This week we discuss the phenomenon of celebrity book clubs and break down Obama’s new summer reading list. Featuring panel discussions with author and book publicist Nathaniel Moore; VP of Operations for Dundurn Press, Chris Houston; and The Rights Factory’s own Executive Editor Diane Terrana, and agents Stacey Kondla and Kathryn Willms.
This week we discuss the phenomenon of celebrity book clubs and break down Obama’s new summer reading list. Featuring panel discussions with author and book publicist Nathaniel Moore; VP of Operations for Dundurn Press, Chris Houston; and The Rights Factory’s own Executive Editor Diane Terrana, and agents Stacey Kondla and Kathryn Willms.
Hello, welcome to Agent Provocateur episode 2. I'm Sam Hiyate, founder and CEO of The Rights Factory. This week, Obama's summer reading list...
Kathryn Willms:Hard yes, on this one. I loved his last book on the Irish troubles, Say Nothing--
Sam Hiyate:But first, we're having a panel discussion about the pros and cons of the new and massively growing trend of celebrity book clubs. O.M.G. If you're like me, you're wondering where all these book clubs are coming from. Are they here to stay? Do they actually help or hurt readers? I mean, it's likely they're good for publishing, but readers, literature. To take a closer look. We've assembled a crack team of industry insiders. With me today, we have my co- host, and Executive Editor, at the Rights Factory, Diane Terrana.
Diane Terrana:Good morning. Good to be here.
Sam Hiyate:We have Stacy Kondla, who's also an agent at the Rights Factory, and we'll be speaking a lot about her past and somewhat current career as a bookseller.
Stacey Kondla:Hi Sam. Thank you.
Sam Hiyate:And, finally we have, I guess he's now known as a gadfly, but I just know him as Nathaniel Moore, book publicist and author and general wit and literary guy.
Nathaniel Moore:Hello.
Sam Hiyate:So it looks like book clubs are here to stay. I guess my first question is, what does this mean for, I guess what does it mean for booksellers? Because I think the publishers are happy that if everybody's talking about books, it's good for writers, It's good for them. It's good for book sales. Stacy, why don't we start with you, having worked, in bookselling for a period of time.
Stacey Kondla:Yeah. I mean, overall, anything that sells books is a good thing for booksellers too, right, not just the publishers, but sellers want to sell books. I think the other question that comes from that question though, is, is this a good thing for literature as a whole, right? Like, that's the big question. And I think it has multiple answers, right? Like, so overall, yes, they are a great thing. People are reading. People are talking about books. Super awesome. We love that. I feel like the problem is though, is they're all talking about the same books and I love that quote by Ishiguro-- I'm paraphrasing here-- but it's,"If you only read what everybody else is reading, you can only think what everyone else is thinking."
Sam Hiyate:That's exactly what my concern is.
Stacey Kondla:That's where the problem comes in. Exactly. So I worry that we're just getting, you know, these lists of books that are similar, right? Because they're catering to a specific kind of reader. And I don't think that the book clubs overall challenge readers to step outside of their comfort zones. And that's a bad thing.
Diane Terrana:Yeah, I'd like to jump in here with one of my pet peeves, which is, Heather's Picks. Now I've seen her called the literary authority in the country. And, I'm just baffled by that. Why would Heather Reisman be a literary authority? She's not a writer. Well, she does have a book out now co-written with a cookbook author. I'm still not calling her a writer. She's not a reviewer. She's not an English professor. She's never written a review as far as I can see. And I've looked, she's never had to put her thoughts together to explain, to articulate, why she likes a book. So she slaps a sticker on it, a book she loves. I certainly believe she reads them-- many people don't-- she slaps the sticker on, or gets her minions to slap stickers on, and we're supposed to go, Oh my God. Yes. We all have to buy this book. I don't get it. She's certainly not Sheila Rogers. She's not really sharing her thoughts on anything. Just expecting us to go,"You love it, Heather. So I better go out and buy it."
Stacey Kondla:And it works at Indigo. People buy them like crazy.
Sam Hiyate:Let me ask Nathaniel-- Nathaniel, what's your sense of this? You're a writer too. You're a publicist in the book world.
Nathaniel Moore:Yeah. I wouldn't worry Diane, too much about Heather, finding out anything you've said because we have no proof that she has actually uses the Internet, but I would like to say, all joking aside that, what we are experiencing now, in my opinion, are the obvious next steps, for our culture to avoid reviewing books at any cost. Someone with a grade level education can cut and paste catalog copy and put together a list. It's anti-- well, I don't even need to say"anti"-- these book blogs, which the successful ones I would say, are staunchly American, but of course, Canada, you know, we're going to be emulating them to some degree, but I really think that these lists, are going to replace awards, or be as important as awards. I know for a fact having meetings with producers at CBC and other media factions that these lists are things that publishers and authors obsess about. And I know for a fact that when one of my authors isn't on the list, I'll get, I'll get a call. Like, why didn't they pick me? Why aren't I, one of 500 new novels coming out this fall? People like the lists.
Sam Hiyate:So the danger is going back to this homogeneity argument, is that these influencers and book club people, have such power. They're not, in my mind, I don't see them using it to support that small press book or that debut novel that nobody's ever heard of, that they love. I feel they're just promoting the same stuff. The big books from the big authors that they already know, that's very low risk because they can't afford the risk in a way.
Stacey Kondla:Yeah. And that's my point, right? That I, that I made at the beginning is it, you know, it's, it's the same kind of books that they're recommending over and over. Out of all of the book clubs that are out there right now, I do think that Reese is offering the broadest selection of genres and types of books. She does mix it up, and she is recommending YA novels as well, which is awesome. But again, they're all from like big publishers, right? I don't see any of these celebrity book club lists promoting small press books where it could be seriously life-changing for a press. It's not life-changing for the big four.
Diane Terrana:So you just wonder what kind of lobbying is going on behind the scenes? I mean, I just took a look at Heather's recent picks. The first seven I checked out are all from huge publishers. So, I'm assuming there is big lobbying going on behind the scenes and the publishers with the big money and the power are getting their book lists in front of these influencers.
Stacey Kondla:Yeah. But then it also comes back to the readers. Okay. So readers are buying into it, though. And we're talking that the people that buy from these lists are your typical consumer. They are the average reader that just picks up a book for entertainment or picks up a book because they heard their best friend read it, and they want to talk about it. Those are the kinds of readers we're talking about, that buy off of these lists.
Nathaniel Moore:But that's the sinister thing that's going on.
Stacey Kondla:Yeah. And it's not, you know, the more discerning owners.
Nathaniel Moore:It's data mining.
Stacey Kondla:Yeah. And different readers will buy different books, right. So the book club buyers are not the only readers out there, but they're definitely the biggest part of the market. Right. And they want to be reading the same things because they want to feel like they're a part of something and they want to have those discussions, and they don't want to feel like they missed out because they didn't read this book that everybody else has read. So...
Sam Hiyate:Stacy, you were saying that your feeling was, some of the clubs, at least at the store that you're at part-time, which is an indie store-- how, do the different book clubs or lists, how do they play out on the front lines?
Stacey Kondla:I feel like overall, different book clubs do do differently at different book sellers, right? Like if we're talking about physical bookstores, different book clubs are going to do better at one store than other stores, depending on the bookstores, demographics, and the kinds of books that they specialize in. Right? So the book store that I work at, it's an independent. It does actually specialize in book club books, and we sell boatloads of them. Reese picks do really, really well at the bookstore that I work at. Oprah picks tend to do a little less well, and obviously we don't showcase Heather's picks.
Diane Terrana:But you did work at Indigo at one time.
Stacey Kondla:I did work at Indigo and Heather's Picks sold like hotcakes. And, it's partly because Indigo customers know who Heather is. And there's that great big in your face Heather's Pick table at the front of the store, driving those titles.
Diane Terrana:Any table right at the front of the store may attract attention. Whether they had gold stickers affixed to the jackets or not. Is it just intellectual laziness on the part of readers?
Stacey Kondla:Well, again, it goes back to why are people reading? And you have to understand that the bulk of the readers out there aren't reading because they're literary experts and they want to do a literary critique on a book that they read. They are entertainment consumers. They want to be entertained.
Diane Terrana:But I'm an entertainment consumer. I don't want to do critiques on the books I read-- I do critiques on the books I edit. I just love to enjoy a book, but I thought--
Stacey Kondla:Average readers read at a different level. Average readers read at a different level. They read differently than people who work in the book industry. It's just the cold hard fact of it. They don't read the way we read, as industry professionals. Right. There are readers out there though, that will come into the independent that I work at and look at a book and go,"Oh, it's a Reese pick. I'm not buying that." Or they'll look at it and go,"Oh, that's a New York times bestseller. I'm not buying that. I want a good book. I want literature." There are those readers that exist, but it's the people that shop the book clubs are in the majority. That's what they want. They want to be told what to read, and they want to be reading as a group to feel like they're part of a group.
Nathaniel Moore:I think one thing that is positive of the changing of the guards in book media-- I can't speak for America-- but I can say in Canada that reviews, the review culture is pretty much dead., Unfortunately, and these book blogs-- and I'm talking about traditional reviews in newspapers and entertainment weeklies that we used to know about and rely on and they're much missed. But I think that these new book blogs and podcasts are creating a lot of pages and a lot of click-throughs. And it's a new way of promoting and sharing books, but obviously the independent, presses are lacking. And think about this, put into context, Scott Griffin, is, as far as I know, the only millionaire who's ever bailed out, any sort of Canadian publishing entity. And if this were to be repeated by an a millionaire in the States or in Canada to somehow, get a whole bunch of independent book books underneath, Reese's eyes and Gwyneth Paltrow's eyes and actually have an independent, publisher book club e pisode or a feature that would help just breakthrough what, two or 300, 400 publishers in North America, that would benefit from having like millions of potential book buyers, r ealize that there's more than just those big five, those big, publishers with the money who can pay to take R eese's p ublicists out for lunch and say, we really want these three novels in the next list. You know, I can't do that. I don't know Reese's handlers. And I don't, I can't fly to the States-- and I don't really want to,
Sam Hiyate:Okay. Guys, I think the only option left is we have to start our own book club. I think that's the way to go here. Thanks so much. Thanks so much.
Diane Terrana:Thank you, Sam, Stacy and Nathaniel.
Stacey Kondla:Thank you.
Nathaniel Moore:Goodbye. Thank you, everyone. It's been great talking to you.
Sam Hiyate:One of the biggest and most influential of all the book lists is Obama's. He's released his annual picks since 2008. In this latest summer one. I've asked three of my favorite industry insiders to go through it, book by book... With me today is Diane Terrana, Executive Editor at The Rights Factory.
Diane Terrana:Great to be here.
Sam Hiyate:Kathryn Willms, who is an agent at The Rights Factory also,.
Kathryn Willms:Hello, everyone.
Sam Hiyate:And we have Chris Houston, who is here just at the last minute. He just landed. And, he's a really funny sales guy from Dundurn and, or at least he seems funny so far.
Chris Houston:Great to be here and have the trust of others.
Sam Hiyate:Awesome. So I'm going to give you the book with a quick logline. I'll be honest. I haven't read these books. All I'm going on in a lot of cases is the title and the summary that I read according to CNN. So once I do that, I'm going to pick the person and then we'll get a yes or no. And then a reason why they feel the way they do. So first book is, At Night All Blood Is Black. This is a story of a Black guy fighting for the French in World War One. I would say normally he would probably get shafted, but if Obama picked this book, there's probably a happy redemptive ending. So Diane, what do you think?
Diane Terrana:Okay. So first I wanted to just give my methods. I read the Amazon description. I Googled the authors and I went into the"Look Inside" feature on Amazon to read the first couple of pages.
Sam Hiyate:That's a lot more work than I did, just to be clear.
Speaker 4:Okay. I like world war novels. This one brings a fresh voice and a perspective with the Senegalese angle. I loved the first couple of pages. I love the mystery and the voice that jumped off the page. The author is a historian, which I love because I love historical novels to be accurate. So it's a definite yes.
Sam Hiyate:Awesome. Kathryn.
Kathryn Willms:Yeah. So I think I need to add a couple of disclaimers here after Diane's putting us to shame. I did less research than that. And also, I will read anything. So this is all kind of a bit of a theoretical exercise. The other thing I should say is that, if it was like lying on a table in a cabin, yes. I'm going to be like, I'm not discerning, I don't think in these ways. But, then I like to complain if I don't like it, obviously. And the other disclaimer, is that, I think Obama might have good taste. So I just assume if I say, I'm not going to read something, I'm probably wrong because he's picked some great books in the past. Anyways, this book does look quite interesting. I also like Diane really enjoy World War One books and descriptions. And I love that this is a bit of a cool and different take on it. Definitely a fascinating history I don't know anything about. So I guess I'm saying yes, but I would have to be like in a mood for it because, I don't know if I have Sam's, faith in the redemptive arc.
Sam Hiyate:All right, Chris.
Chris Houston:Yeah. You know, count me in on this one. My, strategies are a lot less deep than Diane's and, and, not nearly as open-minded as Kathryn who'll read anything. Where have I found myself today? This is like a hell of better educated people. But I will say that I want to read this book. I do not like books about the war. It's too much for my small brain, but I do like a book that has a quote from Ali Smith, one of my favorite writers. And she said," At Night, All Blood Is Black...." She had this to say,"But it is so incantatory and visceral, I don't think I'll ever forget it." I'm in, take all my money. If Ali Smith, w ho i s one of the great writers of the modern age, is not forgetting this book, that's all I need to know, but the fact that it's on Obama's l ist too, when he calls, I'll tell him that's great. But Ali Smith got t o it first, so yes. Solid yes.
Sam Hiyate:Awesome. Okay. The second book, Land Of Big Numbers by Ta-Ping Chen. This reads like a Dubliners for China. We're going to start with Chris this time.
Chris Houston:You know what, continuing my scientific approach, I love the cover of this book. I'm a huge believer-- that whole thing about not judging a book by its cover. The cover is magnificent. Ta-Ping Chen is a Wall Street Journal writer. This is her first novel, short stories, 10 short stories. China sounds very exotic and interesting to me now. I've never been there. So I would love to read this and find out more and of course, great cover. I'm going to enjoy looking at it. That's a plus.
Diane Terrana:All right, Diane. Okay. It's a subject that interests me. The author is a journalist. She knows her stuff. The writing is so sharp and the opening of the first story, is underlaid with a real biting irony that I loved. She's a debut author. It would normally be a resounding yes if it were a novel, but it's a collection of short stories and I just get engaged, then they end. Then I'm sad. So this is a sad no.
Sam Hiyate:Okay. Kathryn.
Kathryn Willms:Yeah. Likewise, I'm not a fan of short stories and I always wonder if that makes me a bad person. I like, in fact, I like when they're so long and ambitious, like The Three Body Problem, which has this-- which goes to the end of time and the universe, and it has this fascinating description of the cultural revolution in China. So actually it really piqued my interest in, and I wanted to learn more about this sort of monolith of the state of China and all these sorts of things. Um, so maybe, but to be honest, I'm way more likely to read like a science fiction or journalism on this topic to learn more.
Sam Hiyate:Okay. Well, we have to be honest here. That's great. You guys are saying short stories can be a tough time. Next up, Empire of Pain by Patrick Radden Keefe. All I can say about this is it's not about the Trump organization. So Kathryn, you go first.
Kathryn Willms:Oh, hard yes. On this one. I loved his last book on the Irish Troubles, Say Nothing. It was just so much fun and I just feel like the opiod crisis is just something that we just don't have a full handle on, or I don't anyways. And, and also like just capitalism and the ability of just individual people and families to just have this terrible ability to harm society. Definitely interested.
Sam Hiyate:Okay, Chris?
Chris Houston:Yeah, when Barack called and told me about this one, I was a little bit, ah, you know, America, it's American history. It's, a family, it's all kinds of stuff that I feel like I'm reading already in the news. So, I'm saving, my opportunity for another title. So I would pass on this one. It's not taking me enough out of the world, as I'd like,
Sam Hiyate:Okay, Diane.
Diane Terrana:So I've been following the saga, of this family and their depraved indifference to humanity. I just discovered last week, none of them are going to jail. They're not even being criminally prosecuted and they're allowing them to pony up$4.5 billion to pay for what they've done. All the misery and deaths. Right now, I can't deal with the rage this book will evoke in me. So it's a down the line, maybe.
Sam Hiyate:Got it, got it. Okay. Next up, Clara And The Sun by Kazuo Ishiguro. This is basically Toy Story, but instead of a toy, it's an A.I. And it's written by a Nobel prizewinner instead of the Disney guys. So, Kathryn, let's hear from you.
Kathryn Willms:Yeah, I think it's a, no. I saw this compared to the movie Her with Joaquin Phoenix, and I did not enjoy that movie. I realized that I don't care if robots find love. I don't care if people love robots, but I don't want to hear about it. I just want people to keep their robot love to themselves. it is Ishiguro but, so I'm probably being an idiot. And I do have The Buried Giant at my night side table right now, so I will try a different Ishiguro
Sam Hiyate:Okay. Diane?
Diane Terrana:Yeah. I wasn't terribly thrilled by the concept. Maybe Stephen Hawking has turned me off of artificial intelligence, by scaring me about it.
Sam Hiyate:Because he says it's going to be the end of us all.
Diane Terrana:Yeah. I read the first couple of pages. I thought I would love it actually, because it is Ishiguro and I didn't. So it's a no.
Sam Hiyate:Okay Chris.
Chris Houston:Yeah, I like this.
Sam Hiyate:I put you purposely after Diane.
Chris Houston:Yeah. I'm not making any moves in this game unless Diane talks first, that's going to be booked for my new contract. So, you know, I like this artificial friend thing. I did not like Her, the film or she, or whichever one that was. It was just bad, Joaquin Phoenix. Nice try. This feels different, somehow. It feels like a more literary upscale upmarket version of that. And It's artificial friend too. I mean, who, honestly, if they're honest with themselves, doesn't need an artificial friend. I would like more of this. I wanna explore that, too. And the cover kind of gives me a bit of a Logan's Run feel, you know, with the hand, the star that's blinking. So it's ticking off all my sort of pop culture boxes in a good way.
Sam Hiyate:Oh my god, Logan's Run. You're bringing me back a long way. Um, okay. Finally, now this is where I feel like Obama is a fan of Spinal Tap, because he could have had 10, but he had to go to 11. He found that guitar that had the 11. So number 11 on the list is Intimacies by Katie Kitamura. I actually would read this too, because what it sounds like is you've got this interpreter that goes to the international court at the Hague and gets involved in a bunch of intrigues. So it's kind of like a modern-day Jane Austen novel. It seems like at the end of the day, it seems ultra literary, and that it's going to be about her finding meaning in her life, the way that all the Austen characters do and possibly a relationship. I'm gonna start with Chris this time. So you don't, you don't have Diane's benefit of--
Chris Houston:Yeah, I'm out to dry on this one, but this was the first one I picked from the list, actually. I went backwards. If Obama was going to be Spinal Tap and start at 11, I'm going to book 11 right away. You know, it's the one that he needed to have on that list. And, what I did, my strategy was to read some reviews and the words,"Sparse, millennial and nomadic," kept coming up. And I think really, as much as Twitter was about people communicating, I think it was a tool for authors to really hone their craft. So I love this idea of sparse millennial writing. It makes me feel like I'm going to log into someone's Twitter account and read something really, really wonderful and disturbing, in a novel format. So I have very, very high hopes for this one-- they may not get met, but I'm starting in a good place with it.
Sam Hiyate:Awesome, Kathryn.
Kathryn Willms:Yeah. This one, I'm also interested that they-- all I really read was one word, one review, and it said"Cuskian," after Rachel Cusk. I now use the word Cuskian in my life. And if something is Cuskian, then I am a hard yes to it.
Sam Hiyate:Great. And then Diane, we'll end with you.
Diane Terrana:I'm the dissenter. I like the setting. I like the concept. Love the idea of the main character, but the description made me think it's an episodic novel. I don't like episodic novels. So I decided, okay, my decision will rest on the opening pages and there I was still-- they were good, but not brilliant. So I'm actually still waffling. Haven't got an answer for this one, still thinking about it.
Sam Hiyate:Perfect. So thanks everybody. I'm going to find a way to get this to Obama. We might have to go through this guy called Biden, but I think we can do it.
Diane Terrana:This was fun. Thank you guys for coming on and discussing this, Chris and Kathryn. That was fabulous.
Kathryn Willms:Thank you.
Chris Houston:Yeah, hopelessly outclassed, but I learned a lot. And, I look forward to reading your choices. Now you've sold me on all of them.
Sam Hiyate:Well, that's episode two folks. Thanks so much for listening. Thanks to everyone who participated. And I want to also thank our amazing producer, Andrew Kaufman, and, heads up-- stay tuned for episode three, which will feature a panel discussion on transparency in the publishing and book world.