The Cancer Pod: Integrative Medicine Talk
Join Tina and Leah, two naturopathic physicians with lots of experience in natural medicine and cancer care. Leah is the ”cancer insider.“ Tina is the science-y one. Listen in and join us as we talk with each other or respected experts in integrative oncology. Whether it is you or a loved one, whether you are in treatment or beyond, you'll find helpful info, tips, and tricks to get through tough times. We frame things around cancer, but honestly, anyone can benefit. So, tune in, join our community of like-minded folks, and please let us know what you think!
Disclaimer: This podcast is for education, entertainment, and informational purposes only. Do not apply any of this information without first speaking to your doctor. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the hosts and their guests are solely their own.
The Cancer Pod: Integrative Medicine Talk
Faking Cancer: Amanda, Belle, and Elisabeth...the Fakers
In this episode, Dr. Tina Kaczor and Dr. Leah Sherman discuss notorious cancer fakers Belle Gibson (Apple Cider Vinegar), Amanda Riley (Scamanda), and Elizabeth Finch (Anatomy of Lies). Each one created elaborate schemes that often duped even their loved ones. The hosts examine the psychological aspects behind such behavior, revealing how these individuals exploited vulnerable people’s emotions and trust. They also discuss distinguishing between factual integrative cancer care (Hello! That’s us!) and harmful misinformation (like the fakers here, for example). The episode emphasizes the need for critical evaluation of health claims, especially in the age of social media.
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Leah, I am incredulous about these fakers and frauds in cancer care. Like that. They would even go there and pretend to have cancer is mind blowing.
Leah:But the lengths that they go through, like pretending to have a port and pretending to be getting, you know, like posting pictures getting infusions, like it's crazy. Shaving their heads.
Tina:Yeah, one of them, Scamanda, Amanda, when they ask her, good friend when did you finally realize that she was faking, her answer was not until she pleaded guilty in court, because of pictures of her getting IVs and nurses in the background and
Leah:Oh, and like friends and family would take them to treatment. I mean, sometimes they wouldn't let them in. while they were getting treatment, they just like drop'em off at the, at the hospital. But still, no, it just,
Tina:it's diabolical.
Leah:absolutely. And so what we did, dear listener, is we looked into, we watched the stories of three pretty famous cancer fakers, cancer frauds,
Tina:infamous,
Leah:infamous. Much better. Yes. So they're known in, in the cancer world. And I mean, every time I would think like, oh my God, this is like so surprising. This is so shocking. Then I'd watch another story and I was like, how did, what the heck? it just like kept like, it's crazy. And, and there are more people than just the three that we're talking about. Um, we're gonna talk about Belle Gibson, Amanda Riley, and Elizabeth Finch.
Tina:Apple Cider Vinegar, Scamanda, and Anatomy of Lies, in that order,
Leah:Yeah.
Tina:I'm gonna say something right up front. apple cider vinegar, I couldn't even get through the first episode.
Leah:oh, I didn't either. Um, but we both watched the 60 Minutes Australia interview with her, so.
Tina:Yes, and I watched an actual documentary that was separate.'cause apple cider vinegar is a docudrama at best.
Leah:Right. Um, but it's, it's not even, I mean, it, it's not even a docu, I mean, it's, it's a fictional, it's, yeah, it's a fictional account because. Yeah, I started looking into some of the characters and I realized that they were kind of amalgams that there's this one character Mila, and I wanted to know more about her. And she was, yeah. So anyways, so yeah, we did not actually finish apple cider vinegar, but it makes sense because we were just kind of doing more of the documentary stuff.
Tina:Yeah, I, when I realized it was fictional, I didn't wanna confuse my brain with fictional accounts and actual facts.
Leah:Yeah, exactly..
Tina:So I just put it aside.
Leah:me too. Me too. And I probably will go back and watch it, but I didn't wanna confuse reality with,
Tina:Oh, that's funny. We did the same thing. We both did it for the same
Leah:yeah, no, I just didn't want to onfuse reality with fiction, but the whole thing is like fictitious.
Tina:You would think that all of it is fiction, but it actually happened. All these people did just outrageously devious, fraudulent. Fake cancers for their own benefit.
Leah:Okay, so before we get into if you like listening to our podcast, if you enjoy the cancer pod, then make sure you share it with your friends and family.
Tina:Yeah, and we do have a membership now, so if you wanna get to know us a little bit better, we do live Q and A's on YouTube. Either quarterly or monthly or annually, depending on what membership level you wanna join us at. And then we have membership exclusives as well. you can find the link for that, in our show notes or through our website. It's through buy me a coffee. So if you just wanna buy us a coffee, you can do that as well. And if you wanna buy us a coffee every month, then. Join the membership. Yes, you may as well. It's only$3 a month. Yeah. At the base level. if you have any questions about anything we talk about, you can leave us a voice message on our website. It's like a little voicemail or email us questions and comments at the cancer pod@gmail.com. With that, let's get started
Tina (2):I'm Dr. Tina Kaczor, and as Leia likes to say, I'm the science y one.
Leah:And I'm Dr. Leah Sherman, and I'm the cancer insider.
Tina (2):And we're two naturopathic doctors who practice integrative cancer care.
Leah:But we're not your doctors.
Tina (2):This is for education, entertainment, and informational purposes only.
Leah:Do not apply any of this information without first speaking to your doctor.
Tina (2):The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the hosts and their guests are solely their own.
Leah:Welcome to the Cancer Pod. okay, first of all, just faking cancer in general is kind of,
Tina:A symptom of a mental illness.
Leah:yeah. And so one of the things that they talked about in, uh, I think a few of the, the things that we watched was, factitious disorder, which is the new name for, um, Munchhausen.
Tina:Yes.
Leah:Munchausen syndrome. And now there's something known as Munchausen by internet, which I'm like,
Tina:Yes.'cause there's always been Munchausen by proxy
Leah:which is when like a parent will do things to cause like a child or a spouse, you know,
Tina:to be sick.
Leah:Where one person does that to the other, and there's always been Munchausen where a person fakes their own illness, but now there's Munchausen by internet'cause you're bringing Instagram and everything else into it.
Tina:Yeah, let me just, I'm gonna read off Mayo Clinic's website. This link that you gave me actually in our notes. The symptoms of fictitious disorder involve people trying to look ill, making themselves ill or hurting themselves. May also fake symptoms, make symptoms seem worse than they are, or pretend they can't do certain things because of their symptoms, so they can deceive others. People with a condition work hard to hide their lies. It may be hard to know that their symptoms are part of a serious mental health condition. People with this disorder continue with the lies even without any benefit or reward, or when faced with evidence that it doesn't support their claims. Wow. So it's a mental disorder.
Leah:Yes. And I guess on some of the, the things that we watched, they were kind of asking people, you know, like, why would, why would this happen? Why would you do this? And, you know, there's some thought that it might be due to a history of neglect.
Tina:Hmm. Okay. You know what? I didn't look into anything that was remotely, um, empathetic towards these characters. I'll admit, I do realize it's a mental disorder, and that's probably as far as I need to go in my mind. Like, okay, well there's reasons for that. So I'm a little unforgiving because it's so hideous. Their crimes.
Leah:I'm just curious as to like, how does a person become.
Tina:Yeah.
Leah:Like, I mean, just faking, you know, there's always like a hypochondriac, someone who thinks every, you know, every little symptom they're having is, a much bigger, um, illness or whatever, or, you know, every sniffle sneeze is something. but yeah, this is like next level. This is just.
Tina:It's next level because it's not just deception, it's exploitation. So now they each, in, each of these in some way, they're exploiting the empathy they get from other people for either professional or monetary gain.
Leah:Right. And that's, that's what I was gonna say next, is that two of them at least, were making money from. Like directly making money. I mean, I think Elizabeth Finch was also making money, but that was through her getting employment because of what she was saying was going on.
Tina:Elizabeth Finch, who was an acclaimed writer for Grey's Anatomy, right? She wrote. Award-winning episodes. That one blew my mind.
Leah:Well, and before she wrote for Grey's Anatomy, she wrote For True Blood, which was like one of my favorite series.
Tina:Oh, really?
Leah:And then she wrote for Vampire Diaries, which I never watch, but um, yeah, the whole Grey's Anatomy thing. Well, because hers was like beyond cancer. Like she did claim that she was diagnosed in like 2012 with a, chondro sarcoma, which is. Unusual for someone of her age to be diagnosed with that. And I couldn't figure out, Like she had, she claimed it was in her leg, but then it was also in her spine. It was, it was a little hard to fall, like for me, it was hard to follow exactly like what her diagnosis was. Um, but she went beyond the cancer diagnosis. Like she, she faked, you know, she had she had pictures of like something covering her port, you know, she would wear a scarf on her head. She would go to these writer's meetings'cause she was you know, a writer on this TV show and she'd leave to, to get sick. She'd, I mean it just like that in itself was like crazy that she was faking all that. She also flew to was it Mayo or something and had someone go with her and drop her off she would go in and then come back out. Like she had her friend wait in the parking lot. I don't know.
Tina:Yes. Yes she did. She had a friend from way back from Kansas or something, go with her to the Mayo Clinic, but she insisted she not come in and when she did come in,'cause her friend's like, well, I can't sit here on the parking garage all day. She kind of wandered in to be. A good friend and go support her, and she got livid and she basically ripped her a new one and then she's like, okay, okay. I won't come in
Leah:Yeah, it, but just like thinking that was faking it. But she also faked other things. Like she would take aspects of other people's lives and then adopt them and then turn those into like episodes. Yeah.
Tina:Episode of Grey's Anatomy based on a conversation, a private conversation with someone who thought she was, you know, confiding in a good friend oh, that's craziness. Crazy. I.
Leah:hers was like, I mean, they're all next level, but hers was like beyond cancer. Like she had the cancer. It was her like backstory and then she just kept going from there.
Tina:Yeah, the cancer diagnosis was her way to manipulate people and to get them to look the other way and give her a lot of grace. Right? Like, oh, I'm sick. Oh, I have to go away. Oh, and even the one whose story she. Basically used to create an award-winning episode based on this woman's tragic events in her own life. Even then, that person was giving her some grace because she's like, you know this poor person who's going through treatment and is always sick, and it was just a way to manipulate people.
Leah:Yeah.
Tina:Yeah. That's why I call it diabolical. There, every one of them exploited people's emotions.
Leah:Yeah, absolutely. well, okay, so let's, let's go back to, let's go back to the beginning. And the beginning isn't really the beginning.'cause I'm sure there were people who faked cancer before then, but the one who really became renowned was Belle Gibson.
Tina:Belle Gibson.
Leah:Yeah. And so, you know, and. With all of these, I start to wonder when they talk about like, their cancer spreading, I'm like, like, like, is that how this cancer works? Like,
Tina:What do you mean
Leah:well, like, like they, I don't know. I, okay, so let's start with Belle Gibson. What, what her cancer was, what was her, uh,
Tina:brain?
Leah:yeah, like a glioblastoma or
Tina:Yes. She claimed to have a brain tumor. And she claimed to have refused the conventional treatment'cause it made her too sick. So she turned to juicing and diet and lifestyle to cure herself. That was her claim.
Leah:Right, because she was given initially like four months to live.
Tina:That was her claim. Yes.
Leah:That was her claim.
Tina:None of this is true.
Leah:No, no.
Tina:Let's remember this. The whole episode was on fakes and frauds. So anything we say about these people is what they, what they said.
Leah:Right. And I, I think a lot of our listeners, or you know, a fair number of our listeners have probably watched Apple cider vinegar just because it is such an intriguing story. Um, okay, so this is the thing where I thought it was. A little off is that apparently in a 2014 Instagram post, um, Belle had said that her cancer spread to her brain, cancer spread to her blood, spleen, brain uterus, and liver.
Tina:Yes, this is Anyone within oncology would recognize that as, huh?
Leah:Exactly.
Tina:But a lot of time people misunderstand what's going on in their own body or they hear it differently. And so I'll be honest, I probably, if someone said that to me, I'd probably think to myself, oh, she must have had some kind of metastatic cancer to her brain in the first place. She probably started with another type of cancer that had spread to her brain in the first, it wasn't glioblastoma, which would explain. You know how it would spread.'cause glioblastoma doesn't usually leave the brain. I mean, it would be a very, very rare case,
Leah:Right. Yeah. So, so, yeah. But I, but I found that with each one of them, like
Tina:red flags.
Leah:little red flags. Yeah. Which,
Tina:But you know, the thing about red flags is that they're so easy to see in retrospect, aren't they?
Leah:But what I don't understand with Val Gibson, I mean she really marketed herself. Like she came out with a book, an app, um, she was awarded from Cosmopolitan Magazine, like some award,
Tina:Yeah.
Leah:she was on all the shows
Tina:Yeah. Talk about all in on a lie. Wow.
Leah:in a lie and like really like. I think someone had uh, pointed out in something I was watching about her that she really knew how to market herself.
Tina:Well, yeah. And that app on Apple, I didn't realize this, but Apple said, we're gonna make your app the first Innate health app on our new watch. And so she, she was like really, really prominent, like crazy prominent.
Leah:Oh yeah.
Tina:I think over a million followers, 2.3 million followers or something ridiculous on Instagram. I don't remember crazy
Speaker 3:stuff.
Leah:And this is like, you know, like early Instagram, early-ish, so.
Tina:Yes, this was incredible. You know, there's a Seinfeld episode where, um, Jerry Seinfeld's trying to figure out how to, how to lie. He can't lie very well. George Costanza, his best friend, for those who didn't watch the show, is a very good liar. And he's trying to, he's like, how do you do it? How do you do it? He's like, I can't impart this. It's just, you're either good editor or you're not. And then just as he's leaving the diner, he turns around and he says, remember Jerry, it's not a lie if you believe it. That's it. That's like all these people I think are delusional. I think they believe in some way, shape, or form in their brains. They believe what they're saying, which allows them to continue the deception.
Leah:watching that 60 minutes interview with Bell Gibson, like, she would not admit, she was like so in it, she was not going to say Yes, I lied. I.
Tina:No, and I, I came across some, I don't know, YouTube thing of CIA or FBI guy saying how to, how to see a sociopath. And it had to do with people not having lines on their face because normal people have expressions. And I kept thinking about it in that 60 minutes interview. I was like, look at her face. She doesn't have a line on it. Like there's nothing on her forehead. I know she's 20 something years old in the video, so there's that. But even 20 somethings have something you can see that they have had, they've had expressions on their face before. She looked like she looked like porcelain, you know, her skin. It was incredible. So,
Leah:that's'cause she was following everything in her book, I'm
Tina:oh, right. That's right.
Leah:she claimed to cure her own cancer with, she claimed she used Gersen therapy, natural medicine and whole food. And so her book was The Whole Pantry, which was all these recipes on, on cooking with Whole Foods.
Tina:Yeah, and I wanna say, you know. It's unfortunate that these things happen and I, I probably won't, I dunno if I'll ever watch apple cider vinegar. It was really hard for me just to watch half the first episode. But, if I ever do, it's, it's kind of a black eye on the entire wellness industry to have these people out there making up stuff. Right. Or even an integrative oncology. I mean,'cause there's plenty of evidence-based integrative oncology that people should institute for their own wellbeing. But it's hard because people kind of think they have to go all in one side or the other. Instead of saying, okay, wait, what parts of this makes sense? What parts are evidenced? How do I, you know, keep my immune system as, healthy as possible? What diet and lifestyle actually makes sense? So. I just don't want people to think that everything is a bunch of bunk. There is plenty of things that people can do that are helpful.
Leah:Right. But I do think that especially with TikTok and Instagram reels and all of that, you know. With the popularity of social media, I mean, the whole wellness industry, it's, it's hard for people to know what's for real, what isn't. You know, there are people who are these fruitarians, you know, they claim to just eat like giant bowls of fruit. I think one of the influencers who, her big thing was that she was a fruitarian. She died recently. Like, I mean, they're just, anyone can claim to. Be an expert, you know? And, and there are people who have had cancer, who truly had cancer, who then go into the wellness, industry, hoping to help others, but maybe don't have the training. So they're just like, well, this worked for me, so it's gonna work for you. but not having the science behind it. So, I mean, it's just, it's, it's really hard because I think for like the average person to know. Is this legit or not? And then, you know, like as, as cancer people, like we were empathetic to someone who's going through what we went through, you know, and when they're just posting their lives and, you know, you just become so, engrossed and like, what's going on. because you can relate to, parts of it and then it just turns out to be a lie. Like, I still wanna know, like. Okay. So, Elizabeth Finch, her wife, who was a nurse, realized that these things were fake. I mean, besides the fact that like her life was being stolen and put on, on tv, but she realized that fiche, as they call her, didn't have a port scar
Tina:Yes. And as a nurse,
Leah:as a nurse. Like, I mean.
Tina:she finally realized
Leah:She finally realized,'cause she saw pictures of, you know, bandages over a port, which in itself I thought was kind of weird because you get a bandage over your port when it's first placed and then, or this is my experience. And then after that, you just get, um, like a bandaid, like after your port's accessed, you just get a bandaid. You don't get like some giant thing covering it. that's like. You know, gauze or whatever. you get those, what, I forgot what they're called. The, is it Tega germs?
Tina:Yeah, like a Tegaderm.
Leah:yeah. You can get that, but you still see it, you know? So, so that in itself was like, that's how she, I mean, she realized like, oh my God, she doesn't, she had a port, but she doesn't have a scar.
Tina:and then she looked back on her postings and social history and was like putting dates together where fin, she said one thing, she was supposed to be in one place and she was in another.
Leah:And that wasn't even cancer related,
Tina:All I could think when her wife, who is a nurse, didn't. Put all the pieces together. All I could think to myself is how love is blind, how, how much there is a suspension of disbelief for that whole thing to happen.
Leah:Yeah, but she, she also met her wife during a very like. Traumatic time. I can't remember her wife's name, but, um, they met at Sierra Tucson, which is a rehab facility, north of Tucson, Arizona. And
Tina:It's rehab and mental health, isn't it? You don't have to be an addict to go there.
Leah:No, no, you, you don't, you know, because they also treat people with eating disorders and trauma. And so it was a, it was part of a trauma group and you know, she had, she was. Traumatized by her husband, her then husband, and had disassociated. And then I don't know if she like, I guess self-admitted or if someone admitted her to Sierra Tucson. But anyway, so she was very, very vulnerable
Tina:yes.
Leah:when they met. and so I kind of give her that, you know, she wasn't in a place she was fearing for her life because of her, her then husband, you know, just it.
Tina:right.
Leah:She had a lot going on.
Tina:She had a lot going on in her, her kids were at risk of being taken away from her and with her very, you know, scary looking husband, who was abusive.
Leah:Yeah. Sending her threatening messages and just really so I could see how. Finding someone who was very attentive and very affectionate and you know, everything that, you know, fiche portrayed herself to be, just kind of falling for
Tina:sure. Yes.
Leah:that they're saying. But yeah, once your story starts being used as an episode, it just, oh man,
Tina:I, I've never watched Grey's Anatomy, which is interesting. I've never actually seen the show.
Leah:oh really?
Tina:Mm-hmm. I mean, I know of it. It's been around for 20 years, hasn't it? 20 plus years, but I've never actually watched it.
Leah:Oh, I watched it initially and then it just kind of like, like all of those shows, it just starts to kind of go off. I don't know. There was one where like one of the doctors, she, I don't know, it was like, I can't even remember what it was, but there was one episode where I was like, okay, it jumped the shark. I'm done. Like, it just was like so outrageous. But um. I felt the same with ER was kind of that way too, where er just, you have helicopters crashing into hospitals, and then you just, just, it gets a little, like,
Tina:yeah.
Leah:they just try to make'em next level. Okay. So, um,
Tina:Speaking of taking advantage of vulnerabilities and trust. Can we move on to Amanda Riley,
Leah:yeah. So Amanda,
Tina:Scamanda,
Leah:She is, uh, featured in the, the series, the limited series Scamanda.
Tina:and the podcast, which
Leah:Oh,
Tina:birth to the limited series.
Leah:that's right. The podcast came first. Um, she claimed to have stage four Hodgkin's lymphoma. the series is, well, it's like a, b, c news or something. And so it's very, like, it repeats itself each episode. It's kind of.
Tina:It's like Night Nightline 2020 where they drag it out a bit.
Leah:Yeah. It didn't have to be that long. But, um, yeah, they really emphasized that she was, you know, a member of this church and she just was deceiving, all these people in her church. That one woman who was like, I was an atheist. And then my friend brought me to the church and then I like, you know, saw Amanda and her story and. Then she joins the church.
Tina:She literally says in court when it all. When the shit hits the fan, she says in court, you are The reason I first prayed to God about Amanda for her cancer. That's how much empathy, she drew out of people and how manipulative she was with people's emotions Okay. The scenes, there's scenes in this, in this where, I know it's fictitious, but it's, it's like that's exactly what happened where she's on stage. There's one thing that's real with her on stage where she says some line that is just like, oh my God, the level of exploitation where she says something like, and I think it's considered her giving testimony, right? Don't ignore Jesus because he is there. It would be something like tragic or something if he brought you your miracle and you weren't paying attention
Leah:Oh, they played that over and over.
Tina:at least five times.
Leah:Oh yeah.
Tina:But that was basically the basis of her exploiting that church and people were just literally throwing money at her. Like, okay, we'll keep supporting you. We'll keep supporting you. And when they came to the church, the church was gonna defend her at first because it's ludicrous to think one of their members would fake cancer.
Leah:Oh, and that one friend of hers had given her like tens of thousands of dollars.
Tina:She's the one that didn't really believe it until Amanda pleaded guilty in court.
Leah:Crazy, crazy.
Tina:Okay. Her deception and her exploitation started in 2012 and didn't end until 2019. She had seven years of raising money. On behalf of her care. She, she filed bankruptcy, or she claimed to have filed bankruptcy, which she did. She, she actually put the paperwork in, which was the mistake because her crime that they finally convicted her of was fraud.
Leah:Wire fraud. Yeah.
Tina:wire fraud and a fake bankruptcy charge. Um, so yeah, even, even after they came after her for wire fraud, she still claimed to have cancer. And still the day after that she was put out a, post to raise money and awareness of a leukemia day or something.
Leah:Oh, okay. And so the part where, again, like I said, like they're like little bits of their stories where you're just kind of like, if you have any, you know, knowledge. Of cancer, you're kind of like, huh, that's a little weird. Um, that clinical trial that she was allegedly on, like through Columbia University, she was told that she could self administer Keytruda at home.
Tina:Right, right. Red flag. Red flag.
Leah:Red flag.
Tina:Yeah.
Leah:Oh my gosh. And then like, and then the photograph, like, like all of the medical equipment and like, again, the photograph of like, you know, she's got her port and you know, she's hooked up to oxygen or, you know, and she's got, um, you know, infusion. Yeah, she, so she had a port, but then she also was getting infusions in her arm. I don't know. I mean, the whole thing was like.
Tina:Yeah, and hers is, she did eventually get arrested. And spent jail time.
Leah:Yeah.
Tina:gonna get out pretty soon, I think. Um, on good behavior. She was sentenced to a lengthy amount of time.
Leah:60 months. 60 months. Yeah.
Tina:Um, her husband who clearly had to be part of this'cause it was seven years and she had IV equipment in the house and taking pictures obviously of her in a scarf or whatever, whatever she's making up that day. Lots of pictures online. Very convincing. I mean, to the point where when you and I brought this up, you were like, wait a second, it, this looks legit.'cause she looks, you know, she's got an IV in a, she's in an IV room, but she did a spectacular job of getting herself in the hospital. Then taking a bunch of pictures.
Leah:And I don't know if it, like, it wasn't so much like she looks legit. I was, I'm just more like, how do you pull that off? I mean, you know, she would get. Medical equipment, which I suppose now you could order, you know, through Amazon. Um, but there was an article that kind of talked about how she could have faked it.
Tina:she got herself through the eR and got herself admitted for
Leah:Something else.
Tina:pain or whatever.
Leah:Yeah. Yeah.
Tina:Something you couldn't see, and then she'd get her workup. they put her in overnight and, uh, yeah, she would just take advantage of the bed in the setting. And her husband had to know about it.
Leah:Absolutely.
Tina:There's no charges against him. They're now divorced. and she claims her siblings, which I believe her brother probably did not know about it. Her mother, whose name is Peggy. It was a little more suspect, I mean. She claims to have gone with her to all these appointments while she was seeing doctors over the years. Hard to believe that her mother wasn't someone involved, but there's no proof of it, so,
Leah:Yeah. I mean, how do you go to doctor's appointments? When someone doesn't have cancer and sit there and your take home message is, okay, they have cancer. I really liked the detective in Scamanda,
Tina:Mm-hmm.
Leah:private Detective Martinez. I really liked him.
Speaker 3:Wasn't he the, he was the, the, no, he wasn't a pi, was he? He was a, um,
Leah:was he, was he an actual police officer at the time? Oh, now he's a pi.
Tina:yeah, yeah. I think so. But
Leah:Well, anyways, I, yeah, so. He discovered that fake letter from the doctor.
Tina:Mm-hmm.
Leah:Like there was a letter that I guess was altered and then he like, whatever, I like these connections that, you know, to like my life.'cause then I'm like, oh wow. So, um, she had said that she was like a patient at City of Hope
Tina:Mm-hmm.
Leah:and you know, they can't say whether or not, you know. They can't give a lot of information. They're patients.
Tina:because of HIPAA laws? Mm-hmm.
Leah:Yeah. But apparently he found out that she was never a City of Hope patient.
Tina:Well, they could say that because she wasn't a patient, so they weren't protecting any patient. Privacy because they could say that. They could say, well, she hasn't been here.
Leah:So had she been a patient they had, they would have to say, we can't say,
Tina:Exactly.
Leah:but yeah. So, and he had talked about like what. Her disorder is like an extreme form of narcissism.
Tina:Interesting. so Scamanda is a little confusing in that Amanda was the nanny and teacher of. A couple's child who had cancer, that couple they end up divorcing. That's Corey and his wife, whose name is Alida. His wife's name's Alida. So Alida and Corey are married. They have a child with cancer whose name is Jamie. Jamie needs someone to both teach her at home as well as oversee her like a nanny. And Amanda gets hired to do this and Jamie has cancer.
Leah:Like legit. Yeah. Legitimately.
Tina:Legitimately this child has cancer. So that's how it all starts. Fast forward a few years, Corey divorces, Alida marries Amanda. right.
Leah:Red flag
Tina:Hello. And so this Jamie person,
Leah:the child.
Tina:the child who grows up, she's also interviewed in Scamanda. I find her to be one of the more compelling characters because she's. Very mature and she's talking about her perspective from a child's perspective, watching all of this unfold. Her mother and her stepmother, who clearly are arch enemies in real life.
Leah:Well, they were trying to take her away. I mean, they did. They did. Like, they were like saying that Alita was like an unfit mother, and yeah, they took.
Tina:Yeah. So there's a whole lot of drama in Scamanda that is not even cancer related. I was incredulous about This is just like not a good person. I mean,
Leah:Not good people. Corey, either. I mean, yeah,
Tina:Incredible. And there was another, there's a, there's another child that was not in there. she opted outta the whole thing.
Leah:that was their child. That was, uh, Corey and Amanda's child.
Speaker 3:Her name's Jessa. Yeah.
Tina:And Jessa opted out, which I don't blame her. That, you know, that's one of those where I, you know, I'd probably just change my name and try to get some help.'cause that can't be a normal household. You think your mother's dying of cancer because she duped the children as well. The kids thought she had cancer. At some point along the way, she says to them, I might need bone marrow from one or two of you. I mean, this is craziness.
Leah:Was she the one who said that when she became pregnant that the cancer, yeah, she's the one who said that when she became pregnant, the cancer went into remission.
Tina:Yes.
Leah:Red flag.
Tina:Yeah. Although it's not unheard of. You can find rare cases of that. I can think of a cervical cancer case that was published.
Leah:But Hodgkin's Lymphoma,
Tina:Oh, yeah. I mean, but I'm just saying like, you know, you, you, you do have a hybrid immune system at that moment.'cause the fetus and you are sharing a. An immune system that's new to you, so it's not like crazy. As crazy as some of the other things she said.
Leah:I know, but it's just like, well, like what a, like, random thing to say, like, I don't know.
Tina:yeah. I'm with you.
Leah:I wanna kind of see all their notes. Like where, like where did they do their research?
Tina:Oh, I think it's all in their head. That's why they would make mistakes eventually.
Leah:Yeah, but I think the one who made the least mistakes was Elizabeth Finch,
Tina:Yeah. Maybe she had the best rote memory.
Leah:or she was a writer, so she knew how to research. The, the Condrosarcoma part was, to me, the weirdest part because it is typically in, um, older patients. And then like, yeah, there were the weird things where she, like, she apparently went through some clinical trial and was the only person who survived the clinical trial. Um. Yeah.
Tina:Oh, what a horrible web we weave when first we practiced to deceive. I guess I didn't learn that lesson.
Leah:Yeah. So anything else we wanna bring up about, about these? We'll have links to all of the shows in our, in our notes.
Tina:It's unfortunate because we live in a world where fact and fiction. Are often colliding right in, in real life. And we're not sure what's news, what's information, what's disinformation, what's misinformation, what the hell's the difference between those three things all the time. And, um, this whole taking advantage of vulnerable people and, and their empathy and just it's so next level evil, whether it's for money or career gain or it's just simply a mental illness and they're narcissists and they just like to be the center of attention. Whatever it is, it's really another unpleasantry to this whole, kind of world of, what do we call them, alternative facts.
Leah:And especially because there were people who actually had cancer, who got tied up in their, their webs of lies. Like, you know, you know, like the little boy in, bell Gibson story who actually had brain cancer and she had promised like all this money and never came through with that. Um, and then in. Amanda Riley's story, you know, Jamie who initially had cancer and then didn't, but just like exploit, like exploiting people who actually have cancer. and Amanda would do these I don't know if it was the leukemia, lymphoma events, where there are people who actually have cancer, who are involved and you know, just
Tina:Yeah.
Leah:that's just.
Tina:Yeah, yeah, the money is bad enough, but there's real people getting hurt in in the end.
Leah:And Bell Gibson, like one of the stories, at least in apple cider vinegar, and I know it was partially based on truth, is, um, that woman that we probably both saw in the first episode and that was it. but like her. Husband was a journalist and she started following more natural treatments because she became a follower of Bell Gibson. And, you know, she was diagnosed with breast cancer and decided to do natural things. And so like, I mean, it, it affected people more than their wallet.
Tina:Yes.
Leah:Like it affected people's lives, people and who knows how many people out there. Really bought into Bell Gibson and said they weren't gonna do treatment, and they bought her book and just, yeah, it's horrible.
Tina:Yeah, so the, the Bell Gibson store that I did start watching is on Netflix called The Search for Instagram's Worst Con Artist. And that is on her, but it's an actual documentary and it predates the Apple Cider Vinegar. That journalist whose wife actually had cancer and who investigated her like a journalistic investigation investigation um, he. It was very clear that he was disturbed because he knew that this was highly suspicious, that she cleared herself of, glioblastoma, and he was disturbed for that exact reason. This is actually leading to harm if people are not going to do their conventional therapy. That could be, especially if it's gonna be curative. Um, which interestingly is the case for some lymphomas. Aggressive lymphomas can be. Cured with chemotherapy. I'd love for another, you know, treatment to be there that's less toxic and more specific. And we're getting there. We're getting there with immunotherapies. But you know, whenever someone has a diagnosis of cancer, the big question on the table, and this is always right outta the gates, as soon as you get your diagnosis, is there a curative treatment? That I can do. And if there's a curative treatment that's been reliably used, that's the direction you should try to go in and then make that as tolerable as possible if it happens to be chemo. So to your point, the disservice was who knows? Who knows how many people took a a route of juicing or dietary stuff and refused treatment altogether?
Leah:Yeah.
Tina:Or delayed it greatly, which we know delaying is not a good idea. I mean, that actually is proven in studies. Delaying is a bad idea. Get on it and, and if there's cure, do it, do that treatment and you know, hopefully you come out the other side without any cancer. But yeah, I think that's the biggest offense of all of these too. I mean, money's just money, but anyone who bought that idea and is no longer with us because of it, is the true tragedy. I'm sure that that's the case.
Leah:Yeah.
Tina:Yeah. So the documentary, I think I'm gonna finish watching. I just watched one of two of those episodes so far on her, on Bell.
Leah:Yeah. I, I downloaded to watch that one. Um, I think I started watching it. I started getting confused, honestly.
Tina:yeah, yeah, me too. This was a lot to take in
Leah:Yeah.
Tina:cause they have overlaps, they all exploit people, take advantage of vulnerabilities and have absolutely no conscience at all.
Leah:Yeah. And I think the only one who You know, who wasn't like a wellness influencer, kind of, you know, claiming, Elizabeth Finch was the one who like wasn't sort of, she was profiting off of her history of cancer,
Tina:Yes.
Leah:but it wasn't the same as the other two. Not that it was any better, it was really warped, but
Tina:Yeah, she kind of threw her. Brother under the bus by accusing him of things that he didn't do.
Leah:Oh my God. No, because, because it was something that happened to someone else, someone who confided in her, and then she turned it into being her brother and then claimed her brother had killed himself after it was actually, um, uh, her wife's ex, husband killed himself. Oh my God. I'm not laughing. I'm just like, so like you said, incredulous like. And so then she yeah, completely accused her brother of these like awful things.
Tina:To her parents. She even said it to her own parents, they're like, huh? Yeah. I mean. I actually thought that that show was very good. It was decently done. Anatomy of lies was, was well done. I like the documentary that I'm watching on Belle Gibson. I think apple cider vinegar is really, maybe there's supposed to be, leave a bad taste in my mouth, but it's apple cider vinegar. Um, and Scamanda is kind of hokey, but it's,
Leah:well, the said like, like we said, it's, it's more like an A, B, C news special run out, like
Tina:On that note, just that, that reminds me the podcast is much better. I thought the podcast was actually better than the Netflix, than the special on hulu.
Leah:So, and the woman who did the podcast, she's in the, the show, right? She's in the, the TV show? Yeah. I just, it, it's that whole, like you said, like 60 minutes kind of, no, more like not a 60 minutes. It's more like a 2020 kind of
Tina:yes.
Leah:one of those. I mean, and you know, they have like reenactment type things and mixed in with the real footage. Okay. That's the other thing that I think is incredible is the real footage,
Tina:Uh oh.
Leah:because this is the time of like, cell phones and Instagram and all of that, and like some of the footage that they have, it's pretty amazing that someone was recording this, even anatomy of lies. Like someone's got a camera out and they're filming. You know, Elizabeth with her wife's kids and all of these things, like, it's just, it's really crazy. I mean, again, there is, you know, this reenactment,
Tina:Yes.
Leah:but there's also actual footage and what they've obtained is really incredible. Yeah,
Tina:yeah. The actual footage is, more my style. I wanna see the documentary. I don't, I don't really need the artistic license. These people's stories are already. Outlandish enough.
Leah:on that note, I'm Dr. Leah Sherman,
Tina:and I'm Dr. Tina Kaczor
Leah:and this is the Cancer Pod. Until next time. Thanks for listening to the Cancer Pod. Remember to subscribe, review and rate us wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on social media for updates, and as always, this is not medical advice. These are our opinions. Talk to your doctor before changing anything related to your treatment plan. The Cancer Pod is hosted by me, Dr. Leah Sherman, and by Dr. Tina Kaczor. Music is by Kevin McLeod. See you next time.
