You’re doing better than you think: helping children thrive through divorce

Supporting your children through separation goes so much further than one difficult conversation - but knowing how to keep showing up for them is something many parents struggle with.

Kate is joined by Hannah Strong, therapist, separated mum and founder of My Thriving Child, to explore what children really need from their parents during and after a separation. Drawing on science, psychology and her own lived experience, Hannah shares her framework for helping children not just cope - but thrive.

We talk about:

• Why it's not about getting it perfect – and the reassuring research behind that
• What's really going on in your child's brain when family life changes
• How to spot the signs your child might be struggling, even when they seem fine
• Why the first conversation about your separation is just the beginning
• The small everyday actions that help your children build security and thrive

This episode is for any parent going through separation who wants to do right by their children - whether they're at the very start of the process or years down the line.

Meet Hannah Strong

Hannah Strong is a therapist, coach and separated mum who specialises in helping parents to support their children in the best way possible through divorce - so their children do not just survive, but genuinely thrive. 

You can learn more about how Hannah can help your family on the My Thriving Child website and you can follow her on Instagram for more helpful tips. 

More divorce resources

Need expert help right now?

Book a free 15-minute consultation with an amicable expert for guidance on the legal, financial, emotional or co-parenting aspects of separation. Or explore our Separating with Children Service – a 90-minute joint session with a Co-parenting Specialist tailored to your family’s needs.

Want ongoing support through separation?

Join amicable space for bonus podcast episodes, exclusive webinars and articles on co-parenting and an interactive community where you can share questions and get expert advice from amicable specialists. Start your free trial here.

Kate’s book amicable divorce includes dedicated chapters on co-parenting, with practical guidance on supporting your children's wellbeing, talking to them in age-appropriate ways and building a cooperative co-parenting relationship that reduces conflict. Find it on Amazon today.

Want to stay organised as co-parents?

Download our free Parenting Plan template to help you and your co-parent agree on shared goals, routines and decision-making – with your children at the centre.

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Got a question for a future episode?

Share your thoughts at hello@amicable.co.uk or through direct messages on Instagram.

Sources referenced in this episode

• Tronick, E. Z., & Gianino, A. F. (1986). The Transmission of Maternal Disturbance to the Infant. In E. Z. Tronick & T. Field (Eds.), Maternal Depression and Infant Disturbance (New Directions for Child Development, No. 34, pp. 5-11). Jossey-Bass.
• Amato, P. R., Loomis, L. S., & Booth, A. (1995). Parental Divorce, Marital Conflict, and Offspring Well-Being During Early Adulthood. Social Forces, 73(3), 895-915.
• Kelly, J. B., & Emery, R. E. (2003). Children's Adjustment Following Divorce: Risk and Resilience Perspectives. Family Relations, 52(4), 352-362.
• Masten, A. S. (2001). Ordinary Magic: Resilience Processes in Development. American Psychologist, 56(3), 227–238.
• Luthar, S. S., Cicchetti, D., & Becker, B. (2000). The Construct of Resilience: A Critical Evaluation and Guidelines for Future Work. Child Development, 71(3), 543–562.
• Rutter, M. (2012). Resilience as a Dynamic Concept. Development and Psychopathology, 24(2), 335–344.
• Masten, A. S., & Reed, M.-G. J. (2002). Resilience in Development. In C. R. Snyder & S. J. Lopez (Eds.), Handbook of Positive Psychology (pp. 74–88). Oxford University Press.
• Werner, E. E., & Smith, R. S. (1992). Overcoming the Odds: High Risk Children from Birth to Adulthood. Cornell University Press.
• Bowlby, J. (1969/1982). Attachment and Loss. Vol. 1: Attachment.
• Ainsworth, M. D. S., Blehar, M. C., Waters, E., & Wall, S. (1978). Patterns of Attachment.
• Sroufe, L. A., Egeland, B., Carlson, E., & Collins, W. A. (2005). The Development of the Person: The Minnesota Study of Risk and Adaptation from Birth to Adulthood.
• van IJzendoorn, M. H., & Sagi-Schwartz, A. (2008). Cross-Cultural Patterns of Attachment: Universal and Contextual Dimensions. In Handbook of Attachment (2nd ed.).

#Coparenting

Transcript

Hannah Strong 0:00

It is so possible for children to thrive through divorce. Even if things are a bit tricky, it's so possible for them to thrive if they are supported to process it in the right way. Our children need us to get this right for them 30% of the time in order for them to be able to process the divorce. I love that stat. Yeah, yeah.

Kate Daly 0:20

That feels like a normal person stat. Yeah. Hope lives here, people. Hope lives here. Welcome to the divorce, where we explore all aspects of ending relationships, separation, and parenting apart. If your marriage or partnership has ended, or you have friends and family who are separating, this podcast is for you. I'm Kate Daly, a relationship counselor, divorce specialist, and co-founder of Amicable, the online legal service of separating couples. In each episode, we look at relationships and separation from different angles, including the emotional, legal, and social. I'm joined by experts and special guests who share their own unique stories, experience, and tips, with the goal of helping people end relationships in a kinder and better way. If you've ever worried your separation is affecting your children, or wondered whether you're doing enough to keep them okay, then this episode is for you. I'm joined by Hannah Strong, a therapist, separated mum, and founder of My Driving Child. And we have a really honest and reassuring conversation about just how to support your children. And not just through that first difficult conversation, but throughout their entire childhood. If you loved this episode, then please subscribe and rate us on your preferred listening platform. Welcome, Hannah. Thank you so much. Happy to be here. Oh it's lovely to see you. Thank you for joining us. I'm really interested to hear your story today of what it's like to be both professionally involved and personally involved as a separated mum. And let's start there, shall we? Tell us a little bit about your personal story and how you found it navigating that story, as I say, like as a mum and as a professional as well.

Hannah Strong 2:20

Yeah, it is still very hard, even if you're a professional. And even as a therapist, when it came to my divorce, I felt completely overwhelmed. I felt so terrified about how the divorce was going to affect the children, how I was going to make them okay throughout all of it. In fact, I'd say I was so acutely aware of how the research shows children are impacted by divorce that actually in many ways made me more fearful because I was very aware of that. And I worked with many children whose parents were going through that. So I had that acute awareness in my mind, and I really wanted to support my children. But even with all the tools of the therapist, I didn't feel fully equipped. I didn't feel like I knew how. And I really had to feel like I knew how in order to feel grounded in myself. And I was reflecting before I jumped on the podcast today about my journey. And I remember those early days of the divorce before we told the children and how scary it felt, and how scary that initial conversation can feel, how scary the road ahead and the uncertainty of all of it can feel, particularly around how the children will take it and how they'll process the divorce, and how you'll answer all the big why questions that they're going to ask, and how you'll make sure that you're composed and you're maintaining yourself and supporting them through it. And I remember one night I went into my son's room, he was sleeping because I often couldn't sleep because I felt so overwhelmed with anxiety. And I got up, went into his room, and he had his cover kind of pulled up right under his chin, and his face was shining out in the light that had these little glow lights on around his bed. And you know your children always look the sweetest when they're sleeping. And uh I was in his room and I just looked at him in that moment, and I was just so struck by his vulnerability and how reliant he was on me in making him okay in the situation. And I remember standing there in his room and just violently crying, but there was something that shifted for me in that moment. And I promised him that all of that research that links children who have divorced parents to them having lower quality of well-being was not going to be his story. And I went back to bed, but I went back to bed with a fire in my stomach. And when I woke up, literally everything changed. So I spent every child-free hour I could pulling together all of the research I could find on divorce, how it affects children, child brain development, the taxman theory, and pulled together essentially this framework that I was pretty sure in my gut, but also grounded in research, was going to look at those woos, so basically emotional, psychological woos that we know are caused in children through divorce, and was going to help them heal those. And I went on this journey with my children that really helped them to process the divorce, why it happened, how it happened, helped them understand that they are still securely attached to both their parents, which is so key in them feeling okay and them going on to have a happy childhood, but also have healthy relationships of their own in adulthood. And there's something that shifts for parents, I feel, that when you feel like you know what you're doing, you know what to do, you know when to do it, you know how to do it, you know how to answer those really difficult questions, you know what's going on in their tiny minds when they're not saying things, when they are saying things, what behavior means. That means you feel so much more grounded in yourself.

Kate Daly 6:16

I think that's such an interesting um story because I mean, I love what you say there about the difference between that standing almost like a rabbit in the headlights and being frightened, which I guess nearly every parent who's going through a divorce will have that same feeling. We know that, you know, 40% of parents report that that's their biggest anxiety when they're going through a divorce. We've done lots of research, and that's one of the stats that we've pulled out. So it's such a big burden for parents. But actually, what you've just said is so hopeful because what you're saying is it's not the divorce itself, it's the way in which you go about it. And there are things that you can do that will protect your children and not just make them okay, but will allow them to thrive. And I think if there is a hopeful message from this podcast, it has to be that. It has to be that you can do things about it. So listen on, dear listener, because there are going to be some tips later on on what sort of things you can do to help protect your children and allow them to thrive in this circumstance. I'm super interested then to unpack a bit more about your framework. So I said in the intro, it pulls, you've pulled together not just the science, but the practical experience. And you that example you've just talked about, standing in your son's room, fearful, before bed, waking up feeling, okay, I have got tools in my bag here that I can deploy and use for their benefit. Talk us through the framework you developed after that night of realization.

Hannah Strong 8:02

Really good question. I think one of the things I heard time and time again, and I do still hear time and time again, is that kids are resilient. And that really was difficult for me to hear as a therapist because if there was one thing I knew as a therapist, is that children are not resilient. The research facts that they're not resilient. They are very good at coping, but this isn't resilience. And actually, the research shows us that resilience, in fact, the coining phrase to come out of all of the resiliency research is resilience in children isn't magic, it's made. So, in other words, it isn't something that children innate you possess, it's something that we cultivate them as cultivate in them as their parents to help them through difficult situations. And that's how resilience is built. And that was a key thing for me in the framework that we put into place with the children, that actually I couldn't rely on them being resilient and then coping and them being okay. So, what are the core, I guess what we would call like wounding, like emotional wounding that is caused to a child. And one of the most foundational is to the attachment networks of the brain. So children need to securely attach to their key attachment figures. So let's say mom and dad. Um, but during divorce, they see their two key attachment figures who they believed were attached by love, become unattached, or maybe attached by the family unit if it wasn't love. And in the subconscious parts of their brain that is always scanning to see whether they are securely attached, they're asking themselves the question okay, so the love between, say, my mum and dad or my two key cat from figures can break. What's attached with me to mum? What's attached with me to dad? Oh, that's love too. So if their love can break or change, could their love for me break or change? And that is something that children often can't verbalize because it's a very subconscious worry, but it does cause a lot of anxiety. And that is one of the most fundamental things that has to be got right first in the mind of a child. So they can both cognitively understand that the type of love is different, so the mum and dad love or the mum and mom or dad and dad love is different to a child and parent love. And so them cognitively understanding that, but also us as parents being able to look out for any signs that our child might be struggling with that attachment. And so what we want is for our child to be able to come into close proximity to us, either emotionally or physically. So that could look like them asking big questions, emotionally opening up, even just sitting with us or cuddling with us. And they have the ability to separate themselves from us as their parents, and they know that they are okay when they're away from us, and they know that we are okay when we are away from them. And if they can come in and out of that emotional closeness with their parent, that's what we call secure attachment. But sometimes during divorce, because it directly disrupts the attachment networks in the brain, we can start to see one or two things playing out, and maybe both playing out in different areas. And one can be a bit of an anxious attachment where maybe the child feels like they're really clinging to one or even both parents more than they were before. And this might be because they're not sure whether they're okay or securely attached when they move away from that parent, or they're not sure whether that parent is okay when they decide to move away from them. Um, or we can see a bit more of an avoidance attachment start to play out, and that is when, say, a child might avoid certain subjects. So a parent might say, Are you okay? How you been back with, yep, I fine, oh, don't talk about it, or maybe they're avoided going to a certain parent's house, and you can see that avoidant attachment start to play out. But the amazing thing is about the neuroscience is that it is possible for children, even if they're super anxiously attacked, even if they're very avoidantly attached, to be supported to come to this place of secure attachment with both of their parents. And children only need a secure attachment with one of their parents in order for their brain to understand what secure attachment looks like, so to be wired towards secure attachment. That doesn't mean, oh, well, we'll just work on them and secure attachment with one parent. Ideally both. But even if there is a tricky dynamic, as long as they have that with one parent, the research shows us that child can be secure. So I think I'm probably getting a bit off topic here. But within the framework, I say attachment is the absolute foundational. And then from there, children's brains start to look for their need for certainty, both practicable and emotional. They look for their need for control. So they don't want to feel in control, but they want to feel a sense of control. So getting that level of control right, looking at their level of interconnectedness. So, how connected am I to other adults in my life? So when things are changing with mum and dad, or with mom and mum, or dad and dad, that actually I've got other adults that are meaningfully involved in my life where things aren't changing that provides that stability for me.

Kate Daly 13:40

So that's really interesting, isn't it? So I love the science of all of this because I think what the science does for us, because as parents going through a divorce, your overriding feeling is often guilt. And we know that people put off or stay in very unhealthy relationships for a disproportionate amount of time sometimes, because they feel the guilt of leaving and the fear of what that's going to do to their children's stability and so on. So it's a very hopeful message that you're able to give if you can say to people, well, look, it's uh okay to leave, provided you leave in the right way. And to leave in the right way, these are the things you need to start to think about. And what you were just saying then, it's really interesting because often we start with some of the practical stuff. But actually what you're saying is getting that secure attachment piece right first really is the foundation and the bedrock of then deciding where people are going to live and how much time they're gonna spend and who else is involved and all of that kind of stuff. What are some of the things that you think parents should be saying either to each other or the children to demonstrate or to encourage or to scaffold that secure attachment? What does that actually look like in practical terms, do you think, from your experience?

Hannah Strong 15:08

Really good question because sometimes you touched on making sure the divorce is left in the right way or a person leaves in the right way, that people listening might feel like, oh, well, that part's already happened, and maybe it wasn't necessarily done in the right way. And actually, if you can get it right from the start, fantastic. But if you're in a place where it has been a bit tricky, the research shows us it is so possible for children to heal and ultimately thrive from these difficult situations. But it's really about us equipping ourselves as their parent to be able to do that. And it's really twofold, especially when it comes to attachment, like you mentioned. It's attachment is the attachment between two people. So if you imagine it almost like a string, an attachment between the parent and the child, for example, is like a string. And we want to make that string as secure as possible. That string is attached to two people, meaning that there needs to be work on both sides. So it's not just about us supporting our child in the best way and making sure that they've got everything they need and trying to manage everything around them. Yes, it is about that and helping them to process those things, them having the right language and being able to spot when there are any kind of attachment questions bubbling to the surface, and you think, ah, I know what that's about. But also it's about us as their parent doing our work to notice any difficult attachment styles that are playing out for us. Perhaps we feel in ourselves very anxiously attached to our child, and we really feel like naturally, as a caring parent, we really want to look after them, we really want to make sure that they're okay. Maybe there might be something in us that actually, when they move away from us, say to the other parents' home, we might not feel okay in ourselves. And children do pick up on that. Or maybe your child is leaning in to ask big questions about the divorce or about the separation, and you don't quite know how to answer it in yourself. So you feel yourself pulling away and oh, oh, yeah, uh just mommy and daddy don't love each other anymore. But sometimes that happens. You'll know more when you're older, and you know, just kind of trying to brush it under the carpet because it feels really difficult if you haven't got processed language and feeling like you're putting it forward in a way that their little minds can understand and is age appropriate and is actually helping them to process it. So it's us as a parent noticing what we are bringing to that string and noticing what our child is bringing to that string. So a huge amount of it is awareness and having almost the education to know what we're looking out for with our child and the kind of things that they're asking that can give us little cues as to what's going on in their mind.

Kate Daly 18:11

And are there things that then to bolster that so that if we're looking at ourselves, we're looking at our child, what are the sort of key messages that make a child feel securely attached? How are we handling questions? What sort of narrative are we using in order to help them understand that we are not going anywhere, we will be with them forever, we will love them forever. Our love isn't like the love between mummy and daddy, it can't be broken. What sort of things are we saying?

Hannah Strong 18:42

So there are the things that we're saying to our child, which tends to go into this pre-frontal cortex, and that's kind of the rational stinking part of the brain, and that is really helpful. I encourage you to reassure your child that you will always be there for them, their other parent will always be there for them if that is the case, and use as much of that supportive language as possible. The difficult thing is that the attachment anxiety usually doesn't come from this rational place. Rationally, they probably know that you would never leave them. They probably know that you've been there for them every single day of their life. They rationally know this stuff, but it's coming from the subconscious parts of their brain. And this is a bit harder to talk to because the information that you're putting into this prefrontal cortex doesn't always kind of get back here. So, really, parents equipping themselves with the tools they can use to visually explain to children can really help it move from just this rational word that I'm taking on to I am now making sense of this in my mind. And a really important thing to keep in mind about children's brains is that they are essentially sense-making machines. That's what their brains are. And at all times, their brain is trying to make sense of three things: that is, themselves, others, and then the world. How does the world work? How do relationships work? And divorce affects all three of these kinds of sense-making drives that they have in their heads. And we actually have a whole very visual framework specifically to help children really deeply feel securely attached that I work through with clients, where we'll visually get them to map out all of their attachments, all of the different types of love. And this is then becomes the framework that parents can use throughout the child's lives that they will continually refer to. And so it's really about parents being equipped with key frameworks that they can then use throughout the child's life to help them make sense of all this. And if a child's brain is supported to make sense of everything in the right way, that's a child that can thrive ultimately.

Kate Daly 20:56

Yeah. And I guess, I mean, in your experience, it feels like there's probably a gap between parents wanting to do the right thing, obviously, as parents, that's naturally where you start, isn't it? And actually knowing what to do day to day. So, how do you work with people to get those? These are the small things that you can do each day. What sort of things are you helping parents do?

Hannah Strong 21:21

Hmm, it really is first understanding the brain of their child and what the research shows us are the core kind of emotional wounds that are caused by divorce. And then also looking at their child as an individual. So if people have more than one child. Yeah, they often get lumped together, don't they? Yeah, yeah. And actually, they're all individuals. And one child might react very anxiously to the divorce, one might brush it off and say, No, I'm fine. And they they all have very different reactions to the same thing happening. And so we want to look at What the research gives us is a foundation that we can see as patterns across all children, but then also hold each child as an individual looking at their core needs. And some children are more susceptible to be anxious. Some children are more susceptible to pushing everything down and putting a smile on their face and being little people pleasers. And the way we work with different children is different because children need different things. And so often people come to me and they almost want this silver bullet. If I say this thing or I do this thing, then everything will be okay. And there is that in some ways, which is if you understand what the research says your children need, and you understand deeply who your children are, and you understand your own stuff and what you are bringing to this, that is the silver bullet. But it's not as simple as say this thing and then it will all be okay.

Kate Daly 22:58

So when you talk about the research and what the research says, what specifically are you meaning? So what does the research say? That obviously, well you say, obviously, one of the things that we try and help parents with is the importance of not demonizing the other parent, whatever's gone on between you, you know, an attack on the other parent, because the children are half of each of you, is going to be an attack on them and they will interpret it in that way. And so you see some, as you say, sometimes they're not able to verbalize it in quite that way, but subconsciously that's kind of what's happening for them. So, what are some of the key research findings about what the best way of handling divorce and separation is?

Hannah Strong 23:40

Really good question. So we have the needs of a child at the center of this, and then we have the needs of or the experiences of each of the grown-ups who are in this situation. And quite often all of it can kind of become an enmeshed altogether, and that can be really difficult. And really, it's about processing. So it's about the parents being able to process their own stuff around the separation so they can clearly box that in a different box to the needs of their child. And that is the key thing that makes all of the difference. You as a parent being able to process your own emotions, your own things. And it's so valid. All of that is so, so valid. It's not about squashing it down, it's not about masking it, it's so valid, but it's about finding a container where you can process that, say with a therapist, with someone trusted, and separate to that, understanding what your child needs. And if you are aiming for your child to be a child that thrives mentally and emotionally, which I'm sure everyone listening to this is, it's about your child having the opportunity to be securely attached to both parents. That is the aim for them to be securely attached to both parents.

Kate Daly 25:03

So let's just unpack that again, because I think this is really the key to all of this. A secure attachment in a child is built by doing what?

Hannah Strong 25:13

A secure attachment is built by a child feeling like they can come in to emotional or physical closeness with a parent. And they feel like they can safely bring things up, they can safely explore what's going on in their emotional world. That parent can see what's going on in them and help them to make sense of what's going on in them. And it feels safe and okay for the child to do that. But it also feels safe and okay for the child to be separate from that parent for a period of time and know that they are safe and okay in themselves, whether that's going to school or whether that's going to their other parents' house, for example. And it can take some work, depending on where your child is at, to cultivate those two states. You might find that your child feels really okay with that process, or finds that process tricky, or find some areas of that place okay. So sitting next to me on the sofa and watching TV feels fine. But as soon as I ask questions about how they're feeling about having two homes, oh no, don't like it, and they'll move away. And that's just your cues. The first stage is just awareness. I'm just going to hold in my awareness where my child might be at and whether they feel safe coming into emotional and physical closeness with me, and whether they feel safe being separate from me for a period of time. And if there are any cues to show me that they're not feeling safe with one of those things, then me maybe getting some advice from a therapist to see how I can help my child work through this. So the only way is through. We're all familiar with the comfort zone, and um, our children will have their own comfort zone. There'll be things that they're very comfortable with, and there'll be things that they are very much not comfortable with. And when we talked about before building a resilient child, we want to keep our child in their comfort zone for a period of time. But also we want them to be able to step out into what we call their stretch zone. So this is where they feel stretched outside of what feels comfortable, but it doesn't feel overwhelming. So outside of that, we then have their overwhelm zone. And children can tolerate going into their stretch zone if they know they can come back into their comfort zone for a period of time, regenerate energy, and then back out into that stretch zone again. And that's how we build resilience.

Kate Daly 27:54

Yeah. And this is going to sound like a really bizarre example, but I I'm going to say it anyway. So we we've just moved house and we had the cat was in the catering whilst we were moving house. So we had to reintroduce the cat to the house, and it was exactly that. We had to create this safe zone in a small room for the cat, and the cat sat in there with us. We all sat in the room with the cat, and we opened the door when the cat got curious about the edge of the room and I and sort of started to try and look under the door. We opened the door and then the cat would go out and stick her head out, and then she'd come back and want to be with us, and we'd do lots of praise and stroking and getting her own comfort again. And it kind of reminded me of this kind of thing. It's you've created the zone where there's cuddles, and it depends on the age and stage of the child. I guess my teenage son probably doesn't want to have the cuddles. That's not his own.

Hannah Strong 28:43

Yeah, the comfort zone could be could be separateness, you know, that I feel comfortable when I'm in my room and I've got the door closed and I don't need to open up. And actually, the stretch thing for that child is being able to tolerate opening up a bit and then being able to recruit.

Kate Daly 28:58

Exactly. Or sometimes for older kids, they might appear to want to be separate, but they need to know that you're there. So often it's about being in the bedroom, but that doesn't mean you can go out all the time. They want to know that you're there and that you're doing your thing in your routine, and the routine that you create sometimes is what keeps them grounded and stable. So I think it's it's that balance, isn't it, of understanding the different ages and stages. But I I like this idea that it's something that's very teachable because I think there's so many negative messages about divorce. Sometimes the opposite thing happens where a whole bunch of, you know, therapists and everything else get together and say, no, you can overcome divorce. People's outcomes can be exactly the same. And we sort of almost want to gloss over some of the hard work and the pain that is involved. So I think acknowledging that divorce can be very disruptive for children, but that that's not the end of the story.

Hannah Strong 29:55

And I guess that's exactly it. Yeah. So it is so possible for children to thrive through divorce, even if things are a bit tricky, it's so possible for them to thrive if they are supported to process it in the right way. And that bit does take work and it takes the parent educating themselves and going through this process with their child, but that ultimately makes it possible for their child to thrive.

Kate Daly 30:19

Yeah, and I think also that speaks to this idea that you pulled up earlier, which is well, maybe there are people listening where it was a nightmare at the beginning and lots of wrong things were done and said, Well, you know, hello, join the club. It's it doesn't mean you have to do everything perfect from the start. The whole point of looking at it from this perspective is that this is something that you can pick up, even if you've had a really acrimonious divorce, you can still be picking this up at this point and helping to improve the emotional attachment of your children, whether they're living with you, not living with you, wherever they are and whatever stage they're at, this is a work in progress. It's not something that has to be done perfectly from the outset. There are intervention points you can salvage.

Hannah Strong 31:09

It's not possible to get it perfect. Even with the best will in the world, there will be things you'll miss, things you don't get quite right, things that you beat yourself up about when you go to bed because you think, oh, I feel like I didn't answer that question the right way, or I didn't see what they're actually trying to say there, or maybe I brushed them off, or I felt really emotional when they asked me that. So I kind of just shut down. That will happen. And again, bringing it back to the research, which was really reassuring. Our children need us to get this right for them 30% of the time in order for them to be able to process the divorce pregnancy. I love that stat. Yeah.

Kate Daly 31:49

That feels like a normal person's stat. Yeah. Hope lives here, people. Hope lives here 30% of the time. That's good. That feels very achievable, doesn't it? For probably lots of people. Yeah, 30% of the time, that's incredible. And I guess the other thing for me is I mean, we talked about this a little bit before, didn't we? This idea sometimes that it's one conversation and then it's done, I think really needs a good old challenge here, doesn't it? Because we get a lot of people asking, you know, how do you tell the children? And that's just one small part of it. We're not talking about having a single conversation. This isn't a one and done type situation. This is about creating habits and constant conversations and constant awareness because divorce is a process, it's not an event, and it will last a very long time, won't it, for everybody involved or forever. So it's about creating behavioral habits rather than learning to have a conversation that ticks all the boxes, as you say, and you say the right thing, and then okay, we don't need to worry about it anymore. Speak to me a little bit about that. What's the journey from conversation one to conversation 100?

Hannah Strong 33:03

I could not agree with you more. And the initial conversation that you have with your child is a drop in the ocean. And yes, it's normal to take it seriously, it's normal to worry about it. But if you're at the place where you haven't had the conversation with them yet, there's lots of mental preparation work you can do with them, especially on those attachment networks of the brain. Because when a child is told something big is going to change in their life, what happens in their mind is their mind will try and make sense of it because their mind is a sense-making machine. And it will scan everything there is in their mind to try and make sense of this thing that's happening. And if you are able to put some foundational things there in place within the attachment networks of their brain, they are scanning and oh, I find that. Scanning it, oh, I find that. And that can really help. If you're already cast that stage, that's okay. And the conversation, it's important, but remember it is a drop in the ocean. The most important part to get right is the processing. And the processing of the divorce will last for your children's entire childhood and likely into their adulthood too. That doesn't mean they're going to lay awake every night thinking about this and trying to understand this for the rest of their life. It absolutely does not mean that. But it means throughout the different ages and stages of their life, as their mind and comprehension of the world is expanding, they will have different questions. They will wonder about different things. And as their minds are sense-making machines, they will be trying to make sense of different things at different stages. So, for example, if you have very young children in nursery, by the time they get to roughly age four, they will start to be more aware of their peers and they'll see, oh, okay, they've got two parents in the home and oh, they just live with one of their parents. And they will start to see what their life is like in comparison to another person's life. And then they that will bring up questions for them and things that they need to process. We skip forward a few years to the teen years, where what relationships mean, romantic relationships, becomes much more meaningful to their brain at that time. And their brain is going through a huge sense-making process within those teen years around romantic relationships. And actually, they've seen their two key attachment figures not be able to maintain this healthy, functioning, romantic relationship. And okay, if I'm 50% of one parent and 50% of the other parent, am I able to have a healthy functioning relationship? What is healthy functioning relationship? And all of these questions will be coming up for them. So being aware of the different ages and stages is helpful, and having the language to be able to explain to your children in a way that helps them to process the breakdown of your relationship, crucially in a way that's free of blame and free of shame. And it might feel like there's blame or shame on one side or on both sides, but the children need to be able to understand the truth of a breakdown of relationship. But in a way that the research would support makes sense to the developing mind of a child. So very visual is helpful, helps with that sense-making process. And we have whole frameworks mapped out for this, which makes such a huge difference to children. But in a way, it's free of blame and free of shame. And that can be really tricky for parents if it does feel like there's blame or shame on one or either side to be able to have a language to explain this really kind of grown-up adult stuff in a way that's based on needs and values of people rather than they did this or they didn't do this, for example.

Kate Daly 37:05

Yeah. The blame and shame thing is huge because if we can move away from divorce being a narrative around blame and shame, then obviously that allows us as the parents to process, which in turn allows the children to process. And that's what breaks this cycle of it all being a big disaster that snowballs or it being seen as that way in that way. So I think that it just shows even more the importance of changing the narrative around divorce and separation. And I think whenever you you try and do that, you get a whole bunch of people saying, oh, you're promoting divorce as a lifestyle choice. And it's it's nothing to do with that. It's about giving people the space to process and to make sense of what's happened. It's not making a judgment and it's not saying that, oh, everybody should leave relationships the minute they get tough. But it's allowing people to have that time and space to process what's happened so that they can then parent their children. And that seems so fundamental.

Hannah Strong 38:08

And helping their children to process what's happened so their children can understand what healthy relationship is. So one of the biggest gifts we can give our children throughout divorce is helping them to understand what healthy relationship is, which essentially is two people coming together who really deeply understand who they are as individuals. They understand their needs and they understand their values. And they have a shared space in the middle that they can find a way forward. The language I use the children is finding a way forward that is good for you, good for me, and good for everyone. And if we can find a way forward that's good in that way, so basically meets my needs and values, meets your needs and values with some healthy compromise, then that is essentially a healthy relationship. And for them to understand maybe where that balance just wasn't possible between mum and dad.

Kate Daly 39:10

Yeah. No, it's lovely. In a moment, uh Hannah, I'm going to ask you to share some top tips for supporting your child through separation. But before that, if this episode has given you a bit of clarity or comfort, or just a tip that's made things feel a little bit more manageable, make sure to follow the divorce podcast on your favorite podcast app. Each week we're here with expert advice and real support to help you through your separation one step at a time. So, Hannah, what are some of the most practical and actionable tips for a parent who wants to start to support their child right now if they're listening to this podcast?

Hannah Strong 39:49

The two key things you can do to get your divorce right to your child is to focus on what is in your control and to do your work as a parent, to process your emotions, regulate yourself, and to be able to show up your child in the way that you want to. And the second thing is educating yourself on how divorce affects the child, what language you can use, what tools you can use. So when they come to you with these big why questions or these worries, or you see different behaviors, you know how to handle it and you feel confident and you know what you're doing. Those two things really are the things that make all the difference to children going through divorce. But to be honest, parents do.

Kate Daly 40:39

Yeah. And it's weird, isn't it? Because that whole idea of kind of putting your own oxygen mask on first, we talk about it quite a bit, but people seem very reluctant to spend any time or money or energy on and healing themselves. But actually, you're the instrument for your child, aren't you? So if you are in that really damaged and bad and awful dark place, it's going to be almost impossible for you to show up for your child in the right way. And the only way to overcome that, as you've said, is to do the work for yourself. And that might mean asking for some time and space from your ex if they're trying to rush you to the next stage, or there are lots of practical things to do. And it might be seeking out, as you said, the groups, the support, the professionals who can actually help you make sense of what's happened to process the emotion. And that's what allows you to show up for your child. So it all sounds so straightforward when we talk about it like this. And I know how hard it is. And a bit of me is sitting here thinking, oh, do as I say, not as I do, kind of thing. Because I definitely am not holding my hands up to being somebody who navigated their divorce and separation well. And that undoubtedly had and has an impact on my children. So I'm not trying to be glib by saying this, but I just think it is really important to remind people that that is the starting point, isn't it?

Hannah Strong 42:04

That's the starting point. But also I would like people to walk away from this feeling hopeful rather than full of guilt because I feel like I didn't get it right from the start. And wherever you are at, whether you're thinking about separating, whether you're in the process of it, whether you're five years down the line, ten years down the line, whether your children are now grown up, if you understand these kind of emotional wounds that are caused by divorce, this can be worked on and healed at any stage. Attachment can be worked on and healed at any stage. So it is still so in your control as a parent to show up as the parent you want to be from this point forward. Exactly.

Kate Daly 42:49

Where can people find out more information about you and about definitely your visual framework, which I'm super interested in?

Hannah Strong 42:58

I have a website called mythrivingchild.co. You can also follow me on Instagram, which is Hannah underscore strong underscore therapist. And you're welcome to drop me a DM, message me, I try to come back to as many of them as I can, as that personal touch can really help you to understand your specific child in your specific situation.

Kate Daly 43:24

Brilliant. Thank you for that. And of course, we'll put all your details in the show notes as well. Now, if you're looking for more general separation and co-parenting support, you can visit amicable.co.uk, where you can explore our free resources or book a free advice consultation. And you can find me on LinkedIn and Insta, and you can hear about new podcast episodes by subscribing for updates and visiting thedivorcepodcast.com, or you can find us on your favourite listening platform. Don't forget as well, we would love to hear from you. Please share your questions on divorce and separation and co-parenting with us at hello at amicable.co.uk, because that helps us pick new guests and they might even just be the topic of a future episode as well. So please do get in touch. You can also join our subscription platform, Amicable Space, where you'll find our community forum, a safe place to ask questions and anything through separation, co-parenting, and divorce. Members also get access to our monthly QA webinars and Amicals Divorce Specialists, where you can ask your questions in real time. The link to sign up is in the episode description. Thank you, Hannah, for joining me, and thank you, everybody, for listening.