In this episode we take a look at BookTok, we have an editorial on plagues and content, and we have an update on the rights situation in the recent Bologna and London Book Fairs, which were virtual this year.
In this episode we take a look at BookTok, we have an editorial on plagues and content, and we have an update on the rights situation in the recent Bologna and London Book Fairs, which were virtual this year.
Welcome to our podcast. I'm Sam Hiyate, CEO of The Rights Factory. In this episode, we're talking about BookTok...
Lindsey Reeder:Like you, Sam. I was like, what is book talk? Why am I hearing in every single conversation? I meant it just kind of took over in the last like month or two in publishing. Yeah.
Sam Hiyate:We have an editorial on plagues and content.
Diane Terrana:If you're thinking about writing a COVID book to ride a wave, you've probably missed it.
Sam Hiyate:And we have an update on the rights sales situation in Bologna and London. Now that those fairs are going virtual, from our Rights Manager in Naples.
Milly Ruggiero:But now we actually had very, very good year. So this is the strange thing after the pandemic.
Sam Hiyate:And today's panel, we're talking about how TikTok is helping authors achieve better sales. And I'm joined today by Diane Terrana, Executive Editor at The Rights Factory and the author of The World on Either Side. Good morning, everyone. It's great to be here. We also have, Lindsey Reeder who is the Digital Marketing Senior Manager at Harlequin Trade Publishing. Hi everyone. Hi Lindsey. And finally we have Marisa Noelle who is an author of young adult and middle grade novels leaning towards grounded science fiction, urban fantasy and paranormal.
Marisa Noelle:That's me. Thanks for having me on.
Sam Hiyate:Right. We've got everybody here. So I'm just going to start off by saying, you know, when I first heard about TikTok, it was really about agents signing people that were TikTok stars. And then all of a sudden, they were becoming like the new L ily Singhs or whatever. And then all of a sudden, now I'm hearing"BookTok" and I remember a few weeks ago, I was like, what is BookTok? So that led to this, this panel today. U m, so I'm s o glad you guys are here who are actually on this platform. And my first question is how did that happen? Do you, anybody want to start with that?
Marisa Noelle:I'm happy to dive straight in here, um, from what I've seen, I've been on TikTok for a couple of months now, and there's a lot more engagement, in TikTok than in YouTube, you can interact, you can comment on, um, TikTok videos are either 15 seconds or a minute. And you can, what we call"stitch" or"duet" with somebody who is doing that video, which means you can have the video playing and leave your own comments. It's a great way to have a discussion with the book community, which you can't do on YouTube. And it's a great way to voice your opinions and create threads and discussions that the whole community can become part of, instead of just watching one YouTuber's review catalog of what they've read in whatever year. So I think that's the key, the engagement factor is the difference for them both.
Lindsey Reeder:Yeah, I think the other part too, is that it's very short form content, which I think, you know, especially Gen Z in particular are very used to, and they consume quicker and faster, but they still convert, which is really great to see as well. So I think it's really interesting when it comes to, um, the short form content of getting things out there quickly, fastly, and like, it's just, it's a whole new world in a sense, especially wearing my publisher's hat. I would say just like you, Sam, I was like, what is BookTok? Why am I hearing in every single conversation I'm in? It just kind of took over in the last like month or two in publishing as a whole. Okay.
Diane Terrana:And just to be clear, I am not on TikTok. I have an author who's not on it or not on any channel and have zero desire to go on any channel as well, for more philosophical reasons. But I did do a tour of it to figure out what we were talking about for today. And it's also geared to very young people. Is that correct? That was certainly my understanding. Yes.
Lindsey Reeder:That's the case. It's usually, I think the demographic is 34 and under that's the majority of the audience. But then there's the, you know, my moms of the world, who are like sitting there and saying like, okay, what is TikTok? I keep hearing about it. So they're dipping their toes. I think in six months, this will be a very different conversation. I think there'll be an older demographic moving over to it as well. Absolutely. I agree with that.
Sam Hiyate:Are these, are these ads like endorsements? Like what are they really? Cause if you've got like a minute or, or less, to do your video, how much, how can you really sell a book in that time? I'm a little baffled by it.
Diane Terrana:Well, this is my argument against it. In fact, that it's an anti literacy platform. Basically we're looking at glitzy less than one minute pony and dog and pony productions to sell a book-- a book. I mean, I consider literature somewhat sacred and, it's a concern for me that this is what we're putting out there to the kids who are to assess a book on how alluring an author is.
Marisa Noelle:I think there are a lot of different types of videos that go on to BookTok. And one of them is the aesthetics that we were talking about now, to have the mood of a book created so that a reader will see whether it's a fantasy genre or there's romance in it and creating that atmosphere is very enticing and tempting and makes you want to dive into the pages that evokes those emotions. So that's one side of it and there are some really big BookTokkers getting huge followings in short amount of times just by producing these aesthetics. There's also the people like bloggers, who will come in and just talk about the book. They will talk about the common, tropes, and you can decide if you're a particular fan of an enemies to lovers situation or a love triangle situation, whether those are the tropes that you love to read about and whether that might be the right book for you. So it creates a whole, I don't think it's just about these little trailers. There's a lot more going on, in the community then than one way of looking at it. Um, and the community by large is very friendly and so eager to connect with people. There's a lot of people on book talk who don't have friends in real life that read books. So these are people reaching out to have discussions, about these books and saying, Hey, I love this book. Let me share my passion with you. Can you read it to tell me what you thought? And it's just a great way to have that conversation.
Lindsey Reeder:And I'm finding interestingly enough, that it's less about like the content of the book and more about the emotion that it evokes. Um, I, I'm finding a lot of like books that made me cry because it made me smile and laugh. It's, it's tied around an emotion, which I don't know if that's like, like again, like the younger demographic thing, but now like it's shifted how in publishing anyway, in marketing as a whole, how we're kind of talking to these consumers, it's more about emotion-based and less about the content itself, which has been really interesting-- that shift as a whole.
Diane Terrana:That's, that's my concern, less about the content. I did find one youngish author who was selling her violent erotica, and this is geared to young people-- teenagers are on it-- and she was selling it in one clip with some captions. And one of the captions was"He gets off on making her bleed." Another one was,"He efs her with his gun," and I just felt profoundly sad at that.
Marisa Noelle:I have not come across anything like that, to be honest. Um, and I would too, if I saw that there's a lot of authors, well, there's a lot of, there's a lot of"spice," as they like to call it on, on BookTok. So there's a huge corner of those who like a spicy romance, perhaps it hasn't got the literary criticism in, you know, of the traditional world. So these authors are on, BookTok and they have a following, and they have a lot of readership there. And obviously there are these sub-genres and one of them is the violence. But, most of the authors I've seen have disclaimers about"this is only for 18 plus-- don't follow me." But the reality of that is that we have a lot of kids on BookTok. So I agree Diane, that those concerns are valid. At the moment, this thing is exploding and we don't really have the way to police that I guess. I mean, TikTok does have to approve your videos. So that is definitely an area that we might need to look more into, as it becomes bigger and bigger and bigger.
Lindsey Reeder:I don't know the statistics around it. So I can't actually say definitively, this is how fast it's growing. But I do think that the pandemic had a huge impact. TikTok came out before then, and it was another app, blah, blah, blah. But then essentially, it was kind of people were dipping their toes, but it was like a young platform in March of 2020. And then people were home and bored and, um, TikTok kind of blew up. I think that the pandemic really helped the app as a whole. So I think this is just kind of the beginning. I think it's going to be huge. And in marketing world, we're looking at it with a whole different lens right now. I think there's going to be massive amounts of play, money, things happening on TikTok.
Marisa Noelle:I agree with you, Lindsey. Since I've joined two months ago, I have so many author friends and-- editors I have, who work at publishing houses-- I've seen now joining TikTok. The bloggers are now talking about the books that publishers are sending them. So publishers are recognizing that this is a place to send their ARC copies,to get people talking about their books, not just on Instagram or blogs, et cetera. So I think you're right. I think we're at the beginning and I'm seeing some huge accounts develop who are going to be mega influencers, as we carry on this journey. So I think it's definitely a place worth investing. And the great thing is that anyone can do it, whether you're an agency or an author or an editor or a publishing house, you can all be on there, promoting, promoting a book.
Diane Terrana:I did try to imagine some of my favorite authors on it, like Tony Morrison or Rohinton Mistry, Jojo Moyes. And I couldn't. I did imagine the Kardashians on it. And then I found them immediately. Right. Which I think says everything that's wrong with it in my view. I also looked for, because it's a, YA platform more than other books. I looked for my favorite YA, Meg Rosoff and I couldn't find her on it either. So, do you think it's going to extend to the more established authors, Lindsey and Marisaa? Or is it going to appeal to up and coming indie authors or new debut authors who are trying to get a leg up?
Marisa Noelle:I think it's both, Victoria Aveyard is already on there and has a huge following along with a couple of authors who have, I can't quite remember at the moment. I think the huge author names are on there because people want to see a slice of their life. So they might not be doing promotion per se, but they might be talking about,"Hey, I had this idea," or"Here's where I write from," or"This is what my life is," bringing the reader into their home and developing that relationship. Whereas for the indie author, it is about getting your name out there, trying to get the readers interested in your content and to find a platform and fellowship. So I think it will do both, to be honest. And I think, I think everyone should get on there. Join me.
Lindsey Reeder:Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think there's certain authors. I would kind of say,"Oh, I don't think that's the platform for you." And I wouldn't say it because it's just a lot of work that goes into creating content, and some content works and some doesn't. And so I think, you know, Toni Morrison on the platform, it just wouldn't feel authentic to Toni Morrison. So I wouldn't recommend that to her. But I think that there's certain authors, for instance, Taylor Jenkins Reid, whose book blew up-- The Seven Husbands one, um, what one's hers? The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, that was her book, blew up on that platform. Backlist had such a huge moment. I would advise like someone like her, who's very comfortable in social media world to create a platform. So I think you have to feel comfortable on the platform, to make it work, or it'll just seem forced. And, the community will see right through it.
Marisa Noelle:And just be yourself. I mean, you can't copy exactly somebody else's methods. You just have to do what you can do. Like I'm not a funny person, so I'm more of a genuine, here's my running advice. Here's what I'm working on. I go for that route, rather than trying to make people laugh because that's not my thing.
Sam Hiyate:Wow. Okay. Well, there's a lot to process here. I think we have to come back in about six months and, see where all this is. I'd be very curious. And Diane, I think you're right. It would be great to see if Salman Rushdie's on there, sometime.
Diane Terrana:Let's make it a date-- six months from now, the four of us, back here.
Sam Hiyate:Perfect. Okay. Thanks Lindsey. Thanks Marisa. Thanks Diane. Thank you.(Guess what I forgot to record that, on video, I mean.). This week's opinion piece is from our very own Diane Terrana, offering words of wisdom on writing about COVID.
Diane Terrana:Hello there. This is for you authors who think you may want to write about COVID. I've read several manuscripts in the last few months that struggle with this issue. Authors, ask yourself some questions. Why do you want to write about COVID? Are you jumping on a trend? Are you interested in building our new world? Are you tipping your hat at all the other humans and saying,"Yes, I too have experienced this pandemic"? Do you have something to say or explore about COVID or do you have a story that will benefit from a pandemic setting? If you have something to say that will sustain an entire book or a story that will flourish in a pandemic setting, then great, go ahead. I would never argue, but you might want to keep listening. If you want to jump on the COVID trend, here are some numbers: At The Rights Factory, we've sold three COVID books, two non-fiction and one YA fiction. The first non- fiction is already out. The second is coming out in August, and the YA fiction is due to hit the shelves in the fall. One exasperated editor recently told Sam he was receiving two to three pandemic submissions a week. And a quick survey at Publisher's Marketplace turned up 28, acquired works of pandemic fiction and 74 works of non- fiction. Hence, if you're thinking about writing a COVID book to ride a wave, you've probably missed it. Maybe though you're building our new world. Several authors, including yours truly you're currently writing or finishing up novels that we assume will be sold in a post-pandemic world. We may be wrong, but we're trying to imagine the little legacies of COVID to add a realistic setting to novels that are not about COVID, that could have been written well before it ever struck. When I read these manuscripts, including mine-- actually, especially mine-- I trip over the pandemic references. While it does seem remiss not to acknowledge such a world-shaking event. And while there may be lasting legacies, the references feel strangely odd, out of place. And even like, they're breaking that third wall. As an editor and an author. I'm keeping my eye on these things. Then there's the,"Are you tipping your hat at the rest of the world"? That just feels gratuitous and completely unnecessary. Everyone knows that everyone has been through a pandemic. Some manuscripts have what I'm calling non-sequitur COVID chunks inserted willy nilly into them. Now, to be clear, these are manuscripts that are not about the pandemic that were in fact largely written before COVID struck. When I look at these sections, I bring my-- my favorite checklist to it. Does this segment move the book along? Is it integral to the story? Is it necessary to what comes after? Is it a logical extension of what came before? If the answer to all these questions is no, the material has to go. COVID has impacted all of us. Yes. But if you find you're jamming a COVID reference scene, or God forbid, whole chapter into your already basically finished manuscript, at the last minute, don't. Just don't. If it has nothing to do with your story, it should not be on the page. Thanks for hearing me out. This is Diane Terrana, Executive Editor at The Rights Factory, coming to you from the GTA.
Sam Hiyate:For hundreds of years, the rights selling of literary properties has happened in person, in places like Frankfurt, London, and Bologna. And in the last, few years, of course it's been impossible. So things have moved virtually. Today we have our special guest, Milly Ruggiero, who is our own Foreign Rights Manager at The Rights Factory in Naples. Right now we're going to just check in with her about what's happening. Hi, Milly. Hi. And, and also on this talk we have Diane Terrana. Hi Sam. Thanks. Awesome. So, Milly, I guess one of the things that struck me is, doing this virtually, like I know that the both Bologna and London over the last two years have tried to do this in person, and then they waited, waited, waited, and finally they gave up. So there's been a kind of logistical thing happening, but how have you found it, trying to kind of move from the old way to the new way? What what's it like now? Cause my first Frankfurt, all I remember was all the booze, and I would walk into a party and it would say"Flammarion" and there was all this Veuve Clicquot and I'm like,"I love the French-- there's free champagne." So what's it like without the parties and the prosecco?
Milly Ruggiero:Oh Yes. So this is a kind of important thing. So we actually miss sometimes, because when you have a virtual meeting, is that we don't really mention anything about that. We mentioned something from the past and from the possible future, but not actually from the present, because we don't drink, we don't drink while we are in a meeting. So it's a completely different situation. And especially this type of partiy-- this is something that we actually, we are thinking in a positive way that we can absolutely go back, and go back to Frankfurt. And all the book fairs that actually will be on.
Diane Terrana:I was just going to ask, did you end up enjoying Bologna? The new way?
Milly Ruggiero:I actually enjoyed it because there, there was many publishers, agents I didn't actually meet before. So they gave me the chance to actually connect, to be in contact with the new publishers and to new people. And this is something that is very important, because in this way you can create and your network of clients, customers, or these types of colleagues anyway, or possibly friends in the future. So it's a long lasting relationship that you actually can build through the book fair's platforms. But anyway, thinking positively that everything can be physical again.
Sam Hiyate:Great. I read somewhere that they said the deal flow was the same as before, even though everything's moving virtual. So basically my thinking, reading that, is that the fact that this right sale is happening all the time, digitally, without, depending on the physical fairs, is making up for the fact that the fairs have kind of evaporated until possibly this fall for Frankfurt. And next year, for the other fairs.
Milly Ruggiero:Actually we had an increase-- an increase in sales-- even in our local market. So the thing was that we were scared about Netflix or these type of things, because we didn't think that we could possibly reach more readers, but this is what's happened. Actually we had more readers and an increase in publishing distribution. So, and also bookshops at the beginning-- where we were literally scared about this situation., of bookshops--
Sam Hiyate:Is this in Italy only, or most of Europe?
Milly Ruggiero:In Europe, this has happened in Europe, in many places in Germany, in France. So this is-- and also because bookshops actually started to do their individual online shopping systems-- they built up these kind of things. So it was not having the or giving the responsibilities to Amazon or very big shopping suppliers anyway, but to give the individual book shoppers actually the, chance to sell their books and not close. So this was a very important point. And this happened more or less in all of over Europe. They had an increase in selling for their local markets, but also, they started to buy. And all the sales point was actually increasing rather than decreasing. Anyway. So this was a very, yes, a very good thing for the European market. Anyway, in this period. We were also thinking that in Italy, we were going to, because we did a type of so many readers in the past, but now we actually had a very, very good year. So this is the strange thing after the pandemic. So yes,.
Sam Hiyate:So the pandemic scared everybody, but then it helped everybody-- the disruption of it, kind of everybody. As usual, everybody kind of came together and-- publishing people are very strange as it always reminds me of being in university and joining the English society. And everybody's talking about all the same stuff. It's like the publishing community is like that group, but made worldwide into like a hundred languages in a hundred countries.
Milly Ruggiero:They are always, obviously very cautious to buy books. They want some, something very strong anyway, from the foreign countries. So for example, in France, in Germany, so it's, it's very difficult, but you can absolutely have many, many points of sales anyway. So it's a good period in a strange way. It was unpredictable, but in the end, the result is absolutely great.
Sam Hiyate:Well, I'm hoping we can, this Frankfurt, I'm hoping we can all hang out and have drinks because the one thing to me that alcohol adds to these book fairs-- this is from personal experience-- is that if I'm just talking to somebody after about five or six hours, I get tired, but if I drink, then I got an extra five or six hours-- but then do you pay for that later.
Milly Ruggiero:Yes, exactly. And especially the next morning, I think.
Sam Hiyate:I don't want to talk about that. Thanks so much, Milly. That was great. Good update. Thank you. Thank you very much. So that's our show folks. I want to thank our guests and especially our awesome producer, Andrew Kaufman, take care and see you next week.