Episode 59: A Conversation with Dr. Peter Rosenbaum and Elizabeth Chambers About the F‑Words for Child Development

In this episode, ASCY’s Sue Lepore is joined by Dr. Peter Rosenbaum, internationally respected pediatrician, researcher, educator, and co‑founder of the CanChild Centre for Childhood‑Onset Disability Research at McMaster University. For over five decades, Dr. Rosenbaum has been a leading voice in childhood disability research, shaping innovative ways of understanding children’s development. His most influential contribution, the F‑words in Childhood Disability, has become a globally used strengths‑based framework, translated into more than 35 languages and downloaded over 100,000 times. In 2025, he was appointed an Officer of the Order of Canada for his lifetime of contributions.

Joining him is Elizabeth Chambers, a certified teacher, caregiver, and strong advocate for family‑centred, strengths‑based practice. Elizabeth brings both professional expertise and meaningful lived experience supporting aging parents and a medically complex child. Her insights add depth, compassion, and real‑world connection to this conversation.

Together, Dr. Rosenbaum and Elizabeth explore the six F‑words, function, family, fitness, fun, friends, and future, and how these concepts help us see and support “the whole child.” Through stories, examples, and reflection, they discuss how the F‑words shift our focus from deficits to strengths, from limitations to possibilities, and from “fixing” children to truly partnering with them and their families. They highlight the importance of inclusive environments, family partnerships, and supporting children in ways that honour their interests, relationships, and unique ways of being.

About Dr. Peter Rosenbaum
Dr. Rosenbaum joined McMaster’s Department of Paediatrics in 1973 and co‑founded CanChild in 1989. His career has focused on child functioning, family wellbeing, service delivery, the language used in childhood disability, and communicating complex ideas in accessible ways. His and CanChild’s work on the F‑words continues to influence research, practice, and family engagement around the world.

About Elizabeth Chambers
Elizabeth is a teacher, caregiver, and advocate based in the Niagara Region. As part of the “club sandwich” generation, she supports both her children and aging parents, including caring for her mother with Alzheimer’s and her medically complex son. Her work spans research, advocacy, consulting, and international collaboration. She serves as a Parent Partner and Co‑Principal Investigator on several projects, is part of the ENVISAGE leadership team, and is an associate member of CanChild. She also writes at https://www.lightkeeperlife.com/ 

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• CanChild F‑Words Hub
  https://canchild.ca/research-in-practice/f-words-in-childhood-disability/
• Original F‑Words Article (2011)
  https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1365-2214.2011.01338.x
• Perspectives Video & Related Resources
  https://canchild.ca/research-in-practice/approaches-to-disability/
• Free F‑Words Online Training Program
  https://canchild-fwords.ca/

Transcript

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hello from Hamilton, Ontario. Welcome to Ask Y's podcast. Can we talk conversations in the earlier years? We're so glad you're joining us for our 59th episode. Thank you for being part of this ongoing journey of learning, reflection, and connection. In today's episode, Aski Sue Lepor is joined by Dr. Peter Rosenbaum, internationally respected pediatrician, researcher, educator, and co-founder of the Can Child Center for Childhood Onset Disability Research at McMaster University. For more than five decades, Dr. Rosenbaum has been a leading voice in childhood disability research, contributing groundbreaking clinical tools and shaping new ways of understanding child development. His most influential work, the F words and childhood disability has become a global framework for strength-based holistic thinking about children and families, and is translated into over 35 languages and downloaded more than a hundred thousand times. In 2025, Dr. Rosenbaum was appointed an officer of the Order of Canada in recognition of his lifetime contributions. Joining him in this conversation is Elizabeth Chambers, a certified teacher, caregiver, and passionate advocate for family centered strength-based practice. Elizabeth brings both professional insight and profound lived experience as a parent supporting both aging parents and a medically complex child. Her voice adds depth, honesty, and humanity to today's discussion. Together, Dr. Rosenbaum and Elizabeth explore the six afterwards. Function, family fitness. Fun, friends and future and how these concepts help us truly understand the whole child through stories and reflection and practical examples. They highlight how the F words shift our lens from focusing on what a child can't do to recognizing their strengths, interests, relationships, and potential. They also discuss the vital role of family partnerships, the importance of inclusive environments, and how educators can meaningfully support children with diverse developmental needs throughout the conversation, they also share many helpful resources, all of which, along with our full biographies are available in the show notes. We hope you enjoy listening. Welcome everyone today, we'll be speaking with the esteemed Dr. Peter Rosenbaum, pediatrician and researcher Dr. Rosenbaum's accomplishments have been recognized nationally and and internationally. In June, 2025, Dr. Rosenbaum became an officer of the Order of Canada. In recognition of his lifetime of research, writing and teaching in the field of child development, Elizabeth Chambers joins us to a certified teacher, caregiver, and advocate for family-centered care. She lives in the Niagara region with her husband and three children. Elizabeth is part of the club sandwich generation supporting both children and aging parents, including caring for her mother, living with Alzheimer's and a medically complex son. Elizabeth brings both professional expertise and lived experience to her work and is deeply committed to building inclusive collaborative spaces in healthcare education and research. In 2011, Dr. Peter Rosenbaum, along with Dr. Jan Willem Gorder, published a groundbreaking paper titled the F Words and Childhood Disability. I swear this is how we should think. These six F words are a holistic strength-based framework designed to shift the focus from a child's inability to do something and rather focus on what the child can do and what are their strengths. So now let's dig deeper into this conversation with our esteemed guests. I'm so excited to have you both here. So, Dr. Rosenbaum, let's begin with you. Could you please share with our listeners how it was that you came to have this insight, this inspiration about the development of the six F efforts thank you. It's a pleasure to be, to be here and to be able to talk about something that's really close to my and our hearts. Yes. We, um, can, child has been around since the, since 1989 and had been evolving our thinking, uh, beyond, uh, interests in diseases and their treatment, uh, or their lack of treatment, and had the unusual opportunity in the very late nineties to be. Asked to think about the EVO emerging World Health Organization's Framework for Health. What was published in 2001 is the international, um, classification of, uh, dis uh, of, um, disability, uh, health and function functioning and health. Mm-hmm. And, uh, one of our colleagues was part of the Canadian beta testing of this emerging idea, which by the way, had the fingerprints and the voices of people with lived experience in its evolution. Yeah. And so Deb Stewart, our colleague, was bringing these ideas to us and we were having a, a privileged insider's, uh, view of how this emerging set of ideas was happening. And over the decade, the first decade of the 21st century, we occasionally would think about f words that might bring these ideas to life. And I had an opportunity in 2011 to give a talk in the UK to a children's treatment center, which with an audience that included service providers and parents. And my colleague, young Willam and I, uh, had been talking about these F words. And the, the punchline is that we, I put together a talk that animated the World Health Organization's framework for health with these F-word. Mm-hmm. Talking about fitness. Yes. Function, fun, family, friends, and future. Yeah. And it was a kind of, so we did the talk and when we, when we finished the, the talk young said, we should write this up. Mm-hmm. Right. Kind of literally it was a throwaway idea. Mm-hmm. And the paper has gone viral. It sure has. I know there's way over a hundred thousand downloads of that article, and I'm one of them for sure. Yeah. So specifically though, those, those six F words, why those particular six? Well, the thing that, that I think is very important to underscore, and you'll probably hear this more than once from us, is that the F words are nothing more mm-hmm. Than a, a acute effort. They're, they're fun. Yeah. The effort to bring to people's attention. Yeah. The World Health Organization's framework for help. And a very brief detour. In 1980, the World Health Organization, uh, published the International Classification of impairments, disabilities, and handicaps. So listen to those words. Yeah. Impairments, disabilities, and handicaps. 21 years later, it's the International Classification of Disability Functioning and Health. Yeah. So the, the language, the concept had emerged considerably and supported, as I said at the beginning, our thinking about what is rather than what isn't. Yeah. So we wanted to give people a way to think about the World Health Organization's framework for health and underscoring framework for health. Yeah. Um, and the f words for child development. Uh, it was originally for childhood disability, but then people said, this isn't just for kids with disabilities. It isn't. And Elizabeth will tell you it's not just for kids. Um, and so we wanted people to have a simple way to think about the many forces that together reflect and influence our health. Thank you. Alright, well let's begin So let's pick one. We're gonna start with that one function. And in your article you emphasize that how a child does an activity is less important than the fact that they're actually doing it. Can you talk about how we can encourage educators to prioritize participation over, um, trying to be perfect about something, trying to be quote, normal in, in the functioning of, of doing something. Thank you. The, the mm-hmm. This is an opportunity to, to again, make an important, I think an important point about the fact that our traditional thinking, as you have just said Yeah. Was that there's normal and abnormal, and that's a kind of dumb, the dichotomy. Yep. Uh, and we won't say anymore about that because Yeah, exactly. Um, we, what, what the ICF, what the World Health Organization's Framework does, and what we hope the f efforts do is remind people that there are many ways of doing things. Yeah. And the f uh, the F word for function is in fact functioning. The World Health Organization International Classification of functioning. And we wanna make that distinction because the ING implies action activity. Right. And how things are done mm-hmm. Is not nearly as important there, you know, there are 15 to 20% of the world is left-handed. Yeah. I use that example all the time because there was a time, and perhaps it's still the case in some places where being left handed was considered Yes, very abnormal, bad, a satanic, uh, absolutely yes. Manifestation and so on. Yes. How stupid is that? Mm. Yeah. And so by, by expanding our thinking, and I'll say it foolishly our tolerance of doing things differently, some of us are wearing glasses so we can see, well, we're using hearing aids so we can hear well, um, we, we have a, a very strange, um, and inconsistent view of doing things differently. It's okay to wear glasses, but if, if the three of us were all wheelchair users, people would say, isn't that amazing that those people with disabilities can actually still do things? Yes. It's silly. And so how things are done mm-hmm. Is less important than that. They are done. And add the extra point about children. Children are in a state of a constant state of being, becoming and belonging. Mm-hmm. So when they start doing things, they do them their own way. They do. And with time and interest, and Elizabeth will say more about this, they do things better and better, possibly at a world class level, but mostly most of us are not world class. But if we can do things in a way that's important for us, that should be enough. Yeah, exactly. Beautifully said Elizabeth. Mm-hmm. Uh, the next f word that we're talking about is family. Mm-hmm. So, um, you know, we like to think in our early years community here, particularly in Hamilton, that family, family really are our partners in this mm-hmm. Uh, relationship. And so, uh, we talk about family being essential and, and they provide an essential environment for, for children. Um, can you talk a little bit about, um, how can we, as early childhood educators help to support families? How do we, um, you know, build those relationships rather than just seeing a child with some things that need to be, uh, developed further? Oh, thank you. That's a, an excellent question and one that's close to my heart. Yes, I know. Um, I think the fact that you're asking how can we build these relationships is the key right there. It's about communicating, it's about collaborating, it's about connecting, it's about seeing who the family is for that child, um, that is the center of their whole world. It's, um, mm-hmm. There's this phrase that I, uh, coined a couple years ago, and Dr. Rosenbaum has helped me share it with the world. Mm-hmm. Um, but it started when people start, came into my child's world and started. Stating facts to us and data. And um, my youngest is medically fragile and so they were putting limitations based on what they thought was the data that would be, and I said, okay, you have your textbooks, but unless you're going to learn about my child in the world he lives in mm-hmm. Then we're not gonna get anywhere. You need to learn his story, his storybook. Yeah. And I said, it's only by bringing them together do we actually get what we really need, which is individualized care. Mm-hmm. And it's looking at family centered care. That's the whole crux of everything. Yeah. Family doesn't have to be, you know, the biological, we're gonna go get our, our DNA, our, our, you know. Sure. The 23, whatever it is, ancestry looking at, it's who is most important to this child. Yeah. And so I think that by opening up, especially in the early years where it's so difficult for parents who have been attached to their children. Yes. Hip to hip literally, or chest to chest mm-hmm. That are suddenly becoming somewhat separated from them.'cause they're going into another environment like daycare camp before. It's a time where communication is at the utmost. Yeah. That's actually a spot where we can really, truly bring in all of the F efforts because look at how we're communicating with people. It's a language, it's a style. Mm-hmm. People wanna know all about their child's day, not just one thing. Okay. Did they have fun or Yeah. Did they function in this way? They wanna know the whole picture. Mm-hmm. And that's what this truly incorporates is all of those different things as the children are learning and growing. Yeah, absolutely. You know, in COVID, uh, in childcare, childcare was deemed an essential service, which we were happy about. Um, the, the solution was though to keep the families out. Uh, mm-hmm. The families came into the door and then someone was designated as that person that would, uh, take the child from the parent. And yeah. Um, you know, none of that nice transition, welcoming in the room, seeing what's happening, what is it, who are their friends, and what do they gravitate to doing? And it, it really, uh, put a strain on those relationships at that time. Well, and you actually bring to mind a, a, a flip side. Um, anecdote, if you don't mind. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. That during COVID, um, well before COVID, I had tried to take my youngest to the early on centers. Okay. And, um, because I'd gone with my neurotypical teen Sure. Teenager when she was a child. And yes, basically I was told pretty much flat out, this is not the place for your child. This is, you know, not his, where he should be. We're gonna recommend, you know, we'll give you some other ideas, but this isn't it. Oh. And it was because they weren't comfortable or, you know, used to the level of complexity that my child brings, or any child that is a little bit off stream. And, and it's not for lack of wanting, it just, they already had their program going on. Well, you know, in a way, thank goodness for COVID for that because the early on centers were closed. And that enabled us here in Ninyan to actually develop a program where we were able to take our children that are on the more complicated side to actually have smaller groups with the families in the early on centers. Wow. And I will say that it was mind boggling to me when I saw the woman who had actually told me, this isn't the place for your son. Yes. Yes. Laying on the floor. Mm-hmm. Making faces with him in the mirror. Wow. And I went, really? Yeah. Okay. So I think sometimes too, it's about exposure. It's about being open. It's about allowing people to come in and make the world a more. Accessible place. We build our, our world in a way that is not thinking of everyone. You know, we think of the stairs and the ramps and the Yes, the, you know, building cutouts and well, what if we made a place that was actually accessible for everyone and everyone's gonna be able to get up the ramp instead of some going up the stairs and some up the ramp. So I think exposure and also inviting children in inviting the families in, especially if they're not ready to let go of their child where accessible. I think that's a really great way to start. Absolutely. That's the beauty of early ons. And I, you know, I'm sorry about that story, but it sounds like there's been an evolution, sort of, you know, out of adversity of COVID did come some opportunity to rethink things and try new things, so Oh, definitely. Yeah. Huge progress. That's an encouraging story. Um, so Oh, yes, yes. That a small point of course that I, I think is I an important context to this and that is that people in the community in general mm-hmm. Think about children with disabilities, um, as, um, needing a diagnosis and treatment. Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm. And that is, that is a legitimate. Concept based upon how medicine has traditionally worked, healthcare has traditionally worked. Yeah. Um, and so there is a fear, uh, among many people that they'll do something wrong. Yeah. Um, and that is very occasionally the case, uh, or a possibility because a child has some particular biological impairment. Yes. But for the most part, that's not a reasonable concern. Right. But an understandable concern. Right. And that what we're trying to do is to break down this notion that when the, you know, we'll take the child away and fix them mm-hmm. With our car, and then it'll drive well, the child will be trying. Right. And think differently about what we're trying to do in promoting development. Absolutely. Yeah. Uh, another excellent point I think too, Sue, if you think of that, when you think of the development, is to remember too that it's not just the child developing, it's the family as well and all that are around them. So when we're looking at learning about the child, why not be asking the parents to send information in or the siblings to send information because we're learning about how that child is and what their strengths are. Absolutely. We sometimes run into that when it's time to, uh, introduce a child into childcare. Mm-hmm. The reality is, is that's often needed. And, um, educators, like you say both of you, there is a fear factor. They're so afraid they don't wanna break the child, they don't want to, you know, do some sort of damage and mm-hmm. What our experiences have been with, with the, the right kind of, um, education information dialogue with families. What we find happening is that once the educator gets over the fear that the child won't break in half and they develop a relationship and they get to know the child, they get to see the child's, um, you know, likes and, and their eyes lighting up and, um, we find that then it goes. Better once that relationship is formed. Right. That the, they see a connection happening and, um, then the child seems to be less of a worry for them in that regard. Yeah. We've noticed that. Ask anyone who's held a newborn baby. Yeah. Right. You're, you're terrified that you're gonna hurt their neck. Oh, I know you're gonna. Yes. Yeah. They're little heads. Exactly. And, and it just, it takes time and it takes an openness and a willingness to try. Thank you. Thank you. And, and this is why the parents' experience and perspective is so important. Yes. Mm-hmm. The last thing the parent wants is for the child to be broken. Yeah. Parents definitely are acquiring every day, thousands of, of experiences. And they know their child. Yes. And they know what the child can do, wants to do, and so on. Mm-hmm. And so having the, having the connection between parent and, and, uh, community people, essential. Yeah. Parents need to be trusted. Definitely. Excellent. Okay. I'm going to move along Dr. Rosenbaum to fitness and, um, in Hamilton, I have to say that one thing that we really are moving forward on is a renewed appreciation, a renewed understanding and value to play to, um, being outdoors in nature, regardless of a child's ability that we, we want to take kids outside and, and challenge them physically. Uh, in fact, there's something, a movement a little bit here is, is called risky play. Mm-hmm. And risky play is allowing children to challenge themselves, to the extent of their abilities to participate, in physical activities. So what advice would you have Dr. Rosenbaum, for educators working with children that are challenged physically, but we still want them to have that level of fitness. Well, one of the things that we started, when we started thinking about fitness, we were thinking about physical, uh, wellbeing on the, of children who have limitations in mobility, for example, who don't have as much chance to run around. Sure. But, uh, people reminded us. Yep. And these, these words, these i, these concepts continue to e to evolve and emerge. Yeah. And we're also talking about mental fitness. Yes. Yes. Mental wellbeing. Yep. Um, the, um, the reality, one of the realities in our world is that the word mischief was never, ever, ever said by a child. It's not a children's word. Mm-hmm. It's an adult's word and it's the description of behavior that we don't want the children to do. Mm-hmm. One can think about children with developmental impairments as among other things being, uh, at either at risk of, or in fact experiencing deprivation. Right. Mm-hmm. Right. Because they're not doing, they're not able to do the things that typically developing kids do. I mean, I, I always use 2, 2, 2 year olds as an example, I think of two year olds as teenagers in training. And, and they are, they are motor minded. They are exploring relentlessly, they are learning constantly. They're putting themselves at risk. They're driving us crazy as their care parents. Uh, but imagine that same child with just a restriction in vision or just a restriction in mobility and how deprived their, their, their experience will be. Mm-hmm. And so part of what we need to do is incr is set children up safely to have mm-hmm. Experiences to, to, to try things out, to learn what's interesting, what they can do, and so on. Uh, and again, understanding the, the, my, one of my favorite words is development. Children are constantly changing and they're changing on the basis of what they're doing and learning. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So it's essential that we give children opportunities to do and to learn. Mm-hmm. Otherwise they will remain blobs on a, in the same spot. Mm-hmm. And will be deprived of the ordinary experiences we don't even think about.'cause we're so busy chasing our kids. Yeah. Yeah. Elizabeth, how about you and your son? Mm-hmm. In terms of fitness and functioning that way? Um, what is it that he likes to do? Oh, well, it's fantastic. I. I, I think my, my key motto I always like to tell people is that, you know, if it, just because a child's silent doesn't mean that yes, you know, they're disengaged. Um, I actually have, uh, two, uh, children with significant needs and the eldest is, uh, turning 28, and he is legally blind and, and functionally illiterate. And yet he has learned how to take the public transit here in, um, Niagara and is learning he how to do things that make him feel proud and have fun. Um, particularly the library. I think he funds them completely himself by the amount of books he takes out. Wow. Um, that he doesn't read, but he likes to talk about. Um, but for my youngest, um, one of my, my favorite analogies, what I'm, well Peter Will, or Dr. Rosebaum will be talking about this later. I'm sure, but we are particularly fond of parenting as a ch uh, as a dance led by the child. Right. And when I think of that, I automatically think about how my son, who is a, a spastic quadriplegic and nonverbal trach, deaf blind, and yet when he hears music or he's happy, his hands are continually dancing, they're folding and moving on each other. Mm-hmm. And he's going. And we had a, an instance where we, uh, we had an opportunity to use the brain computer interfacing. Mm-hmm. And it was remarkable the change that happened with everyone in that room who had known him before and suddenly had an opportunity to see how active his mind was. Yes. It wasn't something they could tell from how stoic his face is or, you know, any of that because it takes a lot of muscle control to smile to Fran, any of that. Mm-hmm. So if he's putting his energy into everything else, then he's going to be, you know, kind of, of, of, I'll call it stoic for his face, but as soon as they could hear those controlled thought patterns. Yeah. And those movements, and doing that without anybody. Showing him how to do it, just verbally instructing him. Yeah. The whole pattern changed for him. Mm-hmm. Everything in that goal system now became, wait, we need to challenge this child. Yes. We've been sitting back letting him just sit and gaze and, wait a minute here, there's a lot more. And yet so many of our children don't have that opportunity to have high tech devices attached to them. And because they're the quieter ones or because Sure. You know, they're, it's, it's easier sometimes then they're not as challenged. Mm-hmm. But we're not about, you know, sitting back, when we say strengths based, it's not about, you know, oh, we'll let the kid develop on their own. Right. It's about finding goals and challenges that fit with who they are and what they want. Yes. Something, um, that we have been working on here, and this is how we started to have this conversation with you in the first place because we were, uh, really following the work of Dr. Shelley Moore. Mm-hmm. And, uh, she started to talk at one of her last presentations about the concept of seed packets. Mm-hmm. And about, um, you know, making that, uh, connection that children are like seeds that they need. Mm-hmm. You know, to be planted in such a way that they will thrive and grow and prosper. But what is it? Let's, let's be investigators and detectives. Mm-hmm. Especially for kids that are nonverbal perhaps. Right. That can't tell us. But we can, we can watch them carefully and closely and filling out a seed packet a little bit like a child profile. Mm-hmm. Getting families to tell us, because we might not know that they love music. Mm-hmm. Or they love to be outside in the sun listening to the birds or, you know, whatever it is in the rain. Um. It. It's just a remarkable way to get that insight from you as a parent and from siblings. Well, and it's also, we have to remember that when a child goes outta the home environment, everything changes. Yeah, it does. Right. So what you're seeing in, you know, a busy classroom or the mall or wherever we are, isn't necessarily what the parents are seeing in those quiet moments, in those comfortable moments. That's why I actually have my son's profile everywhere. Yes. It goes to every single provider on one side is his F-word profile, and the other side is the all about me. And so, because especially when we're in the hospital or we're with somebody new mm-hmm. I want them to know this isn't the whole picture of what you're seeing before you No. Yeah. This is just a little piece. Mm-hmm. That's right. That's particularly important when children are in, in needing healthcare. Mm-hmm. Some of us are not at our best when we're in the hospital. No. So a profile of who this person is, and I wanna make the point about, about the, the an f words profile provides an individual picture of the person, and is every bit as important in terms of personalized medicine as knowing what your genetic makeup is. Not more important, but not less important. Absolutely. And so instead of being a case of this or this, or this diagnosis, this is a person with mm-hmm. Who is the person Yes. What is their life about? And how can we, how can we work with the person as distinct from or in addition to their medical needs? Lovely. That's why we have the efforts profile for every person in our family. We have one for my mother in her day program, one for my son in the program he goes to. I use one whenever I'm talking anywhere. Sure. And my, my 14-year-old, my teenager actually came to me when it was out of date and said, mom, we need to update this. Yeah. Yeah. So there's something new. Yeah. Well, yeah, she, because it clearly lays out for her, you know, what her expectations is, what her joys are. You know, we want her to come out and join us in the, the living room more while she doesn't want me going in her room, popping her pimples so we can make that arrangement on her profile. And she wants to make sure it's in there in writing. Yes. But that's, you know, for it to be coming from the child Yeah. To be saying. And it was so illuminating for her too. I also always, always encourage people when they're doing these things, talk to the siblings. Um, because if anybody wants to know what motivates somebody, absolutely. And I don't, it doesn't have to be a blood sibling. It can be a close friend that they play with, or neighbor or any of that. Yeah. Yeah. There's, uh, an agency here in Hamilton that what they did is they, you know, with ai, AI has opened up the world in so many ways. Some good, some bad, but, yep. Um, the one thing that they did is they created their own superhero. Mm-hmm. So there's some sort of, you know, way to input all of your likes, all of your dislikes, things that you want people to know about you and create a superhero package. Mm-hmm. So it's like a plastic package. Maybe you've seen these, but the whole organization did one. Uh, and they all had them posted on their office door. And when I went there for a visit, I was really taken aback because I could just look at this superhero package and look and see, oh, oh, you have a lot of cats at your house. You love cats. Well, me too. I have two cats at my house. And so, you know, it just was a fantastic, um, conversation starter. Mm-hmm. Fantastic. Okay. So our fourth F word, uh, Dr. Rosenbaum is all about fun. And so can you talk a little bit about why, why is fun a thing? Why is fun important, do you think? Well, one, one of the things we haven't said is that each of the F words Yeah. Is associated with a an ICF word. So fitness is associated with body structure and function. Okay. And functioning is associated with the world health organization's concept of activity. Okay. Fun is associated with personal factors. Okay? And the argument that we've made, which has kind of been made already by Elizabeth, some of Elizabeth's examples, is if we know what's fun for a child, right? We professionals, and we parents can set the child up for situations, which we might call. Therapy. Yeah. But which are not therapy. They're fun activities. Mm-hmm. Yep. And uh, you know, my favorite example'cause it's so easy, is a child who likes the water. Yeah. Well, if you're, you're in the water, you are, you have some freedom, you weigh less because of the ancy of water. Yes. Uh, if you're there with your friends, you can be screaming and yelling and s splashing and kicking and even moving around. Yeah. And that is also hap that is also promoting aspects of fitness. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Child doesn't know that. And we're not giving them therapy. We're setting them up in a situation which engages their interests. And some of this is so self-evident that when, when we give talks about it, I sometimes tease people. I say, I see you in the back row rolling your eyes. Because I'm saying things that are obvious. And you're right, they are obvious, but they're not things we do. No, I know. So what, what you're, what you who are rolling your eyes are saying, yeah, we understand that. Mm-hmm. What we're trying to do, and this is speaks to so much of can child's work, is trying to help people see that these ideas can be implemented, can become actionable, and we're going below the surface. Every child I've ever seen in over 50 years came with a family. Duh. Yeah. Yeah. We don't pay enough attention to family. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Every, we work in the field of developmental disability. What was that first word? Oh, they disability, right? No, it was development. Yeah. And the point of all of our work is to try to help people see that we can pay attention to these ideas and can animate them in ways that go beyond just understanding them to the implications of what they mean, paying attention to family, valuing family's voices, really interested in what children want to do and their fun and so on. Right. I know, uh, I think sometimes, uh, I can speak for early childhood educators that in the busyness of the day and all of the things that, uh, they have to do and, and, you know, document what they had for lunch if they went to the washroom. Um, there's also pedagogical documentation that they do and they have to put the beds out and they have to get the lunch ready and they have to get the snack and help them get dressed. And in the busyness of all of those tasks, sometimes the obvious becomes less obvious that to have fun. It's almost like we have to make time for fun. We have to really watch a child closely to pick up on those cues that are, are telling us that they really, really enjoy something and find time for that. Make time. But I think it's also, it doesn't have to be something separate. You're talking about lunchtime. Yes. And you're talking about, you know, getting the cots out. Well, the kids can help with putting the blankets on and making it fun. I think it's about building that way that all kids can kind of be involved in the way that works for them in any of the situations. It doesn't have to be a time block that we're saying, this is just it. Yeah. This is the time for fun. It's finding that way to even find the menial tasks. Yeah. And element, because some kids. They love to clean, they like to sweep. I know they like to dust. True, true. So let's make it something that's encouraging and fun and we celebrate those kids that want to do that that way. Yeah. Yeah. I remember being in a classroom of older kids, and there was one little kiddo who was really, um, you know, bothered by the fact that the pencil crayons were all broken. And it's a pet peeve of mine too. I would agree. Mm-hmm. Um, and so we got him, um, two different kinds of, um, pencil sharpeners and we tasked him with that job of coming in and checking to see what the status is or was of those pencil crayons. Mm-hmm. And one was just a manual, one to turn, the other one was an electric one. He loved that job. Mm-hmm. So much. And he thought that that was, um, the most fun thing that he could do. Yeah. In that after. And it was something so simple. Yet it was really helpful to the whole functioning of the classroom because everyone was grateful. Right. Yeah. And I think not just dismissing it, I, I'll never forget one of my, my grade three students when they came, and my name, my maiden name is Horak, and he's Miss, can you, can you put it on my spelling list and know Sweet? Like you really do not need to learn how to spell Zorach. Like it took me years. Yeah. Yes. Uhhuh. And he was so determined, and I'm explaining to the parents, I did not put this on here on purpose. Like, this is not, and he was so proud to tell the class by memory how to spell my last name, that he was pretty much glowing. And I, like the first time he said it, I was taken aback going, whoa. That this is, what are the parents gonna think? What's going on here? Sure. But that's what he wanted. Yeah. And the look on his face Sure. When he Yeah. Achieved it. Yep. Like, how can you say no to that? And he probably did not become the editor of the Oxford English. It was not, this was not a career path for him. Right, right. Just like the, the sorting of the crayons and the pencils. Yeah. This is a sense of competence. I can do this. Exactly. Yeah. And typically, I remember my, my older daughter, mm-hmm. Uh, before she became a lawyer, was once a 3-year-old. And when my wife was making an omelet, she insisted on learning how to crack eggs. It was just something you needed to learn to do as a way of finding your levels of competence about things that are relevant to three year olds or 30 year olds. I love that. So again, people need to see that not everything has to have a career goal in mind. Mm-hmm. He did not become an omelet chef. Might make great omelets though. Yeah, absolutely. Oh my goodness. Great stories. Okay, so, friends, the importance of friends to foster those genuine, uh, peer friendships are important. And so do you too. Um, I'll begin with you perhaps Elizabeth, about, the importance of friends for your children and, as an educator also. Mm-hmm. What's your insight on that? Well, through lived experience, I can tell you it's a really difficult one. I think that there's a lot of challenges when it comes to the world of childhood disability. Um, and I. That it can be very difficult for children to develop those meaningful connections. Um, I think that's where the adults can become so vital and so important when we are. Seeing, um, children that are perhaps curious or inquisitive, um, opening that up, that door up. Um, I'll never forget the first time I was at Costco and there was a young girl and she was just fascinated by my son. Like he, you know, yes, he's in a wheelchair and he is got a trach in his throat and he's, and she was just really, really curious And yeah. Then the mom came and she. Grabbed her child, pulled her behind her and said, I don't know how you do it. I'd rather die and walked away. And while I'm trying not, you know, trying to stop my friend from, from going after her and ending up in jail, I realized that it came from a space of fear and it, it was such a learning opportunity. I wish I could find that person and, and that mom and say thank you because it opened my eyes to the fact that I need to make it something more approachable. And so now my son's wheelchair. Yeah. Well, especially when he was younger, we had a toy wheelchair with a toy winning the poo that I modified with a trach in hearing aids. Yeah. I will not tell you how many parents and how many adults out there have removed that trach so that they can play with it. Yeah. From that toy. Because now it's approachable. It's not, like we said before, with the fear of possibly breaking someone, well, it's a Winnie the Poo, but maybe the stuff is gonna come out. It's no big deal. Yeah. So. I think that it's also about recognizing that peers may not be of the exact same age group. I know that for my eldest, his best friend was an older girl who had more patience and empathy for, he was the chatter box that never stopped, um, going. And the first time we sat, we saw him sitting down for a one way mirror at a children's center, had to say, I don't know how you did that, but we didn't wanna know the secret. And it's'cause they had weighed down the vest with, um, curtain weights. And as they were moving them, he learned that's how he had to sit. But he was go, go, go. It needed an older child and they are, he's turning almost 30. Ouch. Um, and she is still one of his closest friends ever. Right. Um, I think that it's also about just recognizing where those opportunities are and encouraging and helping parents. That's gonna be a tough one when they can't see the kids that are around their children during the day. So it's about trying to let them know, oh, they, you know, they spent some time with so and so, or that, you know, and letting them know when you see these kind of connections or, you know, this child was really interested in this about your child, maybe your child can bring something in more to share about that. With my youngest too, because he's so complex, we also brought him into my daughter's school from the very beginning so that the kids could ask any questions, they could talk to him, and so there was also this whole group of kids that are ready to protect him and, and love on him as he grows. Beautiful. Um, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Can I just add to that again, the, the context of friends or friendships is meant to remind people about the notion of participation, which is one of the international classification of functioning framework words participation. Yeah. Is defined as engagement in life in ways that are meaningful to you. Yeah. And what Jan, Willem and I did in thinking about friends was think about typically developing kids and how important their social relationships are. I mean, school, school is where you may learn some math and history, but mostly you learn about socialization. Mm-hmm. And so, as Elizabeth has said, and many parents have told us this, that friendships of the typical sort of the peer relationships can be really challenging when, when the child in question has a, a variety of functional challenges. And what we have done is, is expanded the notion of friendships beyond peers to relationships that are meaningful. And that might be, and this is not an putting down anybody, it might be the bus driver, right? It might be the preschool teacher, it might be the aide, it might be a grandparent, it might be a pet. What we're hoping is that the child is learning about other animate beings and learning empathy and that other people are learning about opportunities to interact with this person in ways that are meaningful to this person. Yeah, yeah. Because it's true. You see any group of children and how they're changing and they're playing their, their relationships don't stay static. And I think what you said, Peter, especially about even pets, you know what child hasn't adored having a pet as their best friend. Sure. They're so unconditional. Right. You know, I know a lot of adults Right, too. Yeah. That is their best friend. Exactly. You know, my cat can't talk back. Yeah. They look at you so lovingly. Um, you know, long time ago I was a resource teacher and I used to love working with parents and families and back in the day, resource teachers did home visits. And, um, you know, I, one family comes to mind and she would check in with me once the child left preschool and had gone into the school system and would, every year would check in, how did it go? And just keeping me posted. And, uh, you know, we had multiple needs and had a hard time getting along with friends, et cetera. And speech wasn't his best thing. And mm-hmm. One year she called me and I could tell by the sound in her voice, she was so happy. And I, I wondered like, what, what happened? And she said. This was about grade two, he finally got invited to his very first birthday party. Wow. And so she said, I waited and waited and he didn't have any friends. And then all of a sudden she said it really, uh, uplifted my husband and I to, uh, get that little card in his backpack at the end of the day. Just a little thing. But a big thing those social connections and, and enjoying, uh, you know, being with friends and in a strange environment with a, a party atmosphere was important to her. And it's also such a learning opportunity, right? As when we're working with those ages, it's, it's remembering that, you know what, not everybody needs to get along all the time. Nobody has to be completely agreeable and, you know, everybody's happy go lucky. But that's about helping the children like figure out what is the best way for conflict resolution and living Yes. Independently, not just, you know, this is where we actually, I, what was the old want story about everything I needed to know? I learned in kindergarten. That's right. Yes. Mm-hmm. It's still as relevant today as it was back when it was written. You know? It's, it's truly, that's where we're designing, you know, the adults of the future. Absolutely. Yes. Okay. Speaking of future, I think that's our, our last, uh, sixth FF word. But I do have a question, but another f word, but we'll get to that in a minute. But, um, Dr. Rosenbaum, um, we're on future. I'm sure you know the last one. And so tell us about the importance of, um, you know, parents, uh, balance be between being in the moment and, and being present in the moment and, and cherishing that, but yet at the same time, um, planning for the future that will maximize a child's ability to, um, be independent and, and have some community inclusion. There's several points I'll make briefly. The first is that the World Health Organization's, five concepts are body structure and function activity, participation in the context of personal factors and environmental factors. Okay. And there is no time element. Mm-hmm. In effect, the World Health Organization is pre, uh, presenting us with a way of taking a snapshot of today. Mm-hmm. So there isn't a time element, uh, because we are into f words and because we're working with kids and families who are constantly a work in progress and constantly changing and constantly developing, we added an arrow at the bottom of the f of the framework to, with the word future. We make the point that this is not an ICF concept. Right. But it is essential for those of us who work with children and and their families to recognize the constancy of change. And we also make the point that development, uh, is something that's happening to children and to families. Mm-hmm. So future is easy to think about. My, my 6-year-old is going to go, is going to become an engineer or a nurse or a doctor or truck driver or whatever. And that, that's silly for any 6-year-old to be mm-hmm. That or any parent of a 6-year-old. Mm-hmm. Future can be tomorrow, future could be next week, future can be this year in school and so on. With the concept of, uh, the idea of being. Who you are right now, belonging as we've been talking about with, with fitting in and, and, and context and so on and becoming. Mm-hmm. And so we want people to take what, what has been talked about and very wisely by a colleague in, in the United States of a life course perspective. And all of this is relevant particularly to children whose. Contact who's whose, whose, um, journey is likely to be a bumpy or a different one from usual, typically developing kids. We just assume they're gonna get on with their lives, and they do. And sometimes they do things that we're happy with and sometimes they do things that, not what we planned, but when kids have an identified impairment that challenges their development, we want people to think about how, what they are doing and how what we are talking about with them is going to be useful for their future in terms of, as we were talking about before, feeling competent. Yeah. You know, we don't have to be the egg, the, the, the, um, um, omelet chef, but feeling competent, feeling that tomorrow when something comes up, I will be interested in trying it. And this has implications for how we advise families to think about helping kids by making tasks easy. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because if it's easy and the child does it, then tomorrow if it's just a little less easy. Yeah. Tomorrow being the future, the child will say, I did this yesterday and I will try and Yeah. It's not working as we as easily, but I can do it. Wonderful. So helping parents to think about those things, not just about what university they'll go to, or isn't it sad that they won't go to university, but thinking about building a sense of competence and capability and an energy to try things. Mm-hmm. And find out who they are as children. Find out who they are as families. So this, this is one, and Elizabeth needs to add to this, but this is a, this is an area that many parents have talked about as finding challenging, and that's because I think we're thinking about what's gonna become with about with them, what's gonna become of them when they're adults. Right. But we're also talking about what's gonna become come of them this afternoon and tomorrow, right? Mm-hmm. Elizabeth, did you want to add anything to that? Oh, for sure. Yeah. Um, it, I will fully admit, in all honesty, that future was the one that was the. The difficult, most difficult one for me in the beginning. Um, so my youngest is considered palliative and has been for, well, as of tomorrow, eight years. Um,'cause he is turning eight tomorrow. So, um, but I also lived for 18 years with my eldest who was considered palliative, um, or life limiting illness. And now, like I said, is turning 30. Um, and it was in hearing Dr. Rosenbaum speak and really learning and listening to everything I could to realize that future is part of our here and now. When we, we would need live in the moment when we live right now. And we fully, that means that we're also incorporating our hopes, our dreams, our possibilities. It doesn't mean that we have, uh, you know, a glass ball that could give us the future.'cause if we could, we'd be billionaires, um, well, or gazillionaires, whatever we'd be. But, you know, it's, it's about knowing. While we're here and we're celebrating what's here and we acknowledging what's here, we can also dream a little. And we can also, you know, just like Dr. Rosen said, it could just be about tomorrow. You know what, it's, it's gray and, and awful and chilly and slippery out there right now. But tomorrow, hey, it could be sunny and we're gonna be seeing the grass growing in the springs blooming. Um, so I think that when it comes to the future, it's like all of these f words that you're talking about. Mm-hmm. A lot of people are saying that they're the favorite words of childhood development because when we translate them into different languages, they're not all gonna start with f Like that is No, that's right. Yes. The reality. We discovered that. Yep. Exactly. And at Can Child, we have so many, I've lost count how many people? 35. 35. Different translations of the, the profile words and the the concepts. But that's what it is. They're concepts. Yeah. So it's not like we mentioned with family, it doesn't have to be biological. It's who that child considers family. Sure. About friends. It doesn't have to be, there's no set black and white where it fits. And neither are children going to fit into nice tidy boxes. Right. And so when we talk about something like future, it's what we want to define it as. And I think that's where it's following the lead again of the child. Yeah. Right. That's where we're learning about who they are. And it's about recognizing that, especially in the early years, those transitions are hard for families, especially for parents and for children that are getting, you know, they're being separated. So realizing this is part of the future, this is what they're living in the future now as they're working towards the next part. Can I add another, uh, idea that's come to us over the years that we now add when we do talks about F-word? Um, it may sound as though we're saying that don't bother with therapy and therapists and professionals because we bought F-word. Not, not, not what we're saying. No. What we are saying is that we need to think about the profile that the family creates of their child and themselves, the context of the child, and think about how we as professionals when offering advice, need to see that that advice fits with the family's values, the family's opportunities, the family's limitations in terms of space or money or whatever. Mm-hmm. And also that it is a fair question for us to say, okay, we're recommending this intervention, this drug, this surgery, whatever. What's the goal? Yeah. And if the goal is, for example, with spasticity to decrease the spasticity, that may be an appropriate goal if the spasticity is associated with pain and discomfort and disruptive sleep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But if it is simply because spasticity is a problem, then it's, and it's not going to help the child's functioning. And we have good evidence that that usually is the case. It doesn't help the child's function. Right? Mm-hmm. Why are we doing it? Yeah. Yeah. And so the F-word profile. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the F-word concepts give us an opportunity to be analytically critical about what the heck we're trying to do. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So my question, about the F words is that I noticed that the word faith wasn't part of them. That's an f word that's, comes to my mind. I know that whenever I read, any books that tell you how to have a successful life, that having some component in your life, of faith, whatever it is, a, a belief system, or it could be being in nature as your place where you find, inspiration. And I'm just wondering, can it be, could a parent could a family, add in that particular word if that's what they wish to do? Well, the, uh, I'll answer the question in a minute, but one of the thoughts I have, if you can do this after the podcast Yeah. Is to put, uh, the F-word Yes. Poster with the F words and the ICF framework together so people can see in visually how, as I've said, uh, the F words are meant to bring the ICF framework to life. Yes. Okay. And the reason that faith isn't there mm-hmm. As a separate word is because we chose other words. Sure. Uh, there are actually quite a few f words in the dictionary that we haven't included Exactly. Funding and and so on, right? Yes. Yes. The answer that I usually give to people and the faith is, is one that's come forward before is if faith is important to you as a, as a, a parent or as a family, we have absolutely no problem. Mm-hmm. With that being part of your profile, but we would say to you, right, we would think that faith is a personal issue for you. I don't have faith. You do have faith. So your, when you get to the, to the personal factors component of filling out your f f-word profile, you will have faith there. Faith may also be a, a, an environmental factor. In other words, it's part of what your family and your community are important to you. Yes. So there's no problem with adding other words, but the idea, the f words that we've chosen are meant to represent the five components of the F framework. So we're not dismissing faith or food or funding. Funding is an environmental mm-hmm. Factor. It's a family factor. If your kid needs an A piece of equipment and you can't afford it, or if the environment doesn't facilitate it, that's a problem. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But it's not, it's not an F word in our system because we have, I understand. Tried to bring that in together in different ways. Basically by saying that these are F words, which we hope will remind people of the essence of that concept environment. What's the environment of children? Right. There are lots of them. What's the essential environment? It's family. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's not, it's not this to the exclusion of other things. It is this, to remind you that when we're talking about family, we're talking about environment, we're talking about fun, we're talking about personal factors. Thank you. Which are the ICF concepts and personal factors are much more than fun. Yeah. Mm-hmm. We'll put those in the show notes for sure. Mm-hmm. I think that Dr. Rosenbaum, he basically just hit it on the, the head there that Yeah, if, if faith is something that's so important to you, it's going to be everywhere in all of the concepts. Yes. You know, it's what, what, you know, you talked about going for a walk is part of your spiritual. Yes. Well that's, you know, that's part of your functioning as well as part of your faith. And I think that's also something that's important to remember with these concepts is they really are interconnected just as, because it's going for the whole person. So what is fun can also be family. What is friends can also be the future that it's all, so it does not have to, you know, just, it's not check boxes. That's not what we're looking at here. Yes. We're looking at developing the whole picture of each individual. One of the most dramatic and funny, uh, illustrations of this is done by our good friend and, and parent colleague Daniela, who talks about her son and shows a video of him when he was in high school. He's, he's a fellow who has on a surface, very significant functional challenges. Um, but he's also does, uh, every Friday night does adapted, uh, soccer. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And in this video, she's showing him at the soccer practice with his coach. He's in his walker, she's behind him supporting him, and he's learning to do headers. And the coach is sending the ball and he's doing this and it's extremely funny. And she makes the point that here he is having fun Oh, yeah. Working fitness with his family Yes. And his friends. Yes. And, and this is all in, in the, in the service of his future. Which is to become part of his high school team's para soccer team, which he wa which he became very good. So it, it's what Elizabeth just said is all of these things can be and often are integrated. Totally interconnected. Absolutely. But he's not gonna become a professional soccer player. No, but that's, I bett. He's gonna meet a few though. Yes, I bet. But it was, it was never the goal. And again, Nope. You, he's an incredible guy. You need to help people understand that you don't have to be a world champion at something Yeah. To do it. Mm-hmm. When I lecture, I often, um, with, with an audience in the room, I say, how many play, how many people here play tennis? Lots of hands ball. Say, how many of you play professionally and laugh? I think it's a dumb question. I say, why do you bother? Yeah. And they laugh some more because they get the point that you don't have to be world class at something to do it if it's fun for you. Absolutely. Good point. And that concept has to be applied to kids whose development is, is different in some way. And we have, so, I mean, you said the N word at the beginning, normal. Um, and we've gotta get rid of that word altogether. Mm-hmm. Um, it's just a silly idea. Yeah. And I think it goes for all children. Not just those that have Yes. Um, you know, even developmental concerns. I, I think that when I had privilege of going to a Montessori school when I was growing up mm-hmm. And our school motto was, help me to help myself. Yes. It's, it's helping us. Yeah. No matter what child to be the best they can be without, you know, people can dream that they're gonna become, you know, Oscar winning or whatever, but that's just following that child's potential, that child's interest. So it doesn't matter who or what. And that's the same for adults too, I think. You know, I think that when we really look at it, it's about helping an individual, helping each other, helping us all grow to be the best that we can be. Oh my goodness. That's so beautifully said. What a beautiful place. Just to stop the f words but what I wanted to ask a little bit, so perhaps Dr. Rosenbaum, if you could tell us a little bit about what educators could find if they went to the Can Child website and certainly Elizabeth, um, hop on to that too. Well, the first thing is don't do this at 10 o'clock at night. Yeah. So we'll be up all night. Hundred percent. I agree. Sent to Sue, um, is to the F-word hub on the Khaw website, and it is an increasingly rich resort. Of materials, there's a lot of material there that you, the user can look at and download and use, for example, different ways of, uh, creating an F-word profile. And you can do that, for example, with the collage, which allows you to up to upload pictures for each of the six F words. And as we like to say, if a picture's worth a thousand words, you get 6,000 words on one page with the pictures. And of course they can change. And Elizabeth made this point earlier, uh, you can find ways of writing out your f words profile with the goals and the question, why is that an important goal? So the people working with you, uh, and your child will have an understanding of what the purpose of that. The goal is there is a tremendous resource of videos. Uh, some of them award-winning videos. And there's a lovely story, which I'll tell very briefly of when the F-word were first, uh, available. We have, we have some very close colleagues with whom we work, uh, actively in Brazil, and they have a parent who's an animator and he animated a three minute, a lovely animated three minute video of the F-word, which they sent and shared with us. And it's in Brazilian Portuguese. And my Brazilian Portuguese is quite limited. So we wrote back to them and said, could we perhaps, uh, translate this? And so we now have on our website with their permission, their video with our F word adapted from their video of the F words in Portuguese. Another example, and I said we would make sure we refer to our New Zealand colleagues who did a terrific adaptation and animation, if you like, of the f f-word with an F words life wheel, which allows people to identify what their F words are, what their goals are, their current satisfaction or less or less satisfaction with that particular goal as a basis, both for describing today and also what do you wanna work on. So when we come back in a month or six months, we can look at the previous F-word, uh, life wheel and see what's changed. So the, the and and the things on our website are there, like the life word, like the f-word life wheel are there with the permission of the people who created them and who were generous enough to share them with us. Mm-hmm. So, we'll we, we claim ownership of the f-word ideas in the first place, but we don't claim ownership of the life wheel or the videos. Mm-hmm. So what people will find is an enormous resource. And the reason for emphasizing all of this is depending on who you are. Yeah. If, for example, you are wanting to, uh, share these ideas with parents, you might find a, a three minute video. Yeah. Or the five hour, uh, f-word, uh, modules that we've created with the Ministry of Children, community and Social Services. You may find those resources very helpful. Yeah. Yeah. There's, the online training is free. That's on there. Well, yes, I saw that. As well as, yes. You know, if, if you want part of the team to come out and, and work with, uh, with organizations and schools, and that's also part that's there. And so it's really user friendly and I think that it's, it's one of those things, it is ever changing in every building. So there's a lot of resources there. I, I can, uh, I can vouch for that. I have been on that website numerous times and I keep thinking this is so amazing. And in Hamilton we have about 3000, um, early childhood educators working in c childcare. So it's a pretty big mm-hmm. Uh, group of people and they are so committed to helping children, working with families. I know that when the word gets out about what it is that's possible on that website, they'll be all over that because they are always looking for more information. So, um, and there's always individuals that can try, willing to help too. So it's just a matter of reaching out at any point. Reaching out. Mm-hmm. Thank you so much. Well, and by the way, in 2025, we had 107 thousands to the F words page, how many. 107,000 people. Wow. Came visits from 43,000 people, I think from all over the world. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Globally. Those, those statistics though, that information is really awe inspiring. It's there. Yeah. Amazing. Well, we're wrapping up now. I wanna thank both you, uh, Dr. Rosenbaum and Elizabeth for joining this conversation. Uh, we have, uh, learned so much. You are so knowledgeable. Both of you. You have excellent insight. I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Thank you for, thank you for the opportunity. Nice. Thank you for joining us for this rich and inspiring conversation. We hope that Dr. Rosenbaum and Elizabeth's insights into the F function, family, fitness, fun, friends, and future offered new ways to think about children's strengths, stories, and possibilities. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information about Dr. Rosenbaum and Elizabeth and the resources they shared from all of us at a c. Thank you for listening to Can We Talk Conversations in the early years. We look forward to having you again with us next time.