This week is all about sales and promotion. First, a panel on pandemic book promotion with author Lee Matthew Goldberg and Senior Digital Marketing Manager for Harlequin, Lindsey Reeder, moderated by TRF's own Brand Manager, Anne Sampson. Author Michelle Kim calls in to read a letter, and in our continuing in-house panels, agents Tasneem Motala, Kathryn Willms and Sam Hiyate discuss author platforms, moderated by Anne Sampson.
Subscribe to Tasneem's YouTube channel here: https://bit.ly/3B8UEcN
This week is all about sales and promotion. First, a panel on pandemic book promotion with author Lee Matthew Goldberg and Senior Digital Marketing Manager for Harlequin, Lindsey Reeder, moderated by TRF's own Brand Manager, Anne Sampson. Author Michelle Kim calls in to read a letter, and in our continuing in-house panels, agents Tasneem Motala, Kathryn Willms and Sam Hiyate discuss author platforms, moderated by Anne Sampson.
Subscribe to Tasneem's YouTube channel here: https://bit.ly/3B8UEcN
Hi, everyone, welcome to season two, episode four of Agent Provocateur. I'm Sam Hiyate, Chief Agent Provocateur at TRF, and today's episode is all about the most important thing in the publishing world. Well, the second most-- after we get you a book deal-- and that's making sales. First, we take a look at how the pandemic has changed book promotion, and how many of these new aspects will stick around long after the virus itself.
Anne Sampson & Panelists:I think we all miss the booze of in-person book events. That's like one of the perks, right?<laugh> Totally.
Sam Hiyate:Then we have a panel discussion about how important it is for an author to have platform.
Kathryn Willms:No one will ever find your book, unless you do exactly what we're talking about in this podcast-- actively sell that book to your connections, make more connections, then sell them the book.
Sam Hiyate:When the pandemic hit in early 2020, book publicists and marketers scrambled overnight to re-strategize book promotion. Suddenly book launches, in-person media interviews and signings-- all traditional tent polls of book promotion-- weren't possible. Two years later, it's time to take a look at what we've learned about book marketing and promotion during a pandemic. And see what, if any, of these new strategies are going to stick around.
Anne Sampson:Today, I'm joined by Lindsay Reeder, senior digital marketing manager at Harlequin. Hi Lindsay.
Lindsey Reeder:Hi, so nice to be here.
Anne Sampson:And I'm also joined by author Lee Matthew Goldberg, whose newest book Vanish Me, the final book in his Runaway Train trilogy will be published on February 10th. Hi Lee.
Lee Matthew Goldberg:Hi, thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to be a part of it.
Anne Sampson:Well, thank you both for being here. And I'm Anne Sampson, brand manager at The Rights Factory. However, in a previous life, I was a book publicist and I remember thinking at the beginning of the pandemic, Oh man, I am so glad that this is not my job anymore. Because I know how much planning goes into the promotion of a book and into the launch of a book. And I'm sure it was so devastating to see a lot of those plans just kind of flushed away. So maybe I'll start with you, Lindsey, because as a digital marketing manager, I'm sure a lot of eyes were pointed at you when that happened. So what was that pivot like for you?
Lindsey Reeder:It was extreme, uh<laugh> period. Um, I had just come into this role. Um, in my previous life, I was at Penguin Random House and had just started, didn't know anyone really. I'd only been at the company for four months and they said, We'll come back in two weeks, just head home and we'll figure it out. And then the world stopped and everybody was looking at digital marketing to say, What are we doing? How are we making it different? How do we keep book sales going? And there were so many conversations and meanwhile, the publicity team is canceling everything and all of that money is lost. And a lot of money was shifting over to our team in particular to kind of exemplify, get everybody talking about all of that. So it was just unlike anything I've ever been a part of before, if I'm being honest, in 14 years in publishing. It was crazy<laugh>.
Anne Sampson:And so Lee, you've had several books published kind of both before and during the pandemic. What kind of changes did you notice, with the promotion of your books?
Lee Matthew Goldberg:Yeah, I mean, huge changes. So with Vanish Me coming out next week, it'll be my sixth book that I put out during this pandemic. So I feel like I kind of know what's going on and how to promote a little bit. And yeah, everything was fully virtual, but in all honesty, like I had a book with St Martins. They were happy that I did a tour, but everything came out of my pocket. I was paying for the hotel and the plane and I really booked everything. And how many sales did that really add to, you know, 30 people would show up to an event, 40 people. So I've really kind of capitalized on virtual. I've had outside publicists, I've done a ton of virtual tours for all my books. And I've kind of learned like what works and what doesn't. Like, everything with this industry and this career, I throw everything at the wall and I see what sticks and basically what doesn't. And honestly a lot has really stuck during the pandemic in terms of promotion. And I feel like I'll use that, even, hopefully when we're out of this and we actually could be in person again, touring-- I'll still do virtual.
Anne Sampson:Great. Um, so do you think this, like maybe the shift to online events has opened you up Lee, to more readers to your book? Like people that you wouldn't have been able to reach before with online events?
Lee Matthew Goldberg:Yeah, absolutely. I've focused a lot also on like Instagram. And I have an outside publicist. He's like a teen, he's like a kid. Like I pay him to just find me Insta followers and send the book out to them and then they promote it and it works great. Sometimes 200 people respond, 300 people, 400 people. It was never really something I had thought to really do before. And then in addition, I run a reading series, Guerrilla Lit reading series. Obviously we couldn't do that in person. We've done that virtual the whole time. And what was great about that, is we weren't only taking authors from New York City where I am. We had authors from London and sort of all over the place that were able to participate as well. And in the future we'll always keep it hybrid. So we'll be able to kind of have hopefully in person, but we also, in March, when we come up again, we'll have an author who's, you know, far away as well to be able to participate.
Anne Sampson:And what about you, Lindsey? Do you think you've been able to draw on more readers because you work in Canada and the U.S., right? For your books?
Lindsey Reeder:That's correct. Yes. Yeah. It was originally quite hard because I think every author that I've worked with was going out and doing tons of free things. And from a publisher's perspective, we're looking at it kind of overall of like how do we make a book sale? And they're giving away so much content for free because everything had-- the ground had fallen out from underneath them. So they were like, I gotta do something. I'm home. I'll just jump on Instagram live. And I don't know if you guys remember at the like start of the pandemic every time you opened Instagram, there was like eight lives happening and now there's only one, but we're back to that.<laugh> But I do, I think that the big question that we as a publisher were having, was talking about how do we make sales, how do we ticket these events? And it feels different than joining your exercise class for free every night, you know, those kinds of things. So how could we make it an experience 2.0, as opposed to something you could watch for free? And I think that was a big part of the conversations we were having overall.
Anne Sampson:So how do you make an experience out of something online?
Lindsey Reeder:There's different ways. We've done a couple of things. And Lee, you might have different experiences too, but we did a couple of, a lot of, signings, book plates and things like that and going out packages, but that gets very costly, very quickly. Things like that. We had one event that, it was for Mother's Day and you could bring your mom or someone that's like a mom in your life, to come and meet three different authors. And the ticket was like 15 bucks or something like that. And then somebody got a chance to win all three books at the end. Things like that, something that was more of an experience, but then there's that, and I'm sure we'll probably touch on this, but that fatigue, that Zoom fatigue. I've done this, I've sat in eight hours of meetings all day and now I'm on Zoom at night. Like it was, there was exhaust too. So it was that ebb and flow of trying to figure out what was different. And why would someone show up?
Anne Sampson:So Lee, it sounds like you're very happy with the online events. Would you even want to go back to in-person or how are you...?
Lee Matthew Goldberg:Oh yeah, no, I miss in-person so much. Like, I'm over Zoom. You know, what I meant more is to just find some kind of middle ground and hybrid. Um, you know, and especially if you're not an author, who's like an A-list author, that has so much marketing money behind them. You know, in all honesty, it's like, how much are you really doing outside of virtual anyway? So you know, for an author like myself until I reach that level, hopefully, yeah. Like, I think I have-- we're about to announce like a five book series that I have coming out. So that's all coming out in the second half of the year. And hopefully with that, I'll be able to maybe kind of book some in-person events because you know, you miss that feel of like fans actually coming, friends, family. Signing books, like just the smell of books around you. It doesn't quite compete online. Honestly.
Lindsey Reeder:I would say, and on the readers community, I'll just speak on behalf of all of them. I think that that appetite for readers is there too, like on the flip side, authors want it, but I know the community is-- they miss the experience of talking to an author, getting that signature in front of them. You know, even launch parties. I miss launch parties. I know the community misses it. It feels so special.
Lee Matthew Goldberg:Yeah.
Lindsey Reeder:I don't think any of this will ever go away from this industry. I know like every time there's a new thing-- adult coloring book, an e-book an audio book, the industry kind of, it peters out after a while. And it's the same thing that we all love and know about books, which is that consistency of just turning the page and talking to the people that wrote the words.
Lee Matthew Goldberg:So I did a launch party for the first book in the YA Series, Runaway Train. And it was just as Delta kind of hit New York and kind of took over in the summer. And I was like, at that, I'm just going to do it in Central Park, outside.
Anne Sampson:Amazing.
Lee Matthew Goldberg:Friends and family came, we had about 30, 35 people. There was like a teacher's party going on and they gave us all their booze and food and then they bought some of the books. And it was wonderful. And it was like, I could feel even from friends and family who were, you know, just came because they loved me that they missed, like in person things. So I feel like there's a way kind of around it in ways, even if you can't be like in a bookstore. As long as the weather's nice and you have a park nearby, bring the booze and yeah, you can have an event.
Lindsey Reeder:There's always so much booze.
Lee Matthew Goldberg:There's always so much booze. I still actually have, they were like rose in a can. And they gave me so much. I'm like, I can't drink that. Yeah. I don't even drink, really.
Lindsey Reeder:This took a turn
Lee Matthew Goldberg:<laugh> Yeah, it took a turn.
Anne Sampson:I think we all miss the booze of in-person book events.
Lee Matthew Goldberg:Yes.
Anne Sampson:That's like one of the perks, right.<laugh>.
Lindsey Reeder:Totally.
Anne Sampson:Of publishing events. So a lot of authors struggle with self-promotion, especially online. Both of you are really active on social media. How do you get over that initial, like anxiety, of putting yourself out there, Lee, do you want to start?
Lee Matthew Goldberg:Sure. Yeah. I mean, at my core I dislike social media and I don't enjoy it. And it's something as an author, I've just learned to accept and get over it and try to find what I enjoy with it. So when I'm interacting with somebody who's a reader or in the industry or my other side, sort of the Hollywood side and people-- I'm into it. And you try to kind of balance your promotion with, life stuff and stuff that's not just about books, so you're not just this robot. That's just like, Buy my book, buy my book, buy my book over and over again. So it's kind of finding that middle ground. And I think, you know, the writer's community on places like Instagram and Twitter, so supportive and everybody really lifts-- there's literally a hashtag#writerslift and it's purpose is lifting up writers. So you could find your kind of people on it as much as possible. And I would say, do what you feel comfortable with, you know, and I don't know, I devote maybe like 20 minutes a day to it. Like it's not that difficult in all honesty and I'm moving away from Facebook because that I'm finding more toxic, and doesn't really help anything. And just kind of, you know, people tooting their own horn, kind of.
Lindsey Reeder:Yeah, I think it's, I don't know, like that's exactly what I always tell authors. Do what makes you feel the most comfortable. Going on camera, forcing it? The second it feels inauthentic, like the community will know, and then it's forced. So they know someone asks you to do it-- going to the places where you feel the most comfortable. I think you even with TikTok in the pandemic as a whole, I think every author was like in my inbox and, Should I get on TikTok? What do I do on TikTok? The answer is if you're not ready for it, don't do it. Go where you're comfortable and find your footing there and everything else falls into place. You don't have to do everything because you'll start to spread yourself too thin. So Lee, I like your, you know, 20 minutes, all you need kind of thing. And that, in a lot of ways, it can feel like a part-time job if you let it<laugh>.
Lee Matthew Goldberg:Yeah.
Lindsey Reeder:But it doesn't have to.
Lee Matthew Goldberg:Yeah. I think that's great. TikTok is my next sort of hill that I'll climb.
Lindsey Reeder:Especially with YA books, you have to.
Lee Matthew Goldberg:I know. I tried and I was doing readings and I was like, I don't think that's really what works. It has to be like quicker and, you know, have a little bit more like pizazz to it, I guess. I don't know. I'm 44 years old.<laugh> but yeah, I think it's like find your niche and, you know, try to enjoy it as much as possible because people aren't stupid and they'll they'll glean if you're like not into it.
Anne Sampson:Yeah. I think authenticity online is the one thing people can sniff out in-- inauthenticity. Mm-hmm<affirmative>, mm-hmm<affirmative> so quickly. Um, so for both of you, is there one pandemic change or if you had to choose one pandemic change to keep, going into a kind of post-pandemic world, what would that be in book promotion? Lindsay?
Lindsey Reeder:Oh, that's such a good question. I definitely, I'm gonna say two things really quickly: hybrid everything. I think it just takes it to the next level, and for those people that aren't able to make it out to New York for an event or to Toronto, it just opens up the door for everybody. So I love that kind of piece of it. It has to be done well, though. So that's really important. And then I think the other thing is we've moved really into a virtual world and it's no longer necessarily like you can't not know what's going on on the Internet. So I, as somebody who looks after a digital marketing team, I'm so glad that we're having different conversations now. And we're not the last person on the agenda anymore. It's just like, Oh yeah, social media. You know, I think now I think the conversation's just shifted in a big way. So that's really exciting for my part of the division.
Lee Matthew Goldberg:Yeah. I would agree 100% hybrid everything sort of from now on and you know, I mean embrace it, it just gives you more, a bigger opportunity to promote your book, which is, you know, really what nobody could be JD Salinger anymore. Like you have to promote your book. It's just like the world we live in<laugh>. And I would say, leaning for myself really into like, Instagram tours and paying companies who do it right to do it and you know, really getting it out there because that's where I've seen the biggest like bump for my thriller books, for my YA books. You know, I work with like three or four, I think different ones. And they range in price, but I feel like it really gets the word out there and then you see people like, oh my God, I heard about that book from another tour and et cetera. So for me that's something I'll always keep. Yeah.
Anne Sampson:Great. Well, thank you so much for both being here today. It was a great conversation.
Lee Matthew Goldberg:Of course. Thanks so much for having me and great to meet you too, Lindsay.
Lindsey Reeder:Yeah. Nice to meet you. Thanks for having me.
Sam Hiyate:Isn't the sky always falling in the publishing industry? So why do we keep doing it? For Michelle Kim, author of the middle grade novel Running Through Sprinklers, it's moments like these.
Michelle Kim:Okay. I have to read you this letter I got from this girl. I went to school with her dad in grade-- like we were in grade five or six or seven or something together. And he showed up at one of my readings and I signed a copy for his daughter. And he contacted me saying that his daughter wrote me a letter and he has no idea what, what it says, but that she wants to mail it to me. So I just got it. It says: Dear Michelle Kim, Hi. I'm not sure if you know who I am, but I think, you know, my dad, Keith Murray, I'm Mackenzie. Anyways, I'm a fan of yours. Exclamation mark. I may not follow much of your work, but I've read, reread and read again, your book, Running Through Sprinklers. It's amazing. I relate to the-- I relate to Sarah in so many ways. Exclamation mark. A real masterpiece, period.<laugh> I also like to write stories. I'm actually working on a fantasy novel, exclamation mark. I would like some tips. I'm not sure if you will write back, but I hope you will, exclamation mark. You're a big inspiration for me. Exclamation mark. I'm really happy to own a signed copy of your book. Thank you, Michelle Kim, exclamation mark. Mackenzie Murray, age 11. And she drew a picture of herself.
Sam Hiyate:Do you have a moment? And by moment we mean like two minutes tops. That explains why you keep on keeping on, in the wonderful world of books. If so, record it on your phone, send the file to us and we'll see if we can't use it on the show. It seems today. one of the most common pieces of advice thrown to authors is to build your platform. How big is your platform? What's your platform? So now we're telling authors to be masters of their craft, professional performers who can bring their work to life during a reading, excellent networkers, because we all know it's about who you know, and on top of that self-marketing prodigies online, that's a lot. Just how important is this author platform? To figure it out, we've convened this panel to talk about its importance.
Anne Sampson:I'm Anne Sampson, brand manager of The Rights Factory. And today I'm joined by TRF agent, Katherine Willms.
Kathryn Willms:Hello.
Anne Sampson:TRF agent and burgeoning YouTuber, Tasneem Motala.
Tasneem Motala:Hello.
Anne Sampson:And the agent provocateur himself, CEO of The Rights Factory, Sam Hiyate.
Sam Hiyate:Hello, Anne. Thanks so much. And I'd love this swap. Usually I'm in your role, but I'm enjoying being like, a panelist today.
Anne Sampson:You get to answer my questions today.<laugh>.
Sam Hiyate:Uh oh.
Anne Sampson:All right, so to kick it off, I guess just so we're all on the same page. What, from your perspective is a platform or is makes a good author platform. So I'm gonna throw it to Kathryn first.
Kathryn Willms:Thanks, Anne. Yeah, it's actually a question I've thought about a lot, since becoming a nonfiction agent. And prior to this, when I was a hybrid publisher, I worked with authors on proposals. I'd just be, like, put in your Facebook followers and call it a day. But thanks to Sam and the other TRF agents, now I'm like, okay, that section of the proposal is not only really important, but also requires creativity and cleverness. Especially when your list does not include Addison Rae or Cristiano Ronaldo, who did you know-- is the most followed person on Instagram and Facebook in the world. And as such, I'm sure would want-- write a wonderful book! Call me Chris< laugh>. U m, but to me a platform is simply the connections a n author has to their potential audience. So, sure a social media following, but for some editors, a better indication is subscribers to a newsletter. An email list writers have collected through their website or their work. I've also seen a platform description in a proposal that was simply three pages of very famous names, representing people that the author knew or who had worked with-- journalists and political types know a lot of people. And it's fair to piggyback off people who do have more Established platforms. If there's an overlap in audience, you have reason to think that they'll want to help promote your book. So yeah, for platform, I think you're simply asking, how are you going to tell people about your book? Who are you going to tell and like, are you visible to your audience? So just briefly, the first book I sold was by a genealogist. And she told me she's super active in this huge online genealogical community. So we put that in every proposal and last week she was in the Wall Street Journal, helping a Holocaust orphan learn who he was and then people have started pre-ordering her book-- that's not out until June. And I have another author that may or may not be on a billboard. So that's a very literal interpretation of platform. So I think for this stuff, we're just looking for an angle and it's actually-- I'm starting to realize-- one of the fun parts of agenting.
Anne Sampson:Yeah, I think when I was a publicist, one of the first questions, you know, when I was first meeting with an author to start working on the publicity campaign for the book was just like, who do you know? Like send me a list of everyone that you know, everyone you've worked with who might, you know, have some sort of platform or have some sort of ability to help promote you. And whether that was, you know, I've worked with this media outlet before, I've written for this publication, I've been on this podcast before. My friend is the editor of this magazine or my friend has a, you know, TikTok account with a hundred thousand followers. Like any-- all of that-- becomes part of your platform. And is something that a publicist can use down the line to eventually help you promote your book.
Sam Hiyate:What I want to say is that I think generally when I speak to writers about platform, I use the word"community" as kind of like general term to say, depending on how big and specific your community is, that could really help the argument for the book. And so in a way, when publishers are coming up with their PNLs and they're trying to figure out how many copies they going to sell, that's the part that they never know, like how many books are we going to sell? It's always a guess, they use comparable titles. Yes. But if they have numbers from you, specific numbers about how big your community is, and it's-- it's weird for somebody because what you're trying to do is monetize your community. So it's like, okay, well, this is how many people I know. How many people would buy a book? And if you could-- if they could-- just answer that question, this platform stuff, wouldn't be there. It's like how many orders can you guarantee your friends and family and community and people on your mailing list and your social media followers, blah, blah, blah, the whole thing. How many can you guarantee they're gonna buy? And so in lieu of that, the publishers want to see that you've actually got some of that, you know, I mean, there's also the idea of credibility, that you're being followed already for. And that's kind of like a litmus test to them, but it's almost like how much of your community is monetizable. So that's always my short form for what a platform is.
Anne Sampson:So do you need then a platform to get an agent or to sell a book? Like, is that a consideration for you, Sam, when you're signing a client?
Sam Hiyate:For non-fiction-- it's especially like non-fiction where it's based on your expertise. I think memoirs are a little different because a memoir can be just a great story. So memoirs are special, but in general for prescriptive nonfiction or even certain types of narrative nonfiction, I feel like the platform is what sells it because the platform is kind of like a guarantee of readership.
Anne Sampson:Tasneem is someone who's like actively building a client list. Like, what are you looking for when a client is-- a potential client is-- pitching you themselves. Are you looking at their platform?
Tasneem Motala:Honestly, I'm not, because I deal mostly with fictional books, not nonfiction. So with fiction you basically just have to focus on writing really well. And if you're writing's good, then I'm interested. I don't really look at their platform so much as I look at their writing.
Kathryn Willms:Yeah. I find the same thing. You know, getting started as an agent, good writing and good ideas, trump, trump, all. But increasingly as a person that works with non-fiction, I think it's really important that an author's willing to do the platform work and that's becoming more important to me. And I'm thinking more about that because, I think that writers, it's actually good for them to be kind of be realistic, that the way you make money in this industry is not to write the books is to sell them and having that sort of lens on it. I think sometimes is, is the right sort of lens to at some point in the process, to start thinking about that, that part of the process
Sam Hiyate:Building a platform has become a whole world onto itself, where there are multiple books devoted to it. There's courses, there's online, there's a Masterclass. If you go on, you can go on Masterclass and somebody will teach you how to build your platform. So they know this is an essential thing for authors. And so it's turned into like everything else, another thing that the author has to pay for before they get published. Unfortunately. So from my point of view, if I like somebody's work and I think it's marketable and, and there has to be a certain level of quality to it and integrity, I will work with them on a platform-- if they're open to it. Sometimes they'll say, You know what? Like, this is complicated. I have to do all these things and then it might still not happen. And like, I'm just gonna self-publish. So there, there is always that option.
Anne Sampson:So have you guys noticed any particular trends in what types of platforms are useful for even like fiction versus non-fiction authors? Like what are-- is there anything people really want to acquire right now? What have you noticed, Sam?
Sam Hiyate:I think TikTok is selling a<bleep> of a lot of books. I have to bleep that out, I just realized<laugh>, uh, we're not a swearing podcast, but I feel like, TikTok is huge. I like I had a proposal that I went out with and the author had a strong TikTok following and some of the posts had gone viral and reached in the seven figures, you know, like over a million listens and views on TikTok. And so that was very compelling to the publishers because everything else was there, it was a great concept. I mean, a brilliant concept actually. And it was an author who was very credentialed to do the book, but I think that was the kind of final piece that they're looking for. And when you have all three of those pieces, they can come in with a strong offer and really get excited about the book because everybody in the Pub board will get excited about it. It's not like a case where some people might say, I really love this. And the other people are like, How are we going to sell it? You know, because the platform answers that question. This is how we're gonna sell it.
Anne Sampson:Yeah. I feel like kind of, there's been certain trends in publishing, where at one point everyone was like acquiring people who were on Twitter, or who had large Twitter followings. And then there was like this rash of like YouTuber books where all these like YouTube stars suddenly had books out. And I think a lot of them didn't sell particularly well.<laugh> so it's interesting to see, I feel like every kind of social media, new social media platform that comes up all of a sudden there's this rush to acquire books. And now you're seeing it with TikTok.
Sam Hiyate:Because I think there was a lot of Instagram books before TikTok.
Anne Sampson:Yeah. I represented some kind of Instagram-famous people.
Kathryn Willms:I had one other thought about that too. I had a really interesting conversation with an editor recently. I've spoken to tons of editors just getting started, just to introduce myself, and I always ask about platform and they're always like, yeah, it's important. Like, yes, like we're, we're going to marketing to discuss all these things. But she had a really interesting point. She was saying that, you know, that the industry's trying to do so much better at having a diversity of stories and voices, but social media still really privileges white, CIS, beautiful people with lattes. And I think, that is something we actually have to be a little bit aware of because being too focused on platform, in some ways you're amplifying the loudest voices rather than, you know, kind of what we'd say we'd like to do, which is tell the stories that, you know, our capitalist heteronormative racist society doesn't tell. So I think as an industry, it's actually an interesting question and that, you know, that it's important we continue to find, to promote stories that need to be told-- even, and perhaps especially if those people don't have access to the sort of platform that marketing departments, you know, would like them to.
Sam Hiyate:That's a really good point. I mean, I feel like all this focus on platform, I mean, there have been a number of initiatives in publishing to kind of, involve more diverse, like a multitude of voices, rather than one specific privileged type, let's say. So I feel like in those cases, they are more focused on the stories and the fact that this is actually the story that nobody knows, and that c ould be really compelling, despite the author's lack of platform.
Anne Sampson:So I guess the next question is what does it take to build a platform? I know Tasneem you've kind of recently launched a YouTube channel and I think people would find it interesting that agents themselves also feel the need to build a platform to attract clients or to attract potential clients. What have you kind of learned so far or where are you in your journey-- YouTube journey?
Tasneem Motala:That's a really good question. One of the things that made me start-- like want to start-- the YouTube channel is one, because I've kind of always wanted to do it. Two, because I found that at least now I have a reason for it being important to me. Before it was just, I just want to have one, because I think it'd be fun to do. And I like video recording and I like editing and I like doing all that stuff. But now it's like, okay, wait, I'm an agent. And if people don't know my name, then they're not going to query me and then I'm not going to have clients. So for me, it's a matter of getting my name out there, letting people know that I exist, letting people know what I'm interested in and what I'm looking for, but also, kind of to tie in what Sam said earlier about community. I do want to build a community of writers, where people uplift each other and talk about their stories and maybe even find beta readers in the community themselves and stuff like that. So it's important to me, for myself as an agent so that I get as many queries as possible and people know my name and what I'm acquiring and then I can get queries that are more and more funneled to my interests. But also just in terms of my platform, a lot of my YouTube channel is gonna be about, you know, stuff that I'm learning while I'm agenting and passing that information along to people who might not know how things work and, u h, writing tips and analysis of different stories and stuff. But so it's not like completely about agenting or completely about querying it's more about writing as like a general idea, but it is to get my name o ut there.
Anne Sampson:<laugh> Well, for those of you, who are interested, we will put a link to Tasneem's, YouTube in the show notes. So if you're interested, go click on that and find it. But yeah, I think coming from-- me coming from a social media background, I would say one of the biggest things is to just research your audience, like find out where they hang out online. This is for social media platforms. And not just people who are interested in your exact topic, but people who are interested in topics related to your topic. So if you write YA, you know, people who like read a lot of YA, maybe they also watch Riverdale. So find out where people are talking about Riverdale online, like just--
Sam Hiyate:That's a good example.
Anne Sampson:-- Find those connections, and then find out where those people are hanging out and talking online. I'd also say focus your efforts. So don't feel like you have to be on it all. Don't feel like you have to be on Facebook and on Twitter and on Instagram and on TikTok. Like, figure out where your audience is and focus your effort on that platform or in that area. And it's okay to not have a Twitter account if you don't think your audience is on Twitter. And yeah, just being authentic. Don't be self promotional. Don't make every single post or every single tweet, you know, just about what you are doing. Engage with the community, hype other people up, all of that kind of stuff. Yeah. And offer something useful, which is, I think what Tasneem is really doing with her YouTube channel. It's not just about promoting herself as an agent. It's about helping authors and starting discussions and giving advice. So I think, yeah, that's really great.
Sam Hiyate:I think consistency is important too in that list, Anne, because I think like the person with a TikTok platform that I represent, she made a point of going on every day and posting.
Anne Sampson:Yeah.
Sam Hiyate:Even if it was just a brief thing, but it was like there was consistent posting. And I think that's how you kind of build that trust with your audience.
Anne Sampson:And I think for non-fiction authors, you definitely like-- don't be afraid to pitch yourself as an expert in your field. So, you know, pitch podcasts that are talking about your topic. Pitch publications that are talking about your topic. Yeah. Kind of go out there and just be a little bit-- I know I said don't be a hundred percent self- promotional-- but you you still can be self-promotional<laugh>.
Tasneem Motala:I will say though, that half of my Twitter account, my professional Twitter account at least, is just me posting, like, here's a photo of my mug, because I just made myself a latte<laugh> but, and those always get likes, so it works.
Anne Sampson:All right. So my last question-- and this kind of generated some debate in the group chat-- is self-publishing a platform, and is it a useful one? Kathryn, let's go to you.
Kathryn Willms:So I think everyone knows that the 50 Shades and The Martian self-publishing fairy tales and I've helped a lot of authors self-publish over the years and kind of what I kind of come to is: self-publishing a book, while, it can be good in a lot of different ways and helpful, it's not a platform. No one will ever find your book unless you do exactly what we're talking about in this podcast-- actively sell that book to your connections, make more connections, then sell them the book. I don't think there's any stigma around having self-published books when you approach agents or with editors and a bunch of authors move the other way these days. So they go from traditionally published to being self-published, because they have a platform already, and they can make more money. But this idea that you could like put a book up on Amazon, never tell anyone about it, and hope for it to like catch fire. I think that's a lottery ticket. Like<laugh>. So to me self-publishing is not a platform. It's a reason to build a platform. And in fact, in some ways you're doing that even more independently. And also once you do that though, then, you know, you might get a look in, into traditionally publishing. If that's the direction that you, you choose or are interested in going.
Sam Hiyate:I think the example here is somebody like Rupi Kaur, who self-published her book and then realized that she had to sell it and then started to go on Instagram and started to do a bunch of things to promote her book. And built a platform to sell-- specifically to sell her book. But s he d id it. She spent hours every day, every week consistently until I think, she reached 10,000 or 12,000 c opies sold. And then, I think, a publisher came after and said, You sold 12,000 copies of a self-published book. You're awesome. We want to publish you-- because they saw what she was doing on social media. So self-publishing is successful when it takes a certain kind of person who has a kind of business s avvy and that in fact, would be a good publisher to anybody. They just h appen to be publishing themselves.
Anne Sampson:All right. Well, thanks everyone for the great discussion on platform. I think this was really--
Sam Hiyate:I feel like we just got started<laugh>.
Kathryn Willms:I know. I was like, I need all of Anne's tips.
Tasneem Motala:Like it's over? Okay.
Anne Sampson:We might need to have a platform, part two discussion.<laugh>.
Kathryn Willms:Absolutely.
Sam Hiyate:OMG. That's this week's show, folks. Thanks to all our guests and our producer, Andrew Kaufman. Most of all, thank you for listening. And remember to share the love slash feedback and post your thoughts and review us anywhere you can-- as well, do subscribe on SubStack, under the Agent Provocateur newsletter. It's a companion piece to the podcast and you can always reach out to us with any feedback or thoughts via our website, therightsfactory.com or our agency socials until then see you next week.