Life After Medicine: How To Make a Career Change, Beat Burnout & Find Your Purpose For Doctors

How To Infuse Play Into Your Life When Everything Feels Like a To-Do List with Dr. Dave Neale

• Chelsea Turgeon

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Do you ever feel stuck in a rut—like something’s missing, but you can’t quite name it?

Lately, I’ve been feeling this way in my life in Mexico City. After a powerful therapy session, I finally uncovered what was missing: play.

So naturally, I did what anyone would do in that situation... I called a professional. A play professional (yep, that’s a thing). My real-life friend, Dr. Dave Neale—a play researcher and game designer—joins me for a conversation/coaching session to help me figure out how to bring more play into my adult life.

And wow, did it open something up.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

  • Why adults resist play—and how to overcome that block
  • Tiny shifts to invite more play into your life (without needing more time or money)
  • How play can help dismantle perfectionism, fear, and everyday stress

Hit play to learn how infusing a little play into your day might just change... everything.

Register for Pivot Potentials Now >> https://coachchelsmd.com/summit/



Life After Medicine explores doctors' journey of finding purpose beyond their medical careers, addressing physician burnout, career changes, opportunities in non-clinical jobs for physicians and remote jobs within the healthcare system without being burned out, using medical training.

In this episode, you will learn how to infuse play into your life when everything feels like this giant to-do list.

Speaker 7:

Welcome to Life After Medicine, the podcast helping millennial health professionals leave the system and build a fulfilling career. I'm your host, Chelsea Turin, residency Dropout turned six, figure entrepreneur and World Traveler. I'll help you discover your unique path to making an impact without the burnout, because you were meant for more than 15 minute patient visits under fluorescent lights.

Welcome back to another episode of Life After Medicine. This episode is an interview slash coaching session slash conversation with one of my friends in real life who is a play professional, because that's a thing. He actually has his PhD in play from Cambridge University, and I honestly I got so much out of having it the first time, listening to it again while editing, some of the main things that you'll learn is why we feel this internal resistance to play and how to overcome that. The small shifts that you can make to start introducing play into your life that don't take up like significant amounts of time and energy and how play can be a powerful force for disrupting fear, perfectionism, stress response, and can actually produce better outcomes. But we can't care about the outcomes because then that's not playing. So you will learn so much in this conversation, and I'm so excited for you guys to listen in. Let's get to the show.

Speaker 2:

Hello, my loves Welcome back to another episode of Life After Medicine. Thank you so much for pressing play today. We are here with a very special guest. We're here with Professor Dave Neil. Who is a game designer and play researcher and we're gonna explore how to integrate play into your life, but actually how to integrate play into my life. So before we start, I wanna give you guys just a little context of this episode and how it came to be. So, Dave is one of my friends in real life and we've actually traveled together. I counted the countries before I got on. It's been seven countries. Mm-hmm. And some of them are quite wild. Wow. We've gotten Armenia. We've got a Mongolia, so like, those are not first

Speaker 5:

countries

Speaker 2:

and the reason that this episode came to be is actually because of a therapy session, because I was in therapy one day. It's like the end of March. Yeah, March 20th. And leading up until that, I had been starting to feel some kind of like restlessness. Like I've been to Mexico City for a while now, and I started to just feel restless. One of my tells when I'm like, oh, something's not right, is I'm scrolling through Airbnb at like two in the morning, and it's like I'm looking for some kind of escape. Like when I'm doing that, it's usually because. There's something off in my life and I wasn't quite sure what it is, what like, what it was. And when I went to therapy, he pretty quickly realized, he's like, well where's the play in your life? Like you don't have play. Um, and then it all kind of made sense.'cause the thing I was missing was like the nomad world and I was just feeling so much fomo and, and then I was like, okay, well when I'm in my nomad life, I do have more play. And so anyways, that is kind of how I realized there's a little bit of, there's a play deficit we'll say in my life. So as soon as I got off the call, I went to the expert himself and I was like, well, good, good thing I have someone who knows everything about play.

Speaker:

Absolutely everything. Yep.

Speaker 2:

And then, so I sent him a message. I'm just gonna reach you guys the message I sent. Um, okay. I am deeply missing Nomad world. I think I finally figured out what exactly I'm missing. It's play. I gave my therapist no credit.

Speaker 4:

I figured it all. I figured that out.

Speaker 2:

Like when I'm hanging out with you and Lucy and other nomads, it feels like it happens so effortlessly. But then when I'm here in Mexico City, I get so serious and adult-like I forget to have the play. So how do I start bringing play into my life here? Should I start a game meetup or something?

Speaker 4:

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:

So that was my message, and then

Speaker 3:

that's why we're here. Mm-hmm.

Speaker:

Well, it's interesting because it's the kind of thing I, quite a few people have asked me it and I remember, yeah, it's an interesting question and I've, I, I was like, oh yeah, that question that people have asked me before and I've given answers to it before and I couldn't quite think what they were, and I was like, yeah, I think it's a question I should think about a little bit more than I have been in the past because people. Keep asking me.

Speaker 2:

Mm-hmm. What is, that's what I, the question people ask you, like, is it just exactly what I said or like, what's the question? Yeah.

Speaker:

Kind of like how do I bring more play into my life a lot of the time'cause of the talks I give are about kind of some of the benefits of play and that kind of thing, and the things play can do for us. And then it's often at those talks where I do that. And then one of the questions I often get at the end is, how can I bring more play into my life? My life doesn't have much of it. When I thought about it and after your, you are saying, I was like, well an interesting way of approaching it would be to, um, almost. Not for me to just come up with some kind of definite answer, but almost to explore it with you by like, talking to you about it and, and thinking about possibilities for, uh, and options and ideas for introducing it and for you to kind of try it and to see what the effect was. Almost like a mini experiment with you as the sole subject.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's gonna be very generalizable for everyone. Yeah. Yeah. So this will be play researcher case study, but, but like when you're saying that it's like the, the question itself, if you're just doing the surface level, how can I bring more play into my life? It's like, oh, just do this, do that. Like there's all these like little surface level hacks you could give, but I think the deeper question is why am I feeling resistance to bringing flame? Like, like what's the barrier? Because it's not really like, what can I do?'cause I feel like that part is actually. Easy. Like just play, like, just go to the playground or like, you know, it's like the, the how to do it. Like yes, that's what we're asking, but really I think there's a deeper layer of like,

Speaker:

yes,

Speaker 2:

why are, why are we not?

Speaker:

Yes. Yeah, that's true. Definitely. Um, and it's, it's interesting because we feel, we feel, we kind of feel the benefits of play. It makes us feel good. It makes us. Laugh. It makes us joyful. It makes us bond, it makes us connect. And it has these kind of like, these deep roots in us, kind of deep, um, evolutionary and cultural roots. It, it sort of taps into something quite primal, And we kind of feel that, um, when we're in those playful spaces and moments. It can kind of take us back to our childhood a bit. That can be, a really nice experience to feel like a child again. So it has these, these Yeah. Benefits and yet somehow there's also this resistance we have a lot of the time. Yeah. And I think one of the big things that is, that blocks people is that. As adults, we tend to feel we don't have permission to play. We tend to feel we're not supposed to and that we're not allowed to. That's the kind of block, and the first response to, in a lot of context, to somebody who starts to be playful is for people to kind of be like, oh, what are they doing? And kind of turn away or block them out a little bit because there's this, oh, no, no, we're not allowed to do that. When you openly give people permission, then they're like, oh, okay. Now I wanna play and then they go with it. but yeah that's one thing which is a factor I think, and I've done, in some of my talks, I get the audience playing a game. And it's interesting to see the shift because you, when you start doing like a talk at something and you have this audience of a couple hundred people or whatever sitting looking at you, and they're all kind of, you know, sitting there, stationary. Serious staring, maybe taking notes, looking like listening. And then you like, are like, okay, now we're gonna do this game. And then some of'em have to stand up and they have to spin around and they have to put their arms in the air. And then they're like, and then they have to turn to the person next to them and suddenly the whole atmosphere in the room changes and there's kind of buzz. And then, and then when you look at'em afterwards, they're kind of. Smiling and they're sort of a bit more, uh, seem at ease with the people around them as well. And like there's this different buzz in the room and it's saying like, oh, we have permission to do other stuff than just sit and listen now.

Speaker 2:

I love the idea of permission to play. so I wanna put a pin in that and I wanna come back to all of these things. But first I want people to properly understand you. And I also don't know if I know this exact answer either. How did you get into play? how did you start researching clay? Where did that come from?

Speaker:

I spent quite a few years not really sure exactly what I wanted to do. Um. As a child, I'd been very into games. I'd played a lot. I'd also been into stories, writing creative stuff, and I'd kind of wanted to do a job, something like that. Cambridge University at that time you could do this master's that was in like, psychology and education. So, uh, I wanted to do that. I applied to do that and it was through that that I then really kind of really loved the research stuff and went on to do the PhD and my supervisor, um, for my PhD, uh, David Whiteread, he was very into play. Play was one of his big research things that he liked looking at, he's done consultancy for Lego, so I did a bit of consultancy for Lego as well, um, with him. And yeah, that just kind of steered me into that direction. At the same time as I also got into designing board games, which were primarily for adults. At the same time I got this kind of injection of play into the research I was doing and this game design thing. So kind of my life just became about types of play. Really.

Speaker 2:

So as a professional in the topic, how do you define play?

Speaker:

The main things that always like come up in the definitions in the literature tend to be, um. It's like fun and enjoyable. It's, done voluntarily. Done like for its own sake. It's not done to like achieve something. You do it because of the experience of play in and of itself. Um, and that last one is one of the most important ones and is very much why, like a professional, like. Some personal sports person is like, not playing. They're playing in the sense of playing a game. But they're not like playing. Um, whereas somebody on like a, a, a park, like kicking a ball around or whatever can be playing. Um, because in one case there's like no consequences to their sort of. Broader life if you're playing on a park and kicking the ball around, uh, based on the outcome really. But the professional, there's massive consequences. They're earning money from it. And so it's kind of, imagine you were like playing some kind of game with somebody that was kind of fun and and silly, and then you're suddenly told that the winner gets like a million dollars and suddenly everything will switch and it's no longer gonna feel like play. So

Speaker 2:

does that mean competition and play cannot coexist?

Speaker:

Uh, they can exist'cause like you and they often coexist. Um, but the, so the, the, the thing isn't the competition. The thing is, is more the, what the implications are of the result. And if the, if the competition is for something that is like substantially affects your life outside the play, it will stop being play because you'll be so focused on. The need to succeed and to win that you won't be in a play mindset. You'll be, you'll be in a, a very goal directed, very narrow focused mindset because you really want to be the one that gets there. And play is all about like not being massively goal directed, like potentially having a goal in mind, but you are prepared to like take the longer way round. You're prepared to try things out that aren't necessarily gonna be the best strategy, but you wanna see what happens if you do them. So play involves doing all these kind of things and you can't do that if. If the outcome is something you are desperate to achieve.

Speaker 2:

Okay. So I feel like this already is starting to unlock, like why we suck at play, or maybe I'll just talk why I suck at play. Okay. Because you're talking about like play mindset versus like a goal directed mindset.

Speaker:

Yes. Yeah. A very like focused goal directed mindset versus a play mindset kind of. When people think about play, they sometimes think about activities and you can obviously describe play activities. kicking a ball around, playing with like blocks as a kid or, you know, playing games. You can describe them. But then all of those things. Can be done and not be, you wouldn't, you would think they would not play. Right. And they, and there's also things that you would describe as work that could be done and yet would actually be play. So it's the mindset I think is the more important thing than the actual activity itself.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I love that definition because it just like, makes it more expansive and like, it's like play is a state of mind and it's less about mm-hmm. The physical thing that you're doing. It's less about what you're doing and more about how you're doing it.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

if you could describe like, the pillars of the play mindset what does that look like to put on a play mindset?

Speaker:

It has some links to kind of mindfulness because it is about the present experience and being like quite open to it and nonjudgmental about it. Um, it can be linked to idea, like this idea of reframing things because. It can be about changing your perspective on something that can otherwise be quite challenging or traumatic sometimes. Uh, plague can help us shift the way we're looking at things. Uh, it's about intrinsic reward.'cause it's doing it for its own sake. It's not doing it for like, I'm only doing this because it gives me something else. It's like, I'm doing this for it, like for this thing. It it's about bonding to some extent. Yeah. Obviously it can be something you do alone, but play is also. It's got, bonding is a big factor in it and the social aspect is very important. Uh, and yeah, then creativity also a big part of it's got it, it involves that kind of creative mindset because you are looking for different things, doing things in a different way. And then the process focused element of it, you are, it shifts the emphasis to like how you are acting, um, and the process of what you're doing rather than what you're achieving and the end goal of it. Yeah, it doesn't necessarily limit, like eliminate that end goal it just means that the focus is much more on the process, uh, and what that looks like and what happens when we play with that process and move things around rather than focusing on just getting to the goal.

Speaker 2:

I feel like there's like a level of like an unhinged element to it that makes it different than just like, I'm content and present in the moment. Like, like there's, yeah, some additional spice or something that makes it like, I'm not just happy to be here and like grateful for where I am, but there's like a. I don't know. Like an unhinged factor.

Speaker:

There is,'cause play is by its very nature. It's transgressive as well. And this is also the other thing, which I guess, oh, what does that mean? Um, uh, this is the other thing which I think sort of creates a bit of a barrier to it as well and why people are sometimes hesitant about it. Why it's kind of. Drummed out of us a bit as adults why it's not seen as appropriate in sort of certain contexts and often in the workplace and things like this is because it is by its nature, it's transgressive and it is almost kind of, it's potentially kind of dangerous. It's crossing boundaries. It's about being different. It's about pushing things, in kind of different and new directions and. So it's kind of exploratory. Um, and because you're kind of, it's this sort of self, um, intrinsically rewarding, self-motivated, um, way of, uh, exploring and expressing that has the capacity to uncover new ways of doing things. New perspectives, uh, new ways of looking at yourself, new ways of understanding the world. And because it has the capacity to do all those things, it also has the capacity to disrupt, um, the way we normally do things, the way we normally look at things. And therefore, in a sense, it's kind of dangerous and scary particularly, um, because, because it threatens the, the norm.

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh. Okay. So yeah, I feel like that's the other factor of like, okay, it's for its own reward. We're here, we're enjoying the moment. It's for its own sake, pur like, there's like a purposelessness to it. but then there's the transgressive equality to it. Mm-hmm. Which, when you said that, then I had a memory of, of your talk on Nomad Cruise where you're like, play is transgressive and you like, walked right into the audience or like you just like, you're like, I'm crossing a boundary. So then I remember. What are examples of that? Because like when you're saying it, it's like, wait, what are, are we making bombs or are we playing? But like, um, what is actually examples of transgression and disruption. Yeah. With clay.

Speaker:

It can be like on a, as a simple and small example, you can see that it can be about like kind of breaking rules, right? That can mean something simple as imagine you are playing a game. Like imagine you are playing chess and I. And suddenly you're like, wait a minute, what if we start moving all the pieces in this way instead? And suddenly, you've transgressed the rules of chess, you're trying out something crazy and different, and you're like, oh, wait a minute. What if we juggle the pieces and it's like, oh, that's not in the rules. Um, and then she's like, yeah, the first person to drop a piece loses, loses that piece or something. And then we carry on the game. You can basically say you're transgressing outside the normal bounds of it to find new things and new ways of doing it. Things that can be playful in a work environment. Like if somebody starts, you know, you've got the wheelie chairs and somebody starts sliding around the office on them, then they're being kind of playful, but also they're being bit transgressive.'cause it's like, you're not supposed to be doing that, Alan sit back in your little booth. Um a very interesting example also is, um. Uh, with like romance as well if you think about the early stage of a relationship, you've got a lot of flirting. And flirting is kind of playful. And what you're really doing there is. You are like crossing boundaries, right? You've got this unknown of another person. You don't know them, and you somehow have to get to know them. And how do you get to understand another person? Another person is essentially pretty frightening. They're different than you. They might have different viewpoints than you. And you have to somehow get, get there and understand them. And play gives us a way to do that. It gives us a way to cross that boundary into that other person, see them that feels safe. And this is what play can be very good at, is that you're not crossing a boundary in kind of a dangerous, scary way. You are crossing it in a safe way. And this is where something like I. A rollercoaster comes in, it's playful way of experiencing fear. And fear is normally like something you wanna avoid and it's terrifying. But this lets us cross that boundary into fear in a way that feels safe. And so when it comes to a lot of things in relationships, you know, a lot of people have a lot of fears around, um, particularly like intimacy and sex and things like that. And play can help sort of cross boundaries, um, that feel that we feel sometimes feel that bit of discomfort around, um, in a more. Um, I guess an sort of easier, more safe feeling way.

Speaker 2:

What I'm starting to realize is how important. The people are in this whole equation of like, and then like the permission piece because it's like there's some people where you have realized that like they kind of give you permission to play. It's almost like they're giving you permission to like be transgressive and disruptive and like unhinged in their presence. And like within that relationship you have like a context of play. If I'm like playing chess with someone and I start doing the juggling thing, which the way I do chess is, is not quite as disruptive, but I'm, I don't really like it. Chess, it's like so boring. And so then I'm like, I'm pretend to do speed chess, but like, I'm not actually professional enough to do like speed chess'cause I don't know anything, but I just prioritize action above any strategy. So I'm like, I don't care. What happens as long as we're taking action in the chess game and like, I love when I lose a pawn or whatever.'cause it's like something's happening. And like, if that's how, what I, so like when you play chess with me, that's what I do. But then it's like, there's some people who like indulge that and like they, they think it's funny or like they'll go along with it. Mm-hmm. But then other people who are like, you're not playing right. And like, they like Yeah. They'll hike it.

Speaker 5:

Yeah. Right. And, and that's like,

Speaker 2:

I mean, I, I rarely play chess, so that's not even a great example Uhhuh. But like in conversations, if you're just like gonna say something ridiculous. People are like, huh? Like they don't really react then it's like they're kind of not giving you permission to play.

Speaker:

So yeah, the people are obviously a big factor. I think perhaps like everybody is playful in some way inside in the right context. But there are some people who, you know, um, are playful in a lot more context and a lot more readily than others. As humans, because we're very social and we often follow like the, the, the crowd and all this kind of stuff. We, people often don't really think they have permission until they sort of see it.

Speaker 2:

I'm thinking it's like if you are the one being playful, you're like in the play mindset. It's like you can be a permission for other people to play. I need to just probably be the permission for other people, but then I need to first give myself permission to be the permission. Right? Like I need to first give myself permission. Yeah, yeah. To have a place mindset. That's the tricky.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And so then because it's being

Speaker:

the trailbla, it's being like the trailblaze of the first person, the person that like sticks their neck out.

Speaker 2:

That's good. Yeah.'cause yeah, I wanna be able to play in any context. Like I don't want to feel like only when I,'cause I have noticed that like there's certain people who are like play triggers for me in like a good way where it's like when I'm around these people I feel more playful and like we create a play environment together where we're like makeup. I have a friend here in Mexico City, we're like, the other day we just ran into each other and then we just started making up this reality TV show, which like, okay, it's like passport or partner and it's a whole thing where. You go on a first date and you have your suitcase with you, and you're either gonna move in with the person on the first date, or you're gonna take a flight to the next country. So anyway, we just made up this whole reality show we created. So it's like that's really playful, right? Mm-hmm. With that person. But it's like if I was in a conversation with someone else, it might be different. So then I think my question for me is like, how can I be able to tap into my own play state of mind? I. Anytime I want to, like, on demand regardless of who I'm around or like what I'm doing.

Speaker:

I, I think there are ways to look for like the playful opportunities in different contexts and in different activities, and that can be done kind of on an individual level and at a group level. We can introduce more play into our lives, sort of on a, on a individual level as well as, as well as social. Um, and often like with our hobbies, for example, some people engage in their hobbies and don't do that much play, there's big opportunities in photography for playfulness. You know, you can get in some really weird angles, take things, photographs of things you would never think of taking photographs of before, like get under a chair and take, I dunno, anything. There's like these opportunities to be really different in how we, um, approach things in our kind of leisure hobbies. And that can be done on an individual level and also on a group level. When you're doing any kind of group activity, you can often think of things like that. Is there something. Um, to be done here, that's a bit different. Can we just approach this in a different way or embellish it in a way that we don't normally do and just see what happens and have fun with it. Um, and like, I mean, we went to a karaoke with the grief I with here a few nights ago and like, um, part of that was I think a lot of the fun from that. Um. Came, I mean, karaoke is always kind of inherently playful, right? In a certain sense. But then there was also kind of like, we have multiple microphones. And so then people started like, like ad-libbing, like extra background parts and doing bits of talking or whatever. And like other things were thrown in there that wasn't just singing the lyrics on the screen. You know, a lot of the things we do have this kind of expected pattern and he must make like karaoke, which is sort of supposed to be like kind of funny and playful in, uh, in a lot of senses, has this kind of like, you stand there, you sing what's written on the screen, but it's like. You can go beyond that and you can find other things to do, and you've got a microphone. What can you do with a microphone? How many different noises can you make in a microphone? Don't just do the singing and the, and the words on the screen, you know? So there's always ways to look for these opportunities, I think. And if you're in a group and you start doing that kind start and often, and the other people are like, oh, that's in trouble. I'll try. And they kind of look for things as well. And you get this kind of buzz effect happening where people all start picking up on it and it amplifies.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's Walmart. And I think that's what I, I, that's what I love about being in those groups, like in the travel groups.'cause you're in, um, with Hecker Paradise or Noma right now. So it's like mm-hmm. You're with a group of people. And I think it's in those contexts of like remote workers all going together. It's like there's an adult summer camp context that is just created somehow. Um, and that's so fun. And that's when it comes really naturally because there's enough people bouncing in and out of the play mindset that I think it, like, it's just that. Transitive property of play, whatever that like, you just, you get it too. But then I'm here in Mexico City with all of these adults who are not in their permission to play mindset.

Speaker 5:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And like, so then, and it's like, yeah, I can look for opportunities to play anywhere and everywhere. Why am I not?

Speaker:

Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. Well, part of it probably comes down to the feeling that I would think something like. Um, that social context, that context there and with those people and you are kind of feeling that they don't want it and that it's not appropriate. It doesn't really fit with the vibe. Um. So that might be causing you resistance there? Um, I would think, does that seem like it makes sense? I think it's something like that.

Speaker 2:

I feel like that's a part of it. And, and then I think it's like I can only be the unhinged one for so long.'cause it's like sometimes I have moments where I'm doing that, but it's like mm-hmm. If no one's meeting me here. Yeah,

Speaker:

yeah, yeah. That's the trickier.

Speaker 2:

The other thing I'm wondering too is how does stress play into this? Like if I'm feeling extra stressed about different things, does that make me less likely to want to play? But then obviously play can relieve stress. So like how does, yeah. Like feeling stressed and kind of overwhelmed. How does that maybe factor my play mindset? Yeah,

Speaker:

play. Play can be very stress relieving. Um, but then also I. Yeah, I mean it's a, it's a difficult, complex relationship because you can also feel very stressed in, and if you play, it might even give you temporary respite, but then you're kind of like, oh no. Now it's like an hour later. And I even worse off than I, you know, it might be more stressed afterwards because you've used the time playing instead of doing the thing that you are stressed about. Um, so part of it depends on what you're stressed about, I suppose. And if you're stressed about something that is like. A particular work thing that has to be done, a particular deadline, whatever, then you have to kind of weigh up. Play. Play can still be beneficial because sometimes also it. It can trigger the creative juices and get us to see things in a slightly different way. And sometimes that will help us with a problem that we feel stuck on and it might inspire us and move us forward. But if you are, um, there's something, you know, you just need to sit down and kind of do and you're just kind of procrastinating putting off, that's when play is probably not a good idea because you're just gonna make it worse. You're gonna feel better temporarily and make it worse.

Speaker 2:

I think there might even be like limiting beliefs we have around play of like, it doesn't actually have to take up additional time if we don't want it to. Like I could just bring a more playful state of mind to whatever it is I'm doing. Um, and then I wonder if, like, the reason why I'm not is I'm just not. Being triggered into the state of play.'cause it is sort of like a state.

Speaker 5:

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And'cause I'm, I'm working with a coach right now to learn about flow and so one of the things she talks about is like a flow trigger. Yeah. And it's like the things that like help trigger you to get into a flow state and mm-hmm. It can be like anchors or like certain type of music and, and they're just sort of things that help trigger you. Like, it's like a cue of like, okay, it's time to go into flow. And so I wonder if that Yeah. Is would it is the same for play to have like play triggers and it can maybe be people or I don't, I don't know if this is something, yeah. Have you thought about this? Is this something you do play triggers? Is this a thing?

Speaker:

Um, well also to kind of, just to comment on the first thing you said too, I think the stress. Something that's stressing you out. Sometimes what you can do, like you said, is kind of play with that thing. Um, and, uh, which can remembering like the focus on process, uh, in a play mindset. often when we're stressed, we're very goal directed. I mean, that's kind of where stress comes from, right? You are, you are fixated on a particular outcome and achieving the outcome and you are. Mind is in panic mode, um, because it believes the outcome is kind of essential to your happiness and that you are potentially not gonna get it. All of that is completely antithetical to play.'cause play is like, um, I. No outcome is necessary for your happiness. Um, like there are a million different ways to be happy. So, um, this particular one thing is not gonna be the be all or end all of your happiness. Uh, you'll be able to find other things and it's more important to kind of appreciate where you are and like. Experience the moment and play with the things around you. So we're often fixed in this very goal directed, fixated state when we're really stressed. And sometimes if you start to think like, okay, I'm not really getting anywhere. I'm almost like wasting time. But what if I, instead of continuously banging my head kind of against the wall almost trying to get to this thing, what if I look at the problem or the thing I'm working on? And look at other parts of it and try doing things a different way and just try something that seems like it's not necessarily gonna get to that goal, and then you might find some new way of appreciating it and you might from that actually end up circling back to like, oh, now I find a different way to actually get to the goal. It might get you to a state of mind where you can more easily feel less stressed about the thing that's a possibility. Um, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And so then I think the question, is like How, how do you interrupt that pattern? Like when you're in the moment? Because it's like in the moment the stress pattern is very like predominant and it's very like, yeah. Fixated focus. How can we interrupt that way of thinking and move into a play state of mind

Speaker:

a big thing is, um, physical movement. I think play, play that like when our bodies are moving, it kind of. It feels kind of playful and often puts us into a, a bit of a play mindset because as kids play and body movement are very entwined together, a lot of the play you do as kids is, is very much like rough and tumble climbing things and, and jumping, dancing, whatever. So I think, um. Experiencing some kind of body movement can disrupt, help disrupt. And that's, you know, it's also true for exercise and stuff like that. It can have that kind of beneficial effect on shifting our, our mental state anyway. But playful kind of exercise I think is probably especially good at it.

Speaker 2:

Movement. That sounds like a really powerful'cause that's like already a powerful state changer. Like it can interrupt any sort of

Speaker 5:

mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:

Mood you're already in. And so then it's like, yes, movement. As a play trigger. I feel like that's really powerful. There's a, um, a YouTube person I watch, like Fitness Marshall, but he does like dance it. Yeah. And he is like, so playful. Like, it's almost like Zumba, but with like a ridiculous commentary the whole time. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5:

So it's

Speaker 2:

like whenever I do that, yeah. Obviously I get into play. Um, and that's super fun. So, okay. As we're kind of wrapping up our initial session, I wanna do some like, tangible takeaways for like mm-hmm. What I can start to apply in my life. Step one is like. Play state of mind. But then I think even before that, it's like committing that like internally of like, I want to cultivate a play state of mind. Like, I'm committed to my play state of mind. And then it's like, okay, what does the state of mind entail? Play state of mind. Um, and then like, how can I easily trigger myself to get into that when I forget. So that's sort of what I'm thinking right now.

Speaker:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker:

I wonder if one thing would be, um, I mean, kind of a benefit just for when we do the next call as much as anything else, but perhaps it would also just be good for you too, would be to like, like keep a record, like a kind of play journal or probably not that long, like a play page. just noting down like when you have a playful experience or when you, um, introduce, play into a situation. Perhaps the social situation, like write down what that was, write down how it, what the response was from other people and write down how you felt from it.

Speaker 2:

Okay. Like, I think that'd be

Speaker:

interesting to know.

Speaker 2:

Okay. So just starting off even more basic, like play tracking, almost like, yeah. Okay. So note like when I have playful experiences, what, like what I did or like what happened and then how I felt.

Speaker:

I think particularly those reactions.'cause there can be just play experiences that sort of just, you are like, oh, that just happened. And there can also be, if you sort of actively try to, you introduce, play into something like you're in a social situation and you do like the sort of, you start dancing a bit somewhere and you see if somebody else does and maybe somebody does, maybe somebody doesn't. But you could write down, you know, did a bit of dancing while we were waiting for this. This happened, I felt. Good about it because I was connecting with somebody or I felt it weird'cause nobody else joined in or whatever. I don't know. But that, like how does it feel when you try like introducing play in some spaces? Another thing that can be quite good for play is randomness in some way because mm-hmm. Randomness is, is again, it breaks the goal directedness of stuff, right? Like goal directness is all about like control and um, and precision and like going in a direction. And randomness is just. Chats that. So, um, I think any way you can introduce some randomness into something and surprise and difference, and that can be rolling a dice, um, or, you know, drawing cards for something. If you feel you wanna get into a play mindset and you're kind of on your own, for example, and you're doing a particular task, um, and it could be like, okay, I'm gonna break this by, instead of approaching this task in this way, I am gonna divide it into these things and I'm gonna randomly pick one that I'm gonna delve into. Like something that's gonna just make you approach it differently than normal, like randomized stuff, and then see what happens when you go at it from that other direction.

Speaker 2:

Okay. I like this idea of like, it's coming from me, like I'm introducing play and then kind of observing what happens through. Through me doing that and how I'm feeling about it. Um,'cause I feel like that does give me things to work with. Okay. So what are my goals? Um, that's the opposite of play. Whoops.

Speaker 4:

Yeah. What are my play goals? Best error. You've failed already, Chelsea. Okay. I need my

Speaker 3:

goal. Oh, shoot.

Speaker:

I guess like it's to try these things. Like we'll just go with that. See how far you, and some of them, it'll be about. You know, if the situation presents itself, like, like I said about the embellishing something or adding to something in a group situation where you're engaged in some activity, look for those opportunities. You could say something like, you'll try and do something, some kind of playful thing like every day and write it down. That could be something you do, you go for, it doesn't have to be that. It could be every other day, but also it's like. Don't beat yourself up if you don't do it. Okay. So at some I

Speaker 2:

have, I have look for opportunities to introduce play or be in a play state of mind every day. And then just. Observe what's happening, like track what's happening. And so for, for, for people listening, is this like their challenge too? Yeah. It can be, yeah, so if anyone wants to do the play challenge with me mm-hmm. What we will be doing is we will be looking for opportunities to introduce, play, cultivate, play state of mind every day, and then we'll be journaling about our experiences and then taking it from there,

So I hope you guys enjoyed that as much as I did. One of my favorite things I learned about how is play is transgressive. It's like crossing boundaries. There's that unhinged, unexpected quality to it. And the point of this episode is not just to talk about. Play, but to apply it in real life. So what I am currently doing is I'm looking for opportunities to introduce play into my life, and then I'm keeping a journal and just tracking like what's happening. And I've been doing this for about two weeks now, and I'm learning so much about play, and that's the challenge I have for you as well, is after listening to this episode. Take some of the shifts, the ideas, the things that Dave mentioned, and see if you can introduce, play into your life as well, whether it's dancing while you're in line at a bus stop juggling your chess pieces, or just finding these unhinged, unexpected ways to introduce play into your life. And I would love for you to send me a message like DM me on Instagram, send me an email and just let me know how it's going. I would love to hear about your play experiments, how you're introducing play. Let's all take this challenge together and let's be that permission to play for everyone else in our lives. Dave and I have another recording set up about a week, a week from tomorrow where we're gonna dive into more of like what happened for me as a introduced play. And so this will be a series that we're doing for the next few weeks and months, um, where we're really just infusing more play into our lives. So if you wanna follow along and you wanna participate in it, we would love to have you participate as well.