Anne Sucks at Hiding Her Thoughts

Anne Ahola Ward joins Kelsey Jones for a great discussion about when it's good to hide your thoughts and when it's beneficial, especially for family and friends. We also talk about when it IS beneficial to share your thoughts and opinions with the people who need to hear it.

To learn more about StoryShout podcast advertising opportunities and guest openings, visit us at StoryShout.co

And don’t forget to leave us a review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever else you listen to podcasts. 

You can also connect with @StoryShout on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. Kelsey is @wonderwall7 on Twitter.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:03

You're listening to the story shout podcast hosted by Kelsey Jones. We're a weekly podcast dedicated to destigmatizing failure and laughing at our normalcy. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on iTunes. Hi, everyone, Welcome to Story shout. My name is Kelsey Jones. And I'm joined here by an award and is someone that I've known for a long time. I know we've spoken together at conferences, and just staying in touch you've always been really fun to see throughout the year. So. And thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here. So and I can't wait to discuss what do you suck at? Well, I appreciate that. It's, it's it goes against my nature to say I'm bad at anything, as a type A person is so this, I appreciate your topic on multiple levels, because it made me it really made me dig a little deeper than I think I have another interviews, but I think I very much suck at hiding my feelings. But beyond that, I would actually say hiding my thoughts. Because when I said feelings, I was like, Well, what's really underneath that are my thoughts, I have been known to be asked to deliver bad messages to people, the things people don't want to say, is early as my childhood, you know, getting embroiled in like my parents relationship and others that not too much. But you know what I mean? I have always been that person that sort of unafraid to say things that need to be said. But I definitely would say if I suck at anything professionally and personally, it's hiding how I feel in any given situation. And when I'm thinking and when I'm truly thinking, it's not always a great time to share with people what they're doing wrong, or why something's not happening. But that is very firmly how I earned myself the nickname The mother of startups. Yeah, I know, I, as you were talking, I was thinking, well, sometimes it's good to be the person who's telling everyone what they need to hear, because I'm sure you have to. But I've been in several meetings where there's almost an elephant in the room, because no one wants to talk about the real issue. And I've always lean more towards bringing it up, especially as I've grown through my career, not in the beginning. But you know, after having over a decade of experience in my belt, I think is really when I started gaining traction. And so it's a good thing. But then I get when it's a bad thing too, because sometimes you need to use tact to make sure that the outcome is effective. And if you don't do that, it can really cause issues that are worse than you know, the real issue at hand deepen. Absolutely. And keep in mind, I'm a consultant, you know, I run an agency. So it can be a career limiting move, to tell someone what they really need to hear. But I have learned that I have to do that. Because otherwise I can't stand by and let something happen if I don't want it to happen, or I don't think it should happen. If I see mistakes being made. And I know that that has gotten me fired before. I'm very firm on that, that I know that. But the difference between me now and me 10 years ago is that I am not as worried about it as I once was, you know, because after writing an O'Reilly book and being on TV however many times like you start to get that confidence where you're like, wait a minute, my opinions might actually be good. It would certainly be easier to hide them in certain instances. But, you know, being raised by you know, a man who sought out fraud My father was a Fraud Examiner at one point president of the CFPs of Texas and Certified Fraud examiner's and was in the paper when I was a kid, like we had a one point our trash was gone through through looking for documents in a lawsuit when I was a little kid, and I was like, Whoa, it's like my dad wasn't like other dads. So I didn't realize that until later in life. But like that sort of questioning of things, was something that was ingrained in me should always question why something's happening, which I and then in turn took, as, you know, way to grow, you know, way to grow websites, a way to grow companies is constantly looking and evaluating what is working, what is not working. But I learned early on that you have to be that person that says this isn't working sometimes which is not popular, but you have to be able to say that to truly grow. Because if you're not then you're just enabling a status quo. You're not really helping. So I have been that agent of change for a long time, which I used to feel very guilty about. But now I'm like, Hey, you get what you get? Isn't that? Like, I'm so cool about it, but I forgot about it. I mean, you're right, though. Because if you if a company's hiring you to consult, and I guess I mean, the collective view. They want your opinion, and they want to know when things are wrong. So it makes sense that you would be expected to do that. But one thing I was thinking of when you're kind of talking about your experience is, does it bother you when people aren't upfront or don't say their feelings, because it bothers me, because I feel like, I'm like, I'm putting myself out here, I'm saying what needs to be said, and then there's people that kind of pass the buck, or you could tell they're upset, and they just won't say anything, and it's gonna make it worse. I mean, that really bothers me too. It absolutely bothers me, and I will terminate a business relationship. If there's deception, there's, there's lying, and then there's lying by omission. Or maybe we're not in touch with our feelings, or what we really think that is, okay, I can work with that. But when there's like, outright, like lying about things, and that's usually especially when it comes to a product, I have dropped clients for that I don't have very many, I don't want to make it sound like I'm harsh. But I have terminated, you know, over the years, a couple for just, you know, lying about where the product is, or like, you know, that that bothers me when when someone doesn't know what they want. But they can't admit it. That's what frustrates me, it's like, a lot of people need help. And they don't want to admit that they need help. And so that's always a little harder to pull out of them. But I've learned how to do that over the years. And just sort of presenting like, well, here's your options, here's your options. But definitely, I think the only organizations I have seen where that has run rampant. And keep in mind, I work with tech startups, there's there's a lot of cowboy elements to that. Because when there's an institution that is fraught with nepotism, or other things that are toxic, there is not an environment of learning. There's not an environment where it's okay to be wrong. It's sort of like a popularity contest, or those are typically the ones that I find the hardest to work with and help. Because if you're not open to hearing feedback, or even thinking in your mind that there might be an alternative reality of questioning authority. If we're just, you know, the CEO was my friend and he hired me, I'm not gonna go against him. Like that's never a winning proposition. It's a hard, it's a hard battle to fight because the personal has sifted in there so much that the professional is clouded. And so that's how you end up with, you know, lack of professional judgment. And those are the institutions I find the hardest to help. Yes, I think you're right on the money. Like, if it's in the culture, to not really stand up and say anything, then a lot of issues come from that. Have you ever seen something similar in your personal life, like I had a friend years ago that she just was not honest with herself with this relationship she had, and I tried to help her. And it was like, she had to realize it for herself. And we kind of grew apart because it wasn't like she was in danger or anything. But I just, there were just a bunch of issues that she needed to figure out on her own. And so I don't know if you've had that kind of thing happened with friends or family too. Absolutely. I did. Someone I grew up with, ended up in an abusive relationship. And, you know, I helped her get out of it. hurt her child, I helped them escape. And sure enough, she went back to them and called me a second time. So hard. And, you know, I called her family because I knew them all. And, you know, they're like, Yeah, we did this three times, too. And then I was like, Oh, my gosh, I my hell am I really helping here? And so I went to my parents because, you know, who else do you go to for epic advice, your your family, people who love you. And they knew her and her situation as well. And they said, Look, you have become a part of this. You are not qualified for this. And so one of the hardest things I ever had to do was I called abuse helplines. And I called the some national resources and said, This is a situation what do I do to help her? And they said, You have they said, basically what my parents said, which is you have become a part of this. She is in denial of her situation and looking for help and you were very Very nice to want to help her and, you know, did a lot for this person. But ultimately, I became a part of the problem because I was facilitating this situation, which I didn't really know. So I think getting expert help was the best thing I did for her because I was like, Look, here are three numbers, you can call, here's a place you can go, you can no longer come to my house, I'm so sorry. Like, because I'm just facilitating the situation continuing because eventually she would. He'd say the right thing, and she go back. And so it ended up where that professional was able to get her that help get her to see things in a different way. But I was wondering a few of our friends that that went for it, because how could you not if you see someone you care about struggling, you want to help them. So the hardest thing I had to do for that relationship was to say, I can't actually help you anymore, because I'm not really helping you. That was hard. For me. That was very, very, I can't even imagine how difficult that must have been. I think about too, and I've gotten too wrapped up in other people's issues, or, you know, I say what needs to be said. And then like you said, I'm now a part of it, whether that's at work or with friends, and then I, it's almost like, I get too deep. And I I don't know, I've always been someone that people have told me things like even strangers have come up to me and started telling me about their divorce and things like that, like I must have that type of energy. I don't know why. But that happens with I've had that happen with colleagues before where they've brought me too much into their personal life. And it's just, it's like too much information and too many feelings. And that's really hard to reset up the boundaries after you've already been a little bit involved. But I do agree with you that there's a point where you being involved isn't really helpful. And that's hard, because you want to help, but there's some times when helping makes it worse. Absolutely. And what came out of that was probably one of the best pieces of advice my late father gave me that really just like, you know, in times like this, when you're faced with a friend and this and you know, people kind of clobbering you because I have the same thing I had, I had a and I'll tell you that advice in just a second. But I actually had a friend of my mom's when I was like 11 In the bathroom start telling me her marriage problems. And so this is I've had this my whole life. And she's like, you're an old soul. You're an old soul. And I like asked my mom, and she's like what she did. But it was, I've had that too. And I think it's partially just being an understanding, compassionate person, you're capable. Like, I know, you could get anything done, you wanted to just like I could. And so there are people that are attracted to that, because they don't have that they don't have that confidence, or, you know, or good in a crisis. But what he said to me, which I think changed, a lot of how I operated after that was being a good friend doesn't mean making their problems, your problems. Oh, wow, that that just like, kapow, that moment, my dad, my dad gave me the strength. And he just had those, oh my god, he was amazing. He had those lines. But that that in that was in a situation related to the same friend that I just talked about. So that gave me the power to say, okay, like, I don't have to own whatever's going on over here. And the same has happened for me with clients. Like I see them step into something with another vendor, I see them, you know, I've been called into HR crises, I've been called into all sorts of things. And so I'll say, you know, that's the best practice, I would go over here, I would look this up and I just sort of, I don't I I'm careful to not take ownership professionally or personally, of things that are not mine to own. And having the permission to do that is a very, very helpful thing. I mean, it's a boundary right it's a boundary but but it is good to realize like you don't actually have have to make their problem yours to be their friend. And that that was a pivotal moment for me and I never got sucked into anything like that again. God, I love that I am gonna remember that like forever now that's so good. And that's what happens to me because I I have so much empathy and I can feel when people are upset like when I see you know that I'm close to if I see them if they come over or something and I can sense things about how a situation is going. But you're totally right. That doesn't mean I have to make it my problem just because I'm aware of a situation or I sense a situation doesn't mean I have to be in the situation. I mean, we Want to make sure people are okay? Whether that's a friend or you know, maybe a client you work with, you want to make sure that they're not getting taken advantage of. But you can still set boundaries where you're known as that person, that's going to give good advice. But that doesn't mean you're going to be involved in everything. So I love that. So what do you consider to be a good friend or working relationship in terms of telling the truth or telling up front? Because I think we've talked about when you do it, or when other people do it too much. But like, when is it? What do you expect from a relationship to do for you, like, tell you the truth? Does that make sense? Yeah, I think it's a very difficult thing to tell someone what they need to hear, not what they want to hear. But yeah, what I have what I have learned as a person walking into a situation with more power, because I have the knowledge or I have the experience, like in a professional setting, you know, I'm walking in there as an agent of change, I've made recommendations that have cost, you know, changed people's lives, cost, jobs, things like that. You have, you have to do, I think when you're approaching it, if you're the person, I think all messages come across a little bit better with kindness. I think that it's it's better to have empathy delivering a bad message than to just say it as it is. And to really gauge if the person is even open to hearing it, because sometimes they're not there yet. And you kind of have to lead them down the path. I will even ask some times, do you want to know what I think? Oh, that's good. Yeah. Do you want to hear what I would do if I were you? Because I think, you know, we all fall into this trap with our friends where, you know, you know what to do in a situation, you can see it coming. But when you dispense that advice carte blanche, and you're just like, well, you should do this. And you should do that. Sometimes they don't really feel like you're listening to them. Sometimes people just want to sometimes people just want to talk, right? They don't want solutions. So I will say and I have friends that I've said this to like, Look, I am paid to tell people what to do for a living. I'm a consultant. So are you looking for fix it? And are you looking for listen to it? Because of you, you want to get that bottle of wine and you want to, you know, assassinate someone's character? Sure. Right? We can do it. But you need to tell me which and you're looking for. And I've done that before, because it has occurred to me over the years that being a very capable leader person does come across to people as uncaring, it comes across as bossy, it comes across as well. She didn't listen, she doesn't care, when that's really not the case. I'm just someone who's going to always try to solve a problem. And so by approaching with empathy and kindness, you can generally get through any situation if the person is receptive to it, because sometimes people just clients or friends, they just want to complain, or they just want someone to hear them. They just want to know that they're being seen. And that's, that's okay. Because if that gets you to the next stage, then you're you know, sometimes you have to acknowledge to move on. Yes, I agree. It's, it's funny, we're talking about this today, because I'm actually reading a book right now called difficult conversations. And it's about like, how to have difficult conversations, whether it's work or personal. And it's really good for anyone listening. And radical candor is another one that's really good. But I do think leading with empathy, and also understanding your part in the conversation. And if it's not just you giving advice, if it's like us about a situation that happened, thinking about what you could have done differently, even if somebody interpreted what you did wrong. I don't know. It's hard. That's what the book is recommending. And I agree, but it's also hard because you don't always want to think that you're doing something wrong and hearing you talk about, oh, you know, I might come across as bossy or whatever I've had that happen to and when you brought it up, I thought about my experience and for me, and I know we're almost at the end of our time, but for me it's been hard for as a woman because I think I'm I'm seen as like more bossy, and that might be like a good closing thing to kind of talk about if you have been received more negatively giving your honest feedback because you're a woman and if that would happen if you were a man. Absolutely gender dynamics play a very heavy part into it. There is you know, pre me too. It was a bigger issue. Pre me too. In Silicon Valley. I you know, there's this sort of the myth of you're either a princess or a bitch And that that was very much the case is, you know, you were either sweet and kind and got along with everyone and did everything or you, you know, what a nag, and so that that stereotype was ever present. And I think it really started to change with the advent of me too. There are different conversations happening within startups. But it is a very real thing. As a woman, I think it bothered me more in my 30s. But now I think I'm, I'm a little more secure than to worry about that perception. If, if we're having those thoughts, and we're not having a professional conversation, you know what I mean? And you have to be fearless. You have to be fearless to lead people. And so, for me to lead you into a successful search program or a successful, you know, online growth, I have to not be afraid of what you might think of me personally, I will be my best and most professional, but whatever issues you have, are probably not with me. They're with powerful women, or they're with something that happened in your past, maybe your mom was me. So I also think a lot of it, people map on their past experiences to people, you remind them of someone and so you just have to know that when someone has an issue like that most of the time, it's them, not you. And so again, you're not taking ownership of of that I, you know, remember the lady I knew in Texas years ago said, you know, everybody's got their mischief. And I kind of liked that. I was like, I got some mischief. But but you know, like, you don't need to own everybody's mischief either. You know what I mean? Like, if you have issues with powerful women, then I'm probably not the SEO for you. Yeah, if it's going to be a trigger for you, then it's not going to be a good situation. Exactly. Already going into it. So I love that. Well, I feel like I could talk to you for a long time about this, especially about gender stuff, because I think, oh, yeah, thoughts on that, but, but I know we're kind of wrapping up. So if anybody wants to learn more about what you do, and about your book, or anything else you have going on, where can they find you? Well, I'm most commonly found on Twitter. My handle is at Ambonnay nn E B is in boy Oh T and M and bought it everything so you can find me all over the internet is and bought my moniker of many years of that. Well, and thank you so much for joining me and thanks to everyone else for listening. And until next time thank you for listening to the story shout podcast. Don't forget to review us on iTunes and connect with us on social media at story shout or online at story shout.co Until next time, stay normal