Joey Pinz Discipline Conversations

#843 Rocky Lalvani: Profit Over Revenue: Why Systems Beat Hustle 💰

• Joey Pinz • Episode 843

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💼 What if the biggest mistake business owners make is chasing revenue instead of profit?

In this thought-provoking conversation, Joey Pinz sits down with a profitability expert to explore why so many businesses struggle financially—even when sales are growing. The discussion dives deep into how simple systems, financial awareness, and intentional decision-making can transform the way entrepreneurs build wealth and run their companies.

From lessons learned through entrepreneurship, parenting, and personal transformation, this episode uncovers how systems drive consistency, how financial literacy impacts both business and life, and why many entrepreneurs unknowingly sabotage their own success.

The conversation also touches on personal growth, health, mindset, and the importance of creating structure that supports long-term success instead of relying on motivation alone.

Whether you're an entrepreneur, business owner, or someone interested in building a stronger financial future, this episode offers practical insights and powerful perspective.

✨ Top 3 Highlights

📊 Profit vs Revenue – Why focusing on the bottom line matters more than sales growth.

⚙️ Systems Create Consistency – How structured habits outperform motivation in business and life.

💡 Financial Awareness – Why understanding money is essential for employees, leaders, and entrepreneurs.

This episode blends business wisdom with life philosophy to help you think differently about success.

 

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SPEAKER_01

Rocky Lalvani. Rocky, thank you so much for your time today. Really, really enjoyed my discussion with Rocky. We started, he helps businesses understand. I mean, I keep on wanting, I want to call him the system person. I mean, he creates systems for everything. Um, he's a tree chief profitability officer. Um, we talk about how why businesses, many businesses fail, the role of um CEOs and and founders, and you know, chefs that become owners and why they fail, or engineers that become founders and and why they they fail, and what he can do to help, and what are some of the roadblocks that are there? It's the the number of failing businesses are staggering, staggering. So why do it? But just a wonderful conversation and his perspective again on on systems and how um he creates a system for everything. We do get into discussion of art versus science towards the end, but the way he talked about system and hustle and mind philosophy, it's just really, really great perspective. Thank you so much, Rocky. And thank you for watching and listening. Hi, I'm Joey Pins. And here's my 45-second introduction. After starting my business in the 90s, I started developing poor habits of eating in my diet because of working way too much. Before you know it, I found myself 340 pounds. The doctor told me if I don't lose the weight, I'm not gonna see my daughter graduate. Took the next seven months, lost 130 pounds. People think there's some secret. Ask me, how'd you lose that weight? Like there's some secret. There is no secret. How'd I lose the weight? Just one word. Discipline. I've had other successes in life, and I attribute them all to discipline. Now I'm not the king of discipline, but I believe that it can help all of us. Friends, colleagues convinced me to start a podcast. The podcast mission, how do we better ourselves and society? I talked to interesting people in health, fitness, sport, wellness, business, technology, science, art and culture. And I eventually asked them how discipline plays a role in their life. Podcast vision, growth through learning from others. Tell me about losing 50 pounds. Oh.

SPEAKER_00

So that would have been 2011, 2012. Okay. Um, I joined a mastermind group, kind of a loose mastermind group. And they're like, what do you need help with? And I'm like, I don't know. What do I really need help with? And one of the things is, you know, I've always struggled to not lose weight. No matter what I did, it just didn't work. And so they introduced me to the four-hour body, Tim Ferris. And so between that and one of the guys I paid to be a nutritionist, and we changed the way I ate, we changed the way I exercised. And over a period of time, I lost all the weight. And because I changed the way I lived, I had kept it off for the majority of the time. And then right before COVID, a whole bunch of stuff happened, and I've gained a little bit back. I've lost half of what I've gained back, but I still struggle a little in getting back to that where I had been. But I'm only about um 15 pounds over where I really want to be at this point.

SPEAKER_01

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SPEAKER_00

It's one of the parts of the very different body.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Go ahead. It's one of the most difficult things to do in life is to get rid of weight and keep it off.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I kept it off for seven years. No trouble. Um, I a lot of changes happened between 2019 and 2020, the you know, the big one. And so I think a lot of life shifts, a lot of little things all of a sudden added up. Yeah. Um, and there were other things, like I know what the things were that caused it, and now I'm working through those.

SPEAKER_01

We don't get enough credit as a society of going through that darn pandemic, do we? It was something.

SPEAKER_00

It it was, but I think for a lot of people it was a good reset. Because look at how many people went. Holy crap, look at how I'm living life. And is this really the way I want to live life? And so a lot of people made some very big life decisions, some too fast, and then they regretted it. Some permanent. I'm getting, I don't have statistics, so I don't know. Uh, but I think society has changed from that, and we're still in a battle of what is the new normal. Everyone thought it would go back to the way it was, it won't.

SPEAKER_01

You mentioned in your bio, Rocky, that you like to build things. Elaborate.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so I just by nature, like even as a kid, I just like to build stuff. But I don't like to build stuff with a um an instruction booklet. I see. So like I built my kid's swing set, a big elaborate thing, but I didn't go buy a swing set. What I did was go buy the main parts that I wanted, which was, you know, the tube slide and this slide and the swings. And then I'm like, okay, how do I build a really cool structure that works for us in our yard and how my kids want to play? So we did that. I built the bar that's over there in my house. I built this room that we're in right now. Um, I've I've redone our bathrooms and done tile and plumbing and electric. And um, if I take you up to the living room, there's a beautiful wood wall up there that I built. Uh so, but that still even goes back to uh building other types of things like financial models, or it's not just that. It's hey, and I think honestly, it's like, how do I create a system and a process that allows me to live the life I want? And how do I do it? I part of that though is we didn't have the money to do a lot of stuff when I was young, so you had to figure out how to do it without money, and so that was kind of and and that goes back to another thing I love, which is problem solving. Like, show me a problem, I'll I'll figure out how to solve it. And so it comes back to uh to that as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you mentioned as a kid, uh you didn't have much uh your parents immigrated here to the states like in their 40s. I believe you you lost your mom at age a age seven. What did those experiences teach you?

SPEAKER_00

So, you know, as a kid, when you look at something, it's just normal. You don't know that's right, any different from that. So, what I noticed when they came here was that we lived in small places and we lived a certain lifestyle, but then every couple of years we saw that lifestyle get better. But also all the other people who had immigrated when my parents did, they still had all these friends that they knew fromever. So you got to watch them do it too. And some of them had faster starts or did different things, so you saw not only did I see where we were, but I saw where people with tremendous wealth were. And so you got to see all these dichotomies within that, and people talked about money, like they talked about buying real estate, they talked about business, they talked about investing, and so those were the conversations that I naturally heard and I was interested in. So, as a kid, I probably had better conversations with adults than I did with other kids, which is weird as a kid, you like you don't fit in, but you don't realize, oh, there's a gift there that you can enjoy and and work with. And if no one tells you that, but we didn't have the internet back then, right? So we didn't we didn't know any better. Everything was limited. Um, so you're kind of walking around blind. Today it's a different world. You can see things differently, you can do things differently. And I don't think people take advantage of a lot of that.

SPEAKER_01

I heard you talk about um how you trained, or I shouldn't say trained, but how you taught your own children how to deal with money. You did give them an allowance, taught them how to spend, but it was their money and not yours. And it's you know, I'm a first generation as well, so it's teaching that next generation, it can be very, very challenging. Why do you think it's challenging? Because their view on because they're born in some comfort. My father got his first pair of shoes when he was 12, right? Right. So it's very difficult for me to relate to that. Therefore, how can my offspring possibly relate to their grandparents and relate to me at the same time? It's just a different system. So it can be a challenge to try to frame that. You can talk about it, but can they understand? I can't.

SPEAKER_00

So here's what I knew, right? I you know how I grew up. The first time my kids were on a plane, they sat in first class. Wow. So I knew there was gonna be a problem because that was one of the things that they talked about when I was a kid was hey, you see these people over here with the money, they're handing their kids money, and they're look at how their kids turn out. Not good. So I always knew that. We were always kind of taught the the three-generation rule. So dad grows up, doesn't get his first pair of shoes till he's 12, right? Gives you your first pair of shoes and sets you up for success. Now, your kids are flying first class, they like you said, not a damn clue of how to live life. And did you remove every roadblock from them? Because if you did, they don't know what adversity is. So what we did was intentionally create adversity and intentionally keep them from that surrounding group. So let's make it this way. If I go out and I buy a house today or I live in an apartment, what is my kid gonna see? The neighborhood? In a very small neighborhood, right? So if you're living in this neighborhood and everyone's living in 3,000 square foot McMansions driving fancy cars, that's what your kids' friends like, that's what they're gonna see when they go out to play. That's the attitude they're gonna learn, right? You're the average of the five people around you. That goes for kids too. What are you gonna do to teach them different? So, what we did is from a very young age, I realized something. Um, we could get Tiger Woods to show up today on this podcast, and he could teach us both about golf. I don't know about you, but it ain't gonna do a damn bit of good for me. Um, I got to swing a club, and even then I still suck. Right? So, what we did was we realized I have to put money in the kids' hands, I have to let them learn to mess up with it. And I don't want any friction with it, right? So it's like, oh, here's your allowance, but if you don't brush your teeth, you lose a quarter. And if you don't clean, like now we're creating all these rules around money, all these behaviors and thoughts, and I like I don't need any of that. Here is your money, you don't have to earn it. I'm giving it to you because I want you to learn a skill. And here are the skills we're gonna teach you. And we started with their age, inflation. Do whatever you want for a multiplier right now. So at five, they got five dollars, right? Nowadays, maybe you give them two times their age or three times, whatever it is. A certain amount went to giving away to charity, and then what was left was split 50-50, spend, save. Now, we set rules around the saving. I just want you to know that this is not money for your car. They're five, right? Where's the car? 16, 17. This is not like for college. So now we're we're beyond 18. This is money for much, much later in life that you're saving, and I'm gonna show you how it grows. And now here's your spending money, and so you have the ability to spend. Now, what we did, and you have to be very strict on this. You and your spouse have to be on the same page. So kids are really smart, they know how to win arguments, right? And they know how to never stop until they get what they want. So if one of you gives in, you're you're screwed. Um, we go to Target. My son loved Pokemon cards back then. I want Pokemon cards. Okay, you have your own money, buy it. All of a sudden, it's like, oh, now it's my money. And you would be shocked how well a five-year-old, I can tell you how many times they'd pick up a toy at Target and we'd walk around the store for half an hour. And when it was time to pay, they're like, I don't think I want this. The second thing, though, is now we use that to layer in the lessons. Okay, we got Pokemon cards over here. Let's go do some math. I'm gonna make up numbers. Three Pokemon cards is five dollars, right? 10 Pokemon cards is ten dollars. Now, mind you, they've only got a few dollars in their pocket. And back then eBay was big. So, like, let's go look on eBay. Oh, look, you can get 150 cards for $40. But you're gonna have to wait because eBay would take two weeks to ship. That you know, now it's faster, but and so now they can do the math and go, well, do I want to wait and save and then buy it? Or do I want to fulfill my gratification now? And and then you let them do it. And who cares what mistakes they make at this point? But then you have conversations later. So when the kids would watch TV, a commercial come on. I go, You have that toy, don't you? They're like, Yeah. I go, isn't anything like that commercial? They're like, no. I'm like, see, all they want is your money. Don't be fooled by those people. Or they might have bought something, and three months later, I'm like, you know, you went through all that trouble to buy it. What happened to it? You don't care anymore. Why? And so everything becomes a lesson. And you're doing this at five, at six, at seven, at eight, at nine, at ten, at eleven, twelve, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, going into college. Hey, you're smart enough to go to college. You should be smart enough to figure out how to pay for it. Figure it out. Let's do a val like now. You got to teach with it, but they're pulling instead of you pushing. This college is X. How do you get a discount? Oh, if you have good grades and a good SAT score, you're gonna get a scholarship at this college, but not at that college. Because we're not getting any financial aid. I'm like, you know, they look at me and go, huh? We're not giving you anything. I'm like, excuse me, I'm not paying you 300 grand because it just ain't worth it. And my kid, look, we I'm like, I told my kids, I don't care if you get an Ivy League, figure out how to pay for it because I'm not paying for that. Um, but it it throughout those ages, you're constantly having conversations. So they learn not to fall for commercialism, they don't care about brands, they spend when they love something and they don't when they don't. Like my son will walk into Nobu. Do you know you're familiar with Nobu? They're like, What do you want? He goes, Bring me the best. Right? And he's like, I'm here at Nobu, I'm gonna enjoy it. But when he leaves Nobu, he's walking out in cheap clothes, yeah, driving an old car. Now he's 23 and he's loaded. Like he's got he's got more wealth than most people, most people 30 years ahead of him. But he knows how to make the choices. My daughter knows how to make the choices. They're like, hey, do we need to make that choice? Is it worth the spend? But it was 15 uh years of training to get them to that point. Parents wait till the kids are way too like because my daughter went to school in New York City, and like she she that's when like the lights went on. She goes, but these kids came to school in New York City knowing that they were gonna live in an apartment, not a dorm. They don't know how to cook, they don't know how to shop, they don't even know how to comparison shop, they don't even know how to budget for stuff. She goes, Oh, you taught us skills that now they realize they're because that's not stuff that comes up in polite conversation, right? You don't notice it until you start being with 22-year-olds or 24-year-olds, and they're talking about stuff, and you it just doesn't compute for you because you learned it a whole different way.

SPEAKER_01

It's fascinating how those skills end up turning uh are good for the business world as well. What's a tree chief profitability officer?

SPEAKER_00

So what's the purpose of business? It depends on the business. No, it doesn't. Really? Yeah. The purpose of business is very simple to make money, and I say that because if you don't make money, all those other things you were gonna say don't happen. I want to create jobs for the community. Okay, go work for a poor person and see how much you get paid. Right? I want to create a high-quality eating experience because I I love good food. Okay, do that with no money. Do that where you're losing 10 grand a month. How long are you gonna be in business? I want to create a culture that allows this. Well, guess what? When you have a bank account full of money, you get to live your culture. When your bank account has no cash for payroll, your values go out the door and your checkbook rules. And you see that in big companies. Oh, we got to fire all these people. The the thing on the wall said we care about people, but yet, you know, money rules it. So the purpose of business is to make money so that you can do all those wonderful things you want to do. This is not about screwing people over, which is where I I think people get it wrong. They think if if I say the purpose of business is to make money, that means I'm greedy and horrific. No, I can't pay people well if I don't make money. That's it. And so if the purpose of business is to make money, whose job in it in the company to make sure you make money? So if I'm opening a restaurant, I'm not opening a restaurant because I want to run a business. I'm opening a restaurant because I'm a great chef and I want to create an experience. Okay. You go do what you do best, but if you price the food wrong, if your food costs and your labor costs or your rent or all these other things are out of alignment, you're going to do what most businesses do, which is fail in five years. Half of all businesses don't make it five years. So you know why? Because most of them didn't make money. See, when you have money, you don't have problems because money solves most problems. Sure, you know, you have cancer, uncurable. I can't solve that. But if you have money, you can solve most of what we consider problems. And so let's unabashedly say if I'm going to have a business, the purpose of my business is to make money so that I can do all these wonderful things that I choose to do. And that's the goal. And so I help business owners do that because I love building financial models that make sense. And when you do the math, and this is not fancy math, this is like you don't have to be smarter than a fifth grader math. This is really basic stuff. And you start doing it, you start to see, oh, if I sell a steak at X, I might be losing money. But if I sell it at Y, I can make money. Or if if I do it certain other ways, then that's where the opportunity is. So you go back to McDonald's, like the value meal. The whole purpose is to drive up the average transaction cost. So they they might have a loss leader item. They have that dollar menu. Maybe it's the two dollar menu these days. I'm gonna lose money on the two dollar item or the dollar item, but if you buy a drink, I make money. So how do we create the model to do that to draw people in that makes it work and allows us to be competitive with the burger joint across the street? Or you could choose an entirely different model, which is five guys. Five guys go, hey, we're not even playing in that market. We're gonna charge a price way up here. Yeah, and we're gonna charge and we're gonna deliver a premium service. Great, do it. Provide the experience for that, and you're gonna get a certain amount of clients who say yes. You look at um Chick-fil-A, Closed Sundays, these are our values, and they do it, and they make more money than any other franchise per location. But what do they do? They hire better people, they pay them well, they train them, and so that's their model, that's their values. They figured out how to price, build, and build a business model that allows you to do that. Costco built a business model that allows them to serve well compared to Sam's Club, which serves a different client and has different kinds of employees and different values. Not to say one is better than the other, that's your choice. But build the model that actually works, not what your gut says.

SPEAKER_01

Why do most well, why do many entrepreneurs chase revenue instead of profit?

SPEAKER_00

Because revenue is easy, right? I can see my ra I just closed the deal today for half a million bucks. Great, was it profitable? I don't know yet. When will you know? Well, our accounting system doesn't exactly tell me if this deal is profitable. No, it doesn't. But do you have a system that does? No. Or by the time they find their PL report, it's three months later and it's a month and a half behind. Do you care what happened 60 days ago? No, that's an afterthought. And if they don't have good accounting, which most people don't, and the other thing with accounting is you can play all the games you want. I can get your accounting sheets to say whatever you want. L O Enron. Um enough to tell their accountant I want things in a way that makes sense to me. And most accountants aren't there to show you how to be profitable. They're there, fill out your tax return. A whole different purpose. And so they put the wrong people in the wrong seats, doing the wrong job, and then they wonder why they're struggling. They're like, hmm.

SPEAKER_01

Why do it? Why do it, Rocky? I mean, 50% fail after five years. I think it's 80% fail after a year or something like that. And many of them are engineers or trade, you know, they're they're cooks or they're engineers, and they start a business with that. So they don't have the sales skills, they don't have the financial skills. I mean, why why do it?

SPEAKER_00

Because working in a job side. I mean, think about it. I most people, when you're in a job, you're doing what you're told. And here's the truth of it. Most employees know better. The problem is nobody listens to them. Like the best companies are the ones that listen to their frontline employees, and they build that culture. So I know right now there's an airline that is no longer loved, Southwest. Yeah. But when they started, they built a culture where they listened. And everybody worked together because they understood one thing. So here's what Southwest understood. We get paid when the airplane's in the air. The airplane's not in the air, we don't get paid. We don't get paid for airplanes sitting on the ground. So we are going to do everything we can to keep an airplane in the air. We're going to load it fast, we're going to get the bags on, we're going to get everything moving, and everyone's going to do whatever it takes to get the airplanes in the air and keep them in the air. And that was their culture. That's changed. Um, but you have to listen to the front employee that goes, hey, we could load the bags faster if we did it this way. Oh, that's a good idea. Let's try it. It failed. Oh, we did an experiment that didn't work out. Thanks for at least bringing the idea. Now we know we don't need to do that. Not, oh, you're an idiot. You you what do you know? There's too much ego in corporate at the management level. And so that's usually the problem. They everyone creates their fiefdom. So you want to talk about big business? Here's the most surprising truth. There's a book behind me by Jonathan Burns. He's an MIT professor. It's called Um, I think Islands of Profit in a Sea of Red Ink. The average Fortune 500 company. So these are big smart companies with big accounting departments and everything. 20 to 30% of what they do generates 80 to over 100% of the profit. 30 to 40% of what they do breaks even, and 30% loses money. Roughly. So here's my question to you. You're a manager, and you may not even know the numbers of your division because they don't share the financials, or you don't know how to read them because that's not your thing, but your division's the one that's losing 30% of the money. Are you going to raise your hand and go, hey, I'm the loser one? You should get rid of us. No. If you're the CEO and you went to Wall Street and go, hey, here's what we're going to do next year. We're going to slash sales by 70%. And we're going to quadruple our profit. Guess who's fired? Hmm. I'm going to get rid of 50% of my workforce. Wait a minute. That means all of us managers lose our job. That's not cool. And me as the head manager, oh, I don't have a team of a thousand. I have a team of 300. Well, that doesn't look good on my resume. Wrong incentives, wrong behaviors, no clarity. Nobody's actually sitting down and saying, what are the outcomes? Do they go together? What adds up to what? Unless you're a company that puts that into their culture. And so I work with small businesses, and one of the things I tell them is you have to teach your people about their personal finances. Because if they don't understand their personal finances, how in the world are they going to understand your business finances and how to help you make money in business? They don't understand the concept of, oh, I screwed up that baking that steak, so I threw it in the garbage. Okay, you just threw a 20-pound, $20 piece of meat in the garbage. Like there goes the profit margin on the next four stakes, but they can't figure that out. They don't know. Think about the trades, right? Cutting wood and making mistakes. If they don't understand the finances of it, how are they going to help you with your business to make money? But in teaching them now they're financially smarter. So the first thing that happens is they replace the tires on their car so they don't get a flat coming in. They show up to work, right? They can afford better child care so that you know they've got less issues, so they become better employees. They're not sitting at work financially strained. They're like, hey, I feel good this morning. I'm not worried about my home life. So it makes them better employees. How many companies do you know that teach their kids, their people about finances? Some do. The majority don't. School didn't teach anyone about money. Anyone learn anything about money in school? I have an MBA. They barely taught me anything about money in my MBA program. And so these are the problems that we've created. And nobody looks at any of this stuff holistically. They don't look at how do all the pieces go together.

SPEAKER_01

What if discipline wasn't about punishment, but about unlocking your best self? I spent two and a half years writing discipline for greatness, because discipline changed my life. And I know it can change yours too. This isn't theory. Inside, you'll find real practical steps you can use immediately to focus better, build stronger habits, reduce stress, accomplish your goals, and bring more balance to your life. Whether you're trying to get healthier, improve your career, or simply feel more control. This book gives you the framework. Start today. Grab your copy of Discipline for Greatness at joeypins.com slash book. Thank you. You mentioned the Fortune 500. I learned recently 50% of the Fortune 500 was not there 20 years ago, and 50% will not be there in another 20 years.

SPEAKER_00

80% will not be there in another 20 years. So, you know, if you're changing CEOs that fast, how the hell do you build anything? Right. How do you build culture? How do you build by the time the CEO shows up and figures out the business and decides what to do, he's halfway out the door.

SPEAKER_01

Also mentioned starting businesses. I remember when I started mine, Rocky, back in the 90s, and my friends would come up to me and say, Must be nice not having a boss. And I would always say, I have more bosses now than I've ever had. Every one of my clients is my boss. To a degree, the vendors, the banks, to some degree, the employees. The idea of kind of going into business and not having to answer anyone is not a good one. Thoughts?

SPEAKER_00

You forgot the one boss who's the most critical son of a bitch. The government? No. The mirror. How many negative thoughts do you have about yourself and your business and your screw-ups? Why'd I do that? How come I can't fix this? I can't believe I made that mistake. Why is this person holding me hostage? Why was I crazy to start this business? Why do I tolerate this?

SPEAKER_01

What's wrong with me? I remember we had we had acquired a couple of companies and we were up to about 50 employees. And I remember we had a picnic, and um people, employees were bringing their grandchildren, Rocky. And I remember meeting grandchildren. I'm thinking to myself, I started this business in my father's garage, and now I'm affecting grandchildren. It scared me. I remember after that picnic, going straight to the office and saying, Wow, I've I've got to do something, I've got to make this better. I'm affecting grandchildren. What have I done here? It's uh it's shocking, it was shocking.

SPEAKER_00

It is there, there's impact, and and that's where I think a lot of people don't see the whole picture. We live in silos, and so you just don't see anything beyond your little silo. And that's why I think people don't struggle. I mean, going back to the first question you had about weight loss, right? You think about it. I always say, hey, weight loss starts at the grocery store. It starts about how you go through the grocery store with your cart. Are you on the outsides or are you on the inside? Because if you're on the inside, you're screwed, right? You bring that home, there goes your whole plan. And so these are the things that we do. We don't think through the consequences of our actions, and that's what happens to me. Little bit of variations get you nowhere near the results. It's it's tiny things. I'm back with a I know how to lift, I lift heavyweights all the time, and yet I have a trainer again. Why? Because I realize I've probably gotten a little lazy and a little bit off. And so my trainer is helping me. We're making little changes. Going back to Tiger Woods, like my with my trainer, yeah, I can improve what I do in a place that I know the basics and want to improve. And so having the right person, the right trainer for where I'm at and what I need is helpful because we we make little bitty changes, and little bitty changes add up dramatically. I'm not putting in more time or more effort, I'm just positioned differently, I'm approaching the bar differently, and I'm just setting myself differently. Same work, multitude more and results.

SPEAKER_01

In your experience, Rocky, what do business owners spend too much money on?

SPEAKER_00

Every single one has their own thing. Um, you have a lot of vanity business owners, meaning they buy things for vanity purposes. Um, the fancy office, you know, in the trades, we always make fun of the truck. We go, the nicer the truck, the the greater the likelihood of bankruptcy. Well, think about it. You know, these days, a good truck fully wrapped, hundred grand, right? So if that truck's a hundred grand, and why did I buy that truck? Because my accountant said, Oh, you buy a truck, you don't have to pay taxes. Remind me to tell you why he said that. That hundred grand truck, if I have a 10% profit margin, means I need to sell a million dollars just to pay for the truck. I haven't made a penny. That's a vanity purchase. Why did my CPA tell me to go buy a truck at last December? Because he didn't bother to look at my taxes all year long. And now I've got a $50,000 tax bill. And the fastest way for him to get rid of a $50,000 tax bill is to tell you to buy a truck. You can't afford that you've got to kill yourself so that you don't yell at me because of your $50,000 tax bill. Oh, okay. I saved you all this money on taxes. Thank you. You saddled me with no cash flow and this freaking albatross of a truck that I've got to kill myself to make a million bucks to pay for.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, there's some reality there, isn't there? Really have to uh I heard you say what uh top line is vanity, bottom line is sanity.

SPEAKER_00

What is the yeah, top line is vanity, right? Revenue is vanity, uh, profit is sanity, cash flow is reality. And so here's the reality of the situation. Um, if you don't have cash, you go bankrupt. You you can't pay people, and the number one thing that will shut your business down is not having paychecks when they're due. Yeah, and you can run a business with millions in revenue, with a million in profit, and still have no cash, and it will shut you down because they didn't build the business model correctly to turn their business into a cash-making machine, which is what we do. You ask me, like, what do I that's what we do? We make sure that the business model actually produces the cash to make payroll so you can take care of the grandkids. It's all tied together, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

What's the difference between a leader and a manager, Rocky?

SPEAKER_00

I think a leader sets a vision, right? Um a manager is probably more in the weeds trying to manage people or outcomes, and you know, I'm gonna be honest with you. My spreadsheets behave, people don't, like, so don't bring me in for your people problems. I I think we've created this corporate structure that worked wonderful a hundred years ago. Put a person at a machine, manage the machine, and the person that's not the way the world works anymore, and so we've seen the corporate structures flatten, and AI, I think, is is flattening the top end of the structure, too. So I don't know what the new world looks like. Um, but I think we're gonna go back to an economy that is actually more like a Third world economy, and here's what I mean by a third world economy: not that no one has money in a third world economy. Everyone's an entrepreneur, right? Everyone learns how to sell their processes, their things. Like we're here, we're you already see the gig economy, same concept. And so rather than you trying to manage an accounting department, hey, I'm just going to hire somebody who knows how to run an accounting department. And maybe that person has then got, you know, six gig workers in another part of the world doing a lot of the transaction work. And if they're good at it, great. And if they're not, we find people who are better at it. I don't have to manage them. Like I with my sub with my tradespeople, I prefer they use subcontractors sometimes. And the reason I prefer they run subcontractors is they don't know how to manage that part of the project. If you run a subcontractor, the sub knows how to do that and do it well. And so now you're you're building all these little businesses that are all tied to each other. It could be one man, it could be 10 men, women, whatever. But I think you're going to go back to away from the big, big company and back to the smaller, more nimble, more opportunic places that are out there. And even if you look at the world of drinks, I mean, you know, 50 years ago, it was Coke or Pepsi. You go into a store today, Coke and Pepsi are a tiny sliver, those two specific. Now there's a million drinks, and a lot of those drinks are because somebody figured out how to make an iced tea or make of this or make of that. All small little entrepreneurs building small little regional or local brands that grow and maybe they grow and they get big. And but you know, I've worked with with people who've actually built um uh liquor-based products. They didn't actually do the packaging, they went to someone who was great at packaging and creating the thing. So, you know, they handle all that. Then someone else is handling the distribution, someone else is handling the marketing. They don't bring it all in, they have different companies doing that. And I think in the future, when you've got that, it's much more nimble. Plus, you may not need each of those things at a full-time level all the time. Big companies might, but then I think they get stuck in those silos and they're they're losing money on half their stuff and they don't even know where.

SPEAKER_01

Is there something, Rocky, you believed firmly in 10 years ago that you no longer believe?

SPEAKER_00

Um I've changed a lot in the last 10 years, and and most of that is the inner work. I I'll say this because the inner work I do is actually built on the concept not of adding more, but of subtracting, I've probably forgotten what that was because those beliefs are no longer there. And so it it's not even like you notice they're gone, they just disappear. And and that's a big part of it. So 10 years ago, I was still an employee. Now I run my own business, and it's night and day the way I look at how to generate income. Because now I know how to hunt. Right? I don't I'm not reliant on somebody else. I now see how much more value I have because I was in a system that kept me constrained, that was doing silly things and they wouldn't listen worth a damn. Nor did they actually appreciate my skills. And nor could I get into a position where my skills would flourish because there were other political things that they didn't want people to know that I'm the 30% that's not making money or not being most, you know, everybody wants their status quo in the way it is, so I don't do well in those structures. I stayed in corporate because corporate gave me a good amount of money and a lot of freedom, which I don't think most people have in corporate, but I did. And so I got all my stuff outside of work, not inside of work. And then when I no longer had the great atmosphere, it was time to go. And I knew it was eventually going to come. And then I had the the courage, and I spent a lot of time figuring out that fit of what are my skills? Like it never dawned on me. For the life of me, I'm a financial guy, it was always a financial guy, like how to build, how to wealth. It never dawned on me that business owners didn't understand the business of business. And when that happened, that turned a switch for me. I'm like, how do you run a business and not understand the business of it? Oh, you're a chef, you're worried about the cooking. Huh. We got to show you how to run. And that is a skill that that people are. So you have to realize something. And this is where I struggle because I was going to try and build a financial business that I was okay with. I'm not going to go sell for some financial company because they want you to sell crap, and I couldn't. I it just wouldn't work with my value set. Um, and most people will pay you a lot of money to teach them how to make money this weekend. But nobody wants to pay you to learn how to make money and be wealthy 10 years from today. Everyone's got a lottery mentality, not a long-term, hey, if I follow this plan, I'm guaranteed success, versus I'm gonna keep trying to win the lottery this weekend. And so we just didn't have market fit. And then eventually I figured out market fit, and that's when things took off. But it took a lot of understanding and looking and watching to figure that out. Some people see it naturally. Me, I'm a little slow with some of that stuff.

SPEAKER_01

I saw a conversation recently. Somebody asked Warren Buffett, you know, your model, the way you do things is so simple. Why don't more people follow it? And he said it's easy because it takes time. It doesn't get you rich this weekend, it just takes time. That's why it takes time. Your point exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's exactly what Warren said. And so here's the other problem you face, and no one will tell you this. Life is pretty simple. Doing simple is hard. How hard is it to lose weight? It's pretty simple. Eat less, move more.

SPEAKER_01

The concept is simple.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, wait, no, I don't want to eat less and move more. Can you give me a pill? Can I give you a machine? Can can you, you know, let's go get the Thigh Master, because that's gonna be the thing, right? It's just human nature that and that's the part, and I told you, I people the logic doesn't always flow from me.

SPEAKER_01

You work with small businesses, Rocky. Who won't you work with?

SPEAKER_00

Um, so for me, we believe in the hell yes or no, right? So it we have to be aligned with the type of business owner it is, right? It's I don't want to work with a business owner whose sole purpose is to sell crap to make money. Like that's soul sucking. Um, I I want to work with someone who's who's willing to listen and have a conversation. It doesn't mean you have to do everything I say. I don't care if you do or don't, but we're gonna have a conversation about it and we're gonna figure out a way forward, and you're gonna show up on time for the call. Like most business owners don't know how to show up on time every time. They they have to want to look at the financials. 80% of business owners are allergic to the financials. So if you don't want to learn about it, and and you've got a whole bunch of money scripts working in the background that are preventing you from doing that, and beliefs, you're not coachable, like I'm out. Like, it's not my thing, and and that eliminates a lot of people. Yeah, a lot, a lot of people. Ego, whatever. They don't want to be held accountable. Okay, whatever.

SPEAKER_01

I is there a question you wish more people would ask you, Rocky?

SPEAKER_00

I don't think it's a question, I think it's more I wish people would take action. People don't like people say they want to do X, but they don't do anything about it. People don't even take a moment to think about their life. Like one of the things that really shocks me, because one of the things I will offer to all my clients is I will walk you through a life plan. If you'd like to do it, we can go through this process of sitting down and looking at every part of your life and defining what you want from it. People are scared of that. And I don't know why. They're afraid to sit down and say, This is what I want from life. This is where I'm at. What do I need to do to get there? And what steps can I take action on it? Building wealth, it's easy. It's really not hard for people to build appropriate wealth for them. What I mean by that is somebody making 60,000 a year can build wealth at a level that's comfortable for someone at 60,000. Someone at 300,000 can build wealth for someone that's comfortable at 300 and so forth. They're just zeros. But yet they refuse to. And people go, oh, I mean 60 grand, I can't build wealth. Yeah, well, tell me why your neighbor makes 50 grand and he's just as happy as you. What are we doing with the 10 grand? 10 grand, 10, six years. You got you got a year of salary set aside. Now you have choices. Now things can start to multiply and compound and start to build. But people just they don't think and they don't take action. They just follow along like good little, I don't know. Followers. Followers. Is that the word? Yeah, sure. We'll use whatever word you're happy with.

SPEAKER_01

So I started my business in the uh in the 90s, uh, Rocky. And I was working way too hard and you know, 14, 16-hour days. You're no stranger to this, and uh developing poor eating habits, not you know, exercising as much as I had been. And next thing I know, I'm in front of the doctor, and she tells me I'm at 340 pounds. So I had gained this terrible amount of weight. I knew I was getting big, didn't think I was that big. The next thing she said, you know, pretty much changed my life. She said, if you don't lose this weight, you're not gonna see your daughter graduate. So my daughter had just been born. So I'm driving home, I'm punching the steering wheel, right? I mean, I this is my pie hole, damn it, right? I did this to myself. I can abuse myself all I want, but it's much bigger than me now. I've got this family, I've got this beautiful, beautiful girl that somehow I'm responsible for you know bringing into this earth. So next six, seven months, lost about 120, 130 pounds, and I kept it off. So you can't look at these things as finishing lines, right? These are lifelong changes. And when I tell people this, they always say, What's your secret? What did you do? And I said, Look, it's just discipline, right? Motivation, routine, focus. How does discipline play a role in your life, Rocky?

SPEAKER_00

So I build systems around everything, and the system creates the discipline, all right? System creates the discipline.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So Monday, Wednesday, Friday are gym days. I know Monday morning when I get up, I'm going to the gym because that's the time allotted for it. When I go to the gym, I have an app. The app tells me it's Monday. This is the routine. And so I just do what the app says, and it's done. Now, when I go to the grocery store, I have an Excel sheet. It's designed in the order of the grocery store. I just follow the Excel sheet. I buy the things that we checked off for that week. I'm in and out, and I'm not looking around and being entertained. I'm just following the system of what I need to do. If there are things that I need to do and I can't do it at this moment, I create a task, I put it on my calendar in an open slot. And when that time comes, I do the work. I'm like, okay, I have the time. This is on my task list. I do my tasks. I have two podcasts, right? I work with a VA. I know when my episode is because it's on my calendar. As soon as I record it, I move something on an Excel sheet. My VA knows it's been recorded and everything gets done. And he keeps me on task, say, hey, you need to approve this, this, and this. Okay, I'll do it. Like you create the systems that create the consistency to be able to do those things. The thing is, you have to create the right system. And I don't want to create a system because it's just easier for me to do it in five minutes than to spend 30 minutes creating a system. But that 30-minute system that you took the time to create, even in your business, then allows you not to spend the five or 10 minutes all the time. Then things happen automatically. Then you're not going to the gym going, what should I do today? I wonder if I should go over there. I'm already done. You're still staring, right? I know that this is what happens at these times, and I just go do it. Our food is ready for the week. Like, I know I need to eat high protein. So make sure there's enough high protein options ready to eat with the least amount of friction. So we take care of that. On the weekend, we take care of the meals for the week. So I know I've got the flexibility to do it. And so it when you create the space, the time, the frameworks, the calendar, like building wealth. I didn't realize this till much later in life. The reason I got rich is because when I was 22 years old, I put systems in place that every time money came in, they went certain places. Stocks, bonds, this and that. And every so often I just turned the system up a little as I made more money. I didn't do anything. I didn't think about, oh, I gotta put money over here. I got to save. No. I said, okay, this is how much money I have to live on. And this money keeps flowing to where it's going. And it just kept growing. It was a system. It didn't require me to do anything once it was set up. They took all the money and put it to all the different places. Whatever it is, I like my my daughter used to laugh at me because I'm going, oh, that's not a problem. You just need a system for that. She goes, that's all you ever say. I go, because that's all you ever need. Right? So, how do you create the systems to get done what you need without you having to do a lot? And in today's world of AI and technology, you can create a lot of systems to be able to do a lot of different things. Just show up and do what you're supposed to do at the appointed time, but not think. That's the problem. If you keep showing up and now I have to think, that's difficult. If I show up and I already know what has to be done and I have a checklist, it's real easy to follow the system. Right? When you get on that airplane at Southwest, that pilot's been there for 25 years. You know what he has? A checklist. He follows the damn checklist. He has a system. That's why airplanes don't fall out of the sky. Do doctors have a checklist? Hell no. Why do you think there's so many medical errors all the time? Because there's no damn checklist. There's no system. There's no process that everybody follows, improves, and makes better. If we did that for medicine, what they did for pilots, you half of medicine would go away. What motivates you, Rocky? What motivates me? That's a good question. Uh the kids did for a long time. Um they are great motivators, aren't they? So that was also another shift. Once they leave, now you got to find your new things. Um, at one point, money motivated me tremendously. It doesn't anymore. Uh today I think it's making impact, helping people. Like, I just love helping business owners make money because I know that when they make money, the grandkids are doing okay, right? It's that downstream impact. And so, how do I help people in a way that's fun for me that will create a bigger impact than a smaller impact, right? Like if I do a one to one, that's okay, but how do I do a one to a hundred where my one turns into a hundred? How do you make it do that? Now, I'm not looking, I didn't come on here and say I want to help a million business owners. I don't. I mean, sure, that'd be nice, but that if I can help 10 or 20 this month, 20 this month, that's good. I don't need to do all of that. Just so I think there's that. I think there's a whole spiritual side of being content with life. Um, I think it's a part that we've that pendulum has swung pretty far away from that. I think it's coming back. Um, and I think part of that is because religion got in the way of God. Too many people, again, back to ego and rules and things, they forgot about what they were doing. Um so you know, finding that inner peace is always the thing, and and knowing how much is enough in any part, like, hey, that's enough. I'm good. I don't need more. I'm content with what I have. So that that contentment's a big part of it. I don't I don't need to change the world, I just need to change me. It comes back to the mirror.

SPEAKER_01

So given your motivation, Rocky of impact and contentment. How are you how do you measure uh success?

SPEAKER_00

I that's a hard thing to measure. So really, I think really how success gets measured is am I happy with how my day went? Am I happy with how my week went? Is it in alignment with what I said I wanted? Like I said, I've got a life plan. I know what I want, right? So that's a big exercise people should do. And I think that might be part of the problem with the the life. Life plan is you start with the end in mind. Write your eulogy, and now go live a life that makes that eulogy come to life. So you know how do I measure success? That when I drop dead, my eulogy is fulfilled.

SPEAKER_01

Is there things in your life you don't systematize?

SPEAKER_00

There's probably things in my life that I haven't yet built a system for. I'd say I I'm trying to think, is there things in my life? I mean how about a date with your wife? We don't currently have a system for that. We did at one point, but now it's more because life is busy, sure. It's more like, hey, we haven't been out in a few weeks. Sh do you want to go out? So we do do that, but that's not as formatted. Um but we both have time freedom. We're not like we both work out of the house, so we see each other throughout the day. Um, we work on things together, and then we work on things apart. And so, yeah, if if something like if there's nothing going on this week, then we might say, Hey, do you want to go out? But the problem with that goes back to your diet. We both have the same problem. You go out to eat, we both gain two to three pounds. I'm like, and it's because the food is crap. Yes, right. There's actually a study that says eating out increases your mortality through the roof. And we have money, we go to nice restaurants, it doesn't matter. No, and so the we're struggling with how do you do stuff without stay healthy doing stuff that's healthy. What the other thing we do though is we plan our fun around our business as well. So you know, if I go on a business trip, she comes with me. She goes on a business thing, I go with her a lot of times, and so and then we build margin into it. So we're doing things together, we're doing things apart. Um, but we're doing it with intentionality.

SPEAKER_01

We've been married for 30 years, so congratulations. Yeah. Is there anything in the last month or so, Rocky, you changed your mind on?

SPEAKER_00

In the last month or so. Um, there's nothing that I I would say I change my mind on, per se, but I found something new that I'm doing. So have you ever heard of dry needling? No, no, so um, I have tight muscles, I I hold on to stuff. A lot of that has to do with childhood stuff that I'm still cleaning out. And what this does, they it's kind of like acupuncture, but uh instead of the needle sitting in there, they literally go into your your muscles and they poke these needles that cause them to release and increase blood flow. Wow, and so it I'm working on my range of motion, that's part of why I have a trainer, and I struggle with certain movements because they've been stuck the way they've been for so long. And this has really helped to open up my shoulders even further, open up my hips, open up. So I'm just working on how do I open stuff up considerably more. Um actually, we can talk about a subject that maybe you don't normally talk about plant medicine. You ever have a conversation in that area? I sure have. Okay. Um I think for most people that is it's the gut punch of the mirror to say, hey, here's who you are today, and here's who you thought you were gonna be, and here's your wake-up call. What do you want to do about it? And I think for a lot of people, it creates it, it it removes all the barriers to truly see yourself. And then you gotta go do the work. Like it's not like it's not people all want a quick fix, right? This is not a quick fix. This is like a holy smack me in the face and show me what I gotta work on for the next whatever amount of time, how it all kind of comes together.

SPEAKER_02

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01

Rocky, it occurred it occurs to me your your system, uh, you know, the way you create systems for everything, you're very I'm gonna use the word science, right? There's just there's just a lot of logic there. Do you ever let your gulp, your gut, make a decision? Does art ever influence a decision that you make?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, but not like a lot of people probably do. And that's the that's kind of the part that I'm working on is opening up decisions to go more from the heart and the gut than from the logic side. Because I'm really good at the logic side.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, you are, yes.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and so the work is to open up the other side to have more of that yin and yang together to make better decisions and to do that. So that that's literally been the journey of the last few years, is a realizing that it was so much here, because that's just my normal. Yeah. And then saying, Oh, look at this whole other side that you buried that you need to unbury and do more of. And that comes back to the muscle thing, too. Like everything's tied together, the muscles are tight because of that. How do you loosen that all and get um more into that space? And so that's a big part of it. And along with that, we're also working on longevity. So, not that I'm gonna live forever, but really the longevity for me, what that means is health span. I want to be a healthy 80 or 85 years old, and then drop dead one day, right? I don't want 20 years of decline, and then, you know, it's it's oh, you're just getting old, suck it up and live with it. No, thank you. I want to be you see these old people that are fully active and alive and happy and vibrant, and then you see people on a walker. And and I just had a conversation here at the neighbors this weekend. I'm like, you're all gonna be in walkers, you know. Oh, I want one floor living. Like, oh no, you want steps. Like, you need to move and live and do these things. Um, so those are the areas that we're moving on, just kind of what you brought up. Yeah, we're moving to more gut, more heart, and more health.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so the art versus science, has there ever been a case where you you're hiring a person or deciding to take on a client and all the numbers look good, but just something about him or her just doesn't work with you and you overrule that way?

SPEAKER_00

I will. I I do pick up signals like that. Yeah, I am I am less likely to pick up that signal than somebody else might be. So here's how that usually works in our household. My wife is all the way on that side. I see. So literally, we can go out to an event. I I remember we went out to an event, and we're sitting in one of the sky boxes of this sports thing, right? And it's teeny. Like, I turn around to get to the bar, get two glasses of wine, I turn back around. This has been two and a half minutes, and my wife is like, meet so-and-so, and she's telling me her life story. I'm like, what just happened? I was gone for you know, and and that's just the way my wife is. So I think together we bring the yin and yang together, and I think that's why together we do well in business and in life, because we we bring our thing and we're good about understanding the other persons. So she's the one who's gonna go, yeah, stay away from that. Um, I think I've learned how to do it not through the heart, but through systems. What are the red flags? Oh, that look at the that behavior. That's a red flag behavior, and so yeah, I'm sometimes I will, but it is there are times where it will come through. There's other times where it's I think a lot of people, others are probably wired very different, where it will come through much easier, and part of that I think is a protection on my side. Do you meditate or journal? I I do meditate, I do a lot of breath work. Um, I am not as much of a journaler, I am much more of a talker. So it writing is harder for me. And getting my thoughts out part of the reason is I think about four times faster than I write. And so it's easier for me to have a conversation with somebody that goes deep and to work through something than it is for me to process it writing-wise. Um, but what I have done is had amazing conversations with AI that help show me patterns in myself that I am unaware of. So it will bring you an awareness. Um, it will also help you understand the nuances that I may not pick up. Right? So, like, I one time I asked AI a question. I'm like, why the hell do people drive in the left lane at 65 miles an hour when everyone is passing them on the right and they're just be and it gave me like eight reasons. I go, I don't understand how people can be like that, but okay, now I understand why they do what they do, right? It's it's looking at life through somebody else's lens. See, I grew up looking at everything through my lens, and I thought the whole world looked at the world through my lens. I didn't realize how many other lenses people looked at the world through. And now I'm like, oh, that's why they they're looking at it through a different lens, and then I'm like, oh, there's no logic in that lens. That's just crazy. But I can now let go of it. I don't have to fix everything anymore. Like now I'm just like, you want help with that? No, bye. Like, I don't I don't feel like I have to fix so that going back to business, right? Who don't I want to work with? People who don't want help. You want help with that? No. Okay, bye. I know you're gonna blow up. Not my problem. I don't feel compelled to fix it.

SPEAKER_01

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SPEAKER_00

So the main website for the business side is profitcomes first.com. And if you go there and you want to see the other podcast under podcasts, you can find both podcasts. One is hey, how do I make money in business? The other is much more the softer side of life, and how do you create harmony and all the things that you want? And how do you do these different things? Like everything we talked about today, deep conversations all around it.

SPEAKER_01

Make sure to put it in the show notes too. You're on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and X, and you're all over the place. Next time I'm in the uh greater Pennsylvania area, maybe we'll get together and have a cup of tea. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks so much, Rocky. Thank you for having me. Oh, wait, can we do one thing? Okay. If your listeners enjoyed today and they get value from you, would you all do him a favor? Would you just hit the like button? Show a little love, be nice, maybe leave a review, tell a friend. I don't care if you share this episode, just share the podcast, right? This way you can have better conversations with the people around you. Thanks so much, Rocky.

SPEAKER_01

You'll be well. You too. Thank you for listening and/or viewing Joey Pins Discipline Conversations. Please share this episode with one or two of your friends who you think may benefit from the episode. Our website, www.joepins.com. There you find lots of resources, and you could join our mailing list. Please follow us on all our social media: Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Podcast information, the video version of our podcast is on YouTube. Please subscribe. Audio is on all major podcasting platforms. Please follow them. And if you like it, please consider giving five star rating. Would really appreciate that. Thank you again for listening or watching Joey Pin's Discipline Conversations.