SPEAKER_03 0:15

Welcome back to another episode of Connection in Progress. And today we are continuing our series, The Silent Battle With Him. And actually, this is our last and final episode. Super excited. And so for this episode, we decided to do something a little bit different. This episode will be a Q ⁇ A, question and response, because we don't always have all the answers to everything. And so we asked people that have been tuning in, that have been listening, that have been involved in the podcast, and just been asking them for questions, different questions, and also a lot of research of um anything that they may want to ask. And so the context of these questions are questions that people ask quietly, think silently, questions that people ask or think of late at night, questions that people may be afraid to say out loud. And so we're ending this series with a Q ⁇ R conversation. Healing always begins somewhere. And it begins with someone willing to ask a question. And so that is what we're doing for today. And we're joined by Robert and Kia Hart. Super excited to have you guys today. And as we walk through some of these questions, um, Kia and Robert will be answering these questions. And I will be as if I'm asking, like from personal, and a lot of these are you know personal questions as well. That I'm like, I'll be taking notes on the side as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

And so, and so um that was awesome. We did. Okay, it's time just coming into prayer. Got to prayer. I think before I do any more introductions, we should just pause for a moment and pull.

SPEAKER_03 2:03

I will do that. Okay, before I continue any further, because I have been struggling with this, um, let's just jump into prayer and prayer for this conversation and for the Lord and Spirit to lead us. So we can all just pray together. Heavenly Father, Lord, thank you for this amazing and most beautiful day. Thank you for another day of life that you've given each and every single one of us, Lord. And right now, I just want to allow us to be able to focus on you, Lord. I pray that the spirit enters all of us, listening. I mean the speakers, Lord, me as well, Lord, as a host, and that you just enter us and fill us with your spirit, Lord, and be able to guide our thoughts, guide our words, and be focused on you, Lord, because that's at the end of the day, what this is all for to be eyes focused on you and um take care of ourselves, Lord, through your spirit, Lord. So thank you for this time that we have, Lord. I pray for every listener. Thank you for um Robert and Kia for taking the time to do this, Lord, and um everything that you've done and all the work that you're doing, Lord. I pray that you can continue to shine a light on us, Lord, and that we could continue to be a shining light for you and your kingdom come, Lord. I pray all this in Jesus' name I pray. Amen. All righty. So for this question and response, um, it will be as if I am the person asking the question, whether if it's a weird question or important question that we may be having covered. And so um I will be transitioning between host and question asker, if that makes sense. Um, but I first want to talk about certain things about identity that we potentially amiss. But I think one of the biggest questions that people carry is whether what they're experiencing is normal. So I want to ask you guys can I love God and still struggle emotionally? I want to give this question to Robert.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Well, I think that question in many ways is self-evident when we even see the embodiment of our creator in Christ, right? Um if you recall, uh, it's a very emotional scene when Christ is in the Garden of Gethsemane. Um and one of the gospels records him saying to both his friends and to the father about his soul being overwhelmed to the point of death. Right. So obviously his emotional state there didn't in any way reflect his spiritual connection or disconnection from God, really, even from his friends. Um, it was an emotional state, and it was overwhelming to the point of death, even right. So uh yes, of course we can feel emotional distress, depression, anger, uh isolated. We can feel all of these things and still be fully devoted and committed to Christ and the Father. I mean, we we totally can, those are not synonymous with one another. So, and of course, we have an entire book. In fact, we have a couple of books. We have the book of Psalms or the Book of Lamentations, right? The very title of it shows us that these emotional states are not necessarily reflective of a poor spiritual connection with the Father.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

So add Ms. Kia.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

I'm just thinking about the statistics that I I pointed out in one of the previous podcasts. Lifeway had done um some research, and I think it was like 62% of pastors say they struggle with dealing with the stresses of their work, and it be it can become unhealthy, become difficult for them. And so I just think for a lot of people, if they even just look at themselves and they say, Do I love Jesus? And do I have some difficulties? We can see they go together.

SPEAKER_03 6:11

So, Miss Kia, is when I'm feeling normal or is it wrong of me? It tends to be a question that we always ask ourselves when we're struggling. How would you respond to that?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

God has made us so amazingly, our system so amazingly, that we have these emotions come up that are actually a sign of a functioning warning system. So when our emotions come up, they alert us that something needs attention. And that's not only normal, but it means that something's functioning well in the way we were created. If you imagine driving down the road and you have a light come up on your dashboard is the first thought. This cruddy car, why is it do why is it just flashing this light at me? You might think that if it's like about to fall apart and you don't really believe the light. But most of us would say, Oh, there's something we need to, we believe there's something that that's telling us we need to look at. It's helpful, it's good. We're glad it's there so that we can go figure out what's going on. And so I I really want to encourage people that when you're having emotions coming up, and maybe you don't know what it's about, maybe that's part of the confusion, is this doesn't feel normal. I don't feel like other people are having this emotion. Well, first of all, other people have had the same emotion. You just don't know because maybe you haven't talked about it or opened up with it. But it's just a matter of figuring out what is this pointing to? What is it that needs attention? So it's not only normal, but it's a sign that your your warning system is working.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Thank you. Nope, I don't want to add to that.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

All righty. For this next question, it's actually something I've struggled with before. And I kind of want to add a little bit to it. So, Miss Key, if you want to ask the answer the beginning part of it, and Mr. Robert, if you feel confident asking the second part of it. So, my question is why do I feel lonely when surrounded by people? But alternatively, I think there's also when you're around people, you get this kind of like high feeling, like a happy feeling, you're feeling connected. But then when you're outside of that, you get into this very potentially maybe dark place or lonely place, which it's like, it's like, whoa, how come I'm I'm feeling so, so, so lonely? You know, and I just saw them, you know, maybe like 30 minutes ago. It's something that, you know, I actually have talked with a friend about and like he that he struggled with it too. And so what would you what would you tell somebody that has that feeling?

SPEAKER_00 8:52

So the first part of the question, I'll address that. Um loneliness or not feeling lonely is a matter not of the proximity to people, but it's connection to people. So we can be around people and we can be masking, we can be pretending, we can be performing and not really letting them see what's happening inside of us. And we will feel alone if we're doing that. So there's a vulnerability needed to not feel alone when you're with people. Um I like the idea that just the visual picture of connection comes in a circle of people, not in a group of people. So there's something about looking into each other's eyes. Um, we talked about the concept in another episode about the word hesed, which is one person's face or God's face shining upon us with this idea of love exuding and interest and looking for another person. And so that's the kind of connection that we need when we're with people to not feel alone.

unknown 10:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

Remind me, what was the second half of that question? The second question, uh, it's something I was actually talking to with a friend. And so they weren't necessarily having like that feeling that they weren't getting connected, but they were feeling connected. Um, like when they were with people, they got into this like very high. Like it was amazing, they felt connected. And then all of a sudden, when it was like after the fact, it was like this increase of loneliness. And so at point it got them to like want to connect with other people more, but it was like a fake version of it, if that makes sense, because it wasn't with the same intentionality of like fellowship or connecting, but more of a I don't like this feeling of aloneness. Correct. So, how would you encourage someone through that?

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Well, and we've been talking throughout the series about this idea that, you know, internally paying attention to our internal cues is really important. Um, we're wired to be focused outside of ourselves. Um, but the scenario you just described is when a person is by themselves, they are so uncomfortable with themselves that they almost look for other people to either validate them or to approve of them or to accept them because they're probably not validating, approving, or accepting of themselves. Um, you know, and those are really strong, powerful shame messages, right? Right in the very beginning of the story of humanity uh in Genesis, we're told that God created us and we were naked and unashamed. I see that as super powerful and important because he could have said we were happy and safe, or there's a an infinite number of descriptors scripture could have used for us. Why unashamed? I think one of the core issues emotionally that people struggle with is shame, and that shame message often is the message you are not good enough for God to love you. Or if God really knew this about you, you would be not lovable, right? If other people knew Luis, if they actually knew who you were when no one was looking, not sure, right? Those are shame messages that and I I think of it like a coin on one side that we're too much, we're too needy, we're you know, uh the the example you gave was a person who, when they're by themselves, they're like, Oh my gosh, I gotta be around other people. Well, and when they get around in crowds, other people are probably like, Whoa, that's a bit much. Back off. Well, that's the message, you're too much. Um, or the internal message of I'm not enough. If people knew how much I needed, or if people knew the sadness, the the disgust, the the horrible things that I feel and think, then they they wouldn't want to be around me. Those shame messages God wants to address in us. He does, right? Because those are accusations, and we know that the Holy Spirit is not an accuser. We have an accuser, his name is Satan, right? So does that kind of get to some of the things we're talking about either?

SPEAKER_03 13:59

The next question we have is why do I feel guilty when others have it worse?

SPEAKER_00 14:06

So I kind of like the fate the phrase comparative grief to think of that concept. And it's it's a trap. It's the idea of feeling we like we don't have the right to feel tired or sad or overwhelmed by our own like daily burdens because others X, Y, and Z. And if you I've actually heard people struggle with this, if you take it to the nth degree, what Jesus went through, nothing I'm going through compares to that. So I don't have the right to feel anything. And if you're living in that kind of belief system, yeah, you're never gonna feel okay about having any kind of negative emotion because you're comparing it to what Jesus went through. Or it could be, and I've been guilty of this before, just thinking about just the really difficult things happening. You know, there's traffic to children, you know, there's all sorts of terrible crises in the world, and and thinking about the people in those situations and then thinking, oh, I don't have anything bad. And it's one thing to get perspective and realize and allow that to remind you to be grateful for the things you have going on, but that doesn't erase the fact that you are having something that makes you sad. Our nervous systems do not know anything about the statistics in the world of what's going on.

unknown 15:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

It doesn't have that, it just knows you're having a warning signal go off, you're having emotions and you need attention to something. And that is okay. And that is something that it's important that we actually tend to and pay attention to.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Yeah. Well, I just I want to beat the drum one more time about the issue of shame, because I think a lot of times we use the words shame and guilt interchangeably, but they're not the same, right? Guilt is about something I've done or not done, right? It's it's about my actions or behaviors. Um, when I do wrong or do sinful, well, God has a mechanism inside of us that's called guilt, right? I I hope I feel guilty if I steal. I hope I feel guilty if I lie to my wife. I those are signs that the Holy Spirit, in fact, dwells inside of me, but they're correctable. Both of those things I just listed are correctable, and so hey, when I correct them, where's my guilt? It's gone. Shame goes to a deeper level, and shame is not about what I've done, it's about who I am, right? And in Christ, we are new creations, we are made whole, uh, not because we earned it because of what we've done or not done. He has transformed us internally. So when I think about feeling guilt when other people have it worse, I think, oh, that sounds actually more like shame. And I want to be able to help people recognize that because that's not about what you have or haven't done. That's not about what other people have or haven't done. That's about a feeling, a sense of who you are. Uh, so let's get some right understanding to who you are, because God loves you, He loves me and He loves you, and He has made a way to be secure in that. And you don't have to be perfect to have that security. You don't.

SPEAKER_03 17:48

So since you have been talking a lot about shame, Robert, I want to ask, how can someone tell the difference between conviction and shame?

SPEAKER_01 17:57

Ah, conviction. Uh it's it is very much the thing we were just talking about. That has to do with my actions, right? Again, if I am uh breaking the law or if I'm breaking a commitment to another person, that that's my behavior, right? Um shame again has to do with my essence. Who am I? Am I a part of the body of Christ, or am I not a part of the body of Christ? Um, so and if I am a part of the body of Christ, what does that mean? Um I uh there's so many different examples there, you know. I'm just thinking of, you know, I'm a part of the heart family, right? Even if I act terribly, I'm still a heart, right? I it my actions don't affect my status in the family, it affects my relationships, it affects how much people like me or don't like me, right? It affects how much people want to be around me or don't want to be around me, but it doesn't affect the fact that I'm Robert Hart in the Hart family. Um shame says, uh you just jeopardized your status in the family. You're not even, you're not a Hart. You're a Sanchez, you're uh, you know, Mick Williams, that's who you are, right? I'm like, no, but that's exactly what shame wants to do. It wants to say, you've lost your position in the family, you've literally surrendered it, or you are no longer worthy of being in the family. Um and and I get it, sometimes it feels like those can bump up right next to each other because certainly, you know, did Jesus walk around and say, you know a fruit or you know a tree by its fruit, right? And so if a tree doesn't bear fruit, is it a good tree? And so this is where actions and and connection and or uh community come into play here. Um but we're also instructed in scripture to let God be the judge of that, right? That we're not supposed to be the ones determining who's in the family, who's not in the family, right? That's a decision for the Lord. Yes, we can observe fruit or no fruit, but so when we're we're circling back to the idea again, guilt versus shame. Well, you you distinguish them here in this question between conviction versus um shame. A lot of it really also comes down to the idea of what's the message internally? If my message internally is an accusation, you can practically rest assured at that point it's not conviction, right? Because the Lord doesn't accuse us. He reveals stuff to us, he shines a light on stuff, but he doesn't accuse us. Satan accuses us. So I I that's probably the simple and easiest distinction between conviction and shame. Uh conviction is totally just a hey, sure looks like you're stealing or lying there, and we know that's not right. We know that misses the mark, that's sin. Um, that can be corrected. The shame message is really that's the way Christians act. Right. That's not conviction, that's accusation, that's shame.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

I had a thought on that too. Is that okay?

SPEAKER_02 21:53

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Um you can tell me if you think differently on this, but I think that all Also, an indicator is that when conviction is coming from God, there's a sense of wanting to repent from that, wanting to repair if something, you know, if there's been a rupture with someone, of wanting to bring it out and work with it. Whereas if it's what was it we were doing? Conviction and shame. If it's shame, you want to hide. So think if you feel yourself wanting to hide away, there's a good chance that that's a shaming message. But if you sense that it's like driving you towards life-giving, healthy repair, there that's an indicator that more likely it's conviction.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

No, I completely agree with that. One moves you away from people uh and away from the light, and one moves you toward people and into the light. I like that distinction.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

Thank you. Um, we have a couple questions about healing. I think everyone wants healing, but healing doesn't always happen the way that we expect. So, Barbara, I want to ask um, can I be healing and still have bad days? And how would you encourage somebody that is having bad days?

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Excellent question. And I've wrestled with that very thing in my own life. So I think we all have at some point. Um I've come to a place not only in my practice, but in my life, where for sure the answer is of course you can be in the process of healing and still be hurting, right? So um I again I like to parallel physical health and healing with emotional and mental health and healing. Um, there are some injuries that once they occur may not continue to bring physical pain and or uh potential um infection or death to me. However, some injuries change me, right? Um, so uh I'll show this example, right? If I've lost my finger, when exactly am I going to heal? Right? And it's like, well, I I need to kind of re-examine what my definition of healing is, right? Because okay, it's not bleeding anymore, so it's healed, but my hand is different. So healing is gonna be this whole combination of, well, certainly no more bleeding, hopefully no infection. Um, but it's probably not gonna look like having five intact fingers. It's gonna look like something different, and that's gonna affect how I shake hands, how I pick things up, um, how I maneuver things. It it just affects all of those things. So recognize that healing a lot of times is gonna be dependent upon, and uh it's gonna be dependent upon assessing how significant has the trauma or the injury been so that I can adjust uh my expectations around that.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

You want to add to that?

SPEAKER_00 25:33

No, I think that was good.

SPEAKER_03 25:35

So, Miss Kia, this question is for you. How do you know when you're actually making progress?

SPEAKER_00 25:43

It's so broad, progress. A lot of different things you could think about. But I like that question. Um, there's a lot of different ways a person could notice progress. A very succinct way to look at it is the three measurements of frequency, duration, and intensity. So if you were struggling with, ah, I lose my temper. And maybe you still lose your temper, but it's not as often. Well, there's progress. Maybe you lose your intent your temper, but you get over it in two minutes instead of 15 minutes. There's progress. Maybe you lose your temper, but the intensity of what you're lashing out used to be a level 10 and now it's a three. Massive progress. So all of those are things to look at, indicators that you could be making progress. But there's other ways too. Sometimes it's more subtle. It's like, oh, I noticed that I did something sooner. Sometimes I didn't realize it till a week later. Oh, shoot, I was doing that again. But as you make progress, you you notice it closer and closer to the event, and then eventually you notice it in the middle of the event, and then you can notice before, and you can, you know, begin to make those shifts. Yeah, but it takes time to move in that direction. So all of that is progress. Um, just even knowing what is happening can be progress. I mean, I don't know how many of you experienced that, but you just walk away and go, I don't know what just happened, but I'm very upset. You know, and then eventually when you've worked on yourself more, you're like, I know I'm very upset. It's because I was embarrassed, you know, it just takes a while to really recognize what's going on. So that's progress sometimes. Now I know what's going on. Um, it could be knowing what's needed. Okay. I had the same experience, but in the past I haven't known how to help myself to after that. Now I feel like I know more how to help myself. That's progress. Um, reaching out for help sooner. Maybe in the past I wouldn't reach out for help. Or I'd wait until every my whole life had blown up. Now I'm reaching out when things just started to feel out of control. That's progress. Those are all real signs of progress. I'm kinder to myself now. Sometimes that doesn't feel like anything to anyone, but it's huge, you know, the same thing's happening, but I'm not beating myself up for it. I'm not echoing the words of the enemy towards myself. I'm actually choosing to be compassionate as Jesus would be with me. So I think I could go on and on with these different ways that we could find that there's progress happening.

unknown 28:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

I would I would just add and tie that in with scripture to say the example that we see in the New Testament or an example of it is when Jesus tells the parable of the sower, right? He's doing that in context of spiritual growth and development, saying, look, some seeds go on the go on the sidewalk where quickly birds come and they don't grow into anything. Some go into shallow soil, they quickly sprout up, but then they die off. Some go among the weeds, they grow up, but they get choked out by the worries. And then some get on good soil and they produce a harvest 10, 100, 1000-fold. But the thing is, that's fluid. It's not like a line moving from the sidewalk to a good harvest. It's like, no, sometimes those seeds fall in good soil. And there's seasons of life where it's all really shallow. And there are seasons of life where they get choked out, and seasons where it just bounces right off of me. And I think we're supposed to constantly be in this self-reflective place to say, where am I now? And how can I move down to those other more mature places? So that's also how I see progress.

SPEAKER_03 29:59

So how do we trust God when our emotions don't seem to be improving?

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Well, I think we can trust God when we're open and honest with Him about our feelings, like David in the Psalms, who cried out, Lord, where are you? Have you forgotten me? Um or like Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane that we talked about earlier. So it's not a matter of, well, I'm trusting God once I get rid of these feelings. I'm trusting God once I'm not anxious anymore. It's can I know that God is on the throne even as I'm going through this? Can I trust that he is with me in this? It's not so much for precisely what the outcome will be, but it's more that he is God and I am his as I go through this. And sometimes we could even doubt that. And the great thing is we can tell God that too. I'm I'm doubting even that. And he's patient with us and he's in the process with us, and he doesn't reject us because we have a doubt. And so I think it's just really being honest with him in the midst of it.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

According to him, right? It's really encouraging. Yeah. Well, and I think it's helpful here to also remember the metaphor that God uses of himself toward us is a family. Right. Um, I'm not trying to out any of my children, but I can recall times where in the midst of difficulties, my kids have said they hated me, and they were just sure that I hated them. Right. Um, they were having very powerful emotions that did not make them any less my son or daughter, that did not make them any less a part of our family. And so, as a loving parent, when I'm at my best, I am patient with them, I contain them, I'm sturdy, and I'm like, I'm sad that you feel that way. And I patiently wait for them to get regulated, if I'm going to use counseling therapy terms, and then I step into that place, even though I never left them, I rejoin them because they come back and we repair. And that's the model that God gives us throughout scripture, spiritually and emotionally, that we have with Him any and everywhere, right? That in those scenarios we struggle in the same way that our kids have struggled, but God doesn't struggle with it. Right. Um, we'll get through this together. Because remember the old and new testament concept that he will never reject or abandon us. That is security, right? That's the message translation, right? He will never leave us or forsake us. And that's that's how we have trust and security in the Lord, even though we're still struggling.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Um I have a follow-up. I think everything that you guys have been explaining is clear to show that it's a process. It's a process that takes time. And celebrate your wins when you can, and um and don't beat yourself up too much when you know you maybe fail. But I want to ask, what does healthy patient what does healthy patience look like during recovery?

SPEAKER_00 34:05

I'll let you tackle that one. What does healthy patience Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

Because the the previous question was like, how do we trust God when our emotions don't seem to be improving? Um how do we know that you're actually making progress? So how does that healthy patience kind of show during recovery?

SPEAKER_00 34:34

I'm thinking about just the word patience and what it looks like when that's played out. Patience doesn't rush someone in a process. Patience meets someone conveys acceptance of where they are. It doesn't necessarily mean this is where we want to stay, doesn't mean this feels good, or even is the healthiest place to be in. But it's it's an okayness with being there for right now, knowing that something will shift. This is a season, something will shift. We will not be stuck here forever forever. So I think patience with others in the process, in many ways, looks like not trying to rush them past it. And that can be really hard and really uncomfortable, especially if you see somebody in a place where they they maybe are harming themselves or it feels like they're harming others. That's a really difficult task. And it doesn't mean you don't take safety measures or you don't do sometimes some concrete things that need to be done. Right. Um I don't know. That's the thing that comes to my mind first.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

You know, the the biblical metaphor that I'm seeing when I hear this is the man who comes to Jesus and he says, Lord, if you're able, would you heal my son? And Jesus' response is, if I'm able, you know, oh ye of little faith, if you just had faith, and he goes, I do have faith, and please help me with my lack of faith. He had both. He had the desire to trust God with all of it, and he simultaneously had a lack of trust. That's the place of health that we accept that both happen at the same time, right? And there's less there's more subtle examples of that all throughout scripture, right? When Peter is being restored back in his relationship to Christ, Jesus asks him three times, right? Hey Pete, do you love me? And Pete's like, Lord, of course I love you. Of course I do. And of course, the connection there is back to the, well, if you did, how come you denied me three times? That's the clear implication here. Was Peter he was both being restored and fully right with the Lord and simultaneously not at all right with the Lord, right? They're both coexisting. I think healthy patience in difficult times looks like being willing to accept both the unfinished parts of us that aren't yet healed and complete, and uh looking forward to the time and having the confidence and assurance that God is making all things new, that they they both coexist and accepting that we may be more on one side of that than the other at any given point, but that they both exist, and that's maturity, right? That's hard. So, and I'm not I don't always navigate that excellently, as my wife, I'm sure, could give lots more examples of that, but um, I think that's what a healthy response is trying to embrace things that don't seem to go together, how they go together.

SPEAKER_03 38:26

Perfect, thank you guys. So I want to pivot a little bit. Um, we have quite a bit of questions about boundaries. We have a couple questions about boundaries and support. Sometimes our great struggles happen in relationships with ourselves and with others. And so, Mr. Robert, I want to ask, why do I feel guilty for setting boundaries?

SPEAKER_01 38:51

I think the simplest, and simple isn't always correct or accurate, but it's understandable. But the simplest answer and quick answer to that is as a Christian, is there ever a time where it's okay to say no to the Lord? And the answer, of course, is no. There's only one answer. In fact, in my head, I hear the song, Yes, Lord, yes, Lord, yes, yes, Lord, right? I never hear the song, no, no, Lord, no, right? And so I'm conditioned as a Christian to only say yes. Right. And so when it comes to relationships, saying no gets really hard because I'm conditioned to only say yes. Because if you ask me to do something or instruct me to do something, then there's all these other connotations that come in that, right? Well, if my wife asks me to do something, if I say no, then am I being a good husband?

unknown 40:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

Right? Am I being a good friend? Oh suddenly now, because it's more blessed to give than receive, right? Therefore, I can never receive. I have to only give. I think all those messages lend to it is very difficult to say no. And boundaries often come down to saying no. Right. Right. Um, should I sign over all of our retirement savings so that people can eat in a country where they don't have enough food? Isn't wouldn't that be a good thing for me to do?

unknown 40:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

Of course it would be a good thing to do. It would be at the expense of my own family. Oh, but is that selfish? I'm only thinking about me and my family. This is why boundaries get difficult for people, because often the things that they're being asked to not have boundaries on are good things, right? Feeding the hungry, uh, taking care of the widows and orphans is a thing we're supposed to do. And yet I have other things I'm also supposed to do. So finding where that is is the big challenge as it relates to boundaries. But I think that's why we have such a hard time with boundaries, is because we're not conditioned to say no, we're only conditioned to say yes. You want to add to that?

SPEAKER_00 41:42

The only thing I'm thinking about is just, I guess, because we did foster care at one point. Um, and they're always asking you to take more kids and more kids and more kids. And it's such a hard thing to have a boundary because it feels like such a good thing to take kids in. And but I was just thinking about the idea of capacity and mental health. And so when we look at ourselves and we recognize, well, what's going on inside of me? Am I burning out? Am I blowing up easily? You know, how is this actually going? It just is so important to have some boundaries. So I think it is just confusing because that we tie it into moral things, and then it just feels like it's a God thing, and then it feels wrong to say no. It is just difficult.

SPEAKER_03 42:40

Thank you guys. So I think this is this next question, it's a big one. I especially, you know, if you're a small group leader, I mean, anyone. Well, this question comes if you're a friend, small group leader, and then a position of leadership that people are coming to you, you know, maybe because of our experience, we may actually have the answer to certain things. But it's not for us to force someone, you know, to figure out, right? It's our job to kind of help people and guide people through. But I want to ask, um, how do you support someone who's struggling without trying to fix them? I'm gonna ask you, Miss Kia, what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Well, I love that question. And I love that you're actually saying that maybe there's some merit to trying not trying to fix it. Because I think for a lot of people right there, they don't even know that part. Um, so supporting someone, um, first, I think it's important to learn to be okay within yourself with other people having difficult emotions. So just being able to sit with somebody feeling anxious or worried and be able to tolerate that. Right. So if you can't tolerate that, that's your own inward work to figure out why can't why can't I tolerate that they are feeling this? So that would be. Maybe a beginning thing to work on within yourself. Um, you know, I think about the scripture, weep with those who weep. So just this idea of when you're weeping with someone, often you make contact, physical contact. You might put your arm around them, even just leaning or something.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Um I like where this is going.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

And just conveying that their feelings are real. A lot of times people can confuse um truth with real. So people will want to resist validating someone's feelings because they say, well, your feelings are based on something not true, or but it's not true, this thing isn't true. So your feelings aren't valid. So I'm going to resist comforting you. But we can say, hey, this is what you heard, and this is what your experience was, and you are feeling this, and I believe you, and that matters to me. Let me comfort you in that. And then maybe after there's been connection and comfort and the person feels heard and seen and believed, there might be a moment later to say, can we talk about as a third party what I heard? Or, you know, we might be able to address something else. But first, just recognizing something real is happening in this person. And I want to meet them in that rather than try and get them out of that right away.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

Yeah. You know, there's a picture that I often draw on my whiteboard when we're talking about uh this concept of supporting and helping people. And it the picture that I draw is of a weightlifter. Okay. Um, when somebody's lifting a weight that is too heavy for them, they need help. Okay. Do you know what we call the helper? Spotter. A spotter, right? Does the spotter lift the weight for the individual? No, they absolutely don't. But they but they assist them, right? That's what support looks like. If I'm lifting more of a person's weight than they are, I am no longer spotting. I'm doing something else. There's a difference in uh bearing burdens with someone and bearing burdens for someone. For someone is fixing them. Oh, let me dig that hole for you on your behalf. Let me carry you. Your leg is broken, jump on my back, and now I'll walk for both of us. That is very different than coming alongside of you and putting my arm around you and saying, when you step on your left leg, put less weight on it and put more weight on my shoulder. I'm not bearing all of your weight. I am bearing some of the weight. That's the difference in my mind between fixing and supporting.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

So if I'm supporting someone and I how should I at one point where I want to talk about that point to where I can no longer support this person, right? Um in your metaphor, where I can no longer be a spotter for this person. Maybe they need somebody different. So when should I, at one point, should I encourage someone to maybe seek further help, whether if it's professional, um, counseling, whatever it may be, when is that point of like I can no longer be your spotter?

SPEAKER_01 47:39

I I try to make this one simple. It's it's not this in 100% of cases, but I think this is a good baseline to start from. I call it three strikes or three sport, three spots, right? If I go to the gym with you, and every time I go, you keep trying to lift the same amount of weight, but you're unable to. And the other person may or may not accept it, but I've spotted them and I've given them an alternative. Spot one. Spot two, they're doing the same thing. Wait a minute. Uh, here I am. Didn't we just do this last week?

SPEAKER_02 48:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Uh thought that happened. Uh tell me what you've tried. Oh, you didn't try any things I said? Well, what stopped you? You I need you to try something different here. Right. Right? Hey, great. We show up on week three. We're having the same song and dance the third time around. At that point, I would say, I think you need to find another spotter. That's when I say, that's when you refer out for professional help. Hey, I stepped into it with you. I also coached you and gave you some other options and you didn't seem to try them. Maybe you need to try someone else. I I think that's a good rule of thumb. It's not neglecting or abandoning someone, but it's also just recognizing, hey, that's what that's the place I am. Now, I pair that in my mind with Paul saying, decide in your heart ahead of time what you're willing to give, right? Don't give out of a sense of obligation or compulsion, right? Because God loves a cheerful giver. Well, the other person might put pressure on me. They might even try to throw some shame or shade at me, right? Oh, well, if you're a Christian, you'll just keep spotting me. If you're a Christian, you won't give up on me. Oh, wow. That sure sounds like manipulation. Right, right. I've decided I was gonna give you three tries, and we're still having the same conversation. You need more than what I can give you, right? So that's where that's the place I would encourage you to be. And that's how I would encourage people to say, how do you decide when somebody needs more than what you can give? Well, that I think that's a good rule of thumb.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

I think that's all absolutely true. And I I think um in some contexts. And I think there's also other contexts where it it really is something to figure out, as far as like, you know, we've talked in other episodes about this idea of sometimes the church can send a message of, hey, you've come to me three times now with the same issue, and it's not better yet. And almost what's saying, what's wrong with you? I told you to pray more, I told you to read the Bible more, I told you to do these things and you're not fixed. That's a problem. And some issues are gonna be lifelong struggles. So I think what you're saying is completely accurate in some context for some certain things. And then there's other things where it could be that I help you for a while, and then another brother or sister in Christ helps you for a while, and then I come back around and help you for a while, and we do continue helping because it's not like this person isn't working and isn't, you know, doing their part. It's just something that's gonna be an ongoing struggle. And so it just kind of depends on what the issue is. And you know, sometimes a person part of their issue is I'm always going to play a victim and and need help, and you don't want to play into that. And for other people, that's not at all their issue. So figuring those things out.

SPEAKER_03 51:50

I mean, I think I love how you mentioned that it's that's why it's important to really have a good group of people. Um, because you know, and this was always like I mean, it should be a general rule, right? But um, like that's why I will never lead a smoker by myself, right? Um, you know, obviously it's it's okay to if you're leading a smoker, that's totally fine. But that's why it's always important to have that level, different levels of accountability, because you know, I know some things make sense in my head, but it's not always gonna work the same way for other people. That's why I always love having like two to three that, you know, whether if it's I call them my co-leaders or you know, I've told them, like, hey, like you're doing this alongside me, because it takes a village. And so you can't do it all, and it's important to have that different group of people where it's like, hey, you know, this week is insane, and I know you need support right now, but you know, why don't you reach out to this person? You know, you know them, they're part of us, and you know, then you're not only empowering other people, but also give another spot or a try, you know, because then you can always carry that load all your own. So um, thank you guys so much for sharing that. I want to ask some questions that are typically asked from certain questions can be a little bit controversial, controversial. Oh my goodness. Um, but I want to ask, you know, many mental love controversy. I do too, you know. You know, many mental health questions eventually become faith questions. We've talked about this in almost every single episode. But what would you say to someone who thinks they should just pray more? Um, I don't want to obviously belittle the power of prayer because prayer is a powerful thing. Um, however, sometimes it can just be an action response. So you just gotta pray about it. Just pray more, you know. And it's like, you know, there's practical steps to almost to most things. So I want to ask you guys that question. What would you say to someone who thinks they should just pray more?

SPEAKER_01 53:57

My first response to that is if I've come to you, Luis, and said, you know, hey, um, here's what's going on, and you responded to me with that, um, not only would I be offended, but as a brother in Christ, I would come back to you to say, you are making a giant assumption about me. But you're not praying. Right. Um, and now you're sitting in a seat of condemnation over me when you don't know what's going on inside of me. All I did was bring to you my concern in this area. And you now judged me and condemned me for it, instead of going, hey, tell me what's going on. I'd like to know more. Because, see, just that very next step is now doing the thing that we've been sharing throughout this whole series is you're now bearing my burden with me. When I say pray more, that's the opposite of bearing a burden with you. That's basically saying, go away, bear your own burden and get give it to God. Let go and let God, if you will. And it's like, hey, you just left me alone in my struggle.

SPEAKER_02 55:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

You didn't join me in it. So the first thing I would say, yes, that is a very unhelpful statement to other people to say pray more in a vacuum, not helpful. And again, comes with lots of assumptions. So is there something else you want to add to that?

SPEAKER_00 55:42

I want to hear pray more. I want to say, okay, so where's the line of praying enough then? Like you can always say pray more.

unknown 55:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

And it's like, it's like when somebody says, Well, pray with fervency. Well, how fervent is fervent enough? It puts you in this place of like feeling like I'm not getting the formula right.

SPEAKER_01 56:03

Shame.

SPEAKER_00 56:03

And shame, yeah. And so I think it can be so valid to say, I'm wondering if you've prayed about this. I want to encourage you to take it to God because maybe somebody hasn't. And that's a great encouragement. But just saying pray more is probably not going to be a helpful response.

SPEAKER_03 56:24

And, you know, praying more, I think, comes with growth, right? Absolutely. I think like I and this is I have this conversation quite a lot. And it's funny because when I'm talking to my prayer wars, you know, that I go to these people because I need prayer, whatever I may be facing, and they'll tell me, like, you know, just the Lord revealed to me, like, I need to start praying more. And I'm like, wait, you revealed that you need to pray more? Like, I kind of imagine, you know, that I'm if you need to pray more, I'm not praying nearly enough, you know. But you know, I think it's important to note that, you know, obviously when you first start with your walk, and if you've been a growing, you know, growing your relationship with the Lord, you know, from that beginning, um, I'm hoping you can realize that you, your level of prayer has probably been a lot more different. And that comes with a lot of different things. Your relationship, you're, you know, you probably went from a time that you're praying, you know, at times to get in the habit of praying, to kind of moving prayer to a conversation, which is what praying is. And so, but that doesn't mean, you know, that doesn't mean that you're more or any less, you know, of that. So I think that's also important to notate that, you know, there's different seasons that are gonna probably require you to pray a lot a lot more, depending on, you know, what's going on in that season. But at the end of the day, it's all spirit-led. And I think that's that's also very important.

SPEAKER_00 58:01

I thought about the scripture that says pray without ceasing. I was totally thinking. And I was like, yeah, so we're we're working always to be in this constant connection with God, dialogue with God, hearing, bringing things before Him. Yes, but there's something about that phrase, pray more, that just feels like a real judgment, a prescription that separates you.

SPEAKER_03 58:26

And it was episode one, or episode two, whatever, that you said it's important to know that we are human first. And I think that's a reality of it, that we can pray as much as we'd like, but we are human, and there's always going to be struggles because sin is just everywhere, and so it's true, and pain is a part of our human experience, right?

SPEAKER_01 58:50

And so I know a big part of prayer is having a thankful and grateful attitude. And I just remind people okay, again, if I have a nail through my foot, is my heart still pumping? You know, is my shoulder still functioning? Yeah, that's not where my focus is, right? My focus is on this pain point that's going on in my foot. I think I need to attend to that so that I can be back in connection and grateful for the rest of me. But if you want to ignore the nail in my foot saying, come on, the rest of your body's all healthy. Come on, just pray more. You are not understanding me. You're not getting me. So we need to hopefully get each other.

SPEAKER_03 59:46

So I have a couple of a couple of rapid fire questions, maybe. Pew pew. Obviously, take as much time as you need. Um, but these are kind of short questions, and I want you guys as like first and honest response. Um, what should you never say to someone that is battling anxiety or depression?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:06

I think we just said more read your Bible more.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:12

Uh again, as a first response, I don't think you say those things. Um, because it's dismissive, it pushes people away as opposed to pulls them in. So that's my first that's selfish.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:26

I've heard people say that to people with depression. You're just being self-centered and selfish.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:31

Whoa. I didn't say that. I would break down if someone told me that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

Or get over it. How about that one? When are you gonna let it go? Just forgive. Be grateful. Yeah. Oh my goodness. And again, there's are there times where you say these things? Of course, there's a time and a place for it. As a first response, it's almost never gonna be a good thing or a healthy thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:00

And you know, I think you mentioned it earlier, like those one-liner responses really takes the grace out of everything. Um, we're first first called to show grace. Um, because Christ shows grace to us and we don't deserve it. And so who are we not to show grace? And so um, yeah, when I hear those, it's like, no, meet them where they're at, you know, see what's happening, what's going on, because they're called to be show grace.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:29

Well, and I just in my head, I just saw this list of the things that we talk about in therapy that block connection with other people. And it's a five-part list. It's problem solving, right? Fa answering back a person who's telling me about their emotional issue, and we respond with facts, logic, and reason. That doesn't help them, that alienates them, it pushes them away, blaming or criticizing, not helpful, pep talking, even when it's scripture, right? Well, God works together all things for good to those who love him. I guess you must not be loved by him, right? Oops. Um, is there a time to encourage people and use scripture? Absolutely. It's often not at the point of need or at the point of expression. Um, the other one I call it one upping, and we all know those folks, right? Oh gosh, you're really sad. Yeah, man, let me tell you about my sadness. It's way worse than yours. Um, not helpful. And then, of course, the last one, and truthfully, this last one I'm very guilty of. Um, just because I'm uncomfortable with it, I ignore it, or just change the subject, right? Any of those kinds of responses generally not helpful for building connection and relationship with folks, those are barriers to connection.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:11

My next question is what habit helps you? Whoa, what habit helps almost everyone?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:22

Now, remember earlier when I said one of the best things we can do is embrace things that don't seem to go together?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:29

Um, we've just been saying don't respond with pray more. Uh, what is a habit that we can do that helps almost anything? Prayer.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:38

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:38

I mean, so the irony in the midst of all this is I don't need to push you away with a phrase, and yet I'm also not diminishing the power of prayer. Of course, that's a habit that is gonna help pretty much anyone in pretty much any situation.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

So that was the first thing that came to my mind too. And then I thought of scripture, being in scripture, being in community.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:08

So um, now this one, prepare to be to roll your eyes, everyone. Prepare for it, right? Because this is the meme, the trope of therapy. You ready? Breathing.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:29

What were you expecting? You're gonna say something silly. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:32

Yeah, well, but isn't that the isn't that the mockery of therapy? Is that come on, just take a deep breath in through the nose, out through the mouth. But the truth is that's gonna help you because that regulates your inner neurobiology. It's you focusing on that which you actually control. So much of what brings about emotional distress is the things we cannot control. Yeah. And we forget to focus on, oh, wait, I can control my breath. And the truth is, I've been breathing very shallow, or I think we talked about in the first session, right? Um, that certain folks tend to hold their breath. Yeah. So breathing and focusing on our breath is often super helpful to most people in most circumstances.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:30

I'm choosing that with the kiddos. Um, I have a lot of kiddos in our MDO program, and um, I think sometimes they just get overwhelmed with emotion. And even if it may be something like small, it hurts their feelings. And so they start crying and they shut down. And the first thing I'm like, let's breathe together, breathe in, breathe out. And I'm like, I I can't help you or I can't try to understand you if you can't talk. So let's breathe first, and then you can tell me how you're feeling. And um

SPEAKER_00 1:06:00

Wow, breathe. It's so good. It's so good with them.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:03

I didn't realize like how important how helpful that was. Like I tried it once during a VBS and I was like, let's breathe before anything, let's breathe. And then then they were able to explain. And then you can even like use reasoning of like, you know, like, do you maybe like because if sometimes they're in the wrong, right? Um, and they're just maybe they didn't they didn't get their way. And so it's like, okay, let's breathe. And they tell me, I'm like, yeah, but doesn't it kind of seem like you're maybe you're maybe forcing somebody else to do this or do that? It's like, yeah, you're right. And it's just like, okay, like that was a win, you know? And so, but it starts with breathing.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:40

Yep. Well, and if you want to add, this is another thing you you can add with your kiddos. Um, have them put their hand over their heart and just say, hey, put your hand right here and then breathe and feel your heartbeat, feel your chest rise up with it. Because now you're actually adding a tactile sense. And then, and then you're redirecting their thoughts to be like, and remember, where does the Holy Spirit live? Oh my gosh. Right here. Yeah, let's be reminded of that. It slows everything down biologically, and that's going to help almost anybody in any elevated state of distress, whether it's anxiety or depression or anger or any of that.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:23

So we should do breathing exercises as soon as we come into the office. I think it's what we're needing.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:29

For a lot of people connecting with creation, I was just thinking, El Paso, we don't have like a lot of trees or water, but we do, and even just laying your eyes on them can do something for a lot of people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:46

Um next question. What do you wish every listener knew today?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:53

Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:57

Well, I mean it's the truth, but it's simple. And that God loves you. Um I it's to me, this is the summary of the gospel. That God will never reject us or abandon us. That is what I wish every person knew. And it's the reason why I follow the Lord because He's not holding a tally, waiting to go, oh, that was the final one. I'm done with you. He's not looking for me to screw up, he's looking at me, going, I love you, and I want to have a relationship with you. That's what I hope everyone who would watch or listen to us know. Um, because in that you're going to find peace, you're going to find comfort, um, and recognizing that our access to that is available on the inside through the Holy Spirit. Now, obviously, that's not gonna fill my belly, I still need to eat, it's not gonna fill my lungs, I still need to breathe despite the song that it's your breath in our lungs, right? Um, that's actually also oxygen that we do still need. However, the all of this other stuff, and this is where all the the emotional, the spiritual, and the physical meet in all of this. Um, but there's such a big overlap between the spiritual and the emotional that to me, the one thing I hope everyone knows is that God loves you and that he will never leave you or reject or abandon you.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:48

So wow. My last question of the series.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:54

I thought that was the last one. Oh, okay. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:56

Oh, that was the last question of the bullet round, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:59

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:00

Sorry, I forgot my structure. That's all right. Our last question of the series. After everything we've talked about in this whole entire series, I want to ask you guys, what is one truth that you hope people remember when they're struggling?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:18

I don't know if anything comes to mind first.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:23

I can't get my mind off of adding something to what you said earlier. It kind of fits this too. Say it. Just that we love because he first loved us. I mean, it's basically what you were saying, but I'm just so um convinced that receiving his love is the start of everything good, of healing, of hope, of being able to be the people he created us to be in community. So my mind was just on that. So it kind of fits.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:00

The question again is what's the one thing after everything we've discussed in this entire series, what is one truth that you hope people remember when they're struggling?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:10

Um, it's these are connected. It's maybe the same, kind of like with shame, it's a coin with two sides. Um, this is the same way. Um, but it's that on one side of the coin is uh you're not alone. You're not. Whatever you're going through, I assure you you're not alone. Um but then you may say to me, but wait, I feel alone, I am, and that's the other side of the coin to say uh you don't need to be alone, right? Your experience is your experience, however, it's not good for you to be alone in the experience, right? We need one another. Please allow other people to know you and to know what you're going through. Um, and I'm not saying that as a I'll take off my counseling hat. I'm not saying that as a counselor, like you need a counselor to be the one to go through that with you. I'm saying that as a human to other humans, we need one another. And please allow other people in to know you and get to know other people so that you will know you're not alone in it because you're not, and you don't have to be alone in it. Whatever it is, sadness, pain, anger, disappointment, betrayal, all of it. Right? Christ experienced all of these things, and he wants us together to be an agent of healing in each other's lives as the body of Christ. So please don't walk through it alone.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:57

Amen. I was sworn between one of the things that I remembered though, this whole podcast. Definitely that one that healing doesn't have um that you're never alone, but also I mentioned in this episode, um you're a human first, but also healing is different for everyone, and healing um doesn't happen the same, and healing looks different, and the type of healing that you want is important as well. So I always think back to your leg example or your finger example that if you're missing a leg, you're not gonna heal yourself a whole leg, right? And so um, thank you guys. Um, throughout the series, you know, we've learned that mental health isn't a lack of faith and healing isn't a weakness, and asking for help isn't failure. The silent battle becomes a little less silent when we choose to be honest and we remember when we choose to have, I'm sorry, when we choose to have silent conversations, uh honest conversations. Thank you for joining us. This has been our series, The Silent Battle Within. And always remember you don't have to go through your struggles alone because connection doesn't stop on a sudden. Thank you guys, and we'll see you guys next time.