The Truth About... Skin and Sun Safety

Tina and Leah take on some TikTok misconceptions, including influencers' anti-sunscreen rants, head-on (wearing a wide-brimmed hat, of course).  The sun is good. The sun is bad. The sun will give you cancer, no wait, it will protect you from cancers. As is often the case, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Tune in for a factual discussion about sun exposure, tanning, and the difference between UVA and UVB rays on your skin. We talk sunscreens, sun blockers, and why there is so much darn skin cancer down under! (Not THAT down under! We mean Australia/New Zealand).

Some links that you may like:
Who's Spicoli?
List of the recalled Sunscreens
Bain De Soleil Commercial
SPF and Sun Protection explained (Skin Cancer Foundation)
Eating tomatoes - evidence of protection from sun damage (mice)
The ABCDE of identifying melanoma
Five sunburns in childhood increases risk, and more info
Skin Cancer rates across by country (Scientific American)
Our prior episode on Vitamin D
Sunscreen Chemicals and Marine Life (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association)
Guide to the Safer Sunscreens (Environmental Working Group) 

Chapters

• 0:56 Intro - TikTok and Messaging
• 4:08 Skin cancers - some basics
• 9:00 UVA/UVB and wrinkles
• 11:21 Sunburns in childhood !!
• 14:34 Chemicals in Sunscreens
• 21:18 Cover up!
• 24:21 Photo aging while you drive!
• 28:40 Skin cancers and geography
• 30:00 Tomatoes, Alcohol and Vitamin D...
• 33:47 What is SPF anyways?
• 37:19 Skin types - Yes, you have a type!
• 42:32 Wrap up

Transcript

Leah: 0:00

And that is where melanona Mel. Who's What did I just say? Melanona.

Tina: 0:05

I think I know

Leah: 0:06

Who is she?

Tina: 0:08

I'm Dr Tina Kaczor and as Leah likes to say I'm the science-y one

Leah: 0:12

and I'm Dr Leah Sherman and on the cancer inside

Tina: 0:16

And we're two naturopathic doctors who practice integrative cancer care

Leah: 0:20

But we're not your doctors

Tina: 0:22

This is for education entertainment and informational purposes only do not apply any of this information

Leah: 0:29

without first speaking to your doctor

Tina: 0:31

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the hosts and their guests are solely their own

Leah: 0:37

Welcome to the cancer pod Hey, Tina,

Tina: 0:57

Hi, Leah.

Leah: 0:58

I know you don't have the TikTok, but there was this trend going around. I don't know if you saw it in the news where I guess a bunch of influencers were talking about sunscreen and how it's bad for you and you shouldn't, they were kind of promoting not using sunscreen. Did you hear about that? I didn't think so.

Tina: 1:17

My knowledge of TikTok is pretty, it's pretty narrow.

Leah: 1:21

I know, but it was, it was making, like, The rounds in the news, because it is concerning, um, something I learned is that Gen Z gets a lot of their health information from social media. So I'm assuming from TikTok, what is even more interesting is when I searched to find these anti sunscreen videos, all I found were anti, anti dermatologists and other influencers talking about, Oh, no, no, no. This is what. You know, the science shows, or this is what is safe, or I'm just promoting this product. You know, how they all kind of try to sell you something. Anyways, I thought that was really interesting. and it kind of drove me to think that we should talk about just sun safety in general.

Tina: 2:07

Yeah. Tis the season.

Leah: 2:09

is the season. Yes. Um, where I'm at right now, it's not sunny, but that doesn't really matter when it comes to sun safety.

Tina: 2:17

No, because in preparing for this, I saw that there's actually higher rates of some skin cancers, like melanoma, in Oregon than there is in Texas.

Leah: 2:27

That is really surprising. but I can see that because at least when I lived in Arizona, nobody went outside in the middle of the summer because it's 450 degrees Fahrenheit. Uh, and so in Oregon, people are like, Oh, it's, you know, it's, it's not sunny out. So I could, I definitely could see that. I also think, I don't know about any more, but I know when I first moved to Portland, there was a lot of tanning booths.

Tina: 2:52

Hmm. Yeah. So a lot of people miss their sunshine and their rays, so they go and sit in a tanning bed.

Leah: 2:58

Right. And so I don't know with all of the regulations that, um, went down with tanning beds. I don't know if that's necessarily the truth anymore, but I can see that because of the, the overcast weather, people think they're safe.

Tina: 3:11

Yeah. Yeah, and we tend to get our sunshine in consecutive days and months, and then we lose all sunshine for several months. So there's like, it's not intermittent throughout the year, where I grew up in upstate New York, there was, it was some sunshine in the wintertime as well as the summertime. it was parsed out through the 12 months of the year, a little bit more steadily, and here in the Northwest, we get it or we don't. Oh,

Leah: 3:39

you know, my, my own social media that as soon as there's a sunny day, people start posting pictures of their sunburns. know, people in the Portland area start doing that. So I think that's the thing too, right? It's the first sunny day and everyone runs out in shorts and a tank top and.

Tina: 3:56

absolutely. Absolutely.

Leah: 3:57

Or they're gardening and then it was like, they're beet rad. So.

Tina: 4:00

Yeah. It might be 55 degrees out, but if the sun is shining, people are wearing shorts.

Leah: 4:05

Yeah, not me, but, but people do. Yes, that is very true. Not me. I'm still, I'm in a fleece right now. Um, so yeah, I think, you know, you mentioned the skin cancer thing, and I think that is something a lot of people, you know, obviously relate to with, sun exposure, and I think that's a really important thing, that some people think in terms of skin cancer, like, Oh, basal cell squamous cell, those are, those are like, you know, I'm putting big finger quotes, easy cancers, they're not necessarily dangerous. And that's not necessarily true.

Tina: 4:39

No. Caught early. Generally, that is a very good prognosis, caught early squamous cell cancers of the skin and basal cell carcinomas of the skin and even melanoma. When it's caught early, in its earliest stages, is very good prognosis because surgically you can remove the whole thing. But it can get sneaky sometimes too.

Leah: 5:00

Oh, absolutely. And the thing with these skin cancers is that you're not necessarily just removing, you know, especially with melanoma, you're not just removing just the mole. Like they're going to make a huge cut to make sure they're getting the depth and the margins that they need. Absolutely.

Tina: 5:18

Yeah. Yeah. And I would say right off the bat, if someone suspects a melanoma, go to a dermatologist. If you're getting a skin check, you know, primary care physicians are okay. I'll include myself in that basket. We're decent at recognizing things, but nothing replaces a good dermatologist because they can usually on sight and certainly with a biopsy, identify any skin lesions. So they're, they're just very, very good at it. Even, even by sight.

Leah: 5:44

And I would recommend, just from having worked, um, years ago with one of the most prominent melanoma researchers at the time, when you go to the doctor, if you think something is suspicious, don't let them just do a shave biopsy, because he was finding that a lot of the dermatologists in the area were doing shave biopsies of something that Came back as melanoma. And so, yeah, it's just kind of advocating for yourself and making sure, and if you have a really tiny, tiny mole and it's suspicious and somebody is like, well, it doesn't meet the criteria because it has to be of a certain size, you know, like the eraser head size that we talked about in another episode, I would advocate for you to have it removed and get biopsied because it has to start somewhere. Like, it's not like it's going to necessarily magically appear and be the size of an eraser head.

Tina: 6:39

Yeah. And there is, I'm just going to say the A, B, C, D, E of melanoma, right? There's the asymmetry and that has to do with the, the shape of it. Is it asymmetrical or is it symmetrical? There's the border. Are they regular and nice and smooth? Are they irregular borders where they're a little, either looking cauliflower or a little off? Um, the color, you know, color changes, especially if it gets hyperpigmented, but not all melanomas have pigment. That can be challenging. Some melanomas aren't dark. And then. The diameter, which you've already mentioned, uh, size of a number two pencil eraser is, is kind of our limit and evolving. So I think the one you were just mentioning is if it's evolving, if you have this little tiny thing that suddenly gets bigger or suddenly starts itching, changes shape or color or border, distinctions, then that needs to be looked at. And I would go straight to a dermatologist because in my experience there have been Primary care physicians more often do a shave biopsy when they shouldn't have. In my private practice, I noticed that then a dermatologist, dermatologists were more likely to take larger margins, even for the first biopsy, if they thought it could be a melanoma.

Leah: 7:43

So another thing about melanoma, which I don't think people necessarily think about is it's not just the moles that you see. I always say melanoma is the skin cancer where the sun don't shine. Right? I mean, it's going to be the bottom of the foot behind the ear. You know, people are like, well, I've never had that area exposed to the sun. And that is where melanona Mel Who's What did I just say? Melanona

Tina: 8:09

I think I know

Leah: 8:09

Who is she? And that is where melanoma tends to appear, you know, gluteal fold, um, really like under the fingernails, like unusual places.

Tina: 8:21

Yeah. Yeah. So, mucous membranes in the mouth, vaginal area, the anus, could appear anywhere. And then one that's fairly unusual, but I feel like we've been seeing more and more of it, at least anecdotally I've been seeing more of it, is a uveal, which is in the eye. UVL melanoma, which is a good reason to get your eyes checked every once in a while. So, cause any, anyone looking into your eyes should be able to see that early on. So there are different types and you're right. Melanoma is more likely to be hidden and in areas where the sun don't shine than squamous cell carcinoma or basal cell carcinoma which both more often appear where the sun has done damage.

Leah: 8:59

And for those who think, oh, well, this will never happen to me, um, it's not just cancer risk. I mean, you're risking other things like increased wrinkles. And I know that sounds funny, but for some people, premature aging. It is more of a concern. I mean, it's it's just the way it is. Um, you can have other growths appear on your skin as you age, you know, known as age spots or seborrheic keratoses, which are kind of those, like, it looks like it's stuck on. It's like this plaque kind of dark or skin colored mass mole. That's you see on skin that has been, exposed to a lot of sun. Um, there's a variety of why people need to be careful.

Tina: 9:44

Yeah. I think that photo aging is one that. We probably, uh, can emphasize, especially to younger folks, because it does, over time, have consequences, just because UVA, in particular, penetrates fairly deep right to the dermis, right below the epidermis, and that can create that rapid aging effect deeper wrinkles,

Leah: 10:04

So let's talk about UVA versus UVB rays. And so I always think of UVB rays as the burning rays and people are like, Oh, well you want to block that. No, those are actually the protective rays. Tell you, okay, you're getting too much, sun. Like you need a, you need to pull back a little. And the UVA rays, which are the quote unquote, um, tanning rays are also the ones that can promote things like melanoma.

Tina: 10:32

because the melanocytes are in the dermis, and only the UVA reaches down that far. The UVB doesn't penetrate the skin as deeply, so they're more superficial, but they are, like you said, I don't know, you call them protective, I would say they're more like a sentinel. Like, you know that you're burning, because UVB causes that redness, or You know, the dry, red, and even eventually blistering of the skin that's, that's warning you that you're getting too much ultraviolet radiation.

Leah: 11:01

What did I say? Protective or preventive? Protective? Well, what I meant was that it's a, it's a warning. Yeah. protective in that it's like a tornado siren, right? It's just protecting you from what may be inevitable.

Tina: 11:16

Yeah. It's giving you some kind of idea of what's happening.

Leah: 11:19

It's the tornado siren of your skin. Okay. So I found a really interesting statistic, um, when we were prepping for this, you mentioned that there are certain countries where people are more susceptible to skin cancer, melanoma, and one of them is Australia. There was a website that talked about five blistering sunburns before the age of 18 increase your risk of skin cancer.

Tina: 11:43

Five blistering sunburns by the age of 18. I'm repeating it because I think every listener can think back to the, to their own history and ask themselves that question. Did I have blistering sunburns when I was young?

Leah: 11:56

And I, I definitely did. I remember being a little kid. We went to the beach in Southern Florida and my sister and I were playing in the water and sure enough, I had massive blisters on my back. And I can remember a few times at the pool as well. Yeah. I mean, it's not like, well, you've only had four. You're fine. You know, it's not, That cut and dry, but definitely thinking about, um, yeah, your, your history as a kid. And, you know, back then I remember like we used Coppertone, right? That was the thing that everyone used back then. And I don't remember reapplying it.

Tina: 12:35

Remember? Bando Soleil for the central bay, tan, Bando Soleil for the deep darkening tan.

Leah: 12:44

You know, the whole commercial. That's amazing. My aunt used band de soleil and I thought that was so glamorous and so elegant. I thought it was like the fancy people. Sunscreen. No, we use the white copper tone with the little puppy and the little child on the label. Yeah. No, we, we did not use bandosolate. We did use other weird things as teenagers. Um, you know, baby oil and all of that, but for sunscreen, it was always copper tone and I don't remember reapplying it. And that is a really important part.

Tina: 13:19

I remember the SPF was like two or four.

Leah: 13:22

Yeah, it was like SPF four, right? Yeah. There was no SPF 50 back then, so reapplying every two hours is really important when you come out of the water, you're supposed to reapply.

Tina: 13:32

Yes.

Leah: 13:33

If you're doing a sport where you're really perspiring a lot, reapply.

Tina: 13:38

Yeah. I think they say it on the label now every couple hours and it's even less on some of them for the, they have special sports, SPF 30 or 50 for the water, and it's supposed to be a slightly waterproof, but they do tell you when you come out to reapply,

Leah: 13:53

Yeah, I don't know if people really do that though. It's kind of like, how much do you actually apply? I think people, especially with the ones that are zinc or titanium oxide, I think people tend to apply. Less because they don't want to look like, don't know, We're going to have to put in a reference so people are, you know, people know what Spicoli. Yeah. They don't want to look like Spicoli, but the amount of sunscreen you're supposed to use for an average size person, whatever that may mean is one ounce. So we're talking a shot glass of sunscreen.

Tina: 14:28

That's a lot.

Leah: 14:29

That's a lot. And so at least a quarter of a teaspoon of that is for your face alone,

Tina: 14:35

From what you told me earlier, some of the tick tock outrage over these 30 and plus sunblockers is what they contain, like other chemical compounds, right?

Leah: 14:46

Oh yeah. So no, what the, what I saw a dermatologist was clarifying is, I think there was a big concern about sunscreens cause cancer. And a few years ago, there was a recall for a bunch of sunscreens because they had a contaminant, which was benzene. There is the oxy benzone. In a lot of sunscreens, that is one of the chemical sunscreens that protects against the UVA rays. The problem is that there was a contaminant and we will link in our show notes notes for, you know, people to look up to if they do have a sunscreen at home that they want to know if it was one of the recalls, if they didn't hear about that. And it has a whole list of them. A lot of them have already expired. Um, but there were some that didn't expire until like 2024. So. Nobody ever throws out their sunscreen. I mean, didn't, did you know that sunscreen had an expiration date?

Tina: 15:41

Uh, no.

Leah: 15:43

Yeah. So sunscreen has an expiration date. And this is something else that I thought was really fascinating is that the organic and by organic, I mean, organic chemicals, like the chemical sunscreens, the oxybenzones and the other things that I don't want to try to pronounce those. Do expire. They do degrade over time. So you do want to, if that's the one that you're using, you do want to replace those regularly, but the mineral sunblocks, the titanium dioxide in the zinc oxide, those don't expire. So there is an expiration date. Cause those are the ones that I buy. And I actually almost threw one out the other day because I was like, Oh, it's past its expiration date. And then doing research for this episode, I was like, Oh, I don't have to throw it out. It's just, you need to have an expiration date on products.

Tina: 16:27

well that makes sense because those titanium or zinc ones are actual physical blockages of the rays. So they're not going anywhere. They're metals and they're just there.

Leah: 16:39

Right. They're not sinking into your skin and creating a barrier. Right. The other thing about the mineral sunblocks is that when you go in the water. So there was a study that compared the two different kinds, the organic and the inorganic, inorganic being the mineral sunscreens that compared the two sunscreens in water as a small study, like 22 people or something, and they To see which still was, you know, more effective after an hour and a half. And the mineral sunscreens won out. So you still need to reapply it it is, it is something that stays on your body.

Tina: 17:14

Now are they both reef safe?

Leah: 17:16

The mineral sunscreens or sunblocks are, and that's a really important thing. Um, what Tina means by reef safe is there was a big movement and you said in Hawaii, there are certain sunscreens that are not allowed. And what it is, is the chemicals in these organic sunscreens, by organic I'm not meaning like the same thing as like organic food, um, again, it's just, it's a carbon based sunscreen,

Tina: 17:48

As opposed to mineral based?

Leah: 17:49

opposed to mineral based?

Tina: 17:51

Which is zinc and titanium. Okay.

Leah: 17:53

right? Yeah. No, thanks for clarifying. Um, Those can affect the fertility of fish. they can kill coral reefs. They have killed coral reefs. Um, they have been found in tissues of dolphins. I mean, the list goes on again. We could put a link for that in it. The link is through, um, NOAA, which is the, the weather people, not try to remember what NOAA stands for, National something association, oceanic,

Tina: 18:20

oceanic, Atmospheric.

Leah: 18:23

something. Anyways,

Tina: 18:26

Yeah, this consequence is really visible in Hawaii, which is why so many, I don't know if it's all the, the entire state of Hawaii, but there are definitely regions where you can, well, they encourage you, they can't stop anyone from doing anything, but they highly encourage you to put on reef safe sunscreens because it's visible. There's so many people just doing snorkeling, you know, so many visitors go in and snorkel that. Close to the shore, you can see the consequences of all the years of people going in with sunscreens that were killing the coral. And killing a lot of the, the life. So there's like dead zones almost. as opposed to if you go farther out where people aren't so heavily populating the area, you can see how lush the life is underneath. So, yeah. So it's great that they, that they did that. They finally took that step because this has been kind of an issue behind the scenes for a couple of decades, a few decades, I'm sure, since these sunscreens came out. So it's good that they're proactively. Changing what people, it's all the same. I mean, they work just as well as ones that kill the reefs. So why not save the reefs? I mean, it's not, it's kind of a no brainer.

Leah: 19:29

in Europe, they've done more testing on different types of sun filters and they do have coral reef safe, products. And so they are more expensive. You're ordering them from overseas. You're going to pay for shipping and all of that.

Tina: 19:40

And does the environmental working group have a list of safer brands?

Leah: 19:46

So yeah, the environmental working group has a cosmetic database where they list the different products and they list the ingredients and there's a different rating based on all of the ingredients. And I think it can be a little alarming to some people. Um, you'll see something that has a little green, like. Thumbs up kind of label, and it'll still say that this contains ingredients that might increase your risk of cancer or allergies or anything like that. But it's it's all just, information. It's probably at higher doses or used in another capacity that that might be a chemical or a compound that is dangerous for you. So I don't like people to think of the environmental working group. website Um, I don't see it as like a gospel, it's just more of a guide. so I'm, I'm comfortable with something that has a three rating and the three rating may not necessarily be a green rating, but I think it's safe for um, you know, just for everyday appropriate use.

Tina: 20:48

what's their scale when you say three rating on there?

Leah: 20:51

So the scale is from one to ten, one being best, ten being worst. So the, the green is One and two, and then the yellow, which is kind of the caution is the three to six. And so that's why I like I'm comfortable using something that's three or four, as long as I'm using it appropriately and I'm not going in excess and it depends on what the chemicals are. and then when you get to seven, eight, nine and ten, those are the worst.

Tina: 21:18

Okay, so I'll give you my take.'cause what we haven't talked about is just blocking the sun. So I have a, a bevy of straw hats, and I wear them, especially if I'm just working outside and I don't care what I look like. I have a nice big, broad straw hat for that. I've got a couple of what I would consider decent looking, public facing, straw hats, And then, um. I cover up. you know, you can wear long sleeves that are actually made for UV. So if you're going to be out like kayaking or something like that, cover yourself up with something light. Um, and it doesn't keep you warmer if you have the right material and it's lightweight. And then I do use the sunscreens because I am just vain enough to not really want photo aging on my face. Um, so I'll use them more on my face. And don't forget your ears Cause your ears are a common place for various skin cancers to happen. Squamous cell and basal cell as you age, especially. So the top of your nose, top of your ears and your, you know, which is called décollage,

Leah: 22:19

Well, that's your neck. But then the, what is it, décolletage, something, the upper chest.

Tina: 22:25

It's some French word we can't say. I don't know

Leah: 22:26

That's right, we can look it up, but we're not going to, um, so yeah, so, so definitely avoiding the sun, whether it's covering up or even just avoiding those prime sun hours, depending on where you live, um, usually it's like 10 a. m. to 4 p. m. Back in the day, those were the tanning hours

Tina: 22:46

Duck away for the prime tanning hours or find, yeah, just find some shade. Really?

Leah: 22:51

Just find some shade. Uh, I've seen people even carrying umbrellas, which I think is just so cool. Like carrying a parasol to protect yourself from the sun. It's a great idea. It's used to be done back in the day. Let's bring it back.

Tina: 23:04

Yeah. A true Oregonians don't own them though.

Leah: 23:06

I've seen people in the summer in Oregon, in Portland, carrying umbrellas more than I do see them using it for rain. Yeah, no, totally.

Tina: 23:14

that's true.

Leah: 23:15

Yeah. No, they're, what I don't understand are baseball caps because. I have a few baseball caps that I've gotten as gifts. they're horrible with blocking the sun. They're not about blocking the sun.

Tina: 23:27

Just for your eyes.

Leah: 23:29

Just for your eyes. What I like are, I have seen some people wearing these giant visors, you know, the visor, like, you know, the tennis

Tina: 23:36

Oh yeah.

Leah: 23:37

Chrissy Everett kind of, you know, visor thing, but they're huge. I kind of like those.

Tina: 23:43

Yeah. I wouldn't be caught dead in one

Leah: 23:45

I might, I mean, I might be caught dead or alive wearing one of them. Oh.

Tina: 23:50

That's not my look. if I do wear a ball cap out there, it's mostly because, I don't have prescriptive sunglasses, so I want to block the sun there and I'll put sunscreen on my face and neck and ears and stuff, cause I know it's not really protecting me.

Leah: 24:02

Okay. So when you say sunscreen, do you mean like the organic sunscreen or the inorganic with the zinc

Tina: 24:08

I tend to use the inorganic zinc or titanium.

Leah: 24:11

Okay. And in my training, I was always like encouraged to call those sun block because they are blocking the skin.

Tina: 24:17

Yes. yeah, it's a physical barrier to the rays.

Leah: 24:20

it's a physical barrier. another time I think that people need to be really careful with the sun is driving, because they can take pictures, to show photo aging and typically one person's like the side of their face is More aged than the other side. I see that on myself and that's the driver's side. So you're We're windows aren't protecting you from these rays and so make sure that you use an appropriate amount of the sunblock when you're driving

Tina: 24:52

Yeah. And you know, we were talking about this before we got on here and, and, the official party line out there looks to me like they talk about tanning almost as an equivalent to burning. And I think of them as two totally different things. When you get a sunburn, no matter where you get it, how you get it, whether you have sunscreen on or not, it's inflammatory. It's damaging literally, and it creates an inflammatory state in the, in the skin. And so to me, doing that repeatedly and certainly doing it at an early age. Um, and more severely, all of those things are going to be additive in your risk for various skin cancers, whether it's melanoma or basal cell or squamous cell. I think of that very different than, for example, you go out a lot and you don't burn and you tan and your skin gets darker, whatever your base you start with, um, if you are someone who does tan and can do it without burning, right? you remember that when we were young, we do that too, that everyone would go out and get a base. Burn so that the rest of the tanning was faster. Not that. I'm saying never burn. Burning is not good, but slowly increasing your pigmentation seems to be a protective thing because darker skin is more protected than lighter skin as far as Skin cancers go. It's not impossible. It's just more protected.

Leah: 26:12

Well, there are, there are people who really cannot have any sun exposure and there is a chart that again, we can put in the show notes, the link to that talks about the types of skin you know, it's based on eye color and skin color and hair color and what your exposure is. To the sun can be, and it's typically the sun, you know, unprotected and it's anywhere from five minutes to 20 minutes is what can be, you know, there are some people who can look at a picture of a sun and get a sunburn. You know, I mean, they're that sensitive. I'm being, I'm being a little silly here, but you know, they're, they are that sensitive. And so if you are, I mean, I think these people know who they are, right? They, they know how sensitive they are and they typically try to avoid the sun. Yeah. I don't recommend somebody like that going out with any, without any sort of sun protection, whether it is a sunblock or clothing and a hat.

Tina: 27:08

Yes, I think fair skinned people know who they are though. I mean they know that they burn fast

Leah: 27:13

Yeah, but you know, you get in a, you know, I think of spring break, right? Like spring break in high school and everybody came back burned. Even the fair redheads, you know, were burned to a crisp because you're outside and you're partying and you're having a great time and you're young.

Tina: 27:28

Oh yeah, yeah, so I can think of a vacation. I took with my partner and we were at the pool and there was a, a woman who was sleeping, passed out. I'm not sure, but let's just say the redness of her skin hurt to just look at it. And I was like, I got to wake her up. I got to, someone's got to tell her she's got to get out of the sun. She's just sitting there baking more and more. And I was like, oh my God, it it was going to be so painful once she was either sober or awake. I'm not sure.

Leah: 27:54

You just want to move an umbrella over her and like cover with like a wet towel,

Tina: 27:59

I was kind of glancing at the people she was with like, uh, hello, No one's doing anything.

Leah: 28:03

Oh, I remember years ago being at a pool in Vegas and, you know, you start looking at everybody and their, you know, their, their skin. I, I'm always looking at people's skin. I'm not judging. I'm just looking. And somebody had on the bottom of their foot, the scariest looking mole. And I just remember staring at that from across the pool. Maybe it was a birthmark, but I just remember thinking like, Ooh, I hope they know what that is. I hope they get that checked out.

Tina: 28:39

You know, when we talk about various regions and different skin types and stuff, we can see this in the stats, the differences in melanoma rates, especially, and New Zealand and Australia have extremely high rates of skin cancer. And there's a couple reasons. So people who are from there or live there will have higher rates of Um, various skin cancers, including melanoma, and it has to do with the fact that when they have their summer, it's actually more UV coming through to them than when the northern hemisphere has its summer. And so there's actually a higher UV. Radiation reaching the earth's surface because of the elliptical pattern and, and when the winter hits. And so I thought that was really interesting cause it's, it's like twice as much as, the United States or other European countries. And then after that, it's like like Norway and Sweden, the Netherlands, Germany, they're all much higher incident rates. And it has to do with, fairer skin in those regions.

Leah: 29:38

Fairer skin and then location on the planet. And the proximity to those rays. Um, is there anything that people can do besides wearing the clothing? Um, I think if someone has had a lot of sun exposure, you know, as always like eating antioxidant rich foods, colorful foods, really important. I remember when I was younger, this is way younger. Someone said, when you get a lot of sun exposure, you should come inside and, you should eat tomatoes. I think it was because of like the vitamin C and the antioxidants, but it was just something that I did like in my teens, you know, in early twenties is like, Oh, if you get sun exposure, just make sure you eat tomatoes. And it kind of corresponds, right? I mean, summertime tomatoes are ripe, grab a tomato. Um, I think also that, not doing things like drinking a lot of alcohol when you're out in the sun, because that's going to dehydrate your skin as well, um, you, you know, you might not necessarily reapply the sunscreen. Um, yeah, I'm just trying to think of like certain things, if there's anything I don't know if there's anything proven

Tina: 30:50

I always think of vitamin D status, the irony of this, right? People with lower vitamin D levels have, there's a higher risk factor for melanoma. So, Vitamin D deficiency is considered a risk factor. Of course, vitamin D comes from sunshine. So, this is the conundrum, right? We tell people, don't get too much sun, but get enough to get your vitamin D. And, you know, we all say 15 minutes a day. Depends a little bit on your latitude. this is why I go back to, you know, Don't let your skin get damaged. You do want some sunshine. I mean, sunshine is good for your circadian rhythm. Sunlight is one of the ways that we set our diurnal patterns in ourselves. Our, our entire body relies on Sunlight and night to know what 24 hours is. And so. We don't want to go without it. We don't want to always be in the dark. sunshine is, you know, it's an element of good health to us. I mean, it's as important as clean air. So we do want to get sunshine. We just don't want to damage our skin in the process. So that's where you have to be individual in how you treat this. Like one person can be out there two hours, no problem. Another person, 20 minutes is all they can do without, you know, risking a sunburn.

Leah: 31:58

or less, yeah, or, or, or less. And so don't, if, if someone is reading, oh, 15 minutes of unprotected sun to get my vitamin D, That might not be true for that person. It may be just five minutes, and it might not be true at all, because they might live in Oregon in the winter, where you're not gonna get any.

Tina: 32:18

Yeah. And, And, if you did, you know, burn a lot when you were young, for example, for various reasons, you wanted to get that tan and you didn't have the skin type for it, but you tried anyways, then, Know that that risk factor is already in the bank, and you want to be even more careful as you go forward, and I would say, you make an appointment with a dermatologist every once in a while, depending on your age and where you are and, you know, your access to that, but if you can get a skin check, I would say 50 years old, you get a baseline skin check, and then the dermatologist will tell you, you know, whether you're high risk, low risk, whether you should come back in, a year or six months or five years. I mean, it depends, but I think this goes in my column of like, when you turn 50 of things to take care of, give yourself a couple of years to do it. But you should have had your colonoscopy. You should have at least a baseline DEXA scan, get some blood work done. I mean, you just, if you can, if you have access to such things and you can make them happen, then I think it's important

Leah: 33:13

I, I, I would say before 50, if you have a history of a lot of burns as a child, and a lot of sun exposure, I have seen patients with melanoma who are super young, so I would say if, yeah, if you have any sort of blistering burn history, find a dermatologist, get mole checks regularly, I mean it's, you know, if you have tanning bed history, just do that.

Tina: 33:37

And do self checks too. Right. I mean, interestingly, you know, I went to the dermatologist, they don't check my nethers, you know, so you have to do some self checks too.

Leah: 33:47

Um, one thing I do want to add, which we didn't cover, um, is SPF.

Tina: 33:53

What it means.

Leah: 33:53

Yeah, so when you go to the store, you don't really see like SPF 4 so much anymore, it's always SPF 30, SPF 50, 70, 100. Are those higher numbers better? When I was a kid, I remembered learning that SPF 4 meant you could stay out in the sun four times longer. SPF 8 meant you could stay out in the sun eight times longer. That's not true. It has to do more with The, the dosage of the sun that you're getting, it's actually the minimal erythema dose, the med value that they look at, and they compare the med value of protected skin and the med value of unprotected skin. And that's how they come up with, the SPF value. and that was a big concern with some of the, um, With some of the more popular brands of sunscreen as well, is that their stated SPF value wasn't what was in the product. So the bottle said one thing that that was an issue that had come up as well. and also the issue of balance, because you want to to find something that says broad spectrum. And so it covers all the UV rays. It's not just blocking one or the other. And so that was another concern. So you know, if you're not doing the mineral ones, the mineral sun blocks, look for European sunscreens. They're supposed to be, they, they are, the EU is a lot stricter. With their regulations in terms of, safety and, like I mentioned with the coral reefs and marine life, but also making sure that their products are. what they say they are.

Tina: 35:32

Yeah. Yeah. And no matter what you use or what you do, just be cognizant of it too. I mean, just know that you're out there in the peak hours or know your own limits. I feel like each of us could be more. I used a, I used a brand that will remain unnamed that when I put it on, I swear to God, it made me burn faster. It was supposed to be a sunscreen. It was, you know, eco friendly, yada, yada, fill in the blanks. It was zinc based. I know that I felt like I put oil on myself or something. I got darker faster. I don't think it did what the label claimed it did. So I'm just saying that because no matter what you get, you know, if there's going to be false labels out there or anything like that, you probably know yourself better than anything and just don't, don't let it happen. Just wear another layer, go into the shade, put on a hat. I to me, that's more reliable. I know if you're on a boat or you're swimming, you can't do all those things. So you have to use sunscreen some of the time, but I feel like protecting yourself from the rays is going to be more reliable in the grand scheme of things.

Leah: 36:34

And I, I've been trying to do both. I mean, I think I've been pretty careless throughout the years and you know, I'm one where vanity, I mean, it's, it's, it's. It's a reality in my life and I kind of wish because I have noticed, especially living in Arizona, having the more sun damage on one side of my face. I wish I was more diligent. I use like the makeup like BB creams and moisturizers that have sunscreen in them, but you're not applying enough of it in order to actually make it effective. I now have like a stick. It looks like a little tiny deodorant stick and it's really thick and I apply that. I don't care if my face is two shades whiter than the rest of my, you know, my face, ears and neck. I don't care. I'm at the age where I just don't care. Um, and I know that's not going to work for everybody, because I am a type 3 skin, and so I do have lighter skin.

Tina: 37:28

Wait, what's type three skin? That

Leah: 37:31

so, you want to go through the types? Okay. So the types are, type 1 skin is, it's very light skin. It often has freckles, um, usually the person has reddish or strawberry blonde hair. Their eyes are very light, blue or gray. type two skin is light skin, freckles, blonde or brown hair. Eye colors can be anything. Type three skin is light or light brown skin, rarely with freckles, dark blonde or brown hair, gray or brown eyes.

Tina: 38:03

sounds like me. Wait, was that three?

Leah: 38:05

No, that's three. I think you're four.

Tina: 38:07

okay.

Leah: 38:08

Four is light brown or olive colored skin, no freckles, dark brown hair, brown or dark brown eyes. I think that's you. Um, type five is dark brown skin, dark brown or black hair, and dark brown eyes. And then type six is dark brown or black skin, black hair and dark brown eyes. So a big problem with these mineral. Inorganic sunblocks is the darker the complexion, the more obvious it is. Some of the products do eventually sink into your skin, but, um, there are mineral based sunblocks that are. Made specifically for darker complexions. And so I'll try to look some up. People probably know this better than I do. I'm just going to look and see what is recommended by, dermatologists on the webs. But if you know a product, then comment. Let me know what your favorite product is. Because not everybody wants to look like Spicoli.

Tina: 39:12

No, that's, that's helpful because those skin types are what I'm talking about when I say we each need to know our own, limits to our sun exposure. And that's your skin type will, have a lot to do with how much you can be exposed, if at all, to sunshine before you get sun damage.

Leah: 39:27

And I think, I mean, I don't have the statistics in front of me, but I think people think that, oh, I naturally have a darker complexion, that I don't need this, this sun protection. And you do. I think the statistic for melanoma is like one in a thousand. For somebody with black skin, that's still a lot of people, you know, I mean, it sounds like, oh, well, that's not so bad, but that still is a lot of people. And, and somebody has got to be that one. So it's better to be safe. And don't think that just because you're dark, darker complexion, that it's necessarily going to, um, protect you. So make sure you're wearing that big broad hat, make sure you're, you know, wearing the long sleeve clothing and avoiding sun during those hours.

Tina: 40:09

Yeah, and you know how I opened this with the fact that there is more incidence of melanoma in Oregon than Texas? But, people are more likely to die of melanoma in Texas than in Oregon. Mm hmm.

Leah: 40:21

What

Tina: 40:22

Mortality rates are higher from melanoma in Texas than they are in Oregon, even though the incidence is higher in Oregon. So What that tells you, it's, it's, it's caught early here

Leah: 40:32

I was going to say this detection. Yeah.

Tina: 40:33

yes, that has to do with early detection because I think right now for stage one melanoma, 94 point something percent have no recurrence after five years. So it's a, it's a pretty solid statistic and, and if it's let go to later stages, then those percentages go down significantly. So, yeah, so that's why we're into screening, of course, right? This is why we talk about it, you and I, is making sure that you do self checks and, uh, if you see anything change in a mole or a new mole come up or a sensation that's new, that suddenly itches and it never did before, always get it checked out. It doesn't hurt.

Leah: 41:08

Um, and lotions actually are apparently the better form to use. So I don't know about my waxy stick, but, lotions are better than the sprays. And I have found a product that is a mineral based spray. And with minerals, you want to make sure that it's not the nano minerals, because the nano minerals are also harmful to the marine life.

Tina: 41:30

Well, and I think they're small enough to absorb.

Leah: 41:32

Well, there you go.

Tina: 41:33

I don't really want the titanium being absorbed. You know, it's just not one of those things I want much of. Zinc? All right. I can probably get over that one. But

Leah: 41:42

I think, I think they're more appealing because they'll sink in more and you know, you're not having the, the, the little glow, but I think of it as a base layer and then I put my tinted moisturizer on top it doesn't actually increase your protection by using like 30 sunblock and then putting a 30, moisturizer on top of that. That it's not added.

Tina: 42:02

it doesn't, it doesn't give you 60, 30 plus 30.

Leah: 42:04

It's not additive. No, unfortunately. And I just want to add one more thing. If you are going through chemotherapy, immunotherapy, check and see if even being in the sun is safe.

Tina: 42:17

Yes. And that's true of a lot of medications. Actually, there's a lot of medications that make you photosensitive. And

Leah: 42:23

Yeah, because that, that, that is a big thing that can make you more, more sensitive to the sun and you can get a bad burn.

Tina: 42:30

Yeah, nothing will protect you except shade.

Leah: 42:33

Make sure you check out the episode we did on vitamin D. We'll put a link to that in the show notes. And, um, yeah, if you have any questions about anything that we've talked about, then, yeah. Definitely drop us a note. You can email us at the cancer pod at gmail. com. You can go to our website and there is a place where you can click on a little button, you'll see it off to the right side of the screen and you can record us a message, yeah.

Tina: 43:03

Yeah, record a message that we can play on the air. That would be fun

Leah: 43:05

No, one's recorded us a message. we do get we get messages through our website.

Tina: 43:11

Yes, no audio.

Leah: 43:13

No audio yet.

Tina: 43:14

Maybe everyone listening is an introvert. They don't want to be aired.

Leah: 43:18

listening whoever's listening right now, go to the website, thecancerpod. com. Find the little microphone, on the right hand side, click on it and leave us a message. Say hi. I was listening to your episode. I'm leaving you a message. That's all you have to do. Or you could say, disagree with everything you said,

Tina: 43:40

But I still listened to the end and heard this

Leah: 43:42

but I listened all the way through.

Tina: 43:45

So here I am.

Leah: 43:47

On that note, I'm Dr. Leah Sherman,

Tina: 43:49

And I'm Dr. Tina Kaeser.

Leah: 43:51

and this is the Cancer Pod.

Tina: 43:52

Until next time.

Leah: 44:26

That'll do, pig.

Tina: 44:29

It'll do.