Joey Pinz Discipline Conversations

#841 Mary Kelly: Leadership Is Tough: Decisions, Accountability & Growth ⚓📊

• Joey Pinz • Episode 841

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⚓ What separates managers from leaders?

📊 Why do smart people make bad decisions?

🔥 And what’s the real price of procrastination?

In this powerful conversation, Joey Pinz sits down with a retired Navy Commander, economist, and 20-time author to explore leadership under pressure, accountability, economic uncertainty, and the habits that shape high performers.

Drawing from 21 years of military service and decades studying human behavior, she explains why easy decisions today create harder tomorrows — and how strong leaders avoid freezing in moments of crisis.

From the four “F” responses (fight, flight, freeze, fawn) to pattern recognition in hiring and decision-making, this episode is a masterclass in growth through structured action.

🔑 Top 3 Highlights:

1️⃣ The difference between a manager and a leader

2️⃣ The true economic and personal cost of procrastination

3️⃣ Why accountability systems outperform willpower

If you want to grow as a leader, make better decisions, and operate with clarity in uncertain times — this episode delivers.

#LeadershipDevelopment #DecisionMaking #Accountability #EconomicInsights #MilitaryLeadership #Productivity #GrowthMindset #Entrepreneurship #SelfImprovement #JoeyPinz

 

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SPEAKER_03

Commander, Dr. Mary Kelly. What an absolute pleasure talking with Mary. She went to the Naval Academy. All of her siblings were in the military. She talks about leadership. She talks about how decision making is done. I always love I love talking to great leaders, of course, but the question I'd like to make a clear distinction on is the difference between a manager and a leader. And she gives such a succinct answer that I've never heard before. Absolutely wonderful. We get into decision making, the price of procrastination. She's written over 20 books at this point. Just very impressive, very intentional, very direct. I asked her, I do ask her about the science versus art question and when the gut is being used and her response on that and discipline itself. Absolutely wonderful. Perspective from Mary was just enlightening. I look forward to more conversations with her. And as she says, my new best friend. Thank you so much, Mary. And thank you for watching and listening. Hi, I'm Joey Pins. And here's my 45-second introduction. After starting my business in the 90s, I started developing poor habits of eating in my diet because of working way too much. Before you know it, I found myself 340 pounds. The doctor told me if I don't lose the weight, I'm not gonna see my daughter graduate. Took the next seven months, lost 130 pounds. People think there's some secret. Ask me, how'd you lose that weight? Like there's some secret. There is no secret. How did I lose the weight? Just one word, discipline. I've had other successes in life, and I attribute them all to discipline. Now I'm not the king of discipline, but I believe that it can help all of us. Friends, colleagues convinced me to start a podcast. The podcast mission, how do we better ourselves and society? I talked to interesting people in health, fitness, sport, wellness, business, technology, science, art and culture. And I eventually asked them how discipline plays a role in their life. Podcast Vision, growth through learning from others. Commander, Dr. Mary Kelly, thank you for your time. What kind of what role do dogs play in your life, Mary?

SPEAKER_00

I think humans are better because we get to be around dogs. They have purer souls than we do. I have a dog at my feet right now, and I love the idea that dogs make us better humans.

SPEAKER_03

In this fast-paced MSP landscape, how do you stay ahead? Introducing MSP Influencer.com, your ultimate hub for MSP news, insights, and community connection powered by Forza Dash. More than 75,000 MSP subscribe to our MSP Influencer Post weekly newsletter. Staying informed and ahead of industry trends. Tune in to emerging podcasts from Joey Penns and leading MSP voices, offering essential tips, powerful insights, and success stories. Explore our multi-authored lives crafted specifically for MSP leaders, delivering fresh perspectives and actionable strategies. Celebrate excellence with the industry leading Forge Dash MSP Influencer Awards, recognizing innovation, leadership, and impact in the MSP community. Join thousands of MSP professionals who trust MSP Influencer.com to grow their business and expand their networks. Msp Influencer.com, where today's MSP leaders connect, collaborate, and conquer, all powered by the Forge Dash platform, helping MSP vendors work effectively with MSPs and helping MSPs grow. They really do, don't they?

SPEAKER_00

They do. I mean, think about it. Your dog is always happy to see you. Your dog is always happy to play with you. And, you know, your dog is part of your world, but you are your dog's whole whole world. And we have to kind of remember that. So in my opinion. But you know, little kids are the same way. You're they're part of your world, but for the longest time, you are their whole world.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. You can always tell somebody who uh, you know, who has a dog. You know, there's just this whole level of love and affection that's there. And uh it's wonderful to see.

SPEAKER_00

I once rolled into Hannibal, Missouri, and it had been kind of a long day, and I was driving north. I was spending the night in Hannibal, Missouri. I was on a road trip. And I'm and this was during the height of the pandemic. And I talked to myself out loud all the time. I'm like, okay, Mary, you know what you need right now? You need a glass of wine and a dog. And and sure enough, I watched a dog walk into a bar and I was like, and here we are. Thank you, Universe. I walked right in, I was like, um, can I pet that dog and get a glass of wine like on the same moment? They were like, you sure can. My world got perfect in that moment.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, wow. And are you still playing a lot of pickleball?

SPEAKER_00

Okay, I would love to play more pickleball than I than I am. Um the scheduling-wise becomes a problem. Um, I got to play last week. I love it because it's so social and you can have so much fun. Also, pickleball, it brings out parts of personalities. I did not know some of my friends had. My sweet, kind friend who's a therapist. She's all about love and feelings. You get her on the pickleball court, she's mean. She hits you like it's hard. So, you know, it's fun.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and you get a little sweat, and uh, like you say, it's very social. You put your paddle up there on the on the fence, and then you just wait for your rotation. I mean, it's it's really nice organization the way the way everybody does it.

SPEAKER_00

Whoever created this idea of pickleball and being able to play at any age, at any skill level with any person, there's no other activity where this happens, not even like charades or chess or anything. I th I think it's just the most brilliant idea of a community sport. It's bringing communities together. It's, you know, in the olden days, the olden days, uh, when my parents were, you know, younger and alive, they had bowling leagues. And that was that was where people showed up. You could do it in any weather. Uh, lots of people could play together, bowling leagues. That idea of social capital, I think this is where I love pickleball because it increases social capital. You know, human capital is what you know, your skills, your knowledge, your abilities, your education, what you read, you know, all the things you know. Social capital is all the things that you do in your community. You know, you're the little league coach, you're part of the PTA. Um, you you may not be a church or whatever leader in your religious affiliation, but you show up. You know, and I think a lot of life is about showing up. And I think that's why I like pickleball. It makes it easy for people just to show up and be part of something.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it really, really does. What did the Navy, you were in the Navy, you graduated from the Academy, what did it teach you about decision making under pressure?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, the Navy was great about leadership. Uh, and I need to, I need to share with you, Joey, that I do still think that our US military is the best training ground ever for any kind of leadership. So, full disclosure, my older brother, his wife, my first husband, my second, now my third. I know we'll get into that. Um, my sister, her husband, and my younger brother, everybody was military. Which means that when we get together, everybody talks in short, choppy sentences, and we're very bossy with each other. We are very clear, very direct.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

Uh, there's there's not a lot of um, how do you feel about these things? We we do not mind tasking each other. Uh, right now we're all co-caring for my um elderly mother. She turns 94 here this year, and we are very good about giving pass downs to each other. Okay, so next person in, this is what mom needs, this is what I was able to do. She seems to like this, this is where she is today. So we the great thing about the military is it teaches you a few things. First, communicate more than you think you should. And it's okay to be direct in that communication. You know, communicate more than you think you should. And then the second thing is if you if you don't know what to do, just take a step in the right direction. And that will help you decide what direction you need to go go in. Um, when the first Gulf War hit, I saw a lot of people react in the the four F's, you know, freezing, um, you know, fight or flight, of course, you know, but there's also freeze and fawn. So everybody's familiar with fight or flight, either fight or or flee. But a lot of people don't realize that freezing, like during the headlights, is another very common reaction to a crisis or a challenge or change. We saw this during COVID. A lot of people just didn't make any decisions. They froze, they did nothing, or they would try to placate a situation, or they would placate their employees. Oh, it's okay, you can stay home, just you know, just get work done when you can't. That's not leadership, that's abdication of leadership. You're not helping people get through something. What you're doing is just facilitating a problem. And so we look at leadership and training. And the great thing about the military was they encourage you to make mistakes early in your leadership journey. That's why we start young. Make the mistakes early so that by the time you get to positions of real authority, you know what to do. And you can't train people for every single contingency. So, what you do is you train people to be great leaders or really good leaders to be able to take the step in the right direction. Because you don't always know what that crisis is going to be. You got to train people so that they can handle whatever things get thrown at them. And that's where I think a lot of people want a playbook. They want a standard operating procedure for every little thing that happens in life. Well, that's just not how the world works. You got to prepare yourself for any contingency so that whatever happens, you know, you can handle it. I just threw a lot there at you. I loved it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I and I love the notion of over-communicating because often we think, well, I've said that enough, they get the point. But sometimes they don't.

SPEAKER_00

Joey, how many times has somebody told you they loved you?

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_00

A lot. Is it enough? It's never enough.

SPEAKER_03

It's never enough.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's a wonderful notion. What's the difference between a leader and a manager?

SPEAKER_00

So managers do leaders think. So there's there's strategy and then there's tactics. A lot of us get caught up in the how. Well, I want to do that, but I'm not sure how to do it. You know, when you started your podcast, you're like, okay, how do I do this? There's a how element, but you had the thought. See, the leadership part was the thought, the strategy. I want to reach more people, I want to impact people, I want to help people. And then you had to figure out the how. And the how is the headphones and the gear and the microphone and the and the platform and then the it's the how. A lot of get a lot of people get caught up in the how. Great leaders, great leaders don't get caught up in the how because they trust that other people will know the how. And they will also trust, and I think this is key, they will know somebody who knows somebody who knows how to do the how. You don't have to know all the things, you just gotta know other people. And this is where relationships at all levels are so critical. I may not know the answer, but I can sure as heck find somebody who's gonna know somebody who will, you know?

SPEAKER_03

And that's really important. That's that's really that's a very I don't know if I've ever heard that so succinct. Managers do leaders think. Are leaders born, Mary? Can they be taught?

SPEAKER_00

I think there are innate abilities that we are all born with. Some people are great at interior design. They can look at a room and say, oh, if you just move that couch over there and rearrange those pillows and and maybe put a throat, it's gonna look amazing. And it does. But there's an innate talent. We all have natural talents and abilities. And for some people, it's being able to see a business very clearly. It's being able to read people very well as you do. For some people, leadership is an innate skill, but it's also something that can be taught. Can you teach someone interior design? Yeah, we have college degrees in that. We can teach people things. So I do think leadership is both. It is something some people have an innate skill and talent for, but we can also teach people to be leaders.

SPEAKER_03

I've had managers uh who convinced themselves they were leaders and they were not. And so that's a it can be a very difficult discussion there, Mary, because ego gets in the way a little bit. And as a leader, you have to do your best to kind of show them what leadership is about. Have you ever had that challenge?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. You know, there's people who talk about leadership and yet they haven't ever been able to keep staff members. Their staff rotates every six months. They have a really high turnover rate. So you kind of have to wonder are you really a very good leader if your own people don't follow you? Are you that kind of person that people say, you know what, I'm not sure where Joey's going, but I'm gonna follow him. Um, and not just out of mere curiosity or or what's gonna happen next that could be bad, but it's I don't know where Joey's going, but if he's gonna get on that train, I want to get on that train too. There are just those people. Um, one of my okay, the best boss I ever had in the military, and I hate to say it because I was in the Navy, but he was an Army general. And he just, he was just the most genuine, forthcoming, smart, future-focused guy. And he was, I mean, he operated with people in between um, you know, people really willing to go through hellfire and water for this man. But some people were just scared to death of him because he was very direct. And I loved it because I always knew where I stood with him. If I screwed up, he was gonna let you know in no uncertain terms. If I screw up, I kind of want to know, both in my personal and professional life. You know, there's a reason I will I will ask my husband, you know, how can I be a better wife to you? And I don't stop until he gives me, you know, something. He's like, Well, you do this and you do this, and I really appreciate this. I'd also like it if we could do this. You know, we've got to be constantly improving, and we have to be honest about where we stand and where we're going and what we're doing. And my army general really taught me that. He's like, I can be mad at somebody because they screwed up, but then we fixed the problem. And he didn't say these words, but I love the phrase, you know, fix the problem, not the blame. Because let's fix what's really going on. And I think, I think that's true in professional relationships, but also personal relationships. I I just right before our call, I got off the phone with a friend who she's really struggling with a personal relationship right now. And I said, Well, have you have you just come out and said, hey, this, I see this as being detrimental to our relationship. It's not a romantic relationship, and I would really like us to fix it. And she said, Well, I just don't think I can be that straightforward. I said, But if you care about the relationship, you should be kind of willing to fight for it and be able to say the things in a way that moves things forward in a positive way. And if you do it, I think, with the right intent, that can be helpful, like my army general. He did it because we had a mission and he did it with the right intent. But it may not felt good at the time, but then once he was finished telling you you screwed up, he was like, All right, let's move on, let's go. And that to me was a very good lesson. I wasn't raised where you say the right things and do the right things all the time and in that moment and then let it go. You know, a lot of people I think hang on to, I don't want to use the word grievances, but offenses or something. And they just hang on to that and they let that define either their work relationships or their working environment or even their personal relationships.

SPEAKER_03

I don't know. Very true. It's amazing how when I speak to people and and uh you know from the military, it's a very similar perspective. There's structure there, there's you know, like you said, everything's kind of tight and speaks, you know, with an acronyms and gets the message across very directly. It's it's a great, it's a great way to go. Now you've studied economics and human behavior for for decades, Mary. So why is it so hard for people to make good decisions?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, good decisions are hard, and let me tell you why. Because a hard decision today makes it easier tomorrow, but an easy decision today makes things harder tomorrow. So think about cookies. You think or donuts. Think, you know, I really want a donut. I love donuts, by the way. Donuts are my kryptonite. I love donuts. But if I eat the donut today, that's an easy decision, but it's gonna make tomorrow at the gym harder. It's gonna make that extra pound that I just put on harder. The hard decision today is don't eat the donut, eat the cottage cheese. And you know what? That makes tomorrow easier. So this is why decision making is tough, because easy decisions are not future focused. And many of us are in a place where we make a decision because we want to be liked. That's usually an easy decision in the moment, but it makes things harder later. Or we are afraid of the risks involved. Hard decision now. We hope it's the right decision. And if we are right, it's gonna make things better in the future. But boy, it can be hard to live with now. But decisions are hard. And many people operate from a place of not making a decision because they say, Well, I don't have all the information. Okay, heads up, folks, you're never gonna have all the information. You are never gonna have perfect information. You can always research more, you can always go down a rabbit hole, you can always delay making the decision for six months, create a committee, make a study, write a white paper, do a focus group. You gotta pull the trigger, you gotta make the decision. And you gotta say, okay, and if I'm wrong, I'll correct it later or I'll make a different decision. But you just gotta make the decision and then you gotta own it. And if you're right, good for you. If you're wrong, you apologize and you try to fix it later.

SPEAKER_03

And where does accountability play in that process, Mary?

SPEAKER_00

Accountability is everything. It's self-accountability, it's accountability for other people. I love asking the question: if we don't hold ourselves accountable, what happens? And if I don't hold you accountable and you don't hold me accountable, what happens? And the reality is we can be as self-disciplined as possible. I I hold myself accountable for things. I have I have checklists, I have planners, I have schedules. It is how my life operates, and that's how I hold myself accountable. But I also have a team, a board of advisors, and we talk every month. I serve as their board of advisors on their board of advisors, they serve as mine, and we work together to hold each other accountable. And that is positive because we talk things through. And it's okay, you said you were gonna get this done in 90 days. It's now day 92. What's the status? And if you know you have to fess up to other people, it might be day 89, and you're gonna, you're gonna take a look at that and go, okay, what have I done? Because sometimes what you say was important in the time was important, and maybe it's no longer important. Maybe you can let it go. That's good accountability, is knowing what you don't have to do anymore. But maybe you really need to do it and you've just been procrastinating, or maybe you didn't put the right people in place, or whatever. Uh they might have ideas for you on how, on the how, on what you need to do. So I love that people create systems and processes to keep themselves accountable, but I think you also need people for that too.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, you certainly do. It makes a big difference. One of the big changes in my professional life is when I joined a peer group. You know, as the as the owner, as the entrepreneur, you're you're on an island by yourself, you know. And when I when I would meet my peers once a quarter, if I didn't have a good quarter, I would I I wouldn't say frightened, but I'd be concerned, I'm boy, they're gonna lay into me. I told them I'd have goals done, but this is good. This is part of the accountability because it's hard for an entrepreneur to have that. They can have it for themselves, like you said, but to have others do it adds a whole nother layer, uh, which is really good. What's what's the real price for procrastination?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, Joey, I love that question. You know, last year I wrote a book called Stop Procrastinating Tomorrow. And those resources. So, first, I had written the book during COVID when people were just frozen, and I could not get people to move. I'm like, stop, you know, you are the deer in the headlights. You're gonna get hit by the bus. You are frozen, and you're you're placating other people, and you're not fighting and you're not flying, you're just frozen. And I wanted people to move forward. But then I realized during COVID, people were not ready to hear that message. They had to kind of process through what was going on. So the book didn't launch till last year. And what I learned was first, we all procrastinate. Every pro everybody procrastinates on something. There's something you don't want to do, something you don't like doing, something you don't feel like doing, you're gonna procrastinate. We understand that. It's what you do next that matters. It's kind of like what Muhammad Ali said, you know, it's after you get punched in the face. What do you do in that nanosecond next that matters? So after you realize I have procrastinated on doing something important, I have procrastinating on a deadline, I have procrastinated. What do you do next? You got to move forward. So, how do you do that? There's that how piece again. So, one of the one of my favorite anti procrastination tools is assigning, you know, I've got I got my to do list. List. I always have a to-do list. But sometimes there's something that I don't want to do, or I've been dragging my feet and I don't necessarily know why. Maybe it's just not a project I'm excited about, or the client kind of needs this, but it's going to take, you know, some grunt work on my time to get this done. So my anti-procrastination magic is next to that project, I put the time in minutes it's going to take. And if it's over two hours, then I break it down into smaller chunks in minutes. I'm like, okay, if I was going to start on this right now, what would I do? What would what does it need to happen to in minutes? Because minutes are not scary. Two hours, that's a chunk of time that you just don't have. But you might have 17 minutes. And all of a sudden, you can get something done in 17 minutes and move forward. So let's say there's a client call you don't want to make. You say, okay, it's going to take me three to five minutes. Get it off the list. I've been dragging my feet on not calling that client for three days. It's going to take me three minutes and I'm I'm putting this on my to-do list every three days. It's taking me longer to transfer that to my next to-do list. Just get it off the list. Assign minutes and take away the fear.

SPEAKER_03

You ever adopt the Eisenhower metric?

SPEAKER_00

I love the Eisenhower metric. So if it's urgent and important, we should do that. But most of us gravitate toward the either urgent and not so important or the easy things because we do the things that we can knock out fast. What you do first thing in the morning is you go through your emails and you knock out the easy ones. And then you get to the things that actually take focus. Well, sometimes the ones that take focus are the most important things, but you delay doing that because you knew it was going to take your big brain power. And Harvard says, for procrastination purposes and time management purposes, we can only do humans can only do about four hours of big brain activity in a day. So you have to think, okay, when does my big brain activity kick in and when does it not? And if I only have four hours a day and I'm wasting the first six hours of the day doing things that don't really matter so much and the things that are easy, by the end of that six hours, now I'm at my tired point, and now is when I'm going to do my big brain activity, and we wonder why there's a disconnect.

SPEAKER_03

You mentioned your latest book. I believe you've written 20 over 20 at this point.

SPEAKER_00

I have. I've got another one coming out. It's called Leadership is Tough. What great leaders do differently. And it's about the skills, the decisions, and the disciplines that really truly great leaders have that differentiates them from other people. And you know, you write enough books. Some are good. I mean, some are good. And I'm very excited about this new one. I think it's going to fall into the really good category. Um, you know, some I wrote because I needed to get something out and I needed the structure and all that. And they're okay. But this one I think is going to be really good. Um, because the idea that leadership is tough, a lot of people think it's going to be easy once you sit in the big chair. Or the decisions magically get easier. They don't. All of a sudden, when you get promoted, when you get more senior, you stop hearing things. People are quieter when you walk through the hallways. You're now the grown-up. I use the term grown-up in the room. And people don't tell you the things they told you 15 or 20 years ago when you were all just casually standing around the coffee machine. It's harder to get good information. It's harder to get unbarnished information. And even though you might have teams of people surrounding you, some of them are acting as moat dragons and they are preventing certain information from getting to you. So you have to guard against the moat dragons. You have to be making sure that you're getting good information. Sometimes senior leaders in politics and business are faulted for not knowing things. And somebody says, Well, how can you fault them? You know, their people didn't tell them. I say two problems there. If their people aren't telling them, it's because they've created a culture where people aren't telling them things. Or it's because when people do tell them, again, the culture, um, they let it know that they just don't want to know. So either way, you're setting yourself up to not be in a position to get information. And the more senior you get, the harder you have to work to get truth, especially if it's not something you want to hear.

SPEAKER_03

When you're writing, Mary, how how often do you keep the reader in mind? What's your process there?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, such a great question. Every time I am writing about a situation, I am thinking about a conversation with the person who had that problem. And this is why I love being able to go out and talk to audiences because somebody will tell me something. And then I get to write about it. So just last week I was in DC and there was a young man, super bright, and he said, I'm having this problem at work. And the problem is, and I gotta tell you, I could finish his sentence because I knew where he was going. And his boss is threatened by him. Um, his boss is not very bright, um, doesn't like the fact that this guy, who's 10 years younger than he is, is better at the job and he's struggling to manage his boss, who is apparently feeling very insecure that his young talent is talent more talented than he is. So I always tell my leaders, find the smartest people you can possibly find and hire them and then keep them as long as you can, because you're never gonna know everything. And being able to have top talent around you is a gift. But a lot of people feel threatened by the fact that other people are more competent, smarter, better than they are. So then the question is if you're one of those people who's not as smart and not as good, what do you do? You surround yourself with smart people and you encourage them. You don't, you don't oppress them, you know, and you you help them help you be better and you take advantage of that. And he was in this this situation. And then I wrote an article about it where what do you do if your boss is threatened by your competency and retaliates? And as soon as I wrote this article, Joey, I three young people contacted me and said, This is exactly what I'm going through right now. Can you talk me through what I should possibly do? You know, so every time I write, that's such a good question. I have somebody in my head who I am I am addressing their issues.

SPEAKER_03

So why not just continue to write articles or blogs instead of a book? Book is such a big undertaking.

SPEAKER_00

A book is a big undertaking, and you're right. But it's also an idea to take certain things with a certain theme or a certain motivation and develop it further. An article is 800 to 1200 words, a book is 250 pages. There's a big difference. Yes, it forces my brain, I like writing because it forces my brain to be more organized, it forces my brain to think deeper, to explore more, to really find a depth that you can't do in 1200 words. And I realize that for some people, that book is going to be daunting. And I'm trying to make it not daunting. I'm trying to make it accessible and in bite-sized chunks and all that. But this new book is really for people who want depth. It's for people who want to think differently and and have their actions align with their behaviors in a different way. Because great leadership is a lot about who you are and how you come across, and it's your integrity and your character and your response, especially when it's tough. And sometimes you look at your options and none of them are good. None of them are good. And you're just trying to balance bad, you know, bad outcomes with bad outcomes in a crisis situation. How are you gonna do that? And that's when you have to rely on everything that you've developed over the years, not just your own human capital, your knowledge, skills, talents, abilities, education, experience, but who you are. And that is what this book is about.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I have a book as well, and it's a long process. And um, a common myth, I believe, is that one makes a lot of money uh writing books. Unless you're J.K. Rawling, um, that's not the case. I mean, certainly there's some, but I don't know what the percentage is, one or two. But um it's a definitive, it's a definitely different venture.

SPEAKER_00

It is a different venture, and and I'm not sure everybody has different motivations for writing books. I write books for for a couple reasons. First, I have something to say that I think will be helpful to other people. Number one. Number two, writing the book helps me be a better leader and a better person. So there's that. I the learning process of writing the book and going deeper and doing the research helps me grow. So I like that as well. And then the third thing is it becomes something I can give my clients so that they've got something more. My one of my personal finance books, I was teaching personal finance at both the Naval Academy and the Air Force Academy. And at the end of a semester, I had some young people who came up to me and said, So we we really appreciate all the stuff you talk to us about personal finance. But, you know, that was in between our chemistry classes and our physics classes and our aerospace engineering classes, and we didn't remember everything. So can you just put it all in one place where we can just kind of haul it around for us? And I said, You mean like a book? Like you're young people and you want a book? And they go, Yeah, like a book. I'm like, oh, okay, I can do that. So three months later, I had the book because my young people said, We need this and we need it before we graduate. And so if you could help us out, that'd be great. So I gifted all my graduating seniors with this personal finance book. So, you know, so sometimes you write books because you have something to say, sometimes you're trying to help other people, sometimes you're trying to learn.

SPEAKER_03

You mentioned being a teacher and a professor. What's the difference between an effective and an ineffective professor?

SPEAKER_00

Ooh, do they remember? Do they remember? And what do they remember you for? Um, one of my calculus teachers at the Naval Academy, and I was I was not a good maths or engineering student at the Naval Academy. I really struggled with those classes. And so we had to take, everybody has to take calc one, calc two, calc three, differential equations. So you've got two years of higher math. And I wasn't good, frankly, at any of it. And I don't remember any of those math teachers except one. And I am not proud to say I made a D in his class, and frankly, I was happy to get the D. But what he taught me was more important than calculus. And one time somebody asked him a question. He had emigrated from Iran after the 1979 overthrow of the Shah. And somebody asked him that question one time in a calculus class, and he he spent that class period talking about getting out of Iran. And that was impact. I don't remember the equations, I don't remember the tests, but I remember that one hour and I remember his name because that stuck with me. So the difference between between an effective teacher and a not so one is what do they remember? And what kind of lasting impact are you leaving on them? And and to further that, when you think back on all the teachers you ever had in your life from first grade on, all the teachers and coaches, Joey, how many of them changed your life? I mean, really changed your life? How many?

SPEAKER_03

Not many.

SPEAKER_00

No, the average person would say one to two.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Think of all the semesters, every class, all those years, your teachers, your coaches, everybody, people say one to two people. And that's why I love being a teacher. And that's what I would tell the new teachers coming in is if we're great at our job, we might be that one to two.

SPEAKER_03

The old uh saying, I'd rather have a hard C than an easy A.

SPEAKER_00

You may not like it. The A feels good. It's an easy, it's easy, but it's not where you learn.

SPEAKER_03

And even speakers, you know, I I when I'm with colleagues, I I often say, you know, what did you hear? Or how did you feel after that? It's it's never what did they say. It doesn't matter what they say, it's what you heard and what you felt. That's what you're gonna remember. Big difference.

SPEAKER_00

It is so interesting because sometimes people will credit me for saying something that I did not say, but it's what they needed to hear at the time. And all of a sudden you're like, oh, okay, well, that is what they heard. And that's that's sometimes we have to remember that, but we it also gives us a level of responsibility that we have to be careful because sometimes people will hear things that we don't say, and and sometimes that can be good, sometimes it can be not so good.

unknown

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03

Mary, what's the difference between motion and progress?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, you can go through the motions and not go anywhere. Um, progress is is making sure that when you take that step and put it in front of that other foot, you're going in the right direction. Uh, a ship in the middle of the ocean has to pick a direction. Otherwise, you're just floating with the tide. And that's the difference. You might be moving, but you're not going in the right direction, and it's not progress. So I'm fond of telling people, you know, pick a direction. Even if it's wrong, you'll figure that out later. But pick a direction and head in that direction. I get enthusiastic. I run a thousand miles an hour sometimes with a project. I get very excited about my projects, and sometimes I'll just run smack into a brick wall and I'll go, whoa, okay, that was a colossal failure. But I went toward it, I mean, I ran fast toward it. And then you hit the wall and you bounce back and go, okay, which direction do I go in now? It's important to know the direction, and but it's important to take the step in the right place. And if you're wrong, you'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_03

Is there a particular decision that changed your life that you can recall?

SPEAKER_00

Hmm. A particular decision. Joining the Navy was the big one, you know, going to the Naval Academy, being able to do that. I had to make that decision at 16 years old. Wow. You know, and 16, you don't know anything. My big military experience was watching MASH. I didn't know anything about the military. I didn't know, I didn't know the difference between officer and enlisted. I didn't really know the difference in the services. I thought the Navy would be good because we'd have views of the ocean. Turns out that was true. Um did I romanticize it? Probably. Was that good? Sure. Because all of a sudden you think it's going to be an adventure. It was. There were great days. There were also some real tough days. But overall, that decision to be able to go to the Naval Academy, to go to the Naval Academy, to graduate from the Naval Academy, to be on active duty for 21 years, to stay on active duty, to keep taking the jobs, even though you're thinking, oh man, is this for me? Maybe, you know, maybe I could do something else. Maybe I should. But the decision every couple of years when you have the opportunity, do you want to get another set of orders or do you want to get out? The decision to stay was was good for me. And it's because what people don't realize is the more senior you are, the jobs get harder, but they also get better. And you've got you've got more of an ability to handle the hard jobs because you've had that human capital. You've had the knowledge, skills, talents, abilities, experience, education. And you've also got ideally the peer groups that you're talking about, where if you don't know, you call somebody and you say, Hey, I don't know if you've had this situation, but I'd like somebody to talk through it with me. Can you be that person right now? You've got those relationships. You know, at 25, I didn't know that much. I thought I did. I mean, think about who we were at 25, Joey. I mean, we thought we knew so much. We were so wrong. We were so wrong. So I would, I would say the Navy has been that decision. Even now, my classmates from the Naval Academy are my, I call them my first line of defense. When I have a new book that's coming out or a new title, I vet it by them. When I have a new book cover where I need input, I give it to them. And they give me their opinion, good, bad, or indifferent. Um, and some of them are, they're like, and no, hard, no, don't like it, whatever. And I value all those opinions. But they're also the people when I say, hey, I need some help. Can you, you know, think about this? Or does anybody know somebody who can, or do you know of somebody who knows somebody? They respond. And I adore my classmates. Um, even the ones that I argue with, even the ones we don't share the same political opinions, we don't share the same uh backgrounds, we don't share, you know, if we have nothing in common except we were classmates, and that makes everything in common.

SPEAKER_03

How should civilians show appreciation to those that served?

SPEAKER_00

Hire them. And by that, I mean don't hire them out of pity. Hire them because you want somebody on your team who is going to understand your mission, vision, and goals. You know, because a lot of Vietnam vets um got promoted in the media as being homeless, living under bridges, and being volatile and everybody running around with PTSD, it made a lot of people think that we're all that way. And that frankly, hiring a veteran was going to be a risky thing. It's the least risky thing I think you can do because you know exactly what you're getting. There is a proven track record. They're gonna get on board with your mission, vision, and goals. They're gonna take on the mission. Um, and they're gonna be the people who speak up in a lot of cases. Um, I was at a I was at a great, great event last week, which uh highlighted military veterans across a specific sector. And the reason they brought these people together, the CEOs who are there said is because these people will tell me things that other people don't. And again, when you're that senior person, and they asked, they said things that I went, even I was like, whoa, I can't believe somebody said that because they have input and they bring these people together because they want this input. And the best way to get people on your side to coalesce people is frankly to ask their opinion and then listen to it. And you may say, that's an idea. I'm not gonna be able to take any action on that for probably six months or a year, if ever, but I'll keep you informed. It's respecting the opinion. So if you really want to show appreciation to the military, hire them, get their opinion, um, bring them in to talk to your team about whatever it is they're good at doing. Um, I I love my other military veterans who are in the speaking world, and we get together and we talk about how we can help organizations and what we are, what we're telling them right now. And a lot of us have a similar message, and that is leadership matters and it's tough.

SPEAKER_03

What if discipline wasn't about punishment, but about unlocking your best self? I spent two and a half years writing discipline for greatness, because discipline changed my life. And I know it can change yours too. This isn't a theory. Inside, you'll find real practical steps you can use immediately to focus better, build stronger habits, reduce stress, accomplish your goals, and bring more balance to your life. Whether you're trying to get healthier, improve your career, or simply feel more control. This book gives you the framework. Start today. Grab your copy of Discipline for Greatness at joeypins.com slash book. Thank you. Is there anything specifically that concerns you about the current leadership climate?

SPEAKER_00

I'm concerned about everything all the time. Are you? Um, but strong leadership is hard. And you may not like every decision that comes out of your chain of command. I certainly didn't. Um, from Navy time to active duty time, I was involved. And then I taught at the Air Force Academy for another 10 years as a civilian. So I was in some form of federal service for 35 years. Did I always agree with the administration? Of course not. Did I always agree with my boss? Certainly not. Did I think at times my bosses were making dumb decisions? You bet. That doesn't matter. You're on the team, you be part of the team, you move forward as part of the team, and you do your very best every single day. Why that is not a and I don't I don't say that to be a politically correct answer. Of course. I'm saying that because a lot of times people use the fact, well, I don't like my boss, I don't like, you know, this political party, I don't like this as an excuse to not do their job. Or they don't use it as an excuse to not give a hundred percent. There's no excuse for that.

SPEAKER_03

So why do you think really smart people make bad decisions?

SPEAKER_00

Um, because they want to be popular. Because they want to be liked in the moment, because it's easy in the moment, because it feels good in the moment, because they're rushed, because they got lazy for all those reasons. It doesn't mean they're bad people. Right. But but tough decisions are really tough. They are.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I never rem I remember I I years ago I hired this Ukrainian gentleman and um and this was just after Russia withdrew from Afghanistan. And I said to him, I said, you know, what was it like there? When, you know, why did they do that? Why did they come in? And he just shook his head and he goes like this, politics. One-word answer. Yeah, that that's it. Is there something that you strongly believed in 10 years ago that you no longer believe in, Mary?

SPEAKER_00

No. Nothing. No, my uh my prime core values have not really changed um over time. They just have not changed. I I work to get deeper. I try to be a better person every single day, but my belief system is pretty steady, I would say.

SPEAKER_03

It doesn't necessarily have to be a belief or something, yeah, you strongly believed in. Um you can confidently say nothing. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00

I have a lot of optimism. I have a lot of hope. I have hope for mankind, I have hope for our younger generations. I have great optimism that most people are good and most people want to do the right thing, and most people will do the right thing when when they're presented with the opportunity to do the right thing. I love that people will step up when given expectations. And in teaching, I would tell my young people, and it didn't matter if I was teaching at the community college or in the graduate program or at one of the military academies, I would tell them, look, I've got really high expectations of you. And I will tell you, they rise to the level of expectation you have for them. Um and they will also rise to the lowest level of expectation you have of them. So if you ex if you have low expectations, people will get there.

SPEAKER_03

Is there a question you wish more people would ask you?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, that's hard. Um I think I would like to tell people why I do what I do, my why. Because why we do things, why we, you know, it's like it's one of those questions. The the Eagles are still touring. And, you know, who would have thought Joe Walsh would still be alive after all this? I mean, come on. We're all surprised at that. I think he is too surprised. He's surprised. Everybody is surprised. And you know, they've got Glenn Fry's kids singing with him now, and he's he's very talented, he's amazing. But the Eagles, you know, why do they do what they do? They got the money. Yeah. What are they doing? There's they're in their 70s. I mean, I don't, I think they're old. Um, they got to get tired, you know, and being on the road is hard. Why do they do it? And it is because they get to bring joy and happiness to people when they play. I guess, I think that's my surmise. I don't know. But I would love to ask, I love to ask people why they do what they do. You know, why are you guys still on the road? They still sound great. They're amazing. I just saw them. They're, I mean, a couple of years ago, they are amazing. And it was a peak moment for me. So, why do people do what they do? You know, what really compels them? And not just the, oh, I need a job, I need something to do every day, gets me out of the house. Why? What it what is our core motivation? What is our intrinsic, deep-down motivation that gets us out of bed, that gets us to do things? You know, why do people create amazing podcasts, Joey? Why do you do it? Have you always been curious? Yes. My favorite books as a child were the Curious George books. Yeah. Yeah. I I love to ask questions. I love to learn. My my new husband, I told him, he said, in our relationships here, what do you expect out of me? And my answer was, I expect you to learn things. I expect you to teach me things. Like I need to learn every single day. I need, I need to learn things every single day. And he's a really smart guy.

SPEAKER_03

I may have misheard, but did I hear you say that you don't you don't like the particular avenue over which Socratic method is is done, the question-based learning?

SPEAKER_00

Did I hear that right? So I like to ask questions, but I also like answers. Right. So when so and and unfortunately, the Socratic method has been twisted a little bit from what do you think to how do you feel? And I do not think the feeling part is as important as the thinking part. So I love the Socratic method. So when somebody says, you know, I think we should do this, what do you think? I'm gonna say, well, what you think we should do this, tell me why you think that. And I want them to be able to say, because I think this is this, this, this, this. I want to hear their thought process. Um, when somebody says, Well, it just makes me feel good to think this way, I'm gonna want more. Feelings are important to a lot. I mean, I I have them occasionally too. I mean, I think they're important. Maybe once a week, sometimes twice. If there's a puppy or a kitten, all the feels. There's that. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03

Uh, so I started my my business in the 90s, Mary, and I was working way too hard. And uh, you know, 14, 16 hour days, you're no stranger to this. And um, you know, putting the exercise and you know, myself in the backseat. And next thing I know, you know, developing poor eating habits, not, you know, and it's the next thing I know in front of the doctor, she tells me I'm at 340 pounds. So I had gained all this terrible amount of weight, and I knew I was getting big, didn't know I was that big. But then she says to me, if you don't lose this weight, you're not gonna see your daughter graduate. So my daughter was just born, scared the life out of me. I'm driving home. I'm not a violent person, but I was punching the steering wheel. What have I done to myself? Because my decisions on me are aren't about me anymore. It's much bigger than me. I have this family. So I spent the next uh six, seven months, lost about 120 pounds, and I kept it off. You know, you can't look at these things as finishing line. These are lifelong changes. So when I tell people this, they always say, you know, what's your secret, what you do? And I say, look, it's just discipline, right? Focus, motivation, routine. How does discipline play a role in your extraordinary life, Mary?

SPEAKER_00

So I have been told I'm a disciplined person, but it's also because I limit options. So for example, I know if I have Oreo cookies in the house, that becomes a temptation and then that threatens my discipline. So I try not to keep Oreo cookies in, which I love, the both the chocolate and the vanilla kind. I like, I like the lemon ones. I like all of them. I I like I like donuts, I like cookies, you know, it's all my kryptonite. Um, so I try to put myself in a situation where my decision-making process is limited to better choices. And not just for the diet, but for other things as well. I I train my body for certain triggers. And I learned part of this from Stephen Pressfield. And you know Pressfield's work even if you don't know his name. He wrote The Last of the Amazons, he wrote um, you know, Gates of Fire that the movie The 300 was based out of, the last of the uh Last of the Amazons, I said, The Legend of Bagger Vance, he wrote that. Um, he's this great historical writer. And I got to interview him once. And I said, I said, how do you get the muse? I mean, where does the muse strike and how do you get this? And he says, Oh, the muse strikes every morning at 9 a.m. when I put my butt in that chair, because that's discipline. And his body is triggered that when you get the butt in the chair and you're sitting at the desk, which is your writing desk, and you've got the screen opened and your notes next to you, you know what to do. And somebody asked me that question recently. They said, How, what are your habits that contribute? Because habits contribute to the discipline. So if you've got the habit in place, then your body will just respond. So I know what I'm working on, my computer is here, my coffee is at my left-hand side, there's a dog at my feet. I always have a yellow legal pad to my right, I always have my calendar right under that. It is how I situate it for my productivity. And I know when I get in this mode, it's time to work. It is time to do the things I need to be doing. So the habits have to contribute to the discipline. You can be a really disciplined person, but without habits where you don't have to think as hard, you're not as effective. So my body also, because I'm on planes a lot, like you, when I hit 10,000 feet, the computer comes out. I don't get to watch movies, I don't get to read magazines, I don't get to read books. The computer comes out and I work. And my body is trained. So, I mean, I can feel the altitude when we get to that point. I don't even have to wait for the ding ding ding where they go, now you can, you know, take out your electronic devices. My body knows I am reaching for the machine when they say you can take out your electronic devices because that's work time to me. I can't afford a couple hours in the air for just not being productive. So when you set those things up and you set the habits in motion, people call it discipline, but it's really good habits that make you more productive so that you don't have to think about, am I gonna do it? You know, it's it's the same why you never miss a gym class if you're teaching the gym class, because you you're the teacher, you got to show up. When I was teaching yoga back in the days before it got popular, I was doing it because I would substitute for my friends, and I never missed a class if I had to teach the class. If I got to attend, then it was optional. I missed a lot of those classes. So when you give yourself an option that is not the best option, you're keep in mind your brain is hardwired to take the easy way out. So you the the part of the discipline is just limiting those options.

SPEAKER_03

Come from a military family, military background. Was discipline instilled in the household? Was it discussed? Was it exemplified as a child?

SPEAKER_00

So my parents were not military, but they're Irish Catholic, which is the same thing. So, yes, I mean, we were expected to do chores. You make your bed every day, you wash the dishes at night, you you sit down and eat as a family every day, and we did discuss tough topics around the dinner table. And I do credit my parents for raising four kids who all joined the military because for us, you know, when my older brother went, I was like, well, is it hard? He goes, It's easier than home.

SPEAKER_02

I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_00

So I so the military wasn't that much of an adjustment for the four of us because we were used to having, you know, a schedule. My dad, my dad, up until he couldn't anymore, would get up and get what he called operational. And that meant he would get up, have coffee, go take a shower, and shave every single day of his life. And he was ready for the day. There was none of the sitting around in your pajamas till noon. There's none of the, oh, I'll get to it when I get to it. You know, he was the guy who said, you know, plan your work, work your plan. And he did that every single day of his life.

SPEAKER_03

You know, Mary, as I talk to you, I I want to ask the science versus art question. When you're making a decision, you're you're very structured. You're very, you know, you have emotions up to, you know, twice a month. Uh so when you're doing it, do you ever ask your gut? Is it does your gut ever play a role on decision making?

SPEAKER_00

Always.

SPEAKER_03

Really?

SPEAKER_00

Always. So I think our instincts are a data point.

SPEAKER_03

Huh.

SPEAKER_00

It is not, it is not an extraneous thing. I met I met somebody last night, had never met him before, and I looked at one of his friends and I said, um, he has these talents, doesn't he? And the the the buddy goes, yeah. And I said, and I looked at this kid, I had just met kid. He's a little he's in his 20s, and I said, I would like to hire you. I said, I think you are smart, I think you're thoughtful, I think you're creative, I think you've got um some amazing talents, and I would like to hire you. And let me, and he goes, Yes. And I go, let me tell you what that's gonna look like. And he goes, I'm all in. And and he goes, why? He goes, I've never had somebody just meet me and say they wanted to hire me. I said, because there's pattern recognition. So that gut instinct a lot of times is pattern recognition. You can tell when somebody's smart, you can tell when somebody's motivated, you can ask a couple of questions and get some clarification, but that data point for years and years and years of experience, that's where these instants, a lot of these instincts come from, is years of experience and and pattern recognition. So can I spot talent just out of the blue? There was it was 10 people in this group, and I grabbed this one person, wasn't planning on hiring anybody, and I said, I would like to hire you. Now, I didn't know the kid's last name, but but I see that there's an opportunity, and somebody would call it a gut instinct, but I would call it pattern recognition.

SPEAKER_03

Fascinating how you turn something, yeah, like the gut, which is kind of intuitive, but it still can be measured and scientific.

SPEAKER_00

It's a data point. It is a data point. Everything is a data point. It is a data point. Now, and then, you know, do you ever get that weird feeling where a sense of absolutely, and I listen to that. I try to listen to everything. Um, I try to listen to what people aren't saying. I try to get that sense. Um, I just did a project with a company, and I said, I can get a better under, it's going to be costlier if I show up on site. I can do stuff by phone calls, by Zoom, and all that. They did not want to have a Zoom call, so I couldn't see body language. But even with phone calls, there were still a couple of things. I was like, I went back and I asked somebody, I said, Is this happening in this company? They go, How did you find out? Who told you? I said, Nobody told me. They said, How do you know? I'm like, because some things were just not said, and it's pattern recognition. And if I was on site and I could see it, then it's easier to see, it's easier to read, it's more obvious. Um, but you can still get a lot from pattern recognition. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, trying to stay attuned as to what is unsaid is a is a skill, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

It's tricky and and you gotta understand that you could be wrong. Uh, and you and you you you just gotta understand that sometimes you're gonna be wrong and you gotta ask questions and you gotta be willing to learn.

SPEAKER_03

When you're speaking and you're on stage, how do you read the audience? Do you do you pinpoint a couple and keep eye contact with them? Do you just kind of get a feeling of everyone? Are there any tricks that you use there?

SPEAKER_00

So, first off, being on stage in front of an audience is my happy place. I love teaching for that reason. I love the idea that I can my energy level, I throw energy out to the audience, they throw energy back at me. I get I get more energy from this. It gets thrown back at them in this interaction, this wonderful interplay of exchanging ideas and thoughts and learning and experiences. And my goal is to have every single person in that audience walk out and say, Mary was speaking to me. That was all for me. And I, that's my goal every single time. So that's a high bar. And because of that, I am watching what everybody is doing. I am trying to get into everybody's head. Because if I was staying in my head first off, not nearly as interesting as, you know, 2,000 people in a room, but I'm trying to get in their head and see what's resonating with them, what they like, what they don't like. In any one hour program I have, I have 40 hours of material. So that if I throw something out and it doesn't land, I'm gonna, I'm gonna change things right in the moment. I'm gonna shift. And I'm and I've got it chunked. So in a one-hour program, everything is chunked in 15 second intervals so I can respond and shift fast to whatever the audience is thinking. And sometimes, I mean, and sometimes you have to shift. Like I went on stage very recently where they said, um, you know, the the president of our association died of a heart attack a month ago, and everybody's feeling really on edge and rudderless and concerned. And I said, okay. I said, are we okay if we address that? I'd like to address that. Um, because you have to address what's in people's heads. Um, the day after our last most recent presidential election, I was keynoting to a group of people, and it was, I'd been with them the day before, and everybody had this great dinner, and it was 500 people. And I walked into that room the next day and it was dead silence because half the people were mad, half the people were relieved, but nobody knew what to say. And so certain things you had, and I knew I was gonna have to address whatever it was, and I didn't know if people were gonna be happy or sad or um or everybody was gonna be just happy or whatever. But you've gotta have, you've gotta have contingencies for all that. And I worked on that opening for three days. I mean, I worked, I worked on that opening and what I was gonna say, depending on this, this, this, this, this, and where the audience was and what their emotional levels were. And I've got to be wildly concerned and in tune with the emotional level of what is going on in the audiences' heads. And it's all of them. But you know that you do the same thing.

SPEAKER_03

And what do you do with the haters? What do you do with the trolls if you get a negative uh comment or you know, what do you what do you do with them?

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for the feedback. I love your opinion. I love, I love everybody's opinion. And even the trolls, they got something to say. So that's okay. And there's some people who come up to I've had somebody come up to me after a talk and go, I loved everything you said, but I hate the fact that you're in the military. I'm a pacifist, and I hate what you did. And I think you're a baby killer. And I'm like, well, okay, I know I never killed a baby. I'm just saying that. Um, you know, I'm I'm just throw that out. And I'm like, look, you're entitled. I said, I'm the first one to say you are entitled to your opinion, and I will defend to the death your right to say it, because that's how that's how America is. So I want the haters to come up and go, I don't agree with stuff. I'm like, great, do you want to talk about it? And if you don't, that's fine too. You know, everybody's got opinions, everybody's got thoughts, and I am very, very open to whatever they want to talk about. I'm I'm just I want people who disagree to talk to each other. I want people with different opinions to share opinions. I think, I think a lack of civil discourse in this country is a big detriment right now. That people think you either have to believe all of one thing or all of another. And if you're not, that you know, we should somehow be at odds. Well, you know, I'm madly in love with my husband, but I don't agree with everything he says or thinks either. And the fact that we talk about it makes us rational adult human beings. So let's let's get it all out there and talk it through.

SPEAKER_03

Heard this great uh analogy recently, Mary, where the the crow is the only bird that'll attack an eagle. So an eagle will be flying and the the crow will land on its back and start pecking at it. Now the eagle does not shake it off, it just increases altitude because it knows at a certain altitude the crow can't handle it and it'll just fall off. So if the world is at you and pecking at you, just continue to rise.

SPEAKER_00

I love that analogy. I love that analogy. Because at the end of the day, you know, you're responsible to yourself. You're responsible for yourself, you're responsible to yourself, you're responsible for getting through life as an adult, for having an income, for taking care of your family, for taking care of your neighbors, being a good member of the community. That's what responsible people do. And there's gonna be some people who are not that way. So, okay. That does not absolve us from that responsibility.

SPEAKER_03

Do you meditate or journal?

SPEAKER_00

Ooh, I take 10 minutes every day. Um, usually it's because I have some kind of cream on my face that is supposed to be moisturizing something. And they say, leave this on your face or your hair for 10 minutes a day. And so I multitask meditate. So I'll put goo in my hair or goo on my face, and then I will maybe lie there. Um, by the way, the dog likes it because then the dog gets petted as I lie down. I've got, I'm I'm doing something good, I'm petting the dog, and then I think, and that's my thinking time. I'm like, okay. During COVID, I wrote a book called The Five Minute Leadership Guide. And the idea was every day you would kind of take this time for people. It's it's a journal for people who don't journal. It's a meditation for people who don't meditate. And it was. I just asked you every day, what challenges do I expect to have today? You know, you could do it the night before. What challenges do I expect to have tomorrow? What skills do I need to bring to this today? So let's say you've got a hard conversation with an employee. Okay, I'm gonna need my empathy skills, I'm gonna need my listening skills, I'm gonna need some patience, I'm gonna have to have my data, you know, where it needs to be. What do I need to do for this? And then at the end of it, it was, you know, what did I learn today? And how could I have handled something better? And then what am I gonna do better tomorrow? So those were the things. Um, but this is but then this is where I messed up. I thought we're in the middle of COVID. How lucky are we to be in the middle of COVID? We're in this global pandemic. We get to tell people we got through this global pandemic. I realize not everybody did, that's very bad. But what did we learn about ourselves during this time? So I thought this journal for a year would be so great for us to just have this captured, you know, like a diary. And so I made it 365 days, which meant it was a book about 400 pages. Yeah, you know what people can't handle? Books that are 400 pages. So this was one of my big failures. And once I turned, once I took it from 365 days to 31 days, the five-minute leadership guide in 31 days. Oh, that that was easier. That was more palatable instead of this idea that you would do it for a year. A year's a commitment, you know. So that was a very long answer to a short question of do I meditate or journal? I try to do a little bit of both. I make notes every day because making notes and getting things out of my head helps me to helps my brain organize things, but it also helps me be clear about my intentions for the next day.

SPEAKER_03

Has there been anything in the last month or so you changed your mind on? Changed my mind on.

SPEAKER_00

No, not really. Um, no, I can't think of anything off the top of my head. Um, one thing is I I lost a dog in December to cancer. And um, anybody who's lost a dog, you know it's just it's the worst. And I thought I was gonna get another dog, and my remaining dog has made it very clear to me that she does not want to be um a sibling again. She loves being an only dog. So that's like the one thing I changed my as I was looking for another dog, and then this dog made it very clear to me that she did not want another sibling. I brought some other dogs over and she responded poorly. Um, she let me know she was unhappy. Dogs are good at that. She pooped on the on the carpet um uh several times to let me know this was not something she wanted. And I'm like, okay, you're doing your very best to communicate with mommy, and mommy needs to listen. So I always said I would always have at least two dogs, and now I'm down to one. So I guess I've changed my mind on that. You're probably looking for something more deep. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_03

There's no wrong answer. One one person said to me they went from uh well done to medium rare hamburgers. So it, you know, it doesn't uh there's no wrong answer. Yeah. Um, what motivates you?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I am motivated by gratitude. And I know that sounds so pithy and so trite, but I I am I am mindful every single second of every single day that because of the sheer accident of birth that I was born in this country, I have opportunities that the vast majority of people on the planet do not have. And with that, with that comes a lot of responsibility. And that because the happy accident of birth, um, I got a great education. By the happy accident of birth, um I'm mostly healthy. And that gives me a great response, you know, to whom much is given, much is expected. And I feel like I've been given a lot. And so every day I wake up in a place of gratitude. I'm like, I cannot believe that I am lucky enough to do this. I cannot believe I'm lucky enough to work on this project. And it drives me to work 12, 14 hours a day. It does. And people are like, well, now you should be. Oh, I had a relative who just would constantly say, just enjoy life. I'm like, I am enjoying my life. I am enjoying what I get to do. And to me, it's a privilege to be able to get to do what we get to do. Um, and I know I know it just sounds so pithy and and so trite, but I I am motivated by gratitude. And and my friend Peter Stark, he says, you know, we like people who are kind and generous and grateful. And he's right, he is absolutely right. So um I would say I'm motivated by gratitude.

SPEAKER_03

So given the motivation of gratitude, how do you measure success?

SPEAKER_00

Ooh, success is did I learn something today for me, and did I do something nice for other people? Yeah. So learning and behaving. Yes. Yes. Did I learn something and did I did I help somebody else?

SPEAKER_03

So that comes into impact when you help others.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. We're put on the planet to impact and influence positively other people, I think. I hope, I think. If I'm wrong, you know, heaven's gonna be a big shock for me. They're like, girl, you got this all wrong.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

All right, we'll try again. Sorry. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03

Feeling good feels much better than bad feeling bad. So I would think that where a positive impact would help. I mean, just by that anecdotal uh evidence. Um I hope so. I had this ongoing thesis and there's lots of holes in it, but uh that that that being kind and being generous can be selfish because oftentimes if I help somebody, I feel so darn good about it that maybe it's helping me more.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so I'm gonna tell you a quick story. Please. When I was young, my family fell on pretty hard times. There was a time when we were really struggling, like the teachers called my parents and said, Little Mary is lying because she says that that there's no food in the refrigerator. And my parents were like, she's not lying. You know, I mean, it was rough. And I remember one Christmas Eve, somebody knew we were struggling, and they left $250 in between the screen door and the front door on Christmas Eve. We still don't know who did it, and that fed us over the holidays. And so I I have it's part of my strategic plan is I have to anonymously give away a certain amount of money, a sizable amount of money every year to uh to people who need it who can never say thank you because this if they can say thank you, then it's selfish to me. It's not real giving. It's harder than you think because you think we'll just give it to an organization. No, no, no, because then there's a there's a paper trail, then there's a thing. How do you give away in a way that nobody knows you're giving?

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

You know, how do you do that? It's harder than you think. And you can't, and sometimes, you know, you can't just go around leaving money in people's front doors. They've got ring cameras and you get shot and you know, all that.

SPEAKER_03

Different world, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Different world. Um, yeah. So uh uh one of my favorite things, although it's it kind of gets into the place where they can say thank you, is I will tuck um $20 bills in the janitor's carts at airports, you know, when they're not looking, but sometimes they see you and they think you're taking stuff, you know, and then you have to point to the thing and then they're like, oh, thank you, because nobody ever tips the janitors at airports, you know. That's like a lost, I think that's a lost place for tipping. Um, but then um I tried to tip one and it wasn't a janitor's cart at all. And then they thought, yeah, it didn't turn out well. So it's harder than you think.

SPEAKER_03

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SPEAKER_00

Exactly. Exactly. Um, I do like the thing, you know, where you go to breakfast and you get 10 people and everybody throws in a hundred dollar bill and that becomes the tip. But then the then the problem there is, well, what about the the wait staff who didn't get that table that day? You know, so then what do you do? Um, so yeah, yeah, you know, it's it's hard.

SPEAKER_03

It is.

SPEAKER_00

It's hard. You know, you try to do nice things and sometimes it works, and sometimes, you know, you just you gotta do the best you can with what you got.

SPEAKER_03

Such a delight, such a pleasure to talk with you today. I know we had a reschedule, so I'm glad we were able to do it. Anybody watching or listening, how can they get in touch with you, Mary?

SPEAKER_00

Oh my goodness, I'd be delighted to hear from anybody and everybody. Um, call me, I get lonely. It's Mary at Productive Leaders.com. The website is ProductiveLeaders.com because you know, who wants an unproductive leader? And if they go to productive leaders.com forward slash free, there are a ton of business and leadership resources there for free. And here's why. I was using my website links as the cloud before we called it the cloud, and I've still done that. So there's just a bunch of resources there. And so if people are stuck on something or uh that's a good place to start. Um, and if you've you're like, oh, I wonder if Mary's got a resource on this. You know, my team is having trouble with productivity or procrastination or focus or, you know, they're just not stepping up. Um, you know, just give me a shout and I'll direct you to my free resources first. And um I've got a lot of them in different vaults and different sites. And I just love to share that. I want everybody to um just do as good a job as they can with what they've got. And if we can be any help or encouragement along the way, it's an honor.

SPEAKER_03

Absolute pleasure. Productiveleaders.com. We'll make sure to put it in the show notes. Next time I'm in the general Tennessee area, perhaps uh us and our significant others will get a cup of tea.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, we would love, we would love that. I would love to just hang out with you guys. Um, and my husband would too. We love visitors, um, introduce you to the dog. Uh-huh. We'd love it. Thank you so much, Mary. Joey, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you for listening andor viewing Joey Pins Discipline Conversations. Please share this episode with one or two of your friends who you think may benefit from the episode. Our website, www.joeepins.com. There you find lots of resources, and you could join our mailing list. Please follow us on all our social media, Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Podcast information, the video version of our podcast is on YouTube. Please subscribe. Audio is on all major podcasting platforms. Please follow them. And if you like it, please consider giving five star rating. We'd really appreciate that. Thank you again for listening or watching Joey Pinn's Discipline Conversations.