Kate is joined by Rory the Vet and Oli Juste, dog behaviourist, to discuss all things pet and separation. Kate and her guests explore all topics related to pets, divorce and separation – from pet anxiety when their owners split to whether ‘petnups’ might be the way forward.
Dr Rory Cowlam, also known as Rory the Vet is a practising veterinary surgeon in the UK. Rory has a popular television presence with a leading role in the CBBC show The Pets Factor now on its 8th series of production. As well as this, Rory has appeared on Blue Peter, BBC Breakfast, Lorraine, CBBC HQ as well as Saturday Morning Mash-Up.
Oli Juste, is a UK based dog behaviourist, who provides positive, modern, ethical dog training with an emphasis on behaviour to dogs and their owners all over the UK & Europe through his 1-on-1 Online Video sessions. Oli, from Channel Four’s Puppy School, also featured in This Morning, The Telegraph, Dogs Today, Metro and Hello Magazine.
Please note: this episode was recorded before the introduction of no-fault divorce in England and Wales, and may mention the previous legal system. For accurate information on the legal process of divorce, please visit amicable.co.uk
Kate is joined by Rory the Vet and Oli Juste, dog behaviourist, to discuss all things pet and separation. Kate and her guests explore all topics related to pets, divorce and separation – from pet anxiety when their owners split to whether ‘petnups’ might be the way forward.
Dr Rory Cowlam, also known as Rory the Vet is a practising veterinary surgeon in the UK. Rory has a popular television presence with a leading role in the CBBC show The Pets Factor now on its 8th series of production. As well as this, Rory has appeared on Blue Peter, BBC Breakfast, Lorraine, CBBC HQ as well as Saturday Morning Mash-Up.
Oli Juste, is a UK based dog behaviourist, who provides positive, modern, ethical dog training with an emphasis on behaviour to dogs and their owners all over the UK & Europe through his 1-on-1 Online Video sessions. Oli, from Channel Four’s Puppy School, also featured in This Morning, The Telegraph, Dogs Today, Metro and Hello Magazine.
Please note: this episode was recorded before the introduction of no-fault divorce in England and Wales, and may mention the previous legal system. For accurate information on the legal process of divorce, please visit amicable.co.uk
Welcome to the divorce podcast, a podcast that aims to address divorce separation. And co-parenting here in the UK countering the often sensationalist way it's portrayed in the media, challenging the status quo and driving for reform. On each episode, I'm joined by experts to discuss divorce, separation, and key parenting from different angles and to give their opinions and to debate them. I'm Kate daily, a relationship counselor, divorce coach, and co-founder of amicable the divorce services company. I'm also host of this divorce podcast. In this episode, I'm delighted to be joined by vet Rory coulomb and dog behaviorist Ali, just Dr. Rory coulomb is known as Rory the vet, and is a practicing veterinary surgeon in the UK. Rory has a popular television presence with a leading role in the CBBC show. The pets factor now in its eighth series, as well as this war has appeared on blue Peter BBC breakfast, Lorraine CBBC HQ and Saturday morning, mash-up where his warmth and pat knowledge of one in many fans, including my children in their younger days. Ali is a UK based dog, behaviorist who provides positive, modern, ethical dog training with an emphasis on behavior to dogs and their owners all over the UK and Europe through his one-to-one online video sessions, Ali from channel four's poppy school is also featured in this morning, the Telegraph dogs today, Metro and hello magazine. Welcome both. Thank you for having us. Thank you. It's quite a CA both. Thank you for joining us. So guys, today, we're going to be talking about what happens to our pets when a divorce or separation happens within a family. So what the animals experience, but also a little bit about their healing role and the role that they can play in our onward lives too. So let's start with Ali. We know you're an expert in dog behavior. So in your opinion, do dogs experience anxiety when their owners separate Ollie? And is there anything we can do to mitigate this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, certainly we, we know that due to different degrees, every dog, different all dogs are very different. So they would experience the world around them differently. Some dogs will really suffer from the change of routine. And I think one of the things that you have to think about when it was just when you had a dual ownership of a dog and all of a sudden there's only one owners or one human looking after that dog, what you have is, you know, the, the, the attention that Doug used to have is split in two. And they have some withdrawal symptoms. You know, the dog will be desperate to get your attention. You know, who's going to be doing the walks, who's going to be playing at home. Who's going to be doing the training. Who's going to be taking them to the bathroom and so on. And so there's a real, yeah, that's a really effective, it's just missing someone that's that, that used to be there, not only from, um, because they know there anymore, you know, and, you know, dogs get attached dress, they create oxytocin tools, uh, tools us, and we create oxytocin that love hormone towards them. And so when that attachment isn't there, when that person is gone, that's it, you know, there's that, that's definitely going to impact the dog as I suppose, sometimes with empathize with us. And sometimes they're very good at trying to make you feel better if you're sad and they will they'll know that you're sad about a little cloud of hormones that you have around you. And I'm sure if you're going through a divorce, you will, a separation year. You're a little cloud of omens is going to smell like stress is going to smell. You're anxious. You're going to be worried. And, and your dog will pick up on that. Some dogs will be really good at are trying to make you feel better, better. Some of the dogs might not decide to be, it might not be their things just like humans can, some humans are very good at caring and others, not so much. And so some other dogs may just become more redrawn and sort of not necessarily knowing what to do and just feel sad.
Speaker 1:And Rory do you as a, as a fat, so you see a whole range of animals. Are there some animals that are more prone to that anxiety that all is described?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, working in a city, I see predominantly dogs and cats, but I do see everything sort of from rabbits to Guinea papers, to small ferries, to birds, to all sorts. So I get a wide variety of patients come in and I, and stress is actually something we see huge amounts of anxiety. It's sort of a buzzword at the moment and not for the reasons we're talking about, but because of the world we're living in, unfortunately, but absolutely it is completely applicable to these sorts of situations. And when there is higher levels of stress and higher levels of anxiety in our home. And, and I know we're talking about sort of when there's been separation, but actually even in the lead up to these things that there's often not necessarily bad blood, but there's, there's stress flying as there's, there's possibly arguments within the household is raised voices and our dogs and our cats can be very, very sensitive to that. Cats actually are particularly sensitive to stress. And, and, and, and, um, some of the symptoms we see with them are things like pulling their own hair out, which is crazy. Cause you don't think you think of it as a human thing when they will overgrow to a point where they sort of nibbling their own hair out, they can get cystitis, they can get colitis and dogs as he rightly points out, w will often either go one of two ways. They'll either come very, very clingy and very, very sort of by your side, trying to be there for you or they'll completely withdraw and go into their own shell. And they'll sort of hide away to exhibit anxiety themselves.
Speaker 1:It's really interesting what you're saying about the buildup to a separation as well and where there might be, you know, the anxiety and there might be that kind of breakdown of the relationship playing out because we often say, you know, trying to, it's impossible sometimes to say you shouldn't argue in front of children, but what we say as parents is, well, if you argue in front of the children, you need to demonstrate that you can resolve the argument as well. I guess that's really tricky, isn't it?
Speaker 3:Absolutely. And I think we underestimate how much these guys understand they really do. And I don't know, Ali shares my, get my opinion on this. I think adults are so tuned in they're so checked into us and their home life and us as people. And they will pick up on these tiny little changes in the way you're behaving. So we can always sort of put the brave face on or act as if we're we're normal and happy. And in our normal day lives, the dog content like the dog knows. I mean, I, a hundred, I've got Nala, my, my dog, she, she tells when I'm, I'm just not quite right. And in sometimes it's actually a wake up to me, but I'm not quite right. So actually being able to sort of show resolution to a dog or show that actually it's all okay. Is really, really tricky.
Speaker 2:I remember the first time we argued with Rob my partner in front of the dog and, uh, he was very little and we don't argue very often. So you might have been quite a few months already. And I remember being in the stairs and just like, ah, I'm kidding. And we looked at Bernard and our dog, and it was just all like sort of crashed looking at us. And it really made us realize that we had to be a little bit more careful. And I suppose if the dog had been habituated to arguments, it might've just gone up. They added it again. But because it was such a rare thing, it was definitely something that we, um, we've not really done again since like we we've learned perhaps, uh, talk to each other more politely, even when we angry, discuss the doctors. And I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:I have the same experience. I was yelling at my son during lockdown and the cat was just standing there like Meow, like at the top of her voice watching us. And it took me a minute to realize what was happening. And the cat was really kind of, you know, son was going for it and I was going for it, but the cat was really upset and it made me really think about your home life and how you need to be much more conscious of your animals in your home when you, when things are difficult
Speaker 2:And I've had to, and I've had cases, which is interesting. I've had cases where the dog would attack one of the person arguing. So I've had a guest is, and usually that usually the, the husband, the male, the male comes apart where the, I mean, not always, but in my, in this case, is it was, it was, it was the man just to sort of didn't, you know, just, just, just felt perhaps, as Rory said, there was perhaps a scent in, in his little cloud of home on that college, you know, that, that meant perhaps he was a bit more angry than it would have been before. And he felt it wasn't the sort of argument they had before and he felt he had to protect the other human in their home. We've seen that with Doug's protecting the children. That's something that happens very often. It's, well-documented protecting the children when parents get angry. It's, you know, but couples as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. I've seen that with men as well. And particularly men, I, I haven't seen a case where, where a woman's been attacked a female in their relationships being attacked, but absolutely I've seen, I've seen dogs side with it's weird. It's like, it's like picking science. And I think often there's a, there's a dominance thing with a male and dog relationship there. There's, there's almost that natural sort of that's what our or natural, slightly more alpha relationship you have is that as a man with a dog. And I think, and I will a lot of people, and obviously I'm talking in generalizations here, but that's, that's often the case. And what I think sometimes happens is when, when a man raises his voice and you get that sort of more gruff, more loud or aggressive, you will push the dog from actually into nervousness and then sometimes over into aggression and as ADI, at least to absolutely if there's any really good relationship with the female owner as well, often then the protective mechanism comes in. It's, it's an odd one, but is it's interesting.
Speaker 1:So when people are experiencing the separation and, and the breakdown of their relationship, are there things Ali we can do to protect our animals,
Speaker 2:Trying to give the routine goings dogs are most dogs are very in tune with the routine. And I think it's always very nice when you have a puppy to introduce the puppy to a multitude of routines. So the dog is already used to sort of changing environments and so on. So just making sure that some sort of routine going, but introducing gently new routines. And then the recipe is always the same, you know, making sure that the duck has a safe place and a safe place could be a crate. It could be a bad, it could be underneath the human's bed. It could be somebody I hope to be my dog safe place. I know that if is in a tricky situation, he'll, especially if we are outside is likely to come to me because he knows I'm not going to put him in the, into any further stress. So I think, I think just being aware of your dog's body language, learning about your dogs, but then it takes a few minutes to check out. I've got a video on YouTube, a lot of other adult China's and they have stuff. Videos of signs of stress in dogs is good. And look for signs of stress in dogs, and just make sure that you're aware of the signs so that if your dog is saying to you, look, I'm yawning. I'm licking my nose all the time. I'm an ESL bag. I, I'm more sensitive to I'm hyper sensitive to certain things that you're well aware that this is anxiety. And then, then you just give you some time, some love, some attention. I know sometimes it's hard, you know, if there's a divorce and you have to work more, you have less, you know, you have less time to look after your dog. You may need to just get a dog sitter. You may need to get some sort of help for the dog, I think is, is just as important. You know, they, they are resilient, but we it's our job, you know, we've made that decision to, for them to be our dogs and we have to look up to them.
Speaker 1:So when you're looking after an animal, a pet and you're going through a separation is very often one person is going to move out. How can you manage that process for an animal Rory when one person is effectively leaving
Speaker 3:With difficulty, I think is the, is the, um, and I, I must stress on this point about routine. And I think whenever changes happen, whether it's in a divorce or whether it's any, any other time in life change in a dog's routine is often a big stressor. And I think trying to keep things the same. So my first piece of advice would be, don't take the dog from their original habitat. Don't let someone leave with the dog dog in that home because they know that home that's where their safe spaces and keep those things the same. Don't upend everything. Obviously, if we're leaving that environment, you're going to have to, but if you can keep them in that environment, do I think then keeping contact with both parents as it were, or porridge is Katie. And I think that that that relationship needs to be nurtured and continued to keep a sort of, not a level playing field, but keep the dog comfortable and, and, and happening in there in that sort of environment and the, in their ownership and then positive reinforcement. I mean, using things like choosing distractions and keeping play times and keeping walks in your routine, because I think as those things start to fall apart in our own lives, often we will then neglect our own routine. We'll often neglect that hour long dog walk that we used to do at nine o'clock every morning, that will just start to become a 10 minute out to the park or whoa, actually, that might be the end of the day now, because that's the time I've got. But if you can keep everything the same while that person leaves for a few weeks to months in that transition, I think that's going to aid the dog. The other thing is keep everything else is much the same. So food, other people around other things like that should never be changed at other times of stress. Because again, that's just going to not on
Speaker 1:See in divorce. And in separation, we call this a nesting arrangement where in our language, the children stay put and the parents rotate in and out of the family home to, to care for them. And I guess that's a similar thing to what you're suggesting, isn't it keeping the routines the same.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I would have to say just was just that with two tags on what rose and just like with children, there's some situation where yes, the, the, I would perhaps be more specific with the environment. Yes. If you can stay in a home is great and that's, the home is not a safe place for the dog. So if there is a divorce and there is someone who's drinking, or if you know that one person was staying in a home is not going to be looking after the dog properly, that she would rather not stay in a home, but have the routine going with the person living there has. So I think just, just to specify that at the end of the day, it would be better for the dog to stay in a home. I agree. I will be careful of who's staying in the home with the dog and what's the best. And that just like with the children, I suppose it's really interesting because I work online and I remember having some clients, we were together on the first couple of sessions and then on the third session, once Korean arrive and the other was on the other screen and we're like, oh, we have to speak to you. We decided over the weekend to split up. They were a young couple. And so they carried on the behavioral cost together, which was a Doug had separation problems. And I was just like, oh, I gotta to help. But they managed to do it together. The new fat worked well and they were, they were going to do 50, 50 chats. She found a flat, she moved out and she found a flat really close, like not too close, but close enough to where did we, the idea it was an amicable separation. I don't know how it went over time, but then I have another experience with someone calling me. And they were a couple who were as a couple, they were already looking after one of the, some of the couple old dogs. They were already sharing an old dog, but not as a new couple, they wanted to get their own dog.
Speaker 1:Right. Okay.
Speaker 2:Yes. And it was, it was tricky for them. And I just felt like the person who was, you know, who was not part of the old relationship was sort of just looking after this dog every couple of weeks, but wanted his own dog. So then what happens to the old dog is your dog is coming weekly. And as a hot dog in his home is, you know, and I think it's just as tricky as with children, I suppose, is if you, if, you know, if you think about them just as, as you would your children, it's just as tricky. And the recipes is, I think you always have to be very specific on what's going on in that moment,
Speaker 1:Other animals than Rory. So dogs prefer to stay in one place, but you can ultimately move to a scenario where you've got a shared care arrangement effectively. What about other animals? Are they equally? So some animals are portable, but that does that mean that the Portugal animals it's okay for the portable animals to port between the two homes? Or is that not the point? The portability of the,
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, I think with sort of small furries, as they would be returned, that would be fine. I mean, traveling is often a stressor to them and they're quite sensitive to stress it all sort of rabbits and Guinea pigs and those sorts of potentially prey species. So moving them also, if their comfort zone, it can be stressful for them. So you can be careful. And you've got to know your own pattern often when you do have a good relationship with your pet, you will understand whether that's going to stress them out and you will be able to be the best person to know if that's going to be a stressor for them. So I think just ask yourself if that is, and if it's not the right thing for the animal, maybe be that be selfless. And actually don't enforce that journey on the cats are an interesting one. Cats are inherently their own sort of masters. They, they, they do what they want. They don't really listen to anyone else. The majority of the time, I think they'd lie though. Cats had a big lion do love us. They it's a big secret, but they do love it. And so with cats, the problem with cats, so that's super territorial cats moving into a new environment will often really upset them. So, I mean, we all know, but you get the Harriet out there to the back. So you get the carrier out to go to the cattery and the Casco. So I think cats, honestly, that's a really tricky one because I think transitioning them to a new territory would be fine. I'm talking about outdoor cats here because this is specific, but that's not something you want to be doing on an every two week basis or every month basis. That's not fair on the cat. So I think you've got to make a decision where that count's going to be, make the decision, and unfortunately, that going to study that, but that's going to be the best option for that with indoor cats, slightly different. However, they obviously do see the flat or the house as their territory. So again, you could probably, and I'd have to speak to an actual cat behaviorist about this, but from my experience, I think you would absolutely find, be able to get an indoor cat, to have two territories. It's two different flats or two different houses, as long as you weren't transitioning between them really, really frequently. So I think it would have to be say, okay, I'll have the cat for a month. You have the cat for a month or three months in three months. And I think that would be a better way of doing it. Transitioning them every week is not fair. So birds are interesting. And I think they actually have really strong bonds with one owner often. So quite frequently with birds, there will be a natural caregiver. So I would suggest in bird owners, you will know who the bird prefers, and it's probably best that the bird goes with them because actually with, with stress in birds, they often pluck their feathers. They can, I mean, they can actually die from stress birds if they're so sensitive. So I may be wrong about certain species, but absolutely with things like African grays, with buggies, with, with budget guards, they often have a single person they really imprint on. And actually that's the person that these birds just statement,
Speaker 1:Just thinking about what's been happening recently over locked down and obviously lots more people have. I've got dogs over that period. If you're in the unfortunate situation where lockdown has also bought your relationship to a close and you've got effectively a relatively new dog, what are the additional issues going to be for people who are separating with a fairly new puppy?
Speaker 2:Well, I just love that. It's just like, now we've just realized what it's like to be with your partner. Like now I've been with him for a whole year. I just don't want to spend time with them. It's so funny. He's like, that's not the case, by the way we got on really well, however, before we go any further, I think it's a good time to remind people who have gone through, well, I mean like downs, did we have 3, 4, 5, all those lock downs and who have hated it, that it is what dogs have to deal with every day. Doug's are basically in lockdown every day, they have a walk or two a day. They are at home, you know, where they are. They can't decide of where they go. They eat when we decide that they eat or when something will remember to eat, feed them. They are really much at the mercy of, you know, big brother really. And they lose all freedom. So we, it's really interesting how sometimes people will say to me, you know, I am looking after my dog, she's my princess. You know, I'm, I'm giving those bad, those things. She's got a special bed. Yeah. It's just like a gilded prison really sometimes. And someone said, once a writer says that dogs are prisoners in their own home. And all they do is look at us all day. And that's why, as Ravi said, they can guess they know exactly a body language, what we're going to do next they know, before we even do it, what we about to do, they can smell it. You can see it. So let's think about this before we, you know, because I think that's, that's that, that sort of makes us understand a little bit more, how dogs have been feeling and how some of them are feeling again, you know, they had us all days, but at least they were in a prison, but they had a, a mate. They had, uh, someone to share it with. And all of a sudden we all disappear. And yes, I mean the, the, the cases of separation related problems, uh, huge, I would say there were big before already, but it's almost all I'm getting at the moment. Or at least it's people are saying to me, I've got still the other problems that dogs used to have. But on top of that, I also have separation issues and I've had to help. It's really tricky. I think the best thing I could sort of help your listeners with is to be very specific in how you label the problem. So very often people could have separation anxiety, and that's really something that we should stop saying. We should call it separation related problems because anxiety is one emotional state and it's not always anxiety. The dog demonstrates oh, experiences. So you can have separation anxiety show. You could have separation frustration. You could have separation fear. You could have separation fun. Those dogs empty, the beans destroy the so far, you think, oh my God, I had a horrible time. But actually they had the best time. You know, look, my Christmas tree, this was fun. This was not separation anxiety. This was fun. So I think until you know exactly what your Doug emotional state is, when you live them, you've got to generalize it, anchor it separation related problem. Why? Because the way you're going to deal with it is different. If your dog is expensing frustration, you could potentially do a little control crying or a little control barking. I hate the expression, let him quieter because it really implies that you almost don't care and it's not, it control crying, letting your dog, perhaps just go look at the way you're expressing his frustration. You need to learn that. However, if your dog is experiencing fear, separation, fear, then leaving your dog to cry it out or doing a bit of control. Crying would be the worst thing you could ever do. Just like you would not let your child cry. If you knew he was experiencing fear, you will be back and you will be assure. However, if your child is crying because he likes to stay up and watch TV until nine, you're going to be like, well, honey, you're just going to have to get used to this. You're going to school tomorrow. So you see how you're going to be using slightly different techniques, depending on that, on that. When you have a child crying outside school, infant school, because it doesn't want to be with his mom anymore, you're going to make the difference between a child that is essentially experiencing fear. And doesn't understand why mom is an heir and a child has expensing frustration because mum is not there anymore. And actually it would rather, but then 10 minutes later, I'd be playing with kids and be like, well, actually that was fun. So the recipe that we gave, and I think I know it varies, you know, be very, we should all be very careful with giving general tips on how to deal with separation problems, because it depends on the problem. It depends on the job. It depends on the emotional state. It's not what we should stop putting in separation anxiety and refer to it as separation problems until we have assessed it. And then we decide, do we use mitigation? Do we use, I mean, if it's fear, if the dog is expensing fear, get yourself a behavior. That's you know, this is, this is, this fear is uncontrollable. The dog will pee. Poo want to stop barking, try to escape by their limbs, uh, demonstrating terrible sense of stress anxiety. It's not more fun, but at least you can sort of, you know, reason a little bit, you know, you can perhaps distract and so on. So it's really specific and it's always different.
Speaker 1:Um, one of the things that sometimes happens when we're dealing with people who are going through a divorce or separation, is that it's not a question of which parent has the pet, but sometimes neither parent can take the pet. You know, I'm thinking particularly where you've got a really tough situation where people are having to downsize because they've got to now create two separate homes. They might have to be going into rented accommodation where they're not allowed to keep pets. If you're in that horrible situation where effectively you are having to lose your pet, what are the kindest most ethical places to go ways to manage that scenario? Rory,
Speaker 3:I think each case is different and we're going to sound like broken records here. Cause there is no general advice we can give on these instances. However, I think for me, you've got to work out. Is there a possibility that either of you are going to be able to have this dog or this cat or whatever pack in the future? Is this just an interim thing or is this, this is it now I'm going abroad or is there absolutely no way that you guys can the car for this pack? If that is the case then fine. No one is going to blame you for rehoming your pets. And I think one of the things I often try and alleviate inpatient in people is the guilt over having a pet often. It's the fairest thing to do. And often you're doing over favor. Yes. It's going to be a rubbish few weeks for the dog. Don't get me wrong. No dog likes being taken away from their owners. However, long-term that dog is probably going to be a much, much happier and live a much happier and healthier life moving forward. And if you don't have the ability to provide the right level of care for that animal now, because of something freak that's happened like a divorce, fine, no one can blame you for re-homing your pet. Just do it appropriately. Don't be the person that drives to the end of the road, dumps the dog and the drives. So go to speak to the SPCA, speaks of assay, speak to whoever, whatever dog rescues there are around you or even better. If you do know if someone, if you've got friends that aren't doggie people, they understand dogs and they understand what they're buying into and they may be keen to take your dog on fine. You can do that, but you have to be careful and only my idea will shed some lights on this in a minute is if that was the instance and you were rehoming your dog to a friend, say for example, how much do you think going to see the dog? How do you have to cut ties? Or do you actually then can you visit? Because I know, I mean, that would kill me, honestly, if I had to rehome NOLA and then I could only go and visit her like once a month, number one, it would kill me, but also I know she'd go mad every time she saw me and then probably be really upset when I left. So I think you've got to think about those instances, but there are some really great people out there that do take these, these, these pats on, I can be there to help any pet. Absolutely. I mean, this is essentially pets are a complete luxury. We are so lucky to be able to have pets. And sometimes we really take that for granted. And I would absolutely employ anyone that cannot provide the right level of care or will not be able to provide the right level of care for a pet, whether it's a bird, whether it's a hamster, whether it's a Guinea pig, whether it's a dog, whether it's a horse, find someone or a charity or a rehoming census to be able to provide that level of care, because it is not fair for you to try and muddle along. And because you have not got the ability to the pet suffers and I cannot stress that enough
Speaker 2:To add on what were we saying? I think what I often say to people is stuck. Make sure your pet is a good, happy pet. You know, I mean, you should do that anywhere. But we always said with my partner that if God forbid we had an accident or something that is, we know that Bernard would fit in quite a few homes, buy homes. I mean, friends, you know, like rubs parents, protect moan, and like, you know, and people like our dog and they would be like, oh, you know, they're dead. What a great opportunity to get him. Uh, but you know, and I think just do they mind just to make sure, sorry, that's very dark, but just make sure that you have that at the back of your head. It's like if something was to happen to your dog, oh, I, I work from home. My dog has separation problems, but I don't care because I would always be with my dog. Well, until when, when you're going to start going, if you develop your husband and you have to go back to work, then what happens to that dog eight years old and has not been a surveyor. So really try to think of the worst that could happen and make sure your dog is ready for this. The other thing I will also pick up on is the good thing about choosing a charity to rehome your dog is the charity would make sure that the people taking on your dog are sort of, you know, checked home, checked and so on. And they okay. Which perhaps with friends you don't necessarily can do so a friend could be very keen to have the dog and be great, by the way, I've got a lot of clients who have picked up, especially in the last year, actually we've picked up dogs from France, we're doing an amazing job and who will be brilliant humans forever. But I think it's wise to just also just think like professional, just check. What does you know, that they're aware of financially, how much it's going to cost the vet bills, the food, the care, the, the doggy daycare, the dog, walkers, all the, you know, all of those things that can actually really just become quite expensive and depending on the breed as well, you know, you might have a French bulldog. That's going to be perhaps not treatment to start with, but could be comfort expensive on. So I think just making sure that if you're going to be using friends, think about it that way, just really just warn them, paint the worst picture rather than sort of saying my dog is actually a horrendous, he's going to wake you up at five o'clock in the morning to go on walks is going to cost you a fortune at the vet. He farts, whatever it is you just wants to make sure you paint the worst picture because I think that's important. And finally, there are wonderful rescue center who when they can we'll look after your dog for a while. So they'll have first. So for example, I know make you, does that make, you has done this for a major charity in west London, Northwest London. And they've done a lot of that for people who, for older people who have to go into hospitals for awhile. And the only reason they wouldn't get the care that they need is because they're worried about who's going to look after the dub. So they would have the dog wouldn't go into a shelter. They will go into a foster home, someone that been checked by the charity that have looked after dogs before and who would look up to the drug for two weeks, a month, three months, six months, they've done it for people who also are going through rehabilitation like of drugs and things that is when she tried to get clean. And we would look after sometimes Doug's of, you know, people have been in the street for you for, for months and years. So would they do it with the family going through divorce, perhaps not, but just at the back of your mind, anyone listening to this, if you're a single mum and you actually think like probably said, I could really look after this dog, I just need to get my life sorted fast. I need to get a flat, I need to get this. Maybe that charity will be happy to just HR. Two would be happy to use one of their fosters to get your dog looked after and you're getting back. And then when everything's ready and fine, and that's,
Speaker 1:It's definitely worth asking, isn't it? Cause I didn't know that existed, but yeah. I mean, you get moments of crisis and families where you do just need a little bit of help to have the dog taken away. Forever. Just feels like an extra blow. Doesn't it? It just one of us, one final thing before we just go onto something, which is all positive about how animals can help children going through divorce. But before we do, I just want to ask about pat nups. So one of the things that we are starting at amicable is a pet nup service because we've had a lot of demand from people who don't have kids, but have animals. And they want their arrangements documenting when they split up. I don't know if you have any views or thoughts on that.
Speaker 3:So my other half, and I we've been together two and a half years and we got together last October and we, we had this conversation. You had this, I think, I think that the key is if you're in a relationship and you've got a dog, you have to know what happens. If you split it up, like you can be the couple that are going to get married and be together forever. And it might blow up. I mean, I am Convinced I'm going to end up with my girlfriend for the rest of my life, but who knows, who knows what's going to happen? So I know
Speaker 2:Next to you, it shouldn't have to blink twice
Speaker 3:Being held against my will have the conversation that the dog is mine. If, if, if we, if we break up, that's just the way it is. I'm a vet. I wanted the dog, it was my, my, my decision. And I really pushed the adoption from there. Like the best thing that's happened to us, but I know relevant to put up a fight, but I, I we've already had that conversation. We've had, we know that that is the agreement. I think the key here is yeah, absolutely. Make that decision and have that conversation because you need to have that conversation. I think it's
Speaker 1:Part of responsibility. Only
Speaker 3:If you get,
Speaker 2:If it's running outside, which you going to eat, she's your dog. You go and walk.
Speaker 3:Well, I get all the bucks whenever it's like down there, air or sticky bomb or GFI eyes or anything like that. It's always my job. So I get all the love as well.
Speaker 2:We've never talked about this. We've never talked about this. I know, I know. I know where the cash goes, but I'm not sure about the Doug, to be honest, he may be the reason we would stay together is the glue in our relationship.
Speaker 3:I like it. I like it too. There we go.
Speaker 1:Step that one then. And let's, let's talk about the positive effects that pets can have on children. And whether there's a good time to get a pet say, after a divorce. So
Speaker 2:Is there, first of all, I think I know the answer to this, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Is there a therapeutic effect that animals have on kids when they're going through a tough time? Yeah. Yes, yes. But I would say yes, but you need to be careful. You need to also make sure that this is not some sort of just like, oh, we've divorced. You know, give me a loan. Yeah. The guilt purchase because it is a 10, 15 years job. It is a lot of work that guilt purchase is going to put on your floor, eat your shoes. If you're not careful, they shouldn't. But you know, it's going to be a very expensive present, not just that. And, and so I think a lot of people get dogs for their children to try to get them to understand what's the word to take charge and to take responsibility, to understand responsibility that doesn't work, do not get a dog for your child to teach them responsibilities. Children have so much things to do this day, their, their workload at school, that expectation of things that they have to do is huge. And they'll end up doing the homework. Want to have time for the, no, no parents have said stop doing your homework, go into the dog for a walk. That's not something that a parent would say. And so therefore parents would end up perhaps with some resentment taking the dogs out and it ended up being the parents doing it. So I think first of all, if you really want a good relationship between the dog and child and some children may hate me for this, but seven years of age, I think wait until your child, I did wait until the youngest is seven years old because that's going to make this. It can be done younger, of course, lots of concentrate with, with much younger children. But I tend to feel that for when you're seven, the age of reason we call it an impact in France, it's easier to understand, you know, consequences and so on. So I think from the age of seven, it's easier for children to train dogs. I see younger children do it, but they tend to be a rarity and be very careful that present is not poison at the end, choose the right breed. And yes, emotionally, it will always be great for, you know, to have a dog is a non-judgemental being that loves you unconditionally, but they can also play by and poop and live hair everywhere. And bear that in mind.
Speaker 1:Presumably Roy, that's kind of a spectrum then is there as well, where you might not start with a dog. There might be other pets. You can give comfort and support during that tricky time that live a lot shorter lifespans and, um, might need a lot less care than perhaps a dog.
Speaker 3:I don't want to underestimate how much cat these animals do take. I mean, I think the most underestimated animal is rabbit. It's a scene senior, these really easy entry level pets. And honestly, I think the hardest to the, the dogs, they are, they are so particular and people, so many people get it wrong, but something like 95% of the issues that we see in the vet clinic with rabbits have a cost of the owners. It's just goes to show how many people get it wrong and how many people don't know how to look after rabbits? The biggest welfare crises in animals is people keeping bunnies on their own. They're inherently sociable creatures and they need to be in pairs. They, they, they, they, they, they, they bought and you can keep them on their own and they get depressed. And I digress, I think yes, there is a spectrum and yes, you can sounds awful. You can use an animal as an, as an emotional crutch almost, but I would always ask the question, whether that's the right thing for the animal and or the child. I think you have a stable environment for an animal to come into. I don't use an animal as a pacifier. I don't think you can use animals are fixed. So for me, I would, I love the idea and I do absolutely. I think dogs are amazing. I think cats are amazing. They're there they're effects on our emotions and our anxieties and our mental health is second to none. There will never be therapies that we do as humans that are as good as the animals. I I'm a firm believer in that, but bringing an animal, it's not their choice to be that emotional crutch. It's not that their choice to be that, that thing that helps. So bringing them into that situation, you've just got to think about, and actually I'm just going to highlight what his point that I was four when I got my first dog, but yeah, But I also agree that you should never, ever, ever, ever buy your child a dog because they want a dog. You don't buy yourself a dog. That's going to benefit the family because you want a dog and your family wants a dog. Never do it just for your child because you were ended up resenting them or the pats and the child won't look after the dog. And yeah, it just, it's a recipe for disaster.
Speaker 1:I'm under so much pressure at the moment. I'm going to put that little speech you've just done on a leap and just play it to my children, constantly Experts, darlings. I could spend all afternoon talking about this stuff. It's been really insightful and really useful and helpful and a real joy as well. So thank you both very much. Indeed. I'm Ali. Where can people find out a little bit more about you
Speaker 2:Check out my website or is just duck trainer that could at UK. I also have a podcast. We talk about all things, Doug, and it's called a dog's best friends. We talk about dog training, dog related matters, dog love in general. So it's the dog's best friend on all platforms.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. Thank you. And Rory, what about you? Where can we find out more about what you're up to
Speaker 3:My website, roy.com on Instagram, Roy, that all social handles Roy, the vet. And if you fancy a funny and slightly emotional read, I've got a book out called the secret life of a vet, which will hopefully have you laughing in stitches and then crying on the next day.
Speaker 1:It sounds brilliant. I should put club tonight as well. So I showed alert if it's my choice. There we go. Job done. Thank you. And of course you can find me on Twitter. I'm at Kate underscore daily. You can hear more about the new podcast episodes by following at divorce underscore podcast. And of course you can subscribe to more of these episodes on the divorce podcast.com. Thank you both very much for your time today and thank you everyone for listening.