This week we have two panels. First, Jamie Lynn Spears sparks a discussion about celebrity sibling memoirs moderated by our brand manager Anne Sampson, with agent Kathryn Willms and editorial assistant Claire Cavanagh, Second, editor Diane Terrana shares her opinion piece, "Trigger Happy," followed by a more in-depth panel on Trigger Warnings where Sam Hiyate moderates, featuring agent Natalie Kimber, and author Andrew Kaufman in discussion with Diane.
This week we have two panels. First, Jamie Lynn Spears sparks a discussion about celebrity sibling memoirs moderated by our brand manager Anne Sampson, with agent Kathryn Willms and editorial assistant Claire Cavanagh, Second, editor Diane Terrana shares her opinion piece, "Trigger Happy," followed by a more in-depth panel on Trigger Warnings where Sam Hiyate moderates, featuring agent Natalie Kimber, and author Andrew Kaufman in discussion with Diane.
Welcome to episode three of season two of everyone's favourite publishing podcast, or soon to be-- Agent Provocateur. I'm Sam Hiyate, Chief Agent Provocateur at The Rights Factory. And I'm so grateful for your attention. Thank you so much for listening in this week's show. We only have two items. First, a lighthearted look at memoirs by unfamous siblings.
Kathryn Willms:Think siblings are the best things and they're your team. And clearly Jamie Lynn is just not on Brittany's team right now.
Sam Hiyate:Then-- heads up, we're taking a long look at a big issue, which is trigger warnings.
Natalie Kimber:You're triggered by the trigger warning.
Diane Terrana:I'm triggered by the-- no, I'm outraged by the fact that people get to say, I don't want to hear or be around or see pregnancy or childbirth.
Sam Hiyate:So stay tuned and hold tight! At the end of 2021, the#FreeBritney movement had a big win-- Britney Spears conservatorship officially ended. Now three months later, while Britney seems to be living her best life on social media with her hunky personal trainer fiance, her sister, Jamie Lynn has released a tell-all memoir"Things I Should Have Said'" about her childhood, the pressures of teen stardom, and of course her relationship with her sister. There is no shortage of celebrity family members willing to capitalize on the tell-all memoir genre. To discuss"sizzling" rivalry, we have our brand manager, Anne Sampson, agent Kathryn Willms, and editorial assistant Claire Cavanagh.
Anne Sampson:I'm Anne Sampson, brand manager of The Rights Factory. And I'm joined by TRF literary agent Kathryn Willms, who you may remember from our previous Britney book segment. Hi Kathryn.
Kathryn Willms:Hello!
Anne Sampson:And also Rights Factory editorial assistant and fellow pop culture aficionado, Claire Cavanagh. Hi Claire.
Claire Cavanagh:Hi.
Anne Sampson:All right, so first question. So who owns their story when it intersects with someone else's? So maybe more specifically in the case of celebrity families, does it make a difference, kind of ethically or morally, if the one telling all is the famous family member or the less-famous family member or the not-at-all famous family member? What do you think, Kathryn?
Kathryn Willms:Thanks, Anne. Well, first of all I must confess-- see what I did there? I am not following this story closely at all because it's just really sad.
Anne Sampson:Yeah.
Kathryn Willms:But you know, on one hand, like who doesn't love a sibling rivalry? Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau and Noel and Liam, the Roys. Now Jamie Lynn and Brit Brit. So, normally I'm in, but this is like watching"Tiger King"-- it's painful. And I don't think there are any winners, um, but I'm on a podcast, so I'm taking a side. So Jamie Lynn can absolutely write her story, but I think the issue here is that she's always profited off her bigger sister and, that's like not just her book as her whole career. So, and I'm sure that was super aggravating and I'm sure she didn't have any control over that then, but now she is 30 years old and she has chosen to write this book and then go on TV and talk about this. And yet again, it seems like she is profiting. And you know, I think, I want to again, to quote one of my favorite artists, Jamie don't, you know, you're toxic? And I guess to the second part of your question, I just think this is a question of punching up or punching down. And I think we all made the same mistake as Jamie Lynn for a long time. And I think we continue to make it, we think we're punching up, because someone's beautiful or wealthy or famous, but in fact, we're punching down-- we're blaming people that are victims of this system for the system. And, you know, Jamie said she wrote this book to heal her trauma, but she's retraumatizing another victim of the same system. And I think, you know, we should say let's all agree to, you know, put our sights on the right, the people that are really doing the damage here. Little kudos to Mary Trump, that was punching up, that was appropriate.
Anne Sampson:What do you think, Claire?
Claire Cavanagh:I feel there's kind of, when we talk about this, there are two categories to this. So I feel on one side you have the kind of unknown people that write things. For example, Megan Markle's sister that you talked about. Or I know that Madonna's brother wrote a book about her literally called"Life with my sister Madonna," years ago. And then on the other hand, you have people that have their own public profile, like Caitlyn Jenner or Jamie Lynn Spears, that kind of write their story, while also talking about their famous family members. And I think that it's an argument that they're always making and you see Jamie Lynn right now saying,"It's not about Britney, it's about me. It's not about her," but this becomes very disingenuous, which during the promotional cycle, they use stories about their famous siblings to then sell the books. And I think that that's when it becomes very complicated. And I think that that's what people don't like about them. And Jamie Lynn's case, it's very interesting because she does have a great story. I mean, Jamie Lynn's own story is very interesting, but then therefore, why is she constantly talking about Britney in this.
Anne Sampson:Mm-hmm.
Claire Cavanagh:So yeah, I think that there's definitely kind of two different categories to it, and I think that it's quite complex to think about, but I think using it in order to sell the books and for promotion is where the kind of issues start to come into this.
Anne Sampson:Yeah. And I think, Mariah Carey, last year or the year before it, also published her memoir, and I think both of her non-famous siblings sued her for their portrayal in the book. And her brother, suing her for like--
Kathryn Willms:That's just savvy! Defamation or something. I think can't remember what it was, but basically her defense was that it was in the public interest, because people wanted to hear her story and her story was so inspirational that it should wipe out anything that she says about anyone, basically, which sounds like a very M ariah Carey take on that k ind o f an issue. Alright, so maybe next question. I just, I really understand the motivations in that case because you want to, you want to sue the person that has all the money.
Anne Sampson:Yeah.
Kathryn Willms:Like that makes sense.
Anne Sampson:Yeah. Well it's definitely that kind of, like you had said, Kathryn, the punching down in that, that case, because you know, her sibling things aren't known and Mariah Carey's, you know, incredibly...
Kathryn Willms:You mean Julia, Julia and Mark.
Anne Sampson:Yeah.<laugh>.
Claire Cavanagh:I will say actually that Mariah Carey's sister is slightly, no one only she, she herself has a very, very sad life and she's come up, you know, in the public. So that actually becomes a little more complicated because there's a huge amount of kind of trauma there. But kind of speaking about the Mariah, you know, no one was complaining about Mariah writing about the non-famous siblings. You know.
Anne Sampson:It's true.
Claire Cavanagh:Which is kind of interesting also, so yeah. Yeah. Another, another complicated one.
Anne Sampson:All right. So then next question. What are your thoughts on the timing of this memoir? So obviously it's very convenient that it's coming out at this point, and the publisher's hoping to capitalize on#FreeBritney. So do you think it would've made a difference, kind of morally, ethically, if she'd published this, you know, a year ago before this had reached a fever point or even a year from now-- six months from now-- when the dust had settled a little bit. What are your thoughts, Claire?
Claire Cavanagh:Can I just say, I have been kind of reflecting on this today. I actually listened to a podcast all about Jamie Lynn's memoir today. And I've been just thinking I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in that publishers--
Anne Sampson:A hundred percent, a hundred percent
Claire Cavanagh:About this book, I am fascinated by their choices here. And I think, I do think for the publisher they're in between a bit of a rock and a hard place with this. Because look, they do need to bring it out when there is interest there.
Anne Sampson:Yeah.
Claire Cavanagh:But I also do wonder, as Kathryn was saying, it is sad. There's so much affection for Britney and everyone, you know, everyone's been following it a lot. And I think at this point, people just want Britney to be able to live her life. And while I don't want to say there's Britney fatigue, because I don't think that will ever be a thing. I do wonder if the interest is going to maybe wane in the whole thing very, very soon.
Anne Sampson:Yeah, and I almost wonder if it's like, it was in the publisher's best interest for the book to come out now, but maybe not in Jamie Lynn's best interest for the book to come out right now. Yeah. What do you think, Kathryn?
Kathryn Willms:I definitely agree, Anne. Yeah, I think so too, because, you know, I think on the publisher's side, like it's a Christian publisher, which is kind of interesting to me and I think, you know, I'm kind of wondering who they thought was going to read this book. And like, so people are saying it's not selling well, I'm like, what were their expectations for it? Like I literally was like, who would read a Jamie Lynn memoir? And, I don't want to judge. Anyone here can please, please read it. But I'm, I'm actually curious. But then in terms of sisterly relations, what a disaster! I don't, I don't want to get sentimental here, but I have five siblings. And I'm sure they will feature prominently in my future memoir, Kat's Sat, I'm calling it. No subtitle. But I just think siblings are the best things. And they're your team. And clearly Jamie Lynn is just not on Britney's team right now. And I think that's just really sad and I just want to be, you know, she's a Catholic, these are our oldest stories, Jamie Lynn, like, let's just get there. Be a little self-aware about what you're doing. And, yeah. So I feel like I agree with you, Anne. I don't think this was good for Jamie Lynn in, in any respect.
Anne Sampson:Yeah. All right. So last question then. Are you going to read Jamie Lynn's memoir? If not, is there another celebrity whose sibling's memoir, you are itching to read. Kathryn?
Kathryn Willms:I'd say, bring on Courtney-- one of the Kardashians. Let's go. Let's-- let's see how much.
Anne Sampson:I want Rob's.
Kathryn Willms:Rob's, Rob's memoir. And also Maggie, what does she think of all these blind items about Jake Gyllenhaal. I'm curious. And, of course, Prince Harry, Anne's favourite.
Anne Sampson:Oh, yes. Kathryn and I already discussed that previously on the podcast. We're both itching for that one.
Kathryn Willms:What about you, Claire?
Claire Cavanagh:No, I won't be reading it. And one thing, I mean, Kathryn, you were saying it's not selling very well. I haven't looked at the sales figures for it, but these books don't actually do very well, usually. Like they don't have big sales figures. And I find that interesting-- people aren't very interested in them. And usually one of the criticisms is because they don't really tell all, like there's a lot missing from them. But for a celebrity I would read, I would probably read Rob Kardashian if he really went in there and actually told us all. I will also say, I am not above a trashy, unauthorized biography. I read one on Kate Moss years ago. And if her brother were to publish one, I'd probably read it as well. You know? So I'm not, I'm not above these. Definitely not.
Anne Sampson:I think I'm with both of you. I think Jamie Lynn, I'm probably not going to read because I think it, it falls into this trap that happens with a lot of celebrity memoirs where all the juicy bits just get put up on US Weekly, and then you don't really need to read the whole book because most of it's there. One celebrity memoir I definitely want to read though-- and this is for anyone who's a Real Housewives fan-- is Kim Richards, because...
Claire Cavanagh:Yes.
Anne Sampson:Kim Richards is the sister of Kyle Richards, who's also on the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills and Kathy Hilton, Paris Hilton's mother. And they all grew up as child stars or particularly Kim was the child star. She really carried that family. And there was a big falling out a couple years ago when Kyle produced like a semi autobiographical television show about their experience growing up. And they've talked about like going to Studio 54 with their mother when they were like teenagers, quite young teenagers. So I think Kim has just lived this really wild, incredible life. And I can't wait to read about it. And I know she's gonna talk about her sisters, so.
Claire Cavanagh:There was supposed to be one, but I've heard that it is since canceled.
Anne Sampson:I think it's coming out. I checked online today. And Amazon has it coming out in like September or something, so.
Kathryn Willms:Oh, fantastic. I can't--
Anne Sampson:I think it's getting pushed back, so.
Claire Cavanagh:Okay.
Kathryn Willms:So we'll see,
Claire Cavanagh:But I am with you on that one and maybe we will have a later episode on that.
Anne Sampson:Yes. Oh yeah. A hundred percent. We'll be back when that one comes out. All right. Thanks both. That was a lot of fun.
Claire Cavanagh:Thanks Anne.
Kathryn Willms:That was great, Anne! Thanks so much.
Sam Hiyate:Okay. Trigger warning. We're about to talk about trigger warnings, which are becoming big in books in not only how they're being taught, but because they're also cultural products available to consumers that may-- and indeed should-- provoke strong emotion. This is a hot button issue, especially after some opinions last year came out asking whether trigger warnings really work. To set up our panel. here is an opinion piece from TRF executive editor, Diana Terrana, after which our panel of author Andrew Kaufman and agent Natalie Kimber will discuss, with me.
Diane Terrana:England is making today's editorial, Trigger Happy, too easy-- way too easy. The University of North Hampton slapped a trigger warning on Orwell's 1984, a novel that dramatizes the dangers of censorship and thought police. And the University of Salford is worried that Jane Eyre and Great Expectations will cause their students distress. When I grew up Bronte and Dickens were part of the childhood reading canon, I read and loved both those novels before I turned 12, just saying. So now I'm going to list five reasons to rethink trigger warnings. One, they are so inclusive, they're meaningless. Take the University of Reading's 2021 list. It includes pregnancy and childbirth. Students are triggered by pregnancy and childbirth. Worse, professors have to accommodate them with trigger warnings and an adjustment of course content, if needed. Wow. What's next to help these frail beings? Will pregnant women be banned from the classroom? Pregnant women have been banned from public life before.. Two, this triviality mocks victims of genuine tragedy. The parent whose child has died, the family whose village was bombed, the kids whose parents were murdered-- are not, not in the same category as those of you traumatized by the well-known trigger, smoking. Three, this trigger warning count as elitist. Take the popular eating disorder. Why is it special? Why is it on everybody's list? All psychiatric orders cause suffering. Be egalitarian. Get out the DSM five, a 947 page manual, that itemizes mental disorders, then add each one to everybody's list. Four. There is an anti-feminist female factor. Trigger warnings began appearing on feminist websites and in gender studies classes circa 2000, hence were slanted to girls and women. Harvard law professor Jeanie Suit Gerson has written about female students too triggered to attend classes on rape law. So instead of prosecuting rapists, these young women are plugging their ears and saying LA LA LA LA LA LA LA. Why? Why are we resurrecting the Victorian fainting lady? A hundred years of fighting the concept that women are weak and unsuited for public life. And now we're actually trying to prove it's true. And finally, Five-- there's an unpleasant performative aspect, some trigger happy individuals take out their sensitivities, polish them up and put them on display like trophies. Proof that they are gentler and more virtuous than those of us who don't act out when we're triggered. And don't insist on constant public acknowledgement that we, like all sentient beings everywhere, suffer. Thanks for listening or yelling at your computer, whichever happened.
Sam Hiyate:And with that editorial, I'm going to introduce the trigger happy panel today of starring all your favourite Rights Factory people. So starting with Diane.
Diane Terrana:Hello.
Sam Hiyate:Welcome. Natalie Kimber.
Natalie Kimber:Hi.
Sam Hiyate:And stepping from behind the producer seat here at the Rights Fa-- oh, the Agent Provocateur podcast, we have Andrew Kaufman stepping in as a writer and thinker in his own right.
Andrew Kaufman:Hey Sam, how are you?
Sam Hiyate:Hey, good to see you, man. So, Diane, there's lots to decompress there. The Victorian fainting lady is interesting. The fact that books, following, I guess, in other kind of cultural products, books are being given trigger warnings. Let's start with Natalie, because you're, kind of in the middle here, I think between Andrew and Diane. What's your thinking about trigger warnings?
Natalie Kimber:I heard you echo that term, the fainting Victorian lady or the Victorian fainting lady, something like that. And that leads me to the concept that gets thrown around a lot in these conversations, which is that of fragility, as if it's something to be avoided. I think fragility is a term that's misplaced. When what we're really talking about is vulnerability. I keep hearing that word, you know, in these discussions when, and I think really, as far as students go, as far as readership goes, when is enough enough? We already ask youth, who are growing up in this crumbling world, late stage capitalism to be stronger, stronger, and stronger all the time. We de-emphasize personal human emotions all the time for what? Usually, it's for profit. Trigger warnings, just by existing, apart from how much a person chooses to read or consume content after them. They come from a place of consideration and care. That's a great place to start in any interaction. An analogy I want to bring into this is something that deals with extreme trauma, or, you know, personal trauma or direct experience, in peace making settings and dialogue sessions, it seeks to build trust and for the path to reconciliation in war conflict zones, et cetera. The first step to establishing that, you know, that atmosphere in which you can build trust is, um, establishing human empathy, acknowledging fragility, acknowledging trauma, and establishing a safe space for expression and listening. Trigger warnings for us as readers actually have a similar function. They establish care for the reader from the jump. And I think that's why they're important.
Sam Hiyate:Wow. Okay. That sounds awesome. The idea of fragility versus vulnerability is a good point. Andrew, let's move to you. So vulnerability, what do you make of that?
Andrew Kaufman:Yeah, I mean, I think that's what it's all about and I feel like, so I'm all for trigger warnings. I think they should be on everything. I literally think that's the least we can do. And so I have two points. One it's like what we are. So what is considered being too sensitive, being too vulnerable has been moving for as long as I've been alive. Right? So there's like a whole bunch of queer culture. There's a whole bunch of like feminist rights who, which in the seventies and before, would be, would you know-- where we think the bar is now-- has moved a lot. And I feel like, to go against trigger warnings is to stop that movement to a really more sensitive, open place. And then the other thing I would say is that it's like, I feel like trigger warnings, get a bad rap because people interpret them as avoidance. It's like, if I'm reading a book or I'm oh, looking through a book and I see a trigger warning, oh, I'm gonna put that book down. And I don't think that's how trigger warnings work at all. I feel like trigger warnings. I see that as like,"All right, well, I know that's coming," right. So it doesn't just take me by surprise. It doesn't like, just like, oh, all, you know, I did not think I was gonna have to deal with that today. And people who are going through major trauma, it's like, and that's a really good thing. Right. So I don't understand the hesitation at all.
Sam Hiyate:So speaking about people going through trauma, I think we, we now can say safely that that's everybody, all the time.
Andrew Kaufman:No, but that's not fair at all. Right? Because there's people who are going through major trauma, that there are people that other people aren't. And I mean, I acknowledge that everyone is working through trauma. The biggest trauma they've ever had, right. Everyone has the biggest trauma by definition that they've ever had. But I don't think that really acknowledges that there are people going through major, major stuff on the scale.
Natalie Kimber:I think that we can mostly agree that trauma disproportionately affects, the poor, the oppressed and marginalized people. And these are all the same people that we want to increase our readership with. So doing something that offers them a safer space is a better way to, you know, bring them in and give them more books, give them more topics. Another thing is that I always am reading any kind of articles about this-- one came out from the new Yorker last fall. Another one came out from Vox. Of t he sort of counterintuitive ideas behind why not to have trigger warnings. A lot of them say this idea that trigger warnings don't lessen the traumatic response for people. So you can be warned about, you know, sensitive content. And then when you come across, it, it doesn't, you know, lessen, however you're gonna respond to it. And in that case, I just think that doesn't mean that we just like take it out altogether. You know, I think it still has a place. Andrew, you mentioned it, you know, just knowing i t, i n not having that surprise factor, is, you know, is a good reason.
Andrew Kaufman:Yeah. I think Diane, I think we need to speak, and hear from Diane for a second-- before that, I just wanna say it's like, for me, I mean, I'm, I'm personally working through a pretty major tragedy. I don't really want to talk about it, at all. But I, you know, it's like, I think everyone here knows that I'm going through this thing. And when I have, when I'm consuming culture and an episode that is like the episode I've experienced comes up. If I know it's coming, then I know to get my, you know, my methods of recovery, and all that sort of stuff. You know? So it's like, I think of trauma, like, like a hot water burn where the sooner you can get cold water on it, the less intense it's going to be. And so if I have a trigger warning, then it's sort of metaphorically, like I'm gonna get, you know, the bucket of cold water out. So I know when to use it, does that make any sense?
Diane Terrana:Absolutely. I would only say, I distinguish in my editorial between people who are going through major trauma as you are Andrew, and the vast hoards who want to be known for being traumatized, the people who are traumatized by smoking, the people who read a book and are traumatized if they come across a pregnant woman. I mean, at some point that just makes a mockery of real trauma, as I said, and it makes the whole concept of trigger warnings absurd.
Natalie Kimber:But so I think what you're talking about are like extreme extreme cases or sort of outliers on the spectrum of what we would call a trigger warning.
Diane Terrana:I wish.
Kathryn Willms:I really don't think that books particularly are giving trigger warnings for pregnancy or childbirth.
Diane Terrana:They are. They totally are-- i n the University of Reading if you are teaching a book or in a lecture.
Natalie Kimber:But you're talking about pedagogy and teaching not--
Diane Terrana:But, uh, it--
Natalie Kimber:Putting them in the front of books.
Diane Terrana:Natalie, how long is it going to be? Because now professors have to point out to their students, trigger warning, there's a pregnant character in this book or, we're discussing, I don't know, hopefully it's not medical school and we don't have people fainting at the OB lesson. But how long since that is encrypted now in a university's reading trigger list before...?
Natalie Kimber:So if you-- but let's just take that pregnancy or childbirth. If that is something that is on a university list, is it better for somebody to be like, oh, well, that's just, that's not really a thing. You can't really be triggered by pregnancy or childbirth or about, you know, the few people that may actually be triggered by it. Is it better to have it there?
Diane Terrana:No.
Kathryn Willms:When it just offends a few people.
Diane Terrana:No.
Natalie Kimber:For the rest of us, we're just like, oh, who cares?
Diane Terrana:It's absolutely misogynistic.
Natalie Kimber:Just for the, the last few, the few tiny people. If it's there, it's probably there for a reason. And rather than just, you know, the people that are offended by it or don't really agree, are they actually hurt being offended or not really agreeing?
Diane Terrana:Because I find it misogynistic. I am very hurt and outraged by it.
Sam Hiyate:So guys, are you saying, Are you saying that--
Natalie Kimber:They're triggered by the trigger warning?
Diane Terrana:I'm triggered by the-- no, I'm outraged by the fact that people get to say, I don't want to hear or be around or see pregnancy or childbirth. How long before pregnant women aren't allowed back into public life, because there was a time when they weren't. You couldn't be a pregnant teacher, you couldn't work if you were pregnant. I mean, it's hard.
Natalie Kimber:Cause I think we're confusing why trigger warnings are existing? You're talking about them being used to then ban certain identities or characteristics, or.
Diane Terrana:I'm saying we can--
Natalie Kimber:Or circumstances from public life, which is not what trigger warnings are there for.
Diane Terrana:It's not what they started out as, but how long before, since professors now have to-- I can't even imagine I was a high school English teacher-- I can't even imagine how I would teach a novel, any of the novels I ever taught under these restrictions, how the list on the board...
Natalie Kimber:You can still teach it and you can still show the material and you can still, you know, have a robust conversation about it. To say that something is triggering is to say that it could provoke sensitivity. Not that the triggering thing involves an identity that is wrong or that involves, you know, needing to be banned from society.
Diane Terrana:Natalie, people don't have to go to classes if they're going to be so triggered, like what I mean really address.
Natalie Kimber:And sometimes I think we need to decide if that is better for the person who's not going to the class or not. Because I think in studies with classrooms, it's shown that the students that are going to use that as an excuse are very few and far between. Now in the case, I know you brought up in your argument.
Diane Terrana:The law school.
Natalie Kimber:That certain law students are, allowed to not take the classes on rape prosecution. And if they're triggered by that. In the spectrum of law, if you don't want to work in, you know, on rape cases and you don't, you know, that's not where you wanna work in your practice, then maybe you shouldn't have to take that class. If it's something that is problem for you. It's kind of, it's kind of saying how many people are going to take advantage of it, and use it, for their leisure or some other, you know, stupid reason. And then versus how many people are actually gonna benefit from it.
Diane Terrana:I'm not suggesting that people are going to use it as an excuse. I'm saying we're creating a whole generation of people who are being encouraged to polish up that fragile part of themselves and to opt out of public life. Now, can you imagine, you're saying law students who are offended by rape law, shouldn't have to take it. Well, half of law-- or more-- is about crime. It's tough stuff. Prosecutors and defense lawyers deal with tough, tough stuff every day. Should medical students be allowed out of certain classes, out of certain areas of knowledge, because they're only gonna be a family physician or say a radiologist because they're triggered.
Natalie Kimber:I'm not sure they should, but I also think that those are really extreme examples. When what we're talking about is less common. You know, what we're talking about are ideas of trauma that are much more, consensus, like, you know, suicide, murder.
Sam Hiyate:Smoking etcetera.
Diane Terrana:Yes. Smoking.
Andrew Kaufman:I know, but there's smoking.
Natalie Kimber:Grocery stores...
Andrew Kaufman:But wait a second, lemme just ask.
Natalie Kimber:Spongebob Squarepants. Who knows?
Andrew Kaufman:Let me just ask this question. It's like, Diane, are you worried that like, I like trigger warnings because I feel like they're making our society more inclusive. But you're worried that that inclusive or that sensitivity is actually making our society worse. Is that your argument?
Diane Terrana:Well, I would say it's very bad for women. It is bringing back the Victorian fainting lady, the woman who fainted at the slight provocation, languishing on her divan, with her smelling salts.
Andrew Kaufman:But you're talking about lawyers and rapes.
Natalie Kimber:Extreme.
Andrew Kaufman:Like that's-- you're making-- I feel like, like if you're saying that trigger warnings may make the society too sensitive and that's going to take us backwards. I mean, that's an argument and I can hear that. Is that the argument you're making?
Diane Terrana:Not sensitive, Andrew, I'm saying you can be sensitive. I believe I am a genuinely sensitive person. I'm triggered by many things and I don't go around insisting people bow down to that in front of me. I'm saying--
Kathryn Willms:And that's your right to believe that. I'm saying it makes this more--
Andrew Kaufman:Why is that? If there's a piece of text at the front of the book says,"Hey, anyone who gets upset by this idea, just know it's in here." Like, how does that--
Diane Terrana:Well.
Kathryn Willms:How does that 17 words affect you?
Diane Terrana:Because they're getting longer and longer, and they're getting more inclusive and I would say more absurd. And in the end, I think it's just kind of a bonkers idea. And it's leading to a kind of preciousness, like fragility is being lifted up and, and being tough a little bit tough and saying, yes, this is life. Everybody bloody suffers in it. And let's not have students get out of law school. Let's not have students insist. So the Jane Eyre school--
Natalie Kimber:They still have to take the classes and graduate.
Diane Terrana:Hear what the professors have to do here. I'll just tell you-- I was a teacher. So I'm going, are you kidding me? They have to open up their classrooms early and allow those students who might be so offended by books. I read as a child, to come in and work it out with the professor. So a professor could theoretically have 15 students come in each one 10 minutes. How much time is she dedicating-- or he dedicating-- to, you know, working out their issues with Jane Eyre or Great Expectations.
Natalie Kimber:I think we all know that those few, that those students are going to be very few in number.
Diane Terrana:I would say one is too many as a teacher. That would be just too many.
Natalie Kimber:It's too many? One is too many to give 10 minutes of time to be compassionate to?
Diane Terrana:About Jane Eyre or Great Expectations, you know, teachers. And thank God they're not fragile have to work with students who come to school traumatized every day by real life things. And a lot of their time goes to-- to that-- not to, you know, issues in books, they're reading literature does reflect the world and conflict and problems.
Natalie Kimber:I would argue that students are faced with having to be extreme, you know, more tough, having to go by all kinds of unrealistic standards. When they walk into a class, then they're just being catered to, I think that's, that balance is, you know, Ugh, I think that balance heavily favours the students having to pull more out of themselves than they should be expected to long before. We're just coddling them.
Diane Terrana:Let me ask you this. I taught Toni Morrison. I taught in a private school, so I was able to put the books I loved on my course list. And I taught Toni Morrison in all of my English classes. Now, those books are as tough as they come. They have some of the most frightful things imaginable in the world, in them. If I were to follow sort of the rules at the Reading University or the university that's, that did Jane Eyre and Great Expectations, I would have to have-- the blackboard would be covered. I would get there an hour early and cover the Blackboard or whiteboard with the list of possible triggers in a book. And then I would have to open my classroom to everybody who wanted to talk about it. Now, did I have people coming to talk to me about the book after they read it or difficult scenes? Normally we talk those through in class, as a group of people because we're studying literature, which is tough stuff.
Natalie Kimber:And a lot of classes still have the class discussion and that students aren't just being allowed to completely opt out. They still have to handle study guides and they have to make up that time. There's almost never a case where, because of a trigger warning, a student is just, you know, doesn't have to do any work at all.
Diane Terrana:And so, Natalie, I don't know how you know that actually, but I don't know whether it's true or not, but so can I ask you, are you guys both happy with smoking as a trigger warning? Downtown Abby had trigger warnings. This is what got me going two years ago. I was watching Downtown Abby. I'd seen it before. And the trigger warnings came on-- Language Smoking and Sexual Violence-- well there was some sexual violence, but I'm looking at language and smoking-- smoking. There are people who are being coddled because they're triggered by smoking. Please. And the language.
Andrew Kaufman:So if somebody who wants to stop smoking is being coddled.
Diane Terrana:Oh, come on, Andrew.
Andrew Kaufman:I think there's such a judgment in your words. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to say it like that, but it's like, here's what I-- so I've got a little program on my computer and it's one of those add-on programs. And anytime the word"politically correct" comes up in anything, it changes it, the text, to read,"caring about the feelings of others." And it's like, it's amazing because you always hear all these people saying,"Oh, I don't want to be politically correct." And then the text says,"I don't want to be caring about the feelings of others." And I really feel like that's what it is. I feel, I'm putting words in your mouth right now-- I feel like this is the politically correct argument. And I feel like, you know what,"politically correct" just means that you're caring about other people and what could happen and what is wrong with that?
Diane Terrana:Well, do you see any boundaries to it because you can freely associate anything. So the person who--
Andrew Kaufman:If you're asking me, is it going to get abused? I'm gonna say yes.
Diane Terrana:No, I wasn't saying that I'm saying.
Andrew Kaufman:Totally going to get abused.
Diane Terrana:Do you believe.
Andrew Kaufman:It's gonna get taken too far? Absolutely.
Kathryn Willms:And you're fine with that. Who are going to g ame the system? One hundred percent.
Diane Terrana:And you have no issue with it being taken like,'cause you could free associate to anything disturbs you, traumatizes, you reminds you of something. Right? So smoking...
Andrew Kaufman:A h undred p ercent.
Kathryn Willms:Language-- and this is Downton Abby, the language by the way. And the language was like"Damn,""Blasted".
Andrew Kaufman:Yeah, we could take it to so many places and I'm sure it's going to, and then it's going to get pulled back. It's a pendulum.
Sam Hiyate:Sorry to interrupt Andrew. Here's a question. So are we worried at all? Like what does this mean in the long run? Because, does it mean that eventually there'll be censorship in that people will say,"Oh, I don't want-- these are major trigger things. I'm not going to put them in my story." Is that something you think could happen?
Diane Terrana:And university professors are not going to put things on their courses. Absolutely.
Andrew Kaufman:Oh, worse than that. And I already know examples of this, like the politically climate we're in right now. There are certain things that-- I mean, you guys as agents must know this as well, that are just are not marketable right now. There's certain stories, certain writers certain takes-- right? So it's like, it is the politically, the climate that trigger warnings is that is generating trigger warnings is shaping the economics of publishing. No doubt. And I'm not a big fan of that. I really wish that wasn't happening. I think that is bad. I just don't think that any reaction's gonna produce a reaction. Right. So now we're in a place where we're trying to say, yeah, this stuff is messed up. We should like, let's lean into the people who get messed up by this. So I'm-- so yeah. Is that, does that have fallout? Is that going to have a reaction? Is there gonna be a shadow to that movement? 100%.
Diane Terrana:So,
Andrew Kaufman:And then it's going to swing back.
Diane Terrana:Maybe, maybe. Can I just ask you this. So is there, in the same way that I will look at people who are physically ill, say, and I'm willing to say that the kid with metastatic cancer is suffering a hundred million times more than the person with a head cold, no matter how much head cold person complains. Is there not a problem in doing that, in saying, that the person with the head called feels like they're suffering as Natalie was saying, they feel like they have trauma. And yet, so we're supposed to level-- put their trauma at the same level-- we put, you know, very tragic trauma.
Andrew Kaufman:I don't see that happening. I don't see it. I don't see that happening now. I don't see that happening in the future.
Natalie Kimber:I also think it deserves to be said that you don't have to have direct experience with trauma to want a trigger warning or content warning,
Diane Terrana:Should newspapers have trigger warnings? You would need a newspaper in front of the newspaper to do that, right?
Sam Hiyate:Well, this is where we're getting into this meta level. I don't know if you guys know the Borges story about the map, the country of mapmakers who were so obsessed with making perfect maps, eventually they grew them and grew them and grew them. So the maps were the same size as the topography that they representing. So I worry that at some point, the trigger warnings will be the same length as the literary product.
Andrew Kaufman:But that's also assuming that everyone's an idiot, right? And it's like, let's not assume that.
Diane Terrana:Really?
Andrew Kaufman:Let's assume that readers are smart people. Let's assume that publishers are smart people. Let's-- I will overly admit that there's some overreaction going on for sure. And let's just admit-- or let's hope-- that we're all smart enough in this industry that we will get a handle on it. And in 10 years time, the trigger warnings will only be there for the really intense stuff that messes people up.
Sam Hiyate:That's a great, I think a great mandate. And I think we should end here because I feel like we could go on for days and I think we're out of time. So, yeah, maybe final thoughts. Everybody's looking at me.
Diane Terrana:So I'm just saying, so Andrew, you do think some things, some trigger warnings are ridiculous, then.
Andrew Kaufman:Yeah. In the context of right now, I'm not gonna say to stop anything. Because I feel like the idea isn't strong enough. I think the idea has to take root and then, then we can, then we can prune it back. And I don't think it's taken root. So it's like, I feel like part of whether where this society is right now, is that we have to like really let the pendulum swing over and let these ideas gain some, some toe hold, so that they're not just gonna be taken out. So yes. That's where I am. That's my final thought too, Sam.
Sam Hiyate:Okay, great. That's a good final thought that we're in the early stages of what this all means for culture. Natalie, a final thought from you.
Natalie Kimber:Yeah, sure. I think that it's wrong to say we won't make time for people and we shouldn't have to make time for people's vulnerabilities, or we shouldn't have to make space to help people feel safe. Trigger warnings are ineffective if they don't offer a choice to opt out. Now in the classroom setting, it doesn't mean students always get to opt out. Oftentimes they're just there, as you know,"This is what we're gonna talk about today, but we're still going to talk about it." They're also doing a disservice if books or content is banned or categorized or classified because of them, which, then in that case, I agree with you, Diane, because if we are going to classify books or ban books, because they have pregnant women, then of course we're going in the wrong direction. But I do think that that's extreme. I think trigger warnings exist to preserve freedom of speech and to not support categorization that cancels content. And I think that overall, I mean, we don't get to choose our memories, especially traumatic memories. And this is about making time and giving space for people to feel safe.
Sam Hiyate:Okay. Well, thanks everybody. I feel like it's a good thing we all work together and we're all on Zoom here because things didn't lead to fisticuffs, and we're all one(still) one great happy family. I can still feel the love, despite the minor disagreements-- or major disagreements-- today. Thanks everybody.
Diane Terrana:Thank you. Good to see you guys.
Natalie Kimber:Thanks.
Andrew Kaufman:Bye. Bye everybody.
Diane Terrana:Good to talk to you guys.
Sam Hiyate:That's our show, folks. Thanks so much. If you could do us a favour. If you like us, please share us on your socials and comment. Review us. Do whatever you want. But, good or bad, we want to hear it all. Today. I want to thank all of our panelists and especially Andrew Kaufman, for stepping up from behind the microphones to talk about trigger warning, as a guest. We recognize that trigger warnings are an intense subject and we'd love to hear your opinion. Feel free to click on the contact link on our website at therightsfactory. com or reach u s via our socials and send us your thoughts. Thanks again for listening. See you next week, where we'll revisit the all important question o f a uthor platform. T ake c are.