Joey Pinz Discipline Conversations

#821 Stan Lai: 🎭 Creativity Is Not Magic — It’s a Trainable Process

• Joey Pinz • Episode 821

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In this episode, Joey Pinz sits down with Stan Lai, one of the most influential playwrights and directors of our time, to explore what creativity really is—and what it is not.

Stan challenges the myth that creativity is mysterious or reserved for the gifted. Instead, he reveals how creativity is a traceable process of the mind, shaped by focus, patience, and the ability to remove the habits that block original thinking. Drawing from decades of writing, directing, and teaching, he explains how characters are formed, why improvisation needs structure, and why chasing results often kills the work before it begins.

The conversation also explores how audiences shape (and sometimes distort) creative decisions, why Hollywood feels broken, where AI helps and where it falls short, and why the most meaningful work comes from motivation—not metrics.

🔑 Episode Highlights

  • 🎭 Creativity can be trained — it’s not magic, and it’s not reserved for artists
  • 🧠 Improvisation needs structure — freedom only works when there’s a foundation
  • 🎯 Focus on cause, not effect — why chasing outcomes weakens creative work

This episode is for anyone who wants to think more clearly, create more honestly, and build work that actually lasts.

 

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00:

00.74 JP Stan Lai. Wow. What an inspiring conversation. Stan is a ah playwright, over 40 plays. 00:11.86 JP ah Very, very, very popular in Asia and in Shanghai and Taipei. Can barely walk the streets without you know ah without getting noticed. um We talk about the 50.30 JP He wrote a book, Creativity Tree, which is originally in Chinese, but spent five years and it's now in English, who was released November of 2025. We talk about

00:00:

00.30 JP I'd ask you to be yourself, Stan. Thank you so much for your time. 00:00:02.62 Stan Lai Sure. 00:00:03.70 JP

Who's your favorite NBA player of all time? 00:00:

06.55 Stan Lai All time, I would say Larry Bird. 00:00:10.62 JP Really? 00:00:11.58 Stan Lai

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was very inspirational to me. 00:00:

14.65 JP Very inspirational. 00:00:15.13 Stan Lai Yeah. How's that? 00:00:15.89 JP

So are you a Celtic fan? 00:00:

16.01 Stan Lai i who di Not really. No, I'm not. 00:00:19.13 JP I see. 00:00:19.55 Stan Lai I'm ah i'm a Warriors fan.

00:00:21.14 JP Okay, that's right. 00:00:

21.11 Stan Lai I always have been. 00:00:22.10 JP Yeah, yeah. 00:00:22.42 Stan Lai Yeah. 00:00:23.59 JP

You're Warriors Golden State. 00:00:24.50 Stan Lai Yeah. 00:00:

24.62 JP Of course, that's where you went to school. 00:00:25.02 Stan Lai

But those were the days, man. 00:00:25.86 JP Yeah. 00:00:

26.86 Stan Lai I mean, like, you can't be... Bird versus magic. You know, i don't I don't know how you, no matter how good these guys are these days, I don't know. They jump

00:00:38.10 JP Yeah. 00:00:38.60 Stan Lai ah 00:00:

39.26 JP And there's ah there's a lot of new clips going on about how much Larry Bird, how he trash talked a lot and how he you know how we dominated like that. and

00:00:48.28 Stan Lai Right, right. 00:00:

59.32 Stan Lai Yes, yeah. And there's no three-point line for a lot of the time. 00:01:00.18 JP s That's right.

00:01:02.52 Stan Lai Yeah, right, right. 00:01:

02.88 JP a lot of that time there wasn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:01:04.86 Stan Lai Yeah, yeah. 00:01:05.73 JP He would he would walk into the three-point competition. I remember hearing these stories. Charles Barkley, I think, said it you know for the All-Star Game.

00:01:18.77 JP Yeah. 00:01:

19.98 Stan Lai That's cool. That's very cool. 00:01:22.33 JP And as a kid, did you play as well? 00:01:22.39 Stan Lai Yeah.

00:01:24.37 JP You were born here in DC. 00:01:

25.14 Stan Lai I still play. 00:01:26.39 JP You still play. 00:01:26.46 Stan Lai I still play. Yeah, yeah.

00:01:28.25 JP Yeah. Yeah. 00:01:

28.73 Stan Lai So I've been playing 40 years um just every week. you know I try to get a full court run. And I have my guys in Shanghai, I have my guys in Taipei, and they

00:01:36.09 JP Full court. 00:01:

40.90 Stan Lai you know i'm like I'm the elder on the team, so. 00:01:43.06 JP I say, I say, I say. 00:01:44.02 Stan Lai

but Yeah, yeah. 00:01:

45.32 JP It's good to get that in. It's it's such a beautiful sport. you know it's It's so strategic and it's so you know it looks simple, but there's a lot going on.

00:01:53.34 Stan Lai No. 00:01:

53.52 JP The the coaches don't get enough you know ah credit for what they're doing with the timeouts and the plays, et

00:02:

00.02 Stan Lai And when you're playing, it's like a meditation. you know It's like you've got to see everything. you gotta to see I was privileged to watch Magic Johnson in

00:02:11.56 JP Whoa. 00:02:

12.21 Stan Lai I'm seeing him grab a rebound, ah dribble down, and and then throw a 90-foot no-look pass. 00:02:14.78 JP Yeah.

00:02:20.73 JP No look pass. 00:02:

21.18 Stan Lai And I'm seeing, wow, this guy, he has eyes all over. 00:02:21.41 JP Yeah. 00:02:23.62 Stan Lai

He knows where everybody is at every single moment. 00:02:

23.74 JP He does. 00:02:26.08 Stan Lai And that's something. 00:02:28.44 JP Yeah. 00:02:28.50 Stan

Yeah. 00:02:

28.56 JP i heard I heard him say once, you got to get to a point in your career where you let You let the game come to you a bit. 00:02:34.84

Stan Lai right, that's right. 00:02:35.38 JP you know it's 00:02:

35.56 Stan Lai Jordan said that too, yeah. 00:02:36.73 JP Jordan said it too, yeah. 00:02:37.82

Stan Lai Yeah, yeah. 00:02:

37.89 JP And is there similarity with jazz? Because you're a big jazz fan as well. 00:02:40.76 Stan Lai Oh, I'm a big jazz fan. Oh yeah, and I use improvisation in my own work so much. 00:02:43.16 JP Yeah. 00:02:46.52 Stan Lai you know and it's it's There's an art there, and it's a discipline of letting go while you're very focused. And we can talk about that because it it sounds like

00:02:57.05 JP Yeah. 00:02:

59.83 JP It does. So you've written you've written over 40 plays, Dan. What do you do with the blank page? Did it ever frighten

00:03:

09.40 Stan Lai never, never frighten me. If there's a blank page, I just let it be, you know, and just, you know, some other day it'll come, you know, but no, blank pages

00:03:36.47 JP Wow. 00:03:

37.24 Stan Lai Yeah, yeah. So that's pressure. That's talking about pressure. It's like, I mean, I'm so grateful. but my'm My audience you know loves me so much that they

00:03:47.57 JP That's wonderful. 00:03:

49.81 Stan Lai you know and to To deliver something that they want to see time and again. 00:03:50.47 JP Hmm. 00:03:54.27 Stan Lai you know it's it's a lot of pressure. So you know when I get down to close to opening night, it's definitely nerve wracking. 00:04:02.61 JP Hmm.

00:04:

02.87 Stan Lai And you need a lot of discipline to get by that. Yeah. yeah 00:04:06.00 JP Yes, you do. 00:04:07.70 Stan Lai tuning into you. yeah 09.43 JP I saw an interview with you, and you asked one of the masters how they write a play, and you were embarrassed by the question, but but they said they they 22.01 Stan Lai Actually, it was a novelist who was one of the most famous novelists in the Chinese language. 00:04:23.89 JP I was a novelist. 00:04:26.05 Stan Lai His name is Jing Yong. He wrote all these swordsman novels, you know, the classic swordsman novels. And I was, man, I was sitting next to him at a dinner, 39.70 Stan Lai And I asked him, and and once that question came out of my mouth, I said, God, can you say a stupider question? You know, I mean, it's like sitting next to

00:04:51.35 Stan Lai um Can you tell me how to play basketball? 00:04:

52.89 JP Yeah, how do you dribble? 00:04:53.03 Stan Lai you know it's 00:04:54.33 JP

00:04:54.52 Stan Lai ah 00:04:55.13 JP Yeah. 00:04:

55.57 Stan Lai What's your secret for playing basketball? 00:04:56.34 JP yeah 00:04:57.13 Stan Lai know and And he was so gracious to answer me. And it was such a mind-boggling answer. He says, I spend all the time on the characters. 00:05:07.83 Stan Lai And once I'm done with the characters, they know how to write. They they write the novel themselves. They they know what to do. and And that's what I do when

00:05:

23.18 JP So tell me about that. do you When you create a character, is it sometimes modeled after somebody? Is it is it completely from organic origin? 33.01 Stan Lai It's always modeled after somebody. You have to, you know but it's it's sometimes it's not conscious. 00:05:35.06 JP Really? Really? 38.14 Stan Lai you know It's like you create these characters and you know and either they're from your life Or they're from anything you've seen, like a movie or TV show or 57.40 Stan Lai And that's when I talk to actors when they when when they want to know more about the role. I can sometimes use these people as as an example, you know,

00:06:

20.86 JP The process, though, Stan, please explain to me how these characters that you've created create the story. I mean, how how does that happen? mean, there's so 33.88 Stan Lai Yeah. Well, in my early days when my actors had more time to work with me and they were willing to use improvisation to work in the studio with me and they

00:06:38.43 JP Hmm. Hmm. 00:06:

44.41 Stan Lai What I would do is i would send up I would set up a rough, you might want to call it a rough scenario, but it would it would be a story. There would be a

00:07:

03.26 Stan Lai go you know you can't just go you get you got to say stand give me a topic right so so improv doesn't work without a topic it's the same with jazz they're

00:07:04.34 JP Right. I need something. 00:07:08.57 JP Right. 00:07:

17.19 JP Right. 00:07:30.17 Stan Lai I will develop a character with them and then they will be part of the story that I tell them. So the story is not necessarily complete. know Sometimes it's

00:07:

47.06 Stan Lai And so we start, they start developing the character. I start developing scenarios for them to improvise on in the studio. 00:07:57.53 Stan Lai So like, for instance, Perhaps my most famous work is called Secret Love in Peach Blossom Land. 00:08:04.44 JP Yes. 00:08:04.66 Stan Lai It was performed in America at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival. It's coming up to its 40th anniversary, in a couple of months. 00:08:10.55 JP Wow. 00:08:11.33 Stan Lai So I have four different groups performing the play in in China and in Taiwan. 00:08:13.30 JP Amazing. 00:08:18.34 Stan Lai And I look back to, there's an iconic scene in that play because it's it's about, the Secret Love in Peach Bossam Land is two plays. 00:08:29.20 Stan Lai And it's, there are two theater groups who are booked into a theater and they can't find the theater manager, all right? If that makes any sense to you. Okay,

00:08:

44.44 Stan Lai So let's find the stage, the theater manager. They can't find him. So it's like, I'm grabbed, like Joey, someone comes into your studio right now and says, 59.35 Stan Lai that's That's what it's like. So the secret secret love is a very serious, you would call it a tragedy, a modern tragedy about two lovers who meet in Shanghai,

00:09:

12.12 Stan Lai And and and but the the funny thing about the story is that both of them go to Taiwan. You know, this is in 1949, where my parents, when the civil war in China 29.70 Stan Lai These two million people never were able to contact their families, their parents, their lovers, yeah, for 40 years. 00:09:34.65 JP Wow. 37.16 Stan Lai So I put these two people in the same city, but they don't know that they're both there. And so they all have their own, they have their own lives. And

00:10:

00.11 Stan Lai So he puts out this advertisement in the newspaper and five days later she answers the ad. So there's an iconic scene where the two lovers, you know, and

00:10:05.73 JP Wow. 00:10:

13.12 Stan Lai The man is dying. You know, it's it's a very sweet scene and we improvised it. only once because that one time was perfect. It's like, it's like um i so I have

00:10:30.23 JP Interesting. 00:10:

30.55 Stan Lai so So the actors have, they've been working on this play for months and finally I said, okay, today we're gonna do the hospital scene, so let's do it. So the

00:10:

47.51 Stan Lai and and The woman was my wife, Nai Chu, who later turned out to be, to produce all of my works, but she was really fantastic on stage. So I said, okay, you

00:11:

11.31 Stan Lai So just sit down, bring, you have your present, you brought a present, and say whatever you want. Just don't cry. you know as i was saying, I hate it if if you 26.26 Stan Lai So we set up the scene. It was in my living room, by the way. We didn't even have a proper studio in those days. This was 1986. and Naichu knocked on the 43.64 Stan Lai And he sees him. He's on a wheelchair. Oh, and then the wife says, but the nurse says, oh, um, Mrs. Jiang, I'm, I can help you with the bill downstairs at the, 59.93 Stan Lai She said, I can pay the bill tomorrow. I can, oh, I see. So she goes. So you see the the nurse gets the the wife to leave. 00:12:04.84 JP

Hmm. Hmm. 00:12:

07.89 Stan Lai The two of them are there. And what happens next? I tell you, I couldn't write it as a writer, you know, because it's so beautiful. what they They just sit

00:12:

26.71 Stan Lai And then 40 years later, they just, you know, oh, you know, how's your health? Yeah, you know, oh. And then they so finally work their way slowly into more

00:12:57.50 JP Tampa, Florida. Yeah. 00:12:

58.70 Stan Lai You're in Florida. Okay. I don't know the street names there, but it would be like if you were in New York, let's say. She would say, well, we when we first

00:13:

10.42 Stan Lai And then he says, oh yeah, I started the, you know, Midtown. And then we moved to Queens. You know, it's it's like, you see these two two people, they're in

00:13:19.14 JP Wow. 00:13:

25.62 Stan Lai And it ends, the scene ends very beautifully and she goes and that's it, you know. and And that's what, for some reason that scene is so powerful it's been

00:14:

07.93 Stan Lai I don't know what he's going to say. Okay. So let's go back and let's figure out the character. In other words, I always say this to my my students, my student 23.83 Stan Lai But if you are able to create the cause, then whatever effect comes from that cause is going to be great. it's going to be fine.

00:14:31.87 JP Hmm. 00:14:

32.79 Stan Lai So you don't, you stop thinking about what incredible effect you're trying to make, but start worrying about what is the cause of that effect. In other words,

00:14:42.44 JP Hmm. 00:14:

52.22 Stan Lai So basically that's my theory in a nutshell of how to use improvisation in acting and creating scripts. 00:15:01.62 So when you're, you don't storyboard by hand at all, you're not creating dialogue, you kind of, you do. 00:15:06.71 Stan Lai I do, I do, I do, I do. And nowadays I don't do much improvisation anymore, so I'm writing by myself. 00:15:12.57 JP i say 00:15:13.66 Stan Lai Yeah, so I use, I try to look for for tools online, but they never, from the days, of the early days, there was what, Mind something, there was a software

00:15:

27.13 Stan Lai And I was saying, wow, this is basically just what I do normally on my in my in my sketchbooks, you know, yeah. 00:15:31.64 JP

Right. Notepad. Yeah. 00:15:

34.45 Stan Lai And And what i've and what is what you're trying to do is to make into a diagram or a chart the very, very complicated thing that is a full length play.

00:15:

46.23 Stan Lai you know or And it could be a film, it could be you know a novel. 00:15:46.51 JP Hmm. 00:15:50.17 Stan Lai you it's so It's so large that you have to find a way to you know to to to to make it visible to your vision. Because it's a vision, you know, and if your

00:16:00.54 JP Hmm. 00:16:

06.17 Stan Lai You know, so that's why you need tools. You need tools to to let it like diagrams, like charts. And for me, what I do is they're all different for each

00:16:

32.57 JP And when you're creating like this, Dan, where does the viewer take take role? Are you constantly thinking to them, how are they going to interpret this? What 45.34 Stan Lai I don't think, you know, it it sounds like disrespectful, but I don't because it's, it's, it's a trap to think about what the audience wants. 00:16:50.04 JP

Yeah. 00:16:53.85 JP Yes. Right. 00:16:

56.48 Stan Lai You know, I think that's a very sort of Hollywood mentality or, you know, a Hollywood producer mentality is like, let's, you know, let's do what, you know,

00:16:57.03 JP Right. 00:17:

08.47 Stan Lai So let's sell the same thing, you know, and if you fall into that trap, you, might produce something that will sell, but it may not be very good because it's

00:17:21.36 JP Hmm. 00:17:

27.44 Stan Lai It doesn't really come from your soul. And and the great works of of art from from all of our history is stuff that comes straight from the soul. 00:17:29.84

Hmm. 00:17:

37.32 Stan Lai Nobody's copying anything. So yeah, i i I don't think about the audience when I'm writing but they're always in my mind, let's put it that way. 00:17:48.01 JP 48.52 Stan Lai It's like, I'm not, being in the theater, we have many colleagues in the theater, incredible artists, they don't give a crap about what the audience, you

00:17:59.39 JP Right. 00:18:

03.08 Stan Lai You know, it's like that kind of a very, you know, combative sort of stance that a lot of my colleagues have.

00:18:03.62 JP Hmm. Hmm. 00:18:

10.58 Stan Lai I don't have that, i'm I'm very user friendly. I think, I'm writing this for you, the audience. I hope hope I make it, you know, honestly, i make it a gift

00:18:24.60 Stan Lai That's what I'm trying to do. Yeah. 00:18:

27.73 JP I know like Quentin Tarantino has been been very vocal about that. like, I make movies for myself and you come watch if you want. You know, Rick Rubin, that you

00:18:

35.60 Stan Lai I don't believe that. I don't believe, because I really think he he has a definite link with his audience, you know, and 00:18:42.39 JP

He has a link. 00:18:

42.87 Stan Lai and he cares And he cares about them. 00:18:43.15 JP Yeah. 00:18:44.39 Stan Lai He does. 00:18:44.79 JP Interesting.

00:18:44.91 Stan Lai He does. 00:18:

45.51 JP Because Rick Rubin will say that too. 00:18:45.59 Stan Lai Yeah. Yeah. 00:18:47.47 JP Like the the listener comes last. I release what I really like, you know, and you're right. 00:18:52.43 Stan Lai Right. i 00:18:53.08 JP It is a trap.

00:18:

54.46 Stan Lai it Well, I can say that too. And it may sound that that's what I'm saying is it it sounds like we don't care about the audience.

00:19:02.82 JP It's terrible. Yeah, it's not the case. 00:19:

04.06 Stan Lai Yeah, but we do, you know, it's like, it's like, do, am I thinking about the audience when I'm writing? 00:19:05.01 JP Yeah. Yeah. Right. 00:19:08.98 Stan No, I'm not. You know, I'm thinking about what pleases me because, because the important thing that goes on stage is what can go through my eyes. 00:19:12.94

Right. 00:19:

17.27 Stan Lai It's like, I'm the final quality control. You're, you're not controlling my quality. I'm controlling But at the same time, at the very base of my, of my

00:19:

29.72 Stan Lai And so you can't say that I'm not thinking of you. It's just that when I'm making decisions, I'm not i'm i'm doing it based on meet what pleases me. And i 48.54 JP I guess, you know, and I have that too sometimes with the podcast too. I get people say, well, what about the audience? And I say, well, I want to... I want

00:20:18.68 Stan Lai That makes sense. 00:20:

19.09 JP Another way of saying it. 00:20:19.48 Stan Lai and and And also another way of putting it is, you know, that we, if you trust me, you come with me and I'm gonna take you somewhere that you may not never

00:20:26.52 JP Hmm. 00:20:29.64 JP Hmm. 00:20:

29.84 Stan Lai It's like a lot of my work is, many people call it ahead of its time. I would say it's slightly ahead of its time. I mean, if like, if I were Vincent van

00:20:

43.38 Stan Lai Or I think I sold, I think he I think he sold one to his brother, you know, but, 00:20:43.87 JP Hmm. 00:20:46.49 JP Right. 00:20:47.61

Stan Lai I mean, so sad because everyone loves Van Gogh, right? 00:20:

51.29 JP Yeah. 00:20:51.49 Stan Lai But if you're in the wrong era, if you if what you love is not what people love, you know what what you what can you do? 00:20:52.14 JP Yeah. 00:20:59.18 Stan Lai you know it's It's like, I'm very blessed that I'm in an age where my audience is with me. And i also think back at in history, like you have all these very

00:21:

16.73 Stan Lai And I mean, they were the greatest playwrights of their time, but you don't really hear much about them anymore. 00:21:22.94 JP Right. 23.02 Stan Lai You know, you hear you hear about Ibsen and Strindberg who didn't sell many tickets at at the box office, you know, necessarily. So it's a very interesting 36.15 Stan Lai I might take you somewhere beyond what you think. And I think that's good. You know, it's it's like my play, A Dream Like a Dream, which I'm going be 47.23 Stan Lai It's an eight hour play. And who goes to an eight hour play, right? But we announced the tickets last week and it sold out in and a few hours. you know so

00:21:56.06 JP Wow. 00:21:

56.73 Stan Lai And it's not cheap to to see this eight hour show. 00:21:59.19 JP Yeah. 00:21:59.80 Stan Lai

um And it's like people go and 00:22:00.00 JP Yeah. 00:22:

04.06 Stan Lai they're brought to a new place that is not really far. It's not totally far away from, you know, it's like maybe Joey, it's like if you're sitting on your couch

00:22:20.89 JP Right. 00:22:

24.44 JP Which people do all the time now. People, are what they binge series and on on the streaming services. 00:22:26.58 Stan

Exactly. 00:22:

29.36 JP So getting back to the process, Dan, you create characters, you're creating scenes. At what point does does it kind of take over? I always... I always hear

00:23:09.91 JP and give myself I'm giving myself chills. 00:23:

09.87 Stan Lai It's one of my favorite songs. 00:23:11.75 JP Give myself chills. 00:23:12.22

Stan Lai it 00:23:

12.71 JP And he never performed it again. He just felt it came to him, but it wasn't his. 00:23:17.74 Stan Lai that that's often the case oh yes yes yes it happens all the time when inspiration comes i've been doing it long enough like when it first started

00:23:17.85 JP do Do you feel that too sometimes? Wow. Wow. 00:23:

42.68 Stan Lai Nope, this isn't very good. 00:23:44.44 JP wow 00:23:44.44 Stan Lai You know, this is this is a bad inspiration day. it's ah it's ah It's a cheaty inspiration day. You know, you think it's good. It's not going to work. You get

00:23:

57.08 Stan Lai You know, um Keith Richard was at that point where you know what works and what doesn't work. And and and I explain in my book. that that was my best lesson in

00:24:15.87 JP Hmm. 00:24:

16.31 Stan Lai And this was when I was a student and I and i was saying, wow, that, I wasn't able to process that at the moment. like But i I said, yes, this is something I

00:24:35.48 Stan Lai Forget it. 00:24:35.61 JP Hmm. 00:24:

36.04 Stan Lai you know And when my students, if they give me ah an outline for for a nick for a play, I will look at it and I say, go for it. 00:24:36.63 JP Hmm. 00:24:42.84 Stan Lai Or I will look at it and say, hey, this is I'm sorry, this is never going to work. you know you're youre you know I remember many years ago in in Beijing, ah

00:25:06.94 JP yes 00:25:

06.97 Stan Lai And it sounds great. It sounds great. But I said, youre you you have not grabbed... the story by the horn, you don't know that all the details that

00:25:23.38 JP Wow. You mentioned your book, Creativere. 00:25:

27.16 Stan Lai Creativity is or how I would pronounce it. 00:25:28.52 JP

Curatoria tree, excuse me, of course, there's a T there. 00:25:

29.69 Stan Lai Yeah. I said it rhymes with artistry. Yeah. Chemistry. 00:25:33.38 JP

Artistry, creatures yeah. 00:25:33.42 Stan Lai Yeah. 00:25:

34.62 JP What do you want the reader to come away with? Why write the book now? 00:25:39.22 Stan Lai Well, you know, the book was originally in Chinese, was written 20 years ago 2006. It has sold a million copies in the Chinese world. 00:25:47.13 JP Wow.

00:25:

48.95 Stan Lai And people are actually developing a curriculum, a department of creativity. Eight universities are now doing a department of creativity based on my book.

00:25:58.85 JP Wow. 00:26:

01.30 Stan Lai So I've i've always wanted to put it into English. It's just that I'm just working so hard on new new work that Finally, in the last five years, I said,

00:26:

13.36 Stan Lai I'm not goingnna put it through some machine and and make it into English. That's not gonna work. I'm gonna rewrite this whole thing word by word, also 28.57 Stan Lai And so we have this book called Creativity Tree. And what I want the readers to get from this is that the first thing is that You are a creative being. 42.62 Stan Lai Creativity is in you from the moment you're born. You have it, all of us have it. none I will not deny anyone. Everyone has creativity. The problem is we have 58.52 Stan Lai And block it from childhood. Our parents do it to us, our schools do it to us. 00:27:02.59 JP Wow. 00:27:03.83 Stan Lai Even though they love us, they do it to us. And how do we unblock this thing? this beautiful energy of creativity. This is what the book explains and it's

00:27:

35.45 Stan Lai you can actually see what's going on. it's like It's like if if we were now equipped with an instant replay, you know if like the inspiration for Secret 49.80 Stan Lai It's like, Joey, it's like, you know what do you call it? Coach's challenge in the NFL, right? on the nfl in the nfl right When did the guy go out of bounds?

00:27:58.26 JP Right. Hmm. 00:27:

59.86 Stan Lai Okay, you frame by frame and then you see, okay, this is a this is a completed cache. Okay, for inspiration when it comes, my point is that if you slow it down

00:28:

23.58 Stan Lai Everything comes from you. Everything comes from inside you. If you slow it down a enough, you say, oh, this character came from that day at that coffee shop 41.62 Stan Lai you know And oh, this character came just from reading the newspaper yesterday. You can see how all these these things are coming into your mind. And your mind 53.85 Stan Lai process all these things and create, I would call it pulling from different files to create a new file. And that new file is your project, is your created

00:29:

05.08 Stan Lai So if my audience if my readers can take that away from my book, I'm very happy. 00:29:11.86 JP What do you think kill, you mentioned schools and kind of the environment, but what what are some other real killers that get in the way of creativity that we 20.25 Stan Lai Well, the the obvious ones are when you're trying to do something creative and then someone says, you know, you know Joey, don't sing, you can't sing.

00:29:31.34 JP Hmm. 00:29:

31.29 Stan Lai you know and that Those are the obvious ones. But the more subtle ones are the fact that you have to realize that there are so many labels stuck on things

00:29:

43.35 Stan Lai And to be creative, you have to take away labels. you know's So like this is a podcast. Okay, what's a podcast? Why is there a label called podcast to put on

00:29:57.91 Stan Lai Or can we call it a dialogue? 00:29:

59.54 JP Conversation? 00:29:59.62 Stan Lai Or can we call it a conversation? 00:30:00.18 JP Yeah.

00:30:01.38 Stan Lai Or what is it? 00:30:01.90 JP Yeah. 00:30:

02.06 Stan Lai you know It's two minds ah blending. you know If you can take away that one label, then you're liberated to do other things. 00:30:12.66 JP Hmm. Hmm.

00:30:

12.92 Stan Lai So if you can see that, everything you see in life has a label on. it and And why? Why are these things? I mean, it's a car. That's a car. That's an airplane. 25.80 Stan Lai It's just different stuff that's coming together to make these things, you know. 00:30:25.97 JP Hmm. 00:30:29.59 Stan Lai and And we all have labels, and and then we all have likes and dislikes. and Oh, I hate that. Oh, I hate. Oh, I love that, you know. and And hating and loving is 41.05 Stan Lai So if you're really creative, you're not hating or loving anything. You're just looking at it. You're just... You're just chilling, you know, you're looking at 58.68 Stan Lai and and then and then the inspiration comes, you know. That's my experience basically. 00:31:06.58 JP Is your favorite project always the one you currently work on? Do you go back and say i that when I did 30 years ago, I should have changed a little bit? All

00:31:

18.84 Stan Lai Sometimes I do that, but I'm basically, you know, we're, we're in the business where the the opening night comes and, and that's it. You know, it's like, if

00:31:27.80 JP right. 00:31:

33.74 Stan Lai Because then that your hotel is, you know, the next day you're not, you're not allowed to live in that hotel anymore.

00:31:38.62 JP Wow. 00:31:

38.89 Stan Lai Unless you pay your, yeah and you're gone. Your plane ticket is for, you know, but, 00:31:41.24 JP Wow. 00:31:43.77 Stan Lai i My own work, like I recently opened a new play called Descent in Taipei just a few weeks ago. um And I'm still tinkering with it. And I can, even in Secret

00:31:

58.94 Stan Lai But if I don't get to revisit it in performance, I don't think about it. You know, it's like, okay, it's done. And, you know, of course, in our in our

00:32:

18.74 Stan Lai You know, this scene should have been shot with a different angle or I should have, why didn't I cover that scene? 00:32:18.89 JP Right. 24.46 Stan Lai Blah, blah, blah. You just hate yourself for things you didn't do. But at the same time, you can't regret it. You know, you can't regret it. 00:32:35.00 JP Yeah, i I specifically have a real problem, Stan, with me. ah you know I've done over 800 of these now, and I think I've watched maybe a half one. I can't i 45.72 JP i The voice it just does something, and i I do some kind of squinting thing when I'm listening. I can't watch myself. So, I mean, I have a hard problem just

00:32:56.31 Stan Lai But why? Why? You're great, Joey. 00:32:

59.36 JP There's no bigger critic than myself. 00:32:59.54 Stan Lai No, no, no, no, no. 00:33:00.72

JP I should have asked that. 00:33:

00.74 Stan Lai I think you're too critical. I think you're too critical of yourself. 00:33:02.58 JP Perhaps. There's no bigger critic than me But my point to that is there are certain musicians who won't play, you know, they won't play their music that

00:33:

13.82 JP Even though that's the hit and that's the reason why everybody came, they just they just won't do it. You still go back and look at those things fondly, but 24.60 Stan Lai Yeah, it's like I just got a letter from Athens, an email saying they would like to perform one of my plays from 15 years ago. 00:33:31.35

JP Wow. 00:33:

33.88 Stan Lai And I said, sure, that's great. you know but But if they do it, i would like to have I would like to have one more crack at that script you know and and do and

00:33:43.10 JP Ah. 00:33:

45.69 Stan Lai But back to what you were saying, Joey, you're great because... 00:33:47.80 JP Interesting. Yeah. 00:33:50.23 Stan Lai there's no There's no other way to gauge this but to say, what are your what are your guests saying? you know And what you've been doing today is you've been

00:33:57.85 JP Hmm. 00:34:

02.07 Stan Lai I mean, I do so many interviews you know for my plays all all these years. I've said a lot of things I've never said before today. you know and And I think,

00:34:10.94 JP Hmm. 00:34:

12.66 Stan Lai it's It's you. You're making me comfortable. You're asking the right questions. you know So please, don't be so don't don't be so hard on yourself. 00:34:20.18 JP I appreciate that. And I'm working on taking compliments. I really, ah really do appreciate that. And like, how do you know you got the right actor for the role?

00:34:

33.05 Stan Lai You often don't. you know and often And often I work with the person who is not the right actor. 00:34:34.30 JP Really? 00:34:38.46

Stan Lai that's That's life. you know that is 00:34:

39.51 JP What happens then? 00:34:41.11 Stan Lai what What happens then is you, with your skills, with my skills as a director, I make him work. I let him work. I let him be What's the word? 00:34:54.22

Stan Lai Functional in the role. 00:34:55.05 JP Wow. 00:34:

56.09 Stan Lai Yeah. And he may not be great, but at least he will function. It's like ah a play of mine called a Go. Actually, that the poster there is a five and a half

00:35:

12.47 Stan Lai and they all just light up the play like it never had been before, which means I didn't have the right actress before. 00:35:16.15 JP Wow. 18.07 Stan Lai and And so, fine, you know, it's like, this is, it's a live thing. It's not like theater, you know, theater is live. It's like, it's always living, you know, so 36.25 Stan Lai And that's the way, that's the way our lives are. in the theater. because We live with that. Which means also it could be negative.

00:35:43.92 JP Hmm 00:35:

46.07 Stan Lai you know You could have a disaster happening in the theater tonight. you know or or Or you could have something wonderful happening. And the audience is rather

00:36:

09.82 JP Describe the audiences between America and Shanghai and Taipei. 00:36:14.99 Stan Lai Taipei, yeah. 00:36:15.86 JP Yeah. 00:36:18.29 Stan Lai Oh, I think audiences are audiences. um We are all human beings. we My work so far has resonated on both East and West. 00:36:29.23 JP Amazing. 00:36:29.75 Stan Lai You know, every single city will be different. you know Like if I'm in Taipei in Taiwan, that's different from Gaoshong in Taiwan. 00:36:33.01 JP Hmm. 38.28 Stan Lai okay If I'm in Shanghai, it's different from Beijing. okay so So the audiences in Beijing will be a little more quieter and they'll and and they'll save all of 55.38 Stan Lai and In Shanghai, they might be chattering to themselves, you know, saying, you know, saying, oh, this guy is that other, you know, they're explaining the the

00:37:00.31 JP Wow. 00:37:05.54 JP Wow. 00:37:

05.89 Stan Lai you know yeah and and And then there's a warmth you know to the audiences in Shanghai, the audiences in Taipei. I was in Taipei just a few weeks ago with

00:37:

20.57 Stan Lai And I was so moved at the end when there was this thunderous applause for the for the opening premiere. And I'm going, because we don't hear that anymore in

00:37:36.25 JP really 00:37:

36.47 Stan Lai of the curtain call. you know when the when the when the audience When the cast comes on for the curtain call, the audience, is you can't clap with one hand,

00:38:

00.54 Stan Lai this is for the cast this is for the creators of the show and and They clap their hearts out. 00:38:05.46 JP Wow. 00:38:07.83 Stan Lai you know it's It's interesting how the digital age has changed things in a subtle way. 00:38:14.18 JP Just watching. 00:38:14.18 Stan Lai yeah 00:38:15.93 yeah That's fair to say because certainly a New York audience is going to be different from a Los Angeles audience, right? I mean, very different type of you 39.26 Stan Lai Oh, I think there's a total there's a total lack of confidence in creativity. 00:38:49.21 JP Hmm. 00:38:49.56 Stan Lai That's the way I feel. i I've spent a little time in LA. One of my daughters lives there. And my son-in-law is a filmmaker. And i i realized that there is

00:39:

06.26 Stan Lai I think Hollywood has gotten more creative in a way. There's so many brilliant, talented people there, but they're not taking any

00:39:09.36 JP Hmm. 00:39:

15.60 Stan Lai They're not, they're not, they're going with what they think is safe. 00:39:16.01 JP Hmm. 00:39:19.54 Stan Lai And what they think is safe is not decided by any artist or any, or any script or anything, but by numbers, you know? And and I think this is like a demon for

00:39:

35.96 Stan Lai You know, what is that? What what do you call that? what What happened to our own discretion on everything? 00:39:40.69 JP that art. 41.98 Stan Lai Right. And about everything, you know, even about the milk you drink or or whatever, you know, are you drinking the best milk you can or are you having the 58.49 Stan Lai And our societies are all being affected by this. 00:40:03.50 JP I heard you say in an interview, Stan, you asked a composer, I think it was, and you asked him, how's the talent these days? And he said, the talent is

00:40:11.11 Stan Lai Right. 00:40:14.62 Stan Lai Exactly. 00:40:

15.46 JP But the creativity is lost because it's a bit squashed because it's after these numbers and people don't want to take chances. 00:40:20.31 Stan Lai His exact words were, the fingers are incredible, but where is the music? 00:40:23.54 JP Right. That's right. That's what you said. Where's the music?

00:40:

26.52 Stan Lai And that's like, you know, I mean, Keith Richards didn't have the greatest fingers, right? 00:40:26.79 JP Yeah. Yeah. 00:40:30.90 JP

00:40:32.31 Stan Lai ah But he had the music. 00:40:

32.60 JP Still doesn't. Yes, he does. 00:40:33.71 Stan Lai Yeah. 00:40:34.80 JP Yeah, yes, he does. Yeah.

00:40:36.47 Stan Lai yeah Even Dylan. 00:40:

36.56 JP Yeah, that's a, right. 00:40:38.27 Stan Lai Dylan didn't play much guitar or harmonica and not the greatest voice, but the music was music was the greatest. 00:40:41.40 JP

Not the greatest voice. Right. The music was there. Yeah. 00:40:

47.54 Stan Lai Yeah. 00:40:48.33 JP There's a big difference there. And movies certainly always wanted to make money, but not at the kind of degree and philosophy that we see now. 00:40:50.45

Stan Lai Yeah. 00:40:

57.69 JP um Is artificial intelligence hurting or helping? Art. 00:41:03.35 Stan Lai My personal individual point of view is that it's heard in art. If you're gonna use, I mean, you can use AI for like, I don't know, Joey, maybe setting up this

00:41:08.50 JP Hmm. 00:41:16.72 JP Hmm. 00:41:

19.54 Stan Lai But if you're gonna, you know, once the a a journalist in Shanghai at the Uzen Festival came to me and said, hey Stan, I asked AI to write a play ah based on

00:41:

35.48 Stan Lai you know So ah a work that mimics Stan Lai's plays. And I said, and? And he she showed me. you know was it was I must say it wasn't very interesting. So, of 50.52 Stan Lai But i my feeling is that AI can... write songs, it can write plays, and I'm sure they will be passable work. I mean, if they were in a classroom, they would get

00:42:

12.86 Stan Lai At least this day we're speaking. I don't i don't see it. 00:42:18.78 JP You mentioned before, Stan, that everybody has creativity. Are we born with a certain amount with it, you think? Or you think is it is it learned, or is it is

00:42:29.69 Stan Lai were born with it 00:42:31.26 JP Everyone. 00:42:

31.23 Stan Lai born the the everyone and it's boundless it's boundless and the thing is is the the amount you get is depends on how much you can unblock how much you can

00:42:47.64 JP And that is the big thing. 00:42:

52.34 Stan Lai I was on the street in Shanghai and I saw this mother bringing her five-year-old boy around. And the boy looked at the sky and said, Mama, look at the dog. And

00:43:

09.50 Stan Lai And I didn't know these people, so I would i wasn't able to say anything, right? 00:43:11.13 JP Wow. 00:43:12.94 Stan Lai And they and then they they left. And um I was so sad. I was saying, wow, that boy is that boy is never gonna see a dog in the sky again. 00:43:17.45 JP Right,

00:43:21.78 JP right. 00:43:

22.46 Stan Lai You know, and and these are the things that add up, you know, and just a little instant like that, you know, maybe you to your own kids, you will be saying

00:43:

34.62 Stan Lai You have to find some way to get them to do something or some way to limit them to do something. And at that time, you what you're doing also is limiting their 47.77 Stan Lai But it's what we do all the time, unfortunately. it's the the life is built sort of that way is that we're all creative we all lose it how do we get it back some

00:44:06.95 JP see. i say 00:44:

22.23 JP That is a real sad story, Stan. 00:44:24.66 Stan Lai oh my god 00:44:24.90 JP I remember going to my daughter when she was in eighth grade. My daughter's very creative. Straight A student, by the way. We were at the parent-teacher meeting,

00:44:

35.14 JP She looks out you know and looks outside very often. you know Maybe there's something we could do about that. There's drugs that she could take. And I said 45.94 JP I will continue to encourage her to look outside. this is Let her... do what she wants to do. if she was failing everything, that would be a very, but she, she

00:45:

01.11 Stan Lai Joey, let me give you a little story. I was back in Washington, D.C. where I was born last year. 00:45:05.82 JP Yeah. 00:45:06.98 hadn't i hadn't visited in many years. And I was back at the apartment where i where i grew up. And I'm looking for this little sort of hill next to it. I 21.38 Stan Lai In those days, I walked home to school. I was five years old, six years old. And I would just lie down on that hill and look at the clouds and just stare stare

00:45:28.98 JP Wow. 00:45:

31.06 Stan Lai for who knows how long, because I had the key. I had the key on my necklace. My parents weren't home. I could go home anytime. But please tell your daughter

00:45:44.92 JP h 00:45:

45.50 Stan Lai And i don't I didn't hear any teacher saying, don't do that, Stan. you know 00:45:52.12 JP Yeah, terrible. 00:45:52.15

Stan Lai I don't know. 00:45:

54.90 Stan Lai Yeah, this you see how how how, yes, and exactly, 00:45:57.27 JP Just like that mother you saw in Shanghai.

00:46:

01.08 Stan Lai How easily people can just give you wrong advice, you know, and say, you shouldn't be looking outside the window. 00:46:04.34 JP

Squash it, yeah. 00:46:

06.90 Stan Lai Why shouldn't I be looking outside the window? 00:46:08.54 JP yeah 00:46:09.21 Stan Lai Because you're not, apparently, you're not concentrating on the class, you know. But she's straight A's, so who's not concentrating on the class, right?

00:46:

18.90 JP Apparently she could do both. And so ah creativity comes also in many forms. 00:46:20.63 Stan Lai ah 00:46:24.66 JP We're talking about music. We're talking about playwright. We're talking about women. 00:46:27.00 Stan Lai sure 00:46:27.58 JP But sure, anybody can, there's so many outlets. There's painting, there's drawing, there's there's even in in some of the work, plumbers and you know 38.22 JP And there's you know i would i was programming for a while and developing and I thought that was a very artistic way of being able to communicate to the

00:46:49.83 JP We can't forget that. 00:46:

51.51 Stan Lai Well, Joey, you move into a ah difficult topic because not only are there many layers and there wonderful layers, but you can also move to the dark side with

00:47:03.54 JP The dark side. 00:47:09.58 JP Hmm. 00:47:

15.98 Stan Lai beeper phones to as bombs. 00:47:17.46 JP Right. 00:47:18.17 Stan Lai you know And the New York Times, I remember they that the title was something like creativity. There was creativity in the title for that. It's like amazing

00:47:

30.75 Stan Lai And I'm thinking, wow, when we talk about like generals, 00:47:31.18 JP Hmm. 00:47:34.48 Stan Lai like even from the Trojan War or whatever, we talk about how brilliant all these people were. Hey, they were brilliant at killing people. So if you think about 48.11 Stan Lai So the question is, if you want to channel your creativity, you really have to ask yourself, why? Why do I want to do this? what Of course, you you don't need

00:48:

01.69 Stan Lai But in the end, if you're there's no problem You know, you're just you're just doing it and you're enriching yourself. But if you're doing it for a public, you 13.53 Stan Lai Why am I doing this? And if the answer is simply ah paycheck, you know, then you're going with what your boss wants you to do.

JP Very important point. 00:48:20.92 JP Hmm. 00:48:

20.98 Stan Lai But if you're really trying to do something from your soul, then what is it? And why why does it need to be public? You know, these are the tough questions I ask

00:48:28.12 JP Hmm. 00:48:

31.26 Stan Lai Because you can't say that these people who are making war machines and stuff aren't creative. 00:48:37.22 JP Hmm.

00:48:

38.71 Stan Lai They're they're there demonically creative. And that's the problem, yeah, is that it can go either way. 00:48:42.26 JP interesting 46.38 Stan Lai I remember I was in Prague one year ah and I was at the the graduation ceremony for PhD students at Charles University. 00:48:59.13 Stan Lai And I was so moved when the person making the speech said, okay, now we're going to give you your diplomas, your PhDs. Now you will have to all take a vow.

00:49:

11.54 Stan Lai They all vowed that everything they learned as PhDs, and this is a vow that comes up from a thousand years ago, is to be used for the good of humankind. And

00:49:24.31 JP Yeah. 00:49:28.33 JP Yes, certainly. 00:49:

29.59 Stan Lai Yeah, it's double edged. 00:49:32.41 JP Very good point. Very good point, Stan. The most difficult part about writing a play is what? 00:49:40.28 Stan Lai Oh, it's so large that, and it has so many components that you can't keep track of it. 00:49:46.02 JP Huh. 00:49:46.86 Stan Lai It's like you're in ah you're trying to build a forest and you're working only on a leaf of a tree, you know? And so how how to grasp the whole forest, that is

00:49:

58.71 Stan Lai craft of the playwright. Yeah. and and And when you just start, I mean, even in school, you're probably writing scenes, you're writing dialogues, and those are

00:50:

24.31 Stan Lai How you gonna control that? That's what's hard about it. 00:50:29.11 JP I asked earlier, Stan, about the actors, if they're the wrong actors. Should writers often be directors as well, or should they be separate? 00:50:39.03 Stan Lai depends totally on the person. I direct all the work I write and I consider it one job. 00:50:42.33 JP You do. 00:50:44.70 Stan Lai You see, to me, it's like writing and directing is one thing because the final the final product is not on paper. 00:50:46.29 JP Hmm. 00:50:50.52 Stan Lai The final product is on stage. know so So I'm in charge of that thing on stage. When I'm writing in my computer or on paper, That's just for rehearsal purposes.

00:51:

03.13 Stan Lai In the end, the musical score is not the music. It's the performance itself that's important. So if I were a composer, I'd also demand to be the conductor.

00:51:14.07 Stan Lai So, yeah. 00:51:

16.38 JP And the role of the director is what? 00:51:16.44 Stan Lai But, oh, everything, you know, everything that happens that you see on, if if you're watching a play, Whenever, whatever the lights go on, the sound comes in,

00:51:

43.93 Stan Lai Everything you see is controlled by the director. 00:51:47.93 JP I remember once we ah seeing an interview with Gary Oldman, a great great great actor. And he was in ah um Dark Knight Returns, like ah the one of the famous

00:51:53.55 Stan Lai Yes. 00:51:

59.48 JP But Gary had a dialogue. And the director said to him and just a couple sentences, do it again. It's more urgent. And so Goldman said, that's incredible

00:52:

12.18 JP That's incredible direction because I understood what he meant and I was able to continue. So the director has to really simplify it, work with each actor 23.45 Stan Lai Sounds, I mean, it sounds a little bit like what I would say because I like to be very simple when I talk to actors. 00:52:29.82 JP Hmm. 30.44 Stan Lai like Sometimes it's just a matter of pacing. I say, hey, slow that down. 00:52:35.74 JP Hmm. 00:52:35.74 Stan Lai That line has to be slow. And i don't need to explain what that means psychologically. the actor will say, oh, okay, oh, I get it, i get it. 45.62 Stan Lai And and it also they suddenly are able to assimilate what happened before what happened again, and this line is slow. 00:52:46.17 JP Hmm. 52.66 Stan Lai you know So often it's it's a it's it's a huge puzzle of rhythms and tempos and things in not only acting, 00:53:04.60 Stan Lai But all the technical things that happen, like the lighting, projections, music, everything, know that's that's what you have to, like, I'm just thinking back at

00:53:

17.74 Stan Lai And the big question was, do you want to show do you want a curtain at the beginning? Do you want the curtain to be in or out? 00:53:22.08

JP Hmm. 00:53:

24.20 Stan Lai you know And so these little things, they're all they're all up to me. 00:53:24.89 JP Wow. 00:53:28.88 JP Wow. 00:53:29.14 Stan and And back to your question, though, um I don't think every writer is suited to do that. 00:53:29.24 JP What did you decide? Yeah. 00:53:34.42 Stan Lai

You have to have a certain disposition, right? 00:53:35.57 JP Ah. 00:53:

39.28 JP Yeah, because I've heard of some sets where the writers are showing up and they just end up kind of being a nuisance a little bit. And who knows if it's true or

00:53:46.79 Stan Lai Yeah. 00:53:

48.33 JP But I think King, the writer, was kind of notorious for that, right? He didn't like a lot of the movies because Stephen King, yeah, didn't represent the book

00:53:54.81 Stan Lai Stephen King? Yeah. Uh-huh. 00:53:

58.76 JP And yeah, I could have that wrong. I could certainly have that wrong. 00:54:03.70 Stan Lai Well, they all have, there's always in contracts now it's written, you can't do this, you can you can't be on the set or whatever, yeah. 00:54:04.04 JP So has their vision changed? Right, right. You have the role. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:54:11.10 Stan Lai Right. 00:54:12.44 JP Fascinating. Is there something, Stan, that you believed really deeply, deeply 10 years ago that you no longer believe now? 00:54:23.77 Stan Lai What a good question. Not really. i think I've been fairly consistent all my life. oh 00:54:31.90 Stan Lai You know, it's just things that deepen as as I grow older, you know, like the like um what I was just saying, I have no regrets, you know, and and you can

00:54:36.22 JP Hmm. 00:54:

45.09 Stan Lai But then when you get older, you say, am I really not regretting my life? Can I stop now? When is enough enough? um deep The realization deepens the fact that I

00:55:07.58 JP Hmm 00:55:

08.60 Stan Lai In other words, no story is greater than any other story. In other words, if you're if you're looking at what's happening like on the streets of Minneapolis

00:55:

22.58 Stan Lai Well, look outside your window like your daughter is and maybe you're seeing a flash of sunshine. And that is no less a content matter. for a beautiful play. 34.30 Stan Lai you know So, you know I could say that 10 years ago, I was a big advocate of all things are equal in terms of creativity, but now I have a deeper realization of 45.14 Stan Lai and i would And I would say I would be able to write a play out of our dialogue today, you know a podcast starts you know a play starts with a podcast, or or

00:55:45.20 JP Hmm. Hmm. 00:55:54.24 JP Wow. Hmm. 00:56:

03.10 Stan Lai I have a deeper realization of of the things that I believed in. And I think, thank you for your question because I realize I'm blessed that I don't have to

00:56:

14.90 JP Is there a question, Stan, you wish more people would ask you? 00:56:23.90 Stan Lai What a good question. What a good question. um You know, I would just like people to know me more as I am, you know, because when, I mean, I'm not i'm not

00:56:46.10 JP Wow. 00:56:

47.54 Stan Lai So um I just, when people, when I walk by people, let's say at the Wuzhen Theater Festival, which I helped to found, and people say, oh, that's Stan Lai.

00:57:

00.82 Stan Lai And so they would be pointing like Joey, if someone was right next to you, that's Joey Hins. And it's like, I don't exist as a person. you know it'ss It's

00:57:09.18 JP Interesting. 00:57:15.97 JP Hmm. Hmm. 00:57:

20.38 Stan Lai Yeah, that, yeah. 00:57:23.19 JP So say I started my my company back in the 90s and I was working way too hard and not paying attention to myself. i was in my 20s. I felt I was invincible and

00:57:

37.18 JP The next thing I know, I'm in front of the doctor and she tells me I'm at 340 pounds. so i had gained i gained all the yeah it gained all this.

00:57:42.58 Stan Lai Wow, no way. No way. 00:57:

45.68 JP term I knew I was getting, I'm six six feet. 00:57:45.85 Stan Lai

how How tall are you, Joey? Okay, all right. 00:57:

48.84 JP Yeah. So I knew that I was getting out of shape. Didn't know it was that bad. But the next thing rocked my world that she said, if you don't lose this weight,

00:58:

01.98 JP So it it, you know, instead of motivating, it angered me, right? 00:58:02.04 Stan Lai Wow. Wow. 00:58:06.50 JP So I'm driving home, punching the steering wheel, right? This is my pie hole, Stan. I did this to myself. It's much bigger than me. I can abuse myself all I 16.74 JP I have this beautiful daughter that somehow I'm responsible for bringing into this world. And i have to look beyond myself and stop being so selfish. So I

00:59:

00.18 Stan Lai Oh, oh, thank you for the story. Very, very inspiring. Wow, you did that in six months? My God, that's that's unheard of. 00:59:07.03 JP

Six, seven months, yeah Kept it off, yeah. 00:59:

08.70 Stan Lai you It's unheard of. You know, it's you must... You have incredible discipline. You know, there's something called discipline and there's something also called

00:59:18.74 JP Hmm. 00:59:

18.71 Stan Lai And I think you need stamina to have discipline, at least in our business. You know, like I often get requests for like, you know, even from friends who say,

00:59:

34.84 Stan Lai And they don't last two days, you know because they can't keep up with us. you know Because our work is our work is it's like you know very, very intense work, 59.45 Stan Lai but I have to be on like for whatever kind of duration that I'm working. 00:59:59.73 JP Hmm. 01:00:04.21 Stan Lai So it's the same if I'm shooting a film. you know it's like It's so intense. And I think there's something to do with discipline and intensity. 01:00:15.14 Stan Lai you know i don't I don't know if you've explored that before, but there's something to do with stamina and discipline. 01:00:18.94 JP Tensity.

01:00:

19.86 Stan Lai If you don't have stamina, it's hard to be disciplined. 01:00:23.78 JP Hmm. 01:00:23.93 Stan Lai

Now, the discipline to direct a play, I have, and I know, 01:00:

27.44 JP Hmm. 01:00:29.11 Stan Lai and And another very important thing about that is that you have to know you just don't work, work, work, work. work That's not how you how you succeed.

01:00:36.11 JP Hmm. 01:00:37.82 Stan Lai You have to plan it. 01:00:

37.91 JP Hmm. 01:00:38.94 Stan Lai You have to know that if if a play is a meal that needs to be cooked, this meal takes a certain amount of time to be able to be cooked. When you start preparing

01:00:

53.14 Stan Lai Because it's not done. You're just starting to chop. You're just chopping your vegetables now. You're you're not, you you haven't even heated your pan. you

01:01:11.37 JP Wow. 01:01:

12.73 Stan Lai But two weeks from now, it's gonna look different and you will be able to set your goal on how it's supposed to look two weeks from now. and And that,

01:01:

23.60 Stan Lai It's like if you're losing weight and you're saying, wow, this is so unencouraging, like i I didn't lose much, but a month later, have a look at me 34.46 Stan Lai and you And you know, as ah as a director, I know what it takes to make the play look better in two weeks and then look great in four weeks and then be able to

01:01:44.59 JP Hmm. 01:01:49.43 Stan Lai So you need to discipline. 01:01:

49.51 JP Hmm. 01:01:51.90 Stan Lai to stop and say, wait, wait, wait, i why why am I shouting at the actors? that You know, we're we're we just started. They're not supposed to be accomplished

01:02:

03.90 Stan Lai You know, the whole place is so is not supposed to be totally done now. 01:02:09.09 JP Hmm. 01:02:09.11 Stan Lai So you have to know the stages of what you're doing and then stay disciplined to have your have your objectives on each stage of what you're trying to 21.37 JP I hear you say stamina, but I also hear patience, although you didn't say that word. 01:02:25.30 Stan Lai if You're right, you're right, you're right. What I'm saying is just a is patience needs discipline, you know, because we're often, you know, the popular

01:02:33.23 JP Yeah. 01:02:

43.58 JP right it would blowhho with a horn Right. With the Yeah. yeah 01:02:46.71 Stan Lai but That's not me, you know, i'm i'm I'm known for being very quiet or very just, Even if I see serious problems, I know that shouting isn't going to solve

01:02:

59.28 Stan Lai you know So I find you know there's also a discipline there to not blow your top, to be patient and then say, let's figure out how to do this. 01:02:59.51 JP

Hmm. 01:03:

08.64 Stan Lai And so I will start talking with an actor, you know and then figuring out why the actor is doing what he or she is doing, and then finding the ways to create

01:03:

24.98 Stan Lai So it's ah it's a sophisticated dance and you have 01:03:32.57 JP I remember hearing stories about Clint Eastwood directing and he would never yell action. He would just kind of turn his fingers like this, you know, just, 48.60 JP your your next and was patience instilled in your, in your, I'm sorry. I said, patience. how Isn't that interesting? I meant to say discipline was discipline

01:03:56.67 Stan Lai No, 01:03:

59.24 JP i let you be creative, but was it talked about? Was it exemplified? 01:04:03.32 Stan Lai no and neither of them were in creative arts or anything. My dad was a diplomat. 01:04:07.48 JP Interesting. 01:04:08.13 Stan Lai

My mom was a homekeeper. And later she worked as a secretary. 01:04:

11.33 JP Wow. 01:04:14.81 Stan Lai My dad passed very, very early. And I saw that discipline in my mom, that she didn't, you know, she didn't break down. 01:04:20.64 JP Hmm. 01:04:23.66 Stan She didn't, you know, she was so, i mean, strength. Now, discipline and strength, is there and is there a line we can draw between those two?

Hmm. Hmm. 01:04:

31.20 Stan Lai You know, it's like she continued, she She had not been working for many years and then suddenly when my dad got sick with cancer, she started working again.

01:04:

43.51 Stan Lai And as kids were saying, what why is mom working? you know And then my dad passed, you see? So she had it all planned out. you know so

01:04:53.77 JP Wow. 01:04:

54.01 Stan Lai and And she never said anything. it's It's like, wow, you know to to have the strength to do that you know, that teaches you more than anything that she could

01:05:05.88 JP Mm. Mm. Hmm. 01:05:

25.82 Stan Lai we don't talk about because we don't need to. It's it's something like, you know, of course you you need discipline. I think I was born with a fair amount

01:05:

36.01 Stan Lai You know, I'm able to con... Discipline has anything to do with concentration. 01:05:41.00 JP Mm-hmm. 01:05:41.91 Stan Lai i think i think I'm very good at that. And to be an intensely concentrated, that's probably a gift of mine gift of many people in the arts or whatever, to

01:06:

06.49 Stan Lai So I don't know, I guess I guess i got that. my My dad was a very disciplined guy. um i would I would watch and marvel, when i would after school I would go

01:06:23.59 JP Hmm. 01:06:

24.47 Stan Lai And there would be this pile of documents that he had to go through before he would take me home. And I would watch him intensely concentrated on the

01:06:

47.01 Stan Lai And he would use his brush and write his comments in English with his calligraphy brush. And I'm going, wow, you know, this is, it's like, you know,

01:07:03.53 JP Hmm. 01:07:05.82 JP Amazing. 01:07:

07.67 Stan Lai In different languages, by the way. 01:07:08.09 JP Absolutely. Yeah, right. Being able to bounce between the two. Yeah. What motivates you now, Stan? 01:07:12.28 Stan Lai Right. 01:07:14.33 JP

What's your motivation? 01:07:

16.18 Stan Lai My motivation is to be a ah benefit to people. 01:07:20.84 JP Hmm. 01:07:21.02 Stan Lai Meaning, if I'm writing a new play, if it's just for myself, forget it. I don't i don't need i don't need that. you know I really think if I can be, if my book

01:07:

36.04 Stan Lai is of use to people, it's not it's not there to show off. I don't need to show off. I have enough on my resume to not have to add anything all my life. you 49.88 Stan Lai And I think at this stage in my career, I think um I see myself more as a bridge, you know, like a bridge between East and West, or even between Taiwan

01:08:00.96 JP Hmm Hmm Hmm 01:08:

04.68 Stan Lai You know, I mean, that's that's that's what I look at myself as. I don't need to accomplish anything more, but I do hope that I can be of use and benefit to

01:08:

17.88 JP So I hear you say impact. You want to be positive impact. So yeah, benefit, right? 01:08:23.19 Stan Lai Positive, yes. in a Benefit, yeah. 26.57 JP So given that motivation of, like you say, of being a benefit of and impact, how do you measure success? 01:08:26.58 Stan Lai you know Yeah, you measure success by your motivation, basically. that's That's what I talk about a lot in the book, because motivation has a lot to do with

01:08:50.67 JP Hmm. 01:09:

10.04 Stan Lai The reader was so touched by the book and said that this is more also about life, it's about creativity. 01:09:16.52

Hmm. 01:09:

17.47 Stan Lai So the reader said that they should go back and and learn lessons in life, basically, in order to be more creative. And that's basically what the book is

01:09:30.07 JP What is the role of a critic in art? 01:09:

34.39 Stan Lai ha You know the the nasty lines, don't you? if you can't do it meaning you can't create, you teach. 01:09:45.46 JP Yeah, he teaches. 01:09:45.50 Stan Lai And if you can't teach, you become a critic. That's, I'm sorry, that's kind of nasty. 01:09:51.11 JP They're low on the pole. 01:09:51.78 Stan Lai that's That's very, very nasty. I'm sorry I said that. But I think critics are very, you know, there's a whole spectrum of critics. 01:10:02.16 JP

Yes, certainly. 01:10:

02.20 Stan Lai You know, some... some are really talented, brilliant, and are very helpful to the the reader or the audience. Some, they're always bit into themselves.

01:10:

16.45 Stan Lai and and And I think I like critics school arden who aren't those, like, they're trying to tell you how much they like ah a film or they don't like a film. 28.10 Stan Lai It's like they're more important than the film. You know, sometimes that that happens. 01:10:30.31 JP Right. 01:10:31.62 Stan Lai But I think Critics are very helpful if they really show their knowledge about the medium they're talking about and they are really able to give you an 45.66 Stan Lai know So they're important to society that you need them. you know But in these days, Joey, anyone can be a critic, right? you can anything you can write on

01:11:

06.81 JP They do have a role and it's really up to them and how they use or abuse it. I guess is what you're saying. 01:11:11.95 Stan Lai it's it's like anything in our society these days there are there's a role and then there's very very wonderful people who do it and then there's amateurs and

01:11:14.46 JP Yeah. 01:11:23.06 JP Right. 01:11:

30.68 JP Absolute pleasure talking to you today, Stan Lai. I know we had to move this around a little bit. I've been looking forward for a long time. and So if people

01:11:

41.68 JP you're in You have a Wikipedia page as well, um if YouTube and Facebook, et cetera. 01:11:44.41 Stan Lai Yes. 01:11:47.40 JP

Make sure to put all those links in. 01:11:

49.40 Stan Lai Thank you so much, Joey. Yeah. It's been my pleasure. um I'm very... You brought out a lot in me today. 01:11:58.01 JP Thank you so much. 01:11:58.89 Stan Lai

I'm a little surprised. 01:11:

59.17 JP nick ah Next time we're in the same city, perhaps we'll get a cup of tea together. i Love to meet you face to face.

01:12:04.95 Stan Lai Totally, totally. 01:12:05.87 JP Yes. 01:12:

05.87 Stan Lai You have my email, so let's be in touch. 01:12:08.60 JP

Very good. Thank you so much today. 01:12:

09.82 Stan Lai And i will I will follow your podcasts with great interest. 01:12:09.96 JP Thank you, Stan.

JP Sounds good. Thank you. 01:12:

15.61 Stan Lai Okay, thanks, Joey. Be well. 01:12:18.23 JP Be well. 01:12:19.10 Stan Lai All right, i