Medication Wasn’t Enough — A Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner Encounters the Demonic

What happens when a trained psychiatric nurse practitioner realizes therapy and medication can’t explain everything her clients are experiencing?

In this episode of The Blind Exorcist, I sit down with Lora, a psychiatric nurse practitioner with years of experience in mental health, to explore the powerful and often misunderstood connection between psychological conditions and demonic influence. Raised in a Christian home and extensively trained in evidence-based care with multiple advanced degrees, Lora began noticing cases that didn’t fully respond to therapy or medication—leading her to explore deliverance ministry.

But this didn’t stay theoretical.

As Lora dug deeper in understanding deliverance ministry, she uncovered something personal—her own family had deep generational ties to Freemasonry. Though she had never participated in it herself, those doors had been opened in previous generations. Recognizing the spiritual impact, she pursued deliverance personally with Dr. Bob Larson, marking a turning point not just professionally, but in her own life and freedom.

What she discovered reshaped how she understands healing, revealing that true freedom often requires addressing both the mind and the spiritual realm.

📌 What you’ll discover in this episode:
✅ Why some mental health symptoms don’t respond to therapy or medication—and what might actually be behind them
✅ The key differences between mental health conditions and demons —and how to begin recognizing each

✅ The dangerous misconception that all mental health conditions are demons—and why that thinking can harm people
✅ Why a holistic approach to healing matters—addressing not just deliverance, but what a person returns to, including environments like abusive relationships or poverty that can impact lasting freedom
Lora shares powerful stories from her work in mental health, where clinical treatment helped—but didn’t go far enough. She also speaks candidly about her own journey through deliverance and how confronting generational ties to Freemasonry brought a new level of clarity, healing, and spiritual authority.

This episode is a reminder that no matter how complex your situation may feel—whether it’s mental, emotional, or spiritual—there is real hope for lasting freedom. You’ll walk away with greater clarity, practical insight, and a deeper understanding of how true healing happens when every part of a person’s life is addressed.

Transcript

Welcome And What’s Ahead

Justin 0:00

Welcome, my friend. Thank you for tuning in again and pull up a chair. Let's sit down. We're about to get into this. And thank you so much for listening. This is the Blind Exorcist Podcast. I am Justin D. Your host. And we are up to episode 42. Can you believe, guys, that we're up to episode 42 already? I mean, granted, there's podcasts out there to put three episodes out a day. But not me, man. Once a month. And anyhow, I'm excited about today's episode. I sit down with Laura, a psychiatric nurse, and we talk about the intersection of mental health and demons from a fresh perspective. So this is new content, kind of the same vibe, but new nuggets to pick up, new information, inspiration, coaching, direction, all that good stuff. Before I share a little bit about the episode, let me tell you about something exciting.

How To Connect With Me And Stay Updated On New Episodes

Justin 1:08

Okay. The company I use to host my podcast is called Buzz Sprout. Now, I don't get any financial kickback by mentioning this. They're just an amazing podcast hosting company. I love them. But they came out with something new recently. If you look in the show notes, you'll see where it says send me a text message. And that used to be one way and it's anonymous. In other words, I couldn't reply. Now, Buzz Sprout is put in place where I can reply to you. How cool is that? And also, they have in place where you can send me a voice message. So when you tap that link that says send me a text message, it's going to open up a page with two options. You can tap on text message or voice message, and it's anonymous. So feel free to send me a message, a voice message, or a text message. Now I can reply. I encourage you to send me a message, even if it's a thumbs up, something you like in the episode, a question you have, or whatever you want to share. It's awesome. And if you want to write me a longer like email, go to justindee.com and click on contact. And there's a form there you can fill out. And a lot of times people send me, you know, five paragraphs of information for me to read through, which I love. So I'm available. Reach out to me any way you feel best to use. Okay. All right. So let me let me talk to you a little bit about Laura here. So highly trained. She specializes in psychiatric nursing. Okay. She has so much education. I'm not even going to list it. Years of education. Highly intelligent, very credible, and a Christian. Okay. She was raised in a Christian home. She had her first personal encounter with Christ at age 14 and surrendered her life. This is squeaky, clean Christianity right here. And she had Freemasonry in her family. So she came across information explaining that this could have very strong demonic influence in your life as a Christian. So she gets a hold of Dr. Larson and goes through a deliverance. Okay, this was a couple years ago, not too far back. And her eyes were opened as a practitioner to the realm of deliverance and demons. And now it's starting to make sense to her why some clients could get stabilized emotionally and physically, but there was always this spiritual area that could not stabilize. And that's because it was demons. And so she goes through her own exorcism, she ramps up, she studies deliverance, and now she's on a deliverance team helping people. And so yes, we talk about mental health conditions, we talk about demons, but because she's a psychiatric nurse, she brings a fresh perspective to this topic. It's outstanding. And you're gonna get a lot out of this. So if you know people who are struggling, text this to them right now and just tell them to check it out. For example, we talk about a framework that we build up. And each of us have a picture frame, so to speak, that we fill in with coping skills that aren't healthy. And in the midst of this picture frame that we live our life through are demons. So we talk about this a little bit. And Laura talks about how do you tell the difference between a mental health condition and a demon? How do you distinguish between those two things? Now there is so much more here than just that. But I understand that this is fresh because I know I've interviewed therapists, but this is kind of cool. This is a unique twist on it, and I'm very excited about it. You're gonna get a lot out of this. So I encourage you to you know listen to this through the end, be inspired, be encouraged, be challenged. This is very raw and real. That's what I am, and that's what the blind exorcist is. And I know that's why you keep coming back because this is the trenches, baby. This isn't churchy church, where we're all coming here smiling with our fake face on Sunday mornings, and God bless you. I got the victory. Yeah, right. Okay. You were just fighting in the car with your spouse five minutes ago. What do you mean you got the victory? Okay. All right. You get my point, though. Isn't it amazing to be able to come here as Christians and just be real? Just be authentic. Like, hey, dude, here's the struggle. Let's get into this. How do we get through this? Like, come on, man. Let's quit playing church and just be real, authentic, and and talk this stuff through. Like real human beings who struggle. And that's what me and Laura do in this episode. So you ready? I'm ready. I'm excited. So get ready, buckle up. We're gonna dive in here and get to know Laura, and you're going to get a lot of great information and some amazing insight, perspective, challenge, all that good stuff. Let's go. Laura, welcome to the blind exorcist.

Lora 7:11

Thank you for having me, Justin. I'm excited to be here.

Justin 7:15

I say it almost every episode. I'm just as excited. I always get so excited when my guests come on, and I'm especially excited for you coming on, Laura, because you bring both sides of the equation. You're talking about mental health, and you're also talking about demonization and Christians having demons as well. So, speaking of Christianity, before we dive in here,

Raised In Faith — A Life Shaped By Prayer And Early Encounters With God

Justin 7:45

let's talk about you, Laura, and your Christianity and your experience becoming a Christian. When did this happen for you personally in your life? When did you become a Christian?

Lora 7:57

Honestly, Dustin, I cannot remember a time in my life where I did not know Jesus. I was raised in a Christian family. And my father, I remember him sharing with me when we were young. I have some siblings, and him sharing with me that he prayed for us every day for our faith and for our protection. So I can't remember not knowing Christ, but I do remember a couple of very specific things. At 13, I gave him my life very intentionally. And I would say around 16, on the way to a church camp, I remember feeling a stirring within me and for the first time kind of recognizing the Holy Spirit within me. And that was a pretty amazing church camp to experience and really start to then lean and grow within a very intentional relationship with Christ. I'm very fortunate to have been raised in a Christian household and have these memories.

Justin 9:03

That's amazing. I mean, there's very few people that I personally work with that were raised in a Christian home. Some, definitely some of the clients that I work with have absolutely been raised in Christian homes. And I'm happy to hear that you were and that that worked out for you in an amazing way. That's wonderful. You had a praying father. I had a praying mother and father, and they're the reason that I'm serving Christ and potentially being an exorcist. So, okay, so you accept Christ, you're serving him. 16, you begin to sense the Holy Spirit, and you're really getting your head around that. You graduate high school

A Hospital Stay That Redirected Everything Toward Psychiatric Nursing

Justin 9:49

and you decide to start university. Did you start university, Laura, immediately with an interest in mental health? Or is that something that you walked into while attending university?

Lora 10:05

No, I actually initially pursued a degree that was not related to mental health, but was related to a strength that I had in regards to creativity and just wanting to design things and try that out for a bit. But I ended up in a hospital not long after graduating with requirement for surgery. And when I was there, it was a lengthy stay, about three weeks, and I started noticing some of these medical professionals that work in our healthcare system. And I just decided the career that I am pursuing right now is not as meaningful as I want it to be when I had fully recovered and had met the love interest of my life. It ended up that I was able to pursue a nursing degree and very intentionally then went the path of mental health and psychiatric nursing and have never looked back. It has been an extremely rewarding career.

Justin 11:11

That's interesting. It's interesting how God can work in our lives. You're in the hospital and you start noticing the medical staff and taking all of this in and get married and start nursing and come into psychiatric nursing. I think it's amazing how God bumps us along in life. And sometimes it's very clear. Other times it's not so clear, but he's always guiding us, right? Psalms 23, he's the good shepherd. So this is awesome. As many of you know, listening, I've mentioned before, and here my ex-wife is a licensed clinical counselor, and I was a social work major for two and a half years. So as everybody knows, I'm very passionate about mental health. I think it's an essential component to a healing journey, in addition to deliverance. So, Laura, having you come on and being able to speak to this is really exciting for me personally. And I'm sure everyone listening is excited for us to continue and get into this. So, a psychiatric nurse, there are many people listening that have never heard that. They've heard therapists, they've heard psychologists, they've heard psychiatrists. And the first time I ever heard of a psychiatric nurse, believe it or not, was when I went for my kidney transplant. I had to sit down with a psychiatric nurse and go through an evaluation basically to see if I could handle a transplant psychologically, if I had support systems in place to help me post-transplant and so forth. But up until that point, honestly, Laura, I never heard of a psychiatric nurse.

Inside Psychiatric Nursing — Roles, Authority, And Real Patient Care

Justin 12:59

So what is a psychiatric nurse? And can you tell us a little bit what do they do? What have you done throughout your career as a psychiatric nurse?

Lora 13:10

Sure. There are different levels of nursing in general. So psychiatric nursing is a specialty within general nursing. And I would say maybe a good analogy is for advanced practice nursing and psychiatry. It's called a psychiatric nurse practitioner. And these are usually either masters or doctorally prepared clinicians that function very much like a psychiatrist in what they do. They more often than not are collaborating with psychiatrists and many other mental health professionals as well. And so they are involved in the assessment as well as the diagnosis and treatment planning with the individual to try to manage those mental and behavioral health conditions and stabilize them to a point where the clients are feeling functional and the level of dysfunction decreases, their symptoms decrease and reduce to a point where they are feeling or as close to well as possible, given what their former symptomatology was. Hopefully, a briefer overview for you.

Justin 14:23

Yeah, that's great. Thank you very much. Very interesting. So behavioral and physical is what you evaluate. And as a psychiatric nurse, are you also able to prescribe medication to clients, or does that have to refer up to like a psychiatrist?

Lora 14:46

As a psychiatric nurse practitioner, so again, that's more at the advanced level beyond the registered nurse certification or licensure, moving up to an advanced practice nurse, which another name for that is psychiatric nurse practitioner in our field. And yes, we are beyond the responsibilities, the interventions that we engage in include psychotherapy, prescribing psychotropic medication, and again, working one-on-one with that client to develop a treatment plan that will meet their unique needs.

Justin 15:22

That's wonderful. Being married to a licensed clinical counselor, I was married for 15 years. We had so much discussion around clients, around progress, goals, therapeuticals, all that kind of stuff. I just love psychology because I love to help people. And I know it plays such an important part to a person's mental health and mental well-being. And I've mentioned this before on another episode where it's amazing to me that people can go to their primary care physician three times a year, some people more than that. But when I ask, have you ever been to therapy or anything? Oh no. So they take care of themselves physically, but they don't take care of themselves psychologically or emotionally. They just live with trauma wounds that bleed. They live in pain coping skills that are not helpful. And they've never really gone for therapy or consider medication. A lot of people are very resistive to medication because they think that it means that they're crazy. A lot of people are opposed to therapy because they believe that it shows that they're weak, that they should be able to handle life themselves, or it has a negative stereotype that if you go for therapy, you're crazy. And these types of stereotypes, culturally, they're not amongst every age bracket, but there are certain ages and certain generations that hold this type of stereotype. And it's very sad to

Do Mental Health Treatments Actually Work — What Real Outcomes Look Like

Justin 17:04

me. So when it comes to clients, Laura, how much success have you seen working with clients where they got to that point of being healthy enough where they can cope? What would you say? Obviously, I'm not looking for exact numbers, but I'm curious because I want to compare what you tell me to what I've experienced with deliverance and exorcism in clients. Was there a high percentage, moderate percentage, very low percentage in your personal practice where people actually got better?

Lora 17:37

I don't think there's a blanket answer for what you're asking in terms of we have to honor the different categories of disorders and their kind of unique prevalence rates and work with that. But considering all of that, I would not have practiced for as long as I did if I did not see tremendous improvement with the clients. And it's a special kind of joy to be sitting one-on-one with a client and to watch them experience new insights and share with you the different ways that their life is improving and that quality of life. So the interventions that we do have available to us today for mental health conditions do work for many, if not the majority of clients. Again, it is relative, so I hesitate to make any type of blanket statement. And this is probably a good time to mention one of our frameworks that we lean into is something called the socioecological framework. And that really is just describing that at any given point in time, we're all experiencing multiple influences in our lives, whether it's from peers or biological, organic mechanisms, stress from work. There are a variety of different influences at any given point in time. So considering all of that, I am still satisfied, very satisfied with what we can do with the mental health interventions available to us today. Yet there are a long way to go still, because severe mental illness is a tough nut to crack sometimes. And there still are symptoms and features that we struggle with addressing, one of them being paranoia or delusions, especially if they're not in the context of a mood disorder. But understanding all of that, we have a lot available to us, a lot of evidence-based interventions that do work for many people. And finding the right fit in the beginning is always helpful. But if that doesn't work, try again. There are other interventions available. We have a wide assortment.

Justin 19:50

Outstanding. That response was very outstanding. And I say that because what an amazing perspective. You wouldn't have practiced as long as you have in mental health if you had not seen improvement or any type of job satisfaction and ditto to that, even with my ex-wife, she's still practicing today. And it's been, I bet you, 25 plus years as a therapist. And there is a very high burnout rate in therapists and counselors and psychiatrists and all that, because it takes a lot of time, emotional energy. So I think it's outstanding that your point that hey, if this wasn't a good thing and I didn't see any results, then I wouldn't have done it as long as I did do it. So that's awesome. And an excellent point, too, about the different categories of mental health conditions to just broadly say, yes, it fixes everything. It doesn't, but it does a lot, and it's a good thing to invest in for yourself personally. And another great point, Laura, was when you stated that if you've tried it and it did not work, then try another approach. Try another therapist, try another approach to help with the mental health condition. Try and try again because this does work. Laura, you mentioned that there's data to back this, and there is plenty of data to show that people recover, people become better, and so forth. So this is a great transition into Laura. Part of your training was the spiritual aspect of a person's well being. I want to transition into this because we're going to start getting into deliverance and kind of flush this out a little bit.

Why Spirituality Is Often Overlooked In Mental Health Care

Justin 21:50

But tell us a little bit about the spiritual aspect that you've been trained in that identifies that, yes, spiritual. Is part of the healing process.

Lora 22:04

Justin, I while we were trained in specific competencies, and one of them being to acknowledge and integrate spirituality into the course of any treatment plan for individuals where it's relevant for them. I wish I had received more training on it. It was in our scope and standards. It was mentioned maybe in a class or two, but the I guess the immense capability and power that it holds was never fully illuminated in our training, to the extent that oftentimes some of some people are so sick that it's it's all you can do to focus on just stabilizing the immediate symptom that will just keep them from things like suicide. And in your limited time in the healthcare system, you don't always have a lot of time to go into everything a comprehensive evaluation or discussion might entail for that individual. So I think it is recognized as an essential part, but I can't say that in practice, at least in my experience, practice within the university, that it was stressed as much as I would stress it now, knowing what I know and having experienced all of it. I think every practitioner kind of uses their own eclectic approach with the interventions that they've been trained on. And if spirituality is important to them, or if they recognize the benefit of it for others, they will engage it. But again, you're up against multiple competing factors for your time. And you're also up against getting everything situated and transcribed and written down for insurance purposes. So there are a lot of barriers, quite honestly, to being able to meaningfully engage spirituality in our healthcare system as it stands.

Justin 24:19

I think meaningfully engage spirituality is a key point. And I think that this is where exorcists and exorcism can really help and assist. And this is one thing that I'm very passionate about. Even in episode one, I mentioned at the end of my testimony that I think mental health and exorcism need to work together as a team. And so I do work with therapists. I interviewed a therapist on here, Patrick Meese, and he is a psychologist and a therapist. He deals with disassociation and a bunch of very severe trauma like satanic ritual abuse victims and so forth. So I work closely with Patrick and a couple other therapists, and it's a wonderful experience because, to your point, they cannot be so thorough and get everything covered in an hour session, or an insurance only pays for so much. So when it comes to the supernatural, when it comes to demons manifesting during session, Patrick and other therapists will contact me and have the client sign a release that, hey, him and I can work, we can exchange information because of HIPAA rules and you know this and that. What an amazing experience. This has been such a passion of mine from day one. It's working together. I just think it's amazing that you can be honest enough with that and even see that in your practice that, hey, they mentioned spirituality, it's a part, but when it comes to getting someone stabilized that's suicidal, we have to deal with the immediate. And it's not like we can sit down with every client and go as deep as we need to. So that's where deliverance

Freemasonry, Hidden Influence, And Discovering The Need For Deliverance

Justin 26:14

ministry can help. And Laura, this is an introduction to deliverance for you. You had Freemasonry in your background, and I know that you decided to pursue that because you came across deliverance and you began to research it, study, and understand it. You're very analytical. I love the analysis. And guys, I just want to mention that because we're not talking about someone here that's a wing nut, okay? Somebody here that just goes off on tangents and buys anything that comes down the pipeline. No, this is a woman that uses analysis, critical thinking, logic, and she's trained through tons of university. So she's sitting here explaining to us her mental health practice through the years, and now we're gonna transition the demons. Got that? It's crazy to me that in the West, Western Christianity, America, Canada, I always mention this, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, just all these countries. I'm not picking on the countries, I'm touching on countries that have the westernized version of Christianity that simply states Christians cannot have demons. And so now here we have yet again a very credible person addressing deliverance and demons. So let's transition into this, Laura, and let's start with your background, your family background in Freemasonry, and what brought you to the point of coming to the acceptance and realization of deliverance and you yourself needing deliverance because of the Freemasonry. Can you flush that out a little bit for us?

Lora 28:15

Sure. I've always been interested in spiritual warfare. I like I remember Frank Peretti's book, This Present Darkness, and reading that when I was in high school. So there's been fascination's not the right word, but just a genuine interest and acknowledgement that there's more going on than we realize in our general day-to-day walk through life. And so I've always been sensitive to that. But I have to say it wasn't until maybe a couple of years ago that I started really diving in.

When Symptoms Don’t Make Sense — A Case That Pointed Beyond Mental Health

Lora 28:55

And I will tell you, I had a client, Justin, that she would, and I've had I've had several clients, not just a handful, but several, that have described experience as that were a little different, where you thought, I'm not quite sure that medications can address that, or even therapy, right? It just seemed like it was in another dimension, some of the symptomatology. All of that kind of began to inform an interest. And one time I had a client who described something very significant to me. She was able to articulate as she was driving home in very clear language, a voice and a sense that she needed to drive off the road. And it came on all of a sudden. And it didn't happen just once, it was multiple times. And that was also over and beyond any type of symptomatology that she had before that. And this is a woman, it wasn't a first break of any sort. She was in her late 30s, early 40s, and this type of thing had just started happening where she would feel a weight on her chest, just a real heaviness come on all of a sudden. And then she would sense a presence. And there were it's just this constellation of different symptoms. And I remember, this was about two years ago. I remember thinking and asking her about if she attended church anywhere, if she had a relationship with Jesus. And it was a very explicit conversation around her faith. Because no matter what I did in psychotherapy or with her medications, and we tried many things, she would stabilize in every other realm but this. And so it was something different. And because of that, and because of just learning more about it through relationships that I have, I decided to explore what really is deliverance. Because especially with that client and in people I care about in their lives, I was just noticing that they weren't free. They were being influenced in a very negative way that was permeating various dimensions of their life. And it was consistent and becoming a real problem in their ability to live a wholesome and fulfilling life. So I started looking a little more into it and I realized I was surprised. I didn't realize that Freemasonry held so much evil within it. I just, I didn't know that was something I'd never learned or heard about. And when I started asking my family about it, we have a significant Freemason history in my grandfather and my great-grandmother. And so I started looking into what do people do? What do people do with that? And I can't say that there was something specific going on in my life personally that was drawing me into it. It was more of a curiosity at the time. And then as I learned more and more about it, it's almost like my eyes started to open and I was able to see and really consider the fact that, huh, me, maybe this has some influence on me, and I'm not fully considering that. So I reached out to Vaugarson and met with him for a session, and he talked me through the deliverance prayers, and he talked me through some really important things, Justin, fully forgiving and fully repenting and being vulnerable enough to just take a step back and increase my own self-awareness around issues like pride and anything else. There were a couple of things that I remember just stood out to me as I was listening to him and talking with him. And so we went through all of those prayers and it was just eye-opening to hear about all of the familial influences that maybe I was carrying with me that iniquity that could be having some influence. And I wanted it gone. Once I learned of it, I was like, let's break all these things just in case. So that was my experience. And I I loved defining the word deliverance and everything it stood for with that spiritual freedom. And thank you, Jesus, that my eyes were open to it. I'm very grateful for having learned about just this new piece of my spirituality that I had never been talked about in the churches that I grew up in. Spiritual freedom was not a concept that I had been introduced to in my walk until about a couple years ago. And now I it's I can't unsee it. Now it's just an integral part, and I'm so glad I'll never go back. I just I see the value of it so immensely that I just am humbled and very grateful for the new knowledge.

Justin 34:10

Thank you, Laura, for sharing so honest with us. That is an amazing testimony right there. And just a couple things to mention for to you guys listening is you know, here we have a Christian that's Christian her entire life and very highly educated, working in her profession, and never understood about Freemasonry deliverance. This would not be the case if she was raised in Nigeria. Let's just start with that. This would not be the case if she was raised in, say, Singapore. And I mention these because I do deliverance uh on Zoom in these countries, because the supernatural to them is real, it's part of everyday life.

The Real Cost Of Freedom — Humility, Forgiveness, And Letting Go Of Pride

Justin 34:59

But in the West, we are so rational, we are so intellectual, we are educated. And I always poke fun at this because I went to university. Okay, I know what it's like. And in the West, whether you go to university or not, we're arrogant, we're prideful, we're rational. And I'm saying that for myself. I and key words she mentioned forgiveness, humbling, pride, I had to deal with that. Like for you to really be free, you have to humble yourself. And it's so painful. And I know, Laura, you probably experienced this too, because once your eyes are opened, once you understand spiritual freedom, that's a great coined phrase there, Laura, spiritual freedom. We're not taught that. We're taught about demons a little bit. They're like these distant, vague things maybe westernized preachers might touch on once a year. But once your eyes are open to this realm, and once you see it, and once you go through deliverance, you're never the same, and you can't unsee it. And so then you begin to see your friends and very close family in bondage. And it's it's tough because you know they're in bondage and you share deliverance with them. You know what, in my case, what I've been through, the freedom, and they don't want it. How sad. And the number one reason, in my personal opinion, that people do not want deliverance, there's many reasons. But I think for me personally, after doing this for a few years now, is pride. People do not want to humble themselves, they do not want to take ownership for their mistakes in life. And so it's easier for people to stay in a framework of rejection, for example. They build coping skills and coping mechanisms all around a framework of rejection that they've lived through their whole life. And you're telling that person you have to let that go and start over, whether it's 25 years old, 35, 45, 55, etc. And in addition to letting your framework go of survival, you have to take ownership of your mistakes. It's no longer my dad, this, my mom that, my brother, this, my best friend that, my boss that. It becomes what was my part in this, if any, and being humble enough to admit, you know what? Maybe my heart position wasn't right when I went into that business agreement with that person. Maybe it's it was driven from greed within me. Or maybe the motive for marrying that guy or marrying that woman wasn't pure. Maybe it was, I need money, I'm gonna marry that person because they can give me shelter and money, and in return, I'll give them sex. These are tough questions, and they're essential when it comes to deliverance. So rather than people coming and humbling themselves before Jesus, saying, Lord, forgive me for X, Y, and Z, I repent. And for forgiving people, I'm not gonna let go of this. I'll never forgive X, I'll never forgive Y for doing this to me. So they hold on to the resentment because they don't want to let it go. But what they fail to realize is the peace. Because when you live in a framework of dysfunction, and when you hold on to resentment and anger, you never have peace. It's all an illusion. If you are a Christian and you have your own framework of whatever that might be, hostility, you ever met someone that's just always hostile, always combative, always coming against authority, right? That's their framework that they've used for survival. It's not good. So each of us go through life and develop coping skills and build a frame like a picture frame, and we live through that picture. And believe you me, most of it's dysfunctional. And I'm speaking from personal experience. Listen to episode one, man, my testimony. I went through like 14 months of exorcism sessions and eight months of therapy to work through it. And that was at 48 years old. But I wanted freedom, man. I wanted the peace. I didn't want to live in dysfunction. I don't want to live in illusion. I don't want to live blind. Some of you are gonna get that in a minute. I don't want to live blind to what's really going on. I want freedom. And so I humbled myself, went to Larson, confessed everything, my part in everything, even my divorce, had to take ownership. What was my part in that? My wife left me, okay? No abuse, no alcoholism, nothing like that. But what was my part in that? I had to humble myself and go before God and be probed on that. Could you do that, friend? That resentment and hatred you have in your heart toward your ex or ex is? Could you identify your part in it? Could you forgive them? Even if it's not your fault, can you forgive them? Can you let that go? Can you humble yourself? All this kind of stuff matters. And I'm sorry for going off on this, but I just really think it's important for people who are listening to understand what does it take to be free? And this is a huge part of it. And I just wanted to spend a few minutes on it because Laura, you brought this up. You know, the concepts of humbling yourself, letting pride go, and coming and sharing your life with somebody to seek freedom. Outstanding, Laura. That this has been a great little touch on this for all of us, myself included. Okay, Laura. So you go for a deliverance, you work through prayers with Dr. Larson, he gives you lots of insight for your life. Gives you lots of insight for your life. Now you are currently on a deliverance team, and this is what's amazing to me, right? Here you have someone that worked as a psychiatric nurse for years. And by the way, Laura, I read Frank Predi's book when I was in high school too. And it made me passionate as well. And I just finished it last year. I picked it up on Audible and listened to it just for old time's sake. But here now you are, Laura, on a deliverance team and helping people through deliverance. You're not working necessarily as a mental health professional in this context, but you do bring that skill set to the table that you can tap into in the background, so to speak, but a deliverance. So you're working with clients now who have demons come up and manifest. And you mentioned the one client having something come on her all of a sudden, drive off the bridge. A very common symptom of demonization is something comes on you all of a sudden and presses you to do X, Y, and Z.

After Deliverance — Why Environment, Mental Health, And Support Still Matter

Justin 42:40

So, as a deliverance minister, I would say you are Delora at this point. You're helping people through deliverance. Can you tell us a little bit what has that been like for you working with clients on a deliverance team and helping them out?

Lora 42:58

Thank you, Justin. And I think you give me too much credit. I I really see myself as a support mechanism on these teams. And I just I'm in awe of the deliverance ministers themselves that are there truly fighting the good fight. It's it truly is spiritual warfare like never before. So I'm in awe of that, but I also just had an interest in wanting to support that process and in whatever way that God wanted to use me. And what's transpired is as I have sat on our particular team and witnessed and experienced what people are sharing related to demonic influence and how it's impacted their lives. And very importantly, looking at their backgrounds and reading about them and where they've come from and the fact that they're even sitting there with us. Is a miracle. The fact that they made it to us, I just find that I find that Holy Spirit led. They're here with us for a reason. And then as I'm sitting there watching the deliverance and praying, and I'll contribute in whatever ways I feel led to contribute at the invitation of the deliverance minister. But I also connect some dots. I see and hear what's going on for them spiritually, but I also am actively thinking through, I can't help it. I'm thinking through and just really processing the belief system they have going on right now in their mind. And I'm actively thinking about, well, after this limited time, the 60 to 90 minute session we have with them, what are they returning home to? What type of environment are they going back into that they've just received a reprieve from for the time being? And here we are intervening in this very specific way, but what next? But there's a part of me as a mental health professional that just you just want to love on them. You just want to prepare them for, okay, let's get you ready now. Now that you're free, how can we help you maintain that freedom by achieving even more insights? And you're familiar with this, Justin. Putting on the armor of God and really talking them through that in an intentional way is not something that we necessarily always have time for, right? At the end of a deliverance session. And it's not something they're always ready to receive at the end of a deliverance session. Oftentimes they're exhausted and they're just, they're happy to not be living with the demonic influence. So, all that said, it's been eye-opening, but it also makes me want more for them. There, there are areas I see that God could continue to move in their lives beyond the deliverance. And I think it goes back to what you were saying, Justin, about there are so many other complementary elements to well-being as a whole. And once they have the spiritual freedom, which is the most important, quite honestly, right? Once they have that, being able to maintain that is really dependent on a lot of these other things. And I mean that sincerely. If they are not stabilized with mental health, if they're returning back to poverty, let's say, if they're going back into an abusive situation, there are a number of things that, if not properly addressed, could potentially make their lives vulnerable. And so that's why kind of this balance between and desire to want to just arm them up, equip them completely with that toolkit once they're done, all of that armor of God and really talking with them sincerely about scripture and prayer and how to protect themselves, but then the importance of if they are struggling with a mental health condition, what it can mean in terms of their ability to maintain their freedom by stabilizing that and seeking help for that. Because the relationship between mental health and demonic influences is actually pretty significant. If you are not stable, let's say with depression or anxiety, and you have these desires to seek pleasure in other things because you're feeling so down, or if you're struggling with a substance use issue, all of those things can open up gateways, additional areas of sin that they could engage in because they're not feeling well and they're seeking something, they're seeking a source of wellness for that what could be and most oftentimes is an organic mental health condition. So there's value in managing all of it, right? And fully understanding that within the context of a deliverance session, we are there for a very specific purpose, right? To support them in achieving spiritual freedom. But my mental health mind also goes to, okay, and then what? How do we help them maintain that freedom?

Justin 48:36

All excellent points. And I share that passion as well. When I'm working with a client, I understand that's only one piece of the pie. And the pie could have, for example, eight slices that need addressed outside of deliverance. So, you know, a lot of the people that I work with come to me for deliverance from demons thinking it's a quick fix, but yet they've been an addict, say a cocaine addict for 20 years. And sure, God's going to bring freedom, but I'm also going to encourage them to go to a 12-step program at Narcotics Anonymous and get a sponsor and work the steps because deliverance is just part of the process. And also always I tell people go for therapy. Because most people I work with are very traumatized. That's how the demons enter and they need therapy. If I could go record every session I've ever had with my clients at the end of the first session, I'm telling, look, there's a lot more here in demons. And I start coaching them on mental health conditions. I've even had people, Laura, I've suggested get with a social worker and find resources that can help you gain employment or help with bills. Because social work is there to assist and help to get out of the abusive relationship you're in. I've worked with clients that come and pay and sit down and go through a session and they're with an abusive partner and they can't get out because the partner makes all the money and uses that as control. And so it's okay, we'll find a woman's shelter and go there. And a lot of times people don't want to make that change because it means inconvenience and a little bit of pain. And I always encourage them that, hey, it's temporary because God's in charge of your life. And so, you know, I just I I this has been my message for several years on the podcast. It takes both therapy, I'll throw in there in this episode, community services and exorcism. If it was an essential, I wouldn't go on about this all the time. And it's just wonderful, Laura, to have you come on here and share these thoughts as well because you've been in this mental health field for years. And now you're seeing the other side and

Not Every Mental Health Condition Is A Demon — A Dangerous Oversimplification

Justin 51:17

piecing it together. I want to transition into something along these lines about mental health and demons, Laura, and get your take on this. Now, there are some deliverance ministries, deliverance ministers that believe that all mental health uh conditions are demons. So if you have anxiety, it's a demon of anxiety, come out. If you have suicide, it's a demon of suicide, come out. And each of us can only operate from a standpoint of our own education. But I want to bring this out because it's a grave mistake to think that therapists just misdiagnose people and diagnose anxiety when really it's a demon, when therapists just put people on medications and all the person needs is an exorcism and they'll be fine. That's a grave mistake because it oversimplifies trauma. So a lot of times people will go to deliverance conferences. People don't know anything about your background. They don't know you were molested at six and demons entered you. They don't know you were raped when you were 15 years old and demons got into you. They don't know that you used tarot cards and crystals and seances and psychics for five years. They have no clue of any of this history or that your father abandoned you at two years old and left you and your mom in poverty as an example. They don't know that your mom had four and five, six guys living with her on drugs while through your child. They don't know any of this history. These are all just examples, okay? And then what? You're gonna go up to an altar and say a prayer and you leave full of emotions and that you're free and everything's okay? Wow. I wish it was that easy. So I just want to touch on this floor with you for just a minute, and we're gonna wrap up here in just a minute. But this idea that some deliverance ministries and deliverance ministers say that all mental health conditions or the majority of diagnosed mental health conditions are nothing but demons that need to be expelled. I'd like to come to you, Laura, for your thoughts on this so you can give some practical advice, practical wisdom about this situation. And also, if you can touch on for maybe deliverance ministers that are listening, they don't know how to tell the difference between a mental health condition and a demon. So if maybe you could touch on that a little bit and give a little insight, we're not therapists, guys. If you're a deliverance minister listening, we deal with the spiritual, the demons, but we're not therapists. So stay in our zone. Don't act like we're therapists. We're not. Send people to therapists. Okay, Laura. So again, just to talk about this whole concept. Number one, all mental health conditions or most mental health conditions are just demons that need kicked out. And then number two, how do we tell the difference between a mental health condition and a demon?

Lora 54:36

All right, I'll do my best. So when I think about what you described in terms of a black and white way of thinking about demons and their relationship with mental health symptoms? What comes up for me is would you do the same thing for any other type of health condition, like diabetes or heart disease? Would you ascribe all of that, any of those medical conditions, to a sole source of demonology? And I don't think many would. And I think part of it is really thinking through a better understanding of stigma and just familiarity with the very the various contexts related to mental health conditions and the various ways in which they present and that whole just a better understanding of the constellation of symptoms and the patterns that can emerge so that you're just more aware. And being more aware of genetic influences, biochemical influences, environmental influences, just having some idea of the risk factors and the drivers for mental health conditions brings them more to life and they start to nudge a little closer in one's mind to being similar in understanding to medical conditions. And when we can get there, then we can really look at whole health, right? And they don't become this kind of isolated, scary or just unfamiliar thing that we might see in the media when that's maybe the only type of association we have with it. But more and more, as the prevalence rates go up across our country with mental health conditions, I think more and more people are becoming more familiar with it. And we like to do what we know. So as a deliverance minister, being able to encapsulate, if you will, someone's symptoms within a solely demonic realm makes it easier in our minds to address and solve that problem. But we all know that life isn't necessarily that easy or that simple. And going back to something I said earlier, there are multiple influences on the way that we think and the way that we behave and the way that we feel at any given moment in time. So being able to understand and think through the varying degrees and the varying influences on any person at any given point in time will help you to understand and see the picture truly for what it is, which is gray. It's never going to be solely black and white. Now, all that said, there will be primary symptoms, and it could be primarily a spiritual issue or a demonic issue. And so if you alleviate that, you might have 80% reduction in symptoms, which is fantastic. And so we do have those cases every now and then. But I was just talking with a deliverance minister, and he's a 75 to 80% of the people I'm dealing with now have a either a mental health or substance use issue in conjunction with the spiritual disturbance. So I don't know. I I in my mind, I think it's more of a mindset shift. And when we can shift our mindsets to truly seek and try to see that big picture and just consider all of the possible influences and the impact they may be having. Yeah, it's a little bit muddier of a picture, but it at least exposes all of those angles that we can be addressing their well-being from.

How To Discern Demonic Influence From Mental Health Conditions

Lora 58:25

And when it comes to distinguishing between the two symptoms, Justin, whether it's a demonic in origin or mental health in origin, there are some basic ones that I've heard all of you talk about and that Dr. Larson talks about.

How Mental Health And Demonic Influence Can Feed Each Other

Lora 58:39

And I described them with the female case that I talked about earlier, where if you start to, if they're presenting with symptoms such as I am unable to read my Bible, or very spiritually specific symptoms where anything that involves Christ, right, is they are unable to engage with any longer. That's a given indicator that you might be considering something spiritual. But then similarly, if you're talking to someone whose symptoms presented in the classic onset age, so let's say a male is presenting around the age of 18, 19 with some psychotic symptoms and maybe some auditory hallucinations, and maybe we have some family history of schizophrenia or a bipolar with psychotic features. And what's really neat for a deliverance minister is that they will also understand how the spiritual domain, the demonic domain, can influence the exacerbation of those symptoms. And I think this is a really important point, Justin. I hope you don't mind me drawing it out, but I just I want to bring this to life through a case. If you have someone who is struggling, let's say with depression with psychotic features, okay, they're severely depressed, they've got some psychotic features. And more often than not, the first psychotic feature that's going to be exposed is something like paranoia and then maybe some auditory hallucinations. But let's say they're in a major depressive episode and they're feeling awful. They're just feeling awful. They feel down and sad. They don't feel like getting up and engaging in activities of daily living. Their thought process has slowed down. So there's some cognitive slowing. You can tell on their face that there's some flattened affect. They are isolating more. Just a classic presentation of someone who's majorly depressed. They're struggling to feel any type of pleasure at all. And so they may be seeking other sources of pleasure. Maybe they have disrupted relationships because of their depression. And so things like pornography or substance use become very real to them because those are immediate dopamine fixes that will possibly create a surge of dopamine for them. And for a moment, they can experience some pleasure. And so you see this relationship. So there we have open doors in the context of a mental health condition where demonic influence can be a real issue for that individual. But then vice versa, if you are experiencing demonic influence, and we all know that they try to influence our thoughts, right? That's the number one thing that they do. They try to get in there and influence our thoughts. And that belief system, that way of thinking, I'm not worthy, I'm a failure, that type of influence can lead to an experience of a mental health condition, right? So understanding that relationship and how sometimes they can feed one another, the spiritual domain and the mental health domain is so critical to recognize. And so, just to wrap that up with some natural indicators for a spiritual component would be some of those things that we've discussed. And here's a really big one. Beyond just being unable to engage in spiritual elements, it's also important to know that demons don't like to be exposed. They like to hide. They don't necessarily come up and just manifest for the fun of it, right? They don't want to be exposed. They want to remain in that individual and make sure that individual is not saved or is tortured, right? For a period of time. And that in conjunction with mental health conditions, often are not hidden. Often you will see those symptoms very transparently, not all the time, but they're often voluntary. They can be described with language by the individual. So we might, as those involved in deliverance, we might be observing maybe some of the spiritual elements and picking up on them as they describe what is happening to them and some of the symptoms that are bothering them. But very rarely will those with a mental health condition that truly is driven by a spiritual element be able to say, I'm being attacked by a demon, you know, or I'm being influenced by a demon. I wish it was that simple, but they're they're trickier than that. They're trickier than that. And so that's another just distinguishing factor is more of this transparent symptomatology versus the hidden influences that may be informing or influencing that behavior or way of thinking, really. And I I boil it down to that way of thinking is really important to me now when I think about assessing clients and as I watch it in deliverance, because that's the number one thing that they attack. They like to go in there and change that way of thinking because in psychiatry, this is a very big, a very big understanding in theory. It's called cognitive behavioral therapy. The way that we think, and Dr. Larson talks about this, the way that we think influences the way that we feel and behave. So I understand why they would go after our thoughts first.

Justin 1:04:46

Thank you so much, Laura. That was awesome. I really appreciated the case scenario you stepped through. And if you're a deliverance minister listening, look, we have AI at our fingertips now, ChatGPT, Claude. So you can go out there and just say, what are the top most common mental health conditions? And it'll list it out, and then ask it to describe the top three or four symptoms for each mental health condition. So you can have a high-level understanding

Intake, Patterns, And Seeing The Full Picture Before Deliverance

Justin 1:05:20

of mental health conditions. And with Dr. Larson's ministry and my ministry, we use intake questions. And this is why we want to look down a snapshot of somebody's life and look not only for demonic influence, but also mental health conditions that could be there as well. And so, as a an exorcist, when I sit down with a client, or Laura does as well on her team, we come to the table with the understanding that most people have demons from unresolved trauma. And or mental health conditions. And so it's a very complex thing on one hand, because if you go through trauma and you don't go for therapy for that trauma, then demons can attach to that trauma begin influencing thoughts. No one will love you, you're worthless, until they gain legal right to be there through behavior, which, like Laura was saying, could be pornography, could be drug abuse, could be sleeping around with all kinds of people. It just further deepens the demonization. So this is not a black and white thing. You have to think gray as a deliverance minister when you work with someone. And if you see mental health conditions there based on you studying and researching these common ones, and I encourage you to try to find a Christian therapist that you know and sit down and talk with them about these conditions as well. So you can gain understanding. And when you see those flags, just know that they have a mental health condition that may require treatment. And just because you get rid of demons doesn't mean it gets rid of the mental health condition. That happens, but in my experience, very rare. Most of the time, I tell clients I work with, look, we're going to get rid of these demons that's entered through trauma, generational curses, et cetera. And the anxiety that you have may reduce from a 10 down to a three, and that may be tolerable enough, or it may completely go away. But I want to set your expectations that this may not be a complete fix. This will be a reduction. And if it's a complete fix, great. So anxiety is just one mental health condition that I see a lot of. There's tons of them. And clients will get back with me and say, I feel better, but I still feel anxious. Go to therapy, consider medication. Wow, this is great stuff. This has been an amazing episode. Oh my goodness, I could do cartwheels or I'm so excited. I love talking about demons and I love talking about mental health because they literally entwine with one another. It's just, I don't know, it's my passion. So we've covered a lot. Thank you so much for listening, everybody. And I encourage you to text this episode right now to a family member, a friend, somebody you know that has a mental health condition so they can hear the other side about demons. And I encourage you to text it to a friend or a family member, throw it out on social media to somebody that understands I have demons. So that person then can understand wait a minute, there may be a mental health condition attached to the demons that I have. So this can work both ways. It's a great resource. Laura's very credible. It's been a pleasure having you on here, Laura. Thank you so much for your time. And at the end of every episode, I always ask my guest to leave a word of encouragement to you guys. I love this part. Makes me smile every time my guest gives these words of encouragement for all of us, myself included. But Laura, why should a person consider going through a deliverance, going through an exorcism?

There Is Hope — A Path To Lasting Freedom And Wholeness

Justin 1:09:29

Why should somebody consider doing that? What would be the benefit? Why, in your personal opinion, should someone go through a deliverance? If you could share some encouragement and just from your heart with the people listening. Thank you.

Lora 1:09:44

The first thing that comes to mind for me is both for those considering deliverance as well as for deliverance ministers. And I think it's it revolves around this idea that we talk about so many complex things. Life is complex and it often is overwhelming. Like to look at the big picture is so overwhelming sometimes, right? But if we could just think about what is within our control, focus on what is within our control. So as a deliverance minister, you have this beautiful skill set, right? And deliverance ministers within their control is this ability to go out there and fight demons to set people free. And lasering it on that in the context of what could be overwhelming is a real gift. And I see this happen in so many of them. I'm just in awe and I admire that so much. But similarly, for those that are considering deliverance, life can be overwhelming. There is a lot going on. There's a lot going on cognitively, there's a lot going on emotionally, a lot of responsibility and behavioral elements that can overwhelm us just in any given day. And when I think about the benefit of deliverance and why anyone might consider seeking it, it really is simple. Just like the truth always is, right, Justin? The truth is always simple and it's always quiet. No one else can make you grow. No one else can make you grow. No one else can set you free except for Jesus. No one. And it really is that simple. If you are looking for freedom in this world outside of all the chaos, humbling yourself, humility is a growth mindset, humbling yourself and recognizing that this beautiful miracle that can happen in your life by allowing yourself to be fully exposed, by fully repenting of all of your sin and becoming more self-aware of that sin and looking it straight in the eye and not being ashamed of it because we've been forgiven for that sin. Jesus has forgiven us for that, and our slate has been wiped clean. And we can celebrate in that. And the minute that we can truly engage humility in this type of way and look our sin in the eye and forgive fully as Jesus forgave us and seek that freedom, prepare ourselves for the freedom and ask of it. That's the day that you'll be truly free. And that's the benefit. That's the benefit of surrendering it all and allowing this dimension of our life, this our heart to be not just filled with the Holy Spirit, but for everything to be released around it and for us to truly live for Christ. Sometimes you used the word bondage, Justin, earlier during this interview. And you're absolutely right. I see, I see others in bondage, many others that I care about. And I wish I could make them grow and help them grow and support them in that. And conversations can lead a certain direction, but it really is up to them. It's up to them, just like it will be on Judgment Day, right? Like when we all leave this earth and we go to heaven, we have a one-on-one with Jesus. And being able to do that in such an honest and authentic way and practice that here on earth while we seek deliverance ourselves, it's a blessing. And so I would say don't hesitate. Start now and see what it can do for you. If nothing else, here's the deal it cannot hurt.