SPEAKER_01 0:15

Welcome back to Connection in Progress. Throughout the series, we talked about growth, leadership, relationships, and becoming the person that God wants you to be. But one area that often gets overlooked in conversations about leadership and preparation is mental health and emotional health. Many people spend years preparing financially, academically, or professionally for their future, but don't always spend the same amount of time in investing in their emotional well-being. Healing from past experiences or learning healthy ways to navigate stress, stress, excuse me, relationship and life. Today we're joined by Kia and Robert Hart, like always. And through their work, counseling individuals, couples, and families, they've helped people navigate through challenges ranging from anything from anxiety to burnouts and relationships, struggles, and even personal growth. So today we're going to be talking about what it means to build a healthy foundation before stepping into greater responsibilities and how our mental health plays a role in the future that we're trying to create. And so this is your podcast, Connection in Progress, our mental health series, the silent battle within. And that is what we're continuing today. And so before I begin in anything, let's start off with a quick prayer. If you don't mind, Helen Father, Lord, thank you for this most wonderful and most beautiful day. Thank you for another day of life that you've given each and every single one of us, Lord. Thank you for this time that we have, Lord, to be able to gather in this podcast, Lord, but most of all, be able to talk about it, Lord. And that's our goal with this series and just this podcast in general, Lord. I pray for every single listener that may be tuning in, Lord. I just pray that you give them certain answers that you're wanting them to hear, Lord, to take away what you want them to take away, Lord. Or if it's just to listen and learn and grow, then that is also amazing, Lord. I pray that we can all continue to grow together, all for your glory and all for your kingdom, all for your kingdom come, Lord. All this I pray in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. All righty. So when people think preparing for their future, um, they often think about finances, careers, education, and accomplishment. Um, this is a bit of a long question, but I want to ask you guys, what are some emotional and mental health areas that people should pay attention to before stepping into the big responsibilities? So the marriage, family life, leadership, or any other major responsibilities that y'all can think of.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Yeah. Well, you know, as you set it up, I was thinking about all the things that you mentioned were visible things, right? They're things that you can see: a diploma, a contract, um, my bank account, my bank statement, those kinds of things. Um, when you start talking about emotional and spiritual things, those are things that we can't see. So, you know, and scripture prompts us and reminds us that above all else, we should guard our hearts, which kind of puts our attention on something that's invisible. Um, so you know, when I think of paying attention to that, what I think that means is paying attention to things like uh unresolved wounds, uh patterns that we've learned from our family of origin, um, you know, how we handle stress, conflict, uh, even disappointment in our lives, because these are things, again, that we have to deal with, but we don't see. And ultimately our ability to self-regulate um and communicate our needs uh emotionally um and spiritually to one another.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

I'm thinking an indicator that you're maybe in a healthy place and you have prepared well would be if when you do have conflict or you do have a buildup of stress, um you don't have reactive outbursts and you also don't shut down or shut people out. You can stay in more of a middle zone where you keep connection and and it's not so reactive. So that's just kind of an indicator of maybe you need some more work or maybe you're in a good place to step into something like that.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Is there any other indicators um other than those reactive ones that people may be able to realize, okay, I haven't fully prepared emotionally.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Go ahead. Nothing's coming to mind. Well, certainly I'm I I usually draw this equation on my whiteboard at work. Uh I call it relational math. Um and if you can visualize it with me, um the the equation, excuse me, the equation looks like this. Um lowercase E leading to an uppercase R, right? And from a relational standpoint, meaning when a small event leads to a big response, you can rest assured that there are big E's or big events that we are typically under responding to. Because, you know, ultimately that equation, when those two go together, it's balanced, right? Little E, big R, big E, small R together, that makes a balanced equation, right? But not a healthy equation. Um the healthy equation is small events with small responses, right? Um, big events then have a big response. So um, and we often see people come to us in sessions, and particularly in couples, the the joke in the field is, you know, um couples come in and they're ready to draw divorce papers or separate over which way the toilet paper rolls, right? Over the top or under the bottom. Okay. Um, that would be an example of responding in a large way to something very small and insignificant, even, right? Or one partner has really been out of shape because the toothpaste is squeezed, you know, just randomly, like you grip it, versus the one who rolls it up very methodically from the bottom so that it evenly flows out and you get the maximum toothpaste out. These are not big deals. Um, so you know, certainly over-responding to little things is a sign. Um, avoiding conflict, which you talked about, right? Um, withdrawal, that's a sign. Uh difficulty trusting other people, right? As opposed to a more open, trusting response on the front end. Uh feeling responsible for other people's emotions as well. That's a sign. Um, shutting down and repeating the same relationship patterns over and over in different uh relationships. Those are all signs of things that people are carrying unresolved and unhealthy emotions inside.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

So I I think we can all agree that emotional health is very overlooked compared to the things that you can't see. Sure. Um, that you were stating earlier, Mr. Robert. Um, so like those financial or professional um preparations are always focused on a lot more. Um, we always maybe even value them a lot more as well. Um, but why do you think that has happened? Is it like something that is engraved in our natural system? Is it a culture thing? Is it social media? Why do you think um emotional health is being so overlooked?

SPEAKER_00 8:11

I think the short and simple answer is that there's not immediate consequences of it. Right. We can I I think of it like a diet, right? Why do we have an obesity epidemic in our country? Well, it's because, you know, eating a cheeseburger does not make me obese and doesn't make me unhealthy. Now, of course, I say this after we just got finished eating cheeseburgers for lunch, but right. Um, there's no immediate negative consequences to eating cheeseburgers for lunch. Right. But if all I ever eat is cheeseburgers and it doesn't change, then there's long-term consequences. And I think the same thing is true in what we're talking about here. Where it I can ignore and not pay attention to my emotional and mental health, and it's not going to immediately destroy my life or my relationships. But if I don't correct them, what ends up happening is if I view that this emotional health is me driving in a car, I'm my car may not be wrecked instantly, but when I look in the rear view mirror, I see a trail of wreckage. It's often more long-term. And I think that's the real reason why it gets overlooked, right? Versus if I don't have any money, well, I'm gonna notice that right away because I can't go buy my cheeseburgers, right? Um, I'll notice that one. I'm not gonna necessarily notice immediately the emotional neglect or unhealthiness. Is there anything else you'd like to add, Ms. Kia?

SPEAKER_02 9:50

Just uh I it's just another way of saying what you're saying. Um, it's kind of invisible until a crisis hits. And so with um preparing for financial and professional things, of course, it's just so tangible. You know, I go to a class, I get a certificate. Now I'm allowed to do this as I'm working. There's milestones, there's um, what do you call it? Promotions. So it's just so tangible. Um, do I have a savings account? Do I have enough to cover this? Yeah, you get that immediate feedback. It's so tangible. And these other things are just, they're just not as easy to identify unless you know what you're looking for, which is what we've been talking about.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

That makes a lot more, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, um, the tangible things, there's always something that you can work at to either produce more, um, which probably in this day and age is a little bit harder to say, right? But if you have a job and you have opportunity to get overtime, um, you know, you and you're needing money, obviously you can work overtime, get more money. And there's a lot more, you know, of that. Like, what is it called? The I guess checks and balances, I guess, but like the you put in the work, you immediately get like, you know, your values, the results immediately. So that makes a lot more sense. And if you're lacking something that's tangible, um, then it's like, okay, maybe you cut in your budget or maybe you get a second job, how easy that may be over focusing on, you know, your emotional health. And that that's that's funny because that's actually something I did, you know, in the beginning of this year, I finished it, but I was like, oh, you know, let me just get a second job. And it's like, how easy that is, but long-term is very not um recommended. So what does emotional maturity actually look like? How do you know that you have that good balance um in your life?

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Well, one of the ways is um it's the capacity, capacity to recognize what you're experiencing and regulate your nervous system. So knowing how to soothe yourself when you need to be soothed, often we're looking to others to soothe us and we don't know how to soothe ourselves. So that would be a part of emotional maturity and communicating needs honestly without demanding. So just being able to share what's needed, um, yeah, without without trying to take it from someone who's maybe not ready to give it.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Do you have an example of that?

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Lots of examples come to mind. I guess I'm thinking, I don't know, does a good one come to your mind?

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Not right off the bat. I mean, I I think of the metaphor of breathing, um, in that we're designed to both give and receive, but we often hoard and take as opposed to giving and receiving. Um and emotionally in a relationship, it looks a lot like uh when I have needs, rather than to humbly and vulnerably come and share them. Uh, hey, I can use some support right now. Hey, I can use some encouragement right now. We often go to the people that are important in our life and we demand those things, right? Hey, I'm hurt because you didn't this, uh, you didn't support me or you didn't call me or you didn't um, well, now I'm no longer in a position where I'm vulnerably and humbly coming before someone to share it, which is a sign of immature. A sign of maturity is the coming to humbly say, Hey, I need this, versus the demanding of it and the taking of it, which is the, hey, you didn't do this for me, and so now I'm mad at you. That's more of the immature emotional response.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

So can I expound on it a little bit? Absolutely, absolutely. You inspired me. Um, so I was just thinking about part of as a Christ follower, getting there, I think, is learning that we share, we share our needs with other people, um, appropriate people, friends or a partner, or even our kids sometimes. But knowing that God is the ultimate meter of our needs. And so putting the expectations there, Lord, I'm gonna share with people what I'm needing, but I'm really ultimately gonna be trusting you to meet meet that need creatively, maybe through one of these people. I hope that I shared it with, maybe in a different way. And that's that's something to always be growing in, I think. Learning to take your expectations to God as you share those desires with other people. And then also for so many, we're not taught how to even look within ourselves as well to meet some of those needs. For instance, I might be needing encouragement, words of encouragement. I need those often. And what I did forever was go to other people when I needed words of encouragement. Okay. But what I've been learning even in the past five years is the skill of slowing down and first of all, connecting with God's words of encouragement to me, but also giving them to myself. Um, really just noticing the part of me that's maybe feeling insecure or that is discouraged and speaking truth to those parts of me. And that sounds corny, maybe if you've never done that. But it actually, it actually shifts something inside to give that to yourself. And then what that does is if you can, through God and through telling yourself the truth, kind of soothe those parts that were feeling distressed, then it's easier to not try and take it from others because it's doesn't feel so urgent. Right. It's not like you are my first and only stop. You need to do this for me. You're able to, you have other ways as well.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Wow. So interesting. I just learned so much from that conversation. Um, I'm the same way. Um, words of like kind of affirmation is a huge thing for me. Probably because I'm just so insecure. Um, I feel like I'm always asking the media team like, is this good? I need to tell me this is good or bad. And it's just like, okay, like understanding that I can get that myself. You know, I don't need other people. I don't, and it should really come from the source, right? God. Um, and so that's that's a very I love that.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Yeah, imagine slowing down and going, okay, Lord, you know, you know I did the best I could, and I know that you're pleased. That's all you needed. And I think I did okay. I'm gonna encourage myself that I think that was acceptable, and maybe even I did some things well, and just telling yourself that. And then being like, what are you guys thinking? It it might not, you might not need it so badly. Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

If you had done those other things, then you can handle the constructive criticism a lot better.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Wow, amazing. So and I kind of want to flip the question a little bit. So we talked about the signs and like when you're struggling um with emotional health. We talked about like how it gets overlooked and you know, how to work on that. So, what if we get stuck in working on it? Um, how can preparation become unhealthy if we're constantly trying to fix ourselves before taking the next step in life? How do we find that balance?

SPEAKER_00 17:43

That is that's a challenge that's often driven by fear, right? People who get stuck in preparation are often often fear-based because they're thinking, oh my gosh, what if I make a mistake? What if it doesn't turn out the way I'm expecting to? Um and so recognizing what drives that um can be a motivator to figure your pathway out of it, okay? Um because being stuck in preparation often looks like perfectionism, right? This has to be perfect. Um and where then does all that responsibility fall right on me, right? And in being in that position, we can lose sight of the fact that it's God working in and through us that growth happens, right? We can easily forget that he who began a good work, he who began a good work in us is the one who's faithful to complete it. But that's not about Luis or Robert or Kia, that it's about the Holy Spirit working in and through us. Um but it's easy to forget that and kind of get hung up in the we've always got to be self-focused and always on the preparation side of the house.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

So yes, and I'm thinking as well that a lot of growth happens when we step into what we're gonna do. So you can prepare and prepare, but at some point, stepping in, if you think about getting on a sports team, getting in a career, you almost never feel totally ready. Like, oh my gosh, I don't know how how well I'm gonna do with this. A lot of people feel like I don't feel ready to be married, or I don't feel ready. There's so many things we don't feel ready for that we may never feel ready for. So stepping into it in community, in relationship is where so much of our growth happens. So, yeah, there is this fine balance between preparing ourselves ahead of time, but then also having the courage, knowing that God is with us and that God will grow us and help us be ready as you know, the different things come along we need to do within these different areas.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Wow. That's me advice. So when it comes to leadership, you know, before we lead others well, we often have to learn how to care for ourselves well. So, what does a healthy self-leadership look like from a mental and emotional health perspective?

SPEAKER_00 20:34

I think we have to start by looking inward, right? That um recognizing that we gotta shepherd and allow our hearts to be shepherded by the Holy Spirit inwardly, which means we have to attend to those things. And you know, and as humans, I think it's easy. Um I think we talked about this in one of our prior podcasts, but because we come into the world very dependent upon our caretakers, it's easy for our focus to remain outward, right? And so when you think about leadership, it is often what am I doing outwardly? My actions, how am I um behaving and responding to situations? Maturity in leadership, I think, looks like starting inward by preparing my heart, preparing my mind, preparing my spirit to uh to be in alignment with what the Father wants from us, right? And I think that means things like knowing and attending to what our limits are, uh being honest with ourselves about what we need, making sure that we regularly practice self-reflection, right? When we look back on the day. That we look at what was going on and motivating us and driving us on the inside, uh, being able to set boundaries with ourselves and with others, and then taking responsibility for our reactions and situations.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

So I love how the questions connect. I mean, um, at the end of the day, we all have to be spirit-led, right? Correct. You need to continue your fellowship with God. And I say fellowship because it's important that you're keeping your relationship, you know, thriving, you know, to make these heavy decisions. Because you're right, you can be stuck in that preparation stage for the rest of your life, or you can jump into a stage that you may not be real what you may not be ready for, excuse me, but you don't know that unless you're um having that one-on-one with Christ. And um even in this question, um it's important to self-reflect in everything because and the only way to do that is to let the Holy Spirit, you know, convict you of what you need for you to work on. True. Is there anything you'd like to add to that, Kia?

SPEAKER_02 23:11

The one thing I'm keeps going through my mind is this idea that a lot of times we know when we're leading others, that if we're doing it well, it's going to be loving, it's going to be compassionate, it's going to be kind. Like we know that's the best case scenario. But for a lot of people, and I remember it took me a long time to really see this. They don't see the merit in leading themselves that way. Oh, I need to talk kindly to myself, I need to be compassionate to myself. There's this sense of like, that doesn't matter. It only matters if I'm doing it for you. And I think it's it's massively, hugely, I don't know, bigger words to use a huge step in a healthy direction to actually begin to talk to yourself the way we know we should talk to others with kindness and compassion and encouragement.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

If any of my close friends are listening, I'm sure they're they're like, I told you, I told you, I told you so. It's I think everyone everyone knows this about me. I'm really hard about myself. And I love talking bad about myself. And I appreciate my friends because they're always like, stop it, stop it, stop it. And to me, I was like, I'm I'm being real, you know? But you're right. This is 1000% right.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

This one helped convince me. I thought, what if you had somebody walking around with you all your waking hours saying, Well, that was kind of stupid. What were you thinking for doing that? Oh, you don't look very good today. Like all the things you might say to yourself, what would that do to you? And what would you want to do to that person? You'd want to get away from them. You'd see them as your enemy. I don't like them. They bring me down. You would know that.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

But we're with ourselves 24-7. And it really does have an impact. It really does have an impact if we are continually doing that to ourselves. Wow. And I think we can feel it if we imagine it being just outside of our skin. I was like, oh yeah, that would stink.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Yeah, because if some people tell me, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What's happening?

SPEAKER_02 25:25

You can stand for it. You'd be like, this is not good. You're toxic. Get away from me.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Wow. I'm toxic to myself. That's a good takeaway from this. Um, but continuing this topic, um, what are some so we I want to talk about habits. There's habits that we tend to like use that obviously benefit us. Um, and when I'm speaking about um habits, I'm talking about like perfection, perfectional perfectionism? Perfectionism, oh my goodness. Um, fear of failure, constant comparison, yep, awardance, people pleasing. Some of these things in a way have benefits. For example, if you're, I don't mean always think in a church environment, but I mean in a church environment, right? If you're kind of in a not to say not to encourage that, but if you're a people pleaser, you can really make people feel welcomed. Um, in a professional environment, whether if you're like a manager or a boss, and if you have some perfectionism, that can be very beneficial, can keep you organized. However, on that, not tended well can actually be more detrimental than actual helpful. Um, so how do we balance that? How do we um what are some like habits or mindsets that people tend to hold on to that stop people from growing? And how do we move past that?

SPEAKER_02 27:01

My thoughts are that if you can look at you're saying in some ways perfectionism is a good thing. In some ways, people pleasing can be a good thing. And I see why you say that. Um, they can have what you're doing can seem to have positive effects. Right. But I think when you go down to the root, people pleasing is most often it's an attempt to manage other people's emotions in order to feel secure yourself. So I want to know that you feel happy because I'm uncomfortable if you don't feel happy.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

And or I want to know that you feel like you did a good job because I would feel bad if you felt bad. So I think if we can become okay with other people having their emotions, then we can let go of trying to control everybody else's emotions. And then we can actually choose to do things to please someone just because we want to please them, not because I feel uncomfortable if you're not feeling great. Right. Does that make sense? So just noticing where does it come from and why you're doing that. And with the perfectionism, often what we're trying to do is if I look perfect enough and do it perfect enough, I'll avoid shame. I don't want to feel shame. So I could be driven by that to be perfect. And that's going to be bad for our mental health and exhausting and impossible. Whereas if we can deal with our shame and find our identity in Christ and know that we are secure and stable and okay, then we can still work to try and do something excellently, but it's for a totally different reason. And that can be a healthy striving.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Did I did that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Yeah. And maybe this is because I'm your husband, maybe this is just because I'm a guy. Maybe this is just unique to me. But like as I kind of heard you and as we prepared for this going down those categories, um my responses are just more succinct, right? Like the idea of perfectionism is connected with fear of failure, and that both of them have their roots in fear, right? And the idea that your mistakes define you, um, as opposed to we're all a work in progress. Um, the idea of people pleasing is this idea that we uh are mixing up or equating love with approval. And those are different things, right? So I've got to get your approval to know that you love me. Um, that's what people pleasing is about, as opposed to, no, I can not have your approval and still totally love you and you still totally love me. Um and of course, comparison is all about measuring your worth by literally your stuff. Again, I think, again, we talked in a previous podcast about the idea that even the the term worth is an economic term, right? Who has more? Um, and I don't know that that's good. Uh I don't think that it's healthy that we measure ourselves economically. Um, there is economic differences, but God's value on us isn't based on uh monetary wealth or things, it's based on relationship, right? God loved us so much that He gave Himself. So um, so just when I think of these common things that interfere and aren't so healthy, I think, you know, scripture uh scripture is supported by data in that these things aren't healthy, right? Healthy relationships really are ones uh that address and prevent things like burnout and um decrease anxiety and depression in our lives. So I I think all of these areas perfectionism, people pleasing, comparison, avoidance, uh, those impair our mental, emotional, and spiritual health. So um I'm interested in helping work with folks to get past those.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

How can someone begin addressing these patterns in a healthy way?

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Well, and there's scripture encourages us to overcome fear with God's perfect love. And I believe the most loving and powerful way to communicate love, since I'm not perfect, but I do have the Holy Spirit in me, I think one of the most powerful ways to overcome fear with love is by communicating to other people the message of, hey, I don't know what's gonna happen here, but I'll go through it with you, right? Don't have to be alone in it. Um, that's the most powerful thing, emotionally, spiritually, physically, uh, psychologically, to help a person cast out fear, right? Um with comparison, scripture encourages us to uh test each person should test their own actions in Galatians. Paul encourages us to do that. So basically, I'm supposed to weigh my own heart, right? Not compare myself to you, but I'm supposed to say, okay, Lord, if you've called me to do the following, did I do the following? Right, right. That I'm comparing myself to the Lord, uh, not with other people, right? And regarding people pleasing, Paul also encourages us. Uh, in Galatians, right, he points out that if we're trying to please people, we're not really being servants of Christ, right? Our job is to please the Lord. So that's usually the place I go with people um to try to help them overcome those things. You want to add to that?

SPEAKER_02 33:34

No, I think you covered it well.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Perfect. So mental health sometimes feels like a big top, a big topic, excuse me. But growth often happens through very small daily choices. What are daily practices that you guys recommend that would help people um stay emotionally and mentally healthy?

SPEAKER_02 33:59

Well, as I brainstorm about this, I realize all of mine are pretty connected, all of my ideas, but just they all kind of uh center around slowing down. Okay. Um driven by unconscious drivers. And so slowing down to notice what's happening inside is is a huge one. And ways you can do that. You can do meditations. There's lots of cool apps out right there, apps out there right now that do some guided meditations, and you can look at look even for Christian guided meditations, and they'll specifically, you know, be from that worldview. Those can be really, really healthy ways to help slow down. For some people, their minds just wander, and it's great to have somebody, you know, just saying, breathe right now. Notice what you're feeling inside, focus on this scripture, and it's just something to follow. So those things are out there that I think are really great. Um, just pausing to reconnect with God and others. I talked on another podcast about really how do you lean into who we are as a child of God? I think we have to slow down and remind ourselves. Oh, yeah, that means I know I'm gonna be forgiven if I mess up today. Oh my gosh, that's such a weight off my shoulders. I know that I am um, I have access to the God Almighty, just remembering all the truths and leaning into them, um, resting and then also moving your body. Moving your body is a big part of strategies for mental health. We actually can release stress hormones when we get out and we move our bodies. So those are some of my ideas.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Yeah. Um, as a very practical resource, there's a book out uh by a guy named John Mark Comer. Uh, it's called Practicing the Way. And he goes through, I think, nine spiritual disciplines that are very, very helpful. Um, off the top of my head, um, I know some of those are included in what Kia was just saying. Actually, having a Sabbath and practicing it, and that not only means slowing down, but practically stopping. Fasting is a part of it, um, meditation, scripture reading, prayer, um, things like that. And he goes into great detail to talk about those. And I I have had a great appreciation for that. So if you're looking for like a resource to go to on practical tips on how to do it, that's a great resource, practicing the way. Um, on a in terms of this podcast and helping people right now immediately, um, getting consistent sleep, going to bed at the same time every day, getting up at the same time, um, and making sure that you have at least six to eight hours worth of sleep in our 24-7 uh economy. It's hard to sometimes make ourselves do that, but getting consistent regular sleep. Um journaling, I don't know if you had mentioned journaling. No, that's a great discipline to practice. That's very, very helpful for lots of folks. Um and if you want, I could do a real quick Christian meditation right now with us, if you would like. No way. Yeah, sure. Okay. Um, this is one I think that's that's super helpful. It's been surprisingly meaningful for me. Um, and I pull up meditations uh similarly uh lots of times when I'm uh feeling stress and it brings down my stress and increases my connection with the Lord dramatically. Um you start with picking a verse in scripture that's fairly small, right? Like, for example, um, well, I'm I'll start with a little joke. A friend of mine says, Don't do a Christian meditation on that verse, like Judas went and hung himself. Like, that's probably not a good scripture to uh go and meditate on, you know, or that verse that talks about the woman who drives the tent peg through the man's skull. Certainly, there are some scriptures that you might not want to meditate on this way. So be cautious. Um, the one I like is the one in Psalms where uh we're encouraged to be still and know that he is God, right? Um so the Christian meditation would be, and usually when I do it, I close my eyes because it it cuts off my visual um stimulation in my brain. You don't have to close your eyes. If you're meditating while you're driving, please don't close your eyes. Um, but you start with a scripture verse and you slow down saying it, right? Be still and know that he is God, and then you repeat it a couple of times to yourself. A lot of times doing it out loud can be helpful. Um be still and know that he is God, and then you break it into smaller pieces be still, which is pretty hard for me to do sometimes, but then it just makes me again, usually with my eyes closed, I do a body scan. What part of my body wants to move right now? I quiet that part, I make that part still. Be still and know. To know, not just hope, not just wish, to be confident, to be still and know that he is God, that the Lord, the creator of the universe is interested in me slowing down and acknowledging and being with him. And then in that place, once I've just slowed down and done that, then I imagine, literally in my presence, I imagine Christ looking at me and actually saying these words be still and know that I am God and I imagine what is his body language toward me. What is his facial expressions as he looks at me? And see, I don't know, I didn't have my watch. At least I wasn't looking at my watch right there. I don't know how long that was, but I imagine it was probably less than five minutes, right? This isn't something that you have to spend hours, you know, in a yoga position, right? Or rubbing your earlobes, going, goozfrabah. That's it, doesn't have to be that kind of meditation. It can be as simple as what we just did. And how many verses in scripture have the capacity to touch us on that level? I mean, it's 66 books worth of opportunities to just slow down and connect with the Lord that way. That is a very powerful and practical way to connect and improve mental health and connect that with your spirit as well.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

And it calms your nervous system.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Yes, it does.

SPEAKER_02 42:29

It really did.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

When you went to that still part, I will say, as somebody who fidgets a lot, I was like, oh my goodness. Focus on the part that's fidgeting and let it be still. That was difficult.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

Yeah, it can be hard. And yet when we do it, the impact is all of me. Right? It does, it slows me down.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

So and it's a practice. That's something to really, if you're new to doing something like that, this is where kindness is important. You say, okay, I was kind of all over the place. That was a bit hard, but I I did it. I gave it a try. And I'll try again tomorrow, or I'll try again, you know, and you just keep practicing and you get better and better at being able to still yourself and bring your focus in. And and so that's just part of it.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

I you mentioned it, Robert, um rest. Yes. What does proper rest actually look like? I don't know, this is the second time I ask you this question, but um, I hear a lot like um, like I hear my friends, like when they tell me no for something, right? They're like, oh, it's because it's my Sabbath. I'm like, great. And then like I ask them, like, how's your Sabbath? And they're like, uh, it didn't feel like a Sabbath. Like I rested, but so what are your tips? I I know we've talked about it before, but what are your tips on um Which recommendations on actually receiving spiritual rest, honoring your Sabbath, like how does that what is the best way to that how does that look like, excuse me? And how can you get fruits from it? Like actual fruits where it's like I'm feeling rested and I'm ready.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Well, I think that you identified it there towards the end, which is the fruit is going to be the evidence of if you did in fact rest, right? So if I am slowing down, but afterwards I don't feel rested, it probably wasn't rest, right? Um resting should energize you and recharge you, not expend you more or just be more of the same, right? And so, and I I think that if you are not feeling refreshed after a time of resting, uh, that's the area that we want to slow down and start looking at. What's going on there? Am I not able to set my mind on things that are life-giving? Right? Paul encourages us in Philippians to put our minds on things that are not only true, but things that are right and noble and excellent and praiseworthy. Uh, when my mind is on those things, it's encouraging, right? It's uplifting, it's it is energizing and rebuilding. If my mind is on, oh my gosh, I still have this to do, and I still have that to do, and I haven't finished this, and what about that? And what if I mess this up? And oh my gosh, that's not refreshing. That's not resting, right? That's still in that phase of uh repairing, if you will, andor maybe people pleasing, and or uh some of those other barriers that we talked about to uh being in good mental health. Um, I think that's the main thing. And then I have some very practical thoughts. We we call them in our work sleep hygiene, um, or rest hygiene, which is the stuff that we need to do often to give our body and our brain and our uh neurological system all the cues to wind down. Um, and it's things like turn off your screens. Yeah, I know. And of course, if you're watching us on a screen right now on News Flash, that includes this. As helpful as I think this is, I can't watch, I can't rest and watch my shows. You can listen, but when you listen, we live in a world that is unprecedented because throughout history, when the sun went down, it was dark. Right. That's not true in the world we live in anymore, right? And when you talk about screens, you literally have light coming directly into your eyes. Like right now, you've probably seen me glance down at my paper to prompt me and remind me of some stuff I've done to prepare. When I look at this paper, the light that comes into my eyes is indirect. It's hitting the paper, and then that doesn't send my brain the same signals as looking straight up onto a screen that has light coming directly in. Right. That that confuses my whole neurological system and doesn't really give me the wind-down cues. And so yeah, sleep hygiene is a big thing. And don't even get me started with caffeine and all the other stuff that interferes. So anyway, so what do you think? What do you want to add to this discussion, dear?

SPEAKER_02 48:06

Nothing. I think that was perfect.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

I doubt thank you guys. Yeah, well, I mean, that's a big thing. Um, I mean, it's funny because in school, like I remember with especially this was probably in middle school, like when the star was typically middle school, star tests are a much bigger thing then, because of the politiques and elementary too. I remember one thing that I don't know why this came to mind, but one thing that the teachers would always say when you're about to go to sleep, read a book at least one hour before you go to sleep, so you can have a well-rested night and stay off the screens. Um, and I was like, well, what a what a practice of like, imagine like keeping my whole Sabbath day like screen free, you know, and taking not just a break from like thinking of everything from work, but like being intentional either with my family or my home, um, whatever it may be. But it's it's something that I think we all kind of just because screens are so normalized that it's screens are everywhere, you know. Correct. Where it's just like if you try to take a date without screens, you're like, oh my goodness, like how, you know, how do I even function? But definitely good.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

What helps is if you're not being a perfectionist when you step into it. Oof.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

Yikes.

SPEAKER_02 49:30

I mean, literally. That's very significant.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

All right. Makes makes a lot of sense. So I wanted to talk about, as we're starting to wrap up, faith and mental health. Talked about this already a little bit, but I want to talk it about a little bit, a little bit more, excuse me. Um, how can churches become places for people to talk about struggles like anxiety, depression, burnout, grief, and emotional pain? I know we mentioned it, I want to say episode one, um, and how we mentioned like talking about it first, receiving it, because once we receive it well, or once we receive that individual well, like, you know, that invites more people to be more vulnerable and having vulnerable spaces. But is there anything else that you'd like to talk about or mention about these specific topics, like about anxiety, depression, burnout, grief, or emotional pain? Is there anything else you'd like to add to that?

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Well, I think we have to acknowledge right away a core belief that many Christians have, and they're taught that if you have a strong faith, that will somehow eliminate emotional struggle. That's a myth. In fact, if you really look at scripture, what you see is the exact opposite. The stronger your faith is, the more struggle you're gonna go through.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

Right. Um that's I think once we come to grips with that, then we can start to figure out well, then what are we gonna do with these emotional struggles, whether it's anxiety, depression, uh, stress, whatever it is. Um I think that is our starting place.

SPEAKER_02 51:25

I'm thinking of how Jesus is described as a man of sorrows and well acquainted with grief. And when we recognize that, it helps us to see that there's nothing wrong with us when we are acquainted with grief and and uh people who have sorrow. Um I think normalizing the reality that people can love Jesus deeply and have great faith and still experience clinical depression or panic attacks, that they're not, I mean, it's just what you were saying, but just putting it in some other words. And when it comes to grief, a lot of times I think sometimes the church in a very well-meaning way communicates that if you are sad, you're missing the fact that your loved one is in heaven. And there's this encouragement to let's have a celebration of life, which I think is beautiful. But sometimes the people who have been, you know, the spouse or the kids, they aren't ready to celebrate right now. They're still very sad. And so I think being sensitive to and making it okay to say, I can sit with you in your sadness. If that's where you're at right now, let's be there. And if you're ready to celebrate, we'll celebrate. Because that's a beautiful thing that we have hope as Christians. And so I'm not trying to ignore that, but just um not trying to rush past the uncomfortableness of people having difficulties and and owning it. And I want to say particularly to leaders, to pastors, to to mentors and such, that I think when when we role model being very real about these things, then everybody else knows, oh, it's okay. Whereas if we keep this front up, I'm only gonna share it with people outside my church, because I don't want people inside my church to know, then there's just this culture that says if I gotta look really perfect to be considered doing well as a Christian.

SPEAKER_01 53:36

Absolutely. Thank you guys. Um so how can faith and counseling work together rather than compete with one another?

SPEAKER_00 53:48

I don't see them as competing. I think some people do, but I I don't see them as competing. I see them as complementary. I mean, I think scripture even encourages us uh to seek godly counsel, um to that uh the Lord equips us to counsel one another. Um, so but I presume you're talking a little bit about this distinction between kind of professional counseling and faith.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

Uh yeah, but I think maybe it's just the like the connotation behind it. But I think when I don't think it's always received well. Like, for example, when it says, Oh, like I'm I'm seeking counseling or therapist, it's like, what's wrong with you?

SPEAKER_02 54:33

Yeah, yeah, right? Do you think it even scares some people? Like, okay, careful.

SPEAKER_01 54:37

Yeah, I think it would even like um, like I think people say, Oh, like you're really struggling with that. When it's just like, no, like, I mean, like, not necessarily, like it doesn't have to be that, but I think because of the culture, you seek counseling and therapy when what you're struggling with is at an extreme. So, like, how can we normalize that, I guess? And how like, how does it actually work with faith, if that makes sense?

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Like, well, I think if you approach it certainly from the perspective of counseling is never designed or intended to be a replacement for your faith or a substitute for your spiritual life with the Lord, that it is a way to understand how your faith impacts and influences or is has not been impacting or influencing your emotional and mental states, um, it's that place where those two intersect. That's how I see that they go together. If you try to replace one with the other, and I think that goes either way. If you try to replace your mental and emotional uh well-being, try to diminish that so that your faith increases, I think you're missing something. Likewise, I think if you try to diminish your faith and replace it with mental and emotional, you're missing something. I think the idea is that these are designed to work together and be integrated as opposed to something that is replacing or competing with the other, right?

SPEAKER_02 56:23

So And my thought is that there most Christians that I know that I've been exposed to, I know that there are there are some and some denominations who don't agree with this, but for the most part, we don't have problems when people go to a dentist or when they go to, you know, like a chiropractor or something, you know, because you're you're needing some help. Right. Um and we can still see that as not competing with our faith. We may even pray about that before we go, pray that we they would give the professional the skill that they need to diagnose and help and figure out what's going on. And I think a lot of counseling, it's much in the same way. Like we may be having a problem that stems from something going on in our brain or in our nervous system. We've had some trauma that's kind of stuck in the body. And so in that same way, we're prayerful over that, that God would be it's his healing power that's always at work, whether it's, you know, at the dentist office or in a counseling room. So it I just think it can be very complimentary, like you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

You know, when put it in the way that you said, like obviously you want to go to the doctors before the main issue becomes a big issue, right? Because then it's just like, whoa, this became a huge thing. And so when you put it that way, it really normalizes it, it makes it feel so, in my opinion, normal. And it's just like, it's okay to, you know, if you're feeling overwhelmed about something and can't, you know, pinpoint it. Go talk to someone, you know, it's it makes it very normal. Alrighty. So to finish up and wrap up, I want to ask you guys one last question. We were just talking about therapy and counseling. So what would you say to someone right now who's feeling guilty or maybe even a little scared to go and seek counseling? What would you guys say to that individual?

SPEAKER_00 58:26

Gosh. Uh, I would just try to encourage them to be like, um, first of all, the things that you're experiencing that you're considering seeking help for, um, you're not alone. And usually the thing that prevents people or scares people from seeking out help is they feel like they're a freak, right? They're unique. You know, if if only my faith were stronger, I wouldn't be experiencing these things. And that's just not accurate. Um and typically when folks come to see us and they are feeling nervous, they're like, How is coming here gonna help, or how is just talking about it gonna help? Um, and I just remind people listen, scripture encourages us, I think it's in Peter that says, bear one another's burdens and therefore fulfill the law of Christ. Okay. How can I bear burdens with you if you do not share your burdens? So counseling really is about coming to be with other people and sharing burdens together so that we, as your brother and sister in Christ, can bear those burdens with you. That's where the healing takes place. The Holy Spirit shows up and does amazing, powerful things when we do that.

unknown 59:59

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:01

That's beautifully stated. I'm thinking on a little different practical level as far as like, I don't know what the fears would be of that person, but I want to say some people have the misconception that you're going to go to professional counseling and you're going to be told what to do or how to do it or how to think. And I want to say that is not what professional counseling is supposed to be about. Um, it's really less advice giving and more being in the journey with you, removing your aloneness, giving you support, maybe asking questions to help help you move along in your journey. But a lot of times people just imagine somebody's gonna tell me what to do. Right. And just know that if you have a counselor who's doing that, you can just say, this isn't a good fit. I'm gonna go to another counselor. It you're not like stuck. You can go once, you can be very upfront and say, I'm a little nervous about counseling. I don't know if I'm gonna like this, but I just wanted to try it for a session. That's totally fine. You can also bring a friend. I've had many people come for the first time and say, I brought my mom, I brought my friend, I needed moral support. That's great. So if you can like get creative and figure out what would help you feel more comfortable, just to give it a try, um there's a lot of latitude for that. It's it's not the same as going to like a medical office where they might be like, nope, only the patient's allowed in here or something. It's not like that. Um, and then also you can like, like I'm saying, you can change therapists until you find a good fit. Because the most important thing actually about the counseling process is that your relationship with the therapist is good, that there's trust, you feel heard and understood, and like you're getting what you needed. And it's totally okay to shop around for that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

Perfect. Thank you, guys. Appreciate it. Yeah. And, you know, I think one thing that we've um one thing I've been learning throughout this whole series is, you know, uh, or especially in this episode, is that leadership isn't just about what you can accomplish, but it's about becoming, it's about who you're becoming. And of course, a big part of that is um who God created us to be. And that means paying attention to your emotional, mental, and your spiritual health. And so thank you for always joining us. And um, I just hope that whoever's listening um has um been able to take away a couple things and learning as much as I've been learning. And so this is another episode of Connection in Progress, and we will join you for our next one. Thank you, guys.