are you looking for a podcast where you can hear from real people regarding their real Dental drama if so then
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you've come to the right place join hosts Bethany Penny and Dr Reena Kuba as
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we dive into the solutions we've created and the mistakes we've made while
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managing Dental drama let's get started howdy howdy hi
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hey what's up um not much so I've cut kind of a
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uh I don't think you're going to expect what I'm about to say here okay um which I like keeping you on your toes every
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now and then I feel like like everything you say like shocks me so good good okay
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I like it uh you never know what's going to come out of my mouth um which is funny preface to what I'm about to say
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here okay um so we're always I'm always talking about you know how can we impart
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wisdom to our teams how can you impart wisdom to me how can I you know add to
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the repertoire of my associate and the dental student right like so that's like
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we're always trying to share wisdom and and help people come up because somebody
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helped us come up right and so my my my uh topic for today
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uhuh um how how do we know when to shut
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up like I had had a moment today that it had nothing to do with Dentistry but it
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was with my dad who I love dearly and he is one of the sweetest cutest most
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Charming people like people who meet him are just like he's just adorable and he is um but we can butt
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heads and I think for him he's like uh my stupid middle child again is just going crazy and not following like
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traditional Indian like you know method ologies of like yes Father no father
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you're right father right like I'm always the one like my older sister follows that to a tea and then I've
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always been like yeah I don't know man like that that doesn't really make sense to me and he's like um but we we we have
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a great relationship whatever but today was not a great relationship day and he and I were at odds about something and I
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was like well let me explain why I think this blah blah blah blah and I you know
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I go off and rattle off what I'm thinking and stupid me like you know we
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we I know him and why did I bother because I was waiting for this moment of
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like ah I see and he did not see at all and he was
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like well that's just wrong thinking and I was like it's not like he slapped me in the face but it's almost like I kind
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of whipped back was like w and and I was mad at myself for going why did you
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think you would change the mind of this 91-year-old man like what were you thinking you are the idiot here like
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what why didn't you just shut up like clearly he was not ever going to see it
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from your Viewpoint and now I'm frustrated and now I frustrated him like I could see the irritation all over his
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face and he's usually just such a happy face right you could tell like the Grimace on his face and I'm just like
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and of course it all happened like right as I was about to leave their house so now I'm like okay now I've like left this stinky fart like floating in the
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air by you know like I've trapped him in the car with it like peace I'm out right
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and so I just was like why did I do that why cannot not just learn to shut up and
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so I knew I would be meeting with you later and so I'm like you know what that I'm sure for all the things we talk
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about like we should talk about this and we should talk about our compensation reviews and we should talk talk about
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feedback and so I'm going to challenge you with the opposite when do we need to shut the f up that's a good one that's a
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good one we don't talk about staying quiet or biting your tongue or we really
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don't but it is exceedingly valuable to think about
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that so I have a few things that are already popping up in my mind okay okay well I thought I was going to stump you
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here for a minute but I got I got I thought I was going to have you shutting up for a minute without advice maybe we
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should just end the podcast with silence the next 30 minutes of just is the next digest going to be
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blank what at least have the title page when to shut up yes all blank yes there
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you go now now isut says dot dot dot we don't know cuz she finally decided to
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shut up um but no seriously like there's there's a time in place to hold it in
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and why I thought I was going to change this man's mind um and then like even as
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I'm thinking about I'm like yeah there are multiple times with patience that you know you're like sitting there trying to go but but you need to sign on
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for this because blah blah blah I'm like maybe there are times I'm like I should just shut up and let the patient sit in
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that uncomfortable silence and wallow in why they think it's a good idea not to
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fix the absess tooth you know what I mean um so I I think that's what I wanted to talk about today is because we're always
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talking about what to say and I think I want to highlight the value of maybe not saying anything
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and just shutting up yep yep so I can think of two things right off the top of my head that have actually come up this
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week that I think are relevant to this one is a
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employee that was receiving some very difficult harsh feedback uh to the from
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well technically from me but on behalf of the practice owner just
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performance issues that were reaching a point she'd been talked to on multiple
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different occasions and it was reaching the point of like shape up or year out
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type conversation and in that conversation
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there was a lot it was wouldn't call it rebuttal I would call it explanations
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for questions to clarify like um that is a moment to me when to shut
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up when you're receiving harsh feedback or even feedback in
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general I think close your mouth and open your ears to listen and that's not
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to say that you can't say something at some point but you probably shouldn't for a while you need to ruminate on it
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you need to think on it you need to if you're thinking about what you're going to say next you're missing what is being
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said to you in that moment and your explanations your excuses your defense
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defense is not helpful in that moment it's not helping you at all but it's
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certainly not helping the person that's giving you that feedback so so in defense of the defensive person because
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I think I've come a long way with that um I think it is where I'm going no no no I'm being misunderstood you you're
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not understanding why I did this or what and I think what I was lost for me for a
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long time was but they are they do and there's thing beyond that and I'm still
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caught up in this level and they've elevated past that level um and so I
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think that you know has been something that over time because I do I'm like no no no I I I I a reason for this and
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listen to Why and um kind of like with my dad where it was me going well this is why you know I said this and and you
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could just see all over his face the aha moment that I was anticipating never came and isn't going to come and so for
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me it's like okay then I need to think beyond that like what's the next level beyond that because he's not on the same
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page as me does not want to be on the same page as as me and won't be yeah and so could I should I have saved my breath
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and prevented leaving from that stinky fart in the room feeling you know you're
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just like why why did I bother yeah it's not there's times when it's not it's
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just not worth it which sounds I with all the episodes that we've done I think
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you're exactly right we've we've really not talked about this because we're always oh but communicate this way or
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say this or or approach it from this standpoint and there is a value to from
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time to time just quit talking just listen or
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recognize we're not going to come to an agreement on this I can't tell you how many times I do this in even in my
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marriage I've learned over the years you know early on in marriage I'm like but he must he's got to understand this he's
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got to know that this is why I'm upset so that going forward this won't
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continue to happen and now you know 22 years into marriage I'm like I ain't
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never going to understand and so I can waste all this breath and energy trying
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to explain why it bothered me but if I know he's never going to get it then what's the point like why sit here and
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try to explain it again just come to terms with the fact he will never get it
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think outside the box CU if this is going to upset you every time fix yourself at some point and so it's like
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okay we're done talking about this and so I'll catch myself from time to time when I can feel myself getting
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frustrated explaining something I'm like never mind sorry never mind he's like well no you can continue I'm like nope
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no NOP NOP cuz if I continue I'm going to get upset you're going to be like I still don't understand let's stop myself
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before we even get to that point so there's value in being quiet yes for sure so what happened with this one then
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that was getting the feedback that she didn't want or she kept so at one point because again this was multiple
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conversations in and at one of the points when she was
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responding I just said hey this really isn't a conversation I'm sharing this
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information with you I'm letting you know that we are already looking for
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other options to potentially replace you if you have any kind of shot at
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keeping your job it needs to be a miraculous turnaround so I don't need to hear what you have to say
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this is for you to receive the information and how did that end like did she receive it or did she leave or
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did she she she she did recently get let go
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um so all that to say again I don't think that was necessarily because she didn't
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well I mean I she didn't listen I I made it overtly clear like I'm giving you
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like basically two weeks to to show a miraculous turnaround and if that doesn't happen happen you will be fired
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and so she didn't maybe she didn't listen maybe she just was like Oh no I got to
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start looking elsewhere for another job and didn't focus on what she could have done to preserve her her position but
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ultimately I don't think she listened um so I think that's when it gets us in
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trouble like when somebody's coming at us with information our natural response
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is to be defensive or to explain or to justify and sometimes we just need to
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shut our mouth and absorb what we're hearing chew on it for a little bit
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before responding yucky that that whole thought
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of how how that conversation would have gone down for you to have to say to somebody hey I need you to listen like
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to get you to that point Bo yucky um okay so you said you had two examples so that was one so the other example was
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actually patient interaction that I was able witness in an office and again I
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give big kudos to the team member that I work with business team member that I do
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believe did her darnest to try to get this very escalated
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patient deescalate she and thankfully again
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kudos to her after the interaction went very south it did not go well she came
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back immediately and said all right tell me what did I what could I have done differently and just like we're talking
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about with this other employee she listened like she didn't justify she didn't explain she she absorbed every
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amount of feedback that I gave her and that's exceedingly valuable for somebody to to open themselves up to feedback
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like that so I'm I'm going to use that as an example in when to be quiet or
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when to not say something but I have to preface that she did a lot of things well in this
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conversation it was a very tough situation so the gentleman came in exceedingly upset about what are they
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always upset about money it's 95% of the time it's about money 99.5% of the time
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I know so he was upset because he thought this procedure was you know
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$1,200 and it was actually $1,400 and um so he was making a lot of he payment
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hot so he was saying things like y'all are unethical you're I can't believe you know a law a lawyer would eat you up
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with this you know just saying a lot of very inflammatory things it is very difficult to stay calm when somebody is
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coming at you like that and so this lady stayed extremely calm but what she did
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wrong and I told her this is she spoke
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too quickly too soon too much what do you mean this this would have
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been a great opportunity to when to shut up because he came in and was firing out
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all these things well what we try to do in that scenario is oh my gosh there's
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so many fallacies that he's said here let me help correct him you know with
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the facts he's not talking facts he's talking just I don't know what he's talking about so let me set him straight
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he's got the wrong fact let me outline and once he sees that this is the factual outline he'll be fine yeah then
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he'll be like oh my gosh I totally see it now look it's right there in writing on the treatment plan that I
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signed so it's like we know we've got the trump card we literally can win this
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conversation because the treatment CL plan clearly says this and oh by the way look at that little signature there like
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that's your signature and so but then that is not the way she presented it by the way I'm
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saying that that's not how it was presented but I think she was like oh I can fix this by explaining this
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situation but he was not in the place to listen not yet and so what she should
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have done is let me keep my mouth shut let me listen listen listen let me ask
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followup questions to make sure I understand what he's saying let me make him feel fully heard before I open my
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mouth at all it with a explanation and I do believe and there's
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no way of knowing but I do believe in this conversation if that would have happened if she would have not said
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anything waited for him to deflate to get all of his nasty comments out ask
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some clarifying questions so what I'm hearing you say is this am I correct in assuming this blah blah
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blah and then ask permission to say hey
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would it be possible for me to explain this document that I have that goes over
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the treatment plan could I could I share that with you and then lead into speaking I think it would have been a
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very different conversation I really do believe the one mistake she made was not staying quiet long enough in that
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conversation B so how did it end then but not well not well at all he he left
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angry she was not able to deescalate he left making all kinds of threats um to
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the practice and so unfortunately she couldn't deescalate and I think really
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her best ability was her best effort was put forward and it just couldn't
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deescalate but I think it's a clear example of man sometimes just keeping our mouth shut so any tips on kind of
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knowing when we should do that I guess in this case it's like somebody that's clearly um on an emotional train versus
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a logical train and I know like for me outside of the practice with personal
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relationships there are friends and family members and things like that where it's just like okay there are
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moments where I'm not dealing with a um logical person right now and um you know
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like my family for example we're a very emotionally driven family and my husband's family is very neutral so I've
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learned a lot from him where the downside can be you're so neutral that it's like are you
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alive do you care you know like that that's I guess that's what I'm kind of asking is like are there moments where
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if I'm if I shut up too much is it like I'm going to come across as I don't care or that I'm not listening um so are
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there are there times that that you would know that shutting up is what we
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should be doing so I'm going to give you a counter example here in just a second
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um from a team meeting that I had today um so anytime we're dealing with an emotionally charged person the default
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mode should be quiet for the most part I mean there will come a point in time when you feel
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that person settling down that you can then engage with them but when you're
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dealing with an emotionally charged person honestly your words aren't going to be very helpful at
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all other than clarifying questions or paraphrasing you know so I think the I
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use the term like the teenager principal a lot to describe these
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situations cuz it's like we've got 13-year-old daughters now and um there's
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moments and times where my kid is a level had a just great kid but there are
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times where I'm like oh my gosh she is like highly emotional so you think of
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like a what we imagine in our head as like a typical teenager just off the rail emotion and crying and blah blah
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blah and you're like would we come to them in that moment to a you know
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zit-faced 13-year-old you know emotional teenager and be like honey the logic of
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the situation is you don't need that boy that boy just shouldn't you know you
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shouldn't be this upset about a boy right you're like is that going to help that person no that would not help a
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highly emotional person in that moment what do you do you go tell me more talk
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to me about got it fill me in and you're listening so when we think about that and we kind of apply it in an adult
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setting it makes a lot of sense like if you've got a a 70-year old man that's throwing a temper tantrum that's not the
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time that we come in with logic it's not going to work just like it wouldn't work for the 13-year-old it's not going to
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work for this 70-year-old teenager that's throwing a fit right now so I think that's the stumping part because
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we have so many 40y old 70y old 35y old
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55y olds that we don't typically expect to be a 13-year-old meltdown moment
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right now and we're seeing that all the time and I think social media is the the
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kind of the Crux of because people are allowed to do that online and then they carry it out into the real world and um
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anyway I think that that's part of why I think some of this kind of uh you know
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ends up slapping me in the face cuz I wasn't expecting it which I should be expecting it but to me I'm like wait for
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real this like 60-year-old is going off the rail about 200 bucks like in your example or um you know my dad who's
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typically a very calm understanding uhhuh uh-huh he's the ultimate people pleaser um and so me thinking like a
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fool today that I he was going to see my side and no he reverted back to teenager
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mode yes um or was I the teenager trying to press my opinion on him so I don't
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know I don't know anyway back to your so teenager yeah imagine teenager so we we
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attribute too much logic to adults like oh they're an adult they should be able to logically navigate this
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conversation but when you sense an emotionally charged person you need to think oh the teenager rule keep your
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mouth shut just shut up and listen and so I think that's one example now to
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your question though a counter example like if you're ever too silent does it
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show apathy or or too much neutrality so I was at a team meeting today with just
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a precious doc of mine I just love working with him and his team was giving
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them a hard time during team meeting because they said we were
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talking about communication you know lots of communication tips that we were talking about today and he was talking
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about how he really struggles with communication you know he's a male he's got you know a wife and daughters and he
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said this is just something I'm always having to work at I'm not good at it I tend to like want to shy away from real
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intentional deep conversation it makes me uncomfortable and so his team was all like no really really is that true and
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they I mean obviously they're like it's very true and so um his one of his team
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members was like Hey you know I'll say doctor Jones you know oh hey Dr Jones um by the
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way I tore a tendon in my ankle and I might have to have surgery
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H and she was like H what kind of responses H or hey um Dr Jones my
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father-in-law is dying I might have to be out next week H so she was giving him a hard time
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saying no matter what information is shared with you it's h so there could
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come a point where keeping your mouth shut can be seen as apathy or and the
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point she was trying to make is no matter how dramatic it is it's the same response and he he shared and he was
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like I just don't know what to say like what do you say to that piece of information and so he's like I don't
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want to say anything but I don't want to say the wrong thing and so H is just it
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fits and she was like but it doesn't it's not an appropriate response so to
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your point I think there's times where we can't stay silent or our silence
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could be seen as apathy or not caring I I think I uh I've always been because I
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come from this super emotional family that I've always thought of that as uncaring yeah and getting offended by it
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and going okay I just told you I I I think of I may have mentioned this on a different episode a different podcast
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episode but like I go back to Seinfeld and there's an episode where the boyfriend doesn't put an exclamation
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point after the news that Elaine's friend was having a baby and they break up because she's like well you didn't
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show enough enthusiasm about this and I'm just like yeah I see that you like I totally see
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that you don't care that I tore my achilles like what kind of human are you right like give you my blood and soul
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but you probably expect me to hobble in on work anyway you don't even care about my ankle right so I think there is
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something to be said for you know um expressions and emotions and meeting
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people where they need to be met um so yes that is absolutely the perfect example of like no we need you to say
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something something something some reaction which to me is like when to shut up so if you're if you're a natural
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shut up person like if you just naturally avoid communication your default mode is actually don't say
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anything then you may actually have to be challenging yourself how can I say something because you're going to be
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this podcast is not for you yeah we should have said that at the beginning turn this off don't listen anymore go
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listen to the 200 other episodes we have on communication if you are a robot turn this
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off so my husband I'm like are you hello hello do you have feelings what is going
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on here yeah he can listen to all the other every other episode that we've had is
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communication if you're like no I I've got this I can explain why and you will come over to my side this podcast is for
26:11
you yeah listen closely well I think it's interesting because you may not realize it but I think you have an
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example on this you mentioned that at the beginning of this episode that you
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were trying to explain and trying to win your dad over to understand your
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viewpoint but I think you also have had a lot of growth in the area of when to
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stop coaching or trying to teach somebody so why don't you show your
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example on this um yeah I I is it what I'm so like just
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teaching yes when you feel like like think about the situations you've been in not only at dental school that
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obviously you support with the dental school you you do a ton of just coaching
27:01
individuals G giving free advice free support and then there's times when
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you're like okay I've said all that I can say I need to probably I think yeah
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and I've grown a lot in that because I think it used to like hurt my feelings when I'm like okay hey I've just
27:18
imparted this on you and you're like uh-huh and then you just move on and I'm like did you hear a word I just said or
27:24
do you understand maybe you know what it was me I didn't explain
27:29
properly that I maybe either talked too much about this or I didn't give enough information about that or maybe I gave
27:34
you a wrong example like okay clearly I didn't make it connect the right way let me try again and you know just getting
27:43
frustrated and I I've learned over the years to go to really read my audience better I guess is where I would go with
27:49
that and kind of go okay if this is the reaction I got or the comment I got my
27:56
go-to was always like no no no no no hold on hold on let me let me explain it again or let me tell you again and now
28:01
it's just like okay well I gave you that information you chose not to take it um
28:06
do with it what you want do with it what you want and then you will figure out your own path and I think sometimes
28:12
that's hard for me to watch because I'm like I didn't just make this up I I'm telling you this out of years of
28:18
experience or whatever it may be and you don't see it yet but you will and then
28:25
I'm like but that's not for me to that's not for me to um that doesn't
28:31
need to become my burden and my cross and my hill and my whatever like exactly I want everybody to succeed around me
28:39
and um even though I know this is something like sometimes I could be wrong with that more often than not no
28:48
this is not just unique to me I have seen it over and over and over again and
28:53
if you choose not to um take the historical advice could you be the
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Unicorn that is not touched by this I guess but I think you're gonna be
29:06
touched by this but I think just your personality and your perception is so
29:12
different it may not impact you the same way that it has impacted me or somebody else and so I've got to give you room to
29:21
be you and to either learn from your own mistakes or to miss out on what I didn't
29:26
want you to miss out on but maybe it wasn't important to you like it was to me so I just think yeah I've I've come a
29:33
long way with just kind of going okay I'm this is what I'm going to say for now and do with that information what
29:39
you will or or sometimes I'm just like why you know if it was something like oh go go sign up for this course or go you
29:47
know you need to sign up for the subscription like Bethany's got this unbelievable digest chalk full of
29:52
information I'm a client I podcast with her and I learn something out of every Digest test go sign up what do you mean
30:00
you didn't sign up okay did I tell you how good this is like did I tell you like if you go and try to get this
30:07
information elsewh you going to pay thousands and like you have no idea and then I'm just like why am I pushing this
30:13
on you like you know what all I can do is tell you that it's there yeah um
30:18
whatever it is that I'm talking about and then if you choose not to go forth that's your journey yeah well and I
30:26
think like you said reading the room realizing the audience that you have do they want this information doesn't mean
30:33
that you withhold everything but you might say at once and you realize that
30:38
maybe the reception isn't there or there's disagreement or they see it completely different and that's one of
30:45
those moments where it's like save yourself when to shut up now now because
30:50
there's not a reception there or there's not an eagerness for that information and that's okay we can move on from that
30:56
and that's not your burden to bear that's their burden to bear if then something happens because they didn't
31:03
take that advice and I think that's a very valuable takeaway sometimes it's like we can't let that go because we
31:10
know that's going to cause pain or that's going to cause heartache or they really need to understand this but at
31:15
the end of the day there's only so far you can go with somebody who's not wanting that information and I think
31:21
that's that applies to team members um you know there there's a lot like where
31:26
we want a lot for our team members and we're like What even sometimes even down to like team members and their finances
31:32
yeah and you're like wait a minute you're spending what on What but then you don't have like that that's not a
31:37
smart life choice and you know kind of like our kids I guess you're going to have to let them make mistakes and kind
31:43
of fall where they do um but yeah just sometimes or even with our patients
31:49
and you're like what are you not getting about this let me explain the stainless steel Crown again it's like leave them
31:55
alone at some point shut up they've got to decide on their own because no sooner do I keep going that now I'm going I get
32:01
the review saying well she was shoving her crown down my throat and um that it
32:07
backfire on me like read the room see if they are you know if the patient is open to really wanting to learn and prevent
32:14
and you know improve their health and sometimes they are not on the same page
32:21
and I cannot take that personally every time like exactly I can want the best
32:26
for you but you ultimately have to decide what you want for you yes yes and
32:33
I think you're right that's applicable to team members that's definitely applicable to patients when it It
32:39
ultimately is not we can't make the decision for them to do XYZ treatment we can't we can educate to the best of our
32:45
ability but then at the same time there's a certain point where we have to cut it off well I would imagine just for
32:51
you with your clients too yeah like for you imparting advice to us and like if
32:57
I'm like thanks Bethany I'm not going to heed this piece of advice I think
33:02
watching you kind of go okay well there's only so much I can do here yeah so I think
33:10
that's another key Takeaway on when to shut up it's read your audience and is
33:15
there a reception there is there an eagerness for the information that you're sharing and if not move on don't don't
33:24
keep beating a dead horse shut up move on I use the phrase querer ra what will be
33:31
will be out of that exchange so just let it go and and move on from that and I
33:37
think that's an important Takeaway on this one other quick example that I'll add in on when to shut
33:43
up is completely kind of disconnected to all that we've talked about but I can't tell you how many times I'm in in an
33:50
office listening to team members talk in the hallway or talk to one another and
33:59
it is I wish I could say this like hey now's a good time to shut up because
34:06
there are certain times that that chatter is just not either it's not
34:11
appropriate there's subject matters being shared that could make somebody else
34:16
uncomfortable um it's just we've got tense situations happening in
34:23
rooms and that patient's feeling anxious or whatever and the room and now we're
34:28
out here chatting and laughing and I had a client a meeting that I was in earlier
34:34
this week where one of the patients in the chair was a highly anxious irritable
34:41
patient and one of the uh team members popped in to ask the doctor a quick
34:46
question there had been a lot of chatter out in the hallway it was just kind of a loud moment in the office and the
34:52
patient got very upset and basically said get out to the team member
34:58
and again you think what a crappy patient yeah but also there's a time and
35:04
a place to be chatty and fun and and then there's a time and a place to shut up and most of the time Dearing patient
35:11
care is a time to shut up and so I think that's just another key reminder set set the environment appropriately while we
35:18
while Dentistry is everyday life for us it's not everyday life for the patients in our chair and so we need to have a
35:24
real focus on patient care and doesn't mean we can't chat it just
35:30
means there's a time and a place to be quiet so that would be another example all right well I think it's time
35:36
for us now to zip shut up yes should we have a moment of pause here just so
35:41
people know we're in silence we're done we're done thanks for joining the
35:47
conversation today we hope that you are comforted in knowing that you are not alone but we also hope that you're
35:53
walking away with some really great tips and tricks to try in your practice practice we value your feedback so
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