Divorcing dads: why separation hits men hard - and how to help

Divorce can hit men hard – and many dads withdraw just when they need people most. For divorcing dads, that isolation isn't only painful – it can be dangerous.

Kate is joined by psychologist Dr Eran Magen, founder of Divorcing Dads, to explore why men are so much more at risk during separation – and the simple things that help them through it.

We talk about:

• Why divorced dads face a much higher suicide risk
• The particular challenges separated dads face, and the part society still plays in making them harder
• How a strong support network protects men's mental health
• A simple way to tell friends and family what's going on - and ask for what you need

This episode is for any dad going through separation – and for anyone who wants to better support the men they care about.

Trigger warning: this episode talks about poor mental health and suicide. If you're affected by anything discussed, you can call Samaritans free on 116 123, or text SHOUT to 85258.

Meet Eran Magen

Dr. Eran Magen earned his M.A. in education and Ph.D. in psychology from Stanford University and completed post-doctoral training in child psychology and population health. He is currently an assistant clinical professor at the Yale School of Medicine Department of Psychiatry. Eran is the founder of Divorcing Dads and Parenting For Humans, both of which support parents in building strong, collaborative and joyful relationships with their children. He is also the founder of EarlyAlert, which provides early suicide prevention support for students and veterans.

You can listen to Eran on the Divorcing Dads podcast and get in touch with him on LinkedIn.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Men, again, on average, kind of prototypically tend to keep the cards close to the chest, and many people around them may not know that something is wrong. And so when it happens, now we have this update gap. It's not, oh, this next predictable thing happened. It's we're going from zero to a hundred. We're going from I'm pretending everything's fine to I'm in total crisis. And this is a big gap to bridge.

Kate Daly 0:27

Welcome to the Divorce Podcast, where we explore all aspects of ending relationships, separation, and parenting apart. If your marriage or partnership has ended, or you have friends and family who are separating, this podcast is for you. I'm Kate Daly, a relationship counsellor, divorce specialist, and co-founder of Amicable, the online legal service for separating couples. In each episode, we look at relationships and separation from different angles, including the emotional, legal, and social. I'm joined by experts and special guests who share their own unique stories, experience and tips with the goal of helping people end relationships in a kinder and better way. When a marriage ends, dads often go quiet, and that time can be dangerous. In this episode, I'm joined by psychologist Dr. Erin McGain, founder of Divorcing Dads, to talk about why men are so much more at risk during separation, how a strong support network protects us, and what we can all do to show up for a friend going to a divorce. Just a quick note before we start this episode talks about mental health and suicide. So please take care whilst you listen. If you loved this episode, then please subscribe and rate us on your preferred listening platform. Welcome, Iran.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Thank you very much.

Kate Daly 1:55

It's lovely to have you, and it you've got such an amazing background and career. I'm really excited to be having this conversation. And today's conversation is all around supporting dads and divorce and dads and how we can support dads more openly as they transition from being in a couple to being solo dads and single parents. So I'm really excited to kind of dive a bit deeper into this. But before we kind of get into the nuts and bolts, Erin, give us a little bit of your own background and experience as a separated dad.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Well, it it happened once, but once was enough. When my son was just over a year old, uh my my relationship with his mom ended. And it was a very difficult period for me. The following few years, uh, maybe two or three years, just felt like free fall. And I was very lucky to have very good friends and very good family members who were there to support me. And still, it felt like an enormous struggle. Part of how I make meaning when awful things happen to me is I try to make a playbook, right? Because it helps me solidify my learning. But then later on also it feels like, okay, at least, you know, maybe this can be less bad for the next person coming down the same path. And so that's that's what I did. I just started doing a whole bunch of research and then uh paying attention to what worked and what didn't for me as well. Um, and out of that, started working with other people having similar experiences and just developing resources to help make sure that people are okay because the sense of the free fall is very real during that separation and then the kind of recuperation period. My son is eight, almost and a half now. He's doing great. You know, we have an excellent relationship, we have shared custody. So he's with me half the time. We live, we live nearby, uh, his mom and I. The co-parenting is is, I would say, functional, uh, certainly functional as far as our son is concerned, but could have gone much worse, like at multiple points in the way, right? It was a challenge to get to this point. And between having had this experience myself, between the work that I've been doing on parenting, which I've done even before having had him, I love parenting and everything about it. And I think it's bar non-the most important relationship that we have in our lives, our relationship with our parents, and if we have kids, our relationship with our kids. And between the other work that I do on suicide prevention and, you know, the extreme uh suicide risk that comes along with being a divorced dad, uh, it just felt like a very natural place for me to dive in and continue doing this work, which I just find so satisfying and so gratifying.

Kate Daly 4:44

Well, there's lots of things to unpack there. I mean, one of the first things that strikes me is that you mentioned two things that seem important when anyone is going through a divorce. You mentioned a strong friend network and also your family. Speak a little bit about how those things helped you because sometimes sometimes family can be a hindrance as well as a help. But it sounds like in your case it was a real support. So tell me a little bit about that. What did you get from friends and family that helped you?

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Well, I I don't even know that I would separate the two so much. I mean, you pick the people that are helpful for you, right? Uh, you have family members that are very difficult and non-supportive, then maybe they're not the right person to be around when you're going through a really difficult period. But for me, in both cases, it was about having people who were willing to provide support, essentially around the clock if I needed it, right? Somebody who to tell me explicitly, look, if you know you're feeling horrible and it's 2 a.m., give me a call, it's fine. I'm around, you know, we can talk or spend time for as long as you want or whatever it is. And just having either uh uh comforting, positive messages to provide or actual wisdom and some guidance along this path and how to how to navigate all of these challenges. The hardest thing, I think, in general, for a lot of people I've spoken with, is just to admit that this is happening and then reach out, tell people who may not know that this is happening, endure this initial shock with them. And there are lots of different ways that I've since discovered of doing it that make it much easier. But that moment of reaching out, saying things are really hard and needing support is the biggest challenge. And once you get over that hurdle, you quickly find out who are people that you can rely on and connect and who will stay connected to you. And for me, I was leaning on them a lot, like really daily, kind of either heavy or light, either despairing or distracting conversations. But I I needed a lot of support and a lot of connection during the the initial time.

Kate Daly 6:53

And I wonder if there's kind of like a cultural difference as well. I mean, there's a lot said about the Americans and the English. We share the language, but do we really share the culture? It feels I can just imagine kind of men in this country feeling that that would be a massive deal to reach out and and tell somebody you're getting divorced or you're separating and to actually ask for help. That feels like that's quite a big step. And you mentioned there, you know, you found ways of making that easier. Tell us some of the ways to make it easier. Because I think a lot of people will struggle with that first step. And you're right, I get that once you ask, it becomes easier. But that first step is such a high bar sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Yeah. I mean, I'm sure there are lots of interesting cultural differences between any, any, pick, pick any two countries in the world. But I think that men in many places struggle to reach out and ask for support or even say that things are difficult. I don't know that I don't know that that's the first thing I would identify as a big cultural difference. You know, preparing in advance is the best thing to do. And I think this is one of the really major differences between how, between the the, let's call it the average or prototypical experience of a woman preparing for and going through divorce and the experience of a man preparing for or going through a divorce. Women tend to have more friends, more confidants. And as a result, the entire network is more up to date at any given moment. And when a separation or a divorce comes, the system is kind of activated already. It's prepared. This is happening. There are people holding the, you know, the trampoline already there. And having sense of what's happening. Whereas men, again, on average, kind of prototypically tend to keep the cards close to the chest, and many people around them may not know that something is wrong. And so when it happens, now we have this update gap. It's not, oh, this next predictable thing happened. It's we're going from zero to a hundred. We're going from I'm pretending everything's fine to I'm in total crisis. And this is a big gap to bridge psychologically, uh, and to be willing to go to someone and say, Oh, remember last week you asked me how I'm doing, and I said, great. Actually, not. It's been horrible for two years, and everything is terrible, and now it's fine. Let this is a very, very hard gap to bridge. And so one thing to do, of course, is to yes, keep friends updated on what's happening before it's a crisis, right? And have honest, close sharing, vulnerable conversations with friends and and family members on a regular basis, which is hard for some people to do, but probably a good habit to adopt. I would say do that regardless of what's happening in your relationship. Things are going well, things are not going well, you're headed for a separation or divorce, or you're not. You know, just talk, talk to people, have close relationships, have close friendships. I think that's the the best way of preventing this uh this information gap that needs to be bridged later on. And then once you're actually in the moment, whether or not there's a big information gap to bridge or not, one thing that works really well is having writing an email, a literal email, saying what's happening, and then saying what you need, and then sending it out to the people that you want to send it out to, because for a lot of people, the idea of like sitting down, having this conversation can be very daunting. And then you're looking for the words, and sometimes people interject, and you know, then they start attacking your ex and you end up defending your ex, or they start defending your ex and you end up attacking your like it's all very confusing when it's happening in real time. So if you don't feel like you're in the right kind of headspace to to manage that interaction, one thing to do is just prepare a letter and send it out to the people that are important that you want to make sure they know. And it's I mentioned before, just having the last section of the letter be what you want, what you need, because that's helpful too. Sometimes you you actually don't want to talk about it right now, although I I think it's a good idea to talk about it right now. But maybe you're you're not in the mind space to do that. Or maybe you say, I'll reach out when I'm ready to talk about it, but I don't want you to know this is happening because you're important. Or maybe you say, When we meet, it's okay to talk about this, right? Okay to ask me about this. Or I would love to hear from you, but I feel awkward kind of calling you and dumping on you. But I I would really love it if you called me sometime and checked in. It's just very hard for me to initiate this. Like, be as honest as you can be in terms of what works and what doesn't work for you and the answer. And that turns out to be I've seen that repeatedly, be a very, very uh effective way of notifying people in your life instead of having 20 different shocking conversations, right? Send a single shocking email, but then at least you can start the conversation from the middle.

Kate Daly 11:50

It's so interesting because it it's a a a simple technique, and yet one that we, you know, just I don't know very many people that have ever done that kind of technique. But it it strikes me that it might be hard for people if you if you've not grown up in that sort of emotional space where you're used to having a series of close friends so you can articulate your wants and needs, and maybe that's part of the reason why your relationship is breaking down as well. How do you know what you want and what you need? What do you put in the last section of that letter? Because it strikes me that that's quite a hard, it feels very rational when we're talking about it in the sort of cold light of day. But in the middle of a crisis, how do you know what you need? Because you sort of don't know what you don't know. And so where do you go for a bit of inspiration on what might be helpful and what you might need?

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Honestly, I wouldn't overthink it. If you don't know, then just don't write that section. It doesn't matter. They're your friends, you know, you'll talk about it, you'll figure it out. The most important thing is to notify people, just to activate your network, right? For people to know what's happening. It doesn't have to be, you know, a 650-page masterpiece. Like you can just write two sentences and say, I just found out, or I just asked for a divorce, or what whatever is happening. Maybe describe your experience in it. I'm not sure how I'm feeling about it as a legitimate thing to write, or this is really hard for me, as you might imagine, uh, or I'm very confused about all this. That's a fine letter. If you write, I just found out, you know, my wife just asked me for divorce um, you know, a few days ago, and I'm still processing what's happening, but this feels really big. Uh, and I just wanted you to know. Signature. Like, fair enough, right? A little more maybe helpful, maybe not, right? But even that, now you're gonna got you're gonna start getting some phone calls or texts or visits or or what have you. Just activate the network. Don't don't overthink it.

Kate Daly 13:52

And from a psychological perspective, what does activating your network do for you? What's happening that's making it as supportive and it that's protective about activating your network, what's actually happening in the brain?

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Social support is so interesting. You know, I I I started learning about it when I was in grad school and then kept kept diving in because eventually what I got very interested in was how how people support each other in the real world, just day-to-day. Like what works and what doesn't work and what matters. So there are different types of social support, different ways that people can support each other. There's uh like utilitarian things like helping you move, you know, and there's information support, like telling you where's the best place to, you know, get French fries or to make new friends or whatever. And then there's emotional support, which is my particular area of interest. And within social and specifically emotional support, there are two main mechanisms that make life better. One is when something bad happens, there's someone you can connect with that helps guide or comfort you. So that when something actually bad happens, it makes the bad less bad. The other way that it works is that when you know that there are people who could help you if something bad happens, you become less stressed when bad things happen. Because you're aware that you have resources to handle. And that second one is just as important as the first one because you're walking around less chronically stressed. Because this horrible thing happened, and you're like, oh, I'm gonna go talk to my friend about this and feel better later on. Like I'm in a tizzy now, but later on it'll be better when I connect with people who love me and who I love also. Or you say, Oh my god, this thing is so confusing that it's happening, but you know, I'll talk about it with a couple of my friends and I'll have more clarity tomorrow, whatever. And already you're less stressed. So activating the network and having people that you trust tell you that they're available and want to support you is so important in terms of just reducing the ambient stress that we're experiencing. And then, of course, as we connect with the people, all the good things happen. We do gain clarity, we do strengthen the relationship with these other people, which is really important, right? In the process of them supporting us. We do get distracted from the things that are stressful for us when we spend time with other people. That's also important, right? You don't have to constantly be talking about the worst things in your life when you're hanging out with a good friend. You can also just hang out and have fun, and that's also really important. So you ask specifically about the brain. And I mean, I can go, you know, I can I can increase the nerd level to seven if you want and talk more mechanistically. But kind of big picture, this is how how social support works and and the way that it manifests in this kind of context.

Kate Daly 16:50

I think that's so interesting because you can start to see then when you explain it in that way, you can start to see how isolation becomes a real risk factor when you know bad things happen to people. And if you haven't got that ability to connect with the network, how very quickly you become isolated and how that becomes a compounding element. So it's not just the isolation of in and of itself, it's that sort of feeling of compounding that's happening where your stress levels are just going up and up and up without any way of releasing or bringing them back down even momentarily, because you haven't got the connection, you haven't got the distraction, you haven't got that secondary feeling of just knowing you've got someone to speak to and therefore your level's coming down anyway. How does that manifest ultimately? I mean, you talked about your work in suicide prevention earlier. I I guess that's the most extreme element of where this leads.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

Yeah. I mean, for suicide to happen, a lot of things need to go wrong. And each of those things is also if you improve any of those things, the risk of suicide drops significantly, right? Like you need to have all these faucets open in a row. And so if you even start dialing back one of these faucets, then the risk goes down a lot. So there's a theory of suicide called tellingly the three-step theory of suicide. And according to it, the risk of suicide goes precipitously up when three conditions are met. One, I'm in a lot of pain. Two, I feel hopeless about the pain ever stopping. And three, I am disconnected from anything that gives me meaning or comfort. And you can see how each of these three is also a potential point of intervention, changing the situation. When people are in a lot of pain, psychically or or physically, it it can be hard to take away the pain. If it's ongoing kind of chronic pain, uh, it can be hard to take away the pain. But you can relieve it momentarily, right? You can take some pain medication, or you can go on a hike with a friend, or you can, you know, depending on the kind of pain, you can provide some relief. But if somebody's really like in anguish and mourning and shock, you may not be able to do a lot for the pain. You could do some. The hopelessness about the future is a potential point for intervention, but even then, uh, you know, it's it's limited. I mean, of course, if you're in the you're at the bottom of the well, somebody can tell you that you're gonna get out one day, but whether or not you're able to hear it may be different. And the part about the connectedness, I think is the easiest point of intervention, the easiest thing that we can provide to somebody experiencing a lot of pain and a lot of despair, right? We can just be there with them. And that by itself makes an enormous difference. Uh, I mean, specifically technically with respect to suicide risk, right? Just staying connected, just having someone who that person can say, oh, I'm not all alone. Somebody does care. So for me, these three factors really provide sort of a recipe regarding how to support somebody going through something extreme.

Kate Daly 20:20

What's the link then between divorce and suicide in men? Is there a link? So uh are you more likely to be at risk of suicide if you are going through a divorce or a separation? Is it is it a predictive factor of suicide or is it not?

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Yeah. So divorced men have double the suicide risk of any other relationship category of men. Whereas going through a divorce or separation does not change the suicide risk for women. You know, we can we can think through why, but if I had to make a guess, I haven't seen research to support this directly, so I'm guessing now, but if I had to make a guess, I would say it's because women tend to have stronger support networks.

Kate Daly 21:01

So it's the connectiveness. So if you have got a male friend going through a divorce or separation, whether they've written you a letter or not, the key takeaway here is to reach out and to speak and to connect with them.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Exactly right. Yeah, that's the first thing to do. And the thing that matters most is to be present.

Kate Daly 21:19

And are are we any good at doing that then? Or do like do people, when you went through yours, do people reach out to you? Or did you have to ask for help? Because that's a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

That's a very insightful question. So, you know, many of us know people who've gone through really terrible things. And terrible things can be lots of stuff, right? Or even stressful things. Like not just terrible, right? Like having a childborn is extremely stressful in all kinds of ways, even though it's wonderful usually. Switching jobs, moving homes, having a loved one die, going through divorce, getting a cancer date.

Kate Daly 21:58

Losing a job, yeah. All of those things.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

No, there's there's so many like different bad things that can happen in this world, and also very many good things, I mean, to be fair, but there's so many bad things that can happen. And typically what happens is that people, even close, well-meaning people, will kind of swoop in and provide a fair bit of support for a few weeks and then fade away. And the reason that we fade away is that we're busy and it looks like the other person is fine. And so we we attend away. And I think it's it's natural, it's reasonable that this happens. I do think that if if we're the person who is supporting someone, I think it's great if we can be the person that doesn't fade away. And figuring out some kind of a regular cadence for us to check in with the other person, whatever works for you. You know, maybe it's a text in the morning, maybe it's a call on Wednesday afternoon, whatever it is, right? But to be the person that that stays there, because these things take months. I mean, definitely separation and divorce, right? Like you switch a job, you switch a job, and there's some time to get into it, and it takes, I don't know what, a year to like feel like you're now plugged into your new job. Fine. Divorce can take literally years.

Kate Daly 23:13

Yeah. Tell me about it.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

And at any time during those years, and possibly majority of times during those years, things can be very, very hard.

unknown 23:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

And of course, from the inside, as a person going through this, you don't want to be burdening your friends and you're worried that you know they don't want to hear about it anymore and so on. And so if you can be the person in the outside who repeatedly and consistently stays connected, shows interest, invites the person to update you about whatever is going on, that that makes an enormous difference because a lot of people are going to be there the first two weeks. And then it's cricket. So if you're the supporting person, don't be part of the cricket band. If you are the person going through it, and this is where I think your question was so important and so insightful, there really is an element of being able to reach out to people and connect when you need to and be the one initiating. And it can feel imbalanced and it's difficult. And again, my hope is that, you know, if if if I'm talking both to the person going through it and to the person supporting, my hope is that the person supporting can, when receiving these calls, can say something like, Oh, I'm so glad you called. I'm sorry I wasn't in touch, but I was thinking about you the whole time. I'm really glad to hear from you. And let's set a time to meet, and let's do the thing and right and make it clear that this is okay. If you are the person going through it, it's so important to connect to some kind of support with some regularity. And if you're worried that you're burdening your friends, ask them. And if they tell you that it's fine, but you get the sense that it's not, and it gets to a point where you're not comfortable, then find somebody else to talk to. Spread the love. You know, create, you know, talk to this person this week and the next person the other week, if weekly is good for you, or find completely different sources of support, right? Find a support group, work with your therapist, whatever it works, make new friends, which is hard. But do what you need in order to connect with people. Because even though connecting with people is ideally fun and inherently meaningful, there are times when it makes sense to think about it as medically necessary.

Kate Daly 25:27

Yeah. To put it in a different way, rather than it just being something nice to do, but something that is part of your survival and well-being.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

This is probably lowering your stress levels in a way that makes it easier for you to communicate with your ex co-parent more effectively, you're probably going to be a better parent as a result. Like you're not doing this just for you. This is one of the silver lights as far as messaging for people going through divorce and separation, is that now we can loop in a very different motivation for good self-care, which is taking care of the kids. Because if you neglect yourself, you are neglecting your child. There's it's not sustainable to try to parent well without taking good care of yourself. Taking care of yourself is not selfish. Taking care of yourself is making sure that your battery is charged enough to be a good parent because it takes a very charged battery to be a good parent consistently, especially in the face of a lot of stress and mayhem and conflict that may or may not be lurking in the background. So there's now a deeper meaning and deeper rationale for doing good self-care. You're doing self-care to take good care of your kids.

Kate Daly 26:40

And let's talk a little bit about what it means to be a parent, then a separated parent, and what was specifically a separated dad. Do you think there are some specific challenges that relate to dads rather than generally more as parents? Or has the world moved on? And is this now about parenting and gender doesn't come into it?

SPEAKER_01 27:01

I don't know that there's a universal worldwide answer to this. My bet would be that the world as a whole has not moved on, and that a lot of people make assumptions about who does what. Having said this, what we know is true is that either being a single parent comes really easily to you or it doesn't. For many men, it doesn't. My impression is that for many women, it doesn't also, but women are up for the challenge, for lack of a better word, like just kind of tend to accept that this is something that needs to be learned and done, and then we'll learn and do it. And often I think because of the way society is still working, they may come with anywhere from a significant to a slight advantage in terms of kind of background knowledge and skills. But even if not, you know, I very often see women becoming single parents and just saying, well, I'm gonna figure out how to do this. Whereas very often men get to the point of becoming single parents and saying, Well, I just don't know how to do this, and they'll kind of are okay with it. But many do rise up to the challenge as well, men, you know, who want to be good single parents. And that that takes learning. And we're still at a point where many of the men who are now becoming single parents grew up at a time when they were less exposed and less sort of trained in the skills that make it easier to be a single parent. So it takes, it takes learning. And for this, there's community again. And I think there's usually a parenting group somewhere near you, formal or informal. Many of your friends have kids and so on. Just talking, just becoming more humble about it and more open to the difficulties and saying, I can't figure out snacks for my kid for school. Like, what did I don't want to send them with like Doritos every day? Like, what are we? How do you make snacks every how do you make time for this in the morning? Like, just ask all the dog questions and then learn. It's okay. I think as far as like out in the world and in society, I don't think, at least here, at least, you know, the people that I speak with and the realities that I'm exposed to, I don't think anybody will perceive single dads as being weird for being parents uh or anything like that, or expect there to be somebody else involved. I think everybody's accepting of fathers uh as being single parents. I haven't that I haven't seen that be a particular issue.

Kate Daly 29:24

I just guess it's just from a there are different levels of acceptance of what a single parent looks like. And I think, you know, traditionally it's been single mums in the UK who've borne a lot of stigma. Um but now we see single dads and dads taking a much more active role in the care of their children right from the get-go. So that necessarily means when you transition through a divorce, dads have already got skills because they've been looking after their kids. But like you say, that's quite a recent thing. There are many people, you know, the average age of getting divorced sort of in this country is mid-40s. So there we're still just on the cusp of those dads having not had it tends to be the sort of 30-something dads who've been more involved. So we're still at the tail end of a sort of a social dynamic playing out where dads haven't been involved and therefore it is a big change. Suddenly, if you're sharing the care of your kids like you are, to suddenly then have to pick it all up when you haven't necessarily played that role from day one. And I think sometimes that's been used to keep dads out, and it's a good thing now that that whole kind of scenario is changing so that there's an understanding that kids benefit in different ways from the different parents that they have. So it's all to applaud that, but we're we've still sort of got so we're having a conversation where in sort of normal life now, it's perfectly societally accepted and normal for dads to take roles with their kids, but the actual people who are getting divorced aren't quite that generation yet. So we've still got some hangover, so we've still got a little bit of a traditional scenario set up where mums have taken more sort of control of the household stuff. So it's a weird dynamic that we're navigating. On the one hand, intellectually, we know people are much more inclusive and that roles are shared, but in the actual reality of people coming out with skills right here, right now, sometimes it's not quite caught up with the way that society has moved. So I was just sort of teasing out what does that look like and feel like in reality as a dad? You know, I mean, maybe you were different, maybe you were further ahead in America than we are here. Maybe you'd had an active role in your child's life from, you know, day one, but lots of parents haven't and find it more difficult. And if you're the dad who turns up picking up or dropping off your kid, and it's a whole bunch of mums stood outside the court school gate. That's pretty intimidating. You know, going up to that group of parents and saying, what are we packing for snacks these days? I admire the man who's brave enough to do that. That's pretty hardcore. So it does that still exist, or is that something that's kind of not really relevant anymore? Am I just old-fashioned in my view?

SPEAKER_01 32:12

I think you are extremely well informed. And although we don't know each other well, I'm gonna guess that old-fashioned is not the first word that comes to mind for most people when describing you. You know, when my son's mom and I separated for a long time, I thought about her as a single parent and was mindful of the challenges that she has as a single parent. And I completely forgot that I'm also a single parent. You know, giving myself the label single parent seemed like somehow glorifying my position or claiming some kind of special, you know, hardship. And it just didn't occur to me that but my son is with me half of his life. You know, I'm also and so why why was I not comfortable claiming that title? And I think there was a gender dynamic happening there inside me, right? She never said anything like you're not a single parent or whatever. This was all internal. And I think that's some of the that's an example of just how subtle it can be. It just didn't occur to me to apply this label. So that's one example. I think the the man that goes up and says, help me out with some snack ideas. I think that man is has a very high likelihood of ending up with a couple of dates as a result of that conversation. You know, I think this is a man who's committed and interested and humble and open, wanting to take care and not knowing how and be like, who doesn't want to help, you know, clueless single dad?

Kate Daly 33:42

See, that's the all the ultimate female rescue fantasy, then, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 33:46

Yeah, rescue. That part of the dynamic, I think as soon as you get over the discomfort, I don't think anybody views that negatively. I do think that most of the challenges internal when we, I say we as men, implicitly and maybe unthinkingly accept some things as not our job, right? Oh, she'll figure out healthcare, you know. And it's not even a conscious thought, like I said, right? It's just like, well, this is gonna get taken care of, right? The socks are gonna disappear from the floor. It's kind of a version of that. This is gonna get taken care of. And uh nice way to battle that internal issue is to pretend that the other parent doesn't exist or that the other parent will do nothing and just be very explicit about it. I'm not saying in reality, push the other parent away or anything, right? But just what happens if you were this the only responsible party here? You would figure it out. Right? So there's some kind of comfort with offloading responsibility and just not looking at it and just kind of assuming it's gonna take and get taken care of. And if we if we remove this blinder, if we in fact maybe cover the other person and say, no, if it's just me, what do I do? Um, I think that's we we suddenly discover that these things are extremely figure outable, right? People will say, like, oh, I don't know how to arrange a play date. Yes, you do. You know, this is not rocket science. You pick up the phone or text or whatever. Like, this is all figure outable, but it's when we when we choose not to approach it that we lose our power. We we we give away our our competence, right? It's not taken from us. And I think you raised that point really quickly before and kind of moved right past it, but it's a very important point that especially if there are custody disputes, implicit or explicit, this becomes a very important issue because somebody at some point is gonna make a list and say, okay, who's taking care of dental, who's taking care of health, who's buying clothes, who's preparing meals, you know, who's communicating with the school, who's signing him up to participate in plays, who's taking care. And if it's just not me, not me, not me, not me, you're not in a great position. Leave alone the fact that you're not that involved in your kid's life, you're not in a great position if that kind of a thing ever comes up. So that's that's another reason, yet another reason to be involved. And of course, separate. There's the issue of just splitting the load in a fair and reasonable way. And maybe, you know, when when you were living together, you had some sort of an agreement, implicit or explicit, that worked or didn't work about who does what in the family. But that agreement is probably going to change if you're separated or divorced now. But it's good to have that agreement. Like maybe, maybe you do have an agreement that your ex takes care of extracurriculars and you take care of medical or vice versa. Or whatever, like it's okay to have that, right? But to assume that the other person will pick up the slack is a recipe for disasters, I think, on many levels. And I just want to say, for the sake of fairness, I have come across actually a surprising number of cases for me where in the couple before the separation, both people, both parents were working, and the father carried a lion's share of doing the own logistical stuff. And then they had the reverse problem, actually, after separating to what we've been talking about, right? Where it was the mom trying to figure out how to do these things with the uh work that she was doing on top of it and so on. Like these things, I I don't want to only present it, you know, in this very stereotypical way. The stereotypes exist for a reason. I think historically they were very pronounced. I think the the percentages are changing.

Kate Daly 37:36

Yeah, massively. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

I think these these issues still exist, but I just don't want to, you know, paint a false picture.

Kate Daly 37:43

Now, in just a moment, Iran, I'm going to ask you to share some top tips for divorced dads. But just before we do, if this episode has given you a bit of clarity or some comfort or just a tip that's made things feel a little bit more manageable, please make sure to follow the divorce podcast on your favorite podcast app. Each week we're here with expert advice and real support to help you through your separation one step at a time. So, Yoran, what are some final tips then? So, if there are a couple of things you want every dad listening to take away from this episode, what would you say?

SPEAKER_01 38:20

There are a lot of things that can make divorce or separation easier and safer. I would say the two most important things are number one, reach out for support, connect with support, good support that makes you feel better and more hopeful. This can be friends, this can be family, this can be your faith community, your faith leader, this can be a therapist, this can be a support group. But connect with support, it's very, very important not to do it alone. The second thing that is very important is to get decent sleep. Sleep is so important. You know, some days I wake up and the world is lovely and everybody's nice and reasonable. And some days I wake up and the world is a terrible, dark place, everybody's annoying. And the only difference in the world between those two days is how much sleep I've had. Sleep is a very strong predictor of the quality of decisions that we make, of our mood during the day. It's so important. And so just getting some kind of a handle on our sleep and not letting it spiral totally out of control is is also very important. These would be my top two tips. Connect with support. First and foremost, make sure you're connected with support. Secondly, get good sleep. And I would say maybe on top of all of that, just kind of wrapped around never doubt that your presence in your kids' life is beneficial and important. Resist the urge to drop it and walk away, or to figure out whether or not you should even be alive. Like that, that's just not a helpful line of thinking. It will hurt your kids if you disappear in in any way, in any version. It will hurt your kids if you are not in the picture. If there are things you need to improve about yourself to be an even more positive parent, then work on yourself and improve those things. But disappearing will make things worse, much, much worse for us. Just always keep that in mind. If you're feeling like you're going down the wrong path, connect with support. Your friends, your family, your faith leader, your therapist, whoever, right? Call the free counseling number in your area, do a search, type in the name of your city or your country, and type in hotline and talk to somebody about this. But don't disappear from their lives. They they need you and they want you and they love you and they deserve you. Related to this, it would be the website divorcingdads.org. And there's resources there for dads around co-parenting and single parenting and you know, going through the whole process. There's a podcast also called Divorcing Dads that I do where I talk with dads going through divorce as they're going through it. And the the goal is just to help people see the arc because it's kind of a common arc, right? It starts in the pit and then it gets a little better, and then it gets more challenging, and then it gets better, and then it gets great. And at the end, people say my life is better, which is shocking to hear when you're in the middle of it, right? Because you think my life just ended. But actually, no, more or less everybody later on says my life is much better now than it was before the divorce or the separation. And just being able to hear people go that in detail and realizing, oh, they've had it really bad. Like this kind of sounds like what I'm going through. And then hear three episodes later when they're like, this is great, actually. I think is so helpful. So anyway, that that's called um divorcing dads as well. And then the rest of the work you you mentioned before, right? There's parentingforhumans.com. My my uh I mean, I'm I'm around on you know, LinkedIn and and whatever. Uh, but these are the two main websites that are relevant here parentingforhumans.com and divorcingdads.org.

Kate Daly 42:21

Brilliant. Well, we'll make sure to put those links in the show notes as well. So thank you very much for sharing those. Don't forget, folks, for separation and co-parenting support. You can visit amicable.co.uk, where you can explore our free resources or book a free advice consultation. Um, you can find me on LinkedIn as well, and you can hear about new podcast episodes by subscribing for updates and visiting thedivorsepodcast.com, or you can find us on your favourite listening platform. Finally, don't forget we'd love to know how we can help further. So please share any questions on divorce, separation, and co-parenting with us at hello at amicable.co.uk. Thanks ever so much, Erin, for sharing all of that today. It's been really insightful and lovely to talk to you. And thank you, everyone, for listening.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

Thank you so much.