Speaker 1: All right. Today on the show we have Kate Brunauts. She's a musician, very talented musician. I met her in New York, I think, like a month ago. Very not long ago, was it a month?
Speaker 2: Probably I can't remember what yesterday was or tomorrow, so.
Speaker 1: And we're here chatting. We have a. we have a big Maverick Mike over there helping out producing. This is our first, probably our most legit setup we've done in this, our little basement here, and I'm very excited to have you on.
Speaker 2: Thanks for being here. Thanks for making the trek. Hey, you know I get on trains sometimes, Are you?
Speaker 1: good at that, do you? generally, you know the train. What's your thoughts on the the train?
Speaker 2: You know unpopular opinion, but the MTA gets a bad rap. You know, I grew up in DC and their subway is not as robust, So what's it like in DC? It's like they close at like 10pm. Boo Indeed, big boo. And then if you, you take the one to the National Mall and you're like, great, let's see all the museums. But then if you don't, am I allowed to curse? Please, okay, don't fucking go to the Lincoln Memorial because, you got a lock so long. Anyway, it could be better.
Speaker 1: It could be better.
Speaker 2: I feel great here.
Speaker 1: You would think in the nation's capital that they would get their shit together, i guess they didn't want to.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: I guess they did not want to So Congress, so you're from DC.
Speaker 2: Well, i say that because whenever I say I'm from Virginia, people get a very. They get a picture in their mind which usually which equates to like me riding horses, which isn't really what happened. I'm from a DC suburb in Virginia. The kids call it Nova.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't know shit about Virginia or DC.
Speaker 2: If I told you, if I told you I was from Virginia, what's you know what comes to mind?
Speaker 1: This is a very charged question.
Speaker 2: Yeah, not to roast Virginians, but I think I just I think just peanuts no, literally tobacco.
Speaker 1: Just the most bland people that I could think of just popped into my head. Oh, Virginia is for lovers. Virginia is for lovers.
Speaker 2: That's our slogan, because why love case happened there between it would like I think the first interracial marriage happened in Virginia. Oh, but I it's weird because Virginia is also like a very contentious state for race. So weird. They tried, you know, at one point like one good thing happened. So, yeah, well nice.
Speaker 1: That's. That's all we can really ask for. So when did you move from there And where did you go to school, would you do?
Speaker 2: I went to high school And then I I graduated high school in 2018. And then I was very traumatic. The day after my graduation, i moved here And now you moved to New York City. Yeah, so now I'm here.
Speaker 1: And you just didn't want to go to college.
Speaker 2: Well, I know Yes.
Speaker 1: I didn't either. No, i don't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, i mean, there was a lot of pressure And you know I it's the. The town I grew up in is very academic, which is cool, Like I feel very lucky to grow up in a nice area, but like it, yeah, i was like if I was going to do anything I really wanted to pay for myself. And then I was looking at how much college costs And it just seems ridiculous. Especially, i was always like, whatever I do, i would like to be somewhat involved in, either like dogs or music, and both of those didn't really seem like I would necessarily need a degree. So I was kind of like I don't know And I always felt like I could go back for dogs.
Speaker 2: What do you mean? What for dogs?
Speaker 1: I think we're getting ahead of ourselves. Let's take it back. Let's take it back. What kind of kid were you? What were you doing growing up? What? what inspired your love of dogs and music, and when did this happen? Why did this happen? Um bring it back to kindergarten, kindergarten.
Speaker 2: Oh my God, kindergarten.
Speaker 1: What were you doing in kindergarten? What did you do through elementary school? I would kind of people are hanging out with.
Speaker 2: Oh, i don't know. I actually I was really into running in elementary school. Okay, i was a big runner, so that was the thing. The only thing I remember about kindergarten is I was called Katie, until my teacher forgot the I on my name tag And I was like you know, this really fits Yeah. So that's all I remember about that age. But yeah, i was. I was really like I tried to do really well at school. I you know I love to learn, but I've always loved dogs.
Speaker 1: Just always. That's your thing, you always. I mean the thing I just saw on your profiles, like I'm a learner and I do music, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2: Love learning. That's the thing. if college was not so astronomically expensive Um kill it.
Speaker 2: I don't know about that, but I would love, i would love to learn. The thing that I always was so frustrating to me is I felt like in high school, you know you only have so much, so many options for studying what you actually are interested in, and then, supposedly, once you get to college, you're supposed to have that flexibility, but no, you still have to pay for all these classes that you don't really care about or will necessarily use, and that also. There's a whole thing like I I finished math early so I could like grab on an extra music course because I was, i was just I just hate doing things that I feel like aren't serving a specific purpose to my life. I mean, that's everyone. But like I'm really stubborn Yeah, i guess so.
Speaker 1: In what ways are you stubborn? Like what? so you were. You were into just like learning. As a kid, you were exploring around. You're running around.
Speaker 2: I run, i run. I was like I was cross country captain in middle school. But that was middle school And then I quit running. But no, i like, i liked running. I had a job. That's how I saved up from New York. I worked at a grocery store in high school at Wegeys Wegmans.
Speaker 1: Wegeys Wegmans.
Speaker 2: Wegeys Wegmans. Well, it's just Wegmans, but if you work there, you call it Wegeys.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what were you doing? Just like bagging cashier.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, actually eventually, yeah, eventually, i was promoted to help desk, so what do you do to help desk? You like people come in and they're like. You know my cheerio was not toasted correctly. Can I please get a refund? And you're like you know what, ma'am. You're so right, here you go.
Speaker 1: So worst looking cheerio I've ever seen.
Speaker 2: I know like get that out of my face. It was terrible, Do?
Speaker 1: you think you're just naturally kind of a people person.
Speaker 2: Yes and no. I think I like being with people, but for a pre-ordinated amount of time, like I literally like if I go out. I set this is I don't know if this is rude, but I set a timer and once that timer's up, like I know, How long is our timer? No, you guys, I mean I'm well. This is a situation in which I'm leaching off of your information.
Speaker 1: So yes, my information.
Speaker 2: I won't say Yeah no, i would never.
Speaker 1: Yeah, i know, i know.
Speaker 2: I'm telling you like it is. That's the other thing. I have no filter. It's really bad, but That's great. No, no, i'm not today, but yeah, no, no, seriously like I need your help with my stage bot because I'm freaking out. Because, I don't know how to do anything. Anyway, yeah, no, it's like two and a half to three hours. I'd say you know reasonable amount of time.
Speaker 1: I think our timer's like an hour 45 for you, so Great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that'll work out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, i'm just kidding.
Speaker 2: No 19.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if I'm engaged in something like generally I lose track of time and I don't really count that, but That rarely happens What It rarely happens for me.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Where what You feel engaged in something, yeah like losing you know, I'll hang out with people and I'll make plans.
Speaker 2: That's fair. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: But so you generally make music by yourself. That's like all you do. When did this start? When did you start even getting into music or art or anything sort of in the creative realm?
Speaker 2: Because yeah, yeah, no, that's good. So I usually I usually I've always liked to sing And you know like I made little YouTube covers growing up.
Speaker 1: I did a lot of that That was a.
Speaker 2: thing.
Speaker 1: When did how old were you?
Speaker 2: Oh God, i probably started a channel like three times and then deleted it, like like, for example, i think when I was seven is probably when I created my first one. It's just terrifying. I would never let my children I mean my parents didn't know. You know, i had like an iPod touch and I was like la, la, la, nothing's gonna go wrong here. And then I got like one hate comment and I was like delete. I don't yeah, But anyway I came back eventually.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, most people who are grown adults can't handle one hate comment.
Speaker 2: I still can't.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean I've gotten better, I've gotten better. But yeah, I've been like as someone who like claims to hate social media, or at least some of the tenants on it. I am like pretty online, So, but anyway. So, yeah, I did that And then when I was in middle school, I started taking guitar And then I kind of like taught myself, you know, basic piano along the way, And then I wrote my first song when I was like 13, I think Who were you listening to at the time?
Speaker 1: Who was like your inspiration? What were you sort of covering?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I like the first time when I felt like I was getting my own sort of music taste was through Pandora Radio And it was a lot of just like the like the Indie 2010 scene. Also like Tweet artists in that realm, like what does that mean? Like you know, like chairlift, like when bruises no, no no, oh my gosh. Okay, okay, well, who else Like?
Speaker 1: NGMT. Okay Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know like when Aracular Spectacular was like having its thing, like 2011 to 2014.
Speaker 1: That era, yeah, that was a pretty influential era, on me too, it was so cool, Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I was listening to a lot of that and then Lord completely changed me. Completely changed not the deity, but the singer. really changed my life.
Speaker 1: I guess I got to think about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, No, but no, no, no, no, no, no. But yeah, no, Lord, I like I'd never seen like a pop star that had such a weird voice in like a and was just so confident, or appearing like confident, about it and comfortable.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And like mannerism.
Speaker 1: I saw Coachella when she first blew up. That was dope, really Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, she just moves so differently than anyone And that was really inspiring to me. At first I was like you know, i was kind of like, oh, her music's okay, but I downloaded the album because that's what you did Like when you kind of liked a couple songs and then I heard ribs by her and that like I was like whoa, i didn't even know you could structure a song this way.
Speaker 2: This is so cool. I loved how she blended like a lot of pop stuff with like a lot of trap influence. I thought that was so interesting. So yeah, that was really-.
Speaker 1: She's from New Zealand, right, mm-hmm. Yeah, she was great when she first came out. That was like very interesting that she like made it big Cause she, i think she was like one of the first to kind of have like that quieter side, like kind of like-.
Speaker 2: Absolutely that minimal.
Speaker 1: The brooding sort of thing. Yeah, she was definitely ahead of her game. What'd you think of her latest album?
Speaker 2: I thought it was great. I think, yeah, i mean it's not like I Pure Heroine and melodrama I tend to resonate two more, but it's also. they're just such different things, Like if I'm going to the beach or if I just want like a day in the sun, like solar power, like I think it's great. I really like it when artists do what's best for them and not necessarily what's requested.
Speaker 1: Yeah, i thought it was good too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she got so much flack.
Speaker 1: She really did Also, i think her whole thing was she never gives a fuck.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 1: So it was funny that people were like oh, now you can't-, how dare you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she's like I'm good.
Speaker 1: It's still making royalties off of the other shit She's doing her thing, yeah, and she doesn't do socials.
Speaker 2: That's what She doesn't, she doesn't. She did when she put out the album. It came out.
Speaker 1: Oh, when it went, no, no, no, i'm just saying like When that album felt like it came out nowhere, like I kind of forgot about her, yeah, no.
Speaker 2: Well, probably there's a reason why. But her, like I'm such a stan, but like her bio on Twitter is something like I'm gonna butcher it, but like you are what you do every day, of course, or like something like that, and I'm just you know, she just lives. Seems like she lives in her peaceful little bubble, like only does social when she absolutely has to And just like makes her stuff. Sometimes she'll like post little cakes that she makes and then that's it. Yeah, like that's so great.
Speaker 1: I do miss the times I first got on Instagram where it was like I could just post whatever the fuck I wanted. Yeah, i was like you take a picture at night and you're like this is cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, everyone thought I thought I was a photographer. Yeah, i did, i did. Yeah, but it was nice. You can take pictures of just things, i think in general.
Speaker 1: it's trying to go back to that Like people are.
Speaker 2: I noticed the fatigue.
Speaker 1: I think people are in general. I think what people want now just like to see you and what you do and all that you do.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, i think in general also just wants you to post all the time. That's really what social media is now. It's like you only get rewarded if you post like fucking constantly, which, for better or worse, it doesn't need to be quite as like thought out. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's definitely like a quantity. It's always like the dumbest things I post.
Speaker 1: I'm like why?
Speaker 2: did that, do good, that's the most, oh yeah.
Speaker 1: Where I was like I did not think about that at all, and then something I'm like really like trying to like squeeze out. I'm like yeah. Yeah, yeah. But, it's just, it just wants you to be on it all the time.
Speaker 2: Do the thing Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's a little manipulative, for better or worse. what do your parents think of while you're growing up of? like music, or what are your parents like?
Speaker 2: My parents are great, You know. I don't think they really were like yeah, daughter, go. Yeah, daughter, You know, just go there. They couldn't get your name right here. No, no, no.
Speaker 1: Katie. I forget Whatever the fuck we called her.
Speaker 2: I keep changing it on them. I can't keep up. Never let them know your next move. But yeah, no, they just no, i mean they're, I mean they're, they're. they're not like, they're not like they're not like уз Sweetmeats or or whatever, like some random phrase that that rings because they're not going to be here.
Speaker 1: You know who?
Speaker 2: you are mothers and toddlers, right, right.
Speaker 1: And so it's Yeah, alright, here I go, here we go. Welcome to New York at your어도o. So you're coming out of your room in the morning.
Speaker 2: Oh.
Speaker 1: He's out in the kitchen.
Speaker 2: Oh, no, no, no, he's not. No, no, no.
Speaker 1: Oh no, The acapella artists, they sleep in. No, no, no.
Speaker 2: No, my dad is a very reserved person But he loves. like you know, his mom was.
Speaker 1: Did he do acapella?
Speaker 2: Sometimes, but only like with the quiet. He wouldn't just do it. Sometimes he'll catch us singing in his room. Yeah, but it's very like he doesn't like to be like you know, like sing monkey sing Honest Right. Right, that's not him, or you won't catch him.
Speaker 2: Just tuning along, but I would always sing like, but always very like clandestine, like I try not to bother people. I would always film like my YouTube videos in my bedroom with my door closed And I don't know it was like secret for a bit. It wasn't really a thing. Anyway, my parents are great. I mean, i don't blame them. I don't think they were like super stoked about their daughter like not going to college and pursuing a very vague interest of music and dogs.
Speaker 1: Music and dogs. OK, what's the dogs part? Well, you just got a date.
Speaker 2: I'd be remiss if I didn't ask. I just love dogs. I am like a new self-evident.
Speaker 1: You want to be a vet?
Speaker 2: No How.
Speaker 1: I said like a dog walker.
Speaker 2: I once a dog walker. I was a dog walker. Oh, that's another job I had in high school. I was a dog walker. I was a dog walker when I moved to the city also.
Speaker 1: Why'd you stop?
Speaker 2: Because I was tired And I would have to walk like eight to nine different dogs like in separate walks a day, which is really wears on your body, and I was doing that also with. I worked at Guitar Center too.
Speaker 1: Oh dope.
Speaker 2: Yeah, i also worked at Joan the Jeice. I worked all over the place.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Honestly anywhere.
Speaker 1: I've walked in seven W4s since I moved here in February.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you get it.
Speaker 1: I get it, you know.
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, no, I always love dogs. I couldn't have a dog growing up, but I used to carry around my dog encyclopedias in elementary school And I'd study the breeds.
Speaker 1: What's your favorite dog?
Speaker 2: Well, that is a difficult question, but I really like Bernie's found dogs. I think they're so fluffy They are, but they shed so much. And now that I have a hypoallergenic dog Oh, you have a dog I do.
Speaker 1: Her name is Spicy, she's great, wow, yeah, what's this hypoallergenic dog? What kind of dog is it?
Speaker 2: She's a shih tzu poodle, otherwise known as a shi pu.
Speaker 1: A shi pu.
Speaker 2: Shih pu.
Speaker 1: Shih pu Shih pu.
Speaker 2: What is shih pu True? Yeah, I know, this is fast.
Speaker 1: We're making Michael so happy right now. He loves dogs.
Speaker 2: I'm actually going to say pu, but yeah, well, they had hand Yeah. Yeah, dogs are great.
Speaker 1: So OK, so your parents weren't super stoked on you and having this big interest in music.
Speaker 2: I mean they were supportive of music Like they love. No, they were super supportive, like they would come to my choir concerts and like that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But they weren't. I don't know if any parent would really be like yeah, go, that's not true. Well, i don't know. Maybe I don't know, maybe I just grew up in a, i don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, not again. But it's also, most people don't want that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, i was lucky enough. Or that security, yeah, i mean.
Speaker 1: I've said this on the podcast before, but your parents have to be psycho to have a drummer as a kid And encourage it And hear the noise.
Speaker 2: Our neighbors fucking hated us. Oh, I'm sure.
Speaker 1: That's right, but you know, they were just supportive, they always left me having all my friends over, like Michael and Jammin and Jake and all those people. We had seven people in my bedroom Just all making the biggest racket. Oh, it was smelly and sweaty and fun.
Speaker 2: It was a great time We just had Little Caesar's pizza and we would rock out.
Speaker 1: What do you have to say about Little Caesar's?
Speaker 2: We were I mean the good branding. Immediately I was like Britsa. Britsa in my mind, but I'm like come on, little Caesar, i'm a food snob, that's a problem.
Speaker 1: We also grew up in San Diego.
Speaker 2: I know nothing except water, sand.
Speaker 1: Yes, have you been to California?
Speaker 2: Yes, I have family in California Oh what part. I used to have family in San Francisco. I used to have family in. Oh no, i currently have family in not LA, it's one of the Redondo Beach. Ok, so Cal, yeah, so Yeah.
Speaker 1: OK.
Speaker 2: Moving on.
Speaker 1: Yes. So now you're out in New York City. You just graduated high school, you have experienced at a grocery store And you have a dream. Why did you move to New York City?
Speaker 2: Because I would perform in high school at the local Therese Café. I would perform at and stuff. But the scene in Virginia is pretty like folk or punk rock, not punk. Wait, no, that was so wrong. Pop punk, i mean, that wasn't super wrong, but you get what I'm saying. So I felt like And I wanted to.
Speaker 1: That's a huge thing for that area. For some reason, punk is huge in DC, and I don't know why.
Speaker 2: It is very. Then those are like the two scenes. Yeah, And that wasn't at that time. I mean, I feel like now I'd be more interesting in exploring that sort of sound, But at the time I was like I was so excited because I was it was the beginning of like teaching myself how to produce. So I was just like I want to make like electro pop music And I didn't really feel like there was a huge outlet for me around there. So I was like, oh, either New York or LA.
Speaker 2: I also wanted to be around musicians because, like literally pretty much everyone from my high school like grew up to be a government contractor, a consultant or do something in tech, And so I just I think you know I felt very like supported and I had great friends and stuff growing up, But I always felt kind of like weird or just like it was hard to find anyone. I had friends who did music and loved music, but no one who was really like I want to like I don't know like put, put a lot on, a lot on the line here to do that, And no disrespect to like either way of going about it. But yeah, I just wanted to be surrounded by more people who kind of made the stuff that I felt like I was going to create.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and you moved at probably the best time to meet in New York City, which is right before 2020. How was that?
Speaker 2: Did you?
Speaker 1: find the. Do you still? did you like New York City? What was that like? kind of like paint that picture. Yeah, when did you move here in 2019?
Speaker 2: Like no, I moved 2018.
Speaker 1: No 2018. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I moved here in June.
Speaker 1: And were you making friends and all that good stuff?
Speaker 2: No. I think, that's the thing. When you move here at 18 and you're not in school, it's very hard. It's different making friends, because you can't go to the bar, you can't like go anywhere pretty much late because there's Yeah, yeah. So that's.
Speaker 1: I moved right to LA when I was 18 and it sucked.
Speaker 2: Oh, so you, you know, and it was yeah.
Speaker 1: But I was going to music school but still I was in bands and I couldn't get into the club.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's the thing too. I couldn't play open mikes, i was so sad.
Speaker 1: I had to play drums and then they'd kick me out and I'd have to wait out for my band while they drink for the next three hours.
Speaker 2: Oh and not really making friends because I'm like 18, 19. Yeah, no one wants to be your friend. No, i had roommates. I had roommates. They were, that was you know, they were nice, but there was like it all. It was one of those situations that just the household was not in peace by the end of it. But I felt, you know, i was just kind of like in survival mode of like you know, i didn't come here with any jobs lined up, so I was very much like yeah good job, good job, good to do this.
Speaker 2: And also, you know, first time out of the house, first time in our apartment, lots of new things, but eventually, like, i met Matt, who is my partner, and he also moved out to New York at 18 to pursue a film, but it felt like we had very like parallel lives in that way, so it was nice to meet someone who I felt like.
Speaker 1: Understood Yes.
Speaker 2: So once, once I met him, i think that made me and also like my friend River, who I've been friends with for forever. She's also a musician and a producer. It was the first time I'd ever met another female producer like around my age, And that was super exciting. So as soon as I started to meet more of my people than that How?
Speaker 1: how were you meeting people? I mean the few people that you met, that you, like, like, made friends?
Speaker 2: with Really Okay Bumble friends. Hell yeah Does wonders. Sometimes I would go on dates with people and then it wouldn't work out, but then we would still chill. So that worked sometimes. And then Matt I met through scamming him through Tinder and then scamming. Well, I was using it as a music marketing ploy. Just blindly Works, Liking everyone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really cool to hear how people meet other people in New York City because it's a. You know it's hard in general, especially because, like I, didn't go to a traditional college So I was just in a drum program with other dudes.
Speaker 2: Oh, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1: And drummers are the last people that you want to meet when you're a musician.
Speaker 2: if you're a drummer, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1: So you're just hanging around with like basically worthless people for just kidding, But it was not like a big energy of, like you know, people creating music, because it's like if we jammed together it would sound really annoying.
Speaker 2: Too loud It was fun.
Speaker 1: We do like sheds or what all that stuff. But Sheds, yeah, drum shedding. Have you ever heard that? No, so I just drummers get in a room together and they just like Hit things. Hit things and kind of like trading for Okay Yeah, drum shed.
Speaker 2: Nice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, not super popular outside the drum community because it's a little hard to watch. It's very concoffinous.
Speaker 2: I'm very curious now sheds Oh I mean, that's like my Instagram.
Speaker 1: You go on there and you open it up and it'll be like Anyway, so going on from there well, also fun fact about that I know a lot of people to meet a ton of people on Tinder and Bumble and Hinge and that's like how you connect and all that stuff And I think it's just a way to go. My brother-in-law just started an app for just meeting, for platonic meetups, and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: That's it. Good luck for him, yeah.
Speaker 1: I think it's just a way to go, because it's like so hard to Yeah. What are you going to do, like go to a bar?
Speaker 2: Yeah, i mean I've made maybe like a handful of friends now from shows, but honestly, most of the people who I end up going to their shows I meet on like TikTok too now Yeah, which is crazy.
Speaker 1: And we're going to get into that. I love that. I think what's crazy about how you and I met was literally Carly who, frau, had a musicians and artists meetup, which I've never been to anything called that before.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
Speaker 1: And that was really cool for her to do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, her and.
Speaker 1: Jake are shooting right now.
Speaker 2: Oh are they? Yeah, i'm going to her show tomorrow.
Speaker 1: So when was your first like release as Kate Brunauts?
Speaker 2: 2018. I literally.
Speaker 1: How long after you moved from New York.
Speaker 2: It was as I was moving, i scheduled everything Like I graduated on like a Friday and then that Saturday my first EP came out and I moved to New York. So it's very dramatic condensed weekend.
Speaker 1: Wow, and what did you? What were you recording on? So you use Ableton now? Mm-hmm, you're big Ableton proponent. Yes, that's what we use, yeah, so I love Ableton. I know how to use Pro Tools and I use Logic, but I think Ableton is just the most fun looking So quick, so quick, and you feel like you're playing with a band and And it's easy to manipulate, like vocal samples.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize, like every other DAW, especially like Logic and Pro Tools, like you have to do the most, even just to like pitch it up or down or if it's the worst, They know what you want, they know why you have the program And it's for people who just create, yeah, and just want to be creative and not take in stuff and like I mean, if you like something that's already done, they want to have the whole process be able to go out into the world, yeah.
Speaker 2: From like starting ideas and sketching out. From that point to playing out live. It has all the capabilities from like sort to finish.
Speaker 1: And I think in general, like what Have you used? Pro Tools and Logic and all this?
Speaker 2: I have a little bit. Yeah, I could see if I was really going to go down the. I want to mix all my own stuff. I would probably get Pro Tools.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But Logic.
Speaker 1: Boo Boo.
Speaker 2: I mean, they have some cool like the soft tube plugins or nice.
Speaker 1: So how did you get into plugins? Who the fuck taught you all this stuff?
Speaker 2: YouTube Yeah. Yeah, lots of YouTube. And then also I recorded with. I did all my demos in my childhood bedroom and then I found a local studio in Virginia. There's an engineer there named Devin Spear and he is amazing. He now has exhale recording but he still mixes a lot of my stuff to this day And he was like really like you know, i came in and I was like I don't know What's his name.
Speaker 1: Where does he work?
Speaker 2: He works at this. He used to work at this place called Blue Room Studios and then now he has his own situation called Exhale Recording.
Speaker 1: You want to meet this person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, devin's awesome.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So Devin really allowed me to like ask questions and you know he's so approachable and friendly and just like a nice guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just a nice guy Yeah, a nice guy. It was really nice to have that environment close enough where I could really be like I don't even know, like, yeah, i didn't even know that you could. He really encouraged me to like record harmonies and that sort of stuff And like while I was recording my first project and even when I put it out like I literally I hated it. I hated my project like the EP so much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, why?
Speaker 2: I just felt like you know, you have this expectation of what you think it's going to be or where you want to get, and I just knew, like I wasn't there yet or I wasn't at what I was envisioning. I was embarrassed with like. I knew, like I've always been a don't let great be the end of me of good kind of person. So I knew like whatever I make, i just want to put it out and then I'll use that to motivate me to like do better on the next one.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was like I've been normal, but I was how many songs you about?
Speaker 1: I tried counting.
Speaker 2: It's at least 50, which is crazy town.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which is I mean, but it's not like I think that's generally the way that like music is going is just like put your shit out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think there's something to be said for like a really really well done album, but in general I think most things don't need to be on an album and like we don't have time for that shit. That's true.
Speaker 2: I mean I think now I'm more in the, I feel like I have a much more clear idea of like, what my voice is. But I would say, up until like my most like my EP called all caps. Before that I was very like. I mean, I still struggle with feeling confident in what I'm creating, But before then I was very much like. I didn't even really like. I mean like I could see the merit of like. You know, maybe somebody would connect with this or maybe someone would resonate with this, But I was always kind of just feeling like I could do a lot better and I could, or I could notice that there is still so much I had to learn to do. One go, Um, no.
Speaker 1: I think that's my favorite part about you is like you. Just it seems like you have these like many things of like you just genuinely like to learn. I just want to learn And you like that fun with that process.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really love the process of it.
Speaker 1: And that's. I think that's what. Yeah, because you're like you have a, you have a following, Like I mean, if you think about it, you have probably, like Jake and I are talking about, say, probably have like 50,000 impressions on people through your social media and music every month.
Speaker 2: That's beyond me. That's fucking wild.
Speaker 1: And you as and you've never put it out there as like oh, I'm trying to be like the fucking shit, I'm trying to be the best, Like it's. This is like just something that you like to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, i mean like I, of course, you know, like anyone else, i would love to, you know, connect with as many people as it makes sense, but I've that's the one thing I've always struggled like sometimes with connecting with certain musicians, like this pompous attitude of um, i don't know like I'm the very best, which you know. maybe like being confident isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think that can be good. But if you ever use your ego to weaponize, like putting someone else's art down, that is like I'm very not cool with. I feel like that's.
Speaker 1: I think that's. I see less and less of that and more of like I'm owed this.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of entitlement of like and I've interviewed a decent amount of people now And I feel like the people who maybe I shouldn't say this out loud Um, i would say that the people who do the best are the ones who don't really give a fuck and who generally don't think anybody owes them anything And they're just there to make the music, no matter what, and do it in the best way possible and put out their, their content and their brand as something that's genuinely just wholesome to them.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, and others don't, and that's uh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, i could never. I think I'm just that's. I've never. I've like, i've always been. I don't know, it would just be painful for me to put on a front or like I don't know. It's weird that you know we're in an industry that's like so based on supposedly at its core, like on connection and whatever. And the business feels so like superficial and the antithesis of that, something like borderline manipulative like, depending on the way that it's used, but yeah.
Speaker 1: It's not something people like need. Like music is not, you know, like food or water. No, we're not saving any lives, Yeah it's you could, you know you could also make the argument against that, and then you know it's helped people For sure for sure, but at the same time You're not doing it. So manipulating somebody into listening to your music is just like not, I don't know. Yeah, I see all the problems with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: So kind of going off that side. I mean, you've already kind of mentioned you don't like social media but you are very good at it in the sense of like I think you just put out yourself as a like, just a person that does things and you enjoy life And I think that works really well for you. And how do you build a? how did you build a community on social media And why do you think I mean you started from? you started when you were seven, so you kind of you were, it was ingrained. But like, how give some good advice to somebody of like do's and don'ts of social media?
Speaker 2: I think you just I mean there's a lot you could say. I think just at the end of the day is you have to remember, like you're connecting with another person across screen. You know you can't like feed a dead horse or like bring a horse to lots of horse metaphors. You can't bring like a horse to water, like if a horse The horse is your career. I'm just like caught on horses today.
Speaker 1: Telling you from Virginia That makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yee-haw, um yeah, but yeah, you know, like you're not gonna. I think what people forget all the time is, if someone doesn't know you, they don't owe you anything, they don't know who you are. You don't get like a big clappity-do-da because you decided to, you know, make a song, like you know. I think I think that's great, I think it's great to express yourself. But I do commonly see like this entitlement of like why aren't you all like paying my bills? Obviously, like there's a lot of financial issues with the music industry and that's a separate issue, but there is like this expectation of because I learned how to do this very enjoyable thing, i should be compensated because I took time to like learn something which I don't. I don't know. I think I'm getting off topic, but um, no, that's exactly.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I don't know. I think it's just important to like you gotta be yourself. If you're, it's gonna shine through. I think people are smarter than people like to think of like audience members, I don't know. I think people can tell when you're not being authentic to yourself, or I mean I hope so, But yeah. so I think all you can do is like try your best and you know, respond to people and it's not even a chore. It's so exciting, like when somebody connects with something that you created.
Speaker 1: It's such a bare minimum thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but not everybody does that. They're like people are too cool to school to like. That's the other thing. Like some musicians are just so like don't touch me. Don't talk to me And it's. I've never understood that.
Speaker 1: No, Yeah And um yeah, I would totally agree with that And I think that's just the way to go And like your stuff is inspiring because, like you know, I see your stuff on YouTube and you're putting out all sorts of different content, just kind of seeing what works, but also doesn't seem like you're trying any. You're not like gauging the market. You're just like, you're just putting out you're putting out shit that you just want to put out cause, like whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, so I think that's just kind of the way to go. I'm mostly telling this for Michael and I cause we would love to do more of that shit. Uh-oh, Whoa, I think we're getting arrested. How would you describe your music to somebody that's never heard it?
Speaker 2: Um, i, i will either say avant-prop or sometimes I'll say like pop music that takes a little bit more risk from like time to time. but I, i don't know I've said like in Deetronica or electro pop, also like it it.
Speaker 1: It all does not want to have heard before. I like that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no-transcript. You know the like the little genre tags on like Submit Hub and you read the little descriptions because also, i feel like genre is becoming more and more like Obsolete and like cross-pollinated that it's. It's hard to tell sometimes, but I generally stick to like a basic, like pop structure, but I try and like push myself to Be inspired by different, a lot of different genres when I can and these.
Speaker 1: My yourself is Dark and yeah that's. I love that. Where did that come from? Why? Because you are such a nice. Yeah, it's because we've only hung out a handful times and We're playing a show together at some point. We'll talk about that at the end. But You are such a nice bubbly person. Where did that come from?
Speaker 2: I Like. If I didn't do music, then I would not be as nice of a bubbly person, i don't think.
Speaker 1: I.
Speaker 2: Think that's where. All the like okay. I'm pretty, i say like you know.
Speaker 1: I like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, i'm like equal parts. I would say I. If I had to describe myself, i would describe myself as intense in like both directions. So I like Happy and sad, yes, but I feel like I channel all the more difficult things into my music, so that's where.
Speaker 1: I go.
Speaker 2: It's very difficult for me to create a happy song, and that's something I've been trying to work on, but it's very challenging, especially if it's not related to like love what sort of stuff do you work through in your music? What do you say?
Speaker 1: like, what sort of stuff is sort of the darker stuff that you're putting out? What sort of things, even about the world. What pisses you off?
Speaker 2: I think a lot of times I just generally feel overwhelmed about the world and how It just you know, i feel it can feel like pretty hopeless, like with all Um everything with everything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think and like climate change and no one's getting along. You know people are really distant. I don't know It's, it's some. You know that's a little dark stuff and I think I internalize Some of that. Sometimes I Think also I'm just like I'm a very emotional, sensitive person. So if I am sad or just like having a tough day or not feeling, i think I generally have a good sense of self-worth, but sometimes I can doubt myself and my abilities.
Speaker 1: What makes you doubt yourself the most?
Speaker 2: um, i think sometimes it comes from having more of a non-traditional path. Um, and also I sometimes I feel like I Path towards what? path towards music or path towards in life, just in general, just like being off the got it off the beaten trail, especially coming from a place where that's Not really something that a lot of people do. But I think I I amplify it and more than What it actually is. I don't think anybody really cares like rationally speaking, but sometimes I can feel, um, just like I.
Speaker 1: In like the history of the world for non-traditional paths, because people are like yeah, i get it.
Speaker 2: No, for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, um, but yeah, it's totally. It feels alienating to not have any sort of like Anything to really follow. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But I yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I agree with you Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, and I think I think sometimes I just like I've always kind of felt I've always had friends and people that I've connected with. I think sometimes I can kind of like Isolate myself because I feel like I'm not always. I mean, it's a lot easier now that I'm in New York, but, uh, you know, growing up I always felt like, oh, i have all these weird interests and, like you know, instead of like hanging out with friends, i would want to, like you know, like I would go to the library during lunch and like make beats and like you know, i I was dope, which is great and I loved it. But sometimes I just felt Lonely, i guess, because or sometimes I do feel lonely, because I feel like it's such a weird, it's uh, it's a unique intersection and I love that about myself, but I I think it also comes with a sense of like, who can I really relate to?
Speaker 1: Yeah, i think that's the weird thing about doing music as well is because How, how well? first question how often do you think you spend like writing or recording or just messing with music a week?
Speaker 2: Oh, i don't know a lot. I try to work on music every day in some regard. So Definitely, i mean, you know, right after, like, if I, after I finished my day job, like the rest of my night until like 9 or 10 pm Or or later lately, you know I'm working on it. It really it takes up a lot of time. Yeah, yeah and that's.
Speaker 1: That's the thing, so Like by definition, but also what's interesting about music. So I talked to like painters, uh as well, and those guys. Those guys are crazy. Like they can be in a studio for 12 hours a day and. Seven days a week And you know they're very nice to talk to and stuff like that. But they're like because they're, you know, very emotional, empathetic people who are like picking up on all these things. But they in general like they. They're like oh yeah, i can hang out when my show happens in three months.
Speaker 1: Um, but think about what difference between that and music is. Like. Kind of, i feel like musicians also pull off of other people More. Yeah, maybe, at least at least for like creation wise, but you generally write by yourself. At the same time, it's it. I still feel like it's a more of a Like, a But be banding together of other musicians, whether it be through social media, talking to other people, like getting inspired Constantly, and, of course, painters and all that stuff do that too, but it's it's that weird mix of like you have to sit down and do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to make the time to make music right and that discipline just can be isolating Because there's not enough time to it can.
Speaker 1: And then also you feel like you're kind of dropping off the face of the world sometimes.
Speaker 2: Or you're like well.
Speaker 1: I also want to like date. I also want to like Go, yeah, go see these museums. I also like need to figure out other stuff and they'll deal with like other hard shit. But you're like, what fucking This is what makes me happy right and it's kind of hard and I gotta do it. But once you get into habit and I think more or less you were in the habit- so. But, yeah, I think that's what's so cool about New York City is like you just.
Speaker 2: Everybody's doing that shit. Yeah, yeah, i think you're busy, like for sure.
Speaker 1: Um yeah, in general, i love talking to people, so I'm doing this.
Speaker 2: Um.
Speaker 1: And you know we have to sit down here and do it. It's like, uh, it's just part of it. This is, this is my spiel to everybody who's listening. By the way, he's gotta fucking do it sometimes like. Do it this wouldn't happen. Yeah, this wouldn't happen unless we did it.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: Get your shit together, go do it wash those dishes. Yeah, watch those dishes and lock yourself in your house. Yeah, so.
Speaker 2: I'm, i can see, i can tell.
Speaker 1: So I So for for your music and like how you put it out, um, what I can't. What were your next steps? like what's? What are you trying to do?
Speaker 2: Um, i don't want to keep putting out music.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. And you could do, you could do that forever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Um, it's nice that I'm getting some more gigs. Yeah, maybe that will How many gigs of you booked me like my like. I Went to the person and was like I would like a gig.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you showed. you showed up in the chariot and you were like. Hello, I would like to play here.
Speaker 2: I've done that once.
Speaker 1: Hell yeah but how? many gigs have you played? um 12 do you know how crazy that is?
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: I'd say, uh, she's the best.
Speaker 2: I mean you know I'm playing to like. You know I mean I don't care, like I'm happy to play anywhere.
Speaker 1: You getting asked to play shows is Awesome. Like usually, you got to throw the shows, but also people who are really cool are asking you to play these shows and you're getting really cool gigs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel really lucky to be around cool people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you've done this all through basically social media, but also just you being you and being a genuinely nice person, and also continuously putting out music and keeping yourself engaged mostly, and then everybody else along for your ride, and I think that's why your shit works so well.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: That's like the coolest thing.
Speaker 2: I think, that's it. Yeah, that's the that you. You touched on something that I think is so important. I think my biggest goal is I want to be a sustainable artist, Like at the end of the day. I just don't want to.
Speaker 1: I like that. we're quoting that Yeah yeah, we're making a shirt.
Speaker 2: No, i have so many ideas with the sustainable artist situation because there's not enough advocacy for that And there's not enough like how do you manage? you know doing all these things And you know I feel like everyone's just so caught up in like how do I hit this arbitrary metric and like get to this thing? that is not going to make you feel fulfilled like long term.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 2: How can I, how can I cultivate a life where I feel like I have enough time to explore what I love but also, you know, spend time with the people I love And like that's, that's the dream. So yeah yeah, and I'll always, like you know, always try my best to like keep, keep going on socials, keep the keep music going. But I would make music anyway. I think it's just a matter of like I'm not stressed about it.
Speaker 1: And that's awesome. I don't want to think that I think that's the only way to do it And I this is this is me preaching from somewhere else Like I am like so cool to see you not burn out because I've burned out. Michael knows I've burned out on music many times.
Speaker 2: It's, it's easy Like it's so easy to like I don't. It's hard Like if you don't have. I'm very lucky that I've been able to cultivate like my day job schedule right now is so flexible. I'm at home, i have time. You know it's not. I tried to do. I was a full time audio engineer and producer and I hated it. It was not good for me. It was not good for me creatively because at the end of the day, So last thing you want to do exactly, and I did jumping professionally for a while and that was the only thing I was like.
Speaker 1: I fucking hate this.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that was the biggest like. why don't I just decouple like music, which I love so much, with like income earning potential, and it's so much more beautiful that way? And I you know, of course, like when you're working, you're working. you know, whatever you do, you're going to have to like suck it up and do something so that you can live. But yeah for me it makes it a lot easier to like have that.
Speaker 1: You need to mostly like freelance online and all that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, i edit podcasts. I, i'm a copywriter, i'm a blog writer. I do write for some music blogs, so that's cool, but it uses a different part of my brain, like I'm not creatively.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'm like I'm doing audio for theaters right now. And it's like.
Speaker 2: It's like a close enough but like it's adjacent, but like it's fun. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I'm not like I would never. I've been asked to be an audio guide, a music venue, a million times And I'm like, nah, i would just look at them and be like I want to.
Speaker 2: I want to be there. Yeah Right, you're the guy I want to yell at.
Speaker 1: I'm the guy that I want to yell at.
Speaker 2: And the thing is it's like all the like super high in demand, like coveted or something you know you would fantasize about having a career in. Those are all the careers where it's like the pay is shit, the hours are shit, there's no because, like you're so replaceable. Yeah, you know what I mean. So I don't know I. I. It makes a lot more sense for me to have the separation until, like you know, maybe one day I'll find a way to make being an artist sustainable enough for me to keep it going. But if I don't, i think you're I think you're doing everything right.
Speaker 1: I don't. I can't think of a single other thing that I would do differently. Thanks, i, i, i, yeah, and that's just me docking. I'm not like a fucking guru over here, but it'd be cool if I was right. Well, fast forward to five years from now. But yeah, i always ask people this question, but I feel like we kind of got touched on it a little bit. But what is your idea of success?
Speaker 2: Being happy, being able to pay my bills, getting to spend time with the people I love and like make music.
Speaker 1: So there you go, What do you? what do you think is? um, yeah, I don't know. I just want to. I just want to see you play shows all over the world. Would you want to do that? Oh, yeah, Okay. So what's out there?
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, If I got the opportunity. But also, you know I don't want to like, I don't know You don't want to get disappointed if it's wrong. Yeah, i mean I don't know, i just I don't. I really, at the end of the day, we everyone inside or outside of music, like we all have very little control of like what's going on See anything.
Speaker 2: Right, so you know what I just I try and like. obviously that would be incredible, but I try to keep the day by day, try and find enjoyment in like whatever little processes that I can.
Speaker 1: So like why I was so tripped up on the fact that basically you've had people book shows that have you know come to you to have you on their show. Is that you doing like taking like this slow approach of like I'm just going to keep on building, keep on making music, keep on like connecting with people online, that going into the?
Speaker 1: basically you've got to skip so many steps of like having to like play really, really shitty shows and like doing all that stuff, which most people have had to do, But it's because you're taking the time of doing things right that you're having better things happen to you. So that's that's great.
Speaker 2: I've just always been like. You know.
Speaker 2: I never want to force people to like me, or feel like they have to like my stuff or that they should, or like I've never felt like you should like me, i deserve this amount of people. Like that feels so weird. So it's like you know, all I can do and I've always thought like it's never going to be great for me to pine after a specific like record label or like management or you know even venue or whatever, because it's just like I think everything comes back to relationships and you wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who isn't as equally invested as you are, because it just creates like the spirit and balance and power and not, yeah, and there's not like that mutual respect. So I think all you can do is, like you know, try and be your best and then hopefully something will pop up.
Speaker 1: Is there anything you want to mention to people listening to this?
Speaker 2: I hope you're having a good one. Do your dishes, you do your dishes, but also take care of yourself. Yeah, be nice to yourself. Like it's a weird clunky time out there. So yeah, take it, take it slow, be nice to yourself.
Speaker 1: So what do we got? What do we got next for you? We have, you have a few shows. Yes, you know the dates and places right off the top of your head.
Speaker 2: I think I do.
Speaker 1: Holy shit.
Speaker 2: Whoa, june 30th, cutting room Opening for this New Zealand artist.
Speaker 1: She's rad Called.
Speaker 2: Prince. Then we've got oh, maybe I don't know, no, i do July 9th, july 9th at the Bowery Electric. There's also going to be another show at Rockwood Music Hall in August, but I don't have that specific date. So that is to come.
Speaker 1: All right.
Speaker 2: Anything else? Yeah, no, no, thanks so much for doing this, yeah.
Speaker 1: This has been awesome.
Speaker 2: It's been a joy.
Speaker 1: Absolutely lovely, absolutely Kiki Better than I deserve All right We'll put that on the Yelp review for the show. Oh, good All right, we good, michael, we are.
Speaker 2: Cold, all right, good night. Yesterday I was looking at my other tiny little biggest.
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