StoryShout: Destigmatizing Failure

Joe Sucks at Saying No

February 16, 2022 Kelsey Jones and Joe Hall Season 2 Episode 4
StoryShout: Destigmatizing Failure
Joe Sucks at Saying No
Show Notes Transcript

Kelsey is joined by Joe Hall as we discuss saying no, workaholism in tech, and how the pandemic with COVID-19 has affected our ability to say no.

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You're listening to the story shout podcast hosted by Kelsey Jones. We're a weekly podcast dedicated to destigmatizing failure and laughing at our normalcy. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on iTunes. Hi, everyone, Welcome to Story shout. My name is Kelsey Jones. And I'm joined here today by Joe Hall. Joe is one of my friends in the marketing industry, I think we met at a conference or maybe through Search Engine Journal. But, Joe, thanks so much for joining me. Yeah, thank you so much, Kelsey, for having me. I was really excited to be here. I'm really a big fan of your work. And, of course, this is my first like experience with you as a podcaster. But I know all of your content work is so incredible. So this is a really exciting to see what this is all about to hear. Thank you. Yeah, I've, you know, ever since I started that podcast, with Search Engine Journal, like years ago, I always have missed doing it. So this has been a really fun experience. And I get to talk to all my friends. It's an excuse for them to talk to me. Yeah, that's awesome. That's a really good excuse. Yeah. Joe, so what are we going to talk about today? What do you suck at? What do I suck at? Like, I feel like I could probably write a book about that, of that topic. You know, man, it's not always obvious to because I, if you if you know me online, at Kelsey, you know, you follow me on social media, but he follow me online, you know, but I do have a pretty big ego. So talking about what I suck at, I think is good. For me, it might be good therapy, to seek a little bit more humility. But, uh, so, uh, one of the things that I suck at and really come to mind over the last year as then, not saying no enough, and and just saying yes to too many things. And I've always known this about myself. But it's gotten worse. I feel like maybe in the last couple years. And so it's something that I'm top of mine, to kind of tackle this year, to start saying no more often. Um, Shea was a little a little bit shaky. Yes. A little bit less, you know, oh, there you go. Do you think like everything that has happened with COVID has been a correlation to you saying yes, to more things. Yeah. Because here's the thing. So like, this is what happened. And it kind of started before COVID. But I run my own business. And I am a kind of a solo entrepreneur. And so a long time ago, one thing it was about while ago is like 2016, maybe I was at a conference. And I was talking to another fellow SEO, another solo entrepreneur, solo consultant. And she had said something to me, like really struck with me. She said, that cuz I asked her, I was like, So what do you do with what type of consulting Do you have? And she was like, Well, I basically just do whatever needs to be done. And like, that kind of really opened up my eyes a lot. Because, up until that point, I was the kind of selective over the type of consulting when I did, like I, you know, I do SEO, but I would really only use a certain type of SEO, or work with certain types of clients or certain types of projects. And when she mentioned that, I was like, wow, that's, that's interesting. Like, it seems so obvious, like he's do whatever needs to be done. But I hadn't really thought it a whole lot that way. And so I started to try to apply more of that. And what happened was, my revenue, like went through the roof, because I was taking on more projects, and it was like, Oh my God. And, um, so initially, I was like, Whoa, like saying yes, more often. That drives up my revenue. And if you're a solo consultant, or a solo entrepreneur, you know, the cash flow is really very important thing. You know, like, there are some, some months where you make a ton of money, other months where you don't and so having that steady flow of income coming in, is like super important. And so when I saw like, all this revenue go up, because I kept seeing yesterday different days. I was like, Well, this is what we're going to do like you get like, like limit the number of times I say no, like really minimize that No. with clients and and different projects that come across my desk. And, and that kind of started before the pandemic. And, and I had this mentality that then even then I had this mentality that hey, like, if I just spend less time watching Netflix, then I can make more money, you know, and I, so I guess I just spent less time watching Netflix or wherever and, and that was easy to for me because like I'm, I'm single I don't have kids or anything like that. So it's easy for me to make those decisions, you know. And so in giving that like I, again, I just worked more and make more money, but, and then when a pandemic hit, it was like that, it was like that the tally is like hyperdrive, because I didn't have anything to do, like he go anywhere, and you can't visit with anyone. And so it was just like, Well, what do I do, I was gonna work. And it was like that in overdrive. And then something weird happened to during the pandemic, I think it was because of where I've kind of like, position within the industry or, or whatever. But my leads for worth went up, like went through the roof. And so not only was I saying yes to more things, but I had more opportunities come towards me. And Anyways, long story short, that resulted in me saying yes, to way too many things. And it was a failure, because I became less focused on what mattered for each project, or each task involved. Because I had a million things to do. And I became overwhelmed, a lot of times have a longer my to do list got, the more like, overwhelmed I got, and the more the feelings of like, like, I'm not going to ever get out of this, you know, situation. And that also turned into with a feeling of, like, overwhelming, but it was also kind of like burnt out. Um, and, and then it got to a point where I had a ton of stuff to do, but I wasn't doing much of anything. Because I have so much to do, you know, it's like instant, it's like, well, this is a problem. So I've now finally kind of gained out from under a while that work. And now finally kind of like coming up. And so my goal for this year is to say no more often, and to not take on the world, you know, and kind of think of it that way, you know? Yeah, I think that's really good. When I first started freelancing, and I was single, well, I had a boyfriend, but we didn't live together. And I was like you, I would just like work all the time. And it took several years before I got burned out. But I realized that I was burned out when it was like you like I would just sit there I had so much stuff to do. And I would just sit there, I would know where the days would go. I mean, I don't it was the weirdest it was the weirdest time because you just for me. And it sounds like you're kind of like this too. When I feel overwhelmed, I just kind of shut down. And so that took like probably even another almost year before me realizing, okay, I have to be smarter about this and saying yes, everything can get you more clients and more revenue, like you said, but it also is going to affect the results that you're providing to them. And it's also that's then going to affect you down the line with revenue anyway. Because if you're not doing a good job, then clients aren't gonna refer you they're not going to, you know, ask you for more work. Or they might end a contract early because you're not able to keep up with everything. So it is detrimental. You think saying yes to everything can only be beneficial. But there are like detriments to that as well that maybe don't see. And it's not really it's not fair to anybody involved, like to the point like like I reached to think also that like oh, well, I want to help this person and I want to do good work for them. And so I would say yes, and then turn out because I was overwhelmed or overworked or couldn't get to their project. He actually ended up being a bad experience for them because like, you know, I had the best intentions going into it. But because I wasn't able to fall through like a like I said one or because the quality of work was sloppy because I was doing too much. It turned out to be a bad experience for them. As soon as it was the exact opposite of what I attended to have for them. Like I thought, oh well I want to take this client on because I think I can do it better. They're getting older. You know, and the opposite turned out to be true because because I took them on, I shouldn't just given them off to someone that I knew could handle my job, it had time to do it. And they can be taken care of, you know, so it really is detrimental to everyone involved. Not just me, but also the client as well, or the customer, you know? Yeah. So yeah, it is difficult. And I was thinking about your podcast this morning, and about how the topic of like, failure is, so it's like, a, it's a power move, really, when you think about it, like, because like, it's a catalyst for change, you know, if you can understand, like, what you suck at, and analyze it, then you can fix the problem, you know, and I think it comes back to, and we were just talking about this a little bit before we started recording about, like, having to embrace vulnerability, you know, it goes back to, like, part is that embracing vulnerability means understanding, like, all those icky points about yourself that you can improve upon, you know, um, and I think that, I mean, this is why this this podcast, I think, is so cool, because it is sort of like a catalyst for change, you know, and making a imporantly. Apply yourself, you know, and learning for that, you know, yeah, well, and I think there's some things that you suck out that need to change, like what we're talking about with you. But then there's other things that it's okay to be badass. Like, I had a, I had an episode with Amalia failure, Fowler, she's in paid ads, and she's really awesome. But we talked about procrastination. And one thing he talked about that episode was really good if anyone listening hasn't heard it yet. But one thing we talked about is when I realized that I procrastinate all the time, I stopped, like kidding myself. And like, so if I had a huge project, before, I would, maybe over four months, assign a different deliverable one for each month until the project is due. But since I realized that I procrastinate, I just have started scheduling it for the week before it's due, because I know that I'm not going to do it until then. So I just want us with myself. And that came from a lot of that came from the burnout too, of like, recognizing, okay, I obviously keep putting this task off, which means I don't really want to do it. And if that's the case, I either need to outsource it, or I need to be honest with how I work and how I am as a person. And as a result, like, how can I schedule this project or tasks that fully embraces who I am, instead of wishing that I wasn't a procrastinator or wasn't like, lazy? In my eyes, I'm doing air quotes. Some, you know, I think you have to be honest about your weaknesses. And that kind of means working with them, too. Yeah, exactly. And I really talked about procrastination, I read this thing, it was kind of an interesting take on procrastination, it said that people that procrastinate, are actually very productive. They're just very productive of the wrong things. And so like, I thought about that with myself, like, when I procrastinate, like, Yes, I didn't get done, when I planned on getting done. But I gave watch, like, six seasons of, you know, the office stuff. And like, and it sounds goofy, but like, if you think about it, like, and I've done this with my coding too, because, like, I do a lot of like just side programming projects that are not it really just for fun. And, um, I've like, there's one project right now that we're working on for the last four months. Um, and I ended up just working on that, when I should have been doing other things, you know, but the result is that I'm almost done with this thing. It's really awesome. So it's actually going to help with with my business. So it is really things where it's like, you can be kind of strategic with your procrastination and find things that will benefit you and use those things as like what you are just tracking yourself with, you know, I'm least that's what I found. But yeah, you're right, the whole like he asked yourself about, like the procrastination thing and scheduling thing appropriately. I've done that too. I've absolutely done that. You know, well and going back to being honest and like saying no to people, when you so this year, have you started to say no to projects and or people and when you have what what's kind of What'd you say? Well, no, I haven't yet started. And we're only 10 days into the year. And actually, I actually just, at the end of last week, I told someone, I'd send them a proposal for a project that I really shouldn't be doing. Because it's, it's very small, and it's not something like I normally do. And it's those little tiny projects, like, little tiny projects that I don't normally do that eat up all my time, you know, because it's stuff that it doesn't fit within my model of business. And so I have to, like, kind of spend more time on it and stuff like that. But, um, but no, I haven't started that yet. And like, I will say that, like, I have turned down people in the past. Like, it's not like I've never said no, but the difficult thing about saying no, is, and this is why I don't do it very often, is I want to feel like they're taken care of, in some way. Right? And so I like to try to find people I can refer business to, and quite honestly, like, that has become more and more difficult for me, because a lot of folks that that I want to send work to, they say no, for the same reasons that I would say no, you know, and so it's kind of like a, you know, oh, it was client's budget is too small, or this is not the type of work that I would normally do, or, or whatever, um, when I send it out to another consultant or another freelancer, it's the same reasons. Like, they don't want to take the client either, you know, and it's hard to say no, in situations like that, because I feel like, I'm not really helping them too much, you know, helping the business owner or, or the client. Um, so that's difficult, you know, like, you know, you kind of get over that a little bit, you know, it's not, you know, you are not, I guess, like, I guess we had to remind myself a while is that, like, these are really not your problems, you know, I hate to say it like that, but, like, really like, like, they're not like, you want to help people, but at the end of the day, but you know, they need to, like increase their budget, or they need to have a more time for you, you know, like, I had a client last couple weeks ago, that, you know, doing an audit for him, he wants the audit done in like, a week, and I'm like, I'll do my best, you know, but it's not going to get done in a week, you know? And that's on them. Like their schedule has to be more flexible. So yeah, I mean, it is difficult to say no, for a lot of reasons, but it does help everyone else in the long run. You know? Yeah, I think that comes back to what you were saying earlier, like, it's detrimental sometimes to say yes. And that makes me think about. So my, one of my aunts runs an organizing business. And I've helped her in the past with SEO, and just some website stuff. And she really wanted to kind of this year, do a retainer, and I just don't have the bandwidth, because it's a small project, but it's my aunt, you know, like, so I've never know. And I did a project for her, I think last fall, and it was like, really rushed. And I feel like it wasn't very good, but she was happy. So anyway, um, finally, she sent me an email, I think it was last week or the week before where she was like, Look, I need help. So either, are you going to help me or I'm going to find someone else like not mean, but just, I really this was. And so I referred her to one of my friends that I knew could take it on and, and I trusted my friend, but I feel like protective of her like, she's my aunt, respect. It's not your family member. I've had times in the past where it's a really small business owner. And you can tell that they're just really naive and don't know what they want, really don't want them to get taken advantage of by wanting those huge agencies that are going to overcharge them and not really do good work. And so it's taking everything i i have to not ask my friend if she's working with my aunt or like not be involved. Because I really want to go to my aunt and say, Look, if you're not going to work with Danielle, then you need to tell me who you're talking to. So I can tell you if they're bad, but that's making me involved in the project and my aunt's not, you know, a dumb person, she's smart. She knows like the basics of how SEO works. So I know she'll be okay, but I totally get you in the point of like, it's so hard to say no sometimes because for a lot of reasons, but you feel kind of protective too and and it just makes it hard. I think like especially when there's a lot of people that will say yes, but it's for they're not going to do their part Yeah, so that's the same, like, I actually had that same thing happen with my aunt, my aunt had the same issue. And it was a friend of hers was starting the business. And she wanted me to help them with SEO. And of course, you know, because my aunt was involved in it, my mother was involved in it to, not not involved in the business, but involved in knowing that I was helping my head. And so because of that, like, it got even stickier because like, you know, I can charge them, because what am I gonna do charge my ad, and then then, then then the budget is criticized by my mother, you know, it just gets sticky. So, uh, so I ended up giving this like, small project for them, but honestly, the result of the whole thing was just me advise them not to do SEO, because I did a competitive analysis for them. And I was, like, look, like to get started, just to get started, that's, you know, you need like, five to 10 grand, you know, you don't have that. So you can't do it, you know, um, and I think like, that was my expert opinion. It took me like, a few days to figure that out. And, of course, it wasn't good enough, because my mother came back to me. And she says, Don't be so negative, you know, don't be so just guaranteed to your ad. But it's like, Mom, that's my, that was my professional opinion. And, you know, like, and so, you know, that was not good. And I think that, like you said that, like, there are small business owners that you come across, that, you know, like, you know, that if you say no to them, he turned them away, they're going to find some small outfit, that doesn't charge very much money, that just takes their money and runs, you know, but doesn't do very much good work. And you feel bad about that. And that was really what I was trying to, I was trying to negate with my aunt was like, Hey, listen, if you go to a company, and they're not going to charge you like, three 5000 a month, that are ripping you off, like so don't, don't focus on, you know, these really cheap, SEO alpha, it's because they're not gonna be doing good work for you, you know, I'm here to tell you, like, you're not ready yet for that. So it was it was, you know, kind of a situation where I felt like I was helping her, but I really should not have been even, you know, doing that, because it took up a ton of time. And it's not something I normally do. Um, it took up a ton of time. And it was it was something I wanted to say no to, you know, and it's funny to like, talk to my family. Like, I'm sure you get this all the time, Kelsey, like, do you get people to come to you and say things like, like, Hey, can you help me with my Facebook? Or something soon as like, completely unrelated to what you do? And you're like, well, that's not what I do. That's not like, you know, when I do that's not my specialty. Like, and they're like, look at you like, Well, why not? Like, come on? Like, you do this so much attack, you should just not do everything in tech. Yeah. Yeah. And so like, I have one of my mother's friends actually asked me what she should name her Facebook page for her business. And I was like, I don't I don't know who like what's maybe your business? Just use that. You know? It's just like, Oh, yeah. Okay. I was like, Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Like, I'm not a Facebook guy, you know, um, and even thought, like I can, I can recommend you to a Facebook person, but never charge you a ton of money. You know. So, you know, it is difficult to say no to people like that. That's fine. The hardest people say go to the people, the people you care about, even when they're attached to you in some way, you know? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, like friends or family. And that even goes beyond work. Right? Like, I don't know if you struggled with this, but like saying no to friends or family that want to do something like I had, oh, like a couple weeks ago. So in Kansas City, there's this thing called the plaza lights. And there's this district in Kansas City where all the buildings look like they're in Spain. So all these like Spanish brick buildings, and they line all the buildings in the whole district with lights and it's really awesome. So I wanted to go and you go, and there's like restaurants and so I wanted to go, maybe go eat at a restaurant and walk around. So I asked my friends to go and I was on a meeting like I asked the question then I got on a meeting well, but by the time I was back, suddenly they had decided that we're going to lunch instead. And I got so mad because I'm like, the whole reason I texted you is to see the dumb lights that don't come on till 5pm at night. So I probably apply the best way. But I was like, I'm not going to brunch. Because last year, I realized I had some food allergies. So I have to avoid like eggs, green, and mostly dairy, all the good cornerstones of brunch. So I went tangent, and I'm like, Well, I'm not going to brunch. I don't like brunch. And they had picked this really fancy place. And I'm like, I'm not going to pay $30 for like, some sausage, because that's all I can. And I just said, I'm not going. I set it in like a little bit of a better way. I probably sound a little bratty. But I was like, I don't want to go to brunch, I just want to see the light. Like, hello. But that was an example of like, a recent sticky situation where I'm like, I'm good. Like, that's not what I want. And I think, I don't know, I feel like with COVID it has kind of changed my perspective on like, how I spend my time. So I these friends are good enough friends of mine where I can say like, I don't want to do that. And it's okay. And I just seek to surround myself with people where I can be like, Hey, I don't really feel like going, either. I don't feel well, or I just don't want to go. Yeah, I wonder if I wonder that's a good thing to think about. Like, I wonder if COVID has helped people say no more often, you know, like in situations like that, but their social situation. Definitely, like for me with the business side of it. It kind of screws me up, I say yes, more often making the COVID. But I'm like you, I actually do not really have any friends. So I don't like have these weird social, like things I have in the past, like a blue moon, a friend who asked me to go do something where I just really don't want to do um, and then I'll be like, you know, like, I don't want to do that or whatever. But I know normally I don't really go out that much at all. Really? I have that issue with my family a lot though. Like my sisters will ask me to go do stuff with them. And I just don't want to, you know, um, like last night? Exactly, exactly. Like, last night, they wanted me to go eat dinner at their house, and I didn't want to. And they were like, okay, whatever, you know, and so I can see how that is. But the social social obligations, do you feel weird to say no to you? No. But I, you're right, though, the pandemic is gonna like, I think, adjusted everybody's expectations, you know, and change people a lot. And I think it's more acceptable now to say no, It's situations like that, you know, but that is so cool, though, that you get saying no, like, you set boundaries for yourself, you know? And, uh, you were like, No, I'm not gonna do that. Because, like, I don't want to make myself sick. And because I want to see spirit slights, you know, so that's like, that's really impressive. Yeah, thank you. Well, I felt like they weren't listening to me too. And that's, that's another podcast in itself. But I'm like, that's all I said I wanted to do and then it evolved. And I told them that and we had a good discussion about it. But yeah, I mean, like, that's something to like, like, quit, um, I quit. Well, I got like, a, like, five years ago, I got sober. And so that's really like, I'll be friends. Because most of my friends used to drink a lot or they still drink a lot. And they you know, other things, too, and I got added that whole scene. Um, and that took a while to readjust everyone's expectations of me because they were like, yeah, come on, do this with me. Come on, do this that you know, and I'd be like no looking to do that, you know, he just wasn't right for me anymore. And so that changed things a lot. But yeah, I went through that whole thing like setting up your own personal boundaries for what you know is right for you, you know, both like on an emotional level but then also just on a realistic kind of level of the life you want to live you know, I love that I'm and that might be a good like, thing to close out. The podcast is like, setting boundaries, either with yourself when it comes to work, or your friends. I mean, what kind of things are you thinking about when you're going to do that, you know, this year that might help someone else? So I know that we talked earlier about this is not supposed to be a professional podcast. But I think that I don't really have a life outside my work. So I will say though, for a start setting boundaries. I've read this book a long time. Well, not long time ago, but a few years ago, I read this book, and it's recommended by a lot of business people. It's called the E Myth. And he read that Kelsey,