When Therapy Wasn’t Enough — A Therapist and Exorcist Unite

Can Therapy Alone Heal Dissociative Identity Disorder When Demons Are Involved?

In this powerful episode of The Blind Exorcist, I sit down with Christian therapist Patrick Meese to share how we've been working side by side for nine months on one of the most complex cases we've ever encountered—Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) entangled with deep demonic oppression.

When Patrick faced violent outbursts, blacked-out eyes, and spiritual manifestations in his therapy sessions, he realized traditional therapy had reached its limit. That’s when the client brought me in as an exorcist to confront the spiritual root of her torment. What followed was a groundbreaking partnership—therapist and exorcist combining efforts to bring full healing to a soul fractured by trauma and invaded by darkness.

For the first time, you’ll hear both sides of this collaboration—clinical and spiritual—as we reveal how deliverance and therapy can work together to bring freedom from both psychological trauma and demonic bondage.

📌 In this episode, you’ll learn:
✅ Why 90% of DID cases are misdiagnosed as schizophrenia
✅ How demons hide within dissociative parts and sabotage healing
✅ The difference between human alters and demonic entities
✅ Why therapy alone can’t break generational curses or spiritual strongholds
✅ How integration therapy and exorcism work hand-in-hand
✅ What Christian therapists must understand about spiritual warfare and authority

This client has gone from 23–30 fragmented personalities to real moments of peace, healing, and spiritual restoration through the combined efforts of therapy and deliverance in Jesus Christ.

🔥 A must-listen for Christian therapists, pastors, and anyone facing persistent trauma, having suicidal thoughts, or unexplained emotional torment. If therapy or pastoral care has hit a wall, this episode may reveal the missing spiritual component that unlocks true healing.

Contact Patrick Meese:

Patrick Meese

280 South Oak Street, 

Manheim, Pa 17545

Email: patrick@jabbokccc.com

Website: https://jabbokccc.com/ 

Transcript

Introduction: Why Therapists and Exorcists Must Work Together

Justin 0:37

Welcome to the Blind Exercist. I am Justin D, your host. This is episode 32. Thank you so much, my friend, for coming back and listening. I appreciate it. I know so many people listen to this commuting while they're working out, they're exercising, or just sitting down with a coffee with their AirPods in and just diving in. People really find a lot of inspiration from the podcast and it's a sincere pleasure to bring this to you each month and if you're new to the podcast, welcome. Thank you so much for coming and joining us and I hope you find this episode beneficial. Joining us and I hope you find this episode beneficial.

Justin 1:22

Today I sit down with Patrick Meese, who is a therapist, highly trained, highly skilled in DID, which is Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you do not know what Dissociative Identity Disorder is, I cover this in several episodes on my podcast. You can scroll down through the titles and look for DID or MPD. Multiple personality disorder is what it used to be called. Now it's called DID, and listen to those because those are deep dives into what it is and all that. So I'm not going to cover that right now, but I do touch on it lightly in the episode here coming up. I have had an amazing opportunity for the past nine months to be working hand in hand with Patrick me as an exorcist, him as the therapist with a client who has DID. This has been an amazing experience and I'm so excited to bring this to you guys so you can actually see how does this work.

Justin 2:30

Now, one of my passions for starting this podcast is not only to raise awareness that Christians can have demons, but secondly, that it's very important for therapists and exorcists to work together as a team to help a client have a more holistic approach to emotional healing, because oftentimes people just go to therapy and if they have a spiritual problem and if they have a spiritual problem, demons therapy is not going to help that. Likewise, if you come to an exorcist and you think you only have demons, but yet you have emotional trauma to work through, exorcism can get rid of the demons, but it's not going to help you work through your trauma. Therapy is essential. So in my personal opinion, it takes both therapy and exorcism for a client to be emotionally restored. This episode is definitely for anybody who is suffering in any way. You will find inspiration and encouragement in this episode, but I think, outside of that, more importantly to me is get this episode to any therapist you know.

Justin 3:54

If you know a therapist, a psychologist, a psychiatrist or even a social worker, I urge you Actually let me be a little bit stronger I plead with you to share this out to them so that they can begin to understand that maybe the reason their client isn't getting past a certain point, maybe they have hit a wall and they don't know why. They've tried all the therapy models and nothing seems to be helping the client past a certain point. Maybe they have demons and you are trying to address a psychological problem. Yes, they have a psychological problem, but no, it's not all psychological. There's a spiritual component to it where an exorcist can assist you and you guys could work together. So again, I encourage you to share this out to any therapists that you know. Even pastors, get this to your pastor, because oftentimes in pastoral counseling pastors can only go so far. So then they're going to refer people to therapy and when pastoral counseling doesn't work all the way, and when therapy doesn't work all the way, they don't have any answers. They're just like, well, we've done all we can, good luck. So there's a missing ingredient the spiritual component, exorcism.

Justin 5:23

Okay, so this is going to be a great, great episode, super excited. You guys are going to get all kinds of information. I would like to encourage you to financially support the ministry here. If you have found inspiration and you have received encouragement or even education from the podcast, I'd invite you right now to tap on support the show in the show notes. Any amount helps, no matter what it is. It helps me continue to create these amazing interviews that you've been learning from and enjoying. So thank you so much for considering that. I appreciate it.

Justin 6:08

Last thing I'll mention Patrick's contact information is in the show notes, so if you're a therapist and have questions, or you're somebody that needs help and has questions for Patrick, feel free to reach out to him. I'm also available. So, as a therapist, if you wonder how does this work between exercists and therapists, feel free to reach out to me as well. You can go to my website, justindcom, click on contact and then send me a message. Now we cover how this works throughout this episode, so I encourage you to listen, enjoy it. You're going to get a lot of information and everybody out there that is hurting and that keeps coming back for hope and encouragement, back for hope and encouragement. There is a lot here for you too. This is just not for therapists. Okay, here we go, get ready, buckle up.

Patrick 7:17

Let's dive in, Patrick. Welcome to the Blind Exorcist, Justin, it is so good to be with you today. I'm really looking forward to our talk and thank you for having me.

Meet Patrick Meese: The DID Specialist Who Encountered Demons

Justin 7:24

It's a pleasure, and I'm excited, very excited, to dive into this. As many of you know, who have been listening for a very long time since episode one, I've always said it takes both therapy and exorcism for somebody to become whole, to become well emotionally and restored by the hand of Christ, and so a passion of mine has been in this ministry I've said it almost in most episodes is that they're not really professions. Like Patrick has a profession, this is a ministry, but these two professions therapy and exorcism need to marry up so we can help clients together. It's been a sincere pleasure working with Patrick, with our client, for almost eight months now, and we're just going to go ahead and dive into this and discuss this and flush out some of the details. And before we do that, though, patrick, I'm going to come to you and can you tell the audience a little bit about your education, where you went to university, what you went for before you started your private practice.

Patrick 8:37

Sure, absolutely. Yeah, I'm a 57-year-old male, I've been married for 34 years, I have five kids, five grandkids, and I've always been interested in the field of therapy, psychology, spirituality and the mix, and so about midlife I went back to Evangelical Theological Seminary and got my Master's in Marriage and Family Psychotherapy, which has allowed me to really open myself up to learning multiple, many, many models of therapy and the integration thereof, and so it's really given me a great platform for me to open up a practice. We've done that. We've had, you know, three, four employees working very much in the Christian world, and also with others that aren't Christian, that choose to come, and I do a lot of work with churches, with church leadership, with executives and with some of the, I would say, the most at-risk people, groups that have multiple personality disorders, the borderline cluster B, which is, you know, the histrionic, sociopathic kind of stuff. So those are the kinds of people that I work with in addition to families, and so that's just a little bit about me.

When Trauma Creates Open Doors for Demonic Entry

Justin 9:51

Thank you, patrick. Yes, and the credentials are amazing and the disassociation work that you do, like you are really into deep stuff. The satanic ritual abuse, which we also deal with and you know, this is what really brought us together guys is a client that had, or has, disassociative identity disorder, who also has demons from that, who also has demons from that. So this is kind of what bridged Patrick and I together, and it's awesome that he is a Christian and I have spoken with a lot of Christian psychologists throughout the few years here of me doing this, because they are interested in this and learning how to bring these two things together because they see it in their clients. And this episode is for you, for therapists, also, for people who are suffering. This is going to give you some answers.

Patrick 11:08

Okay, patrick, I have a question. When someone doesn't deal with their trauma, how do you think that affects them emotionally and spiritually? It has energy that it constantly gives off. It's almost as if there's a part of you that is stuck in that time, that is holding a massive burden, and it's usually a younger part of you that is just crying out for help. And so when it's not dealt with, it can show up in many different ways. It can get into some very dysfunctional relationships and, other than that, it can come out in your health. It can come out in grief and depression over time, because once again, it's giving off energy that hasn't been processed or dealt with and it doesn't go away. The body keeps the score. There's a gentleman, bessel Vandekoff, who talks about that and others, where we experience the trauma somatically and it actually gets stored in our bodies. So oftentimes people will have medical conditions that can't be diagnosed or worked with and really that's a result of the lingering, unprocessed trauma trying to find a way to be processed in that person.

Justin 12:19

Excellent points. And this is so true when someone doesn't deal with trauma. I mean it's imprinted psychologically into the person plus physically, and so this is where people start to self-medicate. That I talk about a lot. And Patrick mentioned getting into toxic relationships, psychedelics, whatever it is to cope with that trauma. Because it's there, the energy is there, the trauma's there, it's not been healed. And that's also when we get into disassociation, which Patrick deals with a lot and I deal with a lot as an exorcist.

Justin 12:56

The other day I was working with a client and an eight-year-old part of her came up with a client and an eight-year-old part of her came up, a little child talking, holding that trauma, holding that pain that had never been dealt with. And trauma is like an open wound. So if you think of, you know, if you had an open wound on your body and you never tended to it or healed it, it would start to get infected, it would start to really get bad very quick. And that's how it is in the soul, our emotions, how we feel, our thoughts, how we think. When we experience trauma and it's not dealt with, demons enter that trauma.

Black Eyes and Manifestations: When Therapy Hits a Spiritual Wall

Justin 13:39

And so you know, I was working with that eight-year-old and that eight-year-old part had demons that were expelled and the Holy Spirit brought healing to that part of that child. So this is legitimately real and for those of you listening, I know bottom line you have unresolved trauma. You and I both know that. That's why you keep coming back and listening, because you know this is truth. And my encouragement to you has been what I've said all along get an exorcism, get in therapy and get well so you can walk in the destiny that Jesus Christ has for your life. Patrick, speaking about demons during therapy in some of your cases, have you ever seen where you've hit a wall, where therapy has not been effective and there has been demonic influence?

Patrick 14:55

Yes, I have.

Patrick 14:56

As a matter of fact, the shared client that we are working with is a prime example.

Patrick 15:01

This particular client had, I'd say, 23 to 30 different personalities and as we're working through them, trying to move them towards integration, meaning that they can release their burdens and become one with the core person and become one with the core person, I ran into quite a bit of difficulty with a number, especially around with anger, suicidality, desire to harm, hypercriticality against themselves and others, and you quickly realize that you're working against something that's not normal nor part of the core person or core self.

Patrick 15:39

And so when you identify that, especially if they're spiritual, oftentimes what I would do is claim the space that we're in, pray through it, pray against any spirits, anything that might be influencing, and just claim the space, the personhood, the privacy through God, and oftentimes, when that's happened, you'll see a major agitation, if not outright manifestation of that anger, with the person. In this particular case, her eyes went black and stood up, threatened me, looked right through me like I wasn't even there, smashed some doors and went out and went outside and was carrying on. So that would be an example of stumbling into it, addressing it and finding out that, yeah, there is something there. Does that make sense, justin?

Justin 16:29

It makes perfect sense and thank you for sharing that. So for any therapists listening, it's very key. Look at the eyes. If you see them dilate black, that's a demonic manifestation and as exorcists, we're always looking at the face, like looking at the eyes, looking for twitching, you know, around the lips, looking for closing the eyes and pointing the head down, like we're looking for visual, you know, manifestations of demons. And the jet black eyes are our key and this is one of the reasons that I started working with this client is because of the demonization. This needed dealt with and we're still working through this.

Justin 17:15

This is an involved case and there's many personalities like this is an involved case and there's many personalities and each of those personalities need the compassion and love of Christ, eventually accepting Christ so that we can expel the associated demons. And all of this goes back to listen. This is key a generational curse that's vexing this client. This client has a generational curse from birth that led her into all of this trauma, causing the disassociation and strengthening the possession. So we're systematically Patrick and I together are disassembling and disentangling all of this interconnectedness between this generational curse because ultimately, that's what we're headed to is breaking that and Patrick's working on getting the client to integrate right when these parts of her come into the core and unite and become healed. That's what's meant by integration. You know the eight-year-old child. The core does memory processing and remembers and works through that in therapy for healing.

Justin 18:32

So it's a very powerful technique and many clients that I work with and Patrick have found tremendous healing by using both therapists who are skilled man in disassociative identity disorder. If you're DID and you're just going to a normal therapist who doesn't specialize in disassociation, then it's kind of pointless in my personal opinion. They're dealing with you as though this is normal life, normal depression, normal anxiety. But it takes a specialized skill set to work with disassociation and Patrick has that and I am again. I mentioned this in the intro. I'm going to link to Patrick's website. He practices in Pennsylvania, so if there's anybody that's looking for someone that's qualified, I highly recommend Patrick.

Patrick 19:27

So oftentimes when someone has DID and it begins to emerge or present itself, they'll go to get diagnosed. Go to a therapist. A therapist who is not trained in that will often almost 90% misdiagnose what's going on in front of them as either schizophrenia or paranoia or something like that. So DID gets misdiagnosed all the time at the detriment of the client, and many times that therapeutic experience can cause more damage than it does good, actually increasing the level of dissociation or multiple personalities that that person experiences in a negative way. So it's really important that it's identified well and that the person is treated appropriately, like I said, otherwise it causes damage for them.

Justin 20:19

I think that is a phenomenal call-out, excellent call-out, so true. So if you're ever diagnosed with schizophrenia or these other criteria that Patrick's talking about, get tested for disassociative identity disorder to make sure that that's not what's going on. And I agree with what he's saying. The clients that I work with that are DID. They have been misdiagnosed and traumatized and it takes a lot of time, compassion and love working with them. You know, to work through that. So mission critical. If you have been diagnosed with severe mental illness like schizophrenia or the others Patrick was mentioning, consider getting tested for disassociative identity disorder Very complex because you've got personalities that have their own voices, have their own emotions, have their own mannerisms.

Justin 21:19

Some of them are angry so they act almost demonic-like. So even in the deliverance realm of Christian deliverance ministry, a lot of times people think these are just demons and screaming at them, traumatizing them, because they don't have the understanding or training in DID. So keep this in mind Even in the deliverance circles people don't have this kind of training. The majority of people do not, and under Dr Larson's ministry praise God I've had the opportunity to get trained in this so that when I'm working with a client I can identify what's demonic and what's a human part?

Patrick 22:17

That was a great point, that Justin destroy relationships, get the person to commit suicide, all these kinds of harmful things. They're usually one-dimensional, meaning they don't really have a personality, but they kind of have an agenda that they're pushing and working through. And there are quite a few other different things. For example, in therapy, if you're working with a part, they have a personality. That personality is distinct but over time working in therapy, that usually shifts. When you're working with a demon, that will not shift. They'll consistently push towards harm, self-harm, harm to others and destroying a relationship. So that's just a quick example and kind of underscores the reason why it is so important to understand the difference between parts and demons and also someone who has parts and schizophrenia or something else. So thank you.

Breaking Down Barriers: How Therapists and Exorcists Can Collaborate

Justin 23:10

Yeah, that's a very good call out, patrick. Mission critical, mission critical Because here's the thing like Patrick, you've worked with clients that come to you completely traumat, patrick, you've worked with clients that come to you completely traumatized. I've worked with clients that have came to me completely traumatized by all of this. So it takes a special person. Anybody can do this if you have training. And I think it's important to understand I call this out all the time be careful what deliverance ministry you work with. Anybody could throw up a YouTube channel. Anybody can have the right verbiage, the right words. They can say the right things. You can go to them and get damaged emotionally, especially if they're not seriously trained by somebody like Dr Larson Again, you're talking. Larson is in his 80s, he's done over 50,000 exorcisms in over 100 countries and he has been clinically trained on disassociation. So just some points to keep in mind. So, patrick, you know working with this client that we've been working with together. Why do you think it's important for therapists and exorcists to work together?

Patrick 24:44

What a great question. Before I answer that, though, I just want to state that this client has given us written permission to have this discussion without identifying who they are or where they're from. So just to make that really clear what happens here. Therapy can only go so far if there's some kind of demonic representation there. That piece in and of itself is spiritually based, not psychologically based, but tends to reside in the soul, and so the demons don't have full possession of a person, but they antagonize, oppress and can attach themselves to very specific parts. The way they attach, the way they hide they don't want to be found. It can be difficult to find one. They will often hide within a part or hybrid with a part, in such a way that it's hard to tell that they're there.

Patrick 25:39

And so, working psychologically, you know, we can heal the person. We work with the person to find their healing, to find the way that they in particularly, can begin to process their trauma, reframe the reality and kind of move into the health. However, if there's demonic presence there, they're going to continue to hide, they're going to continue to come up, they're going to continue to deflect, deny and just keep that client absolutely stuck, and that's part of the oppressive process, finding different ways to cause that person to not be able to feel safe or stable, and what we find is that they can't even act or perform well in normal daily activities. So it limits their ability to have a career, to be in a relationship, to have a family and those kinds of things. So it's really important, when we come across this, that we use the expertise of someone like yourself, justin, in combination with what I'm doing, to kind of work holistically within the soul of that person.

Justin 26:47

Amen. I couldn't have said it any better. This is my heart and passion, man, bringing these two fields together, and it's been an amazing experience. The client has been a sincere pleasure. It's wonderful to be able to sit down and help people. Patrick, you and I have been working together for eight months. How has it been possible on your end for us to work together and I'm thinking of therapists listening right now, or even deliverance ministers let's just coach and help them for a minute how has it been possible on your end to work with me without us stepping on one another's toes? I have some thoughts I'll share on that too, but you first.

Patrick 27:30

Yeah, I appreciate that question.

Patrick 27:32

That's really a great question and for therapists out there that are listening to this as well, we're working at that levels, right on the edge of you know what we can do therapeutically with a license.

Patrick 27:45

So keeping in our lanes, I think, is really truly important.

Patrick 27:49

Justin has a, in my experience has a wonderful, deeply wonderful now working knowledge of people that suffer with DID and demons and other things, and that makes it very possible, when the client allows for that to happen and all the paperwork's done and we're allowed to talk back and forth, to have a really rich dialogue about what's going on and what I see and what Justin might see, and the give and take of that just really provides a deep context for the work that we come at from multiple angles with a person that's struggling to be able to find safety and to be able to move towards stability.

Patrick 28:33

So the conversation between the two of us can be based in both spiritual language but also the therapeutic language around what's going on and they're very complementary. I believe personally that a person has a. You know, they have their body, their mind and their spirit and if they're Christian, they have the Holy Spirit residing in a temple of that person and I think working with that design that God has made, that we have these multiple aspects of ourselves, helping them to become integrated and aligned with what God would want for them, is best done through the multiple different techniques that we would use in combination Justin focusing on the spiritual things, and us, me, focusing on the therapeutic end of working with that client.

Justin 29:25

All excellent advice and I agree with everything Patrick's saying. Now here's what I can tell deliverance ministers who are trained in DID I've been trained in disassociation using a different model than what Patrick has been trained in DID. You know, I've been trained in disassociation using a different model than what Patrick has been trained in. They both are amazing, they both help. But what I did was I set aside my training in DID and Patrick is the therapist. I'm following his lead, his model, right. So I'm not trying to counter what he's saying or say what about this or what about that? No, I really respect Patrick as a therapist. So I'm coming to the table simply as an exorcist, even though I've been trained in DID. In conversation, obviously, we talk DID because of me being trained in it. I understand that universe, that paradigm. So you know, of course we share thoughts along these things, along these lines. So I think it's important for exorcists or deliverance ministers to stay in your zone. I stay in my zone as an exorcist. In fact, there are times when the client will reach out to me with emotional questions and I will avert the client to Patrick, right, because Patrick's the therapist. He's dealing with the emotions, the disassociation as an exorcist, I deal with the disassociation, for example, working with an altar or a part of the client that is demonized, that has demons, and then work on expelling the demons from that part in the client. But I am not working on integration or these types of advanced concepts, because I am not a therapist, I am an exorcist and I have to have enough understanding within DID to be able to assist somebody to expel the demon, and so that's what my training is involved in. But it's been a wonderful experience. So the other thing I would say to therapists and exorcists is that Patrick and I meet often. We share notes. Sometimes that's just through email. Here's what we've worked on, here's what I see, here's how I think we should you know. Here's how I think we should move in the future. What do you think? And so you know the scripture of iron sharpens iron.

Justin 32:05

So there's a lot of communication back and forth and Patrick is leading and I am following. I think that's important. You can't have two people leading. So as an exorcist, I allow Patrick and I prefer it actually because he's the therapist right. So he's leading the therapy sessions and then I'm coming in when necessary to expel and remove demons from parts that come up. So I think it's important. These are just some guidelines that I've seen, at least from my side. That's worked very well and it's important. Communication is key and staying in our zones this is the way that I found personally to stay in my zone. Set aside my DID training strictly be an exorcist, but it's wonderful to communicate with Patrick. You know the therapist with regards to DID Patrick. Any final thoughts on that one before we move on?

Patrick 33:08

Yeah, that's great. I appreciate your comments. This is very much of a team effort that is brought about by the client. The client is asking for this and wants to work in this way and it's been a pleasure, an absolute pleasure, working with Justin, because he does understand what we're doing and why we're doing it and I have a tremendous amount of respect for his knowledge in the world of demonology, because he's talking about things I don't understand. But I'm learning and, as a therapist, to open my eyes, a Christian therapist, to open my eyes to how some of that works, has been wonderful. The give and take, the back and forth, sharing of thoughts and approaches has been wonderful. We're making great progress with this particular client.

Patrick 33:56

One of the most difficult parts of this client recently shifted to become a Christian and I was able to share. She says we don't know who we are and I was talking with Justin hasn't even heard this yet, but we were talking, I was talking with the client and it just came over me the armor of God, you know, let's just go to that. And this client read it and bawled, absolutely found her new identity in that and will be able to work with that within her own system of parts in a very, very positive way, where in the past it's been very, very difficult to work with this protective part. So reframing who they are and giving them a new job has been just a wonderful, beautiful experience. And doing it in this way, where it's combining the whole person, their spirit, their mind, their body, their past, their experiences, is very life-giving to this client, who has expressed that overtly to us. So those are my thoughts, justin.

Justin 35:01

Yeah, excellent. And it requires a lot of patience when working with somebody with DID because you're not just working with the core person, you're working with other people that have legitimate likes, dislikes. Some may want to be a Christian, some may not want to be a Christian, some may be atheists, some may be agnostic. So you just have to work with each part like they're real people, because they are. They are there with purpose. You know the clients have gone through trauma and those disassociative parts have came there to protect, assist and help.

The Missing Piece: Why Christian Therapists Must Address Demonic Oppression

Justin 35:45

And I wanted to swing back Patrick to you, mentioning about learning a little bit more about demonology and exorcism. And I just admire Patrick because he's interested. I think this is important for therapists. He actually signed up for the International School of Exorcism and the Advanced Academy of Deliverance through Dr Larson's ministry and as time permits which none of us have a lot of time, but as time permits Patrick is working through that to gain a better understanding.

Justin 36:20

Whether he decides to become a full exorcist, you know that's between him and God, but at least he's going to have the understanding so that if we do work with other clients in the future. Now he's understanding my paradigm, my universe, a little bit better and it just strengthens the team effort. So I found that very encouraging by Patrick signing up for them courses, and I would encourage therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists, that if you're going to work with somebody that is an exorcist, see if they have any training that you can, you know, take to become more aware of their universe and help strengthen the team. Okay, patrick, I got a question for you. Walking through this case, did it shift your perspective on spiritual warfare or did it just confirm what you already knew?

Patrick 37:19

That's a great question, and I was kind of thinking this as we were wrapping up the last comments is that, as a therapist, if we're a Christian and we recognize that the world that God has created, the Holy Spirit, jesus, the Trinity, is real, then we also have to recognize Jesus, the Trinity is real, then we also have to recognize that the rest of that story is real as well.

Patrick 37:43

And just as God has a very defined authority structure that he works within and when I say that, I think of Jesus converting the water to wine before it was his time, but because he was a human son of Mary and Mary requested it, he honored that and so there's distinct authority structures, both on the godly side of things and on the demonic side of things. And what I have learned is how the demonic side of things is structured, ordered, and how authority passes down through that. And I've seen that. I've learned that some through Justin and through studying, and it's fascinating and it you know. So that I would say, is the big thing that I've come to understand more and in greater depth, and to know how that works is critically important to both the work that Justin does and the work that I do, and so that would be my comment on that, Justin.

Possession vs. Oppression: Understanding the Difference in Practice

Justin 38:44

Again a great call out here, Great thoughts that you're sharing, patrick, and this goes back to guys, the point I've always made where American Christianity westernized Christianity, across Europe, across Canada, they don't believe Christians can have demons. And so what Patrick's pointing out here is that he's looking at the entire quote-unquote universe of God, the Trinity, god the Father, god the Son, God the Holy Spirit, understanding the spiritual aspects of demons that are in the Bible, and saying wait a minute, wait a minute. If this is going on in Christ's times— then this has to be going on in today's times. And he has seen it. He has seen the eyes dilate, he has seen the rage and anger come up. And so I think it's important, as a therapist, psychologist, psychiatrist, counselor, whatever your profession is, if you're that Christian that believes that absolutely Christians cannot have demons very limited in how you're going to be able to help a Christian I'm assuming you're a Christian therapist right with a Christian client, very limited on how you're going to be able to help them if you're not addressing the spiritual aspect. It's twofold, I've always said it. You got to address the emotional aspect Awesome, but you also have to address the spiritual aspect, the demonization, in order for your client to be well.

Justin 40:27

So I'm challenging you, the therapist listening, if you fall into that camp that Christians cannot have demons, I challenge you to rethink that. Okay, you hear Patrick here sharing from his heart what he's saying as a therapist that there are demons. He's encountered them. I have other psychiatrists that I've spoken with as well who have encountered them. We have therapists and Dr Larson's network, dwjd, do what Jesus did they encounter demons, no questions. So you, my friend listening, who's a therapist, I challenge you to reconsider. I challenge you to reconsider because your client may be demonized and need freedom, and I'll leave it at that can I ask a question to you, could you?

Patrick 41:20

I think that what goes along with that is the idea of being demon oppressed versus demon possessed. They're two very different things. What are your thoughts on that, justin? Could you maybe espouse that here?

Justin 41:36

Absolutely so. Catholicism has the concept of demon possession. I use that wording a lot on my podcast, the Protestant community. They don't like that wording because they feel that that speaks of ownership, the word possession, and so they've came up with the words of demonic oppression or demonized. And there is some legitimacy to the word demonized because if you look back at the original Greek in the Bible, where you may read where it says the person was demon-possessed. But if you look at the original Greek, it's going to be more demonized, which means you know a part of the person's soul, their emotions, how they feel, their thoughts, how they think have a demon. So that would need expelled. But at the end of the day, for me personally, whether it's demon possession, demonization, demon oppression, those are just words For me as an exorcist. At the end of the day, a person has a demon, however you want to call that, to be comfortable with it. I encourage you. But yeah, that's basically just with those types of wordings, patrick.

Patrick 42:56

My personal theology says that we have, if we're a Christian and the Holy Spirit has indwelled us, that is a part of us that is roped off. The Holy Spirit can't be demonized, right, but the soul, the part of the person that lives here in time and is moving through time, is not fully sanctified yet and who moves, has to work their way through this world, absolutely can be, and so that's what I consider the difference between possession, which would be taking control of the whole person, or oppression, which is the idea that their soul, mind and body may be suffering in this day and age, yet they're not fully taken over by a demon.

Justin 43:44

Yes, all valid points, All valid points. Hopefully you guys are starting to get challenged by some of this, to reconsider the things that you've been taught. And I say it often on here and I agree with you, patrick like the Spirit is sacred, the Holy Spirit comes inside of your spirit. Many Protestant communities call that being born again, but it's sealed. Demons can't get into your spirit. They can get into your soul, right your emotions, how you feel, your thoughts, how you think, and they can get into your body.

Stay Curious and Open: Patrick's Advice for Therapists Considering Spiritual Warfare

Justin 44:18

The other day I was working with a client and she stops and she says, sir, I have to stop, I'm going to vomit and get sick. And I was like oh no. And I told the spirit that was manifested. I cut it off from causing sickness on her stomach and I told it to stop it in the name of Jesus Christ and the sickness went away instantly. I see this often with demons. I'm not suggesting that every sickness and disease is from Satan, but I have seen this in exorcism.

Justin 44:51

Recently another exorcist I was discussing this with a woman couldn't hear. Her ear was deaf, became deaf during session, Excruciating pain, completely deaf. She couldn't hear. He cut the demon off from that ear and told it to stop it through the authority of Christ and instantly her ear was healed and came back to being completely normal, and they continued during the session. So demons do come up during session and cause physical pain.

Justin 45:19

I hear it often. It's my neck, my neck, my back right. I'm like listen, they're not going to kill you, let's keep going and I'll cut them off and tell them to stop that. So my point simply is that we are three parts spirit, soul and body. Spirit, born again, belongs to Jesus Christ. Soul, body demons can enter and cause torment. Patrick, what would you say to a Christian therapist who's starting to think that there's a spiritual aspect to the client that they're working with? What are some steps that therapist could take? You know they're working with the client. They're like maybe this is demons. What's some advice you can give them? What's some steps that they could take?

Patrick 46:05

Wow, what a great question. It's a great great question, I would say. Take a stance of being curious and being open and trying to explore with the client. It's okay, I think, to form some assumptions, but I don't think it's okay to act on them. I think you have to test them to make sure that they have validity before you do anything. But being curious, being open and maybe begin to pray with the client and see what you get.

Patrick 46:34

Oftentimes, in my personal experience and, justin, I'd love to hear yours is that when I do binding and separating prayers meaning I bind up whatever might be present and separate it from the person through prayer that I'll get a deep. I often have gotten a deep reaction as that part reacts to that Us taking the space, taking the room, god having that. The other thing I would say is that none of this, in my opinion, happens through my own flesh or my own power. This is all the power of Jesus, the power of the Holy Spirit, the power of God working and the absolute power that's contained in the Word. I know the first time I did the binding and separating prayer with a client and I got a massive reaction. It just imprinted on me the absolute power of the Word of God, and so that's a tool that can be a diagnostic tool as well, and I think just realizing that this isn't among my authority, but I'm allowed to be present, I'm allowed to be the third person in the room, is just a really good stance, a good way to be with it.

Hope and Healing: Words of Encouragement for Professionals and Sufferers

Patrick 47:50

And I would say reach out to someone who has had a lot of experience in this and coordinate with them, share your experience, ask good questions, like Justin's doing, and, just you know, get good counsel, but make sure you get good counsel, because there are so many people, organizations, whatever out there that have bad advice, that maybe don't look at how fluid and dynamic some of this can be and just put it in a very small square box, and my experience is that it's not like that. There's many ways that people can get demons sex outside of marriage, some of the things they read, some of the things they do. It's very complex. So seek someone like Justin and I work together, seek someone who knows and work together in such a way that you're both careful of the client and how you provide care and compassion towards them, and yet working within the reality of what the situation is.

Justin 48:54

Excellent advice. Excellent advice yes, find somebody that knows what they're doing, and if you have questions, you can contact me through my website, justindcom, and I can provide you resources that are credible for you to study as a therapist. So, again, honestly, I'm not going to be able to just meet for hours and train you, but I can point you to resources that are very helpful to help you become educated on deliverance ministry, exorcism ministry and things along those lines. So we've covered a lot here today. Patrick, I thank you very much for coming on, and at the end of every episode, I always have my guests share some words of encouragement. So if there, for example, is a therapist listening, a pastor, a pastor or a Christian or somebody who feels like they may be demonized, what's one thing that you would like them to walk away?

Patrick 50:07

with from our interview. Well, great question, I think, an openness and a curiosity to the possibility that something more or different might be happening. I think, being open to exploring what's going on with this person, what are the things that I can definitely understand and put my fingers on and what are the things that just feel kind of nefarious and what might they be? How do I be curious about that and how do I hold both the spiritual part of that person in tension with the psychological part of that person, in such a way that it's holistic, that it's looking at all of it? And so, just being open and being curious, I would say to the person who might think they have something going on, to find a qualified, experienced person who can work with you, one-on-one, very specifically to you, and be able to work to discern what's going on and be able to then address it as well.