ZPP. 62 - Phil SanGiacomo & Justin Sherrell of SOMNURI

This week on Zen Perry Project, Phil SanGiacomo & Justin Sherrell of the Brooklyn based heavy metal band SOMNURI reinforce our belief that the only thing better than two drummers chatting is three. About to embark on a North American Summer Tour and with their third album Desiderium set to release on July 21st, Phil and Justin talk everything from the most memorable thing they’ve had written on a kick drum to how a scary close call emboldened them to hold nothing back in their artistic pursuits. 



 

Transcript

Zen: 0:27

Thanks for being on the show today. We have Phil from some Nuri, how do you say your last name, san Jacomo? San Jacomo, ok, i was good, i was pretty sure that's how it's said, but I just didn't want to sound like a total asshole right out at the beginning.

Phil: 0:43

I've heard all the pronunciations so I wouldn't be offended.

Zen: 0:46

Yeah, and Justin should be joining us in a bit. He's a singer and guitarist and some some Nuri, let's talk about that. Where did the band name come from? Because Michael and I were talking about that And we're like I have no, i've never heard that word before.

Phil: 1:00

So we've actually been told by someone who speaks Romanian that it's. It's kind of a strange word even for that language, and the best translation I've heard is that it means sleeps So multiple times of having slept. So they slept would be the the context, but I could be butchering that as well, so it at the end of the day, it's phonetically pleasing.

Zen: 1:29

So it is. It's pleasing, that is. that is very true. That's a. I like that. That's kind of like the idea of like a like a fortnight of sleeping, just some weird word that only makes sense in another language, right, all in English, and I guess it doesn't even make so why Romanian? Oh, hey, look at this. Player two has entered the chat Justin's here.

Phil: 1:48

That's why they call him Justin Time.

Zen: 1:51

Oh shit, What's up, Justin?

Justin: 1:55

Ha, sorry about the weight.

Zen: 1:57

Oh, you're good.

Justin: 1:58

We're up and running and going. Awesome. How are you?

Zen: 2:02

I'm doing great. How are you doing today?

Justin: 2:04

Lovely.

Michael: 2:06

Where are you?

Zen: 2:08

Where are you?

Justin: 2:08

right now I'm on my roof.

Zen: 2:11

Hell yeah, it looks nice. I thought you were like Central Park or something like that, but that's not a boulder, that's, that's just a chimney behind you or whatever that is. I'm just waiting for the smoke to roll on. So we were just talking about Subnery and the name of the band, and I guess how it means sleeps in Romanian is that's what he said All right It's.

Justin: 2:32

You agree with that? Yeah, it's one of the rougher questions to answer, you know, because it's a good band name. I like to just lie and make up different meanings after every time somebody asked me.

Zen: 2:47

Yeah, totally, You can just say we just made it up to you. I would have been like, yeah, totally, That makes sense too. I mean, I would say for this genre people do make a lot of names and just people just go with it.

Phil: 2:58

So but the fact that it has a name that resembles something else in another language.

Zen: 3:02

You don't want to be that asshole and be like yeah, we made that up, right, yeah, well, cool, hey, thanks for being on the show, guys. Let's just go from the very start. How did, how did Subnery start as a band? When was the original origination?

Justin: 3:20

The twenty fifteen.

Phil: 3:23

Yeah, right around there Twenty fifteen Shared adjacent practice spaces and knew each other from playing in bands. Justin had a bunch of guitar ideas, As I mentioned before the podcast started rolling. He is also a drummer and a great musician and had a bunch of cool song ideas and wanted to try playing guitar in a band for once.

Michael: 3:49

OK cool.

Justin: 3:51

So I got I demoed out of maybe five songs drums, bass and guitar And it was awful. I was like I absolutely need a drummer who can do it. It was weird, like I could play drums in anybody else's band but I couldn't play drums in my own band, you know, to my own It was weird.

Zen: 4:10

Why do you think that is? You think you were just almost trying to like show up yourself and like kind of overdo it, or was it just some other weird mental block?

Justin: 4:18

I think I had all these kind of preconceived notions of what the drums should do And then I went to do it. I was like I can't even do this. It was just I don't know, and it kind of felt a little pretentious too, like I'm not ready for the one man solo record that I play everything on You know someday, totally, but it was not. I wasn't there. So it was really nice to hear what Phil and putting over a lot of it was way different ideas than what I would imagine the drums to be doing.

Phil: 4:46

So it's worked out. So you didn't. So you didn't have enough fills, is what you're saying.

Justin: 4:51

I was one fill short.

Zen: 4:55

Oh yeah, Just in time, we got one fill short. You guys are all freaking punning out today. I love that You're fire, i'll sell it.

Justin: 5:02

So I'm telling them I was just in time, i'm right.

Zen: 5:05

It was right, as you were joining it. You know I had a good laugh.

Michael: 5:09

Yeah, wow, i mean you had a really good face there And that was like at least like you were caught in, like a forever smile And then just gone.

Zen: 5:20

Well, i can't, i can't help that. Just a smile. Oh good, welcome back. Hey, thank you very much. Welcome back to my own show. Ok, where the hell was I? I really threw me off.

Michael: 5:32

Oh yeah, So you guys.

Zen: 5:33

Yeah, you guys got. Yes, you just adjacent studios. You're both together playing another band. Are you both from New York or Brooklyn? Well, from upstate New York, Western New York, OK, cool, And you guys moved down here. It was was your whole goal kind of to be musicians You can answer separately or together? Was that kind of what you wanted to do down here?

Phil: 5:55

I don't think it was a goal, so much as something I needed to do and, without sounding too pretentious and needed to get get into a different scene. Where we're from, there's not a huge pool of musicians. I mean, there's a lot of good musicians, but maybe for this type of stuff I was trying to do, i needed to expand. So I desperately wanted to get into a bigger scene And, yeah, immediately you start meeting people, you go to shows. There's a show happening every night, multiple shows happen every night, so it's pretty cool.

Justin: 6:26

Yeah, what about you, justin? I lived in. I moved from upstate, i'm close to Central New York And I had moved to Boston. I was playing in the band, moved to Boston, lived there for four years And it was fun. It definitely got my feet wet.

Justin: 6:45

I think it was nice to move to a smaller city before just jumping right into New York. And then when I moved to New York, it was definitely like wanted to find a band to play drums in. I'd only played drums in bands prior to that And it was really hard And I think it was really intimidating too of like man, all these bands I would go try out for really fucking good. And so I ended up doing like singer, songwriter, acoustic stuff, and it really was like the most challenging thing. It was this scariest thing, being a solo dude with a guitar in front of people, like you know. But I'm glad I did it. I think it ended up giving me the confidence that I could use later to, you know, start a band and play guitar in a band, you know. But yeah, i moved here to play music and just kind of didn't know what I was getting myself into, but glad I did, you know.

Zen: 7:37

Yeah, that's. that's super cool. I love how, instead of just like trying out for a bunch of bands, you're like I just got to go to an open mic. Screw it This guy, go for the guitar.

Justin: 7:46

Was doing like five open mics a week and sometimes two or three a night It was. It was awesome. And it's kind of that hustling mentality too, of like sometimes you get shows out of it. Sometimes you meet like minor musicians and that's actually where I met a musician And they're like yeah, i actually play metal and we're looking for a drummer. I was like there it is. I did it.

Zen: 8:08

You're never going to believe this, yeah.

Justin: 8:12

Like well, you just sing sensitive songs about heartbreak, yeah, yeah.

Zen: 8:20

That's hilarious. I love that. So who who does like? where does the idea for the writing kind of come in with this stuff? Because I guess you were. You were writing songs before. How does the whole band dynamic work for you guys in Sumnery?

Justin: 8:36

Well, i think I think it's always evolving too, right? I mean the first record, i feel like I had all those songs, most most of the songs I had. Basically the songs are at least good skeletons for, and that was our first record. The second record was you know ideas and Phil helping assemble and like really help write the songs of like. you know this part, you know it's like we don't need 20 minute songs. and then this this past record was was you know even more of that, and Phil bringing in guitar ideas as well and more lyric writing, more melody of like. you know how maybe some vocal melodies might work or different ideas, right? So the collaboration is kept, kept blossoming. you know more and more, each record, each song, really.

Zen: 9:29

Yeah, what about you, phil? So I get it says, at least on your Spotify, that you're also the producer of Sumnery. What does it mean to kind of be a producer, be the drummer in the band? What is your role? Is it like a? I don't know any and all thoughts for that.

Phil: 9:46

Yeah, I mean, I'm not like producing in the sense of, you know, like Rick Rubin sitting on the couch saying yes or no. It's more the actual recording production and just kind of you know, tracking vocals, tracking guitars, getting the best takes out of us, and myself included. So I'm kind of producing myself in a way too, doing a lot of pre-production for the records. You know, tempo mapping, everything. So it's a lot of like you know stuff that saves us racking up a huge recording budget at the end of the day. And then, yeah, I have a good idea of what you know vocals and where things should sit, and and, yeah, like Justin said, we're always evolving with it and whatever we can do, DIY on our own before we start. You know, spending money is ideal. So, whether we're creating the music we want to create and not being constrained by budgets and time and all that kind of stuff, Yeah, i absolutely agree with that.

Zen: 10:49

I think that's always the best way to go into the studio. It's really funny getting called to record and nobody has anything ready. And the engineer although they're getting paid a lot of money, they're still just like guys like yeah you're not really here.

Phil: 11:04

I have. I've heard all the horror stories from friends where the band is paid for the time and they don't even have any of the parts written and it's just like they're just sitting there to stand still.

Zen: 11:15

So yeah, it's not the 70s anymore where, like you, could just like hang around in a studio and just do a bunch of blow and you know so much weed and then just like hope that something will come out Well you, can You can do that. You can.

Justin: 11:29

You can do anything if you put your mind to it.

Zen: 11:32

Sure, yeah, never mind, you're right, you're right. So so you guys recorded both of your albums at Studio G and I was just kind of starting to read up on Studio G But I didn't want to do too much, but apparently it's more or less like a legendary spot for a lot of musicians. And why is that? And why is it What makes it so good?

Phil: 11:57

Well, the gear is obviously, you know, kind of first and foremost like what are they working with, what are the room sound like. But Justin had this friend, jeff Berner, who works there, and that was kind of the allure of the first couple of records is go track with someone we know And he just made it really smooth, really easy And and then, like I said, we kind of do guitars and vocals ourselves to take a little more time with it. But Studio G has always been very comfortable And, like I said, you know, top, top notch gear and the room sound great. This record we went to Silvercore, which is Gojira's home base and Joe's studio, and it was. It was awesome. We just needed a change. You know something different.

Phil: 12:45

Yeah but it was awesome.

Zen: 12:47

Yeah, and your Diablo is coming out July 21st, is that right? We got it. And Desiderium, what's the? what's the meaning behind that name? Did you guys make that word up, or is that a?

Phil: 13:03

go ahead.

Zen: 13:03

Justin.

Justin: 13:04

A bunch of vowels. No, i think the definition is like tense longing, you know, some other thing was like some other things that I was reading about. I can't remember how I came about it, but it was like this Irish poem. I want to say something like that, but it was the sense of longing for, specifically for a home that you never really had, i think was the first definition that I'd seen was like whoa, you know, and it kind of tied into a lot of the themes and the record of like you know, are you longing for this life that hasn't existed or that you don't know that hasn't happened yet?

Justin: 13:47

You know, this kind of like loop of like I get too heady, but it's like what is life, you know? what is what is our life experience, you know? are we, are we, are we living it now? Are we waiting, you know? are we just constantly hustling to wait to live? You know there's can go on forever, you know, and it always kind of the meaning kind of evolves over time. to the more I listen to some of the songs and even lyrics that I wrote, i'll be like holy shit, that means something different, you know. I think that's when you know it's, it's fun and people can interpret a lot of the lyrics and different themes the way they want to, and I love music that does that. you know it's not so like this, is it? this is what it means, nothing else.

Michael: 14:30

Yeah.

Zen: 14:32

I love that idea of like what is this thing that I feel like I'm missing from my life, but you have no idea what it is because you just kind of exactly, yeah, that's the human, that's the human condition in general. Yeah, grass is always greener, but yeah, they got what? what if it's not even grass you're looking at?

Justin: 14:50

Yeah, the hurry up and wait, you know. yeah, that's all those things of what do we in such a rush for? Let's just live the life right now, while we have it, you know, yeah.

Zen: 15:01

We're all gonna back. So I would say you, would you say you write most of the lyrics, or is this like kind of a more of a band effort for the stuff or your music?

Justin: 15:12

Just record I wrote all the lyrics, you know, and each record it becomes more you know, builds very on top of that stuff of kind of like all right, you know, what is. What is this about? What you know? do these lyrics make sense? Is this a real word? You know, but it's really kind of, you know, helped, i don't know. Everybody looks at lyrics in a different way and this, this record, even more so. I think it was a little bit on the farthest way, but let's this record even more so, of bringing in lyrical themes. You know, whole verses, you know, and I think it brings out the best for the song. When you, when you have multiple ideas, like, is that better than this? You know it's always about what's the best idea. When it's not, whose idea is that kind of thing, you know?

Zen: 16:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And what other sort of things were different between this album you just recorded and your last two other than you know, changing the, changing the space where you recorded it? What other sort of things have changed along your you know your band journey since 2015?

Phil: 16:29

We're on a different label now, so we got signed to Monarch.

Michael: 16:32

Heavy.

Phil: 16:34

And, yeah, very excited to work with them and put this thing out And I would say, more than anything, recording wise, we went with an engineer to mix this time, which you know was a little different in the past I had, i had mixed the records and knew they could be much better. So it was cool to work with, you know, a friend and colleague and Justin Mantuth at West End Studios in Kansas City And I've done a bunch of projects with him and it was like, man, we need, we need pro ears on this this time and wanted to take the vocal recording to the next level and, you know, production in general, just step it up. Yeah, i was the songwriting, like Justin was saying.

Zen: 17:16

I mean I'm surprised you did all. I mean the other two albums sound amazing, so that's pretty crazy that you're doing most of the mixing on that. Thank you.

Justin: 17:26

Yeah, so I mean. another thing that was different too is like using, at least for guitars, like the first two records, we just used my guitar amp through a cab right And that was, you know, and we layered and we you know kind of stacked and whatever. But this this time, you know, being in Go Jira studio, is like what's that amp sound like? What's that?

Justin: 17:48

amp sound like You know was able to kind of like have a little more fun and have that studio experience too with with some different options. I thought was was really you know, it was fun, you know, and that's what it's all about.

Zen: 17:59

Yeah, so if you get to actually have fun doing it, everything's going to come out better. That's super, super cool. That sounds like you guys had a really good experience. How long have you been recording this album Or, i guess, writing, recording whole process?

Phil: 18:17

The recording was about probably two months. We were in the studio for how many days, Justin Four?

Justin: 18:26

Yeah, but really you know three, yeah, yeah three and a half. Yeah, three and a half, Yeah, cause man two left us hanging. No, yeah, yeah.

Phil: 18:38

It's called four.

Zen: 18:40

Wait four days.

Phil: 18:41

Yeah, Yeah, So four days of tracking, And then obviously there was more days. We track bass in our own studio and vocals as well. So we took we take the longest time to record the vocals, make sure it's right, Make sure it's, you know, feels good, feels natural, And and then. But as far as songwriting and Justin always has ideas, I have ideas. We, you know, we kind of like sit on demos for a while and I'll take his guitar riffs and try to come up with some beats by myself or together, You know. So the ideas are always flowing And I think probably over the course of two years or so we were working on the ideas. But the songs came together with vocals and lyrics pretty, pretty quickly in the last month, really before it was due.

Zen: 19:31

Yeah.

Michael: 19:32

Yeah.

Zen: 19:32

Wow, i have a question about that. I'm I'm currently involved in recording like an EP right now, but it's probably the most involved I've been with an EP. Usually I'm so I'm a drummer and usually I just I'm a hired gun, so I'm like pretty far removed from any of that.

Zen: 19:51

But as I write more with my friends for what we're working on like. I'm realizing there's so many songs that we don't use. Would you say you use most of the songs that you write, or are you just constantly come up with new ideas? How far along do you get in a song before you abandon it? Any thoughts on that? This is a personal question, just curious about it. Sure.

Phil: 20:12

I don't think they ever get abandoned. I think you know there's songs on this record, like I said, that have been. You know the structure or the riffs have been around for a couple of years And maybe it just didn't, or maybe even like a riff, like one riff that was on a cell phone that you know I have buried somewhere in my phone. I'm like man, i know there's this awesome riff in there. I just have to search through hundreds of recordings to find that one. And so, yeah, there's always ideas. But I think yeah, sorry, i lost my train of thought there I think, yeah, there's always ideas, and it takes time, man, it's just like nothing is ever dead. I think we always have like a song that doesn't make the record because of the length of the vinyl and we end up using it like coils. There's a song we released last July and it was just too long and weird to fit on the last record, but it needed it. It needed to see the light of day.

Michael: 21:11

Yeah.

Zen: 21:11

That's cool to think of it like that. So you obviously have constraints with vinyl, which I think is just what. Is it Like? 42 minutes can go on on vinyl, i forget. There's like some weird numbers and like that Something like that 21, 22 aside.

Justin: 21:26

I think You don't want the degradation happening. You want the sonic quality to to withhold, you want to compress everything just to fit 30 songs on a record. I think it's also kind of good for us too, like, all right, let's not put on 15 songs at nine minutes length. You know it's like it's. It's a hindrance sometimes to be like oh man, how long is this song? Do we need to edit them down within the songwriting process. You know it's kind of a weird task. Like we had one song or two songs that didn't make this record, that we reported one. All right, which, yeah pretty awesome Yeah.

Justin: 22:10

Well, i know that's kind of always the goal of like let's write the songs as full as possible and feel good and we'll make that decision later. You know, like the like, the like, the parts, you know it's like the best songs make the record and the songs that fit the kind of motif and everything that makes the record. Yeah, i always kind of look forward to stumbling across those old riffs that didn't make the cut. But Paylice from this record was at the fourth song That had. You know, we kind of had the whole song from like our first record and Just kind of forgot about it. It was like just chilling there as a full song and I remember coming across it go like whoa, it's actually pretty cool. We should try and resurrect it and do something with it And it's, you know, it's one of the funner songs to play. Yeah.

Zen: 23:01

Yeah, what? actually? I was gonna say that too. What do you think is a For both of you? what do you think your favorite song to play live is at the moment? if you have one, one, two, three go.

Phil: 23:13

Man, i Mean I always love playing new stuff. So it's, you know, i It's not that I get sick of the old songs, but you know, obviously if you played it a bunch, live you. You want to do something different. So I really like playing remnants And I also like playing paramedesia. It's, it's a single we're about to release and it's just really big and sludgy and just fun and it's a Tickles my fancy.

Justin: 23:46

That's a tickler the rift. There's the two previous singles. I was gonna say was what a way to go? and that's the beginning. Both of those just feel like They're just fun rock songs, you know, each you know, and I have a solo in one, which I don't usually played solos, but it's like my time to shine. I got a solo, but they're both just like high energy, like I feel. Like You know, we've only been playing them live since May, so the run that we just did, you know, i think we've only played them live Five, five or six, maybe seven shows and each time it's like, man, i can't wait to play this tomorrow. Or, you know, like we're about to go on through, i can't wait to play this for a month straight. And you know, like those, those two first singles, i'm really enjoying playing right now.

Zen: 24:37

Hell Yeah, i mean I can't wait to see him live on the whenever I get that chance. Another question you have, like You have like six to eight different voices that you use In seminary, which is I. In my opinion, how the hell do you like had developed your, your voice and like kind of being articulate in different ways? and Because, like I would love to you were talking about earlier, you used to have like 20 minute versions of these songs or you used to write really long-ass songs. So I feel like you're, you're, you should go all over the place.

Zen: 25:14

So how did you kind of start learning to sing in all these different ways? or you know any and all thoughts I Thought we were talking about drums here.

Phil: 25:33

You sing like a drum. No, i mean.

Michael: 25:37

I don't want you to start overthinking it now.

Zen: 25:39

That would suck I.

Justin: 25:42

Don't know. I just, i consider it, you know, there's They're singing and then they're screaming and then there's an in-between, but I don't know it's. It's kind of like what it just happens for whatever the part calls for. You know and I don't really have an answer for that like Thank you, i guess it makes me sound like I have multiple personalities or something. I have six to eight different personalities And I guess that it kind of feels like that too. You know, you're kind of Channeling a particular emotion. When it comes to screams, you know, there's like kind of a higher thrashy scream and then there's sometimes like gutter, old doom, stuff, but really whatever is happening in the part, that just kind of Yeah, i don't know how we, how do we do that? You're the producer, yeah.

Phil: 26:38

I mean, to me that's, that's what makes the band interesting. I wouldn't, i Wouldn't be so interested in being in this kind of band It wasn't for Justin's vocals I think you know this the Like you said, the type of scream you know, like if I love hardcore, i love death metal, but like having to do the same kind of scream over and over. And obviously it's evolving. There's so many good vocalists out there.

Phil: 27:02

The dude from Lorna short has so many like crazy things he can do with his voice, and Even like a Mike Patton, you know, someone who could just like, in any second turn, turn on a dime and be a different character, a different person. And we've actually been criticized for it a little bit too. We've been called faceless, but some Almost almost isn't like where's the identity of the singer, where's the identity of the frontman or whatever, and it's just like that's just not what we do. We, like Justin said we catered to the part and try to, and, yeah, when we're recording we're like What's gonna work the best over this part, you know, and what's conveying the emotion we're trying to convey?

Zen: 27:46

Yeah, i mean you could really see the amount of work you guys put into The recording process when you watch live videos, like and that's, i think because you said you spent so much time on the vocals to get it Right, but I mean it's very like clear and you have like just so many small sections where the voice and the Like, the feeling, changes and it's like you guys are like morphing this story. So, anyway, that's, that's my team There you go. Thank you.

Michael: 28:12

Yeah absolutely.

Zen: 28:14

Uh, i would like to talk about some drum stuff, because it's rare that we have a drummer on, let alone two drummers on, you, so it looks out to be both about gear for a second. This is when people will usually a You know, chime, chime off the podcast, so we might keep the abbreviated. So you use some big-ass symbols. What are you? What are you rocking for your shows?

Phil: 28:40

Oh, I Guess they're. I guess they're big relatively. I Got 15 inch hats, hhx hats, they say Dave Weckel on underneath the top one, which is a kind of cool, i guess. And then I got a 19 inch aax on my left, 20 inch Aax on my right. Explosion crash, a 20 inch ride. I kind of like a Ride I can crash on. I crash on that a lot. That's an HHX evolution. And then I got this Holy oh zone thing from shabian as well. The Kind of the effects, quick crash, if you will yeah, go ahead.

Zen: 29:33

What are you rocking for drums?

Phil: 29:36

I got Thomas star classics walnut birch and, yeah, i just got this kit this year. I haven't had a new drum set in like 10 years, so I was like You know, coming out with a new record. We're gonna be doing some, some more touring this year and Yeah, took the plunge. Yeah and I got a. How is it brass snare it rules. Can't think of a star chronic.

Zen: 30:03

Yeah, those are, those are super rad.

Phil: 30:05

I see the scheme is on those drums, the color scheme. It's kind of like a I Don't know it's like a forest green with some with some charcoal in there. It's weird looking. I like it cool Justin.

Zen: 30:22

What was, what was your very first drum kit or What first drums that you played on? I was like this question. Cardboard boxes.

Justin: 30:31

Yeah, the first real drum set I got was a CB, cnb or whatever. And Can we swear on here?

Justin: 30:43

Oh, I've been swearing so yeah, my friend came over and it was like the first day I had a CNB right on the bass drum and he wrote cock and balls. I'm gonna see and be like dude and I don't see like play shows. And my bass drum said cock and balls. Like you know, like come on man, like there was no way I could get. It was a CB. Yeah, it was awesome and it was just a two rack tom floor, tom kick, and then I I played bass in the high school jazz band and like every rehearsal I would like I would take a symbol and I'll take a stand. Eventually I've worked up all these symbols. It was, you know, they were like the older zilder gyms with no prints, like you couldn't even tell That there was zilder and it was like little tiny prints. Yeah, that was my first kid and I think we ended up like burning it or something.

Zen: 31:50

That's pretty fun. Rocked the cockaball is drum set.

Justin: 31:52

It's gone, so like I'll stay reg next shit, yeah, yeah.

Zen: 32:00

What, what were both of your kind of first bands like what was a, where were you starting off? and it's like first memorable shows for both of you.

Phil: 32:11

We'll start with you, phil first memorable shows Probably this battle, the bands of my band, one pretty cool and Rochester, new York, and it was extremely New-medley.

Justin: 32:28

The only way yeah.

Phil: 32:31

How old are you? I was 15 and the dude who played guitar was a senior and and He actually ended up making Justin guitar. So it's kind of all come full circle. I grew up playing with that guy and We were so stoked we like drove back from this battle, the bands like probably beat a bunch of 30 year olds and like Everyone was pissed at us. You know, at the end of it, like when they announced us, everyone was like who the fuck is that band? and Yeah, we got out of there fast and drove home and we're super stoked. It's made the, made the local paper and everything rock on.

Zen: 33:12

Wait, did you say your bandmate made a guitar for Justin? Is that?

Phil: 33:17

so he. So he ended up getting into guitar building. And What's the?

Zen: 33:22

right word for that. What's it? Yeah, it's like that douchey name for it. Yeah, yeah, sorry, go on, he's a luthier, yeah there you go.

Michael: 33:37

So yeah, so what you?

Zen: 33:38

made a guitar for him. What was, what the hell?

Phil: 33:41

how that so he just got into building guitars and like he makes sort of like Gibson style guitars and has the The permits to do so and he just like, but he like, he fucks it all up. He like takes a design that you know a less ball purist would be like what the fuck is that thing You know? and he makes it his own and and so I brought you know his guitars and, justin, i said you got to check this guy's shit out. He makes really cool stuff. I bet he would make you a baritone, which is Justin's jam now. And, yeah, he just did a whole custom process. Justin, you can tell him how you Are. You guys came up with the design and everything.

Phil: 34:25

Well, I got bored quickly.

Justin: 34:34

Make it cool. Oh Anyway, i got into baritone guitars. I don't know our old bass player also. He kind of like Frankenstein guitars together and would always bring in these hideous things. Some of us. We ended up bringing one that was a bass, a bucket head, bucket head, baritone white SG. It was awesome, it was so cool and But it was Frankenstein together, just wasn't built very well, but it sounded great and the like neck felt great. So when Matt Matt banker from banker custom guitar.

Justin: 35:14

When he hit me up like Matt Hughes yep, sorry, that's not his real name, matt Hughes from banker custom guitar. Like dude, let's, let's make you a guitar, let's make you a proper one of a kind baritone that It's never been done before. I can. Yeah, i really like the neck and the radius of the bucket head SG. So I think I gave him the specs of that and he's like well, what kind of wood do you want? I have no idea. And he ended up getting this Honduran sinker mahogany. I guess he has like a guy in Honduras who dives into rivers and like pulls these trees that have been in the mud for like 300 years and gets the wood and makes guitars out of them. And it was like, yeah, let's do that. Yeah, like It was really, you know the, the?

Justin: 36:04

only legal totally legal, yeah, and it's I think it's You know, and that's the, I think, the responsible way, because it's like I don't think that would. You can't harvest that wood anymore, you know. It's like Corina and that kind of mahogany. I don't think you can cut down those trees anymore unless you're a piece of shit. So, like you know, he's like the loophole is getting that shit that's fallen into a river and has been like Preserved, being in mud for hundreds of years. That sounded super cool and then he kind of You know, we talked about this before, you know, we talked about color schemes and like let's just go one pickup, let's, you know. And he's like we, you know, we went back and forth, i don't know, 20 times about this, that and the other. It's kind of like you're the expert dude, just build it and make sure it looks awesome. Yeah, it's like I feel like a real guitar player having that thing you know I don't feel like a drummer playing guitar.

Zen: 37:01

Yeah, you're like this is made for me. So guy to go down losers. So what's the thing? so baritone is usually what they use for I mean, that's like the surf rock. Yeah, I know.

Justin: 37:17

Western stuff. They're typically in B standard, you know. But yeah, i'm surprised that more people who tuned down to like B and a and beyond don't use that. I mean, it was longer, it's, that's the same. It's basically like a fire, a Gibson firebird body shape, but it's like the exact same size of the Thunderbird, which is the base. Yeah, it's fucking huge. Anyway, it's awesome. I can talk about that guitar on a drum podcast all day.

Zen: 37:49

Yeah. Oh I mean, that sounds sick as fuck. That's cool. Yeah, that whole connection and It's a you know goes all the way back to the battle, the bands. I'm glad I asked about your first band. How about you? How about you, justin?

Justin: 38:03

Oh, really like the first shows we were playing, like we played at a few Venues and Syracuse and we're just, you know, we didn't know what we're doing, we're terrible. It just, you know, so unfair, like we didn't know how we did the thing where we'd like set up on stage, it, set up the drums on stage and tear down like one simple. You know we were like such nerds and But we started doing like graduation parties and like birthday parties in the summer. That ruled, like it was such a great, like playing outside is the best and like you know, it's like Half covers, half originals. You know we were playing God smack the pop approach, you know the good shit And like those to me were just like there was so much fun, you know, and really kind of was like I don't know it's so fun and and you're really like I want to, i want to take this the next step further and that you, you kind of I'll grow people who are like I just want to play God smack covers, man, you know.

Zen: 39:16

You gotta give way. Yeah, what's that song? whatever or whatever. Yeah, that's not good. I mean some of those first. So those first. You know, fucking new metal albums are just. They're just icing on the cake And I feel like new metal is almost having a resurgence right now. The stomach's not 100%, which I never thought I was gonna say probably like six years ago, but it's kind of bad.

Phil: 39:42

It was a. It was a dirty word for a while and It's definitely make it made it come back and we we played a show and and Right after we got done there was a new metal night and it was like a ton of fucking kids and like We're like, hey, we got some new metal influence in our music, or you might like it. They're like, yeah, whatever We're here to, we're here to dance to fucking saliva and corn and And whatever right.

Justin: 40:11

But yeah, there's like 2122 this all. It's like you weren't even alive when new metal happened, like it was so weird to see, so yeah.

Phil: 40:22

Yeah.

Michael: 40:23

I see my name is on those shows right. Right.

Zen: 40:26

Yeah.

Michael: 40:27

I guess.

Justin: 40:28

I'm gonna go to one Do it my own.

Phil: 40:31

My only hang up was that they were like selling the band shirts there, ah, and I was like. I was like, wait a minute, this is like a black market, like a bootleg version of the Marilyn Manson shirt or the or the deftone shirt or whatever. Like What's going on here. What's this operation you running here, miss?

Justin: 40:51

deck didn't give you the rights to that.

Zen: 40:56

Although it is st Vitus though. So, honestly, if any, if any venue in the world could pull that off or get the rights to sell their shit, it would be st Vitus but, yeah it was the promoters.

Michael: 41:04

Yeah, yeah, it wasn't the venue was.

Phil: 41:08

It was some, it was the promoters. But yeah, whatever, man, as long as kids are into heavy music, it doesn't matter. You know you can't be a gatekeeper or a leadist. You know That's how they're discovering. That's how I discovered heavier music. You know I was like listen to death sounds and stuff and then and then found the sugar or whatever it's it's it's. It's cool to see.

Zen: 41:30

Yeah, have you? have you both seen Michigan? But?

Michael: 41:36

oh yeah, no you're not seeing them what.

Justin: 41:42

I mean, I'm taking you on a date next time. We play Oz best early 2000s.

Zen: 41:50

Yeah, did they. I don't know, probably they did.

Michael: 41:57

If they did, they did, they did, they did. There's a. There's a beautiful video of them playing new millennium cyanide Christ, like in 2001, to a bunch of people who have no idea what they are about to get into, and amazing, i Yeah, truly.

Justin: 42:14

Yeah, well, i Went to all those Oz Fests like 99 through 2004, so if they played I probably had seen them, but I probably had to shit my pants and leave if I saw them, you know.

Zen: 42:29

What is happening quicker than usual at an Oz fest. Yeah, i mean they're. They're insane live. I actually never heard of them before. I saw them at aftershock festival and I just remember hearing them in the way distance And I was like what the fuck is that? it sounded like just a perpetual earthquake, quick happening at this festival and it was drawn to it like some weird fly. Yeah, anyway, i mean just for drummers to. It's like there's just absolutely Yeah, and it's good. It's good it. They're kind of a little I wouldn't say mainstream. But you know bill Burr the comedian. He's always talking about what shook it. Now It's just such a weird thing. Yeah, that's our he's.

Phil: 43:13

He's got some pretty cool tastes, you know yeah, i mean he's out with David.

Zen: 43:17

She's like my guy, that's like my, my I went to musicians Institute and he would come all the time and I bought scores. We've talked to a few times but I mean he fucking trains that guy. So, uh, cool Maybe it was just the shit.

Zen: 43:32

Yeah, he's great man. Yeah, okay. Oh man, i had a really good question. Where the hell did it go? Oh Yeah, you guys held trials. You have now four members, so you added Chris. I was what made you decide you wanted to kind of expand the sound, and what was the idea behind that and how to try out scope.

Phil: 43:55

So I mean, we had never done anything like a tryout, We had never even really advertised that we were looking for someone else. But I think we both knew that we wanted an additional member since the early days. It was, you know, and then we got kind of got labeled as this sort of power trio or but ultimately we always knew there needed to be another layer there and another musician Really. And once we found out Chris was a drummer as well, it sealed the deal.

Justin: 44:30

You're hitting the you play drums too getting this band.

Phil: 44:34

But you know, seriously, it's like he has a great. He has a great sense of rhythm And he's very tight with his playing and it's awesome. But I think it. You know, that's what's always. You know, justin writes great riffs, but he's also like a very tight player And so having two guys now playing the same riff very tightly is awesome. It's a stereo wall of sound.

Justin: 44:57

Yeah, yeah. It's certainly something that I think we we intended to have from the very beginning And it just never did. You know, it was three of us and it was like, all right, we're rolling. You know, it was hard enough to keep consistent bass players in the band that. You know. Especially after this record, it was like we're going to need someone else.

Justin: 45:21

You know, a lot of times if there was a difference, harmony or something happened on a record, i would use a loop pedal and try and play one thing and then play the other. It's really, you know, i think it could be done, not by me necessarily, but like it was just one of those things, like we need to really expand and kind of represent this record where there is more of that happening and go all the way. You know just kind of where we were with our band, of like let's, let's do the thing that we've said we're always going to do, let's get some fresh blood in here and kind of shake up our band and kind of like it really has been like really re-envigorating for us and like having, you know, another guy that won't stop playing guitar when Phil's trying to talk.

Phil: 46:16

If I hear one more pinch harmonic.

Zen: 46:21

You guys are all drummers too, so you're just like playing right over each other just on your respective instruments, whatever you got. Who can come up with the same thing?

Michael: 46:29

Yeah.

Zen: 46:31

What is a? I mean after band practice with the 3V there, do you, justin? you always just try to jump on the drums a little bit before you leave.

Justin: 46:40

I'm not telling you.

Phil: 46:44

Damn.

Michael: 46:45

So, you are playing my drums, i know that comes out at four.

Justin: 46:54

He pulls out the measuring tape. There's a ding in my stick. It's just three six things off.

Justin: 47:04

I haven't played drums since I don't know. It's been a while. I got a nine year old son and I take him over to our studio over our practice space, like on a rainy day or something like just to let him fucking go nuts. I got a set of extra cymbals so he could smash the shit out of him. You can see him tonight. But I love playing drums and never say never. But like you know, i just love playing guitar and drums are so much fun. I feel like that's where everybody should try to play drums in their life at some point. You know, i feel like guitar players, better guitar players.

Justin: 47:46

Bass players better bass players. Singers it's gonna be better if you've got a little drums in your life. You know it's so primitive and so like that instant gratification when you, when you fuck and hit that groove and you're slamming. There's nothing like it. A pinch harmonic is pretty cool.

Zen: 48:07

Yeah yeah, that's a great. Yeah, I agree. I mean, when I was teaching, i taught drum lessons for like five years and I taught so I thought, like dancers, i taught people who just wanted to just get more involved in the rhythm side of things And that was always a cool thing to see, especially when they, when they get that first, you know, beat number one that everybody learned inside of play and they can play, yeah, exactly, yeah. Well, billy Jean, back in black, that's. Those songs have made me more money than any other song, just Thanks.

Phil: 48:38

Rudd, My best students, my best drum students, were always piano players. I discovered this over time, for whatever reason. Just like being able to read music and do multiple things at once, I think just you know, trigger something in the brain and and they just picked it up so quick, almost too quick, because I'd be like, All right, well, I got to like.

Zen: 49:00

You know, this is you're just going to know everything too quickly And that's the yeah, you got to keep on sucking or else I have to start getting more curriculum. Yeah that was definitely a thought process for you when I was teaching.

Justin: 49:13

Milk your parents for money, dude, i had this kid that I taught the first drum.

Zen: 49:18

He never played drums before and I like taught him. On his table He was just patting it out And then within three months he was doing like stick tricks behind his head, throwing the stick up, catching it. Shit that I literally cannot do. And I was like you, little asshole, but you're going to make me listen.

Phil: 49:35

These kids grew up with YouTube as well, so they have, they just have so much knowledge, musical knowledge, at their fingertips And you can learn how to do anything at any time. You know, and it's it's. It's cool, but it's also scary, you know. It's like, yeah, there is some kid out there who will shred you into you know non-existence if they wanted to.

Phil: 49:55

But you know, there's something about like life experience to being a musician you know like getting out and experiencing things and making art, instead of just like owning your skills, all that's you know, and I think we're in this generation of like, you know, the solo artist really, of like someone who's just a star on Instagram. They're, they're absolutely have every job you can imagine. I don't know any other songs and I can't think of any of. You know what I mean. It's just like it's a different world. So it's cool to see up and coming bands more so for me than than necessarily the me me, me players.

Zen: 50:36

Oh, yeah, totally. I agree too. It's some of the best rumors on, you know, instagram and all that stuff. I'm like I don't who's ever listened to a song by you, though, like you're right, that was a cool trick. But yeah, that's always something we can like have a talk down with other musicians, be like Yeah, they, they suck. I mean, they haven't even got drunk in a show and had to figure out how to get home afterwards.

Zen: 50:56

Like they're missing out like clearly they've had to spend a fortune to just like buy gear and not get paid.

Phil: 51:04

Oh, you didn't leave your symbols two states away, Like how are you even a musician?

Zen: 51:09

Like come on, So yeah, um, we'll go on off of that. Justin, how are you feeling? You got hit by a car not that long ago And we just want to ask how you're doing in general And what was that whole experience like, if you're feeling like talking about it.

Justin: 51:36

That was awful, They're hit by a car No.

Michael: 51:40

I have not.

Justin: 51:41

I've been a bike messenger in New York City for 10 years maybe and I've been hit plenty of times, but never like totally wiped out. It was scary, you know, like I was pretty heavily concussed, yeah, and it was just like. You know, that's, it's my livelihood, it's my way of experiencing the city. You know, it's on a bike, it's I think it's the greatest way to experience the city. Until you get fucking KO'd, you know.

Justin: 52:17

I don't know I could go on about it because you know, each week it's a different kind of vibe, but it is one of those things that makes you feel grateful of like all right, i made it to the other side, i'm still alive, i can still play music, and for me, coming out of that, you know, and having the conversation about getting a fourth member, it was one of those things of like let's not wait anymore, Like let's do the things we said we were gonna do now. You know, instead of like maybe next year, maybe next record, like let's fucking put that try out meme out there With you know, like let's do the things. That it just kind of gives you. As scary as it is, it gives you that perspective that, like life can be gone, like fucking back you know and do the shit that you wanna do right now.

Justin: 53:07

And you know my brain was never super quick to begin with, but I think I'm back. You know it sucks that it happened the night of a really rad show. You know it was the night of the Julie Christmas show at St Vitus. It was awesome And then, yeah, but thank you for asking, i think I'm back.

Zen: 53:30

Well, good to have you back And, yeah, I'm glad that you know you're still able to play music and actually, like, do shows and-.

Justin: 53:37

We got a new guitar out of it.

Zen: 53:39

Yeah, you're like, yeah, just in case we need to sub somebody in really quick. Andy's a drummer, so Exactly, yeah, but that's pretty wild. I mean it's interesting to add that perspective in general. I'm sure it's kind of like just changed that. It's always interesting to hear about people who have experiences like that, because you kind of you can see it in their eyes. They're like yeah, this actually does mean something like go out, do the shit that you actually want to do, because you can talk to them forever With any adversity.

Justin: 54:08

You kind of have two choices, you know pack it up and fucking quit, or realize what you got and go on even harder. You know.

Zen: 54:15

Yeah, i just have a couple more questions for you guys. It's been super fun. What is each of your ideas of success? That's the question Where'd he go? Damn, i looked at him.

Justin: 54:30

Yeah.

Phil: 54:31

You know, it's all. It's obviously relative. I think, You know, for me it's always been getting this music to as many people as possible and connecting with people. I'm not a very, you know, extroverted person, so, like going to shows, playing shows, is my social time, you know. And yeah, it's fun connecting with a random stranger from somewhere who found your music on the internet and really loves your band And it's cool to have those conversations with people, and so that's a success in itself. And then, obviously, you know, keeping the business side of things going, like you know, playing shows, continuing to tour I think that's really the biggest goal for us is to continue to be on the road, and if we can do that, then we're being successful. And if that brings, you know, more monetary success as well, then that's cool. But ultimately, as long as we can keep this thing going and connecting with people, that's a success for me.

Zen: 55:37

Yeah, I like that. How about for you, Justin?

Justin: 55:43

I think you know being able to express yourself musically, you know, and look at a record or a song and be like that was exactly what or that came out how I wanted it, to Being able to write that song, that makes you feel a particular way. You know, being able to express yourself through music and feel is like I didn't know that's what I wanted when I started music. But it's happened a bunch of times. And like listening to this new record, desideria on July 21st on Monarch Heavy, listening to it, listening to it is like it gives me that feeling and it makes me feel like a kid again And it's like it just kind of rolls over and it reaffirms of like why music means so much to me other people's music, my own music.

Justin: 56:28

And secondly, i think every girlfriend that I've ever had has asked me the same question And my answer has always been like if I can travel the world through music and pay for my rent, that's success. You know what I mean. Like if music can give me these things in life and joy and to see the world and I can come home and still make rents, that's cool.

Zen: 56:56

Yeah, that's. yeah, i like how I'm asking the girlfriend question. that's a. I wrote a song about dude All right And another kind of the other side of that is what gives you any, what gives you doubts and how do you overcome them when it comes to just creating and putting stuff out there in the world.

Phil: 57:22

AI, I'm afraid of this AI stuff with. No, I'm just kidding As far as Sorry. Can you rephrase it a bit?

Zen: 57:34

Yeah. So if anything gives you kind of doubt about, like putting out music, do you ever have like a moment where you're like, yeah, i don't know if, like, what are we doing? What are we doing right now? Are we like still gonna go up in the van? Like what gives you doubts and how do you kind of overcome them in general, There's a ton of self-doubt.

Phil: 57:52

I think I think any musician would be lying if they said you know, i just know I'm gonna make it. You know, It's like and that's kind of the challenging part about the whole thing is overcoming that. You know, and some days it's more prevalent than others. But I think, like Justin was touching on it, if you can be proud of your music, that's just such a good first step, you know. And if you're questioning whether you're proud of your music, you're probably not.

Phil: 58:22

You're either not making the right music or you're doing it for the wrong reasons And so yeah, that's how I would dodge those internal thoughts of like you know, how are we gonna come up with this money to pay for this thing? for the record Or do you know like all that kind of stuff that goes into the business side of being in a band, like it all has to start with the music. for me anyway, Yeah.

Zen: 58:47

Have I just Yeah.

Justin: 58:49

I think you know early on, you like hear or read the statistic of like .0000001% of people playing music have any financial gain from it And I think I was like, yeah, i like those odds, you know. Like you know, if you're telling me that it's a bad idea and I can't do it, it makes you wanna do it even more.

Phil: 59:15

Yeah, i'm telling you, there's a chance.

Justin: 59:21

Yeah, it's a Lloyd Christmas mentality dude. You know I it's such a bad idea. you know It's such a it makes no sense. It's such a bad idea, nobody should do it, but it's the funnest thing in the world. So you know what? are you living for? Making, fucking? you know accounting, doing someone's taxes, or are you trying to like beat the odds, even if they're insurmountable?

Michael: 59:49

Yeah.

Justin: 59:50

So that kind of reality of doubt of like, hey, man, can we climb this mountain? Are we gonna go around it or go through it? I like that kind of challenge. You know It's hard enough writing music, you know, Yeah, it's hard enough to. But it's even harder to hope that other people like it too. Enough that you can keep. You know you can sustain your band and the collection of your mates and fucking keep doing it. It's the thrill. The thrill is always worth it.

Zen: 1:00:28

Yeah, i agree. I think that's well put, well put. Well, hey, we're at the end here. What, what do you have? So you have an album coming out. Why don't you just talk about your tour, talk about your album coming out. Give the people what they need to hear.

Phil: 1:00:45

Yeah, we're about to embark on a West Coast tour, predominantly with Telekinetic, yeti and Thinking Lizaveta, and, yeah, playing some awesome shows, and then the end of this month we're going to be out with Zayo and Arsicis, and so two totally different kinds of tours, really, as far as music goes, and we're excited about that. And yeah, we have an album coming out the 21st, like we mentioned, new single coming out on the 14th of July. So, yeah, a lot of stuff happening.

Zen: 1:01:19

Oh yeah, well, hey, this has been a pleasure getting to talk to both of you and I hope we get to meet you guys. Have a beer with you next show when you come to Brooklyn. Yeah, there's Michael. Yeah, i really appreciate it guys.

Justin: 1:01:34

Well, we'll have a record release show in August. End of August. Yeah, august 26th, that'll be the next local thing we do, i think. So August 26th at Union Pool. Okay, i guess we can talk about that. So yeah, we'd love to see you guys there.

Zen: 1:01:54

Yeah, michael, that will be there. It will. It's awesome. That sounds super fun. Yeah, that's gonna be amazing.

Michael: 1:02:00

We've already canceled all of our other plans in August Right now. Yeah, that's what I was doing. I was trying to screen off.

Zen: 1:02:08

What is it Ty? Well, cool. anything else, guys? Anything else you want to mention before we get off here, before we get off here? that should rephrase that. Before we get off. the Zoom call Got off before I got on. Yeah, that's always good, nice call and say to mine before a podcast.

Justin: 1:02:25

Thank you guys for having us Appreciate you checking out our music, and we appreciate the questions. I love talking to other musicians. It's a lot of fun, so thank you guys.

Zen: 1:02:36

Yeah, absolutely Well, we appreciate you guys And, yeah, we'll see you soon And we'll be keeping up with you and we can't wait for the new album And we'll see you when we see you. Yeah, awesome Thanks, dudes. Peace out, guys.

Phil: 1:02:48

Take care.