Restoring Warfare in the Church — A Pastor’s Wake-Up Call

Can today’s pastors truly integrate exorcism into church ministry? Pastor Tyler Manis of Revelation Church in Carmel, Indiana joins The Blind Exorcist to share how his divine calling led him to the International School of Exorcism—and why he believes deliverance must be restored to the heart of modern discipleship.

📌 What you’ll discover in this episode:

✅ Why seminary education often overlooks spiritual warfare
 ✅ How exorcism and deliverance fit into healthy church ministry
 ✅ Breaking generational curses and confronting demonic oppression
 ✅ The danger of surface-level deliverance with no discipleship
 ✅ Why lasting freedom requires repentance and spiritual maturity
 ✅ The role of biblical theology in confronting demonic influence

Pastor Tyler issues a bold call for the church to return to full gospel truth—preaching hell, repentance, and deliverance without compromise. If you’re ready to confront the spiritual battles affecting today’s church, don’t miss this episode.

🔗 Visit Revelation Church: https://www.revelationcarmel.com/

Transcript

Introduction and Welcome

Speaker 1 0:37

Welcome to episode 26 of the Blind Exorcist podcast. I'm your host, justin D, and I'm beyond excited to bring you this episode. First, I want to extend a heartfelt thank you for tuning in and being a part of this growing community. Your continued support truly makes this podcast possible. In today's episode, I have an incredible conversation lined up with Pastor Tyler Maness from Revelation Church in Carmel, indiana. I'm diving deep into how Pastor Tyler is boldly integrating exorcism into his church's ministry, a topic that's sure to challenge and inspire you. But before we jump in, I'd love for you to subscribe to the podcast and share it with your family, friends and on your social media platforms. If you feel moved to support the show. It's easy Just tap support the show in the show notes. Your contribution directly fuels this ministry, allowing me to keep bringing you these impactful episodes. I also encourage you to share this particular episode with any pastor or minister you know. It's a powerful opportunity to challenge their theological beliefs, especially around the idea that Christians cannot have demons.

Exorcism Across Denominations: Breaking Stereotypes and Stigma

Speaker 1 2:08

In this episode, pastor Tyler doesn't hold back. He shares the essentials of exorcism ministry, his approach to working with congregation members in need of deliverance and his deep passion for the gospel and preaching the full counsel of God's Word. This is one episode you won't want to miss. It's going to be eye-opening, inspiring and thought-provoking. You can visit Pastor Tyler's church website and watch his sermons using Facebook Live. You can check out the sermon times over at revelationchurchcarmelcom. I'll put a link to his church website in the show notes Without any further ado. Let's dive in and get started, tyler. Welcome to the Blind Exorcist, hey.

Speaker 2 3:01

Justin, it's great to be here, brother. I've been looking forward to this opportunity.

The Seminary Gap: Missing Links in Spiritual Warfare Training

Speaker 1 3:06

Thank you for taking the time out of your schedule and for jumping on here to discuss a really important point, I think, and last episode I interviewed a minister who was a free Methodist minister who's integrating exorcism as a function of the church. That's not the driving factor. This should be present in every church denomination and body that's Protestant. I wanted to bring Tyler onto the show because he is yet again another credible minister that has a church where he is starting to and exorcism and it goes back to the theological training that they go through in seminary. But guess what? I've met pastors and have talked to pastors who have people in their congregation come to them and manifest demons, okay, and they don't know what to do. Why don't they know what to do? Because in seminary they are taught that Christians cannot have demons. That is a lie.

Speaker 1 4:39

We had a pastor recently get a hold of us because a woman in his congregation now check this out came to him. He's done everything biblical counseling, taking her through the word of God, fasting, had her go to a counselor, all this stuff and she still kept coming. And she still kept coming telling him things are moving in my home. I hear voices in my head that are telling me to kill myself and I'm getting visitations in the middle of the night. So this pastor has no clue how to help this person. He's done all he can. He's done what seminary told him to do Coach them, disciple them through the word of God. It will renew their mind and everything will be fine. This pastor reached out to us and said everything is not fine. I need help.

Speaker 1 5:37

I have questioned my training and theology. I believe that this woman has demons. Could you please help her and guess what we did? And she had demons and they were expelled through the authority and compassion of Jesus Christ and she was set free. And this minister had to accept the fact that this woman who had been attending his church for 30 years the grandmotherly type, sweet Christian woman that bakes the casseroles for your church gatherings that woman yeah, that's who she was Turns out she was molested as a child and demons entered her there.

Tyler’s Calling: A Pastor's Path to Deliverance Ministry

Unlocking Power: Tyler’s Journey at the International School of Exorcism

Speaker 1 6:25

I mention a lot of that because Tyler is a minister who believes in exorcism. He has actually went through the International School of Exorcism. He is educated, he is trained well and he helps the members in his local congregation when necessary. His church, his thrust, is not all about the hype of deliverance and head spinning and vomiting, and all of that. He has a very balanced approach. I'm excited to have you on the show, tyler, so we can begin to explain to people that not only can this be a function of the church, it should be, and, secondly, it can be balanced. So let me come over to you, tyler. First of all, let's start back at the beginning. How did you get interested in becoming a pastor and starting a church?

Speaker 2 7:24

Yeah, justin, I think that's an excellent question. So I believe that God calls people to ministry. I believe that it comes with divine calling and since I was a kid I just felt that call and that urge to go that direction. I've just always had a heart for ministry. My dad is a pastor and so I grew up practically art for ministry. My dad is a pastor, and so I grew up practically I grew up in ministry, and about four years ago I had an opportunity to plant a church in Carmel, indiana, and that's where it all started for me.

Speaker 1 7:51

That's awesome, and after you've planted your church, obviously membership started coming. What was it that made you decide to go to Dr Larson's International School of Exorcism?

Speaker 2 8:12

Yeah, so when it came to the School of Exorcism. So I had a little bit of a background in deliverance. I've had mentors in my life prior to the School of Exorcism. That gave me a foundation. But I was starting to come across some cases where I just wasn't getting anywhere with them. And you know, at this point I'm like 30 exorcisms in. I'm new at deliverance ministry and had a lot of successful cases up to this point.

Speaker 2 8:34

And then I just started hitting a wall after a wall after a wall you know what I mean and I just wasn't getting anywhere. Demons weren't manifesting, or people just weren't getting free, or it's like a demon would manifest and not come up fully. And so I was trying to figure out what was going on and I got discouraged and I went back and I just got alone with God and I was praying. I was like God, what's going on? Why am I hitting these walls? Why am I not seeing people free? Why am I not seeing people free? And I kid you not, this is what happened to me, justin.

Speaker 2 9:06

As I was praying, I saw a picture come to my mind of Bob Larson's Curse-Breaking Book and literally I went and Googled it afterwards and it was the same cover, art and everything, and I heard the Holy Spirit tell me to read it, and after I started reading it, I really was learning a lot. I was like man, this is what I need to know. This is the reason why I'm having all these problems. I need to go deeper with this. And shortly after that, I applied for the School of Exorcism.

Dr. Bob Larson’s Breakthrough Methodology: A Deep Dive into Deliverance

Speaker 1 9:29

So you go through the International School of Exorcism, which I always recommend for people to take who's considering getting into deliverance. Larson has a process, a standardization that can be trained. That's why he has a school, so that you can be trained in his methodology and follow it, and it works. I've been through it personally for 14 months. If you've not heard my story, you can listen to episode one Overcoming the Darkness. This is why I became an exorcist, because Christ freed me and I want to help others. It's just a heart of compassion. But the process people learn it from scratch, from books, from YouTube videos, and it's just a hodgepodge. There's not a systematic approach to learning how to do this and Larson brings that to the table. Tyler, you've went through this. There's a standardization to it and I think that's great because there really isn't any out there, but Larson brings that to the table. What are your thoughts on his process, methodology and standardization? I think that's an excellent question.

Speaker 2 10:41

I'm all for it. I love his methodology, I love his strategies, I love his standard, especially when we're talking about generational curse breaking. In my opinion, there's no other way to do it and I think that's why a lot of people don't get free. Personally and I say this respectfully, but I think it's because a lot of ministers even though there are very few out there that's practicing deliverance ministry I think very few don't understand the concept of generational curse breaking. So when we're talking about generational curse breaking, we're talking about the complexities of inner healing, how far that can go, especially when we're talking about dissociations, soul parts and also just the depth of trauma. I think that Bob's strategies are gold. I really do. I believe that God gave him an understanding and I believe that you know, without boasting, in Bob, but I believe that Bob is a brilliant man. I believe that God really used him in this area.

Navigating the Emotional Maze of Deliverance: What Ministers Need to Know

Speaker 2 11:38

And people ask me. They're like why do you stick with methods and procedures? And I tell them it's because it works and people get free. They're like why do you stick with methods and procedures? And I tell them it's because it works and people get free. Especially when we're talking about generational curses and also when it comes to trauma, there needs to be methods in place, we need to be educated, and I think that one of the biggest problems that we're having in the deliverance ministry right now it's either. It is just all about the up and out method without understanding hey, how many demons are there? Why is this person hurting? What's the trauma in this person's background? All we do is we're just like come out, jezebel, you know, and it's like, well, that could work, but also you could do a lot more harm to that person because you don't know what's going on.

Compassion in Action: Deliverance with a Heart for Healing

Speaker 2 12:19

You don't know the trauma in their background, you know. You don't know how many generational curses they have. You don't know if their grandparents, you know, are witches. You don't really know what's going on until you implement more methods and procedures. You know. Also, I'm all about the prophetic, but I even think that sometimes prophetic movements, if they're not careful, they can just rely solely on their giftings and they're not really taking time to understand. You know, how did the demons get in the person? How many demons are really there? Why is the person hurting? It just seems to become ultra demon heavy and I feel like, even though a lot of people out there mean well, I feel like we're missing a key ingredient when it comes to deliverance ministry, and it's the heart of a person. Let's not treat people like they're demons. Let's figure out why they're hurting and what opened up the door for demons to be there.

Speaker 1 13:08

Yeah, that's an excellent point, and when you're calling people up to an altar at the end of a service for deliverance, there's not time to sit down with them and explore their life. There's not we do, and I've mentioned this before a spiritual profile where we have probably 50, 30, 40, 50 questions on there where we assess the person's life, what mental health conditions, what traumas they've been through. There's all kinds of questions, the family dynamics. So under Larson you spend a lot of time with people and I think a lot of the deliverance ministries that are out there they don't spend a lot of time with people and that's why it doesn't work, because there are generational curses and there are traumas that need to be worked through and that takes time and our sessions typically last two hours. Every session Our first session with clients we go through their intake questions and that alone takes two hours. That's how much time we spend with people to understand their heart and their hurts and their life.

Spiritual Blind Spots: How Mega Churches Overlook Spiritual Warfare

Speaker 1 14:24

Recently we were working with a client and she was older. She was probably maybe 62, mid-60s, so she had a life of trauma, a life, and it took us four hours, pretty close to four hours, to just go through her intake questions and take notes as we talked about her life, the amount of trauma that she had been through, the sexual abuse, the rapes, the molestations, the multiple husbands, the abandonments, the divorces, the impact on the children. On and on it goes, and so we're assessing this as exorcists, we're documenting, we're taking notes that we can build a case to say here's the pattern. It started on the mother's side with she was molested, then her mother was molested and this goes back to a generational curse. It's involved. Tyler, back to you. When you work with a client in your congregation as a pastor, can you share with the audience? What does that look like?

Speaker 2 15:43

Yes, I would love to, and also I wanted to just say I love what you're talking about. I think this conversation is needed. I think people need to understand how important deliverance ministry really is and to do it effectively, because people are hurting, there are souls at stake and I just think it's so important that, if we're going to practice deliverance, that we actually understand that there's a soulish aspect to this. There's people's emotions that take place. I like to say that, as deliverance ministers or as exorcists, we're actually dealing with the human psyche. We're dealing with what happened to somebody's mind and even though we're not psychologists we're not licensed counselors necessarily but we have to understand how the mind works and how demons behave and how demons mess with people's minds, because I just think it's so dangerous to treat people like they're a demon and going back and trying to just piggybacking off of what you were saying with ministers, just spending 30 minutes with people commanding Jezebel to go. In my opinion and I say this out of respect, I don't say this with impure motives, but I just think a lot of it is because people really don't care, especially ministers. They really don't care about what's hurting you. They just want what's there out, and I think that's the disconnect.

Deliverance Ministry in the Modern Church: A Forgotten Key

Speaker 2 16:58

I think we need compassion in this ministry. We have to care for people's souls. We have to care for people's hearts. What's going on with you? Why are you hurting? Who hurt you? Who rejected you, who abandoned you? And as a pastor, I take more of a discipleship approach. I'll get to know a person in the congregation. I will make sure that they understand that Jesus loves them and they understand the gospel and they establish lordship with Christ. And also I'll have them fill out an intake form, as you were talking about earlier. And so then we go through the deliverance process with them and in the meantime, as we're going through the deliverance process, we're also teaching them and equipping them how to engage in spiritual warfare, how to fight back, how to recognize when demons are attacking them, how to take their thoughts captive, and so we really walk hand in hand with people to the best of our ability to ensure that they're doing everything that they can do to get free and stay free and fight back in Jesus' name.

A Gospel Crisis: How the Church Lost Its Way in Spiritual Battle

Speaker 1 17:59

It saddens me that Christians the majority do not understand spiritual warfare whatsoever. Pastor Chris, in the last episode if you've not heard that about the free Methodist minister I interviewed, can Christians have Demons listen to it? I interviewed, can Christians have Demons Listen to it? And he's all about discipleship and discipling people and training them in the foundational core concepts of Christianity, and just that. People are untrained, undiscipled. They go to churches that just tell them that God loves you and the grace message He'll forgive you for whatever you do, and so they live this illusion of Christianity.

Speaker 1 18:45

How many pastors teach about hell? That you're going to burn in hell, where there's going to be weeping and gnashing of teeth. You never hear it. You know why Because they care about numbers teeth. You never hear it. You know why Because they care about numbers and I don't mean to come across as judgy, but we are in the last days, like, in my personal opinion, christ is going to be returning soon.

Speaker 1 19:07

This is why there's so much demonic activity in culture. This is why it's so open and unashamed. People don't care. I can go into a Starbucks and sit down any day of the week with a witch or a warlock that's in there having a coffee and just talk to them like it's normal, because culturally it is, and so it's a very complex situation. So back to your point though, tyler, about the discipleship, teaching them the Word of God and the foundational concepts that we are sinners and if we die living in sin you will go to hell. That's just the Bible. Don't hear any of that anymore.

Deliverance Done Right: Finding Balance in Faith and Ministry

Speaker 1 19:52

And then teaching spiritual warfare. And then teaching spiritual warfare. The people that I put through exorcism sessions. They absolutely have no understanding of spiritual warfare. They don't know how to fight Satan. They don't even know that you're supposed to quote the Bible against Satan when he attacks your mind. They don't understand anything. Why is that? Why don't they understand Satan? Why don't they understand spiritual warfare? Because it's not taught. It's not taught what is taught. God loves you. You're special Sin all you want. Ask forgiveness. You'll make it to heaven. You'll be just fine. You'll be just fine Sincerely.

Speaker 1 20:44

That is the generalized theme of many Christian churches in today's environment, and so it's sad, because we work with clients that ask where can I go to a church that actually preaches the gospel of Jesus Christ? It's so hard for people to find a church that preaches the gospel, the whole gospel, the entirety of God's Word. A lot of the churches now have fallen away from the Christian model and they are like the transvestite pastors Christian model and they are like the transvestite pastors, homosexual marriages, all of that kind of stuff. A lot of the denominations have fell away into that and it's limited people's ability to find churches. They struggle to find a church that actually has conservative Christian teaching established in the Word of God. That's crazy. Who would ever thought that they struggle to find a church?

Speaker 1 21:42

And Pastor Tyler is one of those churches that preach the entire counsel of God's Word in Carmel, indiana. I'm going to put a link to his website so if anyone's in that area or you're passing through, you can visit. I'm going to put a link to his website so if anyone's in that area or you're passing through, you can visit. I mentioned this to come back to you, tyler, because I know for you you want deliverance to simply be a function of your church, not the entirety of it, and I agree with that. Deliverance should just simply be a part of the church, and I agree with that. Deliverance should just simply be a part of the church, just like the Catholic Church has exorcism ministry. It's just a ministry for if somebody needs help, it's not the entire thrust of the denomination, and it shouldn't be that way in the Protestant churches either. And, tyler, this is your passion and heart as well. Tell us a little bit about that.

Neglecting Doctrine: How the Church Missed the Mark on Exorcism

Speaker 2 22:36

Yes, absolutely, justin. I love this. I feel like we're on the same page, I feel like we have the same heartbeat for this matter, you know. First, before I even really go anywhere in this topic, I really want to just draw everyone's attention to Acts, chapter 20, starting in verse number 26. And the Word of God says therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all, for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. So, especially when it comes to pastoral ministry, it's very important that the focal point is to preach the whole counsel of God, and what that means is to preach the entire Bible, to preach every doctrine of the Bible, not just grace alone, not just faith, but also repentance, also on hell, also on heaven. We need to preach the whole Bible. We need to believe that the Bible is the holy, inspired, inerrant, completely true word of God. And I think that the biggest problem that we're having today, justin, is not just with deliverance ministry, it's not even just with prophetic ministry or any other type of ministry. I think the biggest problem is actually much deeper than that. I think we're having a gospel problem.

Speaker 2 23:53

I really believe that we, as the church has gotten away from the true gospel, the real gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the real gospel has very little to do about you and has everything to do about Christ. I like to tease people, but what I say is that the church no longer preaches theology anymore, which is all about God or all about Christ. Now we preach we have exchanged it and now we preach me-ology, which means it's all about me, and I think that it's very scary. You know, you look at the conditions of our world right now, justin, and, like you were mentioning a few minutes ago, going to Starbucks having a conversation with a witch is now considered normal with culture, right, but at the same time, it's well. How do we get to this point? You know, why are we here right now? Some can argue it's because we're in the last days, and I agree with that. But I also think it's because the church hasn't been doing its job, and I say that respectfully. I'm not trying to bash anybody. I don't have a single church in mind or a pastor in mind. I have no vendetta, but I'm just speaking from my heart.

Speaker 2 24:58

Here is that we have gotten away from the true gospel of Jesus Christ. We've gotten away from doctrine, we've gotten away from theology, we've gotten away from deliverance. It was very normal, even within Protestant circles at least with some, not all, but it was very normal for them to practice deliverance too in church history, until the rise of psychology came about 100 years ago. So you can even look at that in history it's like psychology replaced deliverance ministry in the church, and maybe that's another conversation in and of itself. My heart for ministry or within the church is that deliverance is not the focal point and it should not overshadow the overall ministry approach, but the emphasis should be on integrating deliverance in a balanced manner within the ministry. So therefore, as the pastor at Revelation Church, I found it crucial to prioritize a well-rounded approach to pastoral ministry and incorporate deliverance as a vital part of approach to pastoral ministry and incorporate deliverance as a vital part of our mission.

The Hidden History of Exorcism: Lessons from the Early Church

Speaker 2 25:59

We're not closet deliverance ministers at Revelation Church. We don't hide what we believe. We just don't make it the main focus. What we make the main focus is Christ and the gospel. We want the gospel to be the primary focus. We want to see people repent of their sins and believe that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior, the only way to inherit salvation, the only way to God, the only way to heaven, and with that we have to understand that we are sinners and we're desperately in need of a Savior.

Speaker 2 26:27

You know, and here's the thing is, this has been really challenging and I don't know how much you want to talk about this aspect and maybe we can talk about it more later. But there's been a lot of issues that I've seen as a pastor within deliverance, and it's really because there's a battle of these extremes going on, where it's either everything has to be deliverance or not at all, and maybe we can talk about that in a minute. So I just want to jump past that, but I would really like to set camp there in a minute. So I just want to jump past that, but I would really like to set camp there in a little bit, if that's okay with you. But I just think that there's a lot of problems and it's time to re-evaluate and return to a more balanced approach to ministry within the church.

Speaker 1 27:10

And you know.

Speaker 2 27:10

With that being said, if we're talking about deliverance, you know I have no problem with people saying well, you know, we need to build a deliverance center, or if they have a deliverance ministry that is connected to a church, but they're doing their own thing. You know, I understand that and that's fine. I think where the disconnect comes for me is when you say I'm a pastor and all I do is preach on deliverance. It's no, you are called to preach on the whole counsel of God, and what we're seeing is we're seeing a huge disconnect here.

Seeking Freedom: Tyler’s Congregation and the Power of Deliverance

Speaker 2 27:36

Even in prophetic circles, it's like everything becomes about the prophetic. So it's here we are talking about blood moons or the return of the gods, or you know what it means. There's just a lot of things, and we're getting into the political sphere and all these things are going on, and even though I think that there's a time and a place for those things, it should not be the focal point of ministry and it doesn't matter what office that you walk in. What is primary is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ died for sinners and we have to preach Christ, jesus and him crucified. I think it's so important and I think that's the biggest condition of where we're at today is that we have failed, as ministers, to preach the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1 28:20

Wow, you have my head spinning in a million different directions. But yeah, this is all good. This is a good message for all of us, myself included, pastor Tyler included because we've got to reground ourselves in Christian doctrine. We have to reground ourselves in core theology and doctrine of our Christian religion and we haven't. We've just piecemealed parts out and rode those horses, so to speak, and people are galloping along because it feels good just talking about God's love. It feels good talking about grace, but that's just part of the message.

Speaker 1 29:07

How often do you hear a minister talking about suffering? Not too often. Talking about suffering not too often. Why? Because it doesn't keep people in the church. It's about numbers and they got to pay bills. It's about bringing money in.

The Silent Struggle: Challenges in Deliverance Ministry

Speaker 1 29:24

Now, I'm not saying every minister is this way, but there is an element of truth to this what I'm saying. If you're getting up saying that you're suffering because God's purifying you, or perhaps God is disciplining you for your rebellion against what he has asked you to give up or do in life, hebrews, chapter 12, verse 6 tells us for the Lord disciplines those he loves and he punishes each one he accepts as his child. When is the last time you have heard a message like this, right, that doesn't go over real well with people. When you get up in front of the Christian church and say you know what Christianity can cost you everything. It's going to cost you absolutely everything. Jesus said in Matthew 10, verse 37, if you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine. Or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. This concept of giving up all is repeated in Luke 9, verse 23. Then he said to the crowd If any of you wants to be my follower, you must give up your own way, take up your cross daily and follow me. You don't hear stuff like that anymore. But that is the counsel, the entire counsel of God's Word. You never hear a minister say you know what? Paul was beheaded in Rome for his faith. You don't hear stuff like that. You know what you hear in Americanized Christianity, and I should say Westernized Christianity Doesn't matter, could be in Europe, it could be in Australia, canada. The westernized Christianity is all about prosperity, love and grace. That's not the entire counsel of God's Word, and so part of that entire counsel is deliverance.

Finding Harmony: Balancing Deliverance with the Full Gospel

Speaker 1 31:28

Ministry is exorcism. A third of Christ's ministry was exorcism. We got to get back to being grounded in doctrine and this is why I've been bringing on I brought on Pastor Chris and I brought on Pastor Tyler was to challenge all of our thinking, including myself, about getting back to core, foundational doctrine and getting grounded in Christ. We've lost it. We've lost it. We've absolutely lost it. We're sitting around in church drinking cups of coffee and eating cookies For real, that happens and singing songs all about ourselves, how God loves us and he's faithful and he's going to help us. And then you hear a message of hey, if you have a tough time this week, know God's with you. Do something special for a friend, maybe. Buy him a coffee. That type of stuff is being preached. Buy a person a meal behind you in McDonald's and just tell them God loves you.

Why the Gospel is the Heartbeat of Deliverance Ministry

Speaker 1 32:34

I'm not saying that's bad, but this is the just. It's not true Christianity. True Christianity is what read it. It's in the Bible. What happened to the disciples? Right, that's true Christianity. They went around preaching, winning people to Jesus Christ, and they suffered for it. They were persecuted. Oh, we don't talk about that. That's going to make the people quit coming to my church that you could be persecuted. You might lose your life for Jesus Christ. Oh, don't talk about that. We're not going to get as much money coming in. So, anyhow, there's a lot here that we're discussing, but I think the underlying theme is getting grounded, coming back to our roots as Christians, getting back into solid doctrine, and part of that solid doctrine is that Christians can have demons and require exorcism, or what some call deliverance, and historically, exorcism is documented after the death of Christ.

Speaker 1 33:50

There are historical documents that mention exorcism. It was performed frequently by the early church. For example, in his second apology, justin Martyr, born 100 AD and died 165 AD, mentions that many Christians by the name of Jesus Christ were casting out demons and evil spirits. Another one, eusebius, born 260 AD and died 339 AD, records various miracles and exorcisms performed by early Christians. He references the power of exorcisms as evidence of the divine truth of Christianity and the authority given by Christ to his followers. There are many more past these two men. So if early church historians were documenting exorcism as a normal function of the church after the death of Jesus Christ, who roughly died between 30 AD and 33 AD, why aren't current pastors teaching this to congregations and performing exorcisms?

Speaker 1 35:04

So this isn't anything strange and bizarre. It's just we have to wrestle with this westernized version of Christianity and come back to the roots of our faith. Come back to it, get grounded, sell out to Jesus Christ right. Get rid of sin in your life. Don't just keep sinning. Throw the stuff out, quit doing what you're doing. That's sin. Come back to Jesus Christ fully, get rid of your demons that compel you to do things right and just prepping yourself for the return of christ.

Speaker 1 35:41

Getting into a church that teaches the entire council. It took me a long time to find a church, guys. A long time Because all the churches that I would go to were what I'm explaining God loves you. They're like psychological self-help messages. But I wanted the entire council and I finally found a church that does this. And my minister right now is going through the book of Ezra, verse by verse, historically, breaking it down, relating it to our lives so we could understand the Bible, and he's taking the whole counsel of God's Word, the whole counsel. He'll look at the concepts in the New Testament and break those down. He'll look at the concepts in the Old Testament and he teaches about hell, that there is a real hell, that Jesus taught a lot about hell, weeping and gnashing of teeth and all of that. Praise God, I was able to find a church that teaches the entire doctrine. You can find that too.

Speaker 1 36:51

That's my encouragement to you is to really you know, this is kind of a wake-up call for everyone, myself included, like we got to get our heads back in the game. It's not about going to church on Sunday and hearing happy, feel-good messages and then all week long, not even read the Bible, maybe listen to Christian music on the way home from work, maybe open a YouTube video once a week or a couple times a week. That's not Christianity. Christianity has to do with complete surrenderance to Jesus Christ, every area of our life, and that's a process that doesn't happen overnight. That's part of the journey with Jesus. We give it up bit by bit, step by step.

Speaker 1 37:35

I'm not saying we have to be perfect, but if we get back to those core doctrines, I encourage you to find a church that focuses on the gospel message of Jesus Christ that he died for our sins, that we are sinful people in need of a Savior. My pastor integrates this truth into every sermon, always inviting the congregation to give their lives to Jesus Christ. Why? Because the mission of Christians is to lead others to Christ. That's the heart of the gospel message. Oh, there's so much there that is just overlooked in today's times. So, tyler, coming back to you, I know discipleship's big for you, teaching the entire gospel when you work with somebody in your church that needs deliverance ministry. What are some of the things that these Christians are bringing to the table and sharing with you? That's a really good question.

Speaker 2 38:42

I think there's not just like a one-size-fits-all for this kind of question. So many of them are hurting, many of them are looking for freedom, many of them have tried going a lot of other places and, as you mentioned before, they're not finding the help that they need. Listen for me personally, justin. I take a little different approach with this. My perspective's a little different, and the reason why is and I don't mean to just set camp here and make this podcast all about just being gospel focused, even though I think that's of vital importance but what I noticed for me personally and this has been one of the biggest frustrations for me in ministry that I had to get to the Lord. A lot of people come from mega churches or just all these other churches and what they want is they want me to help their pastor. They would say things like this to me we love what you're doing, we love your heart, we love how you're preaching the whole counsel of God, but only if my pastor would do that, and so it's like they're coming for me for help. They don't trust their own pastor to help them, but they don't want to leave their comfort, and I think that's scary. And now, please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that all these people should just leave their churches to come to the church I pastor. I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is what breaks my heart is you have all these people who can't get help from their pastor, but yet they don't want to leave Egypt. You see what I'm saying. They want freedom, just to go back to their lukewarm churches, just to go back to their dysfunction, just to go back to their lukewarm churches, just to go back to their dysfunction, just to go back to their sin. And what I do in my approach when I'm working with people one-on-one is okay. I know you're hurting, I know people have hurt you, okay, but do you believe the gospel of Jesus Christ? Do you realize that you're a sinner and that you need to repent of your sins? And I know that may not be popular, but it's so, so important.

Speaker 2 40:41

And this is what happened to me. I'll just go ahead and just go for it, because I, you know, I planted this church four years ago, by the grace of God, and we started to really get a high attendance for just opening the church and just starting out, because we did deliverance ministry and we're getting to this place where now we're standing room only or we're running out of chairs or people are outside the door because they want freedom and all of that stuff is great and we're like man, this is amazing. But what happened was Justin, it hijacked our ministry because then people didn't want to come hear the gospel, they just wanted their demons cast out of them. People didn't want to repent of their sins, they just wanted their problems to go away.

Invitation to Attend Revelation Church

Speaker 2 41:24

And I got to this place where people are coming from everywhere and they were coming through the doors and then they would say things like this they're like are we going to have deliverance today? I said right now we're scheduled to preach on Romans. And they're like are you going to do what a lot of these other guys do and are we going to see manifestations? Are people going to be rolling on the floor or anything like that? I said here's the thing, brother. I said and I just want to be honest with you I said, if people start manifesting a demon and the anointing is in the service to do deliverance, then we'll cast that demon out of somebody.

Core Christianity: The Role of Repentance in Lasting Freedom

Speaker 2 41:56

But we're not going to try to orchestrate a situation or get people up here just to manifest demons to have a show, and he didn't like that very much and he walked out. He said I want to go to a church where I'm seeing all these manifestations and if this isn't it, then I'm not coming back. And I think that's a big issue and, once again, I'm not coming from this place of hurt, I'm just coming from this place of what is going on. What has the church been reduced to? And maybe I'm just in this boat alone because I'm me, justin. You know enough about me to know that I'm all about deliverance. People need freedom, but deliverance should not be the focal point of Christianity. It should be, as we've talked about multiple times already on this podcast. It should be a byproduct.

Speaker 2 42:37

It should be as we've talked about multiple times already on this podcast. You know it should be a byproduct, this should be a function of the church, but not the focal point. We have to go back to the gospel and right now I'm just seeing a lot of problems within the church at large here in America. And this is why because it's evident that the church mindset tends to swing between extremes a heavy emphasis on theology to the exclusion of spirituality, or an intense focus on spirituality at the expense of theological understanding. This has led to an all-or-nothing mentality, be it spiritual gifts, prophecy or deliverance. Consequently, the church has lots of equilibrium and focus. It's either oh, do we practice prophecy here? Okay, then every single service, people need to prophesy. Do we practice deliverance here? Okay, then every single service people need to prophesy. Oh, are you teaching out of the book of Ezra? Okay, then this is a teaching church. So every single service it needs to just be teaching. Only it's like where did we get to this place?

Speaker 2 43:44

Part of the whole counsel of God is incorporating the gifts of the spirit. It's incorporating deliverance, as you said. It's believing the entirety of the Bible and implementing it under the inspiration and the guidance and the anointing of the Holy ghost and I'm just I'm just excited right here because I just feel like this is so important to understand. Is that, yes? Do we need to go to a church that practices deliverance? Sure, absolutely. Do we need to find a church that believes in all nine gifts of the Spirit? Yes, absolutely. But we need a church that preaches the gospel and the whole counsel of God, that believes in all these other things. It's so desperately needed.

Speaker 1 44:17

Amen. The gospel and the salvation message is the key to it all. Sorry to interrupt. Go on, preach it.

The Power of Repentance: The Key to Lasting Transformation

Speaker 2 44:25

The gospel message is the central theme of Scripture. It is not simply the basics of Christianity, but it is the overarching theme of the entirety of Scripture, which means it's truly a wonder to behold. And that's why the apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2.1, and when I come to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. What did he do? He came and he preached Christ Jesus and him crucified. Or Charles Spurgeon, one of the greatest preachers that ever lived, also known as the Prince of Preachers, would find a way to share the gospel message, no matter what passage of scripture he used for his primary text or his sermon. So he could be taking Malachi 3.10, talking about tithing and then somehow figure out a way to tie that into Melchizedek and how Melchizedek was a type and shadow of Christ and how Melchizedek was the high priest. Now Jesus Christ fulfills that function and you must repent of your sins and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. Why would he do things like this? Because Spurgeon understood that he understood the vital importance of the message of the gospel. This message is the sacred task that all faithful preachers, deliverance ministers, prophets, apostles, teachers. They must preach and seek to understand the power of God and the preeminence of Christ. Do you realize that as Jesus started in his ministry, he said we must repent of our sins and believe the gospel of God. You can find that in Mark 1, 14 through 15. Jesus came right out of the gate saying repent and believe.

Speaker 2 45:59

Martin Luther, the great reformer, defined the gospel as God sent his son into the world to save sinners, crush hell, overcome death, take away sin and satisfy the law. That is the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel of Jesus Christ says that you're awesome, god's awesome. Let's follow Jesus because that's awesome. No, you must repent of your sins. You must sacrifice your life for the things of God. You must submit to his will. You must love him, not because you have to work to earn your salvation, but because he's worthy of it. In fact, salvation is by grace, through faith, not by our own works, and you can find this in Ephesians, chapter two, eight and nine. So we can't do anything to earn our salvation. All we have to do is repent and believe. We need to repent and have faith. We can do nothing to save ourselves from the penalty of sin.

Speaker 2 46:51

Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone and in Christ alone, and that's why, in Mark 12, 30, jesus said that we must love the Lord, our God, with all of our hearts, mind, soul and strength. We have to understand that Christianity isn't about how much God loves me. God does love you, but he also wants you to love him, and that's why this is what Jesus believes. When they ask him, what do you have to do to become a pastor? And Jesus said you must love your neighbor as yourselves.

Speaker 2 47:26

Therefore, we must conclude that we are mere mortals, lost, dying in sin, depraved, and desperately need a savior, and we have to come to terms with our reality. And we must believe that there's only one person worthy of our worship and our devotion and our praise, and that is Jesus Christ. We must believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God and regard him as both fully man and fully God. We must believe that he became a man, was born of a virgin, conceived by the Holy Spirit, lived a sinless life, died on the cross for our sins, rose on the third day and is alive forevermore. Now I don't know who's listening to this podcast right now, and I don't even know if you agree with this message, but I'm here to tell you today that Jesus loves you and he paid the ultimate price for you. And if you repent of your sins and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, if you have faith in Christ, you will be saved. But you have to abandon your dead works. You need to sacrifice your life for Christ and see. That's the thing with true, radical biblical Christianity is that Christ sacrificed his life for you so you can sacrifice your life to him. We need to understand that.

Losing to Win: The True Cost of Following Jesus

Speaker 2 48:37

In early church history, the early church father Athanasius said God became like you so you can become like him. In other words, he said that the son of God became the son of man so that the sons of men can become sons of God. Don't you realize that Jesus Christ didn't die on the cross to save you, just so you can live in your sin, just so you can live in your sin, just so you can live in your torment, just so you can live in your problems, just so you can be demonized. No, no, ma'am, no sir, no, brothers and sisters, christ died for you so you can be triumphant. Christ died for you so you can walk above sin. Christ died for you so you can be delivered, set free and made whole. Christ died for you so you can love him with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.

Speaker 2 49:20

You have to understand that before you met Christ, your heart was hardened, your heart was not regenerated, your heart was filled with all evil and contempt. But when Christ saved you, he pulled you out of darkness and into his marvelous light. And that's why it's so important, because Jesus said in Luke 5, 32, I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. There is no gospel without repentance. We need to get back to repentance and we need to get back to faith. That's so important. It's so important.

Speaker 2 49:53

And why is this important with deliverance ministry? Because true, authentic deliverance ministry works as a byproduct of the gospel message, and what that means is even in true deliverance ministry, we have to focus on repentance and faith. We need to renounce the things that we've done, the pacts that we made with the enemy. We need to renounce the witchcraft that we partnered with in our past. We have to renounce it and break it. We need to renounce the witchcraft that we partnered with in our past. We have to renounce it and break it. We need to repent unto God.

The Ultimate Surrender: An Invitation to New Life in Christ

Speaker 2 50:19

And what I'm so afraid of, justin, in these times is that many of us are focusing on a deliverance ministry. That's void of the gospel. It's focusing on deliverance that's void of repentance. Yes, I understand there's more than just repentance involved. We need to renounce things, we need to be educated, we need to have methods and procedures and all of those things are great, but we also have to understand we need to be saved. What is it worth us getting free of the demon if we're not going to repent of our sins and turn away from sin and cling to the cross of Christ and go to hell? We need to be saved. Deliverance is for saved people and that's why I don't understand where all these other mindsets come in.

Speaker 2 51:01

Where a Christian can't be demonized, what do you mean? A Christian can be demonized. A Christian can have anything that he wants to have. If a Christian wants a demon, he can open up a door to a demon. If a Christian wants to live demon free, guess what A Christian can get all those demons cast out of him. Why? Because of the power of the cross of Christ. And I just think it's so important that the gospel, as well as deliverance, should focus on repentance and faith and must magnify Christ and the cross of Christ. Jesus said if I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me and I'm just.

Speaker 2 51:37

I'm looking at the condition of where things are today and we're seeing all this, this rise in deliverance ministry. We're seeing all these YouTube videos. We're seeing people become famous and have movies and walking on the red carpet. Tell me, where in the Bible did the apostle Paul enter into a city and they just threw out a red carpet for him to walk on? We have to get away from the celebrity mindset of Christianity. We need to become servants again. We need to fall in love with Jesus again. We need to know that he paid the ultimate price, not so we can become popular, but so we can become Christ, so we can heal the sick, cast out devils and raise the dead.

Speaker 2 52:14

We need Jesus Christ back in our churches. We need Jesus Christ back in our deliverance ministry. We need Jesus Christ back in our churches. We need Jesus Christ back in our deliverance ministry. We need Jesus Christ back in our prophetic ministry. We need him. We're on a race against time. Christ can come back at any moment and so many of us are lost because we're boasting in ourselves, we're boasting in our popularity, we're boasting in our departments of ministry.

Speaker 2 52:38

We're making our focus on the gift of the Spirit and not on Christ Jesus and Him crucified. We need to get back to the gospel because if we get the gospel right, everything else will fall into place. We need the Holy Spirit, we need to be baptized in the Spirit. We need to cast out devils. Why? Because it's part of the Great Commission to cast out devils. Why Because it's part of the Great Commission the cast out devils, the heal, the sick to raise the dead. That didn't end. That is still going on. But we need to regroup. We need to get our focus back. We need to understand that if we truly want to see people set free, then we need to lead them to the cross of Christ and they need to repent of their sins. Lead them to the cross of Christ and they need to repent of their sins, and that's when we're going to see a dramatic shift.

Speaker 1 53:21

And turnaround in deliverance ministry. Guys, I think we just attended church and that is Pastor Tyler. So if you're ever in Carmel, indiana, stop by Revelation Church and if you live by there, get there. That's what you can look forward to. I was very touched hearing his heart, hearing his passion about how we have to get back to core Christianity, get back to repentance of sin. When we go through exorcism sessions with people, we have them repent of sin. Right, because there is willful sin, where people willfully do something that they know is wrong. That is sin. So we have them confess and repent of that sin. And then there's this kind of hey, I didn't know it was sin. So we have them repent of that sin as well. Because the Bible says this confess your sins, confess them, and he is faithful and just to forgive you of them. And here's the kicker cleanse you from all unrighteous, but you have to confess your sin. I echo Pastor Tyler's passion of repentance. It's essential when it comes to deliverance. I hope that you have found this episode interesting. Okay, pastor Tyler and I have hopped on a couple of horses and blazed some trails all over the place and there's smoke behind us and we're still going forward. What I hope you take away from this is number one finding a church that teaches the entire counsel of the Word of God and focuses on the gospel, the salvation message. That's what Christianity is about. The Messiah is coming. All through the Old Testament the Messiah is coming. The Messiah is coming. The Messiah comes, repent of your sins, he dies for our sins. He's buried. He rose from the dead. Right this is the gospel message. And then serving Christ till we draw our last breath reading that Bible daily, right. So that's the takeaway. Find a church that teaches the entire council, just not feel-good, psychological, self-help messages. I think the other takeaway that I would like for you to have is that deliverance is something that takes a lot of time and a lot of repentance and a lot of life change. Lifestyle change that's the second thing. And then the third thing I think all of us and I'm speaking to myself too we should take from this is finding a church that's balanced. So I would encourage you to even consider going back and re-listening to this episode and allow the Holy Spirit to challenge you.

Speaker 1 56:22

If you're listening to this and you feel agitated and irritated at what's being spoken, that's a good thing, because it means it's challenging you. You're uncomfortable, that's a good thing. When I go to church, I'm uncomfortable. Last week I was leaving with my kids and I said whew. And they said what, dad? I said that's a tough one. I said I got some repenting to do. Man, that was tough. And they just laughed at me in a good way. But I leave challenge. My minister challenges me. He helps us feel uncomfortable and so if you feel uncomfortable hearing some of this stuff, that's a good thing, man. It's challenging you. Don't just shut it off and not listen. I encourage you to go back and listen to it again and pray to the Lord.

Speaker 1 57:12

And it's what I said multiple times through this episode we are in the last days. That's my personal opinion. I've never seen it this bad. It's really bad and I think most of you listening understand that it's really bad. It's really bad. Get cleaned up. Get cleaned up. Let's all, myself included get our hearts aligned with Christ. Get the sin out of our life. The compromise.

Speaker 1 57:39

Remember what God said in the Bible. You never hear this preached in today's time. This is never preached where God said either be hot or cold. I'd rather you be hot or cold, not lukewarm, or I'll spew you out of my mouth, spit you out of my mouth. He's like pick a side, don't be lukewarm. Really frustrates God when people are lukewarm.

Speaker 1 58:03

Right, going to church, doing the church thing, but living half in the world, half in church, all that kind I mean. I've been there myself personally. There came a point where it was time to sell out, and I did. And then I went through exorcism sessions and got cleaned up, repented of all the sin and am serving Christ faithfully. But I am still a broken, sinful man, as are all of us. That's why Christ died on the cross. We're not perfect. We sin, we repent, we get up, we dust our butt off and we get back on the bike. I always tell people get on the bike and pedal, and when you fall off and you sin, you get up. I'm sorry, lord, I confess it exactly what it was. Dust your butt off, get on the bike and keep pedaling. Who makes it to the end is those who don't give up. That's who makes it. So I hope you felt challenged by this. I'm going to come to Tyler in a minute. I hope you have felt challenged by this, inspired, motivated for change, and I share this.

Speaker 1 59:08

I brought Pastor Tyler on because I wanted to encourage you guys who are listening. We're not here to beat you up. We're not here to beat up other ministries. We're just talking real, like we're just being real. We don't have it all figured out. We're not perfect, we definitely have opinions, but we at least got to get back to that core doctrine, core Christianity, and clean up before Jesus. All of us, myself included, tyler, I'm going to come back to you.

Speaker 1 59:45

At the end of every episode, I always ask my guests to offer words of encouragement to the audience. There are people listening right now who are upset at what they've heard. They're upset by it and I say it's a good thing to be challenged in that way. There are some listening that know that they have to clean up and the Holy Spirit's working on their heart and they're going to do it. I know that in my knower there are people who need deliverance and they're still torn on it.

Speaker 1 1:00:18

It's hard for people to humble themselves, pastor Tyler, and come for help. They don't want to admit that they have problems. They don't want to go into their pain and look back at the past. They want to act like it's not there, and so they live with demons and they're tormented. There's listeners like that that keep coming back because they know this is true. They just struggle with the humility in coming. And then there are people listening right now who absolutely need deliverance. They know they're on fire. They're like this is it, man? This was it, this was the message I'm coming for deliverance, justin. All kinds of listeners, all kinds of ages, but they keep coming back because they know that this is truth For all of these people. At the end here, tyler, what is it that you would like to share with them from your heart and in a compassionate way to encourage and inspire the audience here? What is it that you have on your heart that you would like to share with them?

Speaker 2 1:01:21

I would say that repentance is a good thing. I think the biggest problem that people have, you know, kind of going back just into how you opened up this podcast this afternoon is that you know, a lot of pastors don't agree with deliverance. A lot of people have a hard time with it. I think the reason why is because I think, deep down inside they're trying to run away from themselves and if they have a demon, I think that automatically what goes into their mind is that they're a bad person. And here's the thing is the Bible teaches that there's none good but God. We all need Jesus. We all need to repent of our sins and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ to be saved, and it's by the grace of God that we're able to receive deliverance. It's a good thing. It doesn't mean that you're horrible and there's no help for you. It means that Christ loves you despite your sin, and it's his will for you to be free. And the word of God also says that God chastises those who he loves. So I went through a season and I want to tell the listeners I went through a season where I just felt like all I was doing was repenting and all I was doing was getting rebuked and corrected by the Lord, by spiritual leaders, by mentors, and I was trying to figure out why. And after I went through that season, it's like a lot of the rebuke and the corrections and all of those things kind of just went away and I began to hunger for it. It's like God, I want to continue to grow. Where did all this stuff go? And I know that doesn't make sense, but there's something about repenting and humbling yourself and desiring the correction of the Lord, because you know when the correction of the Lord is there, that he's near. If you were raised by two good parents and they disciplined you, they didn't do that from afar, did they? They didn't do that on another state or another country. No, they brought you near to them and they corrected you. Why? Because they love you, and I think it's so important to understand that repentance isn't a bad thing. Repentance doesn't mean you're not accepted and unless you get everything right, then I'm going to love you, and I think that's what people instinctively think and that's not the heart of true repentance.

Speaker 2 1:03:35

The heart of true repentance is to understand what Christ did at the cross and to understand that God is holy and righteous and that your unholiness, your unrighteousness, can't coexist with Christ in you. It can't, and that's why the Bible says that carnality is enmity against God. It wages war against God because it doesn't understand the things of God. And so when God, since God loves you, he's going to correct you. Since God loves you, you're going to hear messages. That's not going to feel so good, but that doesn't come from a place of rejection, that comes from a place of, hey, I love you, come back to me. This is what true love looks like. This is what you need to do. This is where I'm leading you.

Speaker 2 1:04:16

I mean, just think about, in the Exodus, okay, when you had all the people of Israel, okay, being pulled out of Egypt. Right, they were in the wilderness. Right, they didn't like it, they didn't like where they were, they didn't like the way they felt, but they forgot to understand where they were pulled out of. And I just want to encourage you today. If you're a born again believer in Christ Jesus, you've been pulled out of darkness and you are in the marvelous light of Christ. And if God is correcting you, it's only coming from a place of love, compassion and mercy. Receive the correction of the Lord, repent of your sins, because God loves you and God wants to take you higher, and I want to close with this.

Speaker 2 1:04:56

There's a passage of scripture and forgive me, I don't remember the reference at the top of my head but Jesus said unless you lose your life, you find it. And I think a lot of us skip over that passage, or a lot of ministers don't preach that passage because it's too profound. What do you mean? I have to lose my life to gain it. And I think a lot of us are trying to hold on to our lives with everything that we have, instead of saying you know what, lord, I'm going to lose it for you because I see your worth, I see your majesty and I see your great love for me. So I trust you with my life and I lay it down.

Speaker 2 1:05:31

So I encourage everyone that's listening to the sound of my voice that Jesus loves you and he is worthy of your pursuit and he is worth laying your life down for him. You will never regret that decision and I bless you all in Jesus name. And Justin, I want to thank you for this wonderful opportunity to be on this podcast. It's been an honor, it's been a privilege. God bless you all in Jesus name.