,"endTime":1492.094,"body":"might not be that bad because"},{"startTime":1492.366,"endTime":1495.844,"body":"eventually, like if we just"},{"startTime":1492.366,"endTime":1495.844,"body":"chose to not deal with it, we'd"},{"startTime":1495.844,"endTime":1497.974,"body":"be back in the two thousands"},{"startTime":1495.844,"endTime":1497.974,"body":"again and we don't want that."},{"startTime":1498.124,"endTime":1500.824,"body":"So you have to figure out"},{"startTime":1498.124,"endTime":1500.824,"body":"how to deal with it and like,"},{"startTime":1500.854,"endTime":1502.834,"body":"yeah, you get the AI tools"},{"startTime":1500.854,"endTime":1502.834,"body":"to help you deal with the"},{"startTime":1502.834,"endTime":1504.274,"body":"problems that the AI solved."},{"startTime":1505.006,"endTime":1509.326,"body":"Um, but again, I think it"},{"startTime":1505.006,"endTime":1509.326,"body":"is a little bit harder for"},{"startTime":1509.596,"endTime":1513.196,"body":"defenders because like if, if"},{"startTime":1509.596,"endTime":1513.196,"body":"you're an engineering team,"},{"startTime":1513.196,"endTime":1516.076,"body":"you need to like make sure"},{"startTime":1513.196,"endTime":1516.076,"body":"this stuff is repeatable and"},{"startTime":1516.076,"endTime":1518.356,"body":"can either run on every commit"},{"startTime":1516.076,"endTime":1518.356,"body":"or you have like a consistent"},{"startTime":1518.356,"endTime":1521.296,"body":"way of using a harness to"},{"startTime":1518.356,"endTime":1521.296,"body":"find bugs and patch them and"},{"startTime":1521.296,"endTime":1522.616,"body":"prevent them from coming back."},{"startTime":1523.036,"endTime":1526.276,"body":"Whereas if you're like selling"},{"startTime":1523.036,"endTime":1526.276,"body":"exploits, even if you're"},{"startTime":1526.276,"endTime":1529.846,"body":"operationalizing it, what you"},{"startTime":1526.276,"endTime":1529.846,"body":"need is a fuzzer you can run"},{"startTime":1529.846,"endTime":1534.586,"body":"for a few months that pops out"},{"startTime":1529.846,"endTime":1534.586,"body":"a big enough backlog and then"},{"startTime":1534.646,"endTime":1536.746,"body":"a couple months later you need"},{"startTime":1534.646,"endTime":1536.746,"body":"to be able to do that again."},{"startTime":1536.836,"endTime":1539.326,"body":"I'm kind of, I haven't actually"},{"startTime":1536.836,"endTime":1539.326,"body":"worked for an offensive firm"},{"startTime":1539.326,"endTime":1540.946,"body":"so I don't know that for"},{"startTime":1539.326,"endTime":1540.946,"body":"sure, but there's a difference"},{"startTime":1540.946,"endTime":1543.496,"body":"between finding a lot of"},{"startTime":1540.946,"endTime":1543.496,"body":"bugs once and then like"},{"startTime":1543.496,"endTime":1544.786,"body":"actually solving a problem."},{"startTime":1545.446,"endTime":1548.026,"body":"And again, the people working"},{"startTime":1545.446,"endTime":1548.026,"body":"on the platforms actually have"},{"startTime":1548.026,"endTime":1549.256,"body":"to solve the problems again."},{"startTime":1549.461,"endTime":1551.926,"body":"And, and that just always"},{"startTime":1549.461,"endTime":1551.926,"body":"sucks 'cause you're, you"},{"startTime":1551.926,"endTime":1553.216,"body":"know, doing the work."},{"startTime":1553.266,"endTime":1557.226,"body":"you know, like with, with, you"},{"startTime":1553.266,"endTime":1557.226,"body":"know, browsers in particular,"},{"startTime":1557.226,"endTime":1560.886,"body":"I think, you know, the implicit"},{"startTime":1557.226,"endTime":1560.886,"body":"assumption is that given"},{"startTime":1560.886,"endTime":1563.916,"body":"the developer velocity, the"},{"startTime":1560.886,"endTime":1563.916,"body":"choice of languages and the"},{"startTime":1563.916,"endTime":1566.916,"body":"features that are sort, you"},{"startTime":1563.916,"endTime":1566.916,"body":"know, being shipped every year,"},{"startTime":1567.786,"endTime":1572.466,"body":"we are accepting, implicitly"},{"startTime":1567.786,"endTime":1572.466,"body":"accepting a certain baseline"},{"startTime":1572.526,"endTime":1575.616,"body":"of security failures, right?"},{"startTime":1575.826,"endTime":1579.126,"body":"So like, we are not aiming"},{"startTime":1575.826,"endTime":1579.126,"body":"for a state of having"},{"startTime":1579.126,"endTime":1581.166,"body":"zero vulnerability because"},{"startTime":1579.126,"endTime":1581.166,"body":"that would be insane."},{"startTime":1581.166,"endTime":1582.666,"body":"And also, yeah."},{"startTime":1583.416,"endTime":1585.216,"body":"Uh, and so."},{"startTime":1586.228,"endTime":1588.988,"body":"I, I, yeah, you wanna"},{"startTime":1586.228,"endTime":1588.988,"body":"lower the base rate."},{"startTime":1588.988,"endTime":1590.908,"body":"You know, you wanna run"},{"startTime":1588.988,"endTime":1590.908,"body":"the same tools that the"},{"startTime":1590.918,"endTime":1590.978,"body":"the"},{"startTime":1591.418,"endTime":1596.038,"body":"guys are running at the same or"},{"startTime":1591.418,"endTime":1596.038,"body":"larger scale to make their lives"},{"startTime":1596.038,"endTime":1601.378,"body":"harder, but ultimately more"},{"startTime":1596.038,"endTime":1601.378,"body":"hinges not on the inability to"},{"startTime":1601.378,"endTime":1605.188,"body":"find another bug in, you know,"},{"startTime":1601.378,"endTime":1605.188,"body":"WebGL or whatever, but, uh,"},{"startTime":1606.178,"endTime":1607.648,"body":"actually on mitigations, right?"},{"startTime":1607.813,"endTime":1607.873,"body":"like"},{"startTime":1608.308,"endTime":1610.228,"body":"up and making it"},{"startTime":1608.308,"endTime":1610.228,"body":"really difficult to"},{"startTime":1610.228,"endTime":1612.868,"body":"reliably exploit and,"},{"startTime":1612.993,"endTime":1613.213,"body":"and"},{"startTime":1613.798,"endTime":1614.878,"body":"the cost up, right?"},{"startTime":1614.878,"endTime":1617.338,"body":"Like most of the mitigations"},{"startTime":1614.878,"endTime":1617.338,"body":"you can eventually bypass"},{"startTime":1617.338,"endTime":1619.528,"body":"if you get lucky, if you"},{"startTime":1617.338,"endTime":1619.528,"body":"can, if you chain together,"},{"startTime":1619.528,"endTime":1620.818,"body":"you know, five or 10 bucks."},{"startTime":1621.238,"endTime":1626.248,"body":"But a large of why zero days"},{"startTime":1621.238,"endTime":1626.248,"body":"have gotten so expensive"},{"startTime":1626.278,"endTime":1629.998,"body":"is you need to do all"},{"startTime":1626.278,"endTime":1629.998,"body":"that legwork that wasn't"},{"startTime":1630.478,"endTime":1633.808,"body":"necessarily essential before."},{"startTime":1633.808,"endTime":1634.258,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1634.288,"endTime":1634.798,"body":"And"},{"startTime":1635.95,"endTime":1638.62,"body":"with that a little bit"},{"startTime":1635.95,"endTime":1638.62,"body":"in the sense that like"},{"startTime":1640.24,"endTime":1642.64,"body":"enough mitigations, like"},{"startTime":1640.24,"endTime":1642.64,"body":"do you actually have"},{"startTime":1642.64,"endTime":1644.41,"body":"an impact on attackers?"},{"startTime":1644.71,"endTime":1649.36,"body":"But you can like affirmatively"},{"startTime":1644.71,"endTime":1649.36,"body":"say, like a given bug that comes"},{"startTime":1649.36,"endTime":1652.15,"body":"into your queue, like doesn't"},{"startTime":1649.36,"endTime":1652.15,"body":"matter at like at this line of"},{"startTime":1652.15,"endTime":1655.0,"body":"code, ideally by like inspecting"},{"startTime":1652.15,"endTime":1655.0,"body":"the line of code being"},{"startTime":1655.0,"endTime":1656.17,"body":"like, oh, this uses a span."},{"startTime":1656.17,"endTime":1657.79,"body":"So I know it's not an out"},{"startTime":1656.17,"endTime":1657.79,"body":"of bounds read unless the"},{"startTime":1657.79,"endTime":1659.98,"body":"span is constructed wrong"},{"startTime":1657.79,"endTime":1659.98,"body":"or it uses raw putter,"},{"startTime":1660.13,"endTime":1661.27,"body":"miracle pointer and chrome."},{"startTime":1661.48,"endTime":1663.13,"body":"So we know the use after"},{"startTime":1661.48,"endTime":1663.13,"body":"free doesn't matter."},{"startTime":1663.182,"endTime":1663.452,"body":"no, no."},{"startTime":1663.61,"endTime":1665.68,"body":"Like if you have something where"},{"startTime":1663.61,"endTime":1665.68,"body":"like, oh, maybe it's just a"},{"startTime":1665.68,"endTime":1668.838,"body":"right and not a read, you still"},{"startTime":1665.68,"endTime":1668.838,"body":"have to treat it like it's bad"},{"startTime":1669.138,"endTime":1669.348,"body":"I, was,"},{"startTime":1669.648,"endTime":1671.98,"body":"and then it comes through your"},{"startTime":1669.648,"endTime":1671.98,"body":"whole process as an engineer."},{"startTime":1672.078,"endTime":1673.428,"body":"I was talking about,"},{"startTime":1672.078,"endTime":1673.428,"body":"the offense side, right?"},{"startTime":1673.428,"endTime":1673.608,"body":"Like"},{"startTime":1673.908,"endTime":1675.916,"body":"Yeah, but you can't discern."},{"startTime":1676.366,"endTime":1680.146,"body":"The problem is the defender"},{"startTime":1676.366,"endTime":1680.146,"body":"can't discern which ones were"},{"startTime":1680.206,"endTime":1681.736,"body":"useful and which ones were not."},{"startTime":1681.736,"endTime":1683.116,"body":"And so you have to"},{"startTime":1681.736,"endTime":1683.116,"body":"treat them all the same."},{"startTime":1683.206,"endTime":1685.456,"body":"And so if you just apply"},{"startTime":1683.206,"endTime":1685.456,"body":"mitigations, even if you are"},{"startTime":1685.456,"endTime":1688.846,"body":"actively hurting the ability"},{"startTime":1685.456,"endTime":1688.846,"body":"to actually exploit Chrome,"},{"startTime":1689.146,"endTime":1691.246,"body":"like you're not solving your"},{"startTime":1689.146,"endTime":1691.246,"body":"problem, of you have this"},{"startTime":1691.246,"endTime":1695.566,"body":"massive interrupt queue of"},{"startTime":1691.246,"endTime":1695.566,"body":"security issues, um, which"},{"startTime":1695.566,"endTime":1697.396,"body":"eventually, like you're"},{"startTime":1695.566,"endTime":1697.396,"body":"just gonna stop looking at."},{"startTime":1697.428,"endTime":1700.068,"body":"Yeah, yeah, we we're basically"},{"startTime":1697.428,"endTime":1700.068,"body":"doing two things that are"},{"startTime":1700.068,"endTime":1701.508,"body":"not solving the problem, but,"},{"startTime":1702.996,"endTime":1703.806,"body":"Y Yeah,"},{"startTime":1703.848,"endTime":1705.408,"body":"trying to ate all"},{"startTime":1703.848,"endTime":1705.408,"body":"the bugs, but yeah."},{"startTime":1706.26,"endTime":1708.18,"body":"So there's like an implicit"},{"startTime":1706.26,"endTime":1708.18,"body":"assumption here in this"},{"startTime":1708.18,"endTime":1711.54,"body":"conversation that like the"},{"startTime":1708.18,"endTime":1711.54,"body":"vulnerabilities that, um, agents"},{"startTime":1711.54,"endTime":1715.17,"body":"might find, um, and we can get"},{"startTime":1711.54,"endTime":1715.17,"body":"into like more of why we think."},{"startTime":1715.572,"endTime":1717.792,"body":"You know, agents might or"},{"startTime":1715.572,"endTime":1717.792,"body":"might not find different kinds"},{"startTime":1717.792,"endTime":1719.892,"body":"of vulnerabilities, but like"},{"startTime":1717.792,"endTime":1719.892,"body":"the vulnerabilities they're"},{"startTime":1719.892,"endTime":1722.352,"body":"gonna find are gonna be of"},{"startTime":1719.892,"endTime":1722.352,"body":"the same kind of, they're"},{"startTime":1722.352,"endTime":1723.942,"body":"gonna rhyme with all the"},{"startTime":1722.352,"endTime":1723.942,"body":"vulnerabilities that we've"},{"startTime":1723.942,"endTime":1727.512,"body":"seen so far, and like we're"},{"startTime":1723.942,"endTime":1727.512,"body":"accepting a certain amount,"},{"startTime":1727.782,"endTime":1730.722,"body":"uh, annually or every month or"},{"startTime":1727.782,"endTime":1730.722,"body":"whatever, of memory, corruption,"},{"startTime":1730.722,"endTime":1733.272,"body":"vulnerabilities and client side"},{"startTime":1730.722,"endTime":1733.272,"body":"software or whatever it is."},{"startTime":1733.272,"endTime":1733.812,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1733.842,"endTime":1736.002,"body":"And so, like, I think we feel"},{"startTime":1733.842,"endTime":1736.002,"body":"like we have a decent beat"},{"startTime":1736.002,"endTime":1737.052,"body":"on where things are going."},{"startTime":1737.575,"endTime":1737.735,"body":"like"},{"startTime":1738.372,"endTime":1739.272,"body":"I do feel like we've"},{"startTime":1739.415,"endTime":1739.575,"body":"of."},{"startTime":1740.352,"endTime":1743.382,"body":"like organizationally and as"},{"startTime":1740.352,"endTime":1743.382,"body":"kind of an industry, we've"},{"startTime":1743.382,"endTime":1747.222,"body":"metabolized a certain level"},{"startTime":1743.382,"endTime":1747.222,"body":"of, you know, dealing with"},{"startTime":1747.222,"endTime":1748.392,"body":"vulnerabilities, right?"},{"startTime":1748.392,"endTime":1750.552,"body":"Like the sky doesn't fall"},{"startTime":1748.392,"endTime":1750.552,"body":"every time a new vulnerability"},{"startTime":1750.552,"endTime":1752.352,"body":"comes out, you're much more"},{"startTime":1750.552,"endTime":1752.352,"body":"likely to get popped with"},{"startTime":1752.352,"endTime":1756.042,"body":"phishing, um, or by a dumb"},{"startTime":1752.352,"endTime":1756.042,"body":"misconfiguration or an S3"},{"startTime":1756.042,"endTime":1757.002,"body":"bucket or something like that."},{"startTime":1757.002,"endTime":1758.532,"body":"Like fully agree on that, right?"},{"startTime":1758.562,"endTime":1761.502,"body":"And like LLMs apply to that"},{"startTime":1758.562,"endTime":1761.502,"body":"stuff the same way they"},{"startTime":1761.502,"endTime":1763.242,"body":"apply to everything else,"},{"startTime":1761.502,"endTime":1763.242,"body":"which is super interesting."},{"startTime":1763.572,"endTime":1766.242,"body":"But I wanna push back"},{"startTime":1763.572,"endTime":1766.242,"body":"on the idea that like."},{"startTime":1766.644,"endTime":1770.124,"body":"What agents are gonna"},{"startTime":1766.644,"endTime":1770.124,"body":"do is, um, you know, get"},{"startTime":1770.124,"endTime":1772.554,"body":"us to peak oil on memory"},{"startTime":1770.124,"endTime":1772.554,"body":"corruption vulnerabilities,"},{"startTime":1772.554,"endTime":1773.514,"body":"somewhat that, right?"},{"startTime":1773.544,"endTime":1777.084,"body":"Like there were moments in the"},{"startTime":1773.544,"endTime":1777.084,"body":"past when we as practitioners,"},{"startTime":1777.084,"endTime":1780.774,"body":"like we were practicing one SQL"},{"startTime":1777.084,"endTime":1780.774,"body":"injection, you know, broke out."},{"startTime":1780.894,"endTime":1781.404,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1781.434,"endTime":1783.564,"body":"And there's, there's like a"},{"startTime":1781.434,"endTime":1783.564,"body":"before, after moment that was"},{"startTime":1783.564,"endTime":1786.354,"body":"probably the span of like just"},{"startTime":1783.564,"endTime":1786.354,"body":"a couple months where like."},{"startTime":1787.536,"endTime":1789.276,"body":"there were a bunch of things"},{"startTime":1787.536,"endTime":1789.276,"body":"that were hard to break into"},{"startTime":1789.276,"endTime":1792.756,"body":"and after like for a while,"},{"startTime":1789.276,"endTime":1792.756,"body":"everything was trivial."},{"startTime":1792.936,"endTime":1797.436,"body":"The first commercial pen test I"},{"startTime":1792.936,"endTime":1797.436,"body":"ever did, um, was like, it was,"},{"startTime":1797.466,"endTime":1800.016,"body":"it was a, it was an application"},{"startTime":1797.466,"endTime":1800.016,"body":"where I logged in with quote"},{"startTime":1800.016,"endTime":1802.836,"body":"or quote equals quote, which"},{"startTime":1800.016,"endTime":1802.836,"body":"is literally the first sequel"},{"startTime":1802.836,"endTime":1803.916,"body":"injection I ever attempted."},{"startTime":1804.156,"endTime":1807.036,"body":"And it worked, which totally"},{"startTime":1804.156,"endTime":1807.036,"body":"ruined me for vulnerability"},{"startTime":1807.036,"endTime":1807.996,"body":"research ever after that."},{"startTime":1808.026,"endTime":1809.106,"body":"'cause I'd always"},{"startTime":1808.026,"endTime":1809.106,"body":"think that would work."},{"startTime":1809.106,"endTime":1812.076,"body":"And it almost like you, you"},{"startTime":1809.106,"endTime":1812.076,"body":"never get blatant SQL injection"},{"startTime":1812.076,"endTime":1813.006,"body":"vulnerabilities like that."},{"startTime":1813.006,"endTime":1814.596,"body":"But I did in that one"},{"startTime":1813.006,"endTime":1814.596,"body":"instance and thought"},{"startTime":1814.596,"endTime":1815.406,"body":"they were that common."},{"startTime":1815.616,"endTime":1817.506,"body":"But like, so like when"},{"startTime":1815.616,"endTime":1817.506,"body":"we discovered seql,"},{"startTime":1817.54,"endTime":1817.87,"body":"when,"},{"startTime":1818.196,"endTime":1820.026,"body":"we first published"},{"startTime":1818.196,"endTime":1820.026,"body":"Stack overflows, right?"},{"startTime":1820.056,"endTime":1823.026,"body":"There's a clear before and"},{"startTime":1820.056,"endTime":1823.026,"body":"after, um, to enablement for"},{"startTime":1823.026,"endTime":1826.056,"body":"Stack Overflow vulnerabilities,"},{"startTime":1823.026,"endTime":1826.056,"body":"before lots of software"},{"startTime":1826.18,"endTime":1827.65,"body":"it's know resilient"},{"startTime":1827.976,"endTime":1830.346,"body":"And then after the entire"},{"startTime":1827.976,"endTime":1830.346,"body":"internet was vulnerable."},{"startTime":1830.346,"endTime":1832.926,"body":"And in those moments"},{"startTime":1830.346,"endTime":1832.926,"body":"it's really material."},{"startTime":1833.268,"endTime":1834.918,"body":"The vulnerabilities that"},{"startTime":1833.268,"endTime":1834.918,"body":"you're finding right in"},{"startTime":1834.918,"endTime":1837.138,"body":"those moments, it actually"},{"startTime":1834.918,"endTime":1837.138,"body":"really matters a lot that"},{"startTime":1837.138,"endTime":1838.038,"body":"there are all these new vol."},{"startTime":1838.038,"endTime":1840.288,"body":"It becomes the dominant"},{"startTime":1838.038,"endTime":1840.288,"body":"vector that things get"},{"startTime":1840.288,"endTime":1842.658,"body":"popped with, um, until you"},{"startTime":1840.288,"endTime":1842.658,"body":"kind of figure that out."},{"startTime":1842.838,"endTime":1846.438,"body":"And I'm not as certain as, I"},{"startTime":1842.838,"endTime":1846.438,"body":"think the implicit assumptions"},{"startTime":1846.438,"endTime":1848.718,"body":"in this conversation are"},{"startTime":1846.438,"endTime":1848.718,"body":"that we're not gonna see"},{"startTime":1848.718,"endTime":1849.978,"body":"more things like that."},{"startTime":1850.218,"endTime":1853.518,"body":"So, um, you know, side channel"},{"startTime":1850.218,"endTime":1853.518,"body":"attacks are a good example"},{"startTime":1853.518,"endTime":1855.948,"body":"of where there's like lots"},{"startTime":1853.518,"endTime":1855.948,"body":"of kind of intellectually"},{"startTime":1855.948,"endTime":1858.258,"body":"understood vulnerabilities"},{"startTime":1855.948,"endTime":1858.258,"body":"that we don't viscerally"},{"startTime":1858.258,"endTime":1861.048,"body":"feel and we don't deal with"},{"startTime":1858.258,"endTime":1861.048,"body":"because there isn't enough"},{"startTime":1861.048,"endTime":1863.598,"body":"elite attention to develop"},{"startTime":1861.048,"endTime":1863.598,"body":"them into real vulnerabilities."},{"startTime":1863.808,"endTime":1868.068,"body":"How certain are the three"},{"startTime":1863.808,"endTime":1868.068,"body":"of you that, like all go"},{"startTime":1868.068,"endTime":1870.468,"body":"memory, race vulnerabilities"},{"startTime":1868.068,"endTime":1870.468,"body":"are not gonna really be"},{"startTime":1870.468,"endTime":1871.548,"body":"practically exploitable?"},{"startTime":1871.938,"endTime":1872.358,"body":"Um."},{"startTime":1873.48,"endTime":1877.47,"body":"So I, I, I think you're sort"},{"startTime":1873.48,"endTime":1877.47,"body":"of, you know, inching toward"},{"startTime":1877.47,"endTime":1880.05,"body":"this sort of, you know,"},{"startTime":1877.47,"endTime":1880.05,"body":"a GI question here, maybe"},{"startTime":1880.372,"endTime":1881.362,"body":"Is that a GI?"},{"startTime":1881.362,"endTime":1882.892,"body":"It's like it's"},{"startTime":1882.9,"endTime":1885.15,"body":"We declare a GI Once you can ex"},{"startTime":1885.297,"endTime":1885.537,"body":"GI."},{"startTime":1885.748,"endTime":1886.198,"body":"Uh,"},{"startTime":1886.498,"endTime":1888.03,"body":"exploiting a go raise condition."},{"startTime":1888.03,"endTime":1888.765,"body":"A GI confirmed."},{"startTime":1889.628,"endTime":1892.418,"body":"Yeah, no, I, I, I think,"},{"startTime":1889.628,"endTime":1892.418,"body":"you know, on, on to, to some"},{"startTime":1892.418,"endTime":1895.148,"body":"extent, you know, all, all,"},{"startTime":1892.418,"endTime":1895.148,"body":"all that I have seen so far"},{"startTime":1895.148,"endTime":1901.268,"body":"is that LLMs are very good"},{"startTime":1895.148,"endTime":1901.268,"body":"scaling the methods that"},{"startTime":1901.268,"endTime":1904.238,"body":"we've been using in the past"},{"startTime":1901.268,"endTime":1904.238,"body":"and finding the problems that"},{"startTime":1904.238,"endTime":1905.468,"body":"we've been finding in the past."},{"startTime":1905.918,"endTime":1908.048,"body":"Uh, now I think, you"},{"startTime":1905.918,"endTime":1908.048,"body":"know, there's also"},{"startTime":1908.272,"endTime":1908.512,"body":"like."},{"startTime":1910.068,"endTime":1913.488,"body":"Less numerous data points from"},{"startTime":1910.068,"endTime":1913.488,"body":"other fields that they are"},{"startTime":1913.488,"endTime":1917.418,"body":"actually so good at combining"},{"startTime":1913.488,"endTime":1917.418,"body":"and synthesizing information"},{"startTime":1917.778,"endTime":1920.178,"body":"from the sort of, you know,"},{"startTime":1917.778,"endTime":1920.178,"body":"training corpus that they arrive"},{"startTime":1920.178,"endTime":1924.408,"body":"at completely new conclusions,"},{"startTime":1920.178,"endTime":1924.408,"body":"completely new findings."},{"startTime":1924.408,"endTime":1927.918,"body":"Like, you know, like"},{"startTime":1924.408,"endTime":1927.918,"body":"fundamentally new math, right?"},{"startTime":1927.918,"endTime":1928.338,"body":"And so on."},{"startTime":1929.028,"endTime":1933.588,"body":"Uh, and I, I, you know, like,"},{"startTime":1929.028,"endTime":1933.588,"body":"I think you're asking about"},{"startTime":1933.588,"endTime":1934.876,"body":"unknown unknowns, right?"},{"startTime":1935.176,"endTime":1935.296,"body":"Like,"},{"startTime":1935.596,"endTime":1938.808,"body":"a future where we, it,"},{"startTime":1935.596,"endTime":1938.808,"body":"actually turns out that"},{"startTime":1938.808,"endTime":1942.318,"body":"there's a, an, know, nearly"},{"startTime":1938.808,"endTime":1942.318,"body":"inac accessible supply of"},{"startTime":1942.318,"endTime":1943.908,"body":"zero days in openness, sage"},{"startTime":1944.236,"endTime":1945.826,"body":"in places"},{"startTime":1946.248,"endTime":1947.508,"body":"even thinking about."},{"startTime":1948.288,"endTime":1948.888,"body":"Uh,"},{"startTime":1949.216,"endTime":1949.696,"body":"but I, you"},{"startTime":1949.968,"endTime":1950.418,"body":"I, have no"},{"startTime":1950.548,"endTime":1950.788,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1951.048,"endTime":1951.738,"body":"or disprove that,"},{"startTime":1952.038,"endTime":1953.56,"body":"Hold on in, hold on."},{"startTime":1953.77,"endTime":1956.41,"body":"In fairness, I wanna say I"},{"startTime":1953.77,"endTime":1956.41,"body":"actually don't think we're gonna"},{"startTime":1956.41,"endTime":1959.44,"body":"get like a bottomless supply of"},{"startTime":1956.41,"endTime":1959.44,"body":"openness stage vulnerabilities."},{"startTime":1959.44,"endTime":1962.56,"body":"I have like a, despite it being"},{"startTime":1959.44,"endTime":1962.56,"body":"an old school C code base, I"},{"startTime":1962.612,"endTime":1963.002,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1963.01,"endTime":1964.96,"body":"high opinion of the"},{"startTime":1963.01,"endTime":1964.96,"body":"openness stage code base."},{"startTime":1964.96,"endTime":1965.29,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1965.47,"endTime":1966.88,"body":"I'm actually thinking"},{"startTime":1965.47,"endTime":1966.88,"body":"of things where"},{"startTime":1966.968,"endTime":1967.208,"body":"like"},{"startTime":1967.6,"endTime":1970.39,"body":"I have a nagging suspicion that"},{"startTime":1967.6,"endTime":1970.39,"body":"there are already things there."},{"startTime":1970.57,"endTime":1974.47,"body":"And to me it's not as much"},{"startTime":1970.57,"endTime":1974.47,"body":"about advancing LLM like"},{"startTime":1974.47,"endTime":1976.75,"body":"frontier model capabilities,"},{"startTime":1974.47,"endTime":1976.75,"body":"although that's a factor."},{"startTime":1976.96,"endTime":1981.4,"body":"It's not as much that as it"},{"startTime":1976.96,"endTime":1981.4,"body":"is the new abundance we have"},{"startTime":1981.4,"endTime":1982.89,"body":"of elite attention, right?"},{"startTime":1983.19,"endTime":1983.58,"body":"where Like"},{"startTime":1983.98,"endTime":1986.65,"body":"it doesn't take that much"},{"startTime":1983.98,"endTime":1986.65,"body":"time for me to set up the"},{"startTime":1986.65,"endTime":1989.53,"body":"conditions to like do, you"},{"startTime":1986.65,"endTime":1989.53,"body":"know, a side channel testing"},{"startTime":1989.53,"endTime":1991.33,"body":"harness across the internet"},{"startTime":1989.53,"endTime":1991.33,"body":"or something like that."},{"startTime":1991.57,"endTime":1994.09,"body":"Where like I, I'd have to do"},{"startTime":1991.57,"endTime":1994.09,"body":"a whole lot of studying and"},{"startTime":1994.09,"endTime":1996.79,"body":"research and like trial and"},{"startTime":1994.09,"endTime":1996.79,"body":"error to get that, like those"},{"startTime":1996.79,"endTime":1999.1,"body":"harnesses set up for myself"},{"startTime":1996.79,"endTime":1999.1,"body":"to do that kind of testing."},{"startTime":1999.1,"endTime":2001.29,"body":"And now I can just dispatch"},{"startTime":1999.1,"endTime":2001.29,"body":"it and have it done."},{"startTime":2001.65,"endTime":2003.36,"body":"Um, like it's, it."},{"startTime":2003.42,"endTime":2006.45,"body":"So I feel like the really"},{"startTime":2003.42,"endTime":2006.45,"body":"high end vulnerability"},{"startTime":2006.45,"endTime":2009.39,"body":"research has been for"},{"startTime":2006.45,"endTime":2009.39,"body":"the past 20 years done by"},{"startTime":2009.927,"endTime":2010.007,"body":"Like"},{"startTime":2010.804,"endTime":2012.754,"body":"A reasonably large number"},{"startTime":2010.804,"endTime":2012.754,"body":"of people, but it's still"},{"startTime":2012.754,"endTime":2015.244,"body":"an elite in the industry"},{"startTime":2012.754,"endTime":2015.244,"body":"and I don't like that."},{"startTime":2015.322,"endTime":2015.562,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":2015.904,"endTime":2017.464,"body":"that's always been"},{"startTime":2015.904,"endTime":2017.464,"body":"kind of bullshit."},{"startTime":2017.614,"endTime":2019.774,"body":"And like, one of my big"},{"startTime":2017.614,"endTime":2019.774,"body":"things is just I don't think"},{"startTime":2019.774,"endTime":2021.574,"body":"that the people doing this"},{"startTime":2019.774,"endTime":2021.574,"body":"work on the high end are"},{"startTime":2021.574,"endTime":2025.564,"body":"really in any fundamental"},{"startTime":2021.574,"endTime":2025.564,"body":"sense, more gifted or capable"},{"startTime":2025.564,"endTime":2027.274,"body":"than any other engineer."},{"startTime":2027.274,"endTime":2029.494,"body":"They just, they, they've been"},{"startTime":2027.274,"endTime":2029.494,"body":"inducted into the field and"},{"startTime":2029.494,"endTime":2030.874,"body":"they get to do that work, right?"},{"startTime":2031.234,"endTime":2034.534,"body":"And like, I think the bottom"},{"startTime":2031.234,"endTime":2034.534,"body":"has fallen out of that, right?"},{"startTime":2034.534,"endTime":2038.824,"body":"And so now if you imagine"},{"startTime":2034.534,"endTime":2038.824,"body":"10, a hundred times more"},{"startTime":2038.824,"endTime":2041.344,"body":"people being able to do that"},{"startTime":2038.824,"endTime":2041.344,"body":"work because it's no longer"},{"startTime":2041.344,"endTime":2044.554,"body":"as time consuming, I think"},{"startTime":2041.344,"endTime":2044.554,"body":"a lot more things get kind"},{"startTime":2044.554,"endTime":2047.164,"body":"of proved out than would've"},{"startTime":2044.554,"endTime":2047.164,"body":"gotten proved out before."},{"startTime":2047.578,"endTime":2051.298,"body":"like, know, like where do you"},{"startTime":2047.578,"endTime":2051.298,"body":"even get the knowledge to start"},{"startTime":2051.298,"endTime":2054.178,"body":"the thing that requires, like,"},{"startTime":2051.298,"endTime":2054.178,"body":"that also requires time, but it,"},{"startTime":2054.253,"endTime":2059.068,"body":"it requires some sort of like"},{"startTime":2054.253,"endTime":2059.068,"body":"en entry point of like, how do"},{"startTime":2059.068,"endTime":2061.018,"body":"I even get started on this path?"},{"startTime":2061.138,"endTime":2063.148,"body":"And now you don't even"},{"startTime":2061.138,"endTime":2063.148,"body":"have to know anything."},{"startTime":2063.148,"endTime":2065.128,"body":"You just like, go"},{"startTime":2063.148,"endTime":2065.128,"body":"look for VUL in place."},{"startTime":2065.128,"endTime":2066.208,"body":"Like, here's your guide."},{"startTime":2066.208,"endTime":2067.918,"body":"Start here, enter here."},{"startTime":2068.278,"endTime":2071.338,"body":"And it will find something"},{"startTime":2068.278,"endTime":2071.338,"body":"more, more likely than not."},{"startTime":2071.698,"endTime":2074.278,"body":"Uh, if it's a, if there is a VUL"},{"startTime":2071.698,"endTime":2074.278,"body":"there, it won't, you know, maybe"},{"startTime":2074.278,"endTime":2075.808,"body":"it'll hallucinate something"},{"startTime":2074.278,"endTime":2075.808,"body":"that's not really there."},{"startTime":2075.808,"endTime":2078.343,"body":"But then you can write a test"},{"startTime":2075.808,"endTime":2078.343,"body":"that'll actually, it'll ask"},{"startTime":2078.343,"endTime":2080.578,"body":"it to write a test to be like,"},{"startTime":2078.343,"endTime":2080.578,"body":"confirm that this is broken."},{"startTime":2080.878,"endTime":2084.058,"body":"So there's, it's, it's not even"},{"startTime":2080.878,"endTime":2084.058,"body":"just the time amplifier, but"},{"startTime":2084.058,"endTime":2087.058,"body":"like, there's a lot of stuff"},{"startTime":2084.058,"endTime":2087.058,"body":"that you used to be, have to"},{"startTime":2087.058,"endTime":2090.508,"body":"be able to know what to ask"},{"startTime":2087.058,"endTime":2090.508,"body":"or know where to start or know"},{"startTime":2090.508,"endTime":2094.108,"body":"how to approach a thing, um,"},{"startTime":2090.508,"endTime":2094.108,"body":"that you, you basically have"},{"startTime":2094.108,"endTime":2095.998,"body":"a, a very powerful shortcut on."},{"startTime":2096.998,"endTime":2100.648,"body":"I, I, would say this, I"},{"startTime":2096.998,"endTime":2100.648,"body":"think that a lot of money and"},{"startTime":2100.648,"endTime":2104.518,"body":"compute has been thrown at"},{"startTime":2100.648,"endTime":2104.518,"body":"this problem by the Frontier"},{"startTime":2104.518,"endTime":2108.238,"body":"Labs over the past couple of,"},{"startTime":2104.518,"endTime":2108.238,"body":"you know, weeks or months."},{"startTime":2108.298,"endTime":2112.094,"body":"And we are gonna start"},{"startTime":2108.298,"endTime":2112.094,"body":"seeing, uh, trickle or, or a"},{"startTime":2112.394,"endTime":2112.454,"body":"we,"},{"startTime":2112.738,"endTime":2114.928,"body":"mean, we, we, we have"},{"startTime":2112.738,"endTime":2114.928,"body":"already started seeing some"},{"startTime":2114.944,"endTime":2115.304,"body":"some of the,"},{"startTime":2115.918,"endTime":2116.398,"body":"the sort of, you"},{"startTime":2116.534,"endTime":2116.834,"body":"you know,"},{"startTime":2117.178,"endTime":2118.798,"body":"public results from that."},{"startTime":2119.278,"endTime":2122.998,"body":"My understanding of, you know,"},{"startTime":2119.278,"endTime":2122.998,"body":"what I've seen so far and"},{"startTime":2122.998,"endTime":2127.738,"body":"what I can talk about is that"},{"startTime":2122.998,"endTime":2127.738,"body":"they are not fundamentally"},{"startTime":2127.738,"endTime":2130.214,"body":"different from, again,"},{"startTime":2130.514,"endTime":2130.754,"body":"you know,"},{"startTime":2130.978,"endTime":2134.908,"body":"the, kind of vulnerabilities,"},{"startTime":2130.978,"endTime":2134.908,"body":"kinds of targets, the kinds"},{"startTime":2134.908,"endTime":2137.158,"body":"of attack surfaces that"},{"startTime":2134.908,"endTime":2137.158,"body":"we've been seeing before."},{"startTime":2137.869,"endTime":2138.109,"body":"I think"},{"startTime":2138.748,"endTime":2142.828,"body":"that doesn't disprove your,"},{"startTime":2138.748,"endTime":2142.828,"body":"your theory, but I think the."},{"startTime":2144.372,"endTime":2145.422,"body":"It, it would hinge."},{"startTime":2145.422,"endTime":2149.652,"body":"I think we would depend on"},{"startTime":2145.422,"endTime":2149.652,"body":"some, you know, additional"},{"startTime":2149.652,"endTime":2152.802,"body":"breakthrough breakthroughs"},{"startTime":2149.652,"endTime":2152.802,"body":"before we get to this point"},{"startTime":2152.802,"endTime":2156.516,"body":"where you can point 5.5"},{"startTime":2156.816,"endTime":2157.116,"body":"or"},{"startTime":2157.662,"endTime":2158.592,"body":"or whatever at,"},{"startTime":2158.892,"endTime":2159.066,"body":"uh,"},{"startTime":2160.392,"endTime":2163.332,"body":"at Chrome and come up with"},{"startTime":2160.392,"endTime":2163.332,"body":"completely in your classes"},{"startTime":2163.332,"endTime":2164.472,"body":"of vulnerabilities or,"},{"startTime":2164.586,"endTime":2164.946,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":2166.362,"endTime":2166.662,"body":"again,"},{"startTime":2166.964,"endTime":2167.474,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2167.562,"endTime":2168.186,"body":"of the kind"},{"startTime":2168.486,"endTime":2168.696,"body":"stuff."},{"startTime":2169.092,"endTime":2171.342,"body":"we, we, thought are not"},{"startTime":2169.092,"endTime":2171.342,"body":"exploitable in past."},{"startTime":2171.522,"endTime":2172.032,"body":"Like, I think"},{"startTime":2172.061,"endTime":2172.111,"body":"I,"},{"startTime":2172.411,"endTime":2173.922,"body":"possible like it"},{"startTime":2172.411,"endTime":2173.922,"body":"happened before."},{"startTime":2174.814,"endTime":2176.344,"body":"not what I, that's"},{"startTime":2174.814,"endTime":2176.344,"body":"not what I think."},{"startTime":2176.344,"endTime":2176.584,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2176.584,"endTime":2179.644,"body":"Like, so there's, the big"},{"startTime":2176.584,"endTime":2179.644,"body":"thing with Mythos has always"},{"startTime":2179.644,"endTime":2183.034,"body":"been Nicholas Carini being"},{"startTime":2179.644,"endTime":2183.034,"body":"able to aim those frontier"},{"startTime":2183.034,"endTime":2185.824,"body":"models at a piece of software"},{"startTime":2183.034,"endTime":2185.824,"body":"and just say, give me a"},{"startTime":2185.824,"endTime":2187.714,"body":"zero day exploit, right?"},{"startTime":2187.804,"endTime":2190.174,"body":"And those words put together and"},{"startTime":2187.804,"endTime":2190.174,"body":"getting real output from that"},{"startTime":2190.191,"endTime":2190.351,"body":"was"},{"startTime":2190.749,"endTime":2191.704,"body":"a huge thing."},{"startTime":2192.049,"endTime":2194.764,"body":"I, I, I, that's, it's, it,"},{"startTime":2192.049,"endTime":2194.764,"body":"that's a real thing, right?"},{"startTime":2195.202,"endTime":2195.472,"body":"like,"},{"startTime":2195.934,"endTime":2199.624,"body":"I'm not coming from a place"},{"startTime":2195.934,"endTime":2199.624,"body":"of, you know, pointing, you"},{"startTime":2199.624,"endTime":2202.444,"body":"know, a frontier model at a"},{"startTime":2199.624,"endTime":2202.444,"body":"code base and saying, come up"},{"startTime":2202.444,"endTime":2204.064,"body":"with an entirely new bug class."},{"startTime":2204.828,"endTime":2205.998,"body":"just gonna figure that out."},{"startTime":2206.868,"endTime":2209.178,"body":"more coming from like,"},{"startTime":2206.868,"endTime":2209.178,"body":"do you really not have"},{"startTime":2209.178,"endTime":2210.228,"body":"nagging suspicions?"},{"startTime":2210.378,"endTime":2212.448,"body":"So first of all, this"},{"startTime":2210.378,"endTime":2212.448,"body":"might just be me, right?"},{"startTime":2212.628,"endTime":2215.358,"body":"It might just be because I"},{"startTime":2212.628,"endTime":2215.358,"body":"learned all the computer science"},{"startTime":2215.358,"endTime":2218.898,"body":"I learned by reading exploits,"},{"startTime":2215.358,"endTime":2218.898,"body":"but like, it's like, it's like"},{"startTime":2219.108,"endTime":2221.958,"body":"all I think about is like what?"},{"startTime":2221.958,"endTime":2225.288,"body":"Like what the new bug classes"},{"startTime":2221.958,"endTime":2225.288,"body":"are gonna be like, specter,"},{"startTime":2225.378,"endTime":2226.578,"body":"like that was amazing for me."},{"startTime":2226.578,"endTime":2226.728,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2226.728,"endTime":2227.598,"body":"Like things like that."},{"startTime":2227.598,"endTime":2230.088,"body":"Like those are, that's the"},{"startTime":2227.598,"endTime":2230.088,"body":"punctuation for this whole kind"},{"startTime":2230.088,"endTime":2231.648,"body":"of career that I have, right?"},{"startTime":2231.678,"endTime":2232.548,"body":"So it's like I'm always thinking"},{"startTime":2232.548,"endTime":2232.758,"body":"about"},{"startTime":2233.118,"endTime":2233.268,"body":"what"},{"startTime":2233.303,"endTime":2233.463,"body":"the,"},{"startTime":2233.808,"endTime":2237.348,"body":"what weird things could turn"},{"startTime":2233.808,"endTime":2237.348,"body":"out to be entire bug classes."},{"startTime":2237.528,"endTime":2238.938,"body":"Do you not have"},{"startTime":2237.528,"endTime":2238.938,"body":"anything like that?"},{"startTime":2238.938,"endTime":2239.808,"body":"Do you not think that way?"},{"startTime":2239.808,"endTime":2241.578,"body":"Are you not a"},{"startTime":2239.808,"endTime":2241.578,"body":"vulnerability researcher?"},{"startTime":2242.289,"endTime":2244.244,"body":"I, I, have a lot of thing"},{"startTime":2242.289,"endTime":2244.244,"body":"like, you know, there, there's"},{"startTime":2244.244,"endTime":2246.524,"body":"a lot of places, there's a"},{"startTime":2244.244,"endTime":2246.524,"body":"lot of rocks that I think"},{"startTime":2246.524,"endTime":2247.604,"body":"we have not peaked under."},{"startTime":2247.694,"endTime":2250.064,"body":"And I, and I think LLMs are"},{"startTime":2247.694,"endTime":2250.064,"body":"gonna, like, you know, in"},{"startTime":2250.064,"endTime":2252.198,"body":"the embedded world, which"},{"startTime":2250.064,"endTime":2252.198,"body":"is, you know, something I,"},{"startTime":2252.498,"endTime":2252.678,"body":"I'm"},{"startTime":2253.004,"endTime":2254.894,"body":"spending a lot of time with"},{"startTime":2255.733,"endTime":2255.893,"body":"hobby."},{"startTime":2256.874,"endTime":2259.634,"body":"There is a lot of absolutely"},{"startTime":2256.874,"endTime":2259.634,"body":"terrible things that are"},{"startTime":2259.634,"endTime":2260.808,"body":"absolutely everywhere right"},{"startTime":2261.108,"endTime":2261.408,"body":"now."},{"startTime":2261.708,"endTime":2265.424,"body":"I'm not talking, you know,"},{"startTime":2261.708,"endTime":2265.424,"body":"like a crappy Htt p stock on a,"},{"startTime":2265.473,"endTime":2265.593,"body":"a,"},{"startTime":2265.604,"endTime":2267.134,"body":"a more, fundamental"},{"startTime":2265.604,"endTime":2267.134,"body":"level, right."},{"startTime":2267.134,"endTime":2269.004,"body":"Like, you know, the"},{"startTime":2267.134,"endTime":2269.004,"body":"radios and, and, and"},{"startTime":2269.304,"endTime":2270.536,"body":"RF for, for, yeah."},{"startTime":2270.836,"endTime":2274.664,"body":"And, and I think this is, but,"},{"startTime":2270.836,"endTime":2274.664,"body":"but at the same time, you know."},{"startTime":2276.5,"endTime":2277.01,"body":"So, yeah, I"},{"startTime":2277.086,"endTime":2277.206,"body":"I"},{"startTime":2277.506,"endTime":2279.92,"body":"we're gonna unlock a lot"},{"startTime":2277.506,"endTime":2279.92,"body":"of interesting things."},{"startTime":2279.98,"endTime":2281.24,"body":"Does that, is"},{"startTime":2281.286,"endTime":2281.446,"body":"it's not,"},{"startTime":2281.746,"endTime":2286.55,"body":"a fundamentally qualitative"},{"startTime":2281.746,"endTime":2286.55,"body":"change versus, you know,"},{"startTime":2286.55,"endTime":2288.786,"body":"some researcher deciding,"},{"startTime":2286.55,"endTime":2288.786,"body":"oh, actually I'm gonna"},{"startTime":2289.086,"endTime":2289.416,"body":"throw a"},{"startTime":2289.716,"endTime":2293.06,"body":"at this hardware, as, as it"},{"startTime":2289.716,"endTime":2293.06,"body":"happened many times in the past"},{"startTime":2293.856,"endTime":2294.276,"body":"and, you"},{"startTime":2294.59,"endTime":2296.36,"body":"is the actual, like,"},{"startTime":2294.59,"endTime":2296.36,"body":"you know, specter again,"},{"startTime":2296.451,"endTime":2296.66,"body":"like"},{"startTime":2297.77,"endTime":2298.4,"body":"of bugs."},{"startTime":2299.604,"endTime":2300.054,"body":"I know."},{"startTime":2300.084,"endTime":2300.894,"body":"I know what you're gonna say."},{"startTime":2300.92,"endTime":2301.31,"body":"it, like,"},{"startTime":2301.674,"endTime":2302.329,"body":"I know what you're gonna say."},{"startTime":2303.105,"endTime":2303.455,"body":"right."},{"startTime":2304.88,"endTime":2306.8,"body":"Like, I, I absolutely loved it."},{"startTime":2306.89,"endTime":2308.33,"body":"Every, every bit of it."},{"startTime":2308.33,"endTime":2308.78,"body":"And, you know,"},{"startTime":2309.012,"endTime":2309.492,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2309.5,"endTime":2311.06,"body":"amount of resources we"},{"startTime":2311.202,"endTime":2312.012,"body":"But we agree."},{"startTime":2312.012,"endTime":2313.187,"body":"We, we probably agree."},{"startTime":2313.566,"endTime":2315.246,"body":"of the trusted compute base."},{"startTime":2315.246,"endTime":2317.736,"body":"It's a lot of, it's a, it's a"},{"startTime":2315.246,"endTime":2317.736,"body":"lot of things that kind of we"},{"startTime":2317.736,"endTime":2319.116,"body":"worry about in cryptography is"},{"startTime":2319.476,"endTime":2319.806,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2320.106,"endTime":2323.586,"body":"highly difficult to exploit"},{"startTime":2320.106,"endTime":2323.586,"body":"in a lot of cases, but it's"},{"startTime":2323.586,"endTime":2325.086,"body":"the foundation of trust"},{"startTime":2325.524,"endTime":2326.064,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2326.226,"endTime":2326.796,"body":"that we build on"},{"startTime":2327.114,"endTime":2327.594,"body":"I know."},{"startTime":2327.594,"endTime":2328.314,"body":"I know."},{"startTime":2328.734,"endTime":2331.584,"body":"Fundamentally, the impact of"},{"startTime":2328.734,"endTime":2331.584,"body":"Specter was simply to make"},{"startTime":2331.584,"endTime":2332.724,"body":"all of our computers slower."},{"startTime":2332.874,"endTime":2335.334,"body":"I understand this, right,"},{"startTime":2332.874,"endTime":2335.334,"body":"but that's, you can't say"},{"startTime":2336.002,"endTime":2336.572,"body":"It could have been a"},{"startTime":2337.044,"endTime":2340.374,"body":"I, but you, you can't say"},{"startTime":2337.044,"endTime":2340.374,"body":"that about SQL injection."},{"startTime":2340.404,"endTime":2343.224,"body":"Fundamentally, the"},{"startTime":2340.404,"endTime":2343.224,"body":"popularization of SQL injection"},{"startTime":2343.464,"endTime":2346.549,"body":"materially changed the"},{"startTime":2343.464,"endTime":2346.549,"body":"susceptibility of, like, of,"},{"startTime":2346.554,"endTime":2348.204,"body":"of networks to attack, right?"},{"startTime":2348.294,"endTime":2349.344,"body":"Spectra didn't do that."},{"startTime":2349.464,"endTime":2350.634,"body":"SQL Injection did do that."},{"startTime":2350.634,"endTime":2352.674,"body":"SSRF more recent example, right?"},{"startTime":2353.492,"endTime":2353.732,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2353.732,"endTime":2354.032,"body":"but, but"},{"startTime":2354.22,"endTime":2354.37,"body":"I."},{"startTime":2354.67,"endTime":2357.512,"body":"again, like, you know,"},{"startTime":2354.67,"endTime":2357.512,"body":"you, you also have tools to"},{"startTime":2357.602,"endTime":2359.582,"body":"eradicate it more quickly now."},{"startTime":2359.612,"endTime":2361.322,"body":"So I think there"},{"startTime":2359.612,"endTime":2361.322,"body":"is symmetry, right?"},{"startTime":2362.822,"endTime":2365.702,"body":"we get like, you know, we,"},{"startTime":2362.822,"endTime":2365.702,"body":"we've, we've been through"},{"startTime":2365.702,"endTime":2369.242,"body":"those cycles before many times"},{"startTime":2365.702,"endTime":2369.242,"body":"before, and both on the sort"},{"startTime":2369.266,"endTime":2372.281,"body":"Probably the update the,"},{"startTime":2372.581,"endTime":2375.242,"body":"uphill portion of it when,"},{"startTime":2372.581,"endTime":2375.242,"body":"you know, someone discovers"},{"startTime":2375.242,"endTime":2378.242,"body":"exercise and it turns out that"},{"startTime":2375.242,"endTime":2378.242,"body":"you can do absolutely terrible"},{"startTime":2378.242,"endTime":2380.732,"body":"things with it, including,"},{"startTime":2378.242,"endTime":2380.732,"body":"you know, running code on"},{"startTime":2380.732,"endTime":2384.992,"body":"your device because we moved"},{"startTime":2380.732,"endTime":2384.992,"body":"everything to the web, right?"},{"startTime":2384.992,"endTime":2387.422,"body":"Including control"},{"startTime":2384.992,"endTime":2387.422,"body":"over, over endpoints."},{"startTime":2388.031,"endTime":2388.251,"body":"uh,"},{"startTime":2388.652,"endTime":2389.042,"body":"and"},{"startTime":2389.051,"endTime":2389.211,"body":"then."},{"startTime":2389.432,"endTime":2392.582,"body":"of, you know, we've seen"},{"startTime":2389.432,"endTime":2392.582,"body":"people actually make progress."},{"startTime":2393.602,"endTime":2397.112,"body":"those classes of issues goes"},{"startTime":2393.602,"endTime":2397.112,"body":"away, go, go away, right?"},{"startTime":2397.112,"endTime":2400.352,"body":"Like, you know, like if"},{"startTime":2397.112,"endTime":2400.352,"body":"you wanna find an excess"},{"startTime":2400.352,"endTime":2402.782,"body":"on google.com, you're gonna"},{"startTime":2400.352,"endTime":2402.782,"body":"have a hard time, right?"},{"startTime":2402.782,"endTime":2405.242,"body":"Because of the investments,"},{"startTime":2402.782,"endTime":2405.242,"body":"uh, that the company has"},{"startTime":2405.242,"endTime":2408.542,"body":"made into getting rid of."},{"startTime":2410.324,"endTime":2411.584,"body":"Entire class of, of"},{"startTime":2412.02,"endTime":2416.37,"body":"Into safe coating specifically,"},{"startTime":2412.02,"endTime":2416.37,"body":"like again, not mitigations like"},{"startTime":2416.474,"endTime":2416.864,"body":"Right,"},{"startTime":2417.164,"endTime":2417.39,"body":"coating."},{"startTime":2417.39,"endTime":2418.68,"body":"Stop the bug at the source."},{"startTime":2419.234,"endTime":2422.654,"body":"so, so I think, you know,"},{"startTime":2419.234,"endTime":2422.654,"body":"like, like if you're, if you're"},{"startTime":2422.654,"endTime":2425.354,"body":"asking me if security is gonna"},{"startTime":2422.654,"endTime":2425.354,"body":"be interesting for the next"},{"startTime":2425.354,"endTime":2426.614,"body":"couple of years, absolutely."},{"startTime":2427.364,"endTime":2430.424,"body":"And vulnerability research"},{"startTime":2427.364,"endTime":2430.424,"body":"is gonna be interesting."},{"startTime":2430.424,"endTime":2434.204,"body":"And a lot of other, you"},{"startTime":2430.424,"endTime":2434.204,"body":"know, attack and defense"},{"startTime":2434.204,"endTime":2437.834,"body":"related, aspects of it"},{"startTime":2434.204,"endTime":2437.834,"body":"are gonna be fun as well."},{"startTime":2438.614,"endTime":2439.244,"body":"again, again,"},{"startTime":2439.386,"endTime":2439.956,"body":"like, you know,"},{"startTime":2440.294,"endTime":2440.654,"body":"and I"},{"startTime":2440.826,"endTime":2441.066,"body":"guess,"},{"startTime":2441.434,"endTime":2443.114,"body":"it's, a question of"},{"startTime":2441.434,"endTime":2443.114,"body":"where we drove the line"},{"startTime":2443.114,"endTime":2446.564,"body":"between apocalypse and,"},{"startTime":2443.114,"endTime":2446.564,"body":"and and business as usual."},{"startTime":2446.564,"endTime":2446.894,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2446.924,"endTime":2449.984,"body":"And maybe we are just"},{"startTime":2446.924,"endTime":2449.984,"body":"defining it a bit differently."},{"startTime":2450.866,"endTime":2453.086,"body":"didn't come up with bug"},{"startTime":2450.866,"endTime":2453.086,"body":"apocalypse or whatever."},{"startTime":2453.086,"endTime":2454.766,"body":"It's, I don't think there's"},{"startTime":2453.086,"endTime":2454.766,"body":"any apocalypses coming."},{"startTime":2454.796,"endTime":2455.066,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2455.066,"endTime":2456.206,"body":"We'll, we'll figure it."},{"startTime":2456.206,"endTime":2458.666,"body":"I think the RF thing is like"},{"startTime":2456.206,"endTime":2458.666,"body":"such a good example just"},{"startTime":2458.666,"endTime":2461.636,"body":"because of, so many times I"},{"startTime":2458.666,"endTime":2461.636,"body":"had the experience of being"},{"startTime":2461.636,"endTime":2464.516,"body":"on projects where there was"},{"startTime":2461.636,"endTime":2464.516,"body":"an RF target and like we'd go"},{"startTime":2464.516,"endTime":2467.936,"body":"in and like everyone wanted to"},{"startTime":2464.516,"endTime":2467.936,"body":"like get good at canoe radio"},{"startTime":2467.936,"endTime":2470.426,"body":"or whatever people were using"},{"startTime":2467.936,"endTime":2470.426,"body":"like SDRs and all that, right?"},{"startTime":2470.426,"endTime":2473.186,"body":"And like by your second"},{"startTime":2470.426,"endTime":2473.186,"body":"project, you just knew going"},{"startTime":2473.186,"endTime":2474.806,"body":"into that like, no, you're"},{"startTime":2473.186,"endTime":2474.806,"body":"not gonna do anything with"},{"startTime":2474.806,"endTime":2476.546,"body":"an SDR for this RF target."},{"startTime":2476.546,"endTime":2478.946,"body":"You have no idea how complicated"},{"startTime":2476.546,"endTime":2478.946,"body":"it is to actually get a"},{"startTime":2478.946,"endTime":2479.966,"body":"protocol up and running like"},{"startTime":2480.0,"endTime":2480.18,"body":"that,"},{"startTime":2480.656,"endTime":2484.346,"body":"Inevitably you're just going to"},{"startTime":2480.656,"endTime":2484.346,"body":"do the hardware hacking to find"},{"startTime":2484.346,"endTime":2486.776,"body":"like the serial bus that you"},{"startTime":2484.346,"endTime":2486.776,"body":"can like turn this thing into"},{"startTime":2486.776,"endTime":2488.096,"body":"a modem for its own protocol."},{"startTime":2488.276,"endTime":2489.986,"body":"That might not be true"},{"startTime":2488.276,"endTime":2489.986,"body":"anymore though, right?"},{"startTime":2489.986,"endTime":2493.136,"body":"Like now, like that's, that"},{"startTime":2489.986,"endTime":2493.136,"body":"seems like a reasonable"},{"startTime":2493.136,"endTime":2494.636,"body":"task to stick an LLM on."},{"startTime":2494.846,"endTime":2496.916,"body":"'cause it's got like in"},{"startTime":2494.846,"endTime":2496.916,"body":"the training set, there"},{"startTime":2496.916,"endTime":2498.086,"body":"is all the RF knowledge."},{"startTime":2498.086,"endTime":2500.636,"body":"It's just like none of us are"},{"startTime":2498.086,"endTime":2500.636,"body":"electrical engineers, so we were"},{"startTime":2500.636,"endTime":2501.986,"body":"never trained to do that stuff."},{"startTime":2502.016,"endTime":2504.056,"body":"But like the models and"},{"startTime":2502.016,"endTime":2504.056,"body":"electrical engineers,"},{"startTime":2504.056,"endTime":2506.306,"body":"every kind of engineer"},{"startTime":2504.056,"endTime":2506.306,"body":"I, I just think that's."},{"startTime":2507.124,"endTime":2510.724,"body":"I know, I get what you're"},{"startTime":2507.124,"endTime":2510.724,"body":"saying, like like widespread"},{"startTime":2510.724,"endTime":2513.034,"body":"RF attacks probably wouldn't,"},{"startTime":2510.724,"endTime":2513.034,"body":"I don't know, maybe it'd"},{"startTime":2513.034,"endTime":2515.164,"body":"be more destabilizing"},{"startTime":2513.034,"endTime":2515.164,"body":"than Specter, but like."},{"startTime":2516.404,"endTime":2516.566,"body":"No,"},{"startTime":2516.866,"endTime":2517.166,"body":"like, you"},{"startTime":2517.466,"endTime":2520.394,"body":"could probably build some"},{"startTime":2517.466,"endTime":2520.394,"body":"cool, warm, right, and"},{"startTime":2520.724,"endTime":2523.514,"body":"like, I'm, but again, you"},{"startTime":2520.724,"endTime":2523.514,"body":"know, we, we've done that."},{"startTime":2523.574,"endTime":2524.294,"body":"We, we've been"},{"startTime":2524.404,"endTime":2525.034,"body":"What's a worm?"},{"startTime":2525.094,"endTime":2525.939,"body":"We've seen worms."},{"startTime":2526.239,"endTime":2526.529,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2526.829,"endTime":2530.856,"body":"the apocalypse isn't"},{"startTime":2526.829,"endTime":2530.856,"body":"going to be on users."},{"startTime":2530.886,"endTime":2534.936,"body":"It, the, the, the, the"},{"startTime":2530.886,"endTime":2534.936,"body":"let's classify projects"},{"startTime":2534.936,"endTime":2536.166,"body":"into like three shapes."},{"startTime":2536.526,"endTime":2540.096,"body":"There's like some stuff like"},{"startTime":2536.526,"endTime":2540.096,"body":"open SSH and boring SSL that"},{"startTime":2540.216,"endTime":2541.986,"body":"pretty much doesn't have bugs."},{"startTime":2542.346,"endTime":2542.984,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":2543.284,"endTime":2543.554,"body":"What"},{"startTime":2543.666,"endTime":2544.086,"body":"like"},{"startTime":2544.274,"endTime":2544.978,"body":"open SSL?"},{"startTime":2545.278,"endTime":2545.518,"body":"in"},{"startTime":2545.876,"endTime":2549.986,"body":"Boring ssl, specifically"},{"startTime":2545.876,"endTime":2549.986,"body":"boring SSL, which has had"},{"startTime":2549.986,"endTime":2551.246,"body":"the AIS pointed at it."},{"startTime":2551.246,"endTime":2553.736,"body":"And they have not found"},{"startTime":2551.246,"endTime":2553.736,"body":"any high severity memory"},{"startTime":2553.736,"endTime":2556.586,"body":"issues, whereas they have"},{"startTime":2553.736,"endTime":2556.586,"body":"found many in other SSLs."},{"startTime":2556.946,"endTime":2560.516,"body":"Um, and like open SSH, like,"},{"startTime":2556.946,"endTime":2560.516,"body":"there's like three people"},{"startTime":2560.516,"endTime":2562.586,"body":"in the world that can write"},{"startTime":2560.516,"endTime":2562.586,"body":"like safe C code, like,"},{"startTime":2562.591,"endTime":2564.416,"body":"uh, uh, the wire guard."},{"startTime":2564.656,"endTime":2565.976,"body":"Uh, Jason is one of them."},{"startTime":2566.186,"endTime":2569.906,"body":"But, so there's some projects"},{"startTime":2566.186,"endTime":2569.906,"body":"that like, we've actually"},{"startTime":2569.906,"endTime":2570.746,"body":"managed to make safe."},{"startTime":2571.136,"endTime":2573.116,"body":"There's another set of"},{"startTime":2571.136,"endTime":2573.116,"body":"projects that just like don't"},{"startTime":2573.116,"endTime":2574.196,"body":"actually matter that much."},{"startTime":2574.916,"endTime":2577.316,"body":"then there's the like, set"},{"startTime":2574.916,"endTime":2577.316,"body":"of projects that are like"},{"startTime":2577.316,"endTime":2578.936,"body":"actually juicy exploit targets."},{"startTime":2579.206,"endTime":2581.156,"body":"And I think we're all loosely"},{"startTime":2579.206,"endTime":2581.156,"body":"in agreement that those"},{"startTime":2581.156,"endTime":2583.946,"body":"will not, that, that like,"},{"startTime":2581.156,"endTime":2583.946,"body":"we're not really expecting"},{"startTime":2583.946,"endTime":2584.966,"body":"a ton more exploitation."},{"startTime":2584.966,"endTime":2587.036,"body":"Like maybe it's a risk, like"},{"startTime":2584.966,"endTime":2587.036,"body":"we'll see what happens with"},{"startTime":2587.036,"endTime":2589.976,"body":"the market dynamics, but."},{"startTime":2590.797,"endTime":2594.312,"body":"The, the, the apocalypse there"},{"startTime":2590.797,"endTime":2594.312,"body":"is on the engineering teams of"},{"startTime":2594.312,"endTime":2598.602,"body":"those products because you have"},{"startTime":2594.312,"endTime":2598.602,"body":"more and more bugs than ever."},{"startTime":2598.932,"endTime":2602.352,"body":"And there's, there's not"},{"startTime":2598.932,"endTime":2602.352,"body":"a good way to prioritize,"},{"startTime":2602.682,"endTime":2604.092,"body":"like how you handle this."},{"startTime":2604.332,"endTime":2607.062,"body":"You need to be taking the"},{"startTime":2604.332,"endTime":2607.062,"body":"set of bugs and turning it"},{"startTime":2607.062,"endTime":2609.822,"body":"into like a queue of actually"},{"startTime":2607.062,"endTime":2609.822,"body":"preventative actions, not"},{"startTime":2609.822,"endTime":2612.462,"body":"just mitigations, because you"},{"startTime":2609.822,"endTime":2612.462,"body":"need preventative actions to"},{"startTime":2612.462,"endTime":2615.522,"body":"like save the time of an Im of"},{"startTime":2612.462,"endTime":2615.522,"body":"the actual engineering teams."},{"startTime":2615.942,"endTime":2617.532,"body":"And if you just choose"},{"startTime":2615.942,"endTime":2617.532,"body":"to say, you know."},{"startTime":2618.9,"endTime":2622.14,"body":"Well, exploitation was"},{"startTime":2618.9,"endTime":2622.14,"body":"already like, um, demand"},{"startTime":2622.14,"endTime":2623.04,"body":"bound, not supply bound."},{"startTime":2623.04,"endTime":2626.04,"body":"So it doesn't matter, like"},{"startTime":2623.04,"endTime":2626.04,"body":"doing nothing will result"},{"startTime":2626.04,"endTime":2628.14,"body":"in the jevons paradox and"},{"startTime":2626.04,"endTime":2628.14,"body":"like bad things happening."},{"startTime":2628.14,"endTime":2629.04,"body":"So you have to do something."},{"startTime":2629.07,"endTime":2632.01,"body":"And so apocalypse is just like,"},{"startTime":2629.07,"endTime":2632.01,"body":"you have this massive queue"},{"startTime":2632.01,"endTime":2636.18,"body":"of interrupt work, um, that"},{"startTime":2632.01,"endTime":2636.18,"body":"is saying like, uh, you got 20"},{"startTime":2636.18,"endTime":2638.61,"body":"million lines of c plus plus and"},{"startTime":2636.18,"endTime":2638.61,"body":"Chrome, while not all of them"},{"startTime":2638.61,"endTime":2640.17,"body":"are gonna be winners, right?"},{"startTime":2640.23,"endTime":2640.926,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":2641.226,"endTime":2641.526,"body":"Yeah, And."},{"startTime":2641.826,"endTime":2645.57,"body":"and, if it's one bug per like"},{"startTime":2641.826,"endTime":2645.57,"body":"a thousand lines, that's,"},{"startTime":2645.62,"endTime":2645.89,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2646.19,"endTime":2648.27,"body":"20,000 high severity bugs."},{"startTime":2648.36,"endTime":2651.81,"body":"And if an AI finds 10 a"},{"startTime":2648.36,"endTime":2651.81,"body":"day, well, I'll see you"},{"startTime":2651.81,"endTime":2653.4,"body":"in like three to 10 years."},{"startTime":2653.62,"endTime":2653.83,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2653.846,"endTime":2657.506,"body":"And that's not even including"},{"startTime":2653.846,"endTime":2657.506,"body":"like, you know, up the past"},{"startTime":2657.506,"endTime":2659.816,"body":"couple of months, couple"},{"startTime":2657.506,"endTime":2659.816,"body":"of years, like there's"},{"startTime":2659.816,"endTime":2663.746,"body":"been sloppy reports to bug"},{"startTime":2659.816,"endTime":2663.746,"body":"bounty programs and, and bug"},{"startTime":2663.746,"endTime":2664.976,"body":"trackers and stuff like that."},{"startTime":2665.186,"endTime":2669.596,"body":"And like you can get rid of a"},{"startTime":2665.186,"endTime":2669.596,"body":"lot of the, the crap reports."},{"startTime":2669.746,"endTime":2672.146,"body":"It's laborious, but"},{"startTime":2669.746,"endTime":2672.146,"body":"you can do it now."},{"startTime":2672.146,"endTime":2674.568,"body":"The reports are just very,"},{"startTime":2672.146,"endTime":2674.568,"body":"very good and a lot of them"},{"startTime":2674.868,"endTime":2675.228,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2675.236,"endTime":2675.528,"body":"slop."},{"startTime":2675.806,"endTime":2678.956,"body":"And that is like when they're"},{"startTime":2675.806,"endTime":2678.956,"body":"all very good and they're all"},{"startTime":2679.316,"endTime":2679.586,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2680.186,"endTime":2680.726,"body":"to deal with that"},{"startTime":2681.364,"endTime":2682.204,"body":"Can I take a minute?"},{"startTime":2682.204,"endTime":2683.254,"body":"Can I just take a minute here?"},{"startTime":2683.254,"endTime":2686.014,"body":"I, another hacker News thing"},{"startTime":2683.254,"endTime":2686.014,"body":"just blew up in my brain."},{"startTime":2686.014,"endTime":2686.434,"body":"I'm sorry."},{"startTime":2686.434,"endTime":2688.174,"body":"I'm, I'm having a"},{"startTime":2686.434,"endTime":2688.174,"body":"message board stroke."},{"startTime":2688.234,"endTime":2688.564,"body":"Okay,"},{"startTime":2688.864,"endTime":2689.584,"body":"my God."},{"startTime":2689.674,"endTime":2691.414,"body":"talk, can we talk for a second"},{"startTime":2691.528,"endTime":2693.988,"body":"need like hacker, new"},{"startTime":2691.528,"endTime":2693.988,"body":"statins or something."},{"startTime":2694.34,"endTime":2694.88,"body":"going on?"},{"startTime":2695.24,"endTime":2695.99,"body":"What are we doing?"},{"startTime":2697.108,"endTime":2700.918,"body":"Can, we talk for a second here"},{"startTime":2697.108,"endTime":2700.918,"body":"about the idea that Curl is"},{"startTime":2700.918,"endTime":2704.338,"body":"the benchmark for how effective"},{"startTime":2700.918,"endTime":2704.338,"body":"a vulnerability tool is,"},{"startTime":2704.638,"endTime":2704.914,"body":"Fuck."},{"startTime":2705.394,"endTime":2706.024,"body":"Why"},{"startTime":2706.378,"endTime":2710.998,"body":"this is complete, this is"},{"startTime":2706.378,"endTime":2710.998,"body":"entirely am I, I'm, I'm, I'm"},{"startTime":2710.998,"endTime":2713.758,"body":"waiting for, for any of the"},{"startTime":2710.998,"endTime":2713.758,"body":"three of you to tell me that"},{"startTime":2713.788,"endTime":2717.448,"body":"I'm wrong and that Curl is"},{"startTime":2713.788,"endTime":2717.448,"body":"deceptively difficult software"},{"startTime":2717.448,"endTime":2720.028,"body":"to build and that you wouldn't"},{"startTime":2717.448,"endTime":2720.028,"body":"expect it to work properly."},{"startTime":2720.208,"endTime":2722.908,"body":"'cause all I hear is like"},{"startTime":2720.208,"endTime":2722.908,"body":"Mythos didn't find awesome"},{"startTime":2722.908,"endTime":2725.248,"body":"thing, like they did a mythos"},{"startTime":2722.908,"endTime":2725.248,"body":"scan on Curl and it didn't"},{"startTime":2725.248,"endTime":2726.718,"body":"find any new curl zero days."},{"startTime":2726.718,"endTime":2729.178,"body":"It's like you could do a mythos"},{"startTime":2726.718,"endTime":2729.178,"body":"scan on cat, and I wouldn't"},{"startTime":2729.178,"endTime":2731.098,"body":"think that Cat would have zero"},{"startTime":2729.178,"endTime":2731.098,"body":"day vulnerabilities either."},{"startTime":2731.12,"endTime":2733.7,"body":"it's a little bit more"},{"startTime":2731.12,"endTime":2733.7,"body":"complicated, the cat, but"},{"startTime":2734.15,"endTime":2737.39,"body":"you know, it's not open"},{"startTime":2734.15,"endTime":2737.39,"body":"BS, D, so I wouldn't expect"},{"startTime":2737.39,"endTime":2738.8,"body":"it to be very that juicy."},{"startTime":2739.38,"endTime":2740.28,"body":"You shut your mouth."},{"startTime":2740.308,"endTime":2740.458,"body":"I."},{"startTime":2740.58,"endTime":2743.938,"body":"I, also, you know, like we,"},{"startTime":2740.58,"endTime":2743.938,"body":"we, like, I think there's"},{"startTime":2743.938,"endTime":2746.128,"body":"also the risk of like, you"},{"startTime":2743.938,"endTime":2746.128,"body":"know, I, I had, I had the"},{"startTime":2746.128,"endTime":2747.362,"body":"opposite of this conversation"},{"startTime":2747.662,"endTime":2747.992,"body":"Oh."},{"startTime":2748.463,"endTime":2752.128,"body":"with many folks many years ago"},{"startTime":2748.463,"endTime":2752.128,"body":"before AI that, you know, like,"},{"startTime":2752.188,"endTime":2755.698,"body":"uh, in, the context of some"},{"startTime":2752.188,"endTime":2755.698,"body":"of the mitigations we've, and,"},{"startTime":2755.698,"endTime":2758.218,"body":"and, and sort of, you know,"},{"startTime":2755.698,"endTime":2758.218,"body":"defenses and, and, and so, and,"},{"startTime":2758.218,"endTime":2761.368,"body":"and, and practices we've been"},{"startTime":2758.218,"endTime":2761.368,"body":"developing at Google that all"},{"startTime":2761.368,"endTime":2762.886,"body":"of this is cool, but it works"},{"startTime":2763.186,"endTime":2763.336,"body":"for"},{"startTime":2763.648,"endTime":2767.968,"body":"this one company in the world"},{"startTime":2763.648,"endTime":2767.968,"body":"sort of, you know, has a code"},{"startTime":2768.106,"endTime":2768.286,"body":"base,"},{"startTime":2768.586,"endTime":2771.268,"body":"of a, of a, sufficient"},{"startTime":2768.586,"endTime":2771.268,"body":"complexity and, and a sufficient"},{"startTime":2771.268,"endTime":2772.228,"body":"amount of funding and so on."},{"startTime":2772.348,"endTime":2772.816,"body":"And everyone"},{"startTime":2773.116,"endTime":2773.176,"body":"is"},{"startTime":2773.476,"endTime":2775.396,"body":"sort of, you know, struggling"},{"startTime":2773.476,"endTime":2775.396,"body":"with more basic problems,"},{"startTime":2775.696,"endTime":2775.966,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2776.368,"endTime":2781.258,"body":"Uh, so I think Curl is actually"},{"startTime":2776.368,"endTime":2781.258,"body":"representative of a lot of"},{"startTime":2781.258,"endTime":2782.338,"body":"what's out there, right?"},{"startTime":2782.608,"endTime":2784.078,"body":"it's, it's actually"},{"startTime":2782.608,"endTime":2784.078,"body":"a pretty good"},{"startTime":2784.5,"endTime":2784.98,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2785.068,"endTime":2786.418,"body":"base that isn't terrible."},{"startTime":2786.448,"endTime":2786.838,"body":"It's not"},{"startTime":2786.881,"endTime":2787.001,"body":"not"},{"startTime":2787.301,"endTime":2788.308,"body":"some of the, it's"},{"startTime":2788.326,"endTime":2788.506,"body":"it's"},{"startTime":2788.818,"endTime":2792.268,"body":"amp, Like you can't throw a"},{"startTime":2788.818,"endTime":2792.268,"body":"father at it and, and have like,"},{"startTime":2792.268,"endTime":2793.618,"body":"you know, 50 bucks in an hour."},{"startTime":2793.726,"endTime":2793.786,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":2794.218,"endTime":2795.808,"body":"Uh, but it's also"},{"startTime":2795.856,"endTime":2796.521,"body":"not like, you know."},{"startTime":2796.888,"endTime":2800.068,"body":"like very simple"},{"startTime":2796.888,"endTime":2800.068,"body":"trivial library that."},{"startTime":2800.246,"endTime":2801.236,"body":"Is not gonna have bugs."},{"startTime":2801.356,"endTime":2801.596,"body":"So I"},{"startTime":2801.782,"endTime":2803.072,"body":"I think Curl matters a lot."},{"startTime":2803.522,"endTime":2804.692,"body":"I think Curl Matters."},{"startTime":2804.692,"endTime":2805.892,"body":"I just don't think"},{"startTime":2804.692,"endTime":2805.892,"body":"it's a complexity"},{"startTime":2806.576,"endTime":2808.496,"body":"I think, you know, there"},{"startTime":2806.576,"endTime":2808.496,"body":"are people making arguments"},{"startTime":2808.496,"endTime":2811.106,"body":"both ways that this is like"},{"startTime":2808.496,"endTime":2811.106,"body":"pro, like basically if,"},{"startTime":2811.106,"endTime":2815.426,"body":"if someone tells you that"},{"startTime":2811.106,"endTime":2815.426,"body":"outcome with curl good or bad"},{"startTime":2815.636,"endTime":2819.026,"body":"is proof of anything, then"},{"startTime":2815.636,"endTime":2819.026,"body":"they are probably full of it."},{"startTime":2819.416,"endTime":2820.736,"body":"Uh, but."},{"startTime":2821.308,"endTime":2823.498,"body":"I feel bad putting this to"},{"startTime":2821.308,"endTime":2823.498,"body":"you because I, I feel like"},{"startTime":2823.498,"endTime":2825.838,"body":"fundamentally the subtext of"},{"startTime":2823.498,"endTime":2825.838,"body":"what you're saying is like,"},{"startTime":2826.078,"endTime":2829.108,"body":"we're way over indexed on"},{"startTime":2826.078,"endTime":2829.108,"body":"vulnerability, discovery and"},{"startTime":2829.108,"endTime":2830.728,"body":"response in general, right?"},{"startTime":2830.998,"endTime":2833.218,"body":"Um, and like we can go"},{"startTime":2830.998,"endTime":2833.218,"body":"different angles on that."},{"startTime":2833.218,"endTime":2834.958,"body":"We can talk about backup"},{"startTime":2833.218,"endTime":2834.958,"body":"software, we can talk about"},{"startTime":2834.958,"endTime":2837.748,"body":"the oddball stuff that I'm"},{"startTime":2834.958,"endTime":2837.748,"body":"worried about getting, you"},{"startTime":2837.748,"endTime":2840.478,"body":"know, popped right now that"},{"startTime":2837.748,"endTime":2840.478,"body":"like isn't Chrome or whatever."},{"startTime":2840.478,"endTime":2840.988,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2841.048,"endTime":2842.233,"body":"But like, more generally, I,"},{"startTime":2842.362,"endTime":2842.992,"body":"I, I, wonder,"},{"startTime":2843.418,"endTime":2848.188,"body":"like, one big problem that we"},{"startTime":2843.418,"endTime":2848.188,"body":"have is, um, it's, really easy"},{"startTime":2848.188,"endTime":2852.688,"body":"to imagine, you know, next week,"},{"startTime":2848.188,"endTime":2852.688,"body":"like Mythos two is gonna find"},{"startTime":2852.988,"endTime":2855.148,"body":"a reliable KVM exploit, right?"},{"startTime":2855.328,"endTime":2857.848,"body":"Um, like something that"},{"startTime":2855.328,"endTime":2857.848,"body":"broadly impacts everybody."},{"startTime":2857.848,"endTime":2861.178,"body":"And like, I'm gonna have"},{"startTime":2857.848,"endTime":2861.178,"body":"to reboot every single, you"},{"startTime":2861.178,"endTime":2862.408,"body":"know, server in our fleet."},{"startTime":2862.408,"endTime":2864.208,"body":"And that's a lot of"},{"startTime":2862.408,"endTime":2864.208,"body":"hardware to reboot."},{"startTime":2864.208,"endTime":2866.038,"body":"It would take us a, it"},{"startTime":2864.208,"endTime":2866.038,"body":"would take us a, we've,"},{"startTime":2866.038,"endTime":2867.058,"body":"we've tabletop this."},{"startTime":2867.058,"endTime":2869.608,"body":"It's, it's doable, but"},{"startTime":2867.058,"endTime":2869.608,"body":"like, it's, it's rough,"},{"startTime":2869.786,"endTime":2871.406,"body":"V wouldn't be anything."},{"startTime":2872.066,"endTime":2874.826,"body":"I think we're speculating the"},{"startTime":2872.066,"endTime":2874.826,"body":"bo, the V wouldn't be anything"},{"startTime":2874.826,"endTime":2877.766,"body":"like completely alien that"},{"startTime":2874.826,"endTime":2877.766,"body":"no one's ever seen before."},{"startTime":2877.766,"endTime":2882.176,"body":"It's just threading pieces"},{"startTime":2877.766,"endTime":2882.176,"body":"together in a way that holds"},{"startTime":2882.176,"endTime":2885.926,"body":"all this context in its court,"},{"startTime":2882.176,"endTime":2885.926,"body":"in its head, quote head, it's"},{"startTime":2885.926,"endTime":2888.476,"body":"able to thread them together"},{"startTime":2885.926,"endTime":2888.476,"body":"and, and find an exploit."},{"startTime":2888.86,"endTime":2889.01,"body":"on."},{"startTime":2889.01,"endTime":2890.09,"body":"Forget, forget M's."},{"startTime":2890.09,"endTime":2890.54,"body":"Finding this."},{"startTime":2890.54,"endTime":2892.82,"body":"Imagine, you know, just"},{"startTime":2890.54,"endTime":2892.82,"body":"Tabis, Ory publishes"},{"startTime":2892.82,"endTime":2893.84,"body":"this next week, right?"},{"startTime":2893.9,"endTime":2895.76,"body":"Which he has done to us before."},{"startTime":2895.882,"endTime":2898.162,"body":"a shower and then, you know."},{"startTime":2899.24,"endTime":2901.04,"body":"I've like gotten lunch"},{"startTime":2899.24,"endTime":2901.04,"body":"and come back and like Zen"},{"startTime":2901.04,"endTime":2902.12,"body":"Bleed is happening, right?"},{"startTime":2902.15,"endTime":2902.6,"body":"Whatever."},{"startTime":2903.41,"endTime":2906.47,"body":"aside how the, I, I admire him."},{"startTime":2906.53,"endTime":2907.28,"body":"He's amazing."},{"startTime":2907.31,"endTime":2909.17,"body":"I'm not dunking on him,"},{"startTime":2907.31,"endTime":2909.17,"body":"but that did happen."},{"startTime":2909.32,"endTime":2910.22,"body":"That did happen to me."},{"startTime":2910.64,"endTime":2913.28,"body":"My thing here now is on the,"},{"startTime":2910.64,"endTime":2913.28,"body":"on the defender side, right?"},{"startTime":2913.28,"endTime":2915.92,"body":"Like another thing that that"},{"startTime":2913.28,"endTime":2915.92,"body":"agents potentially do for"},{"startTime":2915.92,"endTime":2917.84,"body":"me is put me in a situation"},{"startTime":2915.92,"endTime":2917.84,"body":"where I don't necessarily have"},{"startTime":2917.84,"endTime":2919.61,"body":"to reboot to do that, right?"},{"startTime":2919.64,"endTime":2922.34,"body":"Like it's much more plausible"},{"startTime":2919.64,"endTime":2922.34,"body":"now that I could do a dynamic"},{"startTime":2922.34,"endTime":2924.47,"body":"kernel patch than before."},{"startTime":2926.908,"endTime":2929.848,"body":"Yeah, but that's kind of one"},{"startTime":2926.908,"endTime":2929.848,"body":"of the places where you do"},{"startTime":2929.848,"endTime":2931.708,"body":"have that asymmetry, right?"},{"startTime":2931.708,"endTime":2934.408,"body":"Like to find vulnerabilities."},{"startTime":2936.053,"endTime":2938.698,"body":"You, you are like, you"},{"startTime":2936.053,"endTime":2938.698,"body":"are perfectly happy with"},{"startTime":2938.892,"endTime":2939.072,"body":"a,"},{"startTime":2939.448,"endTime":2941.218,"body":"50% accuracy rate."},{"startTime":2941.218,"endTime":2944.548,"body":"Like if 50% of the findings,"},{"startTime":2941.218,"endTime":2944.548,"body":"or 90% of the findings,"},{"startTime":2944.548,"endTime":2946.168,"body":"that would be just like"},{"startTime":2944.548,"endTime":2946.168,"body":"absolutely wonderful."},{"startTime":2947.128,"endTime":2950.312,"body":"will not accept 90% accuracy for"},{"startTime":2950.612,"endTime":2951.032,"body":"No."},{"startTime":2951.178,"endTime":2952.258,"body":"in production, right?"},{"startTime":2952.468,"endTime":2956.098,"body":"So I think the solution is a"},{"startTime":2952.468,"endTime":2956.098,"body":"lot more challenging than the."},{"startTime":2957.204,"endTime":2960.684,"body":"I'm like, you're like you're"},{"startTime":2957.204,"endTime":2960.684,"body":"two steps past where I'm at."},{"startTime":2960.684,"endTime":2960.954,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2960.954,"endTime":2963.324,"body":"Just assume we're at the,"},{"startTime":2960.954,"endTime":2963.324,"body":"assume we're in a, in a"},{"startTime":2963.324,"endTime":2966.114,"body":"situation where like we've"},{"startTime":2963.324,"endTime":2966.114,"body":"identified the vulnerability,"},{"startTime":2966.354,"endTime":2968.874,"body":"um, there is an official"},{"startTime":2966.354,"endTime":2968.874,"body":"source level fix for it, that's"},{"startTime":2968.874,"endTime":2969.918,"body":"the right fix and all that."},{"startTime":2970.218,"endTime":2970.518,"body":"And I,"},{"startTime":2970.884,"endTime":2974.094,"body":"the simple logistical problem"},{"startTime":2970.884,"endTime":2974.094,"body":"of how the hell do I actually"},{"startTime":2974.154,"endTime":2977.004,"body":"apply this patch given I'm"},{"startTime":2974.154,"endTime":2977.004,"body":"gonna have to reboot, you"},{"startTime":2977.004,"endTime":2979.854,"body":"know, tens of thousands of,"},{"startTime":2977.004,"endTime":2979.854,"body":"you know, physical machines or"},{"startTime":2980.298,"endTime":2981.618,"body":"do you the fix?"},{"startTime":2981.618,"endTime":2981.978,"body":"Not,"},{"startTime":2982.464,"endTime":2984.684,"body":"like I'm thinking more just"},{"startTime":2982.464,"endTime":2984.684,"body":"a line of like, we have"},{"startTime":2984.684,"endTime":2985.914,"body":"a known good fix for it."},{"startTime":2985.914,"endTime":2990.354,"body":"And like can, I can imagine"},{"startTime":2985.914,"endTime":2990.354,"body":"that in most cases even I'd pr"},{"startTime":2990.774,"endTime":2994.254,"body":"in many cases, I'd be able to"},{"startTime":2990.774,"endTime":2994.254,"body":"dynamically given a known good"},{"startTime":2994.254,"endTime":2995.664,"body":"patch, dynamically apply that."},{"startTime":2995.874,"endTime":2996.384,"body":"And I wouldn't be"},{"startTime":2996.468,"endTime":2998.448,"body":"business operation"},{"startTime":2996.468,"endTime":2998.448,"body":"sense, not in the like"},{"startTime":2998.448,"endTime":2999.948,"body":"software library, like I"},{"startTime":3000.404,"endTime":3001.034,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3002.558,"endTime":3004.538,"body":"and blast it out to"},{"startTime":3002.558,"endTime":3004.538,"body":"all, you know, official"},{"startTime":3004.538,"endTime":3005.318,"body":"channels, et cetera."},{"startTime":3005.812,"endTime":3006.052,"body":"No."},{"startTime":3006.082,"endTime":3006.232,"body":"No."},{"startTime":3006.232,"endTime":3007.612,"body":"By apply you mean hot patch."},{"startTime":3007.612,"endTime":3008.488,"body":"Your live running"},{"startTime":3008.788,"endTime":3009.118,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":3009.418,"endTime":3011.062,"body":"installs without rebooting."},{"startTime":3011.7,"endTime":3012.0,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":3012.038,"endTime":3012.188,"body":"but"},{"startTime":3012.36,"endTime":3012.96,"body":"and I'm not like."},{"startTime":3013.028,"endTime":3015.398,"body":"that the solution is right,"},{"startTime":3013.028,"endTime":3015.398,"body":"and you just need like a,"},{"startTime":3015.398,"endTime":3017.858,"body":"a, a monkey with a wrench to"},{"startTime":3018.798,"endTime":3019.068,"body":"I."},{"startTime":3019.552,"endTime":3021.682,"body":"a, I think a lot of things"},{"startTime":3019.552,"endTime":3021.682,"body":"don't get fixed just because"},{"startTime":3021.682,"endTime":3024.217,"body":"it's very difficult to schedule"},{"startTime":3021.682,"endTime":3024.217,"body":"reboots and take the outages."},{"startTime":3024.517,"endTime":3024.868,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3025.228,"endTime":3028.768,"body":"Or, in, in this case, take"},{"startTime":3025.228,"endTime":3028.768,"body":"the risk of an outage."},{"startTime":3028.798,"endTime":3030.718,"body":"You might have a lot"},{"startTime":3028.798,"endTime":3030.718,"body":"of confidence that you"},{"startTime":3030.718,"endTime":3032.783,"body":"could live patch this,"},{"startTime":3030.718,"endTime":3032.783,"body":"but that's still risky."},{"startTime":3034.184,"endTime":3035.384,"body":"If you can get to that point."},{"startTime":3035.384,"endTime":3035.684,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3035.684,"endTime":3038.114,"body":"And then, you know, like you"},{"startTime":3035.684,"endTime":3038.114,"body":"still have the problem that,"},{"startTime":3038.114,"endTime":3040.274,"body":"you know, if the agent goes"},{"startTime":3038.114,"endTime":3040.274,"body":"to Reddit and decides to"},{"startTime":3040.274,"endTime":3042.824,"body":"ransomware you instead you,"},{"startTime":3040.274,"endTime":3042.824,"body":"but like, you know, that's,"},{"startTime":3042.824,"endTime":3044.324,"body":"that can be mitigated, 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and then."},{"startTime":3063.794,"endTime":3068.774,"body":"But yeah, no, like I, yes, I,"},{"startTime":3063.794,"endTime":3068.774,"body":"I don't think you're crazy."},{"startTime":3068.774,"endTime":3069.284,"body":"So."},{"startTime":3069.88,"endTime":3073.24,"body":"A nice thing though with"},{"startTime":3069.88,"endTime":3073.24,"body":"software is that you can do all"},{"startTime":3073.24,"endTime":3076.6,"body":"this other stuff outside that"},{"startTime":3073.24,"endTime":3076.6,"body":"the model isn't touching and"},{"startTime":3076.6,"endTime":3079.93,"body":"you can try to get something"},{"startTime":3076.6,"endTime":3079.93,"body":"that's a lot more deterministic"},{"startTime":3079.93,"endTime":3083.92,"body":"to try to like confirm so"},{"startTime":3079.93,"endTime":3083.92,"body":"that it'll spit something out"},{"startTime":3083.92,"endTime":3087.25,"body":"and you can have pretty good"},{"startTime":3083.92,"endTime":3087.25,"body":"confidence in what it will do"},{"startTime":3087.25,"endTime":3090.91,"body":"behaviorally because you did"},{"startTime":3087.25,"endTime":3090.91,"body":"all this other work to like"},{"startTime":3091.252,"endTime":3091.792,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":3092.092,"endTime":3095.95,"body":"wazoo yourself and try"},{"startTime":3092.092,"endTime":3095.95,"body":"to basically mitigate"},{"startTime":3095.95,"endTime":3097.33,"body":"the, the probabilistic"},{"startTime":3097.812,"endTime":3097.902,"body":"My."},{"startTime":3098.05,"endTime":3098.8,"body":"that you have."},{"startTime":3100.308,"endTime":3101.448,"body":"Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to"},{"startTime":3101.836,"endTime":3102.106,"body":"it's fine."},{"startTime":3102.226,"endTime":3102.466,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3102.768,"endTime":3106.578,"body":"Uh, I, no, I, I, you know,"},{"startTime":3102.768,"endTime":3106.578,"body":"I have this theory that"},{"startTime":3107.238,"endTime":3111.468,"body":"if we, if we are 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delete"},{"startTime":3147.468,"endTime":3149.238,"body":"your data, they can write"},{"startTime":3149.238,"endTime":3150.258,"body":"you an apology letter."},{"startTime":3150.258,"endTime":3151.908,"body":"But that's kind of,"},{"startTime":3150.258,"endTime":3151.908,"body":"that, that, that, that's"},{"startTime":3151.908,"endTime":3153.168,"body":"kinda as far as it goes."},{"startTime":3153.671,"endTime":3153.798,"body":"So"},{"startTime":3153.971,"endTime":3154.371,"body":"there's"},{"startTime":3154.788,"endTime":3157.548,"body":"like, you know, the, the"},{"startTime":3154.788,"endTime":3157.548,"body":"usual social contract you have"},{"startTime":3157.548,"endTime":3159.378,"body":"with your employees is gone."},{"startTime":3160.341,"endTime":3160.561,"body":"and"},{"startTime":3161.132,"endTime":3162.872,"body":"all the negative"},{"startTime":3161.132,"endTime":3162.872,"body":"consequences that come with"},{"startTime":3163.076,"endTime":3163.196,"body":"up."},{"startTime":3163.562,"endTime":3164.342,"body":"Um, so I"},{"startTime":3164.366,"endTime":3164.456,"body":"so"},{"startTime":3164.756,"endTime":3170.132,"body":"there are architectures that are"},{"startTime":3164.756,"endTime":3170.132,"body":"conductive to building secure"},{"startTime":3170.132,"endTime":3171.962,"body":"agent tech platforms today."},{"startTime":3171.962,"endTime":3175.352,"body":"And, and we should be leaning"},{"startTime":3171.962,"endTime":3175.352,"body":"into that more in the future."},{"startTime":3175.352,"endTime":3177.242,"body":"But I don't think this"},{"startTime":3175.352,"endTime":3177.242,"body":"is the direction that the"},{"startTime":3177.242,"endTime":3180.062,"body":"Frontier Labs are moving"},{"startTime":3177.242,"endTime":3180.062,"body":"in, which is basically"},{"startTime":3181.076,"endTime":3183.206,"body":"human like agents that 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all"},{"startTime":3208.786,"endTime":3211.126,"body":"the other problems that"},{"startTime":3208.786,"endTime":3211.126,"body":"we don't seem to be making"},{"startTime":3211.126,"endTime":3215.116,"body":"as much progress on as on"},{"startTime":3211.126,"endTime":3215.116,"body":"capabilities themselves."},{"startTime":3215.866,"endTime":3216.106,"body":"I,"},{"startTime":3216.137,"endTime":3216.257,"body":"I"},{"startTime":3216.646,"endTime":3217.426,"body":"yeah, I don't"},{"startTime":3217.726,"endTime":3220.078,"body":"I do get, yeah, I"},{"startTime":3217.726,"endTime":3220.078,"body":"do get squid out."},{"startTime":3220.078,"endTime":3223.138,"body":"Like I see a lot of places"},{"startTime":3220.078,"endTime":3223.138,"body":"where l LMS are super"},{"startTime":3223.138,"endTime":3224.368,"body":"applicable to defense."},{"startTime":3224.638,"endTime":3229.378,"body":"Um, but I do get squid out every"},{"startTime":3224.638,"endTime":3229.378,"body":"time I see somebody 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me."},{"startTime":3245.626,"endTime":3245.926,"body":"Well,"},{"startTime":3246.232,"endTime":3248.662,"body":"problem you're, they are trying"},{"startTime":3246.232,"endTime":3248.662,"body":"to solve, I think in many"},{"startTime":3248.662,"endTime":3251.776,"body":"cases is that you now have"},{"startTime":3248.662,"endTime":3251.776,"body":"agents on the attack side,"},{"startTime":3252.076,"endTime":3252.256,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":3252.532,"endTime":3253.072,"body":"and they can"},{"startTime":3253.306,"endTime":3253.546,"body":"move"},{"startTime":3253.912,"endTime":3254.422,"body":"quickly,"},{"startTime":3254.686,"endTime":3254.806,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3255.706,"endTime":3256.396,"body":"Compromise"},{"startTime":3257.242,"endTime":3260.482,"body":"lateral movement in, you"},{"startTime":3257.242,"endTime":3260.482,"body":"know, what, 30 seconds, right?"},{"startTime":3260.692,"endTime":3261.436,"body":"And they can do"},{"startTime":3261.736,"endTime":3261.976,"body":"it"},{"startTime":3262.432,"endTime":3262.822,"body":"time."},{"startTime":3264.016,"endTime":3264.861,"body":"so you find."},{"startTime":3267.22,"endTime":3269.95,"body":"Humanlike reasoning about"},{"startTime":3267.22,"endTime":3269.95,"body":"what's happening in the"},{"startTime":3269.95,"endTime":3273.88,"body":"enterprise and autonomous"},{"startTime":3269.95,"endTime":3273.88,"body":"decision making on timescales"},{"startTime":3274.75,"endTime":3276.79,"body":"are just fundamentally in"},{"startTime":3274.75,"endTime":3276.79,"body":"uncomfortable with human"},{"startTime":3277.686,"endTime":3278.106,"body":"Workload."},{"startTime":3278.406,"endTime":3281.08,"body":"you fundamentally"},{"startTime":3278.406,"endTime":3281.08,"body":"rethink how companies are"},{"startTime":3281.08,"endTime":3282.25,"body":"structured and built and"},{"startTime":3282.306,"endTime":3282.816,"body":"and know,"},{"startTime":3283.06,"endTime":3286.75,"body":"you, know, compartmentalize"},{"startTime":3283.06,"endTime":3286.75,"body":"everything a lot better than"},{"startTime":3286.75,"endTime":3288.16,"body":"we are compart analyzing today."},{"startTime":3288.4,"endTime":3294.01,"body":"So I think on some level, LLM"},{"startTime":3288.4,"endTime":3294.01,"body":"type reasoning is unavoidable"},{"startTime":3294.01,"endTime":3299.83,"body":"On the defense side, if you"},{"startTime":3294.01,"endTime":3299.83,"body":"want that real time clever"},{"startTime":3301.24,"endTime":3306.13,"body":"sort, you know, countermeasures,"},{"startTime":3301.24,"endTime":3306.13,"body":"but, uh, but it's incredibly"},{"startTime":3306.13,"endTime":3309.335,"body":"difficult to get this right and"},{"startTime":3306.13,"endTime":3309.335,"body":"not shoot yourself in the food."},{"startTime":3309.82,"endTime":3309.97,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":3310.93,"endTime":3311.11,"body":"yeah,"},{"startTime":3311.528,"endTime":3314.018,"body":"wouldn't like, it wouldn't be"},{"startTime":3311.528,"endTime":3314.018,"body":"my first move as a defendant."},{"startTime":3314.018,"endTime":3315.633,"body":"That wouldn't be like the"},{"startTime":3314.018,"endTime":3315.633,"body":"first place I would think of."},{"startTime":3315.73,"endTime":3316.215,"body":"yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3316.6,"endTime":3316.72,"body":"I,"},{"startTime":3316.9,"endTime":3317.68,"body":"think, you like"},{"startTime":3318.34,"endTime":3321.01,"body":"you, need a lot of piping"},{"startTime":3318.34,"endTime":3321.01,"body":"before you even get there,"},{"startTime":3321.19,"endTime":3321.4,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":3321.7,"endTime":3324.61,"body":"you know, it needs to"},{"startTime":3321.7,"endTime":3324.61,"body":"have the right source of"},{"startTime":3324.61,"endTime":3325.69,"body":"information to begin with."},{"startTime":3325.69,"endTime":3328.57,"body":"And, you know, most enterprises"},{"startTime":3325.69,"endTime":3328.57,"body":"don't even have that right."},{"startTime":3329.588,"endTime":3330.998,"body":"Let me ask you a weird question."},{"startTime":3331.238,"endTime":3333.878,"body":"Um, so you've got the"},{"startTime":3331.238,"endTime":3333.878,"body":"book, and I'm gonna"},{"startTime":3333.878,"endTime":3334.898,"body":"ask you about the book."},{"startTime":3335.168,"endTime":3336.308,"body":"Um, and it's the new book,"},{"startTime":3336.402,"endTime":3336.732,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3336.848,"endTime":3337.538,"body":"in, a second, right?"},{"startTime":3337.538,"endTime":3343.538,"body":"But like, like, how, how,"},{"startTime":3337.538,"endTime":3343.538,"body":"like, how like, security, are"},{"startTime":3343.538,"endTime":3344.768,"body":"you gonna be going forward?"},{"startTime":3345.548,"endTime":3347.618,"body":"like, are you, are you gonna"},{"startTime":3345.548,"endTime":3347.618,"body":"veer off into circuit land?"},{"startTime":3348.872,"endTime":3349.892,"body":"Uh, no."},{"startTime":3349.892,"endTime":3350.042,"body":"So,"},{"startTime":3350.276,"endTime":3350.486,"body":"you know,"},{"startTime":3350.822,"endTime":3352.292,"body":"so yeah."},{"startTime":3352.442,"endTime":3355.862,"body":"Uh, I, electronics has"},{"startTime":3352.442,"endTime":3355.862,"body":"been my passion ever since."},{"startTime":3355.862,"endTime":3356.042,"body":"And I"},{"startTime":3356.126,"endTime":3357.221,"body":"I know, kind of"},{"startTime":3357.512,"endTime":3359.612,"body":"the, I, I ended up"},{"startTime":3357.512,"endTime":3359.612,"body":"doing computer security"},{"startTime":3359.612,"endTime":3360.602,"body":"kind of by accident,"},{"startTime":3362.642,"endTime":3365.822,"body":"know, computers, like I,"},{"startTime":3362.642,"endTime":3365.822,"body":"I, was either gonna become"},{"startTime":3365.822,"endTime":3367.151,"body":"a, an electrical engineer"},{"startTime":3367.451,"endTime":3367.671,"body":"or"},{"startTime":3367.971,"endTime":3370.442,"body":"chemical engineer, and that,"},{"startTime":3367.971,"endTime":3370.442,"body":"that was sort of, you know,"},{"startTime":3370.442,"endTime":3371.582,"body":"my, my childhood thing."},{"startTime":3371.642,"endTime":3374.132,"body":"And then computers showed up"},{"startTime":3371.642,"endTime":3374.132,"body":"and ruined my life, right?"},{"startTime":3374.132,"endTime":3377.102,"body":"And it was sort of the right"},{"startTime":3374.132,"endTime":3377.102,"body":"time, the right place, right"},{"startTime":3377.132,"endTime":3378.542,"body":"to, to be getting into InfoSec."},{"startTime":3379.262,"endTime":3380.552,"body":"Um, but."},{"startTime":3380.591,"endTime":3382.706,"body":"could be the, could"},{"startTime":3380.591,"endTime":3382.706,"body":"be said of all of us."},{"startTime":3382.706,"endTime":3384.656,"body":"And then computers showed"},{"startTime":3382.706,"endTime":3384.656,"body":"up and ruined my life."},{"startTime":3385.142,"endTime":3385.352,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3385.352,"endTime":3387.602,"body":"So I think, you know, so"},{"startTime":3385.352,"endTime":3387.602,"body":"obviously, you know, no,"},{"startTime":3387.632,"endTime":3389.222,"body":"no real regrets about that."},{"startTime":3389.282,"endTime":3393.212,"body":"Uh, but, uh, but yeah, I,"},{"startTime":3389.282,"endTime":3393.212,"body":"I keep going back to that."},{"startTime":3393.212,"endTime":3396.722,"body":"And, and here's the thing,"},{"startTime":3393.212,"endTime":3396.722,"body":"like I, I, I'm, I'm still"},{"startTime":3396.722,"endTime":3398.822,"body":"very passionate about security"},{"startTime":3396.722,"endTime":3398.822,"body":"and I think, again, like this"},{"startTime":3398.822,"endTime":3401.882,"body":"is incredibly interesting,"},{"startTime":3402.052,"endTime":3402.292,"body":"Right,"},{"startTime":3402.542,"endTime":3402.902,"body":"is."},{"startTime":3404.084,"endTime":3407.234,"body":"Either the most interesting"},{"startTime":3404.084,"endTime":3407.234,"body":"time in the history of InfoSec"},{"startTime":3407.264,"endTime":3409.874,"body":"or the second most interesting"},{"startTime":3407.264,"endTime":3409.874,"body":"after their arrival of the"},{"startTime":3410.062,"endTime":3410.272,"body":"West,"},{"startTime":3410.932,"endTime":3411.892,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":3412.244,"endTime":3414.734,"body":"nearly as excited"},{"startTime":3412.244,"endTime":3414.734,"body":"about the field"},{"startTime":3414.907,"endTime":3415.492,"body":"for, uh,"},{"startTime":3416.114,"endTime":3417.554,"body":"for a good while, right?"},{"startTime":3418.034,"endTime":3419.954,"body":"Uh, so I wanna be a part of"},{"startTime":3420.112,"endTime":3420.322,"body":"it."},{"startTime":3420.622,"endTime":3421.012,"body":"Uh,"},{"startTime":3421.574,"endTime":3423.104,"body":"at the same time, I"},{"startTime":3423.172,"endTime":3423.292,"body":"I"},{"startTime":3423.584,"endTime":3427.004,"body":"the things that make you visible"},{"startTime":3423.584,"endTime":3427.004,"body":"in the field, like basically"},{"startTime":3427.004,"endTime":3430.034,"body":"punditry, you know, how, I"},{"startTime":3427.004,"endTime":3430.034,"body":"guess having a TikTok now,"},{"startTime":3430.192,"endTime":3430.462,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":3430.694,"endTime":3433.214,"body":"a podcast, and,"},{"startTime":3433.33,"endTime":3433.9,"body":"podcast"},{"startTime":3434.182,"endTime":3434.362,"body":"Or,"},{"startTime":3434.662,"endTime":3436.214,"body":"doing vulnerability"},{"startTime":3434.662,"endTime":3436.214,"body":"research work."},{"startTime":3436.934,"endTime":3438.044,"body":"I think, you"},{"startTime":3438.142,"endTime":3438.742,"body":"you know, I,"},{"startTime":3439.064,"endTime":3440.534,"body":"I've, done this long"},{"startTime":3439.064,"endTime":3440.534,"body":"enough that it's"},{"startTime":3440.834,"endTime":3441.652,"body":"still kind of,"},{"startTime":3442.364,"endTime":3443.504,"body":"when you look back at it"},{"startTime":3444.112,"endTime":3444.772,"body":"it feels kind of"},{"startTime":3445.004,"endTime":3445.244,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":3445.244,"endTime":3446.984,"body":"Like, I did two security books."},{"startTime":3447.794,"endTime":3451.304,"body":"are basically completely"},{"startTime":3447.794,"endTime":3451.304,"body":"obsolete at this point."},{"startTime":3451.334,"endTime":3455.024,"body":"All the, you know, hundreds"},{"startTime":3451.334,"endTime":3455.024,"body":"of advisories and whatever"},{"startTime":3455.024,"endTime":3456.074,"body":"that I published, you"},{"startTime":3456.139,"endTime":3456.429,"body":"know"},{"startTime":3456.914,"endTime":3457.904,"body":"two decades ago."},{"startTime":3458.708,"endTime":3461.408,"body":"No one really remembers"},{"startTime":3458.708,"endTime":3461.408,"body":"or cares about any of"},{"startTime":3461.479,"endTime":3462.674,"body":"that Um,"},{"startTime":3463.238,"endTime":3464.588,"body":"and, and it's not that,"},{"startTime":3464.624,"endTime":3466.134,"body":"not, you know, I"},{"startTime":3464.624,"endTime":3466.134,"body":"sort of, you know, I"},{"startTime":3466.418,"endTime":3466.898,"body":"I, like, I'm"},{"startTime":3466.904,"endTime":3466.994,"body":"not"},{"startTime":3467.378,"endTime":3474.488,"body":"seeking eternal fame, but"},{"startTime":3467.378,"endTime":3474.488,"body":"think it's kind InfoSec"},{"startTime":3474.488,"endTime":3475.838,"body":"compared to almost anything."},{"startTime":3475.838,"endTime":3477.908,"body":"Like, you know, if you publish"},{"startTime":3475.838,"endTime":3477.908,"body":"a book about electronics,"},{"startTime":3477.933,"endTime":3481.268,"body":"yeah, it's gonna be slightly"},{"startTime":3477.933,"endTime":3481.268,"body":"outdated in 10 years and maybe"},{"startTime":3481.268,"endTime":3483.518,"body":"badly outdated in 20, but"},{"startTime":3483.634,"endTime":3483.784,"body":"it's"},{"startTime":3484.058,"endTime":3486.308,"body":"of, you know, it's, it,"},{"startTime":3484.058,"endTime":3486.308,"body":"it, it's not as rapid, it's"},{"startTime":3486.308,"endTime":3487.598,"body":"not as dramatic, right?"},{"startTime":3487.778,"endTime":3490.208,"body":"If you build a, if you're a"},{"startTime":3487.778,"endTime":3490.208,"body":"woodworker and you build a"},{"startTime":3490.324,"endTime":3490.594,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":3490.598,"endTime":3492.908,"body":"for yourself, you know"},{"startTime":3490.598,"endTime":3492.908,"body":"it's still gonna be fine."},{"startTime":3492.938,"endTime":3495.278,"body":"Like, you're gonna still gonna"},{"startTime":3492.938,"endTime":3495.278,"body":"be able to look at it, maybe"},{"startTime":3495.278,"endTime":3496.68,"body":"pass it onto your children,"},{"startTime":3496.98,"endTime":3497.76,"body":"No, like if you"},{"startTime":3497.944,"endTime":3498.034,"body":"like"},{"startTime":3498.42,"endTime":3501.27,"body":"comprehensive catalog of shop"},{"startTime":3498.42,"endTime":3501.27,"body":"jigs in a, in a woodworking"},{"startTime":3501.27,"endTime":3504.9,"body":"book in like 1965, I would"},{"startTime":3501.27,"endTime":3504.9,"body":"probably still be interested"},{"startTime":3504.9,"endTime":3505.395,"body":"in reading that book."},{"startTime":3505.695,"endTime":3508.532,"body":"So, so I think, you know,"},{"startTime":3505.695,"endTime":3508.532,"body":"I'm trying to balance, like"},{"startTime":3508.982,"endTime":3510.212,"body":"basically I, I looked 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right."},{"startTime":3547.164,"endTime":3548.604,"body":"what is the name of the book?"},{"startTime":3549.604,"endTime":3550.704,"body":"secret life of circuits,"},{"startTime":3551.004,"endTime":3551.544,"body":"Awesome."},{"startTime":3551.914,"endTime":3552.724,"body":"uh, yeah."},{"startTime":3552.724,"endTime":3553.084,"body":"And"},{"startTime":3553.3,"endTime":3553.75,"body":"Let me ask."},{"startTime":3553.75,"endTime":3556.39,"body":"My first question is, will this"},{"startTime":3553.75,"endTime":3556.39,"body":"book teach me how to solder?"},{"startTime":3556.51,"endTime":3557.745,"body":"'cause I'm terrible"},{"startTime":3556.51,"endTime":3557.745,"body":"at soldering."},{"startTime":3558.062,"endTime":3561.332,"body":"Uh, it, it, it, it actually"},{"startTime":3558.062,"endTime":3561.332,"body":"contains some, you know,"},{"startTime":3561.332,"endTime":3564.272,"body":"like pretty useful tips,"},{"startTime":3561.332,"endTime":3564.272,"body":"which is basically."},{"startTime":3565.268,"endTime":3568.328,"body":"Spend more money on a good"},{"startTime":3565.268,"endTime":3568.328,"body":"soldiering island or, or good"},{"startTime":3568.328,"endTime":3571.508,"body":"soldiering island, like a,"},{"startTime":3568.328,"endTime":3571.508,"body":"like a pencil shaped, you know,"},{"startTime":3571.508,"endTime":3574.538,"body":"versus the one that you hold"},{"startTime":3571.508,"endTime":3574.538,"body":"like a toothbrush and, and is"},{"startTime":3574.538,"endTime":3577.358,"body":"about as, as fine of a tool."},{"startTime":3577.418,"endTime":3578.858,"body":"Um, and, and"},{"startTime":3579.008,"endTime":3579.188,"body":"that"},{"startTime":3579.488,"endTime":3580.028,"body":"really, makes a"},{"startTime":3580.178,"endTime":3580.448,"body":"difference."},{"startTime":3580.778,"endTime":3582.038,"body":"Um, but it, yeah,"},{"startTime":3582.338,"endTime":3582.878,"body":"so 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explanation, right?"},{"startTime":3798.794,"endTime":3799.304,"body":"So if you go"},{"startTime":3799.531,"endTime":3799.751,"body":"to"},{"startTime":3800.174,"endTime":3802.844,"body":"Wikipedia or you go to stock"},{"startTime":3800.174,"endTime":3802.844,"body":"exchange and you just wanna"},{"startTime":3802.844,"endTime":3806.174,"body":"understand why the formula for"},{"startTime":3802.844,"endTime":3806.174,"body":"the reactance of a capacitor,"},{"startTime":3806.174,"endTime":3808.034,"body":"or the frequency response of"},{"startTime":3808.134,"endTime":3808.374,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3808.634,"endTime":3809.204,"body":"looks this"},{"startTime":3809.391,"endTime":3809.591,"body":"way,"},{"startTime":3809.894,"endTime":3810.854,"body":"the answer is,"},{"startTime":3811.481,"endTime":3811.821,"body":"you know,"},{"startTime":3812.864,"endTime":3814.244,"body":"learn some calculus"},{"startTime":3812.864,"endTime":3814.244,"body":"and come back."},{"startTime":3814.244,"endTime":3814.544,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3815.804,"endTime":3818.624,"body":"and, and I, so I've been, I"},{"startTime":3815.804,"endTime":3818.624,"body":"don't think you have actually"},{"startTime":3818.624,"endTime":3819.314,"body":"have to do that, right?"},{"startTime":3819.314,"endTime":3820.004,"body":"Like for."},{"startTime":3820.934,"endTime":3822.944,"body":"For sine waves, you can do"},{"startTime":3823.554,"endTime":3823.794,"body":"all"},{"startTime":3824.084,"endTime":3826.694,"body":"can derive all of this from"},{"startTime":3824.084,"endTime":3826.694,"body":"basic trigonometry and it's"},{"startTime":3826.694,"endTime":3829.904,"body":"gonna take you a bit longer"},{"startTime":3826.694,"endTime":3829.904,"body":"and you gonna be more triangles"},{"startTime":3829.904,"endTime":3830.894,"body":"and circles that you have to"},{"startTime":3831.119,"endTime":3831.279,"body":"grow,"},{"startTime":3832.184,"endTime":3833.924,"body":"but you kind of just need"},{"startTime":3833.989,"endTime":3834.519,"body":"like, you know,"},{"startTime":3834.944,"endTime":3838.994,"body":"school, early high"},{"startTime":3834.944,"endTime":3838.994,"body":"school foundations to,"},{"startTime":3839.714,"endTime":3841.004,"body":"explain electronics."},{"startTime":3841.064,"endTime":3841.784,"body":"So, so I"},{"startTime":3841.974,"endTime":3842.244,"body":"think, you"},{"startTime":3842.564,"endTime":3847.364,"body":"there's a, distinction between"},{"startTime":3842.564,"endTime":3847.364,"body":"essential complexity and the"},{"startTime":3847.364,"endTime":3850.484,"body":"complexity that makes sense"},{"startTime":3847.364,"endTime":3850.484,"body":"and is expedient in a college"},{"startTime":3850.484,"endTime":3853.754,"body":"setting, but doesn't really"},{"startTime":3850.484,"endTime":3853.754,"body":"make sense for hobbyists."},{"startTime":3853.754,"endTime":3856.974,"body":"And so I'm trying to aim"},{"startTime":3853.754,"endTime":3856.974,"body":"for that middle ground and,"},{"startTime":3857.274,"endTime":3857.604,"body":"uh,"},{"startTime":3857.864,"endTime":3862.514,"body":"it's been a wild ride and a"},{"startTime":3857.864,"endTime":3862.514,"body":"lot of triangles and, uh, like"},{"startTime":3862.544,"endTime":3866.144,"body":"almost 300 hundred drone and"},{"startTime":3866.47,"endTime":3866.74,"body":"So"},{"startTime":3866.804,"endTime":3867.344,"body":"and, yeah."},{"startTime":3867.755,"endTime":3870.01,"body":"I, I haven't, like, I haven't"},{"startTime":3867.755,"endTime":3870.01,"body":"asked you specifically"},{"startTime":3870.01,"endTime":3871.93,"body":"before, but like I get"},{"startTime":3870.01,"endTime":3871.93,"body":"the sense that you have"},{"startTime":3871.93,"endTime":3873.61,"body":"most of the math 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know"},{"startTime":3890.656,"endTime":3892.396,"body":"the answer, right?"},{"startTime":3892.396,"endTime":3892.936,"body":"And you sort"},{"startTime":3892.998,"endTime":3893.268,"body":"Sort of, you"},{"startTime":3893.566,"endTime":3893.806,"body":"from"},{"startTime":3893.988,"endTime":3894.228,"body":"up,"},{"startTime":3894.496,"endTime":3895.066,"body":"from that point."},{"startTime":3895.066,"endTime":3895.186,"body":"But"},{"startTime":3895.218,"endTime":3895.368,"body":"But"},{"startTime":3895.78,"endTime":3896.11,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3896.41,"endTime":3898.396,"body":"sometimes when you force"},{"startTime":3896.41,"endTime":3898.396,"body":"yourself to explain"},{"startTime":3898.396,"endTime":3900.766,"body":"something simply, you"},{"startTime":3898.396,"endTime":3900.766,"body":"realize actually, you"},{"startTime":3900.858,"endTime":3900.948,"body":"you"},{"startTime":3901.456,"endTime":3901.846,"body":"do I"},{"startTime":3902.054,"endTime":3902.324,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":3902.763,"endTime":3903.588,"body":"I'm just like, you know,"},{"startTime":3903.946,"endTime":3904.786,"body":"why, is it the way it"},{"startTime":3904.903,"endTime":3905.086,"body":"it is?"},{"startTime":3905.183,"endTime":3905.903,"body":"I mean, how do you,"},{"startTime":3907.036,"endTime":3909.916,"body":"do you convey that in a way"},{"startTime":3907.036,"endTime":3909.916,"body":"that makes sense to, to, to a"},{"startTime":3909.916,"endTime":3912.316,"body":"person who, you know, hasn't"},{"startTime":3909.916,"endTime":3912.316,"body":"read the same books right?"},{"startTime":3912.316,"endTime":3914.386,"body":"And hasn't gone down"},{"startTime":3912.316,"endTime":3914.386,"body":"the same rabbit holes."},{"startTime":3914.873,"endTime":3915.093,"body":"So"},{"startTime":3915.346,"endTime":3916.486,"body":"it is a bit of both, I"},{"startTime":3916.698,"endTime":3916.938,"body":"think."},{"startTime":3916.938,"endTime":3917.238,"body":"You know, like,"},{"startTime":3918.106,"endTime":3920.656,"body":"trying to explain is when"},{"startTime":3918.106,"endTime":3920.656,"body":"you realize that you don't"},{"startTime":3920.656,"endTime":3922.036,"body":"know certain things and"},{"startTime":3922.608,"endTime":3922.788,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":3923.376,"endTime":3923.826,"body":"for sure."},{"startTime":3924.006,"endTime":3925.086,"body":"How far are you"},{"startTime":3924.006,"endTime":3925.086,"body":"into the book now?"},{"startTime":3925.086,"endTime":3925.686,"body":"I, I saw"},{"startTime":3925.698,"endTime":3925.878,"body":"like,"},{"startTime":3926.676,"endTime":3927.726,"body":"420 pages."},{"startTime":3927.726,"endTime":3928.776,"body":"Have you written 420"},{"startTime":3929.076,"endTime":3929.24,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3929.24,"endTime":3929.39,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3929.39,"endTime":3930.2,"body":"It's all, it's all done."},{"startTime":3930.2,"endTime":3931.1,"body":"It's, it's like, you"},{"startTime":3931.218,"endTime":3931.488,"body":"you know."},{"startTime":3931.82,"endTime":3933.89,"body":"with the, with the"},{"startTime":3931.82,"endTime":3933.89,"body":"printer right now."},{"startTime":3933.89,"endTime":3937.94,"body":"So, uh, yeah, you can"},{"startTime":3933.89,"endTime":3937.94,"body":"pre-order and get a free"},{"startTime":3937.94,"endTime":3940.94,"body":"PDF today, and it's gonna"},{"startTime":3937.94,"endTime":3940.94,"body":"be like the entire book."},{"startTime":3941.18,"endTime":3946.07,"body":"Uh, and then it's gonna"},{"startTime":3941.18,"endTime":3946.07,"body":"ship in September, copies."},{"startTime":3946.07,"endTime":3947.601,"body":"It's, it's gonna be full color"},{"startTime":3947.901,"endTime":3948.121,"body":"and"},{"startTime":3948.38,"endTime":3949.07,"body":"and, hardcover."},{"startTime":3949.07,"endTime":3949.43,"body":"So"},{"startTime":3949.636,"endTime":3949.816,"body":"but"},{"startTime":3950.48,"endTime":3951.29,"body":"really, fancy."},{"startTime":3951.951,"endTime":3955.036,"body":"Well, um, will there be"},{"startTime":3951.951,"endTime":3955.036,"body":"copies at the, at the"},{"startTime":3955.036,"endTime":3958.126,"body":"no starch booth at, uh,"},{"startTime":3955.036,"endTime":3958.126,"body":"DEFCON or, or Blackhead or"},{"startTime":3958.426,"endTime":3962.448,"body":"I, would expect so, not in"},{"startTime":3958.426,"endTime":3962.448,"body":"charge of their marketing, but"},{"startTime":3962.448,"endTime":3965.148,"body":"they usually all the new stuff."},{"startTime":3967.334,"endTime":3968.624,"body":"It would be a funny"},{"startTime":3967.334,"endTime":3968.624,"body":"role for you to take."},{"startTime":3970.538,"endTime":3970.658,"body":"uh,"},{"startTime":3970.886,"endTime":3971.906,"body":"Will it."},{"startTime":3972.248,"endTime":3974.738,"body":"they actually always try"},{"startTime":3972.248,"endTime":3974.738,"body":"to rope me and they ask,"},{"startTime":3974.752,"endTime":3974.872,"body":"you"},{"startTime":3975.172,"endTime":3977.588,"body":"are you going to Defcon or"},{"startTime":3975.172,"endTime":3977.588,"body":"Black Hat, or whatever, and my"},{"startTime":3977.588,"endTime":3979.118,"body":"answer is always, no, thank you."},{"startTime":3979.118,"endTime":3979.478,"body":"I, I"},{"startTime":3979.672,"endTime":3979.882,"body":"what."},{"startTime":3980.138,"endTime":3982.243,"body":"know, 20 years ago and"},{"startTime":3980.138,"endTime":3982.243,"body":"that was good enough."},{"startTime":3984.742,"endTime":3987.682,"body":"Will it teach you how to"},{"startTime":3984.742,"endTime":3987.682,"body":"calculate the equivalent"},{"startTime":3987.682,"endTime":3990.922,"body":"resistance between two resistor"},{"startTime":3987.682,"endTime":3990.922,"body":"nodes that are a knight's"},{"startTime":3990.922,"endTime":3993.292,"body":"move away and an infinite grid"},{"startTime":3990.922,"endTime":3993.292,"body":"of ideal one oh resistors."},{"startTime":3994.136,"endTime":3995.096,"body":"So, that, that's the"},{"startTime":3995.154,"endTime":3995.304,"body":"good"},{"startTime":3995.604,"endTime":3998.846,"body":"there's a lot of things"},{"startTime":3995.604,"endTime":3998.846,"body":"that we teach to people just"},{"startTime":3998.846,"endTime":4000.406,"body":"to torture them, I think."},{"startTime":4000.436,"endTime":4000.916,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4001.606,"endTime":4001.636,"body":"uh."},{"startTime":4001.936,"endTime":4004.806,"body":"We're in some cases to be hit"},{"startTime":4001.936,"endTime":4004.806,"body":"by a bus in the next KCD 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buy some"},{"startTime":4022.92,"endTime":4027.36,"body":"surplus on, on eBay, right?"},{"startTime":4027.45,"endTime":4030.9,"body":"Like, if you really want"},{"startTime":4027.45,"endTime":4030.9,"body":"to, or how to wind your own"},{"startTime":4030.9,"endTime":4032.55,"body":"transformer or stuff like that."},{"startTime":4032.58,"endTime":4036.33,"body":"And no, and, and, and, and the"},{"startTime":4032.58,"endTime":4036.33,"body":"book is not gonna be spent, or"},{"startTime":4036.346,"endTime":4036.706,"body":"or like,"},{"startTime":4037.006,"endTime":4041.64,"body":"like you usually start"},{"startTime":4037.006,"endTime":4041.64,"body":"with NPN or BJT, like, you"},{"startTime":4041.64,"endTime":4046.59,"body":"know, uh, bipolar junction"},{"startTime":4041.64,"endTime":4046.59,"body":"transistors, are kind of not"},{"startTime":4046.59,"endTime":4049.29,"body":"exactly obsolete, but they"},{"startTime":4046.59,"endTime":4049.29,"body":"are more complex than the more"},{"startTime":4049.29,"endTime":4053.7,"body":"common modern field effect"},{"startTime":4049.29,"endTime":4053.7,"body":"transistors, which is what you"},{"startTime":4053.7,"endTime":4055.23,"body":"actually use everywhere, right?"},{"startTime":4055.59,"endTime":4058.08,"body":"In, digital circuits and"},{"startTime":4055.59,"endTime":4058.08,"body":"power switching and so on."},{"startTime":4058.5,"endTime":4059.31,"body":"So I've been trying to."},{"startTime":4059.324,"endTime":4059.684,"body":"to"},{"startTime":4061.092,"endTime":4062.652,"body":"Step away from that as well."},{"startTime":4062.652,"endTime":4065.202,"body":"And like really focus on"},{"startTime":4062.652,"endTime":4065.202,"body":"modern problem, modern,"},{"startTime":4065.442,"endTime":4066.582,"body":"modern problem solving."},{"startTime":4066.582,"endTime":4068.232,"body":"And that means that, you"},{"startTime":4066.582,"endTime":4068.232,"body":"know, if you wanna build"},{"startTime":4068.232,"endTime":4070.182,"body":"an oscillator, you're"},{"startTime":4068.232,"endTime":4070.182,"body":"probably not gonna be"},{"startTime":4070.274,"endTime":4070.334,"body":"be"},{"startTime":4070.722,"endTime":4072.222,"body":"putting together"},{"startTime":4070.722,"endTime":4072.222,"body":"individual transistors."},{"startTime":4072.222,"endTime":4074.352,"body":"You're gonna get a"},{"startTime":4072.222,"endTime":4074.352,"body":"microcontroller that costs like,"},{"startTime":4074.352,"endTime":4078.672,"body":"you know, 50 cents and program"},{"startTime":4074.352,"endTime":4078.672,"body":"it to whatever wave form you"},{"startTime":4078.909,"endTime":4079.509,"body":"All right?"},{"startTime":4079.902,"endTime":4082.242,"body":"and if you wanna change the"},{"startTime":4079.902,"endTime":4082.242,"body":"frequency or whatever, you"},{"startTime":4082.242,"endTime":4083.472,"body":"can just upload new code."},{"startTime":4084.374,"endTime":4084.764,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":4085.002,"endTime":4085.212,"body":"think"},{"startTime":4085.214,"endTime":4085.424,"body":"think"},{"startTime":4085.692,"endTime":4087.822,"body":"there's a, lot of stuff"},{"startTime":4085.692,"endTime":4087.822,"body":"like that in, in the book,"},{"startTime":4087.822,"endTime":4092.202,"body":"just trying to keep it"},{"startTime":4087.822,"endTime":4092.202,"body":"practical and not, not torture"},{"startTime":4092.202,"endTime":4095.022,"body":"people with math or theory"},{"startTime":4092.202,"endTime":4095.022,"body":"just for the sake of it."},{"startTime":4095.112,"endTime":4097.122,"body":"Uh, it's just the, just"},{"startTime":4095.112,"endTime":4097.122,"body":"the things you really"},{"startTime":4097.152,"endTime":4099.372,"body":"need or the things you"},{"startTime":4099.404,"endTime":4099.524,"body":"you"},{"startTime":4100.092,"endTime":4103.572,"body":"need to know to make sense"},{"startTime":4100.092,"endTime":4103.572,"body":"of Wikipedia articles or, or"},{"startTime":4103.572,"endTime":4106.212,"body":"college textbooks down the"},{"startTime":4103.572,"endTime":4106.212,"body":"line if you really need to"},{"startTime":4106.212,"endTime":4107.532,"body":"investigate a specific thing."},{"startTime":4109.758,"endTime":4110.868,"body":"Well, that's very cool."},{"startTime":4111.168,"endTime":4111.768,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":4112.968,"endTime":4114.228,"body":"Thank you for coming on."},{"startTime":4114.288,"endTime":4115.638,"body":"Thank you for telling"},{"startTime":4114.288,"endTime":4115.638,"body":"us about the book."},{"startTime":4115.698,"endTime":4117.078,"body":"Thank you for letting"},{"startTime":4115.698,"endTime":4117.078,"body":"us interrupt you."},{"startTime":4117.078,"endTime":4120.258,"body":"While you talked about"},{"startTime":4117.078,"endTime":4120.258,"body":"bug finding for like an"},{"startTime":4120.258,"endTime":4123.408,"body":"hour before talking about"},{"startTime":4120.258,"endTime":4123.408,"body":"your book, appreciate it."},{"startTime":4124.294,"endTime":4124.784,"body":"Okay, cool."},{"startTime":4125.384,"endTime":4125.834,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":4125.864,"endTime":4128.624,"body":"I mean so much for this is,"},{"startTime":4125.864,"endTime":4128.624,"body":"this has, this has been, um, a"},{"startTime":4128.624,"endTime":4130.004,"body":"very fun conversation for me."},{"startTime":4130.394,"endTime":4132.404,"body":"Even though I think that"},{"startTime":4130.394,"endTime":4132.404,"body":"vulnerability research"},{"startTime":4132.404,"endTime":4133.994,"body":"is gonna matter more"},{"startTime":4132.404,"endTime":4133.994,"body":"than you think it will."},{"startTime":4134.264,"endTime":4136.364,"body":"Uh, I am super psyched for"},{"startTime":4134.264,"endTime":4136.364,"body":"the book, although I'm a"},{"startTime":4136.364,"endTime":4138.254,"body":"late in life math student,"},{"startTime":4136.364,"endTime":4138.254,"body":"so I'm actually psyched"},{"startTime":4138.254,"endTime":4139.154,"body":"about the math parts of it."},{"startTime":4139.514,"endTime":4142.994,"body":"But still, I'm unbelievably"},{"startTime":4139.514,"endTime":4142.994,"body":"terrible with electronics"},{"startTime":4143.294,"endTime":4145.484,"body":"and I did not realize I"},{"startTime":4143.294,"endTime":4145.484,"body":"could, I did not realize I"},{"startTime":4145.484,"endTime":4147.284,"body":"could download the whole book"},{"startTime":4145.484,"endTime":4147.284,"body":"right now, which is awesome."},{"startTime":4147.524,"endTime":4149.294,"body":"So that is the Secret"},{"startTime":4147.524,"endTime":4149.294,"body":"Life of Circuits."},{"startTime":4149.294,"endTime":4152.444,"body":"That is, uh, Zakys, Zakys."},{"startTime":4153.284,"endTime":4154.124,"body":"I'll get it at some point."},{"startTime":4154.304,"endTime":4157.544,"body":"Uh, new book, um, everything"},{"startTime":4154.304,"endTime":4157.544,"body":"else, he's, we used to"},{"startTime":4157.544,"endTime":4159.734,"body":"give copies of the Tangled"},{"startTime":4157.544,"endTime":4159.734,"body":"Web, which is your second"},{"startTime":4159.974,"endTime":4160.364,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":4160.904,"endTime":4162.914,"body":"to every, candidate that"},{"startTime":4160.904,"endTime":4162.914,"body":"applied at Montesano."},{"startTime":4164.054,"endTime":4166.244,"body":"Just exceptionally good writer."},{"startTime":4166.304,"endTime":4167.144,"body":"Very fun to read."},{"startTime":4167.534,"endTime":4169.484,"body":"Um, so yeah, look, thank"},{"startTime":4167.534,"endTime":4169.484,"body":"you so much for doing this."},{"startTime":4169.484,"endTime":4170.924,"body":"We really, uh, enjoyed"},{"startTime":4169.484,"endTime":4170.924,"body":"talking to you."},{"startTime":4171.0,"endTime":4171.12,"body":"you."},{"startTime":4171.12,"endTime":4174.21,"body":"And you know, after the vul"},{"startTime":4171.12,"endTime":4174.21,"body":"apocalypse, I'm happy to come"},{"startTime":4174.21,"endTime":4178.23,"body":"back, uh, onto the show and you"},{"startTime":4174.21,"endTime":4178.23,"body":"can tell me how wrong I was."},{"startTime":4178.504,"endTime":4179.284,"body":"You're a prepper."},{"startTime":4179.314,"endTime":4182.044,"body":"That was your, your third book"},{"startTime":4179.314,"endTime":4182.044,"body":"is about like preparing for the,"},{"startTime":4182.216,"endTime":4182.546,"body":"Um."},{"startTime":4182.704,"endTime":4184.804,"body":"was about preparing for"},{"startTime":4182.704,"endTime":4184.804,"body":"the vol apocalypse, so"},{"startTime":4184.804,"endTime":4185.944,"body":"I'm sure you'll be ready."},{"startTime":4186.154,"endTime":4187.804,"body":"We'll come to your place"},{"startTime":4186.154,"endTime":4187.804,"body":"because you'll have"},{"startTime":4187.804,"endTime":4188.794,"body":"Water stock pal for us."},{"startTime":4189.094,"endTime":4189.272,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4189.272,"endTime":4191.282,"body":"I have an excavator,"},{"startTime":4189.272,"endTime":4191.282,"body":"so, you know,"},{"startTime":4191.688,"endTime":4192.948,"body":"You don't actually"},{"startTime":4191.688,"endTime":4192.948,"body":"have an excavator, do"},{"startTime":4193.082,"endTime":4194.402,"body":"an excavator, I have a tractor."},{"startTime":4194.402,"endTime":4195.842,"body":"I, you know, I'm, I'm all set."},{"startTime":4197.544,"endTime":4199.584,"body":"You're like, you're buying"},{"startTime":4197.544,"endTime":4199.584,"body":"all the, like the equipment"},{"startTime":4199.584,"endTime":4201.204,"body":"that two year olds were"},{"startTime":4199.584,"endTime":4201.204,"body":"really fascinated by."},{"startTime":4201.204,"endTime":4202.074,"body":"You just have the means."},{"startTime":4202.224,"endTime":4204.924,"body":"You have the means now to buy"},{"startTime":4202.224,"endTime":4204.924,"body":"the real size Tonka trucks."},{"startTime":4204.984,"endTime":4208.404,"body":"the, the trick is you publish"},{"startTime":4204.984,"endTime":4208.404,"body":"a book to make it look legit,"},{"startTime":4208.404,"endTime":4209.124,"body":"and then you can buy whatever."},{"startTime":4211.136,"endTime":4214.886,"body":"Okay, well, uh, when the VM"},{"startTime":4211.136,"endTime":4214.886,"body":"pocalypse comes, we're we're"},{"startTime":4214.886,"endTime":4216.236,"body":"running to your compound."},{"startTime":4216.726,"endTime":4217.116,"body":"Alright."},{"startTime":4217.256,"endTime":4218.306,"body":"you already invited us."},{"startTime":4218.306,"endTime":4219.176,"body":"You can't take it back."},{"startTime":4219.702,"endTime":4220.152,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":4220.646,"endTime":4222.926,"body":"whatever is a side project"},{"startTime":4220.646,"endTime":4222.926,"body":"from Deirdre Connolly,"},{"startTime":4222.926,"endTime":4224.486,"body":"Thomas and David Dian."},{"startTime":4224.546,"endTime":4225.746,"body":"Our editor is Netty Smith."},{"startTime":4225.986,"endTime":4228.746,"body":"You can find the podcast"},{"startTime":4225.986,"endTime":4228.746,"body":"online at CW pod and the host"},{"startTime":4228.746,"endTime":4232.016,"body":"online at Durham Krest at"},{"startTime":4228.746,"endTime":4232.016,"body":"Tqp f and at David c Adrian."},{"startTime":4232.286,"endTime":4234.356,"body":"You can buy merchandise"},{"startTime":4232.286,"endTime":4234.356,"body":"at merch, at security"},{"startTime":4234.356,"endTime":4235.766,"body":"cryptography whatever.com."},{"startTime":4235.976,"endTime":4238.646,"body":"If you like what you're hearing"},{"startTime":4235.976,"endTime":4238.646,"body":"or seeing, give us a five star"},{"startTime":4238.646,"endTime":4241.196,"body":"review wherever you rate your"},{"startTime":4238.646,"endTime":4241.196,"body":"favorite podcast or videos."},{"startTime":4241.196,"endTime":4242.876,"body":"Thank for listening."},{"startTime":4243.352,"endTime":4244.882,"body":"I can't believe he"},{"startTime":4243.352,"endTime":4244.882,"body":"has an excavator."}]}