{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.216,"endTime":3.385,"body":"David - Recording earlier"},{"startTime":0.216,"endTime":3.385,"body":"because like, I don't want to do"},{"startTime":3.385,"endTime":4.442,"body":"cold opens anymore."},{"startTime":4.715,"endTime":7.488,"body":"I just want to have something"},{"startTime":4.715,"endTime":7.488,"body":"from before we actually start"},{"startTime":7.488,"endTime":10.166,"body":"talking to edit it because I"},{"startTime":7.488,"endTime":10.166,"body":"hate copy pasting things in."},{"startTime":10.828,"endTime":11.086,"body":"Deirdre - Okay."},{"startTime":12.523,"endTime":14.089,"body":"David - For example, this."},{"startTime":21.137,"endTime":24.512,"body":"Deirdre - Hello, welcome to"},{"startTime":21.137,"endTime":24.512,"body":"Security Cryptography Whatever."},{"startTime":24.673,"endTime":25.107,"body":"I'm Deirdre."},{"startTime":25.868,"endTime":26.464,"body":"David - I'm David."},{"startTime":26.851,"endTime":29.67,"body":"Thomas is on a plane or"},{"startTime":26.851,"endTime":29.67,"body":"something like that."},{"startTime":29.977,"endTime":32.538,"body":"He's either buying a bandsaw or"},{"startTime":29.977,"endTime":32.538,"body":"on a plane or both."},{"startTime":33.79,"endTime":35.824,"body":"He has a bandsaw on a plane."},{"startTime":35.906,"endTime":36.518,"body":"It's a whole thing."},{"startTime":36.617,"endTime":37.064,"body":"What do you say?"},{"startTime":39.127,"endTime":41.052,"body":"Deirdre - And I hope he doesn't"},{"startTime":39.127,"endTime":41.052,"body":"get arrested."},{"startTime":41.957,"endTime":46.459,"body":"Um, we have a special emergency"},{"startTime":41.957,"endTime":46.459,"body":"pod where we're hopping on to"},{"startTime":46.459,"endTime":51.036,"body":"take advantage of the news that"},{"startTime":46.459,"endTime":51.036,"body":"there is a new executive order"},{"startTime":51.036,"endTime":54.34,"body":"about post-quantum cryptography"},{"startTime":51.036,"endTime":54.34,"body":"specifically."},{"startTime":54.854,"endTime":60.927,"body":"It's not just buried in like 100"},{"startTime":54.854,"endTime":60.927,"body":"pages of a Kyber EO, um, and"},{"startTime":60.927,"endTime":67.101,"body":"the, the top line headline is"},{"startTime":60.927,"endTime":67.101,"body":"the U.S. government is moving up"},{"startTime":67.101,"endTime":73.275,"body":"its post-quantum migration from"},{"startTime":67.101,"endTime":73.275,"body":"approximately 2035 to 2030 and"},{"startTime":73.275,"endTime":73.783,"body":"2031."},{"startTime":74.683,"endTime":77.318,"body":"Uh, so it is ordered, so it"},{"startTime":74.683,"endTime":77.318,"body":"shall be done."},{"startTime":77.672,"endTime":80.61,"body":"Because Golden— because Trump"},{"startTime":77.672,"endTime":80.61,"body":"signed it with the big pen."},{"startTime":81.349,"endTime":85.202,"body":"Um, and so this is our excuse to"},{"startTime":81.349,"endTime":85.202,"body":"finally catch up on a bunch of"},{"startTime":85.202,"endTime":88.992,"body":"news about quantum attacks and"},{"startTime":85.202,"endTime":88.992,"body":"post-quantum cryptography and a"},{"startTime":88.992,"endTime":92.534,"body":"whole bunch of other little"},{"startTime":88.992,"endTime":92.534,"body":"thingies that have happened in"},{"startTime":92.534,"endTime":96.387,"body":"basically the last 3 months that"},{"startTime":92.534,"endTime":96.387,"body":"we just never really hopped on"},{"startTime":96.387,"endTime":99.558,"body":"the pod and talked about, even"},{"startTime":96.387,"endTime":99.558,"body":"though they happened."},{"startTime":100.377,"endTime":103.107,"body":"Um, David, what do you think?"},{"startTime":103.38,"endTime":106.974,"body":"David - Which had the EO on it"},{"startTime":103.38,"endTime":106.974,"body":"because I hit this fun bug where"},{"startTime":106.974,"endTime":110.568,"body":"if you set your window height at"},{"startTime":106.974,"endTime":110.568,"body":"the exact right spot, the, the"},{"startTime":110.568,"endTime":113.93,"body":"dropdown on the Trump White"},{"startTime":110.568,"endTime":113.93,"body":"House site would just bounce up"},{"startTime":113.93,"endTime":117.35,"body":"and down and up and down and up"},{"startTime":113.93,"endTime":117.35,"body":"and down like a Jack Russell"},{"startTime":117.35,"endTime":117.814,"body":"Terrier."},{"startTime":118.28,"endTime":121.086,"body":"Um, but as soon as I started"},{"startTime":118.28,"endTime":121.086,"body":"streaming, it adjusted the"},{"startTime":121.086,"endTime":123.53,"body":"window size and now you can't"},{"startTime":121.086,"endTime":123.53,"body":"see the funny bug."},{"startTime":123.835,"endTime":127.528,"body":"Anyway, great, great technology,"},{"startTime":123.835,"endTime":127.528,"body":"bleeding edge cryptography here."},{"startTime":127.672,"endTime":130.755,"body":"Okay, so I figured let's just go"},{"startTime":127.672,"endTime":130.755,"body":"through the EO."},{"startTime":131.317,"endTime":131.638,"body":"Deirdre - Sure."},{"startTime":132.248,"endTime":136.065,"body":"Um, the context for this EO,"},{"startTime":132.248,"endTime":136.065,"body":"this executive order from our"},{"startTime":136.065,"endTime":138.008,"body":"dear leader, President Trump."},{"startTime":139.939,"endTime":142.328,"body":"Also, we did not— we do not have"},{"startTime":139.939,"endTime":142.328,"body":"a crystal ball."},{"startTime":142.78,"endTime":147.626,"body":"We have produced multiple"},{"startTime":142.78,"endTime":147.626,"body":"episodes, and by we I mean David"},{"startTime":147.626,"endTime":152.387,"body":"produced multiple episodes"},{"startTime":147.626,"endTime":152.387,"body":"featuring, um, some, you know,"},{"startTime":152.387,"endTime":154.174,"body":"fictional presidents."},{"startTime":154.66,"endTime":158.573,"body":"Yes, the AI Gamer presidents,"},{"startTime":154.66,"endTime":158.573,"body":"who, including, including our"},{"startTime":158.573,"endTime":162.756,"body":"dear leader, a fake version of"},{"startTime":158.573,"endTime":162.756,"body":"our— of President Trump, talking"},{"startTime":162.756,"endTime":166.736,"body":"about post-quantum cryptography"},{"startTime":162.756,"endTime":166.736,"body":"and quantum cryptography and"},{"startTime":166.736,"endTime":167.885,"body":"things like that."},{"startTime":168.35,"endTime":172.839,"body":"And we do— do not ask us for"},{"startTime":168.35,"endTime":172.839,"body":"KALSHI bets."},{"startTime":173.016,"endTime":176.415,"body":"Do not ask us what the spreads"},{"startTime":173.016,"endTime":176.415,"body":"should be for anything else."},{"startTime":177.57,"endTime":181.546,"body":"We, we were doing satire and"},{"startTime":177.57,"endTime":181.546,"body":"unfortunately it became real."},{"startTime":182.059,"endTime":184.817,"body":"That seems to be a current risk"},{"startTime":182.059,"endTime":184.817,"body":"of doing satire."},{"startTime":184.929,"endTime":187.519,"body":"David - However, the official"},{"startTime":184.929,"endTime":187.519,"body":"stance of this podcast is that"},{"startTime":187.519,"endTime":189.451,"body":"insider trading makes markets"},{"startTime":187.519,"endTime":189.451,"body":"more efficient."},{"startTime":190.894,"endTime":192.257,"body":"Deirdre - Sure, sure, why not?"},{"startTime":192.722,"endTime":192.979,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":193.204,"endTime":197.928,"body":"Anyway, so the context is in, in"},{"startTime":193.204,"endTime":197.928,"body":"March, um, there were some"},{"startTime":197.928,"endTime":201.919,"body":"results for both improving"},{"startTime":197.928,"endTime":201.919,"body":"quantum attacks against"},{"startTime":201.919,"endTime":206.154,"body":"especially elliptic curve"},{"startTime":201.919,"endTime":206.154,"body":"Diffie-Hellman, or elliptic"},{"startTime":206.154,"endTime":211.285,"body":"curve, sorry, the elliptic curve"},{"startTime":206.154,"endTime":211.285,"body":"discrete logarithm problem, um,"},{"startTime":211.285,"endTime":216.172,"body":"and there were improvements, uh,"},{"startTime":211.285,"endTime":216.172,"body":"in, uh, in different ways of"},{"startTime":216.172,"endTime":220.733,"body":"producing a quantum computer,"},{"startTime":216.172,"endTime":220.733,"body":"specifically about building"},{"startTime":220.733,"endTime":223.751,"body":"quantum computers using neutral"},{"startTime":220.733,"endTime":223.751,"body":"atoms."},{"startTime":224.57,"endTime":228.532,"body":"And basically, um, we've— we had"},{"startTime":224.57,"endTime":228.532,"body":"multiple results that were kind"},{"startTime":228.532,"endTime":232.179,"body":"of percolating amongst, you"},{"startTime":228.532,"endTime":232.179,"body":"know, the, the Whisper network,"},{"startTime":232.179,"endTime":235.639,"body":"uh, and then got published by"},{"startTime":232.179,"endTime":235.639,"body":"Google, uh, predominantly."},{"startTime":235.736,"endTime":239.691,"body":"They put— I think they published"},{"startTime":235.736,"endTime":239.691,"body":"both things, the, the neutral"},{"startTime":239.691,"endTime":243.581,"body":"atom stuff and this, uh, this"},{"startTime":239.691,"endTime":243.581,"body":"improved attack efficient, more"},{"startTime":243.581,"endTime":247.212,"body":"efficient attack against, uh,"},{"startTime":243.581,"endTime":247.212,"body":"the elliptic curve discrete"},{"startTime":247.212,"endTime":248.381,"body":"logarithm problem."},{"startTime":248.429,"endTime":252.455,"body":"And they specifically were"},{"startTime":248.429,"endTime":252.455,"body":"trying to be like, this is, uh,"},{"startTime":252.455,"endTime":256.269,"body":"we think this will make"},{"startTime":252.455,"endTime":256.269,"body":"attacking P-256, um, especially"},{"startTime":256.269,"endTime":260.366,"body":"EC, the ECDSA signature scheme"},{"startTime":256.269,"endTime":260.366,"body":"over P-256, uh, much easier."},{"startTime":260.606,"endTime":264.205,"body":"And then you put those things"},{"startTime":260.606,"endTime":264.205,"body":"together, you— it's much more"},{"startTime":264.205,"endTime":267.431,"body":"efficient, uh, to get a, a"},{"startTime":264.205,"endTime":267.431,"body":"cryptographically relevant"},{"startTime":267.431,"endTime":270.968,"body":"quantum computer, and you get a"},{"startTime":267.431,"endTime":270.968,"body":"much more efficient attack"},{"startTime":270.968,"endTime":271.59,"body":"algorithm."},{"startTime":271.59,"endTime":275.701,"body":"And basically the projection of"},{"startTime":271.59,"endTime":275.701,"body":"where you get a scary quantum"},{"startTime":275.701,"endTime":279.675,"body":"computer that can run a scary,"},{"startTime":275.701,"endTime":279.675,"body":"very fast for what we've had"},{"startTime":279.675,"endTime":283.17,"body":"before, quantum attack"},{"startTime":279.675,"endTime":283.17,"body":"algorithm, especially against"},{"startTime":283.17,"endTime":287.144,"body":"elliptic curves, brought that"},{"startTime":283.17,"endTime":287.144,"body":"reality, projected reality, a"},{"startTime":287.144,"endTime":287.9,"body":"lot closer."},{"startTime":288.19,"endTime":292.307,"body":"And in response to that, Google"},{"startTime":288.19,"endTime":292.307,"body":"and Cloudflare announced that"},{"startTime":292.307,"endTime":296.561,"body":"they were gonna be moving their"},{"startTime":292.307,"endTime":296.561,"body":"targeted, their target dates to"},{"startTime":296.561,"endTime":300.61,"body":"be quantum fully migrated to"},{"startTime":296.561,"endTime":300.61,"body":"quantum-resistant cryptography."},{"startTime":301.186,"endTime":303.579,"body":"Up to the end of 2029."},{"startTime":304.317,"endTime":307.632,"body":"And then I think a lot of people"},{"startTime":304.317,"endTime":307.632,"body":"in the industry like really"},{"startTime":307.632,"endTime":310.891,"body":"stood up and started paying"},{"startTime":307.632,"endTime":310.891,"body":"attention because that's moving"},{"startTime":310.891,"endTime":314.319,"body":"up target dates that people have"},{"startTime":310.891,"endTime":314.319,"body":"been working against up by at"},{"startTime":314.319,"endTime":315.107,"body":"least 5 years."},{"startTime":315.172,"endTime":316.264,"body":"It was more 5 or 6 years."},{"startTime":316.328,"endTime":318.062,"body":"David - Start of 2029 actually"},{"startTime":316.328,"endTime":318.062,"body":"is what Google—."},{"startTime":318.062,"endTime":318.929,"body":"Deirdre - Oh, did they say that?"},{"startTime":319.009,"endTime":319.571,"body":"Oh gosh."},{"startTime":320.294,"endTime":323.807,"body":"Um, so, but that happened in"},{"startTime":320.294,"endTime":323.807,"body":"March-ish, and we'll have links"},{"startTime":323.807,"endTime":325.833,"body":"to those in the, in the show"},{"startTime":323.807,"endTime":325.833,"body":"notes."},{"startTime":326.732,"endTime":331.051,"body":"We— some people have been saying"},{"startTime":326.732,"endTime":331.051,"body":"there might be a, another Kyber"},{"startTime":331.051,"endTime":334.684,"body":"EO, executive order, or a"},{"startTime":331.051,"endTime":334.684,"body":"cryptography EO or something"},{"startTime":334.684,"endTime":335.37,"body":"like that."},{"startTime":335.451,"endTime":338.774,"body":"But like, you know, you never"},{"startTime":335.451,"endTime":338.774,"body":"know what the fuck's going on,"},{"startTime":338.774,"endTime":341.028,"body":"uh, in, uh, our dear leader's,"},{"startTime":338.774,"endTime":341.028,"body":"uh, house."},{"startTime":341.781,"endTime":345.799,"body":"Uh, so this just showed up"},{"startTime":341.781,"endTime":345.799,"body":"yesterday, and there's some"},{"startTime":345.799,"endTime":350.196,"body":"lovely video of, of Trump just"},{"startTime":345.799,"endTime":350.196,"body":"talking, learning the phrase"},{"startTime":350.196,"endTime":354.747,"body":"quantum cryptography for the"},{"startTime":350.196,"endTime":354.747,"body":"very first time and uttering it."},{"startTime":355.004,"endTime":358.81,"body":"The result is Um, but it's a lot"},{"startTime":355.004,"endTime":358.81,"body":"of fun."},{"startTime":358.924,"endTime":362.092,"body":"David - And pointing out that no"},{"startTime":358.924,"endTime":362.092,"body":"one cares when, when Einstein—"},{"startTime":362.092,"endTime":364.749,"body":"what year Einstein published"},{"startTime":362.092,"endTime":364.749,"body":"some paper about quantum"},{"startTime":364.749,"endTime":366.335,"body":"something or other, apparently."},{"startTime":366.624,"endTime":367.62,"body":"Deirdre - So here it is."},{"startTime":367.877,"endTime":371.249,"body":"This is, uh, Securing the Nation"},{"startTime":367.877,"endTime":371.249,"body":"Against Advanced Cryptographic"},{"startTime":371.249,"endTime":371.685,"body":"Attacks."},{"startTime":372.134,"endTime":375.262,"body":"And yeah, there's a— there's"},{"startTime":372.134,"endTime":375.262,"body":"several things in here actually,"},{"startTime":375.262,"endTime":378.442,"body":"because I thought it was just"},{"startTime":375.262,"endTime":378.442,"body":"about cryptography, and it's not"},{"startTime":378.442,"endTime":380.944,"body":"just about the, the"},{"startTime":378.442,"endTime":380.944,"body":"cryptography, uh, of the, uh,"},{"startTime":380.944,"endTime":381.988,"body":"the U.S. government."},{"startTime":382.817,"endTime":386.651,"body":"David - Um, so for the sake of"},{"startTime":382.817,"endTime":386.651,"body":"the like 8 readers that, um,"},{"startTime":386.651,"endTime":390.683,"body":"take audio only, what we'll do"},{"startTime":386.651,"endTime":390.683,"body":"is we'll read through, I think,"},{"startTime":390.683,"endTime":391.544,"body":"most of this."},{"startTime":392.074,"endTime":392.138,"body":"Deirdre - Okay."},{"startTime":392.282,"endTime":394.953,"body":"David - And then pause and talk"},{"startTime":392.282,"endTime":394.953,"body":"through it instead of relying on"},{"startTime":394.953,"endTime":396.437,"body":"everybody to simply read the"},{"startTime":394.953,"endTime":396.437,"body":"screen."},{"startTime":397.496,"endTime":401.215,"body":"Um, so section 1, the advent of"},{"startTime":397.496,"endTime":401.215,"body":"large-scale quantum computers,"},{"startTime":401.215,"endTime":404.386,"body":"particularly in the hands of"},{"startTime":401.215,"endTime":404.386,"body":"adversaries, will pose a"},{"startTime":404.386,"endTime":407.74,"body":"significant threat to widely"},{"startTime":404.386,"endTime":407.74,"body":"used cryptographic security"},{"startTime":407.74,"endTime":408.229,"body":"systems."},{"startTime":408.729,"endTime":412.289,"body":"Ongoing Kyber activity against"},{"startTime":408.729,"endTime":412.289,"body":"our nation also presents the"},{"startTime":412.289,"endTime":415.911,"body":"risk of adversaries collecting"},{"startTime":412.289,"endTime":415.911,"body":"United States information now"},{"startTime":415.911,"endTime":419.287,"body":"and decrypting it once the"},{"startTime":415.911,"endTime":419.287,"body":"large-scale quantum computers"},{"startTime":419.287,"endTime":420.271,"body":"are operational."},{"startTime":420.544,"endTime":422.043,"body":"Deirdre - I agree."},{"startTime":422.22,"endTime":426.123,"body":"David - So right off the bat, we"},{"startTime":422.22,"endTime":426.123,"body":"have a reference to the store"},{"startTime":426.123,"endTime":430.154,"body":"now, decrypt later threat, which"},{"startTime":426.123,"endTime":430.154,"body":"we have talked on and on and on"},{"startTime":430.154,"endTime":430.538,"body":"about."},{"startTime":432.417,"endTime":438.151,"body":"I mean, it's still not clear,"},{"startTime":432.417,"endTime":438.151,"body":"like, who this risk acts like in"},{"startTime":438.151,"endTime":440.595,"body":"the grand scheme of risks."},{"startTime":441.39,"endTime":442.395,"body":"Where does this apply to you?"},{"startTime":442.703,"endTime":446.456,"body":"But this is sort of the main"},{"startTime":442.703,"endTime":446.456,"body":"risk of quantum computers now."},{"startTime":448.181,"endTime":450.883,"body":"Deirdre - It is the live threat,"},{"startTime":448.181,"endTime":450.883,"body":"if that is within your threat"},{"startTime":450.883,"endTime":451.149,"body":"model."},{"startTime":452.096,"endTime":454.796,"body":"David - Um, in light of these"},{"startTime":452.096,"endTime":454.796,"body":"threats, the United States must"},{"startTime":454.796,"endTime":457.001,"body":"take steps to strengthen"},{"startTime":454.796,"endTime":457.001,"body":"cryptographic protection,"},{"startTime":457.001,"endTime":459.341,"body":"protections for the nation's"},{"startTime":457.001,"endTime":459.341,"body":"sensitive data, critical"},{"startTime":459.341,"endTime":460.919,"body":"infrastructure, and digital"},{"startTime":459.341,"endTime":460.919,"body":"economy."},{"startTime":461.987,"endTime":465.025,"body":"Uh, it is the policy of the"},{"startTime":461.987,"endTime":465.025,"body":"United States to safeguard"},{"startTime":465.025,"endTime":468.293,"body":"national security and maintain"},{"startTime":465.025,"endTime":468.293,"body":"technological leadership by"},{"startTime":468.293,"endTime":471.389,"body":"responsibly and effectively"},{"startTime":468.293,"endTime":471.389,"body":"executing the transition of"},{"startTime":471.389,"endTime":474.542,"body":"federal information systems to"},{"startTime":471.389,"endTime":474.542,"body":"the NIST-approved Federal"},{"startTime":474.542,"endTime":476.95,"body":"Information Processing"},{"startTime":474.542,"endTime":476.95,"body":"Standards, FIPS, for"},{"startTime":476.95,"endTime":479.988,"body":"post-quantum cryptography, PQC,"},{"startTime":476.95,"endTime":479.988,"body":"and to assist critical"},{"startTime":479.988,"endTime":482.568,"body":"infrastructure owners and"},{"startTime":479.988,"endTime":482.568,"body":"operators with their"},{"startTime":482.568,"endTime":483.259,"body":"transitions."},{"startTime":484.028,"endTime":488.851,"body":"Um, so, um, unfortunately,"},{"startTime":484.028,"endTime":488.851,"body":"unlike AI Gamer Obama, who said"},{"startTime":488.851,"endTime":493.422,"body":"that he would become a"},{"startTime":488.851,"endTime":493.422,"body":"Republican if Doge got rid FIPS."},{"startTime":494.207,"endTime":495.489,"body":"Um, well, we still have FIPS."},{"startTime":496.146,"endTime":498.61,"body":"Section 2 is just a bunch of"},{"startTime":496.146,"endTime":498.61,"body":"definitions, so we'll skip all"},{"startTime":498.61,"endTime":498.95,"body":"of that."},{"startTime":499.335,"endTime":503.487,"body":"Deirdre - Although the one thing"},{"startTime":499.335,"endTime":503.487,"body":"that I will not skip is the term"},{"startTime":503.487,"endTime":507.379,"body":"high-value asset, or HVA, um,"},{"startTime":503.487,"endTime":507.379,"body":"which has a specific definition"},{"startTime":507.379,"endTime":510.04,"body":"and an OMB memo, blah blah blah"},{"startTime":507.379,"endTime":510.04,"body":"blah blah."},{"startTime":510.953,"endTime":514.948,"body":"And this is— and the, uh,"},{"startTime":510.953,"endTime":514.948,"body":"another definition that follows,"},{"startTime":514.948,"endTime":517.892,"body":"the term national security"},{"startTime":514.948,"endTime":517.892,"body":"systems, or NSS."},{"startTime":518.357,"endTime":522.938,"body":"So Up until about recently,"},{"startTime":518.357,"endTime":522.938,"body":"until this memo actually, the"},{"startTime":522.938,"endTime":527.274,"body":"U.S. government has been"},{"startTime":522.938,"endTime":527.274,"body":"targeting, um, FIPS standards"},{"startTime":527.274,"endTime":531.855,"body":"that includes post-quantum"},{"startTime":527.274,"endTime":531.855,"body":"cryptography, uh, to be rolled"},{"startTime":531.855,"endTime":535.62,"body":"out and in use by any of these"},{"startTime":531.855,"endTime":535.62,"body":"applied systems."},{"startTime":535.684,"endTime":538.543,"body":"So this is like any system that"},{"startTime":535.684,"endTime":538.543,"body":"the U.S. government is using."},{"startTime":538.655,"endTime":541.417,"body":"This includes like the"},{"startTime":538.655,"endTime":541.417,"body":"Department of Education to, you"},{"startTime":541.417,"endTime":543.971,"body":"know, this freaking website that"},{"startTime":541.417,"endTime":543.971,"body":"we're looking at."},{"startTime":544.019,"endTime":546.754,"body":"I'm pretty sure this has to be"},{"startTime":544.019,"endTime":546.754,"body":"served with NIST curves or"},{"startTime":546.754,"endTime":548.366,"body":"something like that at the"},{"startTime":546.754,"endTime":548.366,"body":"moment."},{"startTime":548.831,"endTime":553.57,"body":"Um, that's all U.S. federal"},{"startTime":548.831,"endTime":553.57,"body":"government, uh, from very boring"},{"startTime":553.57,"endTime":555.74,"body":"stuff to less boring stuff."},{"startTime":556.285,"endTime":560.367,"body":"For national security systems"},{"startTime":556.285,"endTime":560.367,"body":"like Department of Defense stuff"},{"startTime":560.367,"endTime":564.316,"body":"or NSA stuff or top secret SCI,"},{"startTime":560.367,"endTime":564.316,"body":"no foreign system stuff like"},{"startTime":564.316,"endTime":568.398,"body":"that, they have their own suite"},{"startTime":564.316,"endTime":568.398,"body":"of more constrained algorithms"},{"startTime":568.398,"endTime":572.547,"body":"that are basically a subset of"},{"startTime":568.398,"endTime":572.547,"body":"the FIS FIPS stuff, and they are"},{"startTime":572.547,"endTime":576.696,"body":"using PQ only, no hybrid, except"},{"startTime":572.547,"endTime":576.696,"body":"for, you know, if you're doing"},{"startTime":576.696,"endTime":580.511,"body":"IPsec or something like that,"},{"startTime":576.696,"endTime":580.511,"body":"you're doing some VPN stuff,"},{"startTime":580.511,"endTime":583.125,"body":"they trust elliptic curves a"},{"startTime":580.511,"endTime":583.125,"body":"little bit."},{"startTime":583.719,"endTime":586.985,"body":"Um, they just have a much more"},{"startTime":583.719,"endTime":586.985,"body":"constrained set, and they have"},{"startTime":586.985,"endTime":590.415,"body":"all of the parameter sets pegged"},{"startTime":586.985,"endTime":590.415,"body":"to the most tippy-top parameter"},{"startTime":590.415,"endTime":591.124,"body":"set possible."},{"startTime":591.83,"endTime":596.585,"body":"Um, those were all trying to get"},{"startTime":591.83,"endTime":596.585,"body":"migrated by the end of 2035,"},{"startTime":596.585,"endTime":601.182,"body":"although I think there were"},{"startTime":596.585,"endTime":601.182,"body":"different targets for different"},{"startTime":601.182,"endTime":602.848,"body":"systems for CNSA 2.0."},{"startTime":602.928,"endTime":604.871,"body":"They were trying to get some"},{"startTime":602.928,"endTime":604.871,"body":"stuff migrated earlier."},{"startTime":606.043,"endTime":609.913,"body":"David - For CNSA 2.0, it's"},{"startTime":606.043,"endTime":609.913,"body":"really vague, but it was kind of"},{"startTime":609.913,"endTime":612.45,"body":"already closer to 2031 for most"},{"startTime":609.913,"endTime":612.45,"body":"things."},{"startTime":612.626,"endTime":616.528,"body":"And there's a statement that's"},{"startTime":612.626,"endTime":616.528,"body":"very vague about like new"},{"startTime":616.528,"endTime":620.288,"body":"systems, new, new procurements"},{"startTime":616.528,"endTime":620.288,"body":"should be like CNSA 2.0"},{"startTime":620.288,"endTime":624.616,"body":"compliant in starting in 2027,"},{"startTime":620.288,"endTime":624.616,"body":"which like is just on one hand,"},{"startTime":624.616,"endTime":626.959,"body":"just like not gonna happen at"},{"startTime":624.616,"endTime":626.959,"body":"all."},{"startTime":627.312,"endTime":630.601,"body":"On the other hand, like, um,"},{"startTime":627.312,"endTime":630.601,"body":"talking with the people that"},{"startTime":630.601,"endTime":634.359,"body":"wrote that, what it really means"},{"startTime":630.601,"endTime":634.359,"body":"is you better not be charging us"},{"startTime":634.359,"endTime":635.711,"body":"an extra update for it."},{"startTime":636.208,"endTime":636.288,"body":"Deirdre - Right."},{"startTime":636.368,"endTime":636.945,"body":"David - Uh, okay."},{"startTime":637.426,"endTime":637.683,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":638.083,"endTime":641.904,"body":"David - So, um, they should be"},{"startTime":638.083,"endTime":641.904,"body":"doing as much CNSA 2 things as"},{"startTime":641.904,"endTime":642.86,"body":"are reasonable."},{"startTime":643.036,"endTime":643.1,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":643.517,"endTime":647.061,"body":"David - So for example, like"},{"startTime":643.517,"endTime":647.061,"body":"you're not gonna have, uh, um,"},{"startTime":647.061,"endTime":650.972,"body":"an HTTPS certificate that's CNSA"},{"startTime":647.061,"endTime":650.972,"body":"2 compliant for like a number of"},{"startTime":650.972,"endTime":651.339,"body":"years."},{"startTime":652.34,"endTime":652.63,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":652.776,"endTime":652.857,"body":"Bye."},{"startTime":655.443,"endTime":656.753,"body":"That's publicly trusted."},{"startTime":656.979,"endTime":657.286,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":657.464,"endTime":658.531,"body":"David - That's publicly trusted."},{"startTime":658.596,"endTime":658.741,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":658.838,"endTime":661.183,"body":"David - For private PKIs, you"},{"startTime":658.838,"endTime":661.183,"body":"can do whatever you want."},{"startTime":661.296,"endTime":661.619,"body":"Starting—."},{"startTime":661.619,"endTime":663.485,"body":"Deirdre - You can basically do"},{"startTime":661.619,"endTime":663.485,"body":"it now, depending—."},{"startTime":663.502,"endTime":666.699,"body":"David - In Chrome 150, which"},{"startTime":663.502,"endTime":666.699,"body":"releases on June 30th."},{"startTime":667.149,"endTime":668.048,"body":"So 7 days from now."},{"startTime":668.578,"endTime":669.125,"body":"Deirdre - That's nice."},{"startTime":669.526,"endTime":669.944,"body":"David - You'll be—."},{"startTime":669.944,"endTime":670.715,"body":"Deirdre - Breaking news."},{"startTime":670.988,"endTime":672.464,"body":"Breaking news on the podcast."},{"startTime":672.53,"endTime":673.611,"body":"David - I don't know that it's"},{"startTime":672.53,"endTime":673.611,"body":"breaking."},{"startTime":673.742,"endTime":676.758,"body":"It's like on a public site"},{"startTime":673.742,"endTime":676.758,"body":"describing Chrome releases."},{"startTime":677.322,"endTime":678.341,"body":"Deirdre - This is a scoops."},{"startTime":678.455,"endTime":679.507,"body":"We're doing scoops."},{"startTime":679.604,"endTime":680.138,"body":"Scoops."},{"startTime":680.478,"endTime":682.76,"body":"Who cares where the information"},{"startTime":680.478,"endTime":682.76,"body":"came from?"},{"startTime":682.824,"endTime":683.488,"body":"It's an exclusive."},{"startTime":683.65,"endTime":686.895,"body":"David - It's been discussed on"},{"startTime":683.65,"endTime":686.895,"body":"IETF threads by other"},{"startTime":686.895,"endTime":687.723,"body":"implementers."},{"startTime":688.159,"endTime":688.256,"body":"Uh-huh."},{"startTime":689.918,"endTime":690.467,"body":"Breaking news."},{"startTime":692.097,"endTime":696.332,"body":"Deirdre - One of the only other"},{"startTime":692.097,"endTime":696.332,"body":"definitions in the section is"},{"startTime":696.332,"endTime":700.002,"body":"the Cryptographic Module"},{"startTime":696.332,"endTime":700.002,"body":"Validation Program, the CMVP"},{"startTime":700.002,"endTime":703.391,"body":"program, which is part of"},{"startTime":700.002,"endTime":703.391,"body":"getting FIPS certified."},{"startTime":703.439,"endTime":706.704,"body":"So if anyone has ever mentioned"},{"startTime":703.439,"endTime":706.704,"body":"anything about being FIPS"},{"startTime":706.704,"endTime":709.795,"body":"certified, This is the program"},{"startTime":706.704,"endTime":709.795,"body":"that basically does it."},{"startTime":710.179,"endTime":713.694,"body":"It started with hardware and"},{"startTime":710.179,"endTime":713.694,"body":"firmware implementations and"},{"startTime":713.694,"endTime":717.021,"body":"then they just said also we'll,"},{"startTime":713.694,"endTime":717.021,"body":"we'll certify software"},{"startTime":717.021,"endTime":720.978,"body":"implementations of FIPS stuff in"},{"startTime":717.021,"endTime":720.978,"body":"a module, in a module boundary."},{"startTime":721.314,"endTime":723.381,"body":"And it's, you know, it's a whole"},{"startTime":721.314,"endTime":723.381,"body":"thing."},{"startTime":724.038,"endTime":727.807,"body":"And unfortunately it leads to"},{"startTime":724.038,"endTime":727.807,"body":"kind of, you know, reading the"},{"startTime":727.807,"endTime":731.704,"body":"tea leaves to try and predict"},{"startTime":727.807,"endTime":731.704,"body":"what will be FIPS certifiable or"},{"startTime":731.704,"endTime":734.836,"body":"not in the program, the lab that"},{"startTime":731.704,"endTime":734.836,"body":"does the program."},{"startTime":735.333,"endTime":736.999,"body":"And a lot of that is wrong."},{"startTime":737.432,"endTime":739.568,"body":"But that's what that is."},{"startTime":739.986,"endTime":740.853,"body":"And we'll talk about that later."},{"startTime":740.934,"endTime":743.045,"body":"David - There's, there's two"},{"startTime":740.934,"endTime":743.045,"body":"types of FIPS certification"},{"startTime":743.045,"endTime":743.391,"body":"actually."},{"startTime":743.456,"endTime":746.506,"body":"There's the, well, there's a"},{"startTime":743.456,"endTime":746.506,"body":"bunch of types, but relevant to"},{"startTime":746.506,"endTime":749.4,"body":"this, there's, there's the CMVP,"},{"startTime":746.506,"endTime":749.4,"body":"the Cryptographic Module"},{"startTime":749.4,"endTime":752.451,"body":"Validation Program, which is the"},{"startTime":749.4,"endTime":752.451,"body":"really annoying one to get."},{"startTime":752.595,"endTime":752.692,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":752.933,"endTime":754.459,"body":"David - That a lot of things"},{"startTime":752.933,"endTime":754.459,"body":"require."},{"startTime":754.603,"endTime":758.571,"body":"And then there is Cryptographic"},{"startTime":754.603,"endTime":758.571,"body":"Algorithm Validation, CAVP."},{"startTime":758.635,"endTime":758.731,"body":"Deirdre - True."},{"startTime":758.796,"endTime":758.94,"body":"David - Yes."},{"startTime":759.438,"endTime":761.655,"body":"Which is more straightforward to"},{"startTime":759.438,"endTime":761.655,"body":"get."},{"startTime":762.008,"endTime":765.236,"body":"'Cause CAVP is like, did you"},{"startTime":762.008,"endTime":765.236,"body":"implement this algorithm"},{"startTime":765.236,"endTime":767.782,"body":"correctly based on like some"},{"startTime":765.236,"endTime":767.782,"body":"test vectors."},{"startTime":767.831,"endTime":768.107,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":768.61,"endTime":772.856,"body":"Deirdre - And CMVP is like, do"},{"startTime":768.61,"endTime":772.856,"body":"you meet all of these arbitrary"},{"startTime":772.856,"endTime":776.893,"body":"other like, um, requirements"},{"startTime":772.856,"endTime":776.893,"body":"that make it very difficult to"},{"startTime":776.893,"endTime":780.791,"body":"test in like, like how do you,"},{"startTime":776.893,"endTime":780.791,"body":"like, everything has to be"},{"startTime":780.791,"endTime":785.037,"body":"within a module boundary and it"},{"startTime":780.791,"endTime":785.037,"body":"has to be started up a certain"},{"startTime":785.037,"endTime":785.316,"body":"way."},{"startTime":785.944,"endTime":788.397,"body":"David - And this is why it needs"},{"startTime":785.944,"endTime":788.397,"body":"to be able to do a self-test"},{"startTime":788.397,"endTime":789.133,"body":"with fixed random."},{"startTime":789.197,"endTime":791.723,"body":"So you have to build in like a"},{"startTime":789.197,"endTime":791.723,"body":"backdoor to your system to prove"},{"startTime":791.723,"endTime":792.824,"body":"that it operates correctly."},{"startTime":792.892,"endTime":794.691,"body":"Basically it's a pain in the"},{"startTime":792.892,"endTime":794.691,"body":"ass."},{"startTime":795.076,"endTime":795.317,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":795.542,"endTime":799.11,"body":"David - Um, and then you have to"},{"startTime":795.542,"endTime":799.11,"body":"certify it on every, uh, uh,"},{"startTime":799.11,"endTime":802.5,"body":"well, depending you, in theory,"},{"startTime":799.11,"endTime":802.5,"body":"it, the certification only"},{"startTime":802.5,"endTime":804.405,"body":"applies to specific"},{"startTime":802.5,"endTime":804.405,"body":"environments."},{"startTime":804.453,"endTime":808.034,"body":"So for example, like Arch Linux"},{"startTime":804.453,"endTime":808.034,"body":"4.0 on a Chromebook."},{"startTime":808.547,"endTime":808.628,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":808.804,"endTime":811.1,"body":"David - Or like Debian in Google"},{"startTime":808.804,"endTime":811.1,"body":"Cloud."},{"startTime":811.534,"endTime":811.678,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":811.759,"endTime":814.787,"body":"David - Um, and in practice what"},{"startTime":811.759,"endTime":814.787,"body":"you do is you get some bullshit"},{"startTime":814.787,"endTime":817.718,"body":"certified for some platform and"},{"startTime":814.787,"endTime":817.718,"body":"then you convince your auditor"},{"startTime":817.718,"endTime":819.209,"body":"that that's what everything is."},{"startTime":819.562,"endTime":819.723,"body":"Deirdre - Yep."},{"startTime":820.124,"endTime":823.337,"body":"But you still have to like"},{"startTime":820.124,"endTime":823.337,"body":"juggle all of those like certs"},{"startTime":823.337,"endTime":826.607,"body":"in case you, your compliance"},{"startTime":823.337,"endTime":826.607,"body":"auditor is like, is your cert"},{"startTime":826.607,"endTime":829.592,"body":"for this module on this platform"},{"startTime":826.607,"endTime":829.592,"body":"is still up to date?"},{"startTime":830.138,"endTime":831.775,"body":"And you have to keep it alive."},{"startTime":831.839,"endTime":835.599,"body":"And that's a lot of juggling"},{"startTime":831.839,"endTime":835.599,"body":"and, you know, bookkeeping for"},{"startTime":835.599,"endTime":838.387,"body":"questionable amounts of"},{"startTime":835.599,"endTime":838.387,"body":"additional security."},{"startTime":838.692,"endTime":842.102,"body":"David - So, and then NIST will"},{"startTime":838.692,"endTime":842.102,"body":"take like 6 to 18 months to"},{"startTime":842.102,"endTime":845.513,"body":"actually issue your certificate"},{"startTime":842.102,"endTime":845.513,"body":"once you pass the testing."},{"startTime":845.962,"endTime":846.299,"body":"Deirdre - That too."},{"startTime":846.765,"endTime":846.926,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":847.006,"endTime":849.703,"body":"Section 3, Coordinating the PQC"},{"startTime":847.006,"endTime":849.703,"body":"Transition."},{"startTime":849.8,"endTime":852.623,"body":"The Director of OMB and the"},{"startTime":849.8,"endTime":852.623,"body":"National Kyber Director, in"},{"startTime":852.623,"endTime":855.707,"body":"consultation with the Assistant"},{"startTime":852.623,"endTime":855.707,"body":"to the President of National"},{"startTime":855.707,"endTime":858.53,"body":"Security Affairs and the"},{"startTime":855.707,"endTime":858.53,"body":"Administrator of the Office of"},{"startTime":858.53,"endTime":861.771,"body":"Electronic Government— I didn't"},{"startTime":858.53,"endTime":861.771,"body":"know that that was a thing— OMB"},{"startTime":861.771,"endTime":864.542,"body":"shall lead the strategic"},{"startTime":861.771,"endTime":864.542,"body":"coordination oversight of the"},{"startTime":864.542,"endTime":867.626,"body":"national PQC migration policy"},{"startTime":864.542,"endTime":867.626,"body":"and strategy set forth in this"},{"startTime":867.626,"endTime":870.501,"body":"order, ensuring its alignment"},{"startTime":867.626,"endTime":870.501,"body":"with broader cybersecurity"},{"startTime":870.501,"endTime":870.818,"body":"goals."},{"startTime":871.412,"endTime":875.158,"body":"B, the Secretary of Commerce,"},{"startTime":871.412,"endTime":875.158,"body":"Blutnick, through the Director"},{"startTime":875.158,"endTime":878.714,"body":"of NIST and in consultation with"},{"startTime":875.158,"endTime":878.714,"body":"the Director of National"},{"startTime":878.714,"endTime":882.525,"body":"Security Agency, NSA, and the"},{"startTime":878.714,"endTime":882.525,"body":"Secretary of Homeland Security."},{"startTime":883.824,"endTime":884.931,"body":"Is that still known?"},{"startTime":885.348,"endTime":886.566,"body":"Do we have an acting secretary?"},{"startTime":886.951,"endTime":888.779,"body":"David - We— I don't remember who"},{"startTime":886.951,"endTime":888.779,"body":"it is, but it's not known"},{"startTime":888.779,"endTime":889.036,"body":"anymore."},{"startTime":889.132,"endTime":889.87,"body":"Deirdre - I think we need—."},{"startTime":889.934,"endTime":892.523,"body":"David - I think it's an acting"},{"startTime":889.934,"endTime":892.523,"body":"secretary at the moment, but"},{"startTime":892.523,"endTime":893.639,"body":"they have to be approved."},{"startTime":894.168,"endTime":894.248,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":894.585,"endTime":894.938,"body":"Deirdre - Oh gosh."},{"startTime":895.611,"endTime":898.548,"body":"Uh, through the Director of the"},{"startTime":895.611,"endTime":898.548,"body":"Cybersecurity Infrastructure"},{"startTime":898.548,"endTime":901.236,"body":"Security Agency, CISA, and the"},{"startTime":898.548,"endTime":901.236,"body":"Department of Redundancy"},{"startTime":901.236,"endTime":901.785,"body":"Department."},{"startTime":902.426,"endTime":905.225,"body":"Shall provide agencies on"},{"startTime":902.426,"endTime":905.225,"body":"ongoing basis with comprehensive"},{"startTime":905.225,"endTime":907.926,"body":"technical guidance on PQC"},{"startTime":905.225,"endTime":907.926,"body":"implementation, including best"},{"startTime":907.926,"endTime":910.727,"body":"practices, implementation, and"},{"startTime":907.926,"endTime":910.727,"body":"risk management strategies."},{"startTime":911.015,"endTime":911.367,"body":"David - Cool."},{"startTime":911.72,"endTime":915.357,"body":"Just what we needed, more"},{"startTime":911.72,"endTime":915.357,"body":"guidance from CISA."},{"startTime":915.998,"endTime":918.802,"body":"Deirdre - Section 4,"},{"startTime":915.998,"endTime":918.802,"body":"Accelerating the PQC Transition."},{"startTime":918.867,"endTime":922.784,"body":"Within 30 days of the date of"},{"startTime":918.867,"endTime":922.784,"body":"this order, which is yesterday,"},{"startTime":922.784,"endTime":926.897,"body":"uh, June 22nd, each agency head"},{"startTime":922.784,"endTime":926.897,"body":"shall identify its PQC migration"},{"startTime":926.897,"endTime":930.488,"body":"lead and provide the name and"},{"startTime":926.897,"endTime":930.488,"body":"contact details of the PQC"},{"startTime":930.488,"endTime":934.34,"body":"migration lead to the Director"},{"startTime":930.488,"endTime":934.34,"body":"of OMB and the National Kyber"},{"startTime":934.34,"endTime":935.91,"body":"Director within 90 days."},{"startTime":936.183,"endTime":936.408,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":936.825,"endTime":937.001,"body":"David - Yeah."},{"startTime":937.082,"endTime":941.229,"body":"So this is like fairly standard"},{"startTime":937.082,"endTime":941.229,"body":"stuff for like how a government,"},{"startTime":941.229,"endTime":944.784,"body":"like the executive branch, tells"},{"startTime":941.229,"endTime":944.784,"body":"agencies to do things."},{"startTime":944.832,"endTime":947.725,"body":"There's like a similar, um,"},{"startTime":944.832,"endTime":947.725,"body":"guidance around like doing"},{"startTime":947.725,"endTime":950.618,"body":"inventory a while ago that's"},{"startTime":947.725,"endTime":950.618,"body":"like, yes, define a point"},{"startTime":950.618,"endTime":953.838,"body":"person, and then that person has"},{"startTime":950.618,"endTime":953.838,"body":"to submit a report to these"},{"startTime":953.838,"endTime":955.969,"body":"other people that contains these"},{"startTime":953.838,"endTime":955.969,"body":"things."},{"startTime":956.482,"endTime":957.22,"body":"Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":957.589,"endTime":960.203,"body":"And then you need to do this"},{"startTime":957.589,"endTime":960.203,"body":"other thing by this other time."},{"startTime":960.251,"endTime":963.334,"body":"And then that all goes through"},{"startTime":960.251,"endTime":963.334,"body":"the point person back to"},{"startTime":963.334,"endTime":966.36,"body":"whoever, as deemed by the"},{"startTime":963.334,"endTime":966.36,"body":"authority stated at the top,"},{"startTime":966.36,"endTime":969.616,"body":"which in this case is like NSA"},{"startTime":966.36,"endTime":969.616,"body":"plus Secretary of Commerce."},{"startTime":970.017,"endTime":970.194,"body":"Deirdre - Yep."},{"startTime":970.594,"endTime":974.053,"body":"And we explored a lot of that"},{"startTime":970.594,"endTime":974.053,"body":"when we talked about the, the"},{"startTime":974.053,"endTime":977.572,"body":"big Kyber EO that came down just"},{"startTime":974.053,"endTime":977.572,"body":"before the end of the Biden"},{"startTime":977.572,"endTime":978.468,"body":"administration."},{"startTime":978.532,"endTime":979.976,"body":"And it's like a lot of similar"},{"startTime":978.532,"endTime":979.976,"body":"stuff."},{"startTime":980.938,"endTime":985.633,"body":"David - Um, I think the big"},{"startTime":980.938,"endTime":985.633,"body":"takeaway in this section is that"},{"startTime":985.633,"endTime":990.169,"body":"like, we've included the HVAs,"},{"startTime":985.633,"endTime":990.169,"body":"the high impact systems and"},{"startTime":990.169,"endTime":992.239,"body":"national security systems."},{"startTime":993.795,"endTime":998.24,"body":"And given this like, timeline"},{"startTime":993.795,"endTime":998.24,"body":"for both key establishment at"},{"startTime":998.24,"endTime":1002.992,"body":"the end of 2030 and then digital"},{"startTime":998.24,"endTime":1002.992,"body":"signatures by the end of 2031,"},{"startTime":1002.992,"endTime":1007.667,"body":"which, you know, very nice that"},{"startTime":1002.992,"endTime":1007.667,"body":"these have actually been split"},{"startTime":1007.667,"endTime":1011.882,"body":"out because it's much, much,"},{"startTime":1007.667,"endTime":1011.882,"body":"much, much easier to do key"},{"startTime":1011.882,"endTime":1016.1,"body":"establishment that it is to do"},{"startTime":1011.882,"endTime":1016.1,"body":"signatures in most cases."},{"startTime":1016.196,"endTime":1019.401,"body":"And you can actually just like,"},{"startTime":1016.196,"endTime":1019.401,"body":"doing key establishment is"},{"startTime":1019.401,"endTime":1021.314,"body":"basically just update your"},{"startTime":1019.401,"endTime":1021.314,"body":"OpenSSL."},{"startTime":1021.603,"endTime":1022.149,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1022.229,"endTime":1022.678,"body":"At this point."},{"startTime":1023.256,"endTime":1027.4,"body":"Deirdre - And, or, you know,"},{"startTime":1023.256,"endTime":1027.4,"body":"your Go, you like, you can"},{"startTime":1027.4,"endTime":1032.158,"body":"upgrade Go, you can upgrade, uh,"},{"startTime":1027.4,"endTime":1032.158,"body":"I think it's in Java 25 or JDK"},{"startTime":1032.158,"endTime":1034.616,"body":"25, um, that you get it as well."},{"startTime":1034.825,"endTime":1039.37,"body":"Like a lot of the places where"},{"startTime":1034.825,"endTime":1039.37,"body":"you just update, uh, and you are"},{"startTime":1039.37,"endTime":1043.695,"body":"serving TLS, for example, Um,"},{"startTime":1039.37,"endTime":1043.695,"body":"you will get your post-quantum"},{"startTime":1043.695,"endTime":1047.729,"body":"FIPS interoperable, uh, key"},{"startTime":1043.695,"endTime":1047.729,"body":"agreement and it just works."},{"startTime":1048.692,"endTime":1053.155,"body":"Uh, it's not that easy if you're"},{"startTime":1048.692,"endTime":1053.155,"body":"using, uh, signatures and you"},{"startTime":1053.155,"endTime":1057.691,"body":"need to share, uh, a public key"},{"startTime":1053.155,"endTime":1057.691,"body":"or rotate keys or certs or have"},{"startTime":1057.691,"endTime":1061.277,"body":"any sorts of roots of trust or"},{"startTime":1057.691,"endTime":1061.277,"body":"anything like that."},{"startTime":1061.453,"endTime":1061.63,"body":"David - Yeah."},{"startTime":1062.031,"endTime":1065.798,"body":"Fundamentally, like independent"},{"startTime":1062.031,"endTime":1065.798,"body":"of any of the like struggles"},{"startTime":1065.798,"endTime":1069.629,"body":"with size that we've discussed"},{"startTime":1065.798,"endTime":1069.629,"body":"with PQC in the past, um, like"},{"startTime":1069.629,"endTime":1073.396,"body":"you are going to have a new"},{"startTime":1069.629,"endTime":1073.396,"body":"trust hier— like a PKI hierarchy"},{"startTime":1073.396,"endTime":1073.973,"body":"for PQCE."},{"startTime":1074.551,"endTime":1074.68,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":1074.776,"endTime":1077.648,"body":"David - Which means that like,"},{"startTime":1074.776,"endTime":1077.648,"body":"in some way you're going to have"},{"startTime":1077.648,"endTime":1080.057,"body":"to get a certificate from like"},{"startTime":1077.648,"endTime":1080.057,"body":"something vaguely new."},{"startTime":1080.554,"endTime":1083.683,"body":"And like, even if that"},{"startTime":1080.554,"endTime":1083.683,"body":"certificate is done in such a"},{"startTime":1083.683,"endTime":1087.241,"body":"way that it looks like this"},{"startTime":1083.683,"endTime":1087.241,"body":"looks like the old stuff to old"},{"startTime":1087.241,"endTime":1090.799,"body":"things, like at some point your"},{"startTime":1087.241,"endTime":1090.799,"body":"ACME client's gonna have to"},{"startTime":1090.799,"endTime":1094.234,"body":"either be pointed at a new"},{"startTime":1090.799,"endTime":1094.234,"body":"endpoint or have that endpoint"},{"startTime":1094.234,"endTime":1097.976,"body":"just like do some sort of, uh,"},{"startTime":1094.234,"endTime":1097.976,"body":"you know, Indiana Jonesing to a"},{"startTime":1097.976,"endTime":1101.596,"body":"new hierarchy when you're not"},{"startTime":1097.976,"endTime":1101.596,"body":"looking., um, uh, and actually"},{"startTime":1101.596,"endTime":1103.44,"body":"have like certificates issued."},{"startTime":1103.44,"endTime":1103.98,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":1103.98,"endTime":1107.186,"body":"David - Which is just"},{"startTime":1103.98,"endTime":1107.186,"body":"fundamentally like more work,"},{"startTime":1107.186,"endTime":1111.034,"body":"hopefully marginally more work,"},{"startTime":1107.186,"endTime":1111.034,"body":"and hopefully mostly handled,"},{"startTime":1111.034,"endTime":1114.817,"body":"um, automatically still, but"},{"startTime":1111.034,"endTime":1114.817,"body":"like not as straightforward as,"},{"startTime":1114.817,"endTime":1118.536,"body":"oh, I've just updated my, my"},{"startTime":1114.817,"endTime":1118.536,"body":"SSL/TLS implementation and now"},{"startTime":1118.536,"endTime":1122.191,"body":"there's a new cipher suite"},{"startTime":1118.536,"endTime":1122.191,"body":"available and you just use that"},{"startTime":1122.191,"endTime":1123.22,"body":"with new things."},{"startTime":1123.22,"endTime":1124.44,"body":"Deirdre - And now—."},{"startTime":1124.44,"endTime":1126.608,"body":"David - Because it involves a"},{"startTime":1124.44,"endTime":1126.608,"body":"long-lived credential instead of"},{"startTime":1126.608,"endTime":1127.64,"body":"just an ephemeral credential."},{"startTime":1128.152,"endTime":1128.312,"body":"Deirdre - Yep."},{"startTime":1128.777,"endTime":1131.673,"body":"And not even like long-lived,"},{"startTime":1128.777,"endTime":1131.673,"body":"but just like someone needs to"},{"startTime":1131.673,"endTime":1132.705,"body":"trust it in some way."},{"startTime":1132.801,"endTime":1135.862,"body":"It needs to be sort of like,"},{"startTime":1132.801,"endTime":1135.862,"body":"have some sort of like, where"},{"startTime":1135.862,"endTime":1136.937,"body":"does this come from?"},{"startTime":1137.113,"endTime":1138.428,"body":"Did like, is this real?"},{"startTime":1138.492,"endTime":1140.848,"body":"Is this like not expired and"},{"startTime":1138.492,"endTime":1140.848,"body":"things like that?"},{"startTime":1141.602,"endTime":1146.642,"body":"Um, and we, and we haven't even"},{"startTime":1141.602,"endTime":1146.642,"body":"gotten an update to, uh, SSH or"},{"startTime":1146.642,"endTime":1151.275,"body":"OpenSSH for, uh, keys, the"},{"startTime":1146.642,"endTime":1151.275,"body":"actual keys that do the signing"},{"startTime":1151.275,"endTime":1151.926,"body":"for you."},{"startTime":1152.038,"endTime":1155.669,"body":"We have gotten an update, uh,"},{"startTime":1152.038,"endTime":1155.669,"body":"for the key agreement of your"},{"startTime":1155.669,"endTime":1157.11,"body":"SSH session in OpenSSH."},{"startTime":1157.174,"endTime":1158.587,"body":"So that's cool."},{"startTime":1159.02,"endTime":1162.958,"body":"But we still aren't sure what"},{"startTime":1159.02,"endTime":1162.958,"body":"SSH, uh, pub keys, PQ pub keys"},{"startTime":1162.958,"endTime":1164.56,"body":"are gonna look like yet."},{"startTime":1164.785,"endTime":1166.792,"body":"Um, there's still discussion"},{"startTime":1164.785,"endTime":1166.792,"body":"going on about that."},{"startTime":1167.514,"endTime":1168.349,"body":"Um, yay."},{"startTime":1169.602,"endTime":1173.728,"body":"Um, but one, one of the huge"},{"startTime":1169.602,"endTime":1173.728,"body":"things is like, okay, 2030 for"},{"startTime":1173.728,"endTime":1177.925,"body":"key agreement, like that's kind"},{"startTime":1173.728,"endTime":1177.925,"body":"of on par, but the fact that"},{"startTime":1177.925,"endTime":1182.194,"body":"they're moving up signatures to"},{"startTime":1177.925,"endTime":1182.194,"body":"be done by the end of 2031 is"},{"startTime":1182.194,"endTime":1186.463,"body":"pretty big because we, that is a"},{"startTime":1182.194,"endTime":1186.463,"body":"short runway for things that"},{"startTime":1186.463,"endTime":1189.524,"body":"don't have solved solutions"},{"startTime":1186.463,"endTime":1189.524,"body":"ready to go yet."},{"startTime":1190.133,"endTime":1191.799,"body":"And it's like aggressive."},{"startTime":1191.927,"endTime":1194.251,"body":"So that, that was a big thing"},{"startTime":1191.927,"endTime":1194.251,"body":"that caught my eye."},{"startTime":1195.02,"endTime":1195.1,"body":"David - Yeah."},{"startTime":1195.293,"endTime":1199.096,"body":"I mean, Chrome's expecting to be"},{"startTime":1195.293,"endTime":1199.096,"body":"able to accept, um,"},{"startTime":1199.096,"endTime":1203.049,"body":"post-quantum, uh, Merkle tree"},{"startTime":1199.096,"endTime":1203.049,"body":"certificate CAs in 2027."},{"startTime":1204.155,"endTime":1204.347,"body":"Um, cool."},{"startTime":1205.597,"endTime":1208.803,"body":"Uh, but the first round of those"},{"startTime":1205.597,"endTime":1208.803,"body":"will not have key strengths"},{"startTime":1208.803,"endTime":1209.891,"body":"suitable for CNSA 2."},{"startTime":1210.036,"endTime":1211.878,"body":"Oh, you're right."},{"startTime":1212.199,"endTime":1214.879,"body":"Um, but it will be, yeah,"},{"startTime":1212.199,"endTime":1214.879,"body":"they'll get there eventually,"},{"startTime":1214.879,"endTime":1216.269,"body":"but they'll at least be PQC."},{"startTime":1216.349,"endTime":1218.529,"body":"And this actually doesn't say"},{"startTime":1216.349,"endTime":1218.529,"body":"anything about key strength."},{"startTime":1218.993,"endTime":1219.41,"body":"Deirdre - Correct."},{"startTime":1219.795,"endTime":1222.833,"body":"I think it's just, it needs to"},{"startTime":1219.795,"endTime":1222.833,"body":"be FIPS, which means if it"},{"startTime":1222.833,"endTime":1224.57,"body":"supports ML-DSA 44, you're good."},{"startTime":1224.826,"endTime":1228.601,"body":"And I think a lot of people will"},{"startTime":1224.826,"endTime":1228.601,"body":"be perfectly well suited to use"},{"startTime":1228.601,"endTime":1229.201,"body":"ML-DSA 44."},{"startTime":1230.034,"endTime":1233.773,"body":"David - Um, Yeah, it's really"},{"startTime":1230.034,"endTime":1233.773,"body":"complicated to decide what's,"},{"startTime":1233.773,"endTime":1236.03,"body":"um, like a national security"},{"startTime":1233.773,"endTime":1236.03,"body":"system."},{"startTime":1236.126,"endTime":1239.845,"body":"If you talk to most people from"},{"startTime":1236.126,"endTime":1239.845,"body":"like NSA, they'll be like, oh,"},{"startTime":1239.845,"endTime":1243.381,"body":"you know, that's like the DOD"},{"startTime":1239.845,"endTime":1243.381,"body":"servers running in like a DOD"},{"startTime":1243.381,"endTime":1246.674,"body":"data center or whatever, like on"},{"startTime":1243.381,"endTime":1246.674,"body":"a private DOD network."},{"startTime":1247.428,"endTime":1249.447,"body":"And it's like, yes, that's"},{"startTime":1247.428,"endTime":1249.447,"body":"definitely true."},{"startTime":1250.313,"endTime":1254.77,"body":"Um, but like what, like more and"},{"startTime":1250.313,"endTime":1254.77,"body":"more of the government uses like"},{"startTime":1254.77,"endTime":1256.373,"body":"public clouds and SaaS."},{"startTime":1256.902,"endTime":1260.156,"body":"And then you have the question"},{"startTime":1256.902,"endTime":1260.156,"body":"of like, is your cloud console"},{"startTime":1260.156,"endTime":1262.164,"body":"considered a national security"},{"startTime":1260.156,"endTime":1262.164,"body":"system?"},{"startTime":1262.661,"endTime":1262.998,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":1263.159,"endTime":1266.797,"body":"David - You are deploying using"},{"startTime":1263.159,"endTime":1266.797,"body":"that cloud console to deploy,"},{"startTime":1266.797,"endTime":1270.073,"body":"uh, you know, a national"},{"startTime":1266.797,"endTime":1270.073,"body":"security system on some cloud."},{"startTime":1270.121,"endTime":1270.394,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":1270.683,"endTime":1274.484,"body":"David - Um, and then like now"},{"startTime":1270.683,"endTime":1274.484,"body":"you have like a whole host of"},{"startTime":1274.484,"endTime":1278.285,"body":"basically publicly accessible"},{"startTime":1274.484,"endTime":1278.285,"body":"websites that become in scope"},{"startTime":1278.285,"endTime":1282.349,"body":"for rules that were written to"},{"startTime":1278.285,"endTime":1282.349,"body":"be for like, uh, basically a DoD"},{"startTime":1282.349,"endTime":1282.875,"body":"network."},{"startTime":1283.682,"endTime":1285.979,"body":"Which is where all of this gets"},{"startTime":1283.682,"endTime":1285.979,"body":"complicated."},{"startTime":1286.06,"endTime":1291.249,"body":"Deirdre - It's like, do I really"},{"startTime":1286.06,"endTime":1291.249,"body":"need— does like AWS have to"},{"startTime":1291.249,"endTime":1296.614,"body":"serve me, uh, an mldsA87 cert"},{"startTime":1291.249,"endTime":1296.614,"body":"and everything in that chain and"},{"startTime":1296.614,"endTime":1301.979,"body":"an MLKEM1024, uh, key exchange"},{"startTime":1296.614,"endTime":1301.979,"body":"just to like, you know, load up"},{"startTime":1301.979,"endTime":1303.037,"body":"the console?"},{"startTime":1303.793,"endTime":1306.593,"body":"Like, I don't— maybe, I don't"},{"startTime":1303.793,"endTime":1306.593,"body":"know, I don't work for them."},{"startTime":1308.553,"endTime":1311.957,"body":"David - MLKEM1024 is like not"},{"startTime":1308.553,"endTime":1311.957,"body":"that bad in the grand scheme of"},{"startTime":1311.957,"endTime":1315.475,"body":"things compared to— whereas like"},{"startTime":1311.957,"endTime":1315.475,"body":"mldsA87 is It's just like, you"},{"startTime":1315.475,"endTime":1317.859,"body":"really gonna send me 35"},{"startTime":1315.475,"endTime":1317.859,"body":"kilobytes of certs?"},{"startTime":1318.003,"endTime":1318.597,"body":"Like, come on."},{"startTime":1318.726,"endTime":1318.806,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":1319.304,"endTime":1323.395,"body":"Like, when you're sort of"},{"startTime":1319.304,"endTime":1323.395,"body":"thinking about like, well, yes,"},{"startTime":1323.395,"endTime":1327.559,"body":"if you are like doing X-keystore"},{"startTime":1323.395,"endTime":1327.559,"body":"crap, like the stuff that"},{"startTime":1327.559,"endTime":1329.824,"body":"Snowden leaked, you know, sure."},{"startTime":1329.952,"endTime":1334.426,"body":"I give me the fat, you know,"},{"startTime":1329.952,"endTime":1334.426,"body":"NIST Level 5 certs and like,"},{"startTime":1334.426,"endTime":1336.344,"body":"sure, gimme ML-KEM 1024."},{"startTime":1336.553,"endTime":1340.943,"body":"But when you're just like, well,"},{"startTime":1336.553,"endTime":1340.943,"body":"you know, if you're trying to"},{"startTime":1340.943,"endTime":1345.045,"body":"twiddle something in the like,"},{"startTime":1340.943,"endTime":1345.045,"body":"defense cloud that is being"},{"startTime":1345.045,"endTime":1349.077,"body":"served by, you know, AWS, like,"},{"startTime":1345.045,"endTime":1349.077,"body":"do you need it there too?"},{"startTime":1349.157,"endTime":1350.859,"body":"And like, it, the answer might"},{"startTime":1349.157,"endTime":1350.859,"body":"be yes."},{"startTime":1350.923,"endTime":1352.143,"body":"And then you're just like, oh,"},{"startTime":1350.923,"endTime":1352.143,"body":"goddammit."},{"startTime":1352.191,"endTime":1355.976,"body":"Like, to just serve me a"},{"startTime":1352.191,"endTime":1355.976,"body":"website, a regular website, um,"},{"startTime":1355.976,"endTime":1359.142,"body":"you need to support this stuff"},{"startTime":1355.976,"endTime":1359.142,"body":"is like, oh boy."},{"startTime":1359.431,"endTime":1359.672,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1359.929,"endTime":1363.022,"body":"David - The struggle is if you"},{"startTime":1359.929,"endTime":1363.022,"body":"can't split your domain, like"},{"startTime":1363.022,"endTime":1365.958,"body":"split your users by domain,"},{"startTime":1363.022,"endTime":1365.958,"body":"because it's easy to make one"},{"startTime":1365.958,"endTime":1368.894,"body":"domain that only uses the high"},{"startTime":1365.958,"endTime":1368.894,"body":"strength stuff and another"},{"startTime":1368.894,"endTime":1371.359,"body":"domain that uses like the normal"},{"startTime":1368.894,"endTime":1371.359,"body":"strength stuff."},{"startTime":1371.857,"endTime":1374.702,"body":"To be clear, the normal strength"},{"startTime":1371.857,"endTime":1374.702,"body":"stuff is like strong enough to"},{"startTime":1374.702,"endTime":1377.364,"body":"survive like a Dyson sphere"},{"startTime":1374.702,"endTime":1377.364,"body":"built around the sun being used"},{"startTime":1377.364,"endTime":1378.421,"body":"to like brute force it."},{"startTime":1378.774,"endTime":1382.837,"body":"But, um, like if you say you're"},{"startTime":1378.774,"endTime":1382.837,"body":"on a search engine, if that"},{"startTime":1382.837,"endTime":1387.041,"body":"somehow becomes in scope for a"},{"startTime":1382.837,"endTime":1387.041,"body":"national security system, like"},{"startTime":1387.041,"endTime":1391.174,"body":"you probably don't actually want"},{"startTime":1387.041,"endTime":1391.174,"body":"to pay, um, the cost of the"},{"startTime":1391.174,"endTime":1394.469,"body":"cryptography for, you know, a"},{"startTime":1391.174,"endTime":1394.469,"body":"few billion users."},{"startTime":1394.966,"endTime":1395.223,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":1396.25,"endTime":1396.892,"body":"Um, all right."},{"startTime":1396.972,"endTime":1401.113,"body":"Well, the last rest of the"},{"startTime":1396.972,"endTime":1401.113,"body":"section, advancing to Section 6."},{"startTime":1401.29,"endTime":1404.478,"body":"David - Procurement, um, because"},{"startTime":1401.29,"endTime":1404.478,"body":"I think everything else is more"},{"startTime":1404.478,"endTime":1407.059,"body":"just like reporting details on"},{"startTime":1404.478,"endTime":1407.059,"body":"timing and reporting."},{"startTime":1407.555,"endTime":1409.863,"body":"Yeah, Section 6 procurement is"},{"startTime":1407.555,"endTime":1409.863,"body":"where it gets exciting."},{"startTime":1410.296,"endTime":1414.206,"body":"Deirdre - Hold on, hold on, at"},{"startTime":1410.296,"endTime":1414.206,"body":"the end of Section 5, uh, uh,"},{"startTime":1414.206,"endTime":1417.519,"body":"um, Homeland Security shall"},{"startTime":1414.206,"endTime":1417.519,"body":"release public guidance"},{"startTime":1417.519,"endTime":1421.694,"body":"regarding cryptographic bill of"},{"startTime":1417.519,"endTime":1421.694,"body":"materials and they should enable"},{"startTime":1421.694,"endTime":1425.272,"body":"the automated assessment of"},{"startTime":1421.694,"endTime":1425.272,"body":"assets utilized by hardware"},{"startTime":1425.272,"endTime":1426.401,"body":"software element."},{"startTime":1426.465,"endTime":1431.778,"body":"I'm like Great, we're just gonna"},{"startTime":1426.465,"endTime":1431.778,"body":"keep doing that."},{"startTime":1431.858,"endTime":1433.881,"body":"We're gonna keep doing C-bombs."},{"startTime":1434.17,"endTime":1438.609,"body":"Okay, sure, we're moving the"},{"startTime":1434.17,"endTime":1438.609,"body":"timelines up super aggressively,"},{"startTime":1438.609,"endTime":1441.939,"body":"but first we gotta get that bill"},{"startTime":1438.609,"endTime":1441.939,"body":"of materials."},{"startTime":1442.356,"endTime":1446.0,"body":"Oh, okay, sure, maybe you gotta"},{"startTime":1442.356,"endTime":1446.0,"body":"do that."},{"startTime":1446.049,"endTime":1449.286,"body":"David - I don't remember this"},{"startTime":1446.049,"endTime":1449.286,"body":"for sure, but I feel like some"},{"startTime":1449.286,"endTime":1452.523,"body":"of the like S-bomb stuff got"},{"startTime":1449.286,"endTime":1452.523,"body":"revoked by an earlier Trump EO,"},{"startTime":1452.523,"endTime":1453.128,"body":"but maybe—."},{"startTime":1453.369,"endTime":1456.657,"body":"Deirdre - Oh, that— yeah, that"},{"startTime":1453.369,"endTime":1456.657,"body":"might have been in the Kyber EO,"},{"startTime":1456.657,"endTime":1459.786,"body":"and he wrote like a few months"},{"startTime":1456.657,"endTime":1459.786,"body":"after he came into office, he"},{"startTime":1459.786,"endTime":1463.074,"body":"basically had a short one that"},{"startTime":1459.786,"endTime":1463.074,"body":"was like, revoke all that except"},{"startTime":1463.074,"endTime":1464.72,"body":"for this, this, this, and this."},{"startTime":1464.848,"endTime":1466.053,"body":"It might— that might have been"},{"startTime":1464.848,"endTime":1466.053,"body":"it."},{"startTime":1467.08,"endTime":1469.248,"body":"But, uh, uh, 6."},{"startTime":1469.922,"endTime":1473.027,"body":"David - So moving on to Section"},{"startTime":1469.922,"endTime":1473.027,"body":"6, procurement, Section B -"},{"startTime":1473.027,"endTime":1476.132,"body":"Within 180 days of the date of"},{"startTime":1473.027,"endTime":1476.132,"body":"this order, the Secretary of"},{"startTime":1476.132,"endTime":1479.29,"body":"Commerce, through the Director"},{"startTime":1476.132,"endTime":1479.29,"body":"of NIST, shall, to the extent"},{"startTime":1479.29,"endTime":1482.341,"body":"appropriate and consistent with"},{"startTime":1479.29,"endTime":1482.341,"body":"applicable law, revise the"},{"startTime":1482.341,"endTime":1485.125,"body":"processes used by the"},{"startTime":1482.341,"endTime":1485.125,"body":"Cryptographic Module Validation"},{"startTime":1485.125,"endTime":1487.748,"body":"Program to accelerate"},{"startTime":1485.125,"endTime":1487.748,"body":"validations of cryptographic"},{"startTime":1487.748,"endTime":1488.179,"body":"modules."},{"startTime":1489.078,"endTime":1492.354,"body":"Um, now what does it mean to"},{"startTime":1489.078,"endTime":1492.354,"body":"revise these processes?"},{"startTime":1492.611,"endTime":1493.093,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1493.815,"endTime":1496.906,"body":"Um, I also, like, I'm gonna be"},{"startTime":1493.815,"endTime":1496.906,"body":"pessimistic about this cuz I"},{"startTime":1496.906,"endTime":1499.146,"body":"don't really know how you fix"},{"startTime":1496.906,"endTime":1499.146,"body":"these things."},{"startTime":1499.194,"endTime":1501.451,"body":"I think you just get rid of,"},{"startTime":1499.194,"endTime":1501.451,"body":"like, in my opinion, we"},{"startTime":1501.451,"endTime":1502.646,"body":"shouldn't have CMVP at all."},{"startTime":1503.064,"endTime":1504.862,"body":"We should just have CAVP, if"},{"startTime":1503.064,"endTime":1504.862,"body":"that."},{"startTime":1506.034,"endTime":1508.23,"body":"Really, we should just have the"},{"startTime":1506.034,"endTime":1508.23,"body":"FIPS list of algorithms and say"},{"startTime":1508.23,"endTime":1509.824,"body":"like, these are the ones that"},{"startTime":1508.23,"endTime":1509.824,"body":"you have to use."},{"startTime":1510.514,"endTime":1514.122,"body":"And like, you don't, you know,"},{"startTime":1510.514,"endTime":1514.122,"body":"we, we expect that like software"},{"startTime":1514.122,"endTime":1517.206,"body":"works correctly and like that's"},{"startTime":1514.122,"endTime":1517.206,"body":"part of, you know, the"},{"startTime":1517.206,"endTime":1520.583,"body":"purchasing agreement is that"},{"startTime":1517.206,"endTime":1520.583,"body":"like software works correctly."},{"startTime":1520.792,"endTime":1520.872,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1520.952,"endTime":1521.29,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1521.466,"endTime":1522.494,"body":"If it doesn't, it gets fixed."},{"startTime":1523.04,"endTime":1525.794,"body":"This is kind of how all software"},{"startTime":1523.04,"endTime":1525.794,"body":"works, but somehow it becomes"},{"startTime":1525.794,"endTime":1528.186,"body":"like just the cryptographic"},{"startTime":1525.794,"endTime":1528.186,"body":"algorithm part and not the"},{"startTime":1528.186,"endTime":1528.774,"body":"network part."},{"startTime":1528.838,"endTime":1530.894,"body":"It's like, oh, well we have to"},{"startTime":1528.838,"endTime":1530.894,"body":"do all this additional testing."},{"startTime":1531.103,"endTime":1533.211,"body":"It's like, yeah, you should, you"},{"startTime":1531.103,"endTime":1533.211,"body":"know, make sure that you're"},{"startTime":1533.211,"endTime":1535.212,"body":"procuring software that works"},{"startTime":1533.211,"endTime":1535.212,"body":"for your use case and works"},{"startTime":1535.212,"endTime":1535.391,"body":"well."},{"startTime":1535.889,"endTime":1539.568,"body":"But like, do we really need this"},{"startTime":1535.889,"endTime":1539.568,"body":"like additional testing versus"},{"startTime":1539.568,"endTime":1543.069,"body":"saying, you know, Yes, this,"},{"startTime":1539.568,"endTime":1543.069,"body":"this software complies with the"},{"startTime":1543.069,"endTime":1546.688,"body":"guidelines in the sense of it"},{"startTime":1543.069,"endTime":1546.688,"body":"uses the algorithms that the NSA"},{"startTime":1546.688,"endTime":1549.419,"body":"wants to use for the national"},{"startTime":1546.688,"endTime":1549.419,"body":"security systems."},{"startTime":1549.869,"endTime":1552.985,"body":"It like meets the product"},{"startTime":1549.869,"endTime":1552.985,"body":"requirements that are required"},{"startTime":1552.985,"endTime":1554.515,"body":"to do the government thing."},{"startTime":1555.495,"endTime":1555.929,"body":"So I don't know."},{"startTime":1555.994,"endTime":1558.148,"body":"I suspect that we will not get"},{"startTime":1555.994,"endTime":1558.148,"body":"rid of CMVP."},{"startTime":1558.87,"endTime":1561.693,"body":"And as a result, I don't really"},{"startTime":1558.87,"endTime":1561.693,"body":"know like how to improve CMVP"},{"startTime":1561.693,"endTime":1562.164,"body":"very well."},{"startTime":1562.742,"endTime":1562.903,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1563.047,"endTime":1566.035,"body":"I haven't specifically taken"},{"startTime":1563.047,"endTime":1566.035,"body":"something through CMVP."},{"startTime":1566.18,"endTime":1568.346,"body":"I've, you know, worked with"},{"startTime":1566.18,"endTime":1568.346,"body":"teams that I've had to make"},{"startTime":1568.346,"endTime":1570.592,"body":"changes so that it can go"},{"startTime":1568.346,"endTime":1570.592,"body":"through CMVP, but I've not been"},{"startTime":1570.592,"endTime":1572.838,"body":"the point person to like, take"},{"startTime":1570.592,"endTime":1572.838,"body":"something to a lab, get it"},{"startTime":1572.838,"endTime":1574.364,"body":"tested, submit that to NIST, and"},{"startTime":1572.838,"endTime":1574.364,"body":"so on."},{"startTime":1574.797,"endTime":1578.416,"body":"Deirdre - I bet, I bet we know"},{"startTime":1574.797,"endTime":1578.416,"body":"some people who do have"},{"startTime":1578.416,"endTime":1582.582,"body":"opinions, but I am quite— the"},{"startTime":1578.416,"endTime":1582.582,"body":"way this, this is written, I'm a"},{"startTime":1582.582,"endTime":1586.679,"body":"little bit worried now because"},{"startTime":1582.582,"endTime":1586.679,"body":"it's like within 180 days, the"},{"startTime":1586.679,"endTime":1590.572,"body":"revise the processes, like you"},{"startTime":1586.679,"endTime":1590.572,"body":"have 6 months to revise the"},{"startTime":1590.572,"endTime":1594.533,"body":"processes, not come up with a"},{"startTime":1590.572,"endTime":1594.533,"body":"plan, give to go up the chain"},{"startTime":1594.533,"endTime":1597.677,"body":"about how you're going to revise"},{"startTime":1594.533,"endTime":1597.677,"body":"the processes."},{"startTime":1597.789,"endTime":1599.119,"body":"Like, no, you're going to change"},{"startTime":1597.789,"endTime":1599.119,"body":"them."},{"startTime":1599.728,"endTime":1603.299,"body":"David - So I'm, I mean, I think"},{"startTime":1599.728,"endTime":1603.299,"body":"6 months is more than enough"},{"startTime":1603.299,"endTime":1606.931,"body":"time to change the processes,"},{"startTime":1603.299,"endTime":1606.931,"body":"but like, you know, government,"},{"startTime":1606.931,"endTime":1610.2,"body":"government, it's, it's also"},{"startTime":1606.931,"endTime":1610.2,"body":"tough to do because like in"},{"startTime":1610.2,"endTime":1613.771,"body":"practice, like at least for,"},{"startTime":1610.2,"endTime":1613.771,"body":"for, uh, like CNSA too, a bunch"},{"startTime":1613.771,"endTime":1617.161,"body":"of this also goes through NIAP"},{"startTime":1613.771,"endTime":1617.161,"body":"where then like NIAP has a"},{"startTime":1617.161,"endTime":1620.914,"body":"protection profile that is like"},{"startTime":1617.161,"endTime":1620.914,"body":"in theory above and beyond just"},{"startTime":1620.914,"endTime":1621.462,"body":"the CMVP."},{"startTime":1621.831,"endTime":1623.966,"body":"That's like, oh, you know, you"},{"startTime":1621.831,"endTime":1623.966,"body":"have this broader set of"},{"startTime":1623.966,"endTime":1626.061,"body":"requirements and NIAP is"},{"startTime":1623.966,"endTime":1626.061,"body":"supposed to check that all of"},{"startTime":1626.061,"endTime":1627.525,"body":"that complies with those"},{"startTime":1626.061,"endTime":1627.525,"body":"requirements."},{"startTime":1627.782,"endTime":1631.354,"body":"But in practice, like, NIAP just"},{"startTime":1627.782,"endTime":1631.354,"body":"writes requirements that are"},{"startTime":1631.354,"endTime":1634.986,"body":"impossible to comply with and,"},{"startTime":1631.354,"endTime":1634.986,"body":"like, make no sense, and, like,"},{"startTime":1634.986,"endTime":1638.618,"body":"combine requirements for clients"},{"startTime":1634.986,"endTime":1638.618,"body":"and servers and then say that"},{"startTime":1638.618,"endTime":1642.369,"body":"you have to follow all of them,"},{"startTime":1638.618,"endTime":1642.369,"body":"but in ways that just don't make"},{"startTime":1642.369,"endTime":1642.729,"body":"sense."},{"startTime":1643.901,"endTime":1647.046,"body":"And so getting any, like, NIAP"},{"startTime":1643.901,"endTime":1647.046,"body":"protection profile for a"},{"startTime":1647.046,"endTime":1650.25,"body":"product, which again is also"},{"startTime":1647.046,"endTime":1650.25,"body":"done through, like, a third"},{"startTime":1650.25,"endTime":1653.628,"body":"party, so you, like, take it to"},{"startTime":1650.25,"endTime":1653.628,"body":"a tester, like, Booze Allen"},{"startTime":1653.628,"endTime":1657.065,"body":"Hamilton, and then they like,"},{"startTime":1653.628,"endTime":1657.065,"body":"well, that's a thing, and send"},{"startTime":1657.065,"endTime":1657.708,"body":"it to NIAP."},{"startTime":1658.431,"endTime":1662.208,"body":"Um, and then just like, nope,"},{"startTime":1658.431,"endTime":1662.208,"body":"nobody, like the testers don't"},{"startTime":1662.208,"endTime":1663.681,"body":"understand the product."},{"startTime":1663.761,"endTime":1665.415,"body":"NIAP doesn't understand TLS."},{"startTime":1665.672,"endTime":1667.31,"body":"And then everybody's just trying"},{"startTime":1665.672,"endTime":1667.31,"body":"to get it through."},{"startTime":1667.679,"endTime":1670.162,"body":"But also like you're, it's just"},{"startTime":1667.679,"endTime":1670.162,"body":"a bunch of people like"},{"startTime":1670.162,"endTime":1672.598,"body":"bullshitting and lying each"},{"startTime":1670.162,"endTime":1672.598,"body":"other to each other until"},{"startTime":1672.598,"endTime":1673.957,"body":"eventually you get the stamp."},{"startTime":1674.022,"endTime":1676.253,"body":"And then what is used in"},{"startTime":1674.022,"endTime":1676.253,"body":"practice is not at all what was"},{"startTime":1676.253,"endTime":1678.727,"body":"tested because the requirements"},{"startTime":1676.253,"endTime":1678.727,"body":"were like literally impossible"},{"startTime":1678.727,"endTime":1679.336,"body":"to comply with."},{"startTime":1679.946,"endTime":1682.926,"body":"Even though like the"},{"startTime":1679.946,"endTime":1682.926,"body":"requirements from CNSA 2 are"},{"startTime":1682.926,"endTime":1684.789,"body":"actually very straightforward."},{"startTime":1686.2,"endTime":1686.585,"body":"Deirdre - Oh gosh."},{"startTime":1686.698,"endTime":1690.154,"body":"I keep forgetting about NIAM and"},{"startTime":1686.698,"endTime":1690.154,"body":"yeah, I don't, I've looked at it"},{"startTime":1690.154,"endTime":1692.423,"body":"once and I'm just sort of like,"},{"startTime":1690.154,"endTime":1692.423,"body":"okay, sure."},{"startTime":1692.791,"endTime":1692.936,"body":"David - Yeah."},{"startTime":1693.192,"endTime":1696.602,"body":"Like the NIAM protection"},{"startTime":1693.192,"endTime":1696.602,"body":"profiles don't like correctly"},{"startTime":1696.602,"endTime":1700.398,"body":"discern between like must offer"},{"startTime":1696.602,"endTime":1700.398,"body":"something and must negotiate"},{"startTime":1700.398,"endTime":1704.065,"body":"something when a client or a"},{"startTime":1700.398,"endTime":1704.065,"body":"server, so it'll be like, you"},{"startTime":1704.065,"endTime":1707.861,"body":"TLS client, like you must offer"},{"startTime":1704.065,"endTime":1707.861,"body":"You must use Extended Master"},{"startTime":1707.861,"endTime":1709.15,"body":"Secret with TLS 1.2."},{"startTime":1709.15,"endTime":1712.068,"body":"And it's like, well, if you're"},{"startTime":1709.15,"endTime":1712.068,"body":"like a web browser, like, you"},{"startTime":1712.068,"endTime":1715.184,"body":"know, what, what happens if like"},{"startTime":1712.068,"endTime":1715.184,"body":"the server, like we offer it in"},{"startTime":1715.184,"endTime":1717.41,"body":"Chrome, but like not every"},{"startTime":1715.184,"endTime":1717.41,"body":"server speaks that."},{"startTime":1717.41,"endTime":1720.05,"body":"I think most do, but like, are"},{"startTime":1717.41,"endTime":1720.05,"body":"we just supposed to reject it?"},{"startTime":1720.05,"endTime":1723.074,"body":"And then they're like, oh, well"},{"startTime":1720.05,"endTime":1723.074,"body":"you must use, you know, AES-256,"},{"startTime":1723.074,"endTime":1724.37,"body":"cuz that's what's in CNSA2."},{"startTime":1724.37,"endTime":1728.039,"body":"It's like, well, here's the"},{"startTime":1724.37,"endTime":1728.039,"body":"incantation you can put in to"},{"startTime":1728.039,"endTime":1730.53,"body":"make it so you get AES-256 with"},{"startTime":1728.039,"endTime":1730.53,"body":"Google."},{"startTime":1730.53,"endTime":1734.12,"body":"But like, if we just turn off"},{"startTime":1730.53,"endTime":1734.12,"body":"AES-256 in like Chrome, for"},{"startTime":1734.12,"endTime":1737.39,"body":"example, then you just can't"},{"startTime":1734.12,"endTime":1737.39,"body":"load most The internet."},{"startTime":1737.39,"endTime":1737.73,"body":"Deirdre - Yep."},{"startTime":1737.73,"endTime":1739.69,"body":"David - Because it's all using"},{"startTime":1737.73,"endTime":1739.69,"body":"AES-128."},{"startTime":1739.69,"endTime":1740.31,"body":"Deirdre - Yep."},{"startTime":1740.31,"endTime":1741.73,"body":"Which is fine, by the way."},{"startTime":1741.87,"endTime":1742.99,"body":"Uh, I don't know."},{"startTime":1742.99,"endTime":1745.917,"body":"There was a, a lovely blog post"},{"startTime":1742.99,"endTime":1745.917,"body":"that went around recently"},{"startTime":1745.917,"endTime":1749.157,"body":"because people were like, oh, so"},{"startTime":1745.917,"endTime":1749.157,"body":"to be post-quantum, we need to"},{"startTime":1749.157,"endTime":1749.89,"body":"go to AES-256."},{"startTime":1749.89,"endTime":1751.49,"body":"And it's like, no, actually you"},{"startTime":1749.89,"endTime":1751.49,"body":"don't."},{"startTime":1751.49,"endTime":1753.59,"body":"And I guess people don't, don't"},{"startTime":1751.49,"endTime":1753.59,"body":"know this."},{"startTime":1753.59,"endTime":1756.841,"body":"Basically Grover's is not"},{"startTime":1753.59,"endTime":1756.841,"body":"efficient against, uh, against"},{"startTime":1756.841,"endTime":1760.27,"body":"thing, especially things like"},{"startTime":1756.841,"endTime":1760.27,"body":"AES, but even hash functions."},{"startTime":1760.27,"endTime":1762.85,"body":"AES-128 is, is fine."},{"startTime":1762.85,"endTime":1763.91,"body":"You do not need to upgrade."},{"startTime":1763.91,"endTime":1767.024,"body":"The only reason you need to"},{"startTime":1763.91,"endTime":1767.024,"body":"upgrade is if you need to be"},{"startTime":1767.024,"endTime":1770.308,"body":"compliant with CNSA 2.0, and"},{"startTime":1767.024,"endTime":1770.308,"body":"that's just because they, they"},{"startTime":1770.308,"endTime":1773.592,"body":"put all the parameter sets to"},{"startTime":1770.308,"endTime":1773.592,"body":"11, not because they actually"},{"startTime":1773.592,"endTime":1775.745,"body":"are protecting against Grover's"},{"startTime":1773.592,"endTime":1775.745,"body":"attack."},{"startTime":1775.988,"endTime":1777.251,"body":"Anyway, sidebar."},{"startTime":1778.546,"endTime":1781.142,"body":"David - Anyway, so my feedback"},{"startTime":1778.546,"endTime":1781.142,"body":"is to just simply get rid of"},{"startTime":1781.142,"endTime":1781.769,"body":"CMVP entirely."},{"startTime":1783.498,"endTime":1784.21,"body":"Deirdre - Who knows?"},{"startTime":1784.647,"endTime":1787.708,"body":"Like, we've already had Doge"},{"startTime":1784.647,"endTime":1787.708,"body":"come, come through our"},{"startTime":1787.708,"endTime":1788.382,"body":"government."},{"startTime":1788.512,"endTime":1789.547,"body":"You— who knows?"},{"startTime":1789.66,"endTime":1790.986,"body":"Maybe that will actually happen."},{"startTime":1791.099,"endTime":1792.539,"body":"It'd be very, very interesting."},{"startTime":1794.42,"endTime":1795.893,"body":"Uh, anything else?"},{"startTime":1796.217,"endTime":1800.329,"body":"Oh, uh, contractor vulnerability"},{"startTime":1796.217,"endTime":1800.329,"body":"disclosure programs."},{"startTime":1801.494,"endTime":1801.786,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":1803.81,"endTime":1806.472,"body":"That VDPs incorporate reports of"},{"startTime":1803.81,"endTime":1806.472,"body":"cryptographic vulnerabilities"},{"startTime":1806.472,"endTime":1809.09,"body":"including testing for lack of"},{"startTime":1806.472,"endTime":1809.09,"body":"encryption, the use of non-FIPS"},{"startTime":1809.09,"endTime":1809.964,"body":"approved algorithms."},{"startTime":1810.482,"endTime":1812.263,"body":"Cool, that's neat."},{"startTime":1812.666,"endTime":1813.409,"body":"What's FAR?"},{"startTime":1813.651,"endTime":1817.725,"body":"David - It was probably the"},{"startTime":1813.651,"endTime":1817.725,"body":"Federal Acquisition Regulatory"},{"startTime":1817.725,"endTime":1818.297,"body":"Council."},{"startTime":1818.491,"endTime":1819.184,"body":"Deirdre - Oh, okay."},{"startTime":1819.596,"endTime":1821.502,"body":"David - Uh, I think this is"},{"startTime":1819.596,"endTime":1821.502,"body":"probably going to be a net"},{"startTime":1821.502,"endTime":1821.826,"body":"negative."},{"startTime":1822.724,"endTime":1825.568,"body":"Um, well, I don't know, like,"},{"startTime":1822.724,"endTime":1825.568,"body":"what do they mean by, I guess"},{"startTime":1825.568,"endTime":1828.608,"body":"it's probably in the definitions"},{"startTime":1825.568,"endTime":1828.608,"body":"up above, but like contractor,"},{"startTime":1828.608,"endTime":1831.599,"body":"if contractor means like labs,"},{"startTime":1828.608,"endTime":1831.599,"body":"like, I hope they don't, aren't"},{"startTime":1831.599,"endTime":1833.856,"body":"like having the labs check for"},{"startTime":1831.599,"endTime":1833.856,"body":"vulnerabilities."},{"startTime":1834.449,"endTime":1836.897,"body":"If they're just saying like"},{"startTime":1834.449,"endTime":1836.897,"body":"people that we're buying"},{"startTime":1836.897,"endTime":1839.537,"body":"cryptography from should have a"},{"startTime":1836.897,"endTime":1839.537,"body":"vulnerability disclosure"},{"startTime":1839.537,"endTime":1840.737,"body":"program, then like, sure."},{"startTime":1841.186,"endTime":1842.678,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah, I guess that"},{"startTime":1841.186,"endTime":1842.678,"body":"sounds good."},{"startTime":1842.774,"endTime":1845.324,"body":"David - Everyone should have a"},{"startTime":1842.774,"endTime":1845.324,"body":"vulnerability disclosure policy."},{"startTime":1845.389,"endTime":1847.009,"body":"Most people should not have a"},{"startTime":1845.389,"endTime":1847.009,"body":"bug bounty."},{"startTime":1847.888,"endTime":1850.926,"body":"Yeah, that is my stance."},{"startTime":1852.228,"endTime":1856.688,"body":"Uh, and, uh, I think, and then"},{"startTime":1852.228,"endTime":1856.688,"body":"Section 7 is the none of this is"},{"startTime":1856.688,"endTime":1857.839,"body":"illegal section."},{"startTime":1858.192,"endTime":1860.978,"body":"Deirdre - Hopefully the costs"},{"startTime":1858.192,"endTime":1860.978,"body":"for the public issue of the"},{"startTime":1860.978,"endTime":1863.517,"body":"source shall be borne by the"},{"startTime":1860.978,"endTime":1863.517,"body":"Department of Commerce."},{"startTime":1863.982,"endTime":1866.044,"body":"Of course, poor, poor them."},{"startTime":1866.302,"endTime":1866.946,"body":"Poor Litnik."},{"startTime":1867.123,"endTime":1867.333,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":1867.848,"endTime":1869.991,"body":"Yeah, so that's, uh, that's it."},{"startTime":1870.345,"endTime":1872.52,"body":"That's, uh, that's the EO."},{"startTime":1872.98,"endTime":1873.781,"body":"It's very exciting."},{"startTime":1874.23,"endTime":1874.535,"body":"David - Yeah."},{"startTime":1874.631,"endTime":1878.623,"body":"So I think takeaways for most"},{"startTime":1874.631,"endTime":1878.623,"body":"people should just be to update"},{"startTime":1878.623,"endTime":1882.882,"body":"your TLS server software or, um,"},{"startTime":1878.623,"endTime":1882.882,"body":"which if you're like using a VM,"},{"startTime":1882.882,"endTime":1886.941,"body":"you can just like do now and you"},{"startTime":1882.882,"endTime":1886.941,"body":"should be getting TLS Quantum"},{"startTime":1886.941,"endTime":1890.867,"body":"Key Exchange out of the box,"},{"startTime":1886.941,"endTime":1890.867,"body":"probably hybrid, um, 25519 with"},{"startTime":1890.867,"endTime":1891.468,"body":"MLKEM768."},{"startTime":1891.613,"endTime":1893.296,"body":"That's enabled by default in,"},{"startTime":1891.613,"endTime":1893.296,"body":"yep."},{"startTime":1893.777,"endTime":1898.708,"body":"I believe like OpenSSL 3.5 and"},{"startTime":1893.777,"endTime":1898.708,"body":"newer and boringSSL and all the"},{"startTime":1898.708,"endTime":1899.598,"body":"other SSLs."},{"startTime":1900.16,"endTime":1900.32,"body":"Deirdre - Yep."},{"startTime":1900.449,"endTime":1903.494,"body":"David - If you're using a, like,"},{"startTime":1900.449,"endTime":1903.494,"body":"TLS load balancer from a cloud,"},{"startTime":1903.494,"endTime":1905.669,"body":"it probably supports all of"},{"startTime":1903.494,"endTime":1905.669,"body":"those now as well."},{"startTime":1905.798,"endTime":1907.243,"body":"And if not, it will very soon."},{"startTime":1908.127,"endTime":1911.085,"body":"And like, again, the step there"},{"startTime":1908.127,"endTime":1911.085,"body":"will just be to like, roll your"},{"startTime":1911.085,"endTime":1913.852,"body":"config to the new version,"},{"startTime":1911.085,"endTime":1913.852,"body":"enable it, or just let it update"},{"startTime":1913.852,"endTime":1916.335,"body":"itself depending on, you know,"},{"startTime":1913.852,"endTime":1916.335,"body":"how you're configured."},{"startTime":1916.977,"endTime":1918.744,"body":"And all of that should be pretty"},{"startTime":1916.977,"endTime":1918.744,"body":"straightforward."},{"startTime":1919.37,"endTime":1922.628,"body":"And then for publicly accessible"},{"startTime":1919.37,"endTime":1922.628,"body":"websites, like, you're just"},{"startTime":1922.628,"endTime":1925.667,"body":"gonna need to wait until the"},{"startTime":1922.628,"endTime":1925.667,"body":"certificates are available."},{"startTime":1926.117,"endTime":1926.197,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":1926.293,"endTime":1928.75,"body":"David - And then you have just a"},{"startTime":1926.293,"endTime":1928.75,"body":"certificate management problem,"},{"startTime":1928.75,"endTime":1929.102,"body":"you know?"},{"startTime":1929.246,"endTime":1929.359,"body":"Deirdre - Yep."},{"startTime":1929.968,"endTime":1934.335,"body":"Uh, and you know, Modulo Chrome"},{"startTime":1929.968,"endTime":1934.335,"body":"trusting, Modulo Chrome having"},{"startTime":1934.335,"endTime":1937.271,"body":"a, a trust store beyond Merkle"},{"startTime":1934.335,"endTime":1937.271,"body":"tree certs."},{"startTime":1937.913,"endTime":1943.16,"body":"Um, I'm pretty sure that a lot"},{"startTime":1937.913,"endTime":1943.16,"body":"of publicly trusted CAs, um,"},{"startTime":1943.16,"endTime":1948.226,"body":"either already have ML-DSA"},{"startTime":1943.16,"endTime":1948.226,"body":"support, um, like operational,"},{"startTime":1948.226,"endTime":1953.744,"body":"they just don't have an ML-DSA"},{"startTime":1948.226,"endTime":1953.744,"body":"root, uh, in other root stores,"},{"startTime":1953.744,"endTime":1956.46,"body":"trust stores out in the world."},{"startTime":1956.636,"endTime":1959.03,"body":"It's kind of a little bit of a"},{"startTime":1956.636,"endTime":1959.03,"body":"chicken and an egg issue with"},{"startTime":1959.03,"endTime":1959.233,"body":"them."},{"startTime":1959.57,"endTime":1963.023,"body":"Um, and this is regular"},{"startTime":1959.57,"endTime":1963.023,"body":"schmegular ML-DSA certificates,"},{"startTime":1963.023,"endTime":1965.837,"body":"not the fancy new, new gen"},{"startTime":1963.023,"endTime":1965.837,"body":"Merkle tree certs."},{"startTime":1966.302,"endTime":1969.406,"body":"David - Um, no, those are like"},{"startTime":1966.302,"endTime":1969.406,"body":"not gonna end up being an option"},{"startTime":1969.406,"endTime":1970.758,"body":"for publicly trusted sites."},{"startTime":1970.806,"endTime":1974.559,"body":"Like at this point, like all but"},{"startTime":1970.806,"endTime":1974.559,"body":"like a lot of the browsers have"},{"startTime":1974.559,"endTime":1978.073,"body":"signaled in various forums, not"},{"startTime":1974.559,"endTime":1978.073,"body":"to speak on behalf of any of"},{"startTime":1978.073,"endTime":1978.372,"body":"them."},{"startTime":1978.644,"endTime":1979.157,"body":"Um, yeah."},{"startTime":1979.607,"endTime":1983.697,"body":"That like the, because of the"},{"startTime":1979.607,"endTime":1983.697,"body":"need for transparency for public"},{"startTime":1983.697,"endTime":1987.586,"body":"PKIs, meaning like the full set"},{"startTime":1983.697,"endTime":1987.586,"body":"of certificates is publicly"},{"startTime":1987.586,"endTime":1988.258,"body":"disclosed."},{"startTime":1988.756,"endTime":1989.077,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":1989.173,"endTime":1992.196,"body":"David - Um, uh, the, if there"},{"startTime":1989.173,"endTime":1992.196,"body":"was a, a non-Merkle tree"},{"startTime":1992.196,"endTime":1995.561,"body":"certificate, which we haven't"},{"startTime":1992.196,"endTime":1995.561,"body":"really defined, but we've been"},{"startTime":1995.561,"endTime":1998.983,"body":"talking around, but if there was"},{"startTime":1995.561,"endTime":1998.983,"body":"an old style ButML DSA, like"},{"startTime":1998.983,"endTime":2001.891,"body":"root store, that would require"},{"startTime":1998.983,"endTime":2001.891,"body":"old style certificate"},{"startTime":2001.891,"endTime":2004.914,"body":"transparency and that system"},{"startTime":2001.891,"endTime":2004.914,"body":"would fall over, um, in a"},{"startTime":2004.914,"endTime":2007.311,"body":"post-quantum world for a number"},{"startTime":2004.914,"endTime":2007.311,"body":"of reasons."},{"startTime":2007.936,"endTime":2011.19,"body":"Deirdre - And so in a"},{"startTime":2007.936,"endTime":2011.19,"body":"post-quantum world, or you could"},{"startTime":2011.19,"endTime":2014.567,"body":"just do something, a terrible"},{"startTime":2011.19,"endTime":2014.567,"body":"bridge where you have your"},{"startTime":2014.567,"endTime":2017.821,"body":"ML-DSA cert, but you have, uh,"},{"startTime":2014.567,"endTime":2017.821,"body":"ECDSA, uh, transparency"},{"startTime":2017.821,"endTime":2018.497,"body":"statements."},{"startTime":2018.689,"endTime":2021.972,"body":"David - That would still fall"},{"startTime":2018.689,"endTime":2021.972,"body":"over publicly in a sense,"},{"startTime":2021.972,"endTime":2025.195,"body":"because like the full"},{"startTime":2021.972,"endTime":2025.195,"body":"certificate contents are logged."},{"startTime":2025.66,"endTime":2028.82,"body":"And so if you like drastically"},{"startTime":2025.66,"endTime":2028.82,"body":"increase the size of the"},{"startTime":2028.82,"endTime":2032.214,"body":"certificate, the set of people"},{"startTime":2028.82,"endTime":2032.214,"body":"that are currently basically"},{"startTime":2032.214,"endTime":2035.549,"body":"running CT logs out of the"},{"startTime":2032.214,"endTime":2035.549,"body":"goodness of their heart,, would"},{"startTime":2035.549,"endTime":2038.65,"body":"probably not be super happy"},{"startTime":2035.549,"endTime":2038.65,"body":"about, you know, um, these"},{"startTime":2038.65,"endTime":2041.927,"body":"things that are just like"},{"startTime":2038.65,"endTime":2041.927,"body":"basically a net negative to run"},{"startTime":2041.927,"endTime":2045.145,"body":"suddenly, like doubling,"},{"startTime":2041.927,"endTime":2045.145,"body":"quadrupling, 10x-ing in storage"},{"startTime":2045.145,"endTime":2045.5,"body":"costs."},{"startTime":2045.5,"endTime":2045.96,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":2045.96,"endTime":2048.876,"body":"I, I was thinking of literally"},{"startTime":2045.96,"endTime":2048.876,"body":"all the SIGs and, and key public"},{"startTime":2048.876,"endTime":2050.24,"body":"keys that you're downloading."},{"startTime":2050.74,"endTime":2051.06,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2051.06,"endTime":2053.707,"body":"Those would be smaller if you"},{"startTime":2051.06,"endTime":2053.707,"body":"did a little bit of mix and"},{"startTime":2053.707,"endTime":2056.496,"body":"match and relied on and just"},{"startTime":2053.707,"endTime":2056.496,"body":"kind of, you know, crossed your"},{"startTime":2056.496,"endTime":2059.332,"body":"fingers that the transparency"},{"startTime":2056.496,"endTime":2059.332,"body":"benefits, uh, be given by ECDSA"},{"startTime":2059.332,"endTime":2060.94,"body":"would give you a little bit"},{"startTime":2059.332,"endTime":2060.94,"body":"longer."},{"startTime":2060.94,"endTime":2063.645,"body":"But you're right, for the log"},{"startTime":2060.94,"endTime":2063.645,"body":"operators, there still gets"},{"startTime":2063.645,"endTime":2064.853,"body":"They'll still get fucked."},{"startTime":2065.078,"endTime":2069.07,"body":"David - Yeah, but there are"},{"startTime":2065.078,"endTime":2069.07,"body":"definitely a number of companies"},{"startTime":2069.07,"endTime":2072.657,"body":"that offer like private PKI"},{"startTime":2069.07,"endTime":2072.657,"body":"ML-DSA products right now."},{"startTime":2073.251,"endTime":2074.744,"body":"Yeah, I think I've done it for a"},{"startTime":2073.251,"endTime":2074.744,"body":"while."},{"startTime":2075.033,"endTime":2079.262,"body":"There are many HSMs that support"},{"startTime":2075.033,"endTime":2079.262,"body":"it, although none of them have a"},{"startTime":2079.262,"endTime":2083.293,"body":"CMVP yet, um, because NIST is"},{"startTime":2079.262,"endTime":2083.293,"body":"just behind on, uh, on approving"},{"startTime":2083.293,"endTime":2083.624,"body":"them."},{"startTime":2084.106,"endTime":2086.434,"body":"Yes, they have CAVPs but not"},{"startTime":2084.106,"endTime":2086.434,"body":"CMVPs."},{"startTime":2086.916,"endTime":2090.242,"body":"Deirdre - Was it the first, uh,"},{"startTime":2086.916,"endTime":2090.242,"body":"validated implementation of"},{"startTime":2090.242,"endTime":2093.625,"body":"ML-DSA was only like this year,"},{"startTime":2090.242,"endTime":2093.625,"body":"2026 or something like that,"},{"startTime":2093.625,"endTime":2095.06,"body":"that finally got through."},{"startTime":2095.06,"endTime":2098.132,"body":"And it was in the pipeline for"},{"startTime":2095.06,"endTime":2098.132,"body":"like 18 months or something like"},{"startTime":2098.132,"endTime":2098.38,"body":"that."},{"startTime":2098.38,"endTime":2099.06,"body":"David - It took so long."},{"startTime":2099.2,"endTime":2102.68,"body":"The final standard was released"},{"startTime":2099.2,"endTime":2102.68,"body":"in like July of 2024."},{"startTime":2102.68,"endTime":2104.06,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah, I think that's"},{"startTime":2102.68,"endTime":2104.06,"body":"correct."},{"startTime":2104.06,"endTime":2105.15,"body":"Yeah, or August, I forget."},{"startTime":2105.66,"endTime":2106.49,"body":"David - Yeah, July or August."},{"startTime":2107.24,"endTime":2108.2,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah, and it took that"},{"startTime":2107.24,"endTime":2108.2,"body":"long."},{"startTime":2108.2,"endTime":2111.07,"body":"They, they had it ready to go"},{"startTime":2108.2,"endTime":2111.07,"body":"and they, they shoved it in"},{"startTime":2111.07,"endTime":2113.94,"body":"there and it took that long to"},{"startTime":2111.07,"endTime":2113.94,"body":"get validated or whatever."},{"startTime":2113.94,"endTime":2116.217,"body":"David - Yeah, it was an"},{"startTime":2113.94,"endTime":2116.217,"body":"extremely minor change in the"},{"startTime":2116.217,"endTime":2118.1,"body":"final standard from the last"},{"startTime":2116.217,"endTime":2118.1,"body":"draft standard."},{"startTime":2118.1,"endTime":2119.053,"body":"Deirdre - And so yeah, Yep."},{"startTime":2120.098,"endTime":2121.335,"body":"It just takes so long."},{"startTime":2121.383,"endTime":2125.171,"body":"So yeah, we'll see if, uh, they"},{"startTime":2121.383,"endTime":2125.171,"body":"literally just chuck CMVP out"},{"startTime":2125.171,"endTime":2125.866,"body":"the window."},{"startTime":2125.962,"endTime":2129.722,"body":"That's a way to update"},{"startTime":2125.962,"endTime":2129.722,"body":"procedures or what they do,"},{"startTime":2129.722,"endTime":2134.326,"body":"because this may be possibly the"},{"startTime":2129.722,"endTime":2134.326,"body":"best opportunity to overhaul"},{"startTime":2134.326,"endTime":2138.317,"body":"that program since it's come"},{"startTime":2134.326,"endTime":2138.317,"body":"into existence, I think."},{"startTime":2138.976,"endTime":2139.764,"body":"But, uh, we'll see."},{"startTime":2139.86,"endTime":2140.711,"body":"We'll see how that goes."},{"startTime":2141.451,"endTime":2144.841,"body":"David - Earlier in the year, um,"},{"startTime":2141.451,"endTime":2144.841,"body":"I saw this talk."},{"startTime":2145.226,"endTime":2149.548,"body":"And it was, it was kind of like"},{"startTime":2145.226,"endTime":2149.548,"body":"the scene in The Big Short where"},{"startTime":2149.548,"endTime":2153.801,"body":"Steve Carell's character comes"},{"startTime":2149.548,"endTime":2153.801,"body":"and meets the guy in Vegas who's"},{"startTime":2153.801,"endTime":2157.576,"body":"like on the other side of the"},{"startTime":2153.801,"endTime":2157.576,"body":"trade, like selling stuff."},{"startTime":2158.314,"endTime":2159.052,"body":"Deirdre - And they're eating"},{"startTime":2158.314,"endTime":2159.052,"body":"sushi."},{"startTime":2159.437,"endTime":2159.549,"body":"David - Yeah."},{"startTime":2159.661,"endTime":2160.415,"body":"And they're eating sushi."},{"startTime":2161.827,"endTime":2164.462,"body":"And Steve Carell's getting"},{"startTime":2161.827,"endTime":2164.462,"body":"angrier and angrier at this guy"},{"startTime":2164.462,"endTime":2167.328,"body":"who's basically just like taking"},{"startTime":2164.462,"endTime":2167.328,"body":"money off the top of the trade"},{"startTime":2167.328,"endTime":2168.948,"body":"and like fucking over his"},{"startTime":2167.328,"endTime":2168.948,"body":"customers."},{"startTime":2169.445,"endTime":2172.917,"body":"But you're just like, oh, like"},{"startTime":2169.445,"endTime":2172.917,"body":"this person like actually"},{"startTime":2172.917,"endTime":2173.359,"body":"exists."},{"startTime":2173.953,"endTime":2176.811,"body":"And for me earlier this year, I"},{"startTime":2173.953,"endTime":2176.811,"body":"was at this talk and there was"},{"startTime":2176.811,"endTime":2179.248,"body":"someone who was like, just"},{"startTime":2176.811,"endTime":2179.248,"body":"giving this talk about how"},{"startTime":2179.248,"endTime":2182.2,"body":"important it is that when you're"},{"startTime":2179.248,"endTime":2182.2,"body":"in a sys— system where like you"},{"startTime":2182.2,"endTime":2185.152,"body":"need FIPS cryptography, you make"},{"startTime":2182.2,"endTime":2185.152,"body":"sure that you're like, actually"},{"startTime":2185.152,"endTime":2187.776,"body":"using all of the FIPS stuff"},{"startTime":2185.152,"endTime":2187.776,"body":"everywhere, because otherwise"},{"startTime":2187.776,"endTime":2190.122,"body":"who knows what kind of"},{"startTime":2187.776,"endTime":2190.122,"body":"cryptography you're getting."},{"startTime":2190.62,"endTime":2193.687,"body":"And like, it's not just enough"},{"startTime":2190.62,"endTime":2193.687,"body":"to like get OpenSSL that lists"},{"startTime":2193.687,"endTime":2195.528,"body":"FIPS, like other stuff might be"},{"startTime":2193.687,"endTime":2195.528,"body":"used."},{"startTime":2195.769,"endTime":2198.298,"body":"And the only way to know that"},{"startTime":2195.769,"endTime":2198.298,"body":"you have like high assurance"},{"startTime":2198.298,"endTime":2200.782,"body":"cryptography is to like make"},{"startTime":2198.298,"endTime":2200.782,"body":"sure you have the thing that"},{"startTime":2200.782,"endTime":2202.203,"body":"actually got like FIPS verified."},{"startTime":2202.267,"endTime":2204.081,"body":"And I was like, oh shit, man."},{"startTime":2204.675,"endTime":2209.297,"body":"Like, I got bad news for you"},{"startTime":2204.675,"endTime":2209.297,"body":"about like most products you've"},{"startTime":2209.297,"endTime":2210.629,"body":"ever used, right?"},{"startTime":2210.678,"endTime":2214.546,"body":"Like, not, not that like"},{"startTime":2210.678,"endTime":2214.546,"body":"everyone's out here doing fraud,"},{"startTime":2214.546,"endTime":2218.414,"body":"but just like in practice, it's"},{"startTime":2214.546,"endTime":2218.414,"body":"not possible to get these"},{"startTime":2218.414,"endTime":2222.558,"body":"validations, um, at a rate or"},{"startTime":2218.414,"endTime":2222.558,"body":"reflective of every environment"},{"startTime":2222.558,"endTime":2226.359,"body":"in the way that like all of this"},{"startTime":2222.558,"endTime":2226.359,"body":"stuff is actually used."},{"startTime":2226.423,"endTime":2228.991,"body":"And that's, that's why I think"},{"startTime":2226.423,"endTime":2228.991,"body":"like CAVP makes much more sense"},{"startTime":2228.991,"endTime":2231.516,"body":"because it's just like, let's"},{"startTime":2228.991,"endTime":2231.516,"body":"make sure we're using the right"},{"startTime":2231.516,"endTime":2231.98,"body":"algorithms."},{"startTime":2232.446,"endTime":2235.241,"body":"But like the chance of you"},{"startTime":2232.446,"endTime":2235.241,"body":"actually being able to verify to"},{"startTime":2235.241,"endTime":2237.891,"body":"the letter of the law of how"},{"startTime":2235.241,"endTime":2237.891,"body":"you're supposed to verify a"},{"startTime":2237.891,"endTime":2240.493,"body":"cryptographic module is"},{"startTime":2237.891,"endTime":2240.493,"body":"basically zero when it comes to"},{"startTime":2240.493,"endTime":2241.989,"body":"actually distributing software."},{"startTime":2242.39,"endTime":2246.463,"body":"Deirdre - And the argument of"},{"startTime":2242.39,"endTime":2246.463,"body":"like, and even if you are able"},{"startTime":2246.463,"endTime":2250.536,"body":"to do it, like the value to"},{"startTime":2246.463,"endTime":2250.536,"body":"security, uh, is very debatable,"},{"startTime":2250.536,"endTime":2254.678,"body":"um, about that procedure for"},{"startTime":2250.536,"endTime":2254.678,"body":"actually like validation, um, is"},{"startTime":2254.678,"endTime":2255.371,"body":"debatable."},{"startTime":2255.42,"endTime":2257.829,"body":"David - And there's a they're"},{"startTime":2255.42,"endTime":2257.829,"body":"supposed to have like a"},{"startTime":2257.829,"endTime":2260.701,"body":"self-test of them as well, which"},{"startTime":2257.829,"endTime":2260.701,"body":"requires like a hash of itself"},{"startTime":2260.701,"endTime":2261.49,"body":"in it, basically."},{"startTime":2261.49,"endTime":2261.69,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2261.69,"endTime":2261.87,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2261.87,"endTime":2261.99,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2262.05,"endTime":2264.29,"body":"Um, which then gets submitted in"},{"startTime":2262.05,"endTime":2264.29,"body":"the cert."},{"startTime":2264.29,"endTime":2267.927,"body":"And so like your, your, your"},{"startTime":2264.29,"endTime":2267.927,"body":"validation only applies to like"},{"startTime":2267.927,"endTime":2271.01,"body":"the specific, like hash of your"},{"startTime":2267.927,"endTime":2271.01,"body":"thing, technically."},{"startTime":2271.01,"endTime":2273.846,"body":"Um, but that is a problem of"},{"startTime":2271.01,"endTime":2273.846,"body":"like, well, if it takes 18"},{"startTime":2273.846,"endTime":2276.998,"body":"fucking months to like get one"},{"startTime":2273.846,"endTime":2276.998,"body":"of these things verified, like"},{"startTime":2276.998,"endTime":2278.89,"body":"you're gonna make changes"},{"startTime":2276.998,"endTime":2278.89,"body":"underneath."},{"startTime":2278.89,"endTime":2279.47,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":2279.47,"endTime":2282.985,"body":"Um, and so it's also, uh, you"},{"startTime":2279.47,"endTime":2282.985,"body":"can't, you can't change like a"},{"startTime":2282.985,"endTime":2283.7,"body":"doc comment."},{"startTime":2283.81,"endTime":2285.89,"body":"You can't like, there's, well,"},{"startTime":2283.81,"endTime":2285.89,"body":"depending on how you, in theory."},{"startTime":2285.89,"endTime":2285.91,"body":"David - Yeah."},{"startTime":2285.91,"endTime":2288.996,"body":"Deirdre - Well, that, that's not"},{"startTime":2285.91,"endTime":2288.996,"body":"technically basically, you know,"},{"startTime":2288.996,"endTime":2289.672,"body":"FIPS approved."},{"startTime":2290.043,"endTime":2292.907,"body":"David - Now, most of the"},{"startTime":2290.043,"endTime":2292.907,"body":"downstream requirements that"},{"startTime":2292.907,"endTime":2295.993,"body":"like you don't need specifically"},{"startTime":2292.907,"endTime":2295.993,"body":"to have that FIPS thing."},{"startTime":2296.091,"endTime":2300.298,"body":"So like FedRAMP, for example,"},{"startTime":2296.091,"endTime":2300.298,"body":"now lets you update, like be"},{"startTime":2300.298,"endTime":2303.693,"body":"like, as long as you are"},{"startTime":2300.298,"endTime":2303.693,"body":"regularly getting your"},{"startTime":2303.693,"endTime":2307.752,"body":"cryptographic module validated"},{"startTime":2303.693,"endTime":2307.752,"body":"whenever you make a large"},{"startTime":2307.752,"endTime":2312.254,"body":"change, then it's fine for you"},{"startTime":2307.752,"endTime":2312.254,"body":"to update it in between because"},{"startTime":2312.254,"endTime":2316.165,"body":"like, you know, bug fixes are"},{"startTime":2312.254,"endTime":2316.165,"body":"good and new features or"},{"startTime":2316.165,"endTime":2317.496,"body":"whatever are good."},{"startTime":2318.22,"endTime":2322.77,"body":"But like at some point, like,"},{"startTime":2318.22,"endTime":2322.77,"body":"like what are we doing here?"},{"startTime":2323.07,"endTime":2325.55,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah, I got, I totally"},{"startTime":2323.07,"endTime":2325.55,"body":"forgot about FedRAMP."},{"startTime":2325.55,"endTime":2327.749,"body":"So this, this is going to impact"},{"startTime":2325.55,"endTime":2327.749,"body":"FedRAMP, but it's not"},{"startTime":2327.749,"endTime":2328.87,"body":"specifically named in here."},{"startTime":2328.87,"endTime":2331.676,"body":"David - So like, I guess there's"},{"startTime":2328.87,"endTime":2331.676,"body":"nothing specific, but yeah,"},{"startTime":2331.676,"endTime":2334.53,"body":"well, that's just going to be"},{"startTime":2331.676,"endTime":2334.53,"body":"downstream of like FedRAMP says"},{"startTime":2334.53,"endTime":2336.91,"body":"you need things that are like"},{"startTime":2334.53,"endTime":2336.91,"body":"FIPS 140-3 validated."},{"startTime":2337.33,"endTime":2340.31,"body":"And then that now involves"},{"startTime":2337.33,"endTime":2340.31,"body":"covering these other things."},{"startTime":2340.31,"endTime":2342.87,"body":"So I don't think FedRAMP itself"},{"startTime":2340.31,"endTime":2342.87,"body":"really needs to change."},{"startTime":2343.13,"endTime":2343.35,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":2343.35,"endTime":2346.047,"body":"David - Like, I don't know,"},{"startTime":2343.35,"endTime":2346.047,"body":"maybe they make a, post-quantum"},{"startTime":2346.047,"endTime":2348.837,"body":"secure statement at some point,"},{"startTime":2346.047,"endTime":2348.837,"body":"but it'll kind of fall out of"},{"startTime":2348.837,"endTime":2349.767,"body":"the FIPS validation."},{"startTime":2350.806,"endTime":2356.957,"body":"Oh, personally, I like it better"},{"startTime":2350.806,"endTime":2356.957,"body":"when there aren't a bunch of"},{"startTime":2356.957,"endTime":2362.186,"body":"executive orders around, like my"},{"startTime":2356.957,"endTime":2362.186,"body":"non-government job."},{"startTime":2363.139,"endTime":2363.624,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":2364.012,"endTime":2364.076,"body":"David - Yeah."},{"startTime":2364.125,"endTime":2365.369,"body":"I don't know about your"},{"startTime":2364.125,"endTime":2365.369,"body":"experience."},{"startTime":2366.67,"endTime":2367.673,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":2367.9,"endTime":2370.685,"body":"I don't, I, part of me is like,"},{"startTime":2367.9,"endTime":2370.685,"body":"this could be good."},{"startTime":2370.75,"endTime":2373.228,"body":"And part of me is just like,"},{"startTime":2370.75,"endTime":2373.228,"body":"what, what are we doing?"},{"startTime":2373.786,"endTime":2376.451,"body":"I mean, I— yeah, I don't know."},{"startTime":2376.676,"endTime":2377.013,"body":"We'll see."},{"startTime":2377.238,"endTime":2381.39,"body":"Especially because it's like"},{"startTime":2377.238,"endTime":2381.39,"body":"high-impact systems, which, for"},{"startTime":2381.39,"endTime":2385.753,"body":"example, those might be things"},{"startTime":2381.39,"endTime":2385.753,"body":"like the IRS's computers and the"},{"startTime":2385.753,"endTime":2389.623,"body":"State Department systems that"},{"startTime":2385.753,"endTime":2389.623,"body":"let it issue passports and"},{"startTime":2389.623,"endTime":2393.705,"body":"things like that, and like help"},{"startTime":2389.623,"endTime":2393.705,"body":"maintain consular security,"},{"startTime":2393.705,"endTime":2394.833,"body":"stuff like that."},{"startTime":2395.379,"endTime":2399.302,"body":"Um, so important stuff, but"},{"startTime":2395.379,"endTime":2399.302,"body":"definitely there's going to be"},{"startTime":2399.302,"endTime":2403.637,"body":"whole— a whole bunch of parts of"},{"startTime":2399.302,"endTime":2403.637,"body":"the federal government that may"},{"startTime":2403.637,"endTime":2407.215,"body":"not be PQ, um, even if"},{"startTime":2403.637,"endTime":2407.215,"body":"everything in this EO is like,"},{"startTime":2407.215,"endTime":2411.14,"body":"um, fulfilled all the way down"},{"startTime":2407.215,"endTime":2411.14,"body":"to the, down to the letter."},{"startTime":2411.893,"endTime":2413.88,"body":"Um, we'll see, we'll see how it"},{"startTime":2411.893,"endTime":2413.88,"body":"goes."},{"startTime":2415.033,"endTime":2415.562,"body":"I don't hate it."},{"startTime":2416.171,"endTime":2419.302,"body":"I'm kind of amazed it does not"},{"startTime":2416.171,"endTime":2419.302,"body":"say quantum cryptography in"},{"startTime":2419.302,"endTime":2419.632,"body":"there."},{"startTime":2420.065,"endTime":2423.21,"body":"David - Also, I heard someone, I"},{"startTime":2420.065,"endTime":2423.21,"body":"heard someone references the"},{"startTime":2423.21,"endTime":2426.04,"body":"quantum key distribution or"},{"startTime":2423.21,"endTime":2426.04,"body":"anything like that, quantum"},{"startTime":2426.04,"endTime":2426.618,"body":"randomness."},{"startTime":2426.73,"endTime":2430.028,"body":"Deirdre - Thank God, like The"},{"startTime":2426.73,"endTime":2430.028,"body":"Little Mercies, because there's"},{"startTime":2430.028,"endTime":2433.381,"body":"been chatter, more chatter about"},{"startTime":2430.028,"endTime":2433.381,"body":"that, I think because there's"},{"startTime":2433.381,"endTime":2436.569,"body":"funding coming out of like the"},{"startTime":2433.381,"endTime":2436.569,"body":"EU or something for EU-based"},{"startTime":2436.569,"endTime":2437.175,"body":"businesses."},{"startTime":2437.288,"endTime":2440.243,"body":"And it's just like, no, no, no,"},{"startTime":2437.288,"endTime":2440.243,"body":"we don't want none of that."},{"startTime":2440.841,"endTime":2441.535,"body":"I was having to— you—."},{"startTime":2441.891,"endTime":2443.893,"body":"David - Is a great place to take"},{"startTime":2441.891,"endTime":2443.893,"body":"vacation."},{"startTime":2446.588,"endTime":2447.348,"body":"Deirdre - There's nothing"},{"startTime":2446.588,"endTime":2447.348,"body":"about—."},{"startTime":2447.348,"endTime":2449.37,"body":"David - This is a great place to"},{"startTime":2447.348,"endTime":2449.37,"body":"host a World Cup, apparently."},{"startTime":2449.904,"endTime":2453.435,"body":"Deirdre - Um, Boston is a great"},{"startTime":2449.904,"endTime":2453.435,"body":"place to host any Scotland"},{"startTime":2453.435,"endTime":2453.931,"body":"matches."},{"startTime":2454.19,"endTime":2458.626,"body":"Um, I am sad that I was not"},{"startTime":2454.19,"endTime":2458.626,"body":"spending as much time in Boston"},{"startTime":2458.626,"endTime":2462.909,"body":"while, you know, every Scots"},{"startTime":2458.626,"endTime":2462.909,"body":"person, Scottish person, um,"},{"startTime":2462.909,"endTime":2466.963,"body":"that could ambulate made it to"},{"startTime":2462.909,"endTime":2466.963,"body":"my hometown for a week."},{"startTime":2467.62,"endTime":2469.144,"body":"But, uh, I want them to come"},{"startTime":2467.62,"endTime":2469.144,"body":"back."},{"startTime":2469.385,"endTime":2472.645,"body":"Now the English are over there"},{"startTime":2469.385,"endTime":2472.645,"body":"and everyone's like, boo, we"},{"startTime":2472.645,"endTime":2473.939,"body":"want the Scottish back."},{"startTime":2474.677,"endTime":2477.052,"body":"David - English historically"},{"startTime":2474.677,"endTime":2477.052,"body":"haven't had a great time in"},{"startTime":2477.052,"endTime":2477.355,"body":"Boston."},{"startTime":2477.788,"endTime":2480.37,"body":"Deirdre - No, it was— yeah."},{"startTime":2481.608,"endTime":2484.92,"body":"Um, I swear someone said that"},{"startTime":2481.608,"endTime":2484.92,"body":"there was a mention of"},{"startTime":2484.92,"endTime":2489.011,"body":"investment in quantum computing,"},{"startTime":2484.92,"endTime":2489.011,"body":"but it's definitely not in this"},{"startTime":2489.011,"endTime":2489.207,"body":"EO."},{"startTime":2489.288,"endTime":2490.226,"body":"Did I miss another one?"},{"startTime":2490.597,"endTime":2493.981,"body":"Or maybe, maybe Trump was saying"},{"startTime":2490.597,"endTime":2493.981,"body":"the wrong things out of his"},{"startTime":2493.981,"endTime":2494.67,"body":"mouth again."},{"startTime":2497.681,"endTime":2501.265,"body":"David - So, um, there is about"},{"startTime":2497.681,"endTime":2501.265,"body":"that as well."},{"startTime":2502.02,"endTime":2503.98,"body":"Deirdre - Hold on, I'm pasting"},{"startTime":2502.02,"endTime":2503.98,"body":"it in here."},{"startTime":2504.205,"endTime":2506.653,"body":"Yes, there was another one,"},{"startTime":2504.205,"endTime":2506.653,"body":"another presidential action."},{"startTime":2507.71,"endTime":2515.19,"body":"Um, gosh, ushering in— I'm"},{"startTime":2507.71,"endTime":2515.19,"body":"sharing— ushering in the next"},{"startTime":2515.19,"endTime":2519.407,"body":"frontier of quantum innovation."},{"startTime":2520.55,"endTime":2520.792,"body":"David - How long?"},{"startTime":2520.889,"endTime":2521.488,"body":"Deirdre - It's not this one."},{"startTime":2521.618,"endTime":2523.285,"body":"This is on— it's not that long"},{"startTime":2521.618,"endTime":2523.285,"body":"either."},{"startTime":2523.414,"endTime":2525.016,"body":"David - No, so there's a second"},{"startTime":2523.414,"endTime":2525.016,"body":"EO."},{"startTime":2525.437,"endTime":2525.745,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":2526.782,"endTime":2529.782,"body":"David - Um, oh God, two EOs in"},{"startTime":2526.782,"endTime":2529.782,"body":"one show."},{"startTime":2529.864,"endTime":2531.396,"body":"I think that, that might be a"},{"startTime":2529.864,"endTime":2531.396,"body":"bit much."},{"startTime":2532.778,"endTime":2534.389,"body":"Deirdre - I'm scanning,"},{"startTime":2532.778,"endTime":2534.389,"body":"scanning, scanning."},{"startTime":2534.893,"endTime":2536.537,"body":"Updating quantum strategy."},{"startTime":2538.811,"endTime":2541.134,"body":"Harnessing quantum computing for"},{"startTime":2538.811,"endTime":2541.134,"body":"science."},{"startTime":2542.68,"endTime":2547.775,"body":"Secretary of War and a bunch of"},{"startTime":2542.68,"endTime":2547.775,"body":"other secretaries shall ensure"},{"startTime":2547.775,"endTime":2552.87,"body":"that capabilities, manufacturing"},{"startTime":2547.775,"endTime":2552.87,"body":"infrastructure, and expertise"},{"startTime":2552.87,"endTime":2556.547,"body":"are made available to support"},{"startTime":2552.87,"endTime":2556.547,"body":"this QC effort."},{"startTime":2563.008,"endTime":2563.412,"body":"David - Exploration."},{"startTime":2563.477,"endTime":2566.883,"body":"Deirdre - Coordinate with the"},{"startTime":2563.477,"endTime":2566.883,"body":"NASA administrator, the director"},{"startTime":2566.883,"endTime":2567.274,"body":"of NSA."},{"startTime":2569.277,"endTime":2572.495,"body":"David - Uh, to attempt to like"},{"startTime":2569.277,"endTime":2572.495,"body":"keep track of the relative"},{"startTime":2572.495,"endTime":2575.541,"body":"capabilities of different"},{"startTime":2572.495,"endTime":2575.541,"body":"quantum computing systems in"},{"startTime":2575.541,"endTime":2577.956,"body":"order to accurately assess the"},{"startTime":2575.541,"endTime":2577.956,"body":"performance."},{"startTime":2578.45,"endTime":2581.659,"body":"That's interesting because it's"},{"startTime":2578.45,"endTime":2581.659,"body":"really hard to assess relative"},{"startTime":2581.659,"endTime":2584.605,"body":"capabilities of them cuz they"},{"startTime":2581.659,"endTime":2584.605,"body":"all work different ways and"},{"startTime":2584.605,"endTime":2587.5,"body":"basically none of them do"},{"startTime":2584.605,"endTime":2587.5,"body":"anything useful until one day."},{"startTime":2587.977,"endTime":2589.559,"body":"One of them will do many things"},{"startTime":2587.977,"endTime":2589.559,"body":"useful."},{"startTime":2589.994,"endTime":2594.393,"body":"Deirdre - All of a sudden they"},{"startTime":2589.994,"endTime":2594.393,"body":"do a whole bunch of— a whole"},{"startTime":2594.393,"endTime":2598.944,"body":"bunch of useful, uh, Secretary"},{"startTime":2594.393,"endTime":2598.944,"body":"of Energy shall, uh, basically"},{"startTime":2598.944,"endTime":2602.207,"body":"price out and scope out delivery"},{"startTime":2598.944,"endTime":2602.207,"body":"for one QC."},{"startTime":2603.546,"endTime":2604.4,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":2607.497,"endTime":2611.403,"body":"Um, develop a plan to encourage"},{"startTime":2607.497,"endTime":2611.403,"body":"contributions to the effort from"},{"startTime":2611.403,"endTime":2613.759,"body":"commercial quantum computing"},{"startTime":2611.403,"endTime":2613.759,"body":"companies."},{"startTime":2615.564,"endTime":2619.395,"body":"Secretary of War, national"},{"startTime":2615.564,"endTime":2619.395,"body":"security applications of quantum"},{"startTime":2619.395,"endTime":2622.567,"body":"computing, establish a center"},{"startTime":2619.395,"endTime":2622.567,"body":"for such a purpose."},{"startTime":2624.68,"endTime":2625.035,"body":"David - Thought, thought,"},{"startTime":2624.68,"endTime":2625.035,"body":"thought."},{"startTime":2625.181,"endTime":2628.802,"body":"I previously heard of NSA saying"},{"startTime":2625.181,"endTime":2628.802,"body":"that they like to be"},{"startTime":2628.802,"endTime":2632.772,"body":"approximately 7 years ahead in"},{"startTime":2628.802,"endTime":2632.772,"body":"terms of the, like, general"},{"startTime":2632.772,"endTime":2636.254,"body":"public in terms of"},{"startTime":2632.772,"endTime":2636.254,"body":"cryptanalysis, which I know some"},{"startTime":2636.254,"endTime":2640.224,"body":"people have taken to, well, that"},{"startTime":2636.254,"endTime":2640.224,"body":"means they clearly have a"},{"startTime":2640.224,"endTime":2641.688,"body":"quantum computer now."},{"startTime":2642.092,"endTime":2643.158,"body":"I think that's a load of crap."},{"startTime":2643.223,"endTime":2644.014,"body":"There's like no way."},{"startTime":2644.583,"endTime":2647.826,"body":"Yeah, that anyone has a quantum"},{"startTime":2644.583,"endTime":2647.826,"body":"computer now."},{"startTime":2648.275,"endTime":2651.872,"body":"Um, like, we would— there would"},{"startTime":2648.275,"endTime":2651.872,"body":"be downstream effects of that."},{"startTime":2651.952,"endTime":2655.182,"body":"Deirdre - Yes, it's, it's sort"},{"startTime":2651.952,"endTime":2655.182,"body":"of like when, um, all the"},{"startTime":2655.182,"endTime":2658.646,"body":"nuclear scientists just stopped"},{"startTime":2655.182,"endTime":2658.646,"body":"publishing for a while when,"},{"startTime":2658.646,"endTime":2662.169,"body":"like, most of them were either"},{"startTime":2658.646,"endTime":2662.169,"body":"working at the— at Los Alamos,"},{"startTime":2662.169,"endTime":2665.342,"body":"uh, or, you know, some of them"},{"startTime":2662.169,"endTime":2665.342,"body":"were working in Germany."},{"startTime":2666.161,"endTime":2670.599,"body":"Um, it's just like the absence,"},{"startTime":2666.161,"endTime":2670.599,"body":"uh, is a signal, and we we don't"},{"startTime":2670.599,"endTime":2675.037,"body":"have anything close to that, or,"},{"startTime":2670.599,"endTime":2675.037,"body":"or the inverse of sort of like,"},{"startTime":2675.037,"endTime":2679.194,"body":"um, we would see evidence, uh,"},{"startTime":2675.037,"endTime":2679.194,"body":"even, even if it's not direct"},{"startTime":2679.194,"endTime":2679.83,"body":"evidence."},{"startTime":2680.441,"endTime":2683.111,"body":"David - We would also need like"},{"startTime":2680.441,"endTime":2683.111,"body":"technological advances that"},{"startTime":2683.111,"endTime":2685.919,"body":"would probably see like effects"},{"startTime":2683.111,"endTime":2685.919,"body":"of an industry that like don't"},{"startTime":2685.919,"endTime":2688.359,"body":"seem to have happened, like, you"},{"startTime":2685.919,"endTime":2688.359,"body":"know, improvements in"},{"startTime":2688.359,"endTime":2690.018,"body":"superconducting and things like"},{"startTime":2688.359,"endTime":2690.018,"body":"that."},{"startTime":2690.423,"endTime":2690.683,"body":"Deirdre - Yep."},{"startTime":2691.719,"endTime":2694.328,"body":"David - Um, but speaking of"},{"startTime":2691.719,"endTime":2694.328,"body":"building quantum computers, do"},{"startTime":2694.328,"endTime":2696.206,"body":"you want— should we talk about"},{"startTime":2694.328,"endTime":2696.206,"body":"ECDSA.fail?"},{"startTime":2697.526,"endTime":2698.072,"body":"Deirdre - Oh my goodness."},{"startTime":2698.12,"endTime":2699.178,"body":"David - I love a good.fail"},{"startTime":2698.12,"endTime":2699.178,"body":"domain."},{"startTime":2699.692,"endTime":2699.932,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":2700.173,"endTime":2704.351,"body":"Um, yeah, that's good before,"},{"startTime":2700.173,"endTime":2704.351,"body":"uh, we, yeah, you get the gist"},{"startTime":2704.351,"endTime":2705.98,"body":"of the rest of the CEO."},{"startTime":2706.06,"endTime":2708.657,"body":"They're actually kind of like"},{"startTime":2706.06,"endTime":2708.657,"body":"trying to tell people to do"},{"startTime":2708.657,"endTime":2711.209,"body":"stuff regarding quantum"},{"startTime":2708.657,"endTime":2711.209,"body":"computing, which is pretty cool."},{"startTime":2712.043,"endTime":2714.193,"body":"Um, we'll see where that goes."},{"startTime":2714.93,"endTime":2719.498,"body":"Um, so we, we discussed how, um,"},{"startTime":2714.93,"endTime":2719.498,"body":"there were published, uh,"},{"startTime":2719.498,"endTime":2723.746,"body":"improvements, uh, to attacking"},{"startTime":2719.498,"endTime":2723.746,"body":"Elliptic curve discrete"},{"startTime":2723.746,"endTime":2728.475,"body":"logarithm problem, uh, with"},{"startTime":2723.746,"endTime":2728.475,"body":"quantum attack algorithms, which"},{"startTime":2728.475,"endTime":2732.883,"body":"are basically like iterations"},{"startTime":2728.475,"endTime":2732.883,"body":"around Shor's algorithm or"},{"startTime":2732.883,"endTime":2737.291,"body":"improving parts of some of these"},{"startTime":2732.883,"endTime":2737.291,"body":"like broad class attack"},{"startTime":2737.291,"endTime":2738.175,"body":"algorithms."},{"startTime":2738.592,"endTime":2742.881,"body":"And specifically, the Google,"},{"startTime":2738.592,"endTime":2742.881,"body":"uh, Google folks published a"},{"startTime":2742.881,"endTime":2747.321,"body":"paper that claimed they had a"},{"startTime":2742.881,"endTime":2747.321,"body":"quantum attack circuit for one"},{"startTime":2747.321,"endTime":2751.836,"body":"of the, uh, slowest parts of,"},{"startTime":2747.321,"endTime":2751.836,"body":"uh, running Shor's algorithm to"},{"startTime":2751.836,"endTime":2755.523,"body":"attack, uh, this discrete—"},{"startTime":2751.836,"endTime":2755.523,"body":"elliptic curve discrete"},{"startTime":2755.523,"endTime":2759.812,"body":"logarithm problem, which I think"},{"startTime":2755.523,"endTime":2759.812,"body":"it was literally like the"},{"startTime":2759.812,"endTime":2764.176,"body":"elliptic curve point operations"},{"startTime":2759.812,"endTime":2764.176,"body":"itself, which is like funny"},{"startTime":2764.176,"endTime":2766.662,"body":"because that's the classical"},{"startTime":2764.176,"endTime":2766.662,"body":"part."},{"startTime":2767.175,"endTime":2770.742,"body":"And it turns out running it on"},{"startTime":2767.175,"endTime":2770.742,"body":"the quantum computer is actually"},{"startTime":2770.742,"endTime":2774.194,"body":"kind of like the slow bottleneck"},{"startTime":2770.742,"endTime":2774.194,"body":"of using Shor's algorithm to"},{"startTime":2774.194,"endTime":2777.588,"body":"attack the thing, to find that"},{"startTime":2774.194,"endTime":2777.588,"body":"like the periodicity of your,"},{"startTime":2777.588,"endTime":2780.581,"body":"you know, elliptic curve group"},{"startTime":2777.588,"endTime":2780.581,"body":"or whatever it may be."},{"startTime":2781.206,"endTime":2784.677,"body":"Um, so they claim— they"},{"startTime":2781.206,"endTime":2784.677,"body":"published a paper that claimed"},{"startTime":2784.677,"endTime":2788.738,"body":"that they were able to do this"},{"startTime":2784.677,"endTime":2788.738,"body":"in, you know, n million Toffoli—"},{"startTime":2788.738,"endTime":2792.602,"body":"I think it was like a million"},{"startTime":2788.738,"endTime":2792.602,"body":"and change Toffoli, um, gates,"},{"startTime":2792.602,"endTime":2796.466,"body":"which is like a way to measure"},{"startTime":2792.602,"endTime":2796.466,"body":"the circuit depth of the, uh,"},{"startTime":2796.466,"endTime":2799.679,"body":"quantum circuit that you're"},{"startTime":2796.466,"endTime":2799.679,"body":"actually going to use."},{"startTime":2799.743,"endTime":2803.114,"body":"It's kind of like measuring the"},{"startTime":2799.743,"endTime":2803.114,"body":"number of multiplies or divides"},{"startTime":2803.114,"endTime":2806.267,"body":"or whatever you might have in a"},{"startTime":2803.114,"endTime":2806.267,"body":"certain attack algorithm or"},{"startTime":2806.267,"endTime":2808.987,"body":"another, another algorithm on a"},{"startTime":2806.267,"endTime":2808.987,"body":"classical computer."},{"startTime":2809.083,"endTime":2811.247,"body":"It's just a way to kind of like"},{"startTime":2809.083,"endTime":2811.247,"body":"measure."},{"startTime":2811.808,"endTime":2816.298,"body":"And then, um, I think they"},{"startTime":2811.808,"endTime":2816.298,"body":"claimed that they needed like,"},{"startTime":2816.298,"endTime":2820.948,"body":"you know, a 1024, some, some"},{"startTime":2816.298,"endTime":2820.948,"body":"small number of logical qubits"},{"startTime":2820.948,"endTime":2821.911,"body":"or whatever."},{"startTime":2822.472,"endTime":2825.575,"body":"Not— they didn't, they didn't"},{"startTime":2822.472,"endTime":2825.575,"body":"require like 10 million or a"},{"startTime":2825.575,"endTime":2827.427,"body":"million logical qubits to run"},{"startTime":2825.575,"endTime":2827.427,"body":"this."},{"startTime":2827.539,"endTime":2830.233,"body":"It was some, some small number"},{"startTime":2827.539,"endTime":2830.233,"body":"or something like that."},{"startTime":2831.131,"endTime":2834.643,"body":"Um, but they did not publish the"},{"startTime":2831.131,"endTime":2834.643,"body":"circuit."},{"startTime":2835.236,"endTime":2839.521,"body":"They published a zero-knowledge"},{"startTime":2835.236,"endTime":2839.521,"body":"proof of the circuit statement"},{"startTime":2839.521,"endTime":2843.665,"body":"and they published the proof and"},{"startTime":2839.521,"endTime":2843.665,"body":"they published their claims"},{"startTime":2843.665,"endTime":2847.88,"body":"about the size and the speed"},{"startTime":2843.665,"endTime":2847.88,"body":"that this should take to attack,"},{"startTime":2847.88,"endTime":2852.024,"body":"you know, elliptic curve, uh,"},{"startTime":2847.88,"endTime":2852.024,"body":"sorry, uh, elliptic curve DSA,"},{"startTime":2852.024,"endTime":2854.766,"body":"uh, algorithm, uh, based on"},{"startTime":2852.024,"endTime":2854.766,"body":"P-256 curve."},{"startTime":2855.055,"endTime":2855.151,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2855.537,"endTime":2856.035,"body":"Um, yeah."},{"startTime":2856.131,"endTime":2861.794,"body":"David - The Google publication"},{"startTime":2856.131,"endTime":2861.794,"body":"was 2.1 million gates and 1,425"},{"startTime":2861.794,"endTime":2862.444,"body":"qubits."},{"startTime":2862.878,"endTime":2863.103,"body":"Deirdre - Nice."},{"startTime":2863.248,"endTime":2863.842,"body":"I was pretty close."},{"startTime":2863.89,"endTime":2864.918,"body":"David - In March, late March."},{"startTime":2866.404,"endTime":2867.031,"body":"Deirdre - 2024."},{"startTime":2867.112,"endTime":2868.029,"body":"David - Um, excuse me, 2026."},{"startTime":2868.769,"endTime":2873.283,"body":"Deirdre - And this, this was"},{"startTime":2868.769,"endTime":2873.283,"body":"kind of interesting because two"},{"startTime":2873.283,"endTime":2877.568,"body":"people have been following"},{"startTime":2873.283,"endTime":2877.568,"body":"quantum attack algorithms and,"},{"startTime":2877.568,"endTime":2881.853,"body":"and sort of like, this is part"},{"startTime":2877.568,"endTime":2881.853,"body":"of a, um, lineage of like,"},{"startTime":2881.853,"endTime":2886.061,"body":"here's our improvement and"},{"startTime":2881.853,"endTime":2886.061,"body":"here's like our tweak on how,"},{"startTime":2886.061,"endTime":2890.575,"body":"how many resources, how fast can"},{"startTime":2886.061,"endTime":2890.575,"body":"we get some of these attack"},{"startTime":2890.575,"endTime":2891.878,"body":"algorithms to be."},{"startTime":2892.542,"endTime":2894.818,"body":"Even though we don't have a"},{"startTime":2892.542,"endTime":2894.818,"body":"quantum computer yet to really,"},{"startTime":2894.818,"endTime":2895.604,"body":"you know, test them."},{"startTime":2895.748,"endTime":2897.496,"body":"Like, this is— I'm going to"},{"startTime":2895.748,"endTime":2897.496,"body":"write it up or whatever."},{"startTime":2898.057,"endTime":2902.128,"body":"But this was new in that the"},{"startTime":2898.057,"endTime":2902.128,"body":"authors claimed that their"},{"startTime":2902.128,"endTime":2904.918,"body":"results were too dangerous to"},{"startTime":2902.128,"endTime":2904.918,"body":"publish."},{"startTime":2905.543,"endTime":2909.188,"body":"So that is why they published a"},{"startTime":2905.543,"endTime":2909.188,"body":"zero-knowledge proof of them,"},{"startTime":2909.188,"endTime":2912.773,"body":"and they directly compared it"},{"startTime":2909.188,"endTime":2912.773,"body":"to, um, uh, to— I think it was"},{"startTime":2912.773,"endTime":2915.691,"body":"literally like the Manhattan"},{"startTime":2912.773,"endTime":2915.691,"body":"Project or whatever."},{"startTime":2915.932,"endTime":2919.029,"body":"Like, they didn't want to, like,"},{"startTime":2915.932,"endTime":2919.029,"body":"publish the ingredient, like,"},{"startTime":2919.029,"endTime":2921.872,"body":"the specific ingredients of how"},{"startTime":2919.029,"endTime":2921.872,"body":"to make an atomic bomb or"},{"startTime":2921.872,"endTime":2922.889,"body":"something like that."},{"startTime":2923.258,"endTime":2927.488,"body":"And it's just like, uh, like, I"},{"startTime":2923.258,"endTime":2927.488,"body":"don't know, like, we can't run"},{"startTime":2927.488,"endTime":2928.529,"body":"it yet, can we?"},{"startTime":2928.625,"endTime":2931.325,"body":"Like, it's gonna be several"},{"startTime":2928.625,"endTime":2931.325,"body":"years until we can— until we can"},{"startTime":2931.325,"endTime":2931.646,"body":"run it."},{"startTime":2932.16,"endTime":2933.592,"body":"So like, all right, whatever."},{"startTime":2934.494,"endTime":2935.573,"body":"But that's not the funny part."},{"startTime":2935.863,"endTime":2939.018,"body":"That, that was an interesting"},{"startTime":2935.863,"endTime":2939.018,"body":"kind of— it, it caused a little"},{"startTime":2939.018,"endTime":2942.12,"body":"bit of a debate of like, oh my"},{"startTime":2939.018,"endTime":2942.12,"body":"goodness, if we make any more"},{"startTime":2942.12,"endTime":2944.802,"body":"improvements of attack"},{"startTime":2942.12,"endTime":2944.802,"body":"algorithms, do we have to— is"},{"startTime":2944.802,"endTime":2946.539,"body":"this the way we disclose them"},{"startTime":2944.802,"endTime":2946.539,"body":"now?"},{"startTime":2946.83,"endTime":2948.913,"body":"Is this a new form of"},{"startTime":2946.83,"endTime":2948.913,"body":"responsible disclosure?"},{"startTime":2949.01,"endTime":2950.076,"body":"Like, blah, blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":2951.454,"endTime":2952.24,"body":"That didn't matter."},{"startTime":2952.497,"endTime":2956.023,"body":"People saw this result and"},{"startTime":2952.497,"endTime":2956.023,"body":"they're like, ooh, you're trying"},{"startTime":2956.023,"endTime":2958.882,"body":"to attack the, the signing"},{"startTime":2956.023,"endTime":2958.882,"body":"algorithm of Bitcoin."},{"startTime":2959.475,"endTime":2962.331,"body":"Hmm, let's try if we can like"},{"startTime":2959.475,"endTime":2962.331,"body":"really run this down."},{"startTime":2962.507,"endTime":2967.187,"body":"And someone set up ECDSA.fail,"},{"startTime":2962.507,"endTime":2967.187,"body":"and they were basically— they"},{"startTime":2967.187,"endTime":2972.026,"body":"basically started crowdsourcing,"},{"startTime":2967.187,"endTime":2972.026,"body":"um, attempts to improve this,"},{"startTime":2972.026,"endTime":2976.785,"body":"uh, theoretical construction,"},{"startTime":2972.026,"endTime":2976.785,"body":"uh, you know, this construction"},{"startTime":2976.785,"endTime":2981.703,"body":"published by Google, but without"},{"startTime":2976.785,"endTime":2981.703,"body":"publishing the actual circuit,"},{"startTime":2981.703,"endTime":2986.383,"body":"and tried to beat their claimed,"},{"startTime":2981.703,"endTime":2986.383,"body":"um, uh, costs and speed and"},{"startTime":2986.383,"endTime":2988.13,"body":"resource requirements."},{"startTime":2988.803,"endTime":2992.992,"body":"And people were using ChatGPT"},{"startTime":2988.803,"endTime":2992.992,"body":"and Claude and Opus and all this"},{"startTime":2992.992,"endTime":2997.112,"body":"stuff to try and incrementally"},{"startTime":2992.992,"endTime":2997.112,"body":"try to improve and improve and"},{"startTime":2997.112,"endTime":2999.379,"body":"improve and improve and submit"},{"startTime":2997.112,"endTime":2999.379,"body":"it."},{"startTime":2999.876,"endTime":3003.564,"body":"And the zero-knowledge proof"},{"startTime":2999.876,"endTime":3003.564,"body":"turned out to be a great way to"},{"startTime":3003.564,"endTime":3006.752,"body":"like cross-test your results or"},{"startTime":3003.564,"endTime":3006.752,"body":"something like that."},{"startTime":3007.008,"endTime":3008.419,"body":"I think that's what it was."},{"startTime":3009.076,"endTime":3010.535,"body":"One, there was also a bug in it."},{"startTime":3010.935,"endTime":3013.534,"body":"The Trail of Bits people were"},{"startTime":3010.935,"endTime":3013.534,"body":"able to find that, like, you,"},{"startTime":3013.534,"endTime":3016.133,"body":"they were able to get it to"},{"startTime":3013.534,"endTime":3016.133,"body":"validate things that it was not"},{"startTime":3016.133,"endTime":3017.075,"body":"supposed to validate."},{"startTime":3017.508,"endTime":3018.197,"body":"Was that it?"},{"startTime":3018.63,"endTime":3021.318,"body":"And that, that's what they were"},{"startTime":3018.63,"endTime":3021.318,"body":"using to, to validate other"},{"startTime":3021.318,"endTime":3021.643,"body":"things."},{"startTime":3022.317,"endTime":3022.782,"body":"I don't remember."},{"startTime":3022.862,"endTime":3026.132,"body":"David - Um, no, they're, they're"},{"startTime":3022.862,"endTime":3026.132,"body":"using the, just the same, like,"},{"startTime":3026.132,"endTime":3029.298,"body":"sim circuit simulators that, um,"},{"startTime":3026.132,"endTime":3029.298,"body":"were in the Google paper, but"},{"startTime":3029.298,"endTime":3032.412,"body":"then like Uh, the Google paper"},{"startTime":3029.298,"endTime":3032.412,"body":"didn't include like the actual"},{"startTime":3032.412,"endTime":3035.114,"body":"circuit that just had like a"},{"startTime":3032.412,"endTime":3035.114,"body":"proof about the circuit."},{"startTime":3035.612,"endTime":3036.094,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3036.752,"endTime":3038.854,"body":"But like the circuit simulator"},{"startTime":3036.752,"endTime":3038.854,"body":"is basically just code."},{"startTime":3038.918,"endTime":3040.507,"body":"And so you can have a coding"},{"startTime":3038.918,"endTime":3040.507,"body":"agent, you know?"},{"startTime":3040.588,"endTime":3040.668,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":3040.748,"endTime":3041.165,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3041.23,"endTime":3041.952,"body":"That was, that was it."},{"startTime":3042.112,"endTime":3043.926,"body":"David - Optimize this circuit,"},{"startTime":3042.112,"endTime":3043.926,"body":"make no mistakes."},{"startTime":3044.375,"endTime":3044.761,"body":"Deirdre - Yep."},{"startTime":3045.403,"endTime":3047.874,"body":"And it took 3 days."},{"startTime":3048.147,"endTime":3050.843,"body":"Let me see if I can find, if I"},{"startTime":3048.147,"endTime":3050.843,"body":"can cross-reference."},{"startTime":3050.956,"endTime":3056.503,"body":"I think this was the 30th and"},{"startTime":3050.956,"endTime":3056.503,"body":"the first result that beat it"},{"startTime":3056.503,"endTime":3057.747,"body":"was June 2nd."},{"startTime":3057.796,"endTime":3061.55,"body":"So I think it was 3-ish days"},{"startTime":3057.796,"endTime":3061.55,"body":"before the entire point of this"},{"startTime":3061.55,"endTime":3065.114,"body":"thing is too dangerous to"},{"startTime":3061.55,"endTime":3065.114,"body":"publish, so we're just going to"},{"startTime":3065.114,"endTime":3069.059,"body":"publish a zero-knowledge proof"},{"startTime":3065.114,"endTime":3069.059,"body":"on it, which is completely blown"},{"startTime":3069.059,"endTime":3072.686,"body":"out of the water by people"},{"startTime":3069.059,"endTime":3072.686,"body":"crowdsourcing competing results"},{"startTime":3072.686,"endTime":3073.707,"body":"on the internet."},{"startTime":3074.093,"endTime":3075.898,"body":"And they're still going, and"},{"startTime":3074.093,"endTime":3075.898,"body":"they've been able to drive it"},{"startTime":3075.898,"endTime":3076.057,"body":"down."},{"startTime":3078.46,"endTime":3084.343,"body":"It's like not quite twice as"},{"startTime":3078.46,"endTime":3084.343,"body":"fast or twice as efficient in"},{"startTime":3084.343,"endTime":3088.576,"body":"terms of gates as the Google,"},{"startTime":3084.343,"endTime":3088.576,"body":"uh, results."},{"startTime":3089.056,"endTime":3095.216,"body":"But it's very— it— people have"},{"startTime":3089.056,"endTime":3095.216,"body":"been able to get a very good,"},{"startTime":3095.216,"endTime":3101.376,"body":"um, much better, like 45% less"},{"startTime":3095.216,"endTime":3101.376,"body":"gates and like, yeah, uh, 25%"},{"startTime":3101.376,"endTime":3102.003,"body":"less—."},{"startTime":3102.532,"endTime":3107.568,"body":"David - Or excuse me, 25% or 30%"},{"startTime":3102.532,"endTime":3107.568,"body":"less gates and like 45% less"},{"startTime":3107.568,"endTime":3108.156,"body":"qubits."},{"startTime":3108.605,"endTime":3108.861,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3109.648,"endTime":3112.329,"body":"Deirdre - And, uh, uh, it's,"},{"startTime":3109.648,"endTime":3112.329,"body":"it's a lot of fun."},{"startTime":3112.635,"endTime":3114.048,"body":"It, it's a, it's a lot of fun."},{"startTime":3114.497,"endTime":3117.152,"body":"David - So, um, power of telling"},{"startTime":3114.497,"endTime":3117.152,"body":"people, it's, it's telling"},{"startTime":3117.152,"endTime":3119.716,"body":"people that like something can"},{"startTime":3117.152,"endTime":3119.716,"body":"be done and then trying to"},{"startTime":3119.716,"endTime":3120.358,"body":"figure it out."},{"startTime":3120.422,"endTime":3123.989,"body":"Like, uh, when, when DROWN"},{"startTime":3120.422,"endTime":3123.989,"body":"happened, like the way we got"},{"startTime":3123.989,"endTime":3127.556,"body":"involved at Michigan was we"},{"startTime":3123.989,"endTime":3127.556,"body":"heard there was a rumor that"},{"startTime":3127.556,"endTime":3130.217,"body":"like there was something wrong"},{"startTime":3127.556,"endTime":3130.217,"body":"with SSLv2."},{"startTime":3130.539,"endTime":3133.552,"body":"And so because we heard that,"},{"startTime":3130.539,"endTime":3133.552,"body":"myself and my advisor like"},{"startTime":3133.552,"endTime":3136.565,"body":"opened up the OpenSSL source"},{"startTime":3133.552,"endTime":3136.565,"body":"code and just looked at the"},{"startTime":3136.565,"endTime":3139.579,"body":"SSLv2 handshake for a while,"},{"startTime":3136.565,"endTime":3139.579,"body":"like on a projector screen."},{"startTime":3139.95,"endTime":3143.64,"body":"And then we were like, ah, that"},{"startTime":3139.95,"endTime":3143.64,"body":"pointer's wrong after a while."},{"startTime":3143.64,"endTime":3144.7,"body":"And that was like our"},{"startTime":3143.64,"endTime":3144.7,"body":"contribution."},{"startTime":3145.26,"endTime":3146.942,"body":"That turned out a bunch of"},{"startTime":3145.26,"endTime":3146.942,"body":"people much smarter than us had"},{"startTime":3146.942,"endTime":3148.33,"body":"come up with like a"},{"startTime":3146.942,"endTime":3148.33,"body":"cryptographic vulnerability."},{"startTime":3148.58,"endTime":3150.29,"body":"And we were just like, no, that"},{"startTime":3148.58,"endTime":3150.29,"body":"pointer's wrong."},{"startTime":3151.18,"endTime":3153.795,"body":"And those two combined are what"},{"startTime":3151.18,"endTime":3153.795,"body":"like led to the fan— the"},{"startTime":3153.795,"endTime":3155.08,"body":"fanciest version of Ground."},{"startTime":3155.08,"endTime":3157.337,"body":"But like the only reason that we"},{"startTime":3155.08,"endTime":3157.337,"body":"thought to look there was"},{"startTime":3157.337,"endTime":3159.555,"body":"someone said, well, someone"},{"startTime":3157.337,"endTime":3159.555,"body":"said, the rumor was there was"},{"startTime":3159.555,"endTime":3160.19,"body":"something there."},{"startTime":3160.98,"endTime":3161.62,"body":"Same with this."},{"startTime":3161.62,"endTime":3164.549,"body":"Once you know something can be"},{"startTime":3161.62,"endTime":3164.549,"body":"beaten, well, let's go, let's go"},{"startTime":3164.549,"endTime":3164.88,"body":"try it."},{"startTime":3164.88,"endTime":3165.2,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":3165.2,"endTime":3167.47,"body":"David - Or just the same as"},{"startTime":3165.2,"endTime":3167.47,"body":"like, uh, Nicholas Carlini, you"},{"startTime":3167.47,"endTime":3169.78,"body":"know, saying the vulnerability"},{"startTime":3167.47,"endTime":3169.78,"body":"is probably in this function."},{"startTime":3170.792,"endTime":3170.969,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3171.033,"endTime":3171.642,"body":"Go, go find it."},{"startTime":3171.899,"endTime":3173.005,"body":"No, it's in this function."},{"startTime":3173.182,"endTime":3174.753,"body":"Like, once you know the"},{"startTime":3173.182,"endTime":3174.753,"body":"vulnerability is in the"},{"startTime":3174.753,"endTime":3175.812,"body":"function, then you can find it."},{"startTime":3175.908,"endTime":3178.137,"body":"But yeah, otherwise you'd never"},{"startTime":3175.908,"endTime":3178.137,"body":"find it."},{"startTime":3179.131,"endTime":3180.093,"body":"Deirdre - Gosh, I love it."},{"startTime":3180.318,"endTime":3182.274,"body":"Um, I'm amused."},{"startTime":3182.98,"endTime":3187.25,"body":"I kind of hope that, like, this"},{"startTime":3182.98,"endTime":3187.25,"body":"is, this is a great way to get"},{"startTime":3187.25,"endTime":3188.16,"body":"improvements."},{"startTime":3188.513,"endTime":3190.726,"body":"Like, their attack algorithms,"},{"startTime":3188.513,"endTime":3190.726,"body":"like, okay, but like, that's"},{"startTime":3190.726,"endTime":3192.939,"body":"how, that's how defenses get"},{"startTime":3190.726,"endTime":3192.939,"body":"better because the attacks get"},{"startTime":3192.939,"endTime":3194.542,"body":"better and then we get better at"},{"startTime":3192.939,"endTime":3194.542,"body":"defending."},{"startTime":3194.607,"endTime":3196.611,"body":"So that means you migrate off of"},{"startTime":3194.607,"endTime":3196.611,"body":"ECDSA."},{"startTime":3196.868,"endTime":3199.971,"body":"David - Spoiler alert, but, um,"},{"startTime":3196.868,"endTime":3199.971,"body":"or, you know, a little culture"},{"startTime":3199.971,"endTime":3203.074,"body":"clash between the physicists and"},{"startTime":3199.971,"endTime":3203.074,"body":"the software security people."},{"startTime":3203.41,"endTime":3203.731,"body":"Deirdre - Yes."},{"startTime":3204.132,"endTime":3207.732,"body":"Um, that, that was a thing that"},{"startTime":3204.132,"endTime":3207.732,"body":"may not be obvious from just"},{"startTime":3207.732,"endTime":3211.026,"body":"looking at the papers and the"},{"startTime":3207.732,"endTime":3211.026,"body":"blog posts was that those"},{"startTime":3211.026,"endTime":3214.259,"body":"results for that attack"},{"startTime":3211.026,"endTime":3214.259,"body":"algorithm actually came out of"},{"startTime":3214.259,"endTime":3217.675,"body":"like a different part of Google"},{"startTime":3214.259,"endTime":3217.675,"body":"than say cryptography and"},{"startTime":3217.675,"endTime":3218.227,"body":"security."},{"startTime":3218.885,"endTime":3222.2,"body":"And only the cryptography and"},{"startTime":3218.885,"endTime":3222.2,"body":"security people found out about"},{"startTime":3222.2,"endTime":3225.57,"body":"this thing that was coming, like"},{"startTime":3222.2,"endTime":3225.57,"body":"very last minute, as far as I"},{"startTime":3225.57,"endTime":3225.847,"body":"know."},{"startTime":3226.746,"endTime":3228.336,"body":"And like, they're just like,"},{"startTime":3226.746,"endTime":3228.336,"body":"what?"},{"startTime":3228.448,"endTime":3229.428,"body":"Like, wait, what?"},{"startTime":3229.733,"endTime":3233.154,"body":"Like, what do you— and then it"},{"startTime":3229.733,"endTime":3233.154,"body":"was a whole negotiation of"},{"startTime":3233.154,"endTime":3235.048,"body":"trying to get it out of Google."},{"startTime":3235.577,"endTime":3238.59,"body":"There's no NSA or US government"},{"startTime":3235.577,"endTime":3238.59,"body":"meddling, being like, no, no,"},{"startTime":3238.59,"endTime":3240.7,"body":"you can't publish this, it's too"},{"startTime":3238.59,"endTime":3240.7,"body":"dangerous."},{"startTime":3240.796,"endTime":3244.28,"body":"Like, none of that, as far as—"},{"startTime":3240.796,"endTime":3244.28,"body":"that's everything I've learned."},{"startTime":3244.344,"endTime":3248.387,"body":"It's just like people, these"},{"startTime":3244.344,"endTime":3248.387,"body":"physicists spooked themselves"},{"startTime":3248.387,"endTime":3252.572,"body":"And instead of working with"},{"startTime":3248.387,"endTime":3252.572,"body":"security people and cryptography"},{"startTime":3252.572,"endTime":3256.119,"body":"people who are used to"},{"startTime":3252.572,"endTime":3256.119,"body":"publishing, you know, things"},{"startTime":3256.119,"endTime":3260.091,"body":"that affect security postures"},{"startTime":3256.119,"endTime":3260.091,"body":"out in the world, they just"},{"startTime":3260.091,"endTime":3261.441,"body":"spooked themselves."},{"startTime":3261.489,"endTime":3262.996,"body":"They said, I don't know if we"},{"startTime":3261.489,"endTime":3262.996,"body":"should publish this."},{"startTime":3263.252,"endTime":3265.804,"body":"Oh, let's go get a"},{"startTime":3263.252,"endTime":3265.804,"body":"zero-knowledge proof to slap on"},{"startTime":3265.804,"endTime":3265.961,"body":"it."},{"startTime":3266.058,"endTime":3267.789,"body":"That, that'll let us get it out"},{"startTime":3266.058,"endTime":3267.789,"body":"the door."},{"startTime":3268.943,"endTime":3271.463,"body":"David - So, um, yeah, I mean,"},{"startTime":3268.943,"endTime":3271.463,"body":"Scott Aaronson even had a blog"},{"startTime":3271.463,"endTime":3274.111,"body":"post kind of about this where he"},{"startTime":3271.463,"endTime":3274.111,"body":"was like, you know, maybe like"},{"startTime":3274.111,"endTime":3276.461,"body":"we shouldn't publish some of"},{"startTime":3274.111,"endTime":3276.461,"body":"this stuff cuz we're close."},{"startTime":3276.638,"endTime":3279.155,"body":"And then he was like, Nadia"},{"startTime":3276.638,"endTime":3279.155,"body":"Henninger talked me out of it on"},{"startTime":3279.155,"endTime":3279.539,"body":"Facebook."},{"startTime":3279.619,"endTime":3280.677,"body":"And I thought that was"},{"startTime":3279.619,"endTime":3280.677,"body":"interesting."},{"startTime":3280.71,"endTime":3282.936,"body":"Because I didn't realize Nadia"},{"startTime":3280.71,"endTime":3282.936,"body":"was still on Facebook."},{"startTime":3283.427,"endTime":3284.148,"body":"Deirdre - Oh my goodness."},{"startTime":3285.298,"endTime":3286.495,"body":"I, I didn't—."},{"startTime":3286.495,"endTime":3288.669,"body":"David - But you know, thank you"},{"startTime":3286.495,"endTime":3288.669,"body":"to Nadia for keeping your"},{"startTime":3288.669,"endTime":3290.92,"body":"Facebook so that you can like"},{"startTime":3288.669,"endTime":3290.92,"body":"tell Scott Aaronson when he's"},{"startTime":3290.92,"endTime":3291.154,"body":"wrong."},{"startTime":3291.656,"endTime":3291.785,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3292.464,"endTime":3296.01,"body":"Deirdre - Uh, thank you very"},{"startTime":3292.464,"endTime":3296.01,"body":"much because I'm not going on"},{"startTime":3296.01,"endTime":3296.57,"body":"Facebook."},{"startTime":3298.062,"endTime":3302.405,"body":"And what I wonder— oh, I wonder,"},{"startTime":3298.062,"endTime":3302.405,"body":"I think his blog posts are, or"},{"startTime":3302.405,"endTime":3306.328,"body":"the, the comment section are,"},{"startTime":3302.405,"endTime":3306.328,"body":"are cross-synchronized, uh,"},{"startTime":3306.328,"endTime":3307.73,"body":"with, with Facebook."},{"startTime":3307.875,"endTime":3308.533,"body":"That might be why."},{"startTime":3308.758,"endTime":3309.079,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":3309.143,"endTime":3309.464,"body":"David - I don't know."},{"startTime":3309.641,"endTime":3311.52,"body":"Deirdre - Well, I haven't logged"},{"startTime":3309.641,"endTime":3311.52,"body":"into Facebook in many years."},{"startTime":3311.616,"endTime":3314.324,"body":"David - Thank you to Nadia"},{"startTime":3311.616,"endTime":3314.324,"body":"Henninger for discussing this"},{"startTime":3314.324,"endTime":3315.309,"body":"with Scott Aaronson."},{"startTime":3315.742,"endTime":3315.999,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah."},{"startTime":3316.465,"endTime":3317.942,"body":"But yeah, easy to say it's fun."},{"startTime":3318.295,"endTime":3321.425,"body":"Uh, go, go fork the, the circuit"},{"startTime":3318.295,"endTime":3321.425,"body":"simulator and see if you can do"},{"startTime":3321.425,"endTime":3324.107,"body":"better with your favorite, uh,"},{"startTime":3321.425,"endTime":3324.107,"body":"on your own or with your"},{"startTime":3324.107,"endTime":3326.839,"body":"favorite, uh, large language"},{"startTime":3324.107,"endTime":3326.839,"body":"model or something, because"},{"startTime":3326.839,"endTime":3328.331,"body":"apparently they're good at it."},{"startTime":3329.005,"endTime":3329.423,"body":"Seems fun."},{"startTime":3330.515,"endTime":3330.755,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":3331.43,"endTime":3332.249,"body":"Did we miss anything?"},{"startTime":3334.61,"endTime":3337.381,"body":"David - I think that's enough,"},{"startTime":3334.61,"endTime":3337.381,"body":"uh, executive orders for 10 PM"},{"startTime":3337.381,"endTime":3337.982,"body":"on a Tuesday."},{"startTime":3338.384,"endTime":3341.579,"body":"Deirdre - Yeah, I don't want to"},{"startTime":3338.384,"endTime":3341.579,"body":"discover any new, uh, Trump EOs"},{"startTime":3341.579,"endTime":3344.054,"body":"that involve quantum or"},{"startTime":3341.579,"endTime":3344.054,"body":"cryptography or security."},{"startTime":3344.792,"endTime":3345.82,"body":"Um, cool."},{"startTime":3346.238,"endTime":3347.507,"body":"Yay, emergency pod done."},{"startTime":3348.197,"endTime":3351.069,"body":"Security cryptography whatever"},{"startTime":3348.197,"endTime":3351.069,"body":"is a side project from Deirdre"},{"startTime":3351.069,"endTime":3353.032,"body":"Connolly, Thomas Ptacek, and"},{"startTime":3351.069,"endTime":3353.032,"body":"David Adrian."},{"startTime":3353.321,"endTime":3354.413,"body":"Our editor is Nettie Smith."},{"startTime":3354.991,"endTime":3356.421,"body":"You can't— oh my God, I need—."},{"startTime":3356.774,"endTime":3360.308,"body":"David - Fuck, is our editor"},{"startTime":3356.774,"endTime":3360.308,"body":"Nettie Smith?"},{"startTime":3360.372,"endTime":3361.159,"body":"Like, we keep editing ours."},{"startTime":3361.736,"endTime":3363.966,"body":"Deirdre - Uh, yeah, I need the"},{"startTime":3361.736,"endTime":3363.966,"body":"fucking—."},{"startTime":3363.998,"endTime":3365.409,"body":"David - I need to find this"},{"startTime":3363.998,"endTime":3365.409,"body":"online."},{"startTime":3365.762,"endTime":3370.156,"body":"Yes, @tqbf, um, @durumcrustulum"},{"startTime":3365.762,"endTime":3370.156,"body":"or @dadrian."},{"startTime":3370.814,"endTime":3373.925,"body":"Yes, that's right, I ponied up"},{"startTime":3370.814,"endTime":3373.925,"body":"the money to change my handle."},{"startTime":3374.566,"endTime":3377.02,"body":"Deirdre - Oh, it's not David C."},{"startTime":3374.566,"endTime":3377.02,"body":"Adrian no more."},{"startTime":3377.87,"endTime":3381.45,"body":"David - All right, don't forget"},{"startTime":3377.87,"endTime":3381.45,"body":"to like us, rate us, smash that"},{"startTime":3381.45,"endTime":3384.972,"body":"like and subscribe, follow us on"},{"startTime":3381.45,"endTime":3384.972,"body":"whatever preferred format you"},{"startTime":3384.972,"endTime":3386.995,"body":"get your podcasts or video"},{"startTime":3384.972,"endTime":3386.995,"body":"podcasts."},{"startTime":3387.561,"endTime":3387.722,"body":"Deirdre - Yes."},{"startTime":3387.803,"endTime":3389.566,"body":"David - And thank you for"},{"startTime":3387.803,"endTime":3389.566,"body":"listening."},{"startTime":3390.002,"endTime":3392.026,"body":"Deirdre - And also you can get"},{"startTime":3390.002,"endTime":3392.026,"body":"merch at merch dot"},{"startTime":3392.026,"endTime":3393.544,"body":"securitycryptographywhatever dot"},{"startTime":3392.026,"endTime":3393.544,"body":"com."},{"startTime":3393.722,"endTime":3394.659,"body":"Thank you for listening."}]}