This week we discuss the rise of graphic novels in North America, Risque YA and we pair books and wines. Our panel discussion features writer, filmmaker and graphic novel creator, Ho Che Anderson and Senior News Editor of Publishers Weekly, Editor of PW Comics World, Cohost of the More to Come Podcast and editor of The Fanatic, Calvin Reid. Diane Terrana weighs in on how far is too far with YA, and Sam Hiyate and Natalie MacLean, the author of two bestselling books and the host of the podcast Unreserved Wine Talk pair CanLit classics with wines.
This week we discuss the rise of graphic novels in North America, Risque YA and we pair books and wines. Our panel discussion features writer, filmmaker and graphic novel creator, Ho Che Anderson and Senior News Editor of Publishers Weekly, Editor of PW Comics World, Cohost of the More to Come Podcast and editor of The Fanatic, Calvin Reid. Diane Terrana weighs in on how far is too far with YA, and Sam Hiyate and Natalie MacLean, the author of two bestselling books and the host of the podcast Unreserved Wine Talk pair CanLit classics with wines.
Hello, and welcome to Agent Provocateur episode four. This week, we have an update on the success of graphic novels.
Calvin Reid:I'm telling you, we're living in a special time for comics right now across the board. Artists have more options--
Sam Hiyate:We have our own Diane Terrana on risque content for YA works.
Diane Terrana:YA is for kids 12 and older. Everyone knows that 12 and 18 year olds are practically a different species. Yet these YA books are lumped together.
Sam Hiyate:And we have literary wine pairings with Natalie MacLean, a friend, and a brilliant wine expert.
Natalie MacLean:Most importantly, this wine has great structure, important for books too, as I understand.
Sam Hiyate:Graphic novels-- they've reached 1.3 billion in sales. Is this the result of Disney buying Marvel? Is it the pandemic and the fact that we've gotten bored of Netflix, and we want comics? To see if this trend will continue. We've put together a panel-- I'm going to introduce you to the panelists. Today. First we have Calvin Reid-- this guy is probably the busiest guy in New York. His here's titles: senior news editor, Publishers, Weekly; editor, PW Comics World; Cohost of the More to Come podcast, which, if you've never listened to it, it's got 10 years of awesome comic history. Hi, Calvin. Welcome.
Calvin Reid:Hey man. How you doing? Long time no see.
Sam Hiyate:Also with me is Ho Che Anderson, filmmaker, graphic novelist, comics writer, illustrator, and, most recently, the new creator of Luke Cage, Power Man, for Marvel. So yeah.
Calvin Reid:Can't wait, man. I can't wait.
Ho Che Anderson:Thank you brother.
Sam Hiyate:All right. Awesome. So I want to start-- Calvin, you for PW, you had this report at the end of June saying that we had the best year of all time for comics in North America, where, between all of the different formats and comics, we reached almost$1.3 billion. So what do you-- how do you interpret that? What's going on?
Calvin Reid:People like reading comics and you know, what they really like reading them when they're trapped in their homes for a year and a half and they can't get out. What you're seeing with the graphic novel market is what is going on across, frankly, the entire book publishing world, even periodical comics, which have been slipping over the last year. They're not really the preferred format, for new generations. I'm not knocking periodical comics. They made me the goofy comics fan that I am today, but really, what consumers want and how they want to consume comics is changing. And like I said, the explosion in reading, I mean, we just published a story, I think yesterday. I forget what the underlying metrics are, but reading increased by 20% over the last year. And this is reflected across the book publishing world and the graphic novels world. And I'll wrap this up really quickly-- but let's remember, before the pandemic hit, in early 2020, the comics world, both the periodical and the book trade, we were expecting this category to continue to grow at a phenomenal rate, which it has been doing for the last four or five years in a row. So, more of the same, but people trapped and are desperate.
Sam Hiyate:Yeah, yeah, no, totally. Ho, as a creator, do you feel like this is a boom time for comic creators?
Ho Che Anderson:You know, to be honest with you, I have very little kind of perspective of what's going on in the medium, simply because for the last like four years, three, four years, I've just had my face buried in my work. So I haven't had much time to come up for air to really observe what's going on. So when I hear Calvin say that sales have ballooned in the wake of the pandemic, I'm actually legitimately shocked to hear that. I had a conversation-- I had an exchange with Howard Chaykin about a year ago where I asked him when his-- you know, he did a series in the eighties that I'm still passionately in love with called Time Squared and the third volume, thank you, Calvin. And the third volume, which was supposed to have come out by now. And he told me that the pandemic had sort of pushed that to the side, somewhat. And I thought that given the fact that, the governments were handing out stimulus packages and handing out relief for people in trouble. I thought that would have resulted in less sales. So to hear that the opposite is true is-- I mean, it makes a certain amount of sense, but it's also surprising. So, yeah.
Calvin Reid:Well, it doesn't surprise me that you've been working and not looking at the Diamond's and BookScan sales charts. I absolutely get that, but really I'm telling you, we're living in a special time for comics right now. Across the board, artists have more options, online sales, even though they put retail, that's physical retail is in jeopardy-- exploded, but still retailers, because they don't quit, they found a way to make this work and their community surrounded them to support them-- both comic shops and local bookstores. But I don't want to go on and on, but believe me, we're living in a special time right now.
Ho Che Anderson:I've seen it reflected. I mean, my local is a place called The Beguiling here in Toronto. And yes--
Sam Hiyate:You guys have good taste.
Ho Che Anderson:So, outside, they have a booth out front that says,"The doctor is in." You can't go in the store, but you can still get your comics curbside. And I always see people lined up there. So, yeah, this was good to hear that we're still keeping the bricks and mortar alive in this pandemic age.
Sam Hiyate:Calvin you touched on the online thing. And I was a little shocked, last year when DC comics announced their digital first comics. And I really wasn't sure what they're up to. So does that mean that they're doing everything digital and then they'll do the graphic novel compilations in print later? Or does it mean everything is digital?
Calvin Reid:No, I mean, DC has been doing a lot of digital comics for a lot of years. I mean, this isn't new. I mean digital offers big publishers, particularly comics published in-- anybody doing serial publishing-- an opportunity to put a lot of material out and decide what works, what fans want, and what they will reissue, or do, or collect in print. And from what I understand about their digital publishing, I mean, they do it alongside their print publishing. Now, DC is in a big disarray right now because of what Warner Media is doing. Everybody's kind of scratching their head.
Sam Hiyate:There were some layoffs--
Calvin Reid:There's been a huge number of layoffs, changes at the top. They basically completely let go their whole direct market sales stuff. I'll point everyone to the More To Come podcast, where we talked about this stuff incessantly, over the last six months to a year. But, digital publishing remains an important part of what the situation is right now. It doesn't mean periodicals or comics are going away, but it really means that people have more ways to get the stuff that they want. And there's a whole group of fans that want their comics that way. Now they can look at this and say,"This is really blowing up. Let's collect it in print as well."
Sam Hiyate:Got it. So, Ho, through one of his contacts, sent me the news about the relaunching of the Milestone comics"Dakotaverse," which seems to be getting a lot of excitement online. You guys have any-- Ho, any thoughts on this?
Ho Che Anderson:The fact that it's returned is incredible. I don't know. It's such a different landscape today than it was back in the early nineties. In some ways, I'm not going to-- what I was going to say is, in some ways we've kind of moved beyond the need specifically for a Milestone-- but then I think back to where we've been in north America for the last four years, especially since January 6th, and then I start to reevaluate that statement. So I'm actually very glad that Milestone has made its return. I think that probably come about at exactly the right time. So yeah. Well, we'll do.
Sam Hiyate:Okay. So as well as straight superheroes and literary graphic novels like King, Ho, your great book, This One Summer, and the classic Maus and Persepolis from the Pantheon people, a new wave of realistic superheroes are becoming huge hits on TV. I'm thinking here, especially of Amazon with The Boys and Invincible, both which seem to be doing really well, because it's that thing about-- and I remember this as a kid reading that book, The Science of Superheroes, where they talked about what would actually happen if Superman and Lois Lane actually made out-- like, it could be dangerous for her--
Ho Che Anderson:It would be dangerous!
Sam Hiyate:So any thoughts on this? Like the different-- emergence-- of these genres and the realistic superhero? I think now is the time.
Ho Che Anderson:I'm going to take this one. I feel like I'm going to grab on this one first. I'm of two minds, cause I'm just about to dive into the superhero world myself. Actually, I've been there for a little while-- working on Captain Canuck and now with Luke Cage-- and my natural worldview is to keep things grounded. But at the same time, we cannot forget that these are people in bright costumes, telling morality tales, and that is a perfect vehicle for children. So I never would want to lose what appeals to-- I mean, a kid doesn't want to read about the gray areas of life. They don't want to read about corruption that is not punished. They want to read about stuff, that corruption, where it is punished and where the lines between good and bad are very clearly drawn. At least that's what I think most children respond to. That starts to get a little more complicated as they get older. So part of me laments the fact that there's not enough, it didn't seem like enough of the material is geared towards just the pure joy storytelling that is going to attract children. I feel like when you've got a guy in a costume like that, when you try to add too much gray to him or her, it can sometimes kind of muddy the waters a little bit. And yet, there's still an audience out there that is going to respond to that. And a person like me is going to want to explore those gray areas. So I guess I'm just saying that I'm a little nervous sometimes when I see too much adult storytelling in mainstream superhero comics-- just because I don't want it to be the barrier to attract the next generation. Does that make any sense? I want them-- the stories, to do this, that'll make--
Sam Hiyate:That makes a lot of sense. There's a moral or ethical dilemma that these producers are playing with.
Ho Che Anderson:In my opinion. I mean there's room for both, obviously. It's just that I worry sometimes that we might be veering a little too much towards the grim and the gritty, in terms of our superhero comics. But that's just me. Calvin, I'm dying to hear what you have to say.
Calvin Reid:Well, superhero comics translated into movies. Really, we just entered into a good period. That combination of special effects, Hollywood gatekeepers, or specifically directors, actually deciding that if we cast them with really great actors, actually work on the scripts, you know what-- anybody will love these stories. They are iconic characters. Even people who don't read the doggone comic books, they were immersed in the mythologies of Superman, Captain America-- what they represent in terms of human aspiration. You know, that's where comics get you. So to be able to transform them into movies, which let's face i t, is the most popular-- I mean, th em a nd what video games? I mean, it's just a perfect storm of all of the stuff coming together around great storytelling.
Sam Hiyate:I guess my last question is what's the future of all these genres. Cause I feel if the market is growing so quickly, I feel like it's-- even though Ho's emerging from his creative chaos and realizing this-- Ho you're going to get people on bidding wars for your work soon, I'm sure, especially after they see Luke Cage,
Ho Che Anderson:Your words, to God's ear, you know how that phrase goes.
Sam Hiyate:So, we've got this market and what I'm noticing is a lot more people are doing it-- because for a long time, it seemed like Kickstarter was where a lot of stuff was going. But now I'm noticing like here in Canada, we have Lev Gleason, which is now becoming a North American company. My friend Brendan Deneen, who co-started Scout Comics. So there's all these new entrants to the marketplace. So I feel like there's going to be a great opportunity for new talent that was never there before, because now we're at$1.3 billion, and if the online sales are almost$200 million or whatever they are, it's like, serious markets. Yeah. You guys have any thoughts on the future?
Ho Che Anderson:I love the democratization of the medium and I love the fact that there's so many outlets out there where you can get creative, work that is done driven by pure passion and by ideas, out into the marketplace. And, that there's an audience for it. I just wonder though how much, how many people are going to be able to make a living out of doing it, just by the sheer number of people who are out there? But listen, this is not an informed opinion. It's just a one jerk.
Sam Hiyate:You're worried about the artists. You're like, how are they going to eat? I love that.
Ho Che Anderson:I wonder about that.
Sam Hiyate:I worry about that too.
Ho Che Anderson:It's a tough business out there for everybody. And the more competition there is out there, the harder it is for any individual to let's say, manage to like break through the pack, to make a living. So in terms of artistic expression and in terms of the range of subject matter, I think it's never been better. And I think it's only going to get better. In terms of sustainability, from a business perspective. And I'm quite, I'm not questioning that, but, you know, Kickstarter's provided great incomes for a lot of emerging cartoonists. So there's, there's clearly a way to do it.
Calvin Reid:Uh, yeah, I'm going to echo that. I mean, I didn't go into all of the-- describe the market today as a perfect storm. But, really it is. And the biggest part of what I do believe will make this sustainable is that the North American comics market is no longer a one genre marketplace. I love superhero comics, but if the world is a bigger place, than American superhero comics, and you don't see a market like the U S anywhere else in the world-- where only one genre is considered to represent the entire medium-- that's done. Now, superhero comics are still the dominant genre, but we, if you buy comics, the book trade has genuinely made comics for everyone because you got to publish stuff. That's not just for this narrow thing of eight teenage white dudes,. I mean, we have a market that women have, the indie side of the market, which is really a natural market for the book trade, is exploding. That crowdfunding has impacted so many people. New imprints are launching it seems every day. Not only do I think it's sustainable, I think we're in for a long run of growth and it's never been easier. It's never been easy to be a comics artist and it probably never will be. But any artist-- being an artist is a vote of confidence in your own talent. If there's always going to be a risk, but we're seeing a marketplace now that there are more options for comics to make a useful amount of money than I have ever seen before. When I was a kid-- and that was a long time ago-- either you worked in superheroes, maybe you could do gag panels. And if you were really lucky, you become a syndicated newspaper cartoonist. I mean, that was it. Maybe an illustrator.
Ho Che Anderson:Yeah. Yeah.
Calvin Reid:There's a whole new, different world out here. The book trade, you can do so many different things, including just crowdfund the thing. So, I can go on and on, but I'm going to stop there. This is a good time to be in comics.
Sam Hiyate:Yeah. Thanks everybody. Calvin Reid, and just like one final plug-- he is a genius. You gotta hear the More to Come podcast. Just Google it. It's part of Publisher's Weekly.
Calvin Reid:Ho is a genius! King is one of the great works of American-- North American-- literature. Somebody needs to take that book and make it into a movie. I hope it's still in print. Isn't it?
Ho Che Anderson:Yes sir. A new edition.
Sam Hiyate:Ho got a note from Fantagraphics. And also, it just sold in Brazil.
Calvin Reid:That book is great!
Sam Hiyate:Our own Executive Editor, Diane Terrana, asks how far is too far with young adult?
Diane Terrana:Hello, authors. I was recently in a discussion about YA novels that deal with tough subjects. We were a panel of authors whose books were rife with trigger warnings. At the end, the moderator asked a question about boundaries."Is there anywhere you wouldn't go in a YA novel?" I was surprised that most of the authors said they would be solely guided by the story's needs and would go wherever it took them. Let's think this through. YA is for kids 12 and older. Everyone knows that 12 and 18 year olds are practically a different species, yet these YA books are lumped together by publishers, bookstores, and libraries. Adults usually buy for young teens and there is no special shelf for young teens, just teen literature,.Older teens buy for themselves, often preferring adult books. To further confuse the issue, a confounding number of adults devour YA-- just check out Goodreads if you don't believe me. So what the heck is the target audience? Well, it is still 12 to 18, in spite of those adult readers, who by the way, are probably responsible for pushing some limits. When a book is labeled YA there's an unspoken covenant that the material is age appropriate, and not just for the older end of the spectrum. I hope we can all agree that some things are not appropriate for kids, even if we disagree about particulars. And that certain levels of violence or sex are deeply problematic in YA novels or memoirs. So let's circle back to those authors who say,"It's all about the story." Who subjugate everything to their book as though it is sacrosanct. No one loves stories more than I do. I even worship certain authors. And though some stories are in the realm of sacred literature, books are not sacred. Kids are. And if you aren't willing to put the interest of kids in front of the interest of your story, should you even be writing children's literature? Maybe you should just stick to adult books. This is Diane Terrana, editor with The Rights Factory. Thanks for listening.
Sam Hiyate:for those of you who can resist everything except temptation, there's nothing better than mixing, thinking and drinking. Our next piece pairs bottles and books. Today we're chatting with Natalie MacLean, who is the author of two best selling books and the host of Unreserved Wine Talk, which the New York Times named,"One of the seven best drinks podcasts." Hi, Natalie, welcome to Agent Provocateur. Or as they say in English, Agent Provocateur.
Natalie MacLean:I love it, Sam. It's great to be here.
Sam Hiyate:Awesome. I'm so excited to have you. Today, I thought we'd be pairing iconic Canadian books with various wines. Let's start with Jael Richardson's debut, Gutter Child. This is a fierce coming of age story set in a dystopian world, which is divided between the privileged mainland people and the disadvantaged gutter inhabitants. The heroine is one of only 100 babies taken from the gutter to be raised in the mainland as a social experiment. But when her mainland mother dies, she finds herself fighting to survive.
Natalie MacLean:Good choice. I love this book, Sam. I think of this book as haunting, like it stays with you long after you've finished it. And that is actually how I think about great wines too. You just keep remembering them. They keep coming back to you. And so, I think I would pair Jael Richardson's book with a local favorite from Niagara, 30 Bench Small Lot Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, actually. And it's made by rockstar winemaker, Emma Garner. And it's bold and it's brooding, but, most importantly, this wine has great structure-- important for books too, as I understand, It's got a long finish that lasts forever. So I think it'd be a great pairing with Gutter Child.
Sam Hiyate:Oh my god, what a great line. So great structure, and a finish to last forever. I feel like you're reviewing the book there. It's awesome
Natalie MacLean:Books and bottles, right?
Sam Hiyate:So Natalie, are there dystopian wines? Like what would you do with Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's tale?
Natalie MacLean:Right. It's actually funny you bring that one up because I actually selected it as a book in high school for a book report, which really worried my English teacher, because it's got such dark themes. So I absolutely loved it, but I guess in the spirit of a dystopia, I'm going to do an anti-pairing, Sam. I don't want to pair this anti-pairing-- do not pair this book with the Handmaid's Tale Wines.
Sam Hiyate:Wait, wait, wait.There's something called the Handmaid's Tale Wines? Is this like from the Handmaid's Tale world that somehow got transposed across the multiverse to here?
Natalie MacLean:It did. So MGM, I think it was-- I wrote about these wines a while back. But they did a partnership for the TV series and here's why I don't recommend them. You'd think it'd be a natural pairing. They named each wine after the characters in the book, like Offred. So Offred's Pinot Noir was described as beguiling and seductive and she needs to-- anyway. But I thought, why are you naming these wines after the possessive n on-n ame non moniker of the women's commander? Why not use their real names like June and Emily, if you really want to get all empowerment about it? So instead, I would recommend pairing Handmaid's Tale with Nasty Woman Wines. I love these. They're from Oregon and Washington, and each of the labels of these Nasty Women Wines, which were founded on election day, 2016-- not g oing t o go there-- but anyway...
Sam Hiyate:We can call it anti-Trump wines.
Natalie MacLean:No, no, no. They are anti 45. But each label features a real-life woman, in sort of like a gritty black and white photo. They're staring confidently at the camera. There's no photoshopping, no mommy's juice and whatever, but one of the labels has the picture of Cheryl Strayed, the bestselling memoirist of Wild. Yes, exactly. So I just love it because she's on the label for Persistent Pinot Gris. Of course the winemaker had to get permission, but they tell the real stories of real women and the struggles they went through. And 20% of the profits go to women empowerment groups. So I love the whole backstory and back label of this wine, frankly. So I think that'd be a perfect pairing, whether you're reading Cheryl Strayed's Wild or The Handmaid's Tale, because persistence is everything in flavor. This wine has a persistent lime zest. And I think most importantly, whether it's books or bottles, it has no bitter aftertaste.
Sam Hiyate:Oh, another great book description. I'm going to use that. I'm to call you and say,"Natalie, how would you describe this book?" Cause then I'll just use it to pitch it to editors.
Natalie MacLean:Exactly. Just substitute the word book and bottle. You'll be fine.
Sam Hiyate:Awesome. So not that this will happen that often in our lives, but let's say we're stuck on a boat with a tiger. What would be a great wine with, let's say Yann Martel's Life of Pi,
Natalie MacLean:Right. Well, let's see, that I would have to go with a dessert wine. Right? I know it's"pi" versus"pie," but anyway, I would go with Tinhorn Creek's Kerner Icewine. So it's got these luscious flavors of ripe apricot and peach and honeydew notes that I think would be perfect with Life of Pi, pie, and maybe having your cake and eating it too.
Sam Hiyate:And maybe the tiger has a sweet tooth. So you just have to give the wine to the tiger to knock the tiger out. Then you can escape.
Natalie MacLean:Distract the tiger. Put the pie at the other end of the boat. And you drink the wine at the other end.
Sam Hiyate:Perfect. What about-- let's move things along here. What about Emma Donohue's Room? This is a story of a young mother and her five-year-old son, Jack, who are both held captive in a small room for many years. It's told from Jack's perspective, which is fascinating, especially after they're freed from the room. Jack doesn't want things to change because that's all he's ever really known, but eventually when they both revisit the room, he's able to let it go-- which is I guess a message about trauma? Anyway, the room hasn't changed, but he has.
Natalie MacLean:Yes, yes, exactly. Wow. Yeah this was a wonderful book. Again, sorry to lasso it back, but this is my job here. I think wines change over time too. So, you know, I always love-- there's the first time you try wine and it has a certain taste. But then, if you go back to that wine, like a different bottle, but of the same wine, years later, the wine has changed, but so have you. And you know, when I open the same bottle years later, decades later, I can often remember exactly where I was, who I was with, what I was even eating, because our sense of smell is the only sense that ties directly to emotion and memory in the brain.
Sam Hiyate:That's really interesting
Natalie MacLean:Yeah, cause when Proust was eating that Madeline, it didn't bring back everything because of how it tasted, it brought back everything because of how it smelled. You know, as he ate it, you get the smells. So, I love doing that, revisiting old wines, old books, just to see how I've changed over time. So given Room is a very tightly confined setting. But eventually it's very expansive in its scope. Universal. That's the ideal for books and bottles-- to start with the specific and go wide. I would probably go with a Bordeaux, a blend of Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Merlot, from a very good vintage though, like 2020-- 2020, of course wasn't a great vintage for humans, but it was spectacular for wines.
Sam Hiyate:So somebody won. And apparently it was a good year for books. If you look back on it.
Natalie MacLean:Yeah. Well, there you go. See, there's a silver lining or whatever. But a Bordeaux like Chateau Clarke would not be ready for drinking right now. You want to have patience, put it in your cellar so that it knits together over time and then comes out more subtle, more complex, more enjoyable. As I say, patience does have its rewards with books sometimes when you have to get through the tough slog, maybe at the first or through the middle, but in the end, if you can stay with it, often that's the reward., right?
Sam Hiyate:Thanks so much, Natalie. This has been so enlightening in so many ways. Except now I feel like-- and I'm not a day drinker, but I really feel like I need a glass of maybe something red.
Natalie MacLean:Then I've done my job.
Sam Hiyate:Okay. So where can we find you and these pairings?
Natalie MacLean:Sure. So you can find them all at my website, nataliemaclean.com. And I would love to hear from thirsty readers and listeners, if they have a favorite book or bottle pairing, or if they've got a book that they want me to pair. I guess the last pairing I would make Sam, is with the book that you and I are working on, my memoir and I take solace from a number of the books that we've just talked about were rejected multiple times from various publishers. So I'm going to be tough and I'm going to be hopeful and optimistic this fall when we go out with the memoir on submission. And if not, you and I Sam, we're just going to have a glass or four together, right?
Sam Hiyate:I'm going to say it's going to be a bottle of something bubbly. That's my prediction, when we're done this whole enterprise. Thanks so much, Natalie.
Natalie MacLean:Cheers, Sam.
Sam Hiyate:Great, great chat.
Natalie MacLean:Thank you.
Sam Hiyate:That's our show folks. Thanks for your time and attention and to all of our guests for coming on. Once again, we're grateful and very thankful to our producer, Andrew Kaufman. And if you do like us and are enjoying Agent Provocateur, please subscribe for free at agentprovocateur.substack. com. And come back next week, when we talk about Harry and Meghan's big book deal, and we have our panel on men in publishing and boys in books. Until then, take care.