SPEAKER_03 0:07

Hello everyone. Welcome back to our Connection in Progress podcast. This podcast is about having real conversations that go beyond what happens on Sundays because life isn't pause when the servants end, and neither do the pressures that people carry. Today we're continuing our series, The Silent Battle Within, and we're talking about mental health and the silent battles that people face eternally. Today's episode is actually our second episode, and it's called The Pressure to Be Everything. Because a lot of people, especially women, life can feel like a constant pressure to just hold it all together and be everything for everyone and still somehow never fall behind. And um I think one of the biggest struggles that people deal with is trying to balance, you know, who they really are internally versus what people expect them to be. So we're joined again by Mr. Robert and Kia Hart from Living Hope, um, who work with this exact thing and offer lots of counseling service on mental health um across the whole board of mental health. And so before we begin, I would like to just open us up in prayer so the Lord can bless our conversation and we can just jump right into our second episode. Heavenly Father, Lord, thank you for this most wonderful and beautiful day. Thank you for another day of life that you've given us, Lord, to be able to do your kingdom work, Lord, and be able to gather under your name, Lord, and just be able to have a fire for you, Lord. And I pray for the Spirit to bless this conversation, Lord, and to enter us, Lord, and guide our conversation, Lord. And I want to lift up Mr. Robert and Keihart for taking the time to do this, Lord, and um, you know, the importance of talking about things that aren't always talked about, Lord. And I pray that, you know, whoever may be listening or tuning in for whatever reason that they may be, Lord, that you touch them, Lord, and that they get to experience you in such a different way. So thank you for this time, Lord, and bless these words and allow us all to be a shining light for your glory. And all this I pray in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. So, where does pressure come from? I think experience experiences pressure diff uh differently, but sometimes we don't even realize how much pressure we're carrying until we're totally exhausted. So I want to ask you, what do you think about your day-to-day life? Um, where do you feel the most pressure?

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Do you want to go first, babe? Okay. Um, gosh. Um, well, as the director of Living Hope, uh I feel a ton of pressure when I wake up in the morning and I'm going into work to make sure that, you know, we keep the doors open, that we actually, in fact, help people, that we actually point people to the Lord. Um, and then just the logistical things. So I feel tons of pressure with that. And then when I get home, then, you know, a lot of times I feel spent, uh, but it's not exactly fair to my wife and the and our daughter to say, well, I've just worked all day, so right. Just let me watch my TV show and let me eat my Cheetos and leave me alone. Um, that's not exactly fair. So I feel pressure there to say, okay, different work. Uh, now I need to come home and attend to family. Um, so I feel pressure on both of those ends.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

I broke it down to three categories. I feel pressure at work. Um, it's good pressure, but I just want to be effective. I want to be helpful. And that can weigh on me for sure. Pressure to be a good partner to Robert. And you also are good partner, thank you. You are too. And pressure to be a good mom. To mainly right now, it's my youngest daughter because she's the one that's home, but I still have running through my mind to make sure I'm reaching into my older kids' lives and make sure they still feel thought about and loved.

SPEAKER_03 4:07

You know, when really laid out like that, it can maybe even sound overwhelming, like that's kind of a lot. Um, right. And so where do you feel like most of your pressure comes from? Is it within yourself or from certain expectations of yourself, whether if it's because of work or the expectation of being a good parent? Um, where do you think the pressure comes more from?

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Uh I think as counselors, we I would be shocked if you surprised me with your answer right now, uh Kia. Um, but um I think a hundred percent it's internal. Yeah, I think, and I I give this example a lot of times to people just to say uh we often think that stress and pressure is external, but if that were true, then there we would all have the same experiences. I I use a car wreck as an example, right? If we uh wrap up this podcast um and we walk outside and there's a giant wreck right here on the road in front of us, we all three hear it and we see it, we experience it, um, we smell it. Uh like it it impacts each of us. There was screeching, broken glass, perhaps fire, maybe some people crying or screaming. There may or may not have been blood involved. We all go, wow, and then we part ways. And then we get back together a week from now, and one of us brings it up and say, My gosh, do you remember that car wreck? And one person may be like, Oh my gosh, I haven't slept since then. I can't get these sounds and these smells and this, these images out of my mind. And the other person says, Well, I've thought of it, but it just comes and goes. And the other person kind of looks at the other two and says, Wow, I had totally forgotten about it until just now when you brought it up. If it were about the external thing, we all would have come back and said the exact same things. It wasn't, it was about what happened inside of us. So when I think of stress and pressure, I think 100% it's inside. So I also have some biblical examples that we'll talk about later, I'm sure. But what do you think, Meg?

SPEAKER_02 6:29

I I completely agree with all that, and I love that example to think through of all the different, you know, ways that people would respond to that. It really brings forward a truth. The way I thought of it was outside becomes inside. So we have all these voices from our parents, our bosses, our teachers, our classmates, bullies from when we were little, friends, all of those outside voices, they become internalized. And so as it's internalized, the pressure becomes from the inside. But it may be very connected to what came from the outside originally. And so the challenge is to hold those internal voices now up to the truth of Christ in what we are and who we are and what we're responsible for and what we're not responsible for. And so learning some boundaries internally and externally can be really helpful with that. I think about learning what's mine and what's yours and what's God's, like always kind of assessing those three things when it comes to pressures that we're feeling. Maybe it's not even a pressure I need to take on. Maybe it is.

SPEAKER_03 7:49

You know, funny enough, I have a friend, um, and it's not to be a little pressure by any means, but you know, we have a quote that we've been telling each other, and I kind of I kind of started it, and it was just something funny, but it it sometimes is kind of true. But um, you know, he was telling me something that he was going through, and I was like, you know, it was weighing on him hard, and I was like, you know what? I think it's all in your head. Um, like I just don't think it's that deep. And I think you're carrying something that is not like that you're kind of carrying it for just no reason, you know, like God has you in this place, keep going, eyes forward, and you know, have faith that there's a bigger plan in play that you may not realize. And so now he's saying it back to me, and I was like, hey, that's that's not fair, you know? It's in your head, of course. It's it's in it's in my head, and so I wanted to follow up, you know, what are some expectations, specifically women, um, that they feel today that aren't always shared out loud, whether if it's you know, something that has come from like our own heads um or from other people that have placed upon them, what do you think um are some expectations that women feel aren't always said out loud?

SPEAKER_02 9:01

I was thinking before this episode that Robert, I think male therapists have such an advantage in actually being able to speak about what women think and feel because he's probably heard from thousands of women over the years. And so I'm I'm really glad he's here too, because I think he he hears a lot from women. The things that came from my mind, let's see. So you said some of the expectations that women feel that are not always said out loud. Um, the ex the expectation to be really efficient, get tons and tons and tons done, but make it look effortless. It should not look you should not look like it's really hard for you. Yeah, and I think that's tough. And that can be in home life, um, like all the relationships as well as the physical home. Um, it could be that I think I've heard a lot of women speak about they feel like they need to have a thriving career. Maybe um, you know, financially, that's needed in the family, but they need it, they also need to be really flexible in their hours to be able to meet all the familial needs as well. Um, and and just the need to be assertive at work, but not too assertive at work, just this balance that sometimes women feel uniquely, I think. Um, this may not be the most popular thing to say, but I hear it over and over, so I'm just gonna say it out loud. Sometimes there's still sexism in the workplace, and that's hard to talk about. Um, but it can be real, and sometimes, yeah, that's really tough. And uh also the pressure, I don't know. I don't think men feel this a lot, but to look beautiful that may sound a little bit petty, but I know it's very real for a lot of women. They they may even have gotten messages through a sermon or a teaching at a ladies' conference or something that says that's super important, you need to do that. And that's just so interesting to me that that's something that I think women uniquely worry about. And I think another one is to have endless patience if you're a mom, to have endless patience with kids. And that can be so trying, but there's this sense that well, it could be communicated that's what you were made for. So you should have endless patience for this. And there could be a lot of problems with that messaging sometimes. That so I don't know if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Well, and mine's a lot more simple, and it's a you have to go look it up on your own outside of here. But um, I'm not trying to make any kind of statement, good or bad, one way or the other, about this. But in a movie recently, the Barbie movie, there's a monologue by the mother who addresses this very issue, and she goes through a whole litany of it's the pressure to be like this, but also like this, which is an opposite. She just goes through a whole list of them. And I hear that from tons of women for sure, including my own wife sometimes. Um, and so that to me is a pretty good little comprehensive list of ways that uh uh women have these expectations on them that compete, right, within them. And imagine, my goodness, if I'm walking around with these competing expectations inside of me, my goodness, how's that gonna affect my life? I mean, tremendously.

SPEAKER_03 12:49

So you mentioned one keyword, competing, compete. And I want to talk about comparison. Um, how does comparison play a role in it? Is comparison where the pressure started? Um, is comparison obviously, comparison is gonna make everything worse, right? The thief of joy. And so, um how does comparison play a role in all this? Is it the core issue? Is it just leading to the issue? How do we avoid it? How do we stop comparing ourselves and how do we move past that?

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Well, the first thing that came to my mind is our identities in Christ. I think when we really zero in truly to who God made us to be as an individual and and look to him as far as our identities, that is a very stable it's a stable um I don't know what to say, concept to zone in on because every day I'm loved, every day I'm forgiven, every day I'm cherished, every day I'm wanted, every day the the things that God brings to us every day as his children is very stabilizing and hopeful, and it gives us resilience. I can get back up and keep going and when I've made mistakes, because I know who I am to God and who God is to me. But when we take our focus off of that and we look at our performance, what is someone else thinking about how I'm performing? What am I thinking about how I'm performing? Well, that's a roller coaster ride because people are gonna think a wide variety of things. I'm gonna think a wide variety of things, circumstances are gonna change. So I think it it just breeds anxiety and it fuels us, sometimes it fuels people very strongly to try and live in a way that gets ever of other people's approval. But it's it's not, I think, the way that God desires us to live in relationship with Him where He is the ultimate one that matters.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Amazing is there anything else you'd like to add?

SPEAKER_00 15:12

I have nothing to add to that. That was fantastic, babe.

SPEAKER_03 15:16

I I love the you know talking about both sides of the spectrum, you know, comparing it, but also like the approval, because I've seen like certain people's like approval, whether if it's from social media, you know, kind of play a negative role. Cause then it's like, oh, I gotta, I'm doing something right. And it's just like, you know, when God told, you know, when when the angel of the Lord appeared to Gain and said that you are a warrior, his identity was already a warrior. So all he had to do was just go. You know, there was no comparing who is the best warrior of them all, like I'm not the best. He's like, I've already identified you as that. Just go. And so I think that's a lot of things that we forget. Like, it doesn't matter whether you do get approval or you don't, right? Because it's what the Lord has already identified you as. And so I think sometimes the hardest part in trying to manage, you know, what's happening internally um while still appearing okay externally. I think that's one of the hardest things to balance. And you know, sometimes it's kind of force. It's like, okay, I gotta keep going, fake it till you make it, you know, and sometimes it could be good advice, like you know, you're almost there, just keep going. But you know, sometimes it it becomes um, it becomes like kind of the status quo. And it's just like it's never changing. And so my question to you guys is what's the difference between how you feel internally and how people see you externally and the importance, if there is any of it?

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Gosh, that's a complicated and complex question. So um I I like where Kia started earlier with if our starting point is our identity in Christ, um, then the internal state feels very stable, right? And from a mental and emotional health perspective, that's the place you would want to start. A sturdy, stable, secure starting point. Um, and obviously that's internally. Um, and usually when that's your state internally, it gets communicated externally through our nonverbals, through our facial expressions, through our interactions with others. So um that's pretty broad. Was there something that you were thinking? Will you restate the question?

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Yeah, absolutely. So, what's the difference between how you feel internally and how people see you externally? And if there's an importance there, like whether if it's better to show how you're feeling internally, or if it's better just to hold it all together at times, obviously there's a balance, right? But you know, what is the main difference in that? And how do we um what's the important thing to focus on? That makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Well, if I'm thinking personally, how do people view me externally versus who how am I internally? I think it's totally depending on how close people are to me. Probably the more distant they are from me, they go, Oh, she's confident and she's yeah, she's secure and I'll look okay. But the more you know me, the more you know because I've revealed, because I feel safe with you, that I'm pretty insecure on the inside. I struggle with a lot of stuff. And um, so like my family, they probably see it, they know how to see that in me. But I I think in considering this, it's figuring out the context and who are the appropriate to share, appropriate people to share with. I like the idea of having these concentric circles. You have your closest people that you have practiced over time with and learned they are safe for me to share the most vulnerable inner struggles. And then I have a little bit further out people that I can share some of that with, but maybe not. And then the general population, I'm not announcing to the world all these because you're protecting it as valuable. This vulnerable information is valuable. You can use it against me or you can use it to help me. So I want to share that with people that I know are trustworthy.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Well, and even as you were talking, Kia, I was reminded of a uh a study that when I was doing my undergraduate research in social psychology, they reminded us, and there's a lot of data to back this up, that the things we think and feel about ourselves internally uh do get communicated nonverbally. Like we it's almost like we cannot hide them, but that other people generally perceive you as about 20% lower than what you think of yourself. So, right, if I'm walking, yeah. So if you're walking around thinking, oh, I'm a horrible human, nobody likes me, everybody hates me. Um, other people pick up on that. You know, the the secular world just calls that your vibe, your energy, the stuff you're giving out. And there is some truth that we are energy biochemical machines that God has breathed life into that do impact others. So uh the things that go on inside of us do impact and affect others, right? I think some of the obvious examples that scripture points us to is uh, you know, in Proverbs, uh, the writer reminds us that words give life and words take life away. Well, that's powerful. And Jesus tells us in the New Testament, right, that it is from the abundance of what's going on inside of you that your words are gonna come from. So though to me, that's the intersection or the place where the internal and the external meet is usually in our words, but often in our actions, and even at the energy level, if you will, or or the the nonverbal communication level.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

So that's that's amazing stuff. Um, you know, I think society celebrates uh, you know, busyness. I think, and I I find myself myself doing it. And even like talking with people, whether if it's subconsciously, like sometimes it becomes like a comparison of like, you know, not intentionally, but like who's busier? You know, or sometimes it's a it's an accompl accomplishment, excuse me, like, wow, you were able to do all of that, like on top of everything that you already had. And so, but I really want to flip the script. You know, what happens emotionally when people don't slow down? Um, I I think society celebrates the busyness. And so, but busyness doesn't always mean, you know, is it busyness doesn't mean status, it doesn't mean you're doing a good job, or it doesn't mean fulfillment. And so what happens when people never slow down?

SPEAKER_02 22:43

Well, a variety of things can happen when people never slow down. Some people end up their bodies shut them down. I've more than once I've heard from clients who ended up in a hospital, um, a psych hospital, or even just a medical hospital, the ER, and they are able to say themselves, my body just shut me down because I wouldn't stop. And I had so much going on, and they were very aware of the connection. So sometimes that's what happens.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

What else do you think of? Well, certainly there's the um the mind and body connection there of my body does uh respond to the never slowing down. It lowers my immune system, it uh increases my likelihood for illness and disease, uh, heart attacks, all of those other things. Um I'm just also reminded that you know, God encourages us to slow down, right? Literally, our society, you know, probably back in the 60s when we started getting rid of blue laws and started to say, hey, listen, everything's 24-7, 365, and then come in the 90s and the 2000s, where it's not only 24-7, 365, but it's like literally information never stops coming at you. 24-hour news, 24-hour information just flooding our senses. We forget to take a Sabbath. We we don't rest and take a break from things. And uh, you know, we uh it's easy to say, hey, listen, well, because I worked seven days this week, I made a whole extra day of income for those of you who, you know, took the Chick-fil-A model and took the Sunday off, right? Um but that often ends up resulting in more harm than it does good because you're burnt out, your employees are burnt out. Uh again, my physical health ends up suffering from it. My relationships tend to suffer from it because then I'm isolated because I'm always going. I'm not making time for important things like family. Or the three things you said work, family, marriage. You know, so when you said kids, and you were differentiating the marriage from our role within the broader family. So there's social, work, and family. Those three suffer when we don't slow down. So and I think again, I think scripture encourages us to put the brakes on all that.

SPEAKER_03 25:39

I you I like how you mentioned like um that there's benefits to keeping the busy life, um but it's not worth it, you know, at the end of the day. You know, Jesus rested in the presence of God many times, and so um why do you think people sometimes feel guilty for taking that extra day of rest for not coming in? Um, why do you think there's that negative connotation?

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Well, I talked in the last episode about the idea of external voices being internalized, and I'm thinking of somebody I met recently who was raised in a family who owned their own businesses. They have owned restaurants, they owned landscaping companies, they owned all sorts of businesses. And they learned the value in a person and the way you live is to be working all the time. And so for them, that's so internalized that to not work all the time, it literally feels to their nervous system like I am doing something wrong. I am being bad. And they would even get that feedback from their family, like that's lazy. And so a lot of times it's what you're taught and what's role modeled.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

I agree. Well, and even the phrase that you use or the word you used, my value, that's an economic term, right? Um, my worth is in what I can produce or how big my bank account is. And and then when when people start to uh look at or perhaps weaponize scripture against you and say, Well, you know, the sluggard, you know, look at the ant. The ant never rests. And so therefore, I'll rest when I die. And if you are resting prior to that, then you're just sinning. Ugh, those messages can be very damaging and hurtful. Um, and again, not big T. Uh, like I had mentioned last episode, there's big T trauma and little T trauma. It's a small T trauma to say, oh, if you're resting, that's just laziness, and laziness is a sin. Obviously, my my whole life isn't gonna crater on that. But when I hear that message in a variety of contexts over and over, just because I'm taking a break to rest, to actually get six to eight hours worth of sleep every night, um, that I'm making sure I make time for my family, if I get the message that those things are sinful, um those little teas add up to a very overwhelming tea that is now crushing my soul, my spirit, my body.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

So can I add something? Yeah, absolutely. This isn't specifically what you were asking, but I'm thinking it connects why a person does that. There can be different reasons, but connecting to what we were talking about on the last podcast as well. A lot of times a person who is living that way, just packing in so many things, it's to avoid what they're feeling inside, avoid stopping and noticing what is going on inside because that's scary and it's painful. And so sometimes it really slows down healing, it prevents healing, and that can cause some mental health difficulties.

SPEAKER_03 29:17

Thank you guys so much for sharing on that. Um, I would like to pivot just to Ted. Um, you know, specifically in relations, relationships, you know, I was always told the biggest issue and why relationships don't work, whether if it's marriage, uh romantic relationships or friendships is communication, right? Big communication is the biggest thing. And so um I really want to talk about certain misconceptions between men and women. So um, why do you think, or is there, do you think men often misunderstand? Is there a misunderstanding about the pressures that women carry versus what they actually carry? Um is there a subconscious misconception of like maybe men think a certain way that this is the pressures of a woman, and that's actually not. Um, is there some sort of miscommunication there in your guys' professional and personal opinion?

SPEAKER_00 30:13

And so in many, many ways, I this is a good example of let's make sure we proceed slowly as opposed to rapidly. Um, I think it's easy to put people into categories and not allow them to be individuals. Um, a great quote uh I heard, I think it was from uh one of the texts, it was either misreading scripture through individual uh perspectives or misreading scripture through Western eyes. It was one of those two books, but it it stated this phrase um, all stereotypes are wrong, but generally pretty helpful. Um, and the idea is that listen, if I try to apply a stereotype to you, Luis, as a uh Hispanic male, um, I'm gonna be wrong if I apply the the stereotypes to you. But if I don't know those stereotypes, I'm also not gonna know you, right? And so I I want to be interesting, yeah. I want to be careful how we proceed here to say, okay, are there some trends and things that we might notice? Yes, but I think at the same time, if you try to apply them across the board the board to every woman uh or every man, um, we're gonna be incorrect. But there are some things I think that might be worth noting to say, hey, let's be aware of some of these differences. Um that's the only setting the stage I would do, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

Yeah, and I think that's really important to keep in mind because if we feel like I can't relate to the other genders pressures because they're another gender, we're missing that. Really everything that we struggle with stems from things we have in common. The pressures of not enough time in a day. Both of us have that, no matter what's going on. Um, so there's there's a lot of pressures that we share, but they manifest differently depending on what we're doing. And so when we can remember that, we can approach each other's individuality or whatever you're dealing with and say, oh, I can I can understand that, I can care about that because it's not so foreign to me.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

Um, but one area that I have noticed comes up over and over when I listen to women where they feel like maybe, maybe they're if they're married, my husband's doesn't totally get this, is if they are maybe more of the one who does do more things at home. Um, so I'll give a little example, like uh getting ready to have, let's see, is this one I was thinking of? Well, I'll just do it out of my head. We'll see if I can remember. Getting ready to have like guests over. Now, this is not true in every household, but for a lot of households, the woman might have been coordinating it on the calendar, thinking ahead to what do we need to eat? What groceries do we need? Am I gonna make this food? Or how are we gonna divvy it that up? If they have kids, they're thinking, oh, is this gonna be something the kids can participate in? Or do I need to have something else set up for them? If they're if they have kids and they're a nursing mom, I have to do my I thought I prepared. Um, I need to make sure the timing of the nursing is worked out. They're thinking about I have to make sure the bathrooms are cleaned. I have to, there's just like this massive list of things. And what I hear is like, yes, I'm very grateful that he will be very stereotypal, grilled the meat. Very stereotyped. Or yes, I'm thankful that he this, but they are tasks. She's maybe often being the project manager, and he's doing some tasks, and he just may not understand or realize what all she's carrying inside that you can't see. It's a mental load. So that's the theme I hear over and over is I don't feel like my spouse understands the mental load that I'm carrying. And that's not one person's fault over the other. Maybe it's not being communicated. You know, it could be that this husband's like, I would love to share the mental load. Let's like plan together or something. And sometimes women are like, but it's my territory. So it could be, it could be on her. It could be that he's not interested because he's like, This is your thing. But it is something to maybe communicate about if she's feeling that way.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

And I would say, just on a more personal note between us, like historically, particularly early on in our marriage when our older kids were much younger, whenever we would go out of town, I would think, oh, well, I've booked the hotel. I've taken time off work. That's all we need. And you're coordinating, well, okay, are we going to a warm climate or a cold climate? You're following up because our children often did not know how to pack appropriately. So you're ensuring that they're packing everything, and you're thinking about snacks in the car on the way because our kids get hangry. And I'm just like, I show up and like, well, I did my part. Like, why are you so stressed? Totally unaware that you're thinking of all the logistical parts, kind of like that project manager you were talking about. That was a very real in our relationship scenario where she definitely carried a much more significant burden than I was even aware of at the time.

SPEAKER_03 35:55

So, how did you guys bridge that gap personally? Like, how did you meet the middle? Was it a matter of you accepting that you're going to be the project manager and accepting that, you know, you will do some tasks? Was there anything, Robert, that you were able to do to support like that project project manager role? Like, how would you how did you guys end up meeting in the middle?

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Yeah. Well, first of all, it's a big assumption that it's resolved. Um, but I would say I hope that we're better today than we were 30 years ago. Um and lots and lots of conversations, right? Lots of uh communication, like you were saying, of and very raw and real communication, like, hey, um it bothers me, and I feel left alone when things happen like this. And and you know, in a relationship that's important to you, you have to develop uh vocabulary and words that are meaningful for both of you that actually slow the conversation down. Um, because in communication, listen, our body, God designed our bodies to be ridiculously efficient. Okay. How many times did you have to fall off the couch before you realized gravity was a real thing? Right? Hopefully not too many. Um, how many times do you have to stick your hand on the stove before you realized, oh, and for most of us, it's like once in our entire life. And then our brain and our bodies have it. That's incredible learning. Well, and that's very efficient. But you know, when you're talking about communication, if I had a conversation with you 20 years ago, and in that conversation, I concluded, oh, you don't like hearing this, that, or the other. And so now I'm holding that instead of checking my assumption, I just operate without checking with you anymore. Um, it's very likely you're not the same person you were 20, 30 years ago, right? I need to develop ways of communicating with you that slow us down and check in with each other, like, hey, is this still true? Do you still feel alone in preparing the kids? And she'll be like, hmm. Well, I I still feel a lot of times I have noticed that you've increased in this and this, and those are helpful. I'd like some help in this, these other ways. Those are ways that we are continuing to be in the process, and we still have to continue growing with each other uh to learn those things.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

Absolutely. And I think really quickly, I can tell you there's another thing we've done that I think has helped us a ton, which is we've learned to anticipate, oh, this is coming up. And then say, what are your hopes about this? What are you hoping it will be like, or that I might do, or that you might do, and just try and think about our expectations ahead of time instead of just going into it with silent hopes and then coming out the other side and saying, Well, that didn't happen.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

Hinting and hoping does not generally work in close relationships.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

Yeah, I have never thought about that. Like assuming your assumptions are so correct. Um, because first of all, it's hard for me to think of things that I need to do, like whether if it's to help my mom out, like I'm very mom, just tell me what you do. And the more she tells me, obviously, the more I get the hint. But eventually, right? Um, but you know, after I've gone into the rhythm of like maybe what she wanted me to, or finally when I finally understand, I've never like checked that assumption. Like, hey, is this still how you have I been doing a good job, or did you just get tired of telling me the right way? You know? And so that that's a very interesting perspective that I honestly have never thought of. Um, for this next question, hopefully it kind of makes sense. It makes sense in my head. But do you think women and men are allowed to struggle openly and equally?

SPEAKER_00 40:15

You want to hear my thought? Yes. Okay. Um, I would say given what I see in our counseling practice, I think that's a fairly big indication of what's happening in society at large. And overwhelmingly, my client base is females. Um, and it's them coming to seek help. Not because they're being sent there, they are seeking help. Uh, what that message sends to me is that societally it is acceptable for women to acknowledge that they need help and seek it out to get that help. Um, and it's probably a 10 to 1 ratio, female to male. So um, it's not to say I don't have men on my caseload, I do, uh, that are coming in individually and they're working on things. But again, that ratio is about 10 to 1. So I think societally and socially, it's way more acceptable for women to acknowledge that they are wanting and needing help and to subsequently seek it out than it is for men.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

I see exactly the same thing in my practice and and I I think that has so much to do with just how we raise little boys and little girls and what we put in their minds as far as independence versus interdependence and caring for others versus versus caring for self.

SPEAKER_03 41:59

So how does carrying around um emotional weight will affect your relationships across the board?

SPEAKER_02 42:10

Emotional weight? Emotional weight.

SPEAKER_03 42:12

Like whether if it's carrying like maybe a past discussion that, you know, wasn't handled properly or an argument or um miscommunication between friends, you know, a lot of that ends up becoming emotional weight. It's like, okay, I'm gonna push it down, I'm not gonna think about it. I'm tired of arguing, let's just move on. Um, I feel like that's that's something common that I do. Like I feel like in my spheres, you know, whenever certain argument happens, it's like, okay, it happened, whatever, we're sorry, we're gonna move on. And of course, of all the type of people I can be, it's so hard for me to move on. Like, like I I won't let I won't let it affect you. And like I won't, I won't maybe I I'll try my best, of course. I'm not perfect, but I'll try my best never to bring him up, move on, but I carry it around. And so I have to really like check my heart and like, okay, I'm carrying something, like we've moved on. And so how does that emotional way affect relationships?

SPEAKER_02 43:20

You want me to start? Well, what comes to mind when you're drawing that picture is this could be in in friendships, it could be in a couple, it can be parent-child, siblings, like any relationship. And I often hear the phrase we pushed it under the carpet. Swipe wipe it under the carpet. What is it? Swipe it? Sweep it under the carpet. Um and generally or you could say I'm like kind of putting it away in a container and just putting it out. But generally what happens is over time something triggers that. information to come out, that ex that hurt, that pain that hasn't been healed, that hasn't been resolved. And it will get bigger and bigger and less and less manageable in the relationship, in the way it comes out, the more that's accumulated. So what I love it when people come in early in a relationship and say, you know what, we're doing fine, but we just kind of want to do some preventative maintenance. We've noticed a few things. I'm like, oh, that's so good. Because if you wait 30 years, it gets practically unmanageable.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

Well Luis, when I was listening to you, the a very um Christian word popped into my head. Uh do you know what that Christian word was? It's not unique to Christians, but it's very foundational for Christians. Jesus. Something to do with love. Jesus, love. Good guesses. No, the the word that came up in my mind as you were talking was forgiveness. Right? Because you're like, okay, people do stuff, like I want to set it down, I want to put it away, I want to let it go, move on, but sometimes that can be hard. Right. And I think, you know, when we start thinking about forgiveness and we thinking about communication, the word forgiveness is such a challenge because it is one word that summarizes something much, much bigger, but it's kind of limited. And we use it as if we all know what it means and we use it as if it's the same in every circumstance. And it's not. So and I I like to draw parallels a lot of times between uh emotional and physical because most people understand the physical more than they do emotional. Because it's we all have bodies and we all have physical experiences. And since we can't see emotions but we can see our bodies a lot of times people will uh gravitate more towards understanding of the physical parallels. But let's let's talk about forgiveness from a a physical perspective. If my leg is broken how badly am I hurt? I would say you're pretty hurt. Out but it kind of depends though, doesn't it? Because it's called a broken leg if it's just slightly fractured. It's also called a broken leg if the bone is entirely separated and half of it's sticking out from the skin. But can we agree those are two very different injuries? Right and and what healing is going to look like for those injuries is going to be different. Right? And so when we start talking about injury and forgiveness issues, I think one of the first steps we have to do is recognize that we have to kind of assess how badly has this thing affected me. Right? And how badly whatever has just come up between us has affected me might also depend some on well was I injured walking into this relationship. Right? Wow. Right? If my leg is already fractured and then I come and see you and you kick me right in the place it was fractured. Or hey what if it's even worse than that? What if you didn't kick me but you ran over me in a car? Ah well it was already broken but now it's really broken. Now it's crushed. Now it's shattered. And at that point, you know certainly forgiveness at some point is going to play a factor here but long before we need to be having a discussion about forgiveness don't we need to be having a discussion about the injury and does does my body care whether you did that on purpose or on accident it really doesn't. That doesn't make the injury less whether it was intentional or not. At some point discussions about your intent are going to be relevant if we're going to have a relationship going forward. But so when I hear issues like carrying weight and pressure and relationship and perhaps issues related to forgiveness come up I'm very mindful to slow the conversation to be like okay oops let's slow down the discussions about forgiveness sometimes come out really quickly and I usually push the brakes on people say wait wait wait before we start talking about forgiveness can we ask what happened? Like how badly have you been hurt and how long has this been going on because again if I don't know how badly your leg has been injured how in the world are we going to talk about moving on so I know I just opened up a whole big can of worms really important though what you're saying.

SPEAKER_03 49:20

That's I that makes so much sense um that I don't know I've never thought of it that way like there's always like I've always knew like there's always a deeper right there's always a deeper issue right um but really like seeing where you first injured yourself and talking about that it doesn't matter what you know what the other person may have done or may have said to hurt you like because you've already been injured. And so like knowing that prior before going into a relationship it's like okay like that's that's so much like helpful like thinking that like now it's like okay this is whether if it's something I struggle with or something I'm still working on like this is a boundary for me like this is something I'm I'm struggle with. And not because of you chances are I'm gonna blame it on you but it's really not and so but wow what a kind of paradigm shift um you know well and can I throw one more monkey wrench into there well just from this perspective let's let's take this injury level a step further what if this injury causes the loss of my leg okay now at what point will I be I'm using air quotes here right healed from a lost leg.

SPEAKER_00 50:41

So even the word healed is a little bit incomplete sometimes because well I hope that if I've lost my leg I'm not actively bleeding anymore but at what point will my leg return to my body right as it's gone. And so is healing the right word or phrase for it or is it I'm adapting or I'm shifting or something else right I learning how to learning how to manage coping is another word sometimes people use but I'm like okay now that doesn't mean I can't forgive you but even if I forgive you that's not gonna bring my leg back right so all sometimes these discussions just require let's slow down let's let's be a little more intentional to explore connect and uh clarify in these situations so that we can know how to proceed because again if if you just stepped on my toe and I went ouch well that's pretty different than an again a broken leg or an amputated leg. So um so a lot of times this is just slowing down.

SPEAKER_02 51:56

Trying to put a band-aid on your yes on your missing leg. Missing leg that's not gonna be enough correct misconception of healing.

SPEAKER_03 52:05

Wow so a lot of times we tend to think you know when we're going through healing process we're gonna be healed but really that's not the right term.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

Well it's an incomplete term. It's it's like okay look if I go to the gym and work out today am I healthy? Right right that's a misconception. Um is that included in being healthy? Well sure it is but so is what I eat and so is how often I go to the gym. It's it's it's just a little more complicated. And so our job is not to make life more complicated but it's to acknowledge hey sometimes there's more going on here than meets the eye um and in some ways Jesus I think was the master at that right he he not only made things more complicated but he also made them way simpler right he's like hey let's love our neighbor and then we wanted to be all you know well who's our neighbor Jesus right like seriously do I have to love the guy way across town Jesus says well let's let's talk about it right um and we know how that story ends so amazing um I kind of want to mention something that we talked about earlier in this episode um a little bit earlier we were talking about internal pressures versus external um expectations and so um I want to talk about you know one of the biggest struggles in society today is people tying their value to how well how well they perform different well roles something as simple as you know something I've seen like in relationships my husband is the best husband out there he does this this this is this and this um which is not a bad thing right that's a good thing we're celebrating positive things that are being done but I think sometimes you know it's more than just that you know it's not just those things but you know the value is in not necessarily in their actions and even with friends it's like oh you know if I'm not being your best if I'm not there for you 247 then maybe I'm not being your best friend and you know it becomes a performing thing.

SPEAKER_02 54:03

So um do you ever feel like your worth is tied to how well you're doing yes I do sometimes I do that I you know kind of echoing back to what I was saying previously about identity in Christ for me when I notice I'm feeling bad about myself for my performance in some way or feedback I got about my performance in some way that is my little red flag to okay I need to remember the truth about who I am and what really matters and who matters the most and when I can refocus on that it helps me stabilize again.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

But if I keep my focus on but I want to get this other person to think well of me or or I want to achieve this thing or I'm not gonna feel good about myself then I stay in a an anxious destabilized state anything else you'd like to add Mr Robert I I don't I know that you used to share regularly um and have even taught me that uh that principle of right if we find our value and worth in our performance plus what other people think about me then we're always going to come up short right that that's not God's equation that's our equation um God's equation is I love you and sent my son for you period that's it I'll never leave you or forsake you that's God's equation it's kind of lopsided and when we can align with his view of us it really does take over the worth we're worth a creator of the universe uh taking on human form to understand us to be with us to remove our sense of being alone that's what we're worth that's what what words are there for that that's wow so for somebody who's drained who feels emotionally drained um maybe emotionally exhausted as well um how does healing look like for that individual how would you guys go about guiding someone through that oh I I don't mind yeah I think the first thing I do when I hear uh or pick up that overwhelm is the number one issue the first thing I want to do again is to communicate compassion and connection right which is gosh I can totally see and imagine what that's like for you and I want you to know you're not alone like listen the the body of Christ is designed to walk through life in community not in isolation I think our culture has uh equated that the most godly spiritual thing you can do is get alone in your prayer closet with a Bible and read and pray and I think that's uh that is a thing you can do I would never place that at the top of the list of things I think you should be doing right I think we should be connecting with one another the word of God is designed to be read heard and discussed publicly not in the privacy of my prayer closet right that's isolating and I will very likely come to very wrong conclusions in my prayer closet by myself so I need the body of Christ. So when I hear someone say they're overwhelmed I imagine the first thing that comes to my mind is yeah I bet you're trying to carry stuff all by yourself. Wow let me come alongside you and and this is one of my favorite verses I believe it's in first John where we're encouraged to bear one another's burdens and therefore fulfill the law of Christ meaning if I'm not bearing burdens with you a I'm not fulfilling the law of Christ and neither are you but bearing burdens with you means you have to share your burdens that's to me when I hear overwhelm I want people to walk away with that message that you don't need to bear these burdens alone right Jesus said come my burden is light let's switch and that's in the context of Christian community I I completely agree that that's the most important thing.

SPEAKER_02 59:18

And I'm thinking of people who have long-term difficulties that are not going to end anytime soon maybe they have a disabled child that they are going to be taking care of the rest of their lives or a parent who's got Alzheimer's and they've been living with it for five years and there's some really difficult things that there is no quick fix to that is going to be emotionally exhausting. And the best thing I know is when they can connect with others either maybe in a support group or if not even something official like that, but just friends who care and can be patient to hear this over and over and over again. And how do you get to where you can do that well in large part it's knowing it's not your job to fix it. It's just your job to listen and care. And maybe here and there is a way that you can help. Support but yeah not being alone is probably the hugest thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:20

You know to wrap everything up I think even of our last episode it seems the thematic message here is isolation you know it's how you notice that you know you're potentially slowly but surely you know starting to struggle with mental health thinking that you can't talk about it um whether if it's you know thinking that you can do it you have to do it by yourself or thinking that you know only you can do it and there's no support and so you mentioned you know being in the body of Christ if somebody's listening right now and they're feeling completely alone um whether they do have a church or they don't what is in your opinion guys' opinion the best way to start connecting in a body of Christ I think we have to in some ways redefine what the body of Christ is right it's not simply showing up for a official gathering on Sundays um it can include that but it's certainly not limited to that um we have at least two small groups that we regularly attend that know us and we know them that we regularly meet with um I encourage people to attend things and look for other believers in the community right CrossFit is a great example I know tons of believers who are involved in CrossFit right or workout groups or cycling groups or biking groups or running groups or hiking groups or um just all kinds of activities within the community where fellow believers are and you just live life together right that's the biggest part of connection is living life together people who share meals with you people who uh right like our neighbor uh is they are growing elderly I am fully aware at some point they are going to be needing help I want to be accessible and available to helping them in ways that they need help. Um that's part of being in the community and loving our neighbors as ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:39

So I'm thinking about the church um noticing when someone comes in alone and and just offering like hey you want to come sit with us just not letting them just I mean you don't force them obviously but giving it an invitation because a lot of times when people are alone they don't want they wouldn't ask to sit with you but if they were invited they would um just looking for opportunities like that but for the person who is lonely it just takes courage it takes courage to try and connect and I guess I would just say to that person it's so understandable that it's risky. It is risky to step out and so I I just hope and pray that when a per person does have the courage to try and connect that the church is really aware of that and responds well.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:39

That's amazing I appreciate I appreciate you guys sharing um you know I think it's so easy which is really what this podcast you know our vision what it's really all about I think it's just so easy you know Sunday is it whether if it's you know the ministry side of it like we're making sure Sunday is you know the best quality or whatever the Lord has you know led us to do on Sundays that it's like Sunday focus or even as believers you know our focus is attending Sundays we gotta make sure we attend Sundays we got to make sure attend Sundays but you know do we have that same energy for you know this the small groups the the important gatherings whether if it's a program that fits your description for example like we have momco like going to that and it's typically not um like that same energy isn't um tied to both and so um but they're just as important you know biblically the Bible says big big temple fellowship and um small house small house small group or fellowship whatever it may be and so yeah I loved how you guys highlighted on that and I think if there's one big takeaway from all this is that you know just like last time you're not doing it alone um and your worth isn't what you're carrying it's in your identity in Christ and you know I want to say thank you to listeners who may be listening in and you guys as well for joining us in another episode of Connection in Progress. And um this has been our series the battle within and you know we want to continue the thematic message that connection just doesn't stop on Sundays. And we want to highlight different ways that maybe believers or just listeners um can connect and can move beyond what they're struggling. And so if there's one important takeaway from today it's this that your value isn't found in how much pressure you carry you know you are allowed to rest you're allowed to ask for help and you never have to carry the thank you guys and we'll see you for the next one