Joey Pinz Discipline Conversations

#852 Doug Kreitzberg: 🔐 Cyber Risk, Leadership & Intentional Living

• Joey Pinz • Episode 852

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🧠 What happens when creativity, technology, and risk management collide?

In this fascinating episode of Joey Pinz Conversations, Joey Pinz sits down with cybersecurity entrepreneur Doug Kreitzberg, founder of SeedPod Cyber. Doug’s journey is anything but traditional — starting in theater and playwriting, transitioning into programming in the early days of computing, and eventually leading major insurance organizations before launching a company focused on cyber risk protection for modern businesses.

🌲 The conversation begins with Doug’s love for fly fishing in Montana and hiking off the grid, then expands into deeper discussions about leadership, entrepreneurship, and the growing importance of cyber insurance in today’s digital world.

Doug shares how Managed Service Providers (MSPs) are the “last mile” of cybersecurity for businesses and why cyber insurance must work alongside technology to protect organizations.

⚡ Along the way, Joey and Doug explore leadership lessons, meditation retreats, curiosity as a driver of success, and how intentional thinking can transform both business and personal life.

🔑 Top 3 Highlights

🛡️ Why every company today is a digital business exposed to cyber risk

🧠 How curiosity and intentional thinking shape leadership success

💡 The myths about cyber insurance that many businesses misunderstand

This conversation blends technology, entrepreneurship, cybersecurity, leadership, and personal growth into a powerful discussion for business owners and innovators.

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SPEAKER_04

Doug Kreisberg. Great talking with Doug. Fascinating background. I don't know if you could tell by looking at him, but he was once a playwright. We talked about fishing in the beginning, some of his great hobbies to get outside, uh kind of morphed into playwriting, which also morphed into coding. He programmed in C language, not sure if you know what that is. We actually go into the origin of that a little bit. I'm not sure what I said is true about the origin in there, but moved him into an insurance broker to help them write some coding. Before you know it, he took over the company and now he's got offerings. Now he helps small businesses and manage service providers, MSPs, help get cyber insurance to them and their clients. Really great insight on insurance itself. The reputation isn't the best right now, especially in healthcare insurance. And we talk about that, we address that a bit, but really great insight on why it's necessary for businesses, for many service providers, and what AI is doing in that area as well. But really great discussion with Doug. I thank him and I thank you for watching. Listen. Hi, I'm Joey Pins. And here's my 45-second introduction. After starting my business in the 90s, I started developing poor habits of eating in my diet because of working way too much. Before you know it, I found myself 340 pounds. The doctor told me if I don't lose the weight, I'm not gonna see my daughter graduate. Took the next seven months, lost 130 pounds. People think there's some secret. Ask me, how'd you lose that weight? Like there's some secret. There is no secret. How'd I lose the weight? Just one word, discipline. I've had other successes in life, and I attribute them all to discipline. Now I'm not the king of discipline, but I believe that it can help all of us. Friends, colleagues convinced me to start a podcast. The podcast mission, how do we better ourselves and society? I talked to interesting people in health, fitness, sport, wellness, business, technology, science, art and culture. And I eventually asked them how discipline plays a role in their life. Podcast Vision, growth through learning from others. Yourself. And so where do you do your fly fishing? I mean, in Pennsylvania, you can't do it now.

SPEAKER_01

No, no. I do it uh in Montana. We have a place in Montana. Nice. Um, so uh I enjoy getting out there, getting on a stream, uh, or or going on uh uh we we do some uh uh drift drift fishing as well on the Missouri. Um it's you're on a boat and you're you're casting uh uh upstream and you're letting the you're kind of uh mending the line uh as you try to get the that that's where you get the big fish. Um there's some big trout out there. A lot of fun.

SPEAKER_04

It's really just fishing, it just it clears your mind, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah, yeah, it's a very zen experience. Yeah. Um you're really focused on just you know kind of letting the the fly settle in the water. You you really once, you know, other than uh uh you know getting the fly out there, it's uh you have no control. It's it's uh you're just waiting to to see if the uh fish decides to do the next step there. Um and uh but it's a lot of fun. We we enjoy it.

SPEAKER_04

In this fast-paced MSP landscape, how do you stay ahead? Introducing MSP Influencer.com, your ultimate hub for MSP news insights and community connection powered by Forza Dash. More than 75,000 MSP subscribed to our MSP Influencer Pulse weekly newsletter, staying informed and ahead of industry trends. Town in to emerging podcasts we had leading MSP voices, offering Powerful Insights and MSP leaders, celebrate celebrate XP industry leading force dash, MSP influencer, I lead leading leader, MSP leading. Trust MSP influencer.com to grow their business and expand their networks. MSP influencer.com. Which is MSP leaders connect, collaborate, and country all powered by the Fort Platform, helping MSP vendors work effectively with MSPs and helping MSPs grow. I I have friends that do it. They always invite me and I have yet to go. And some of them make their own flies, Doug.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. I don't really have I tried it. Um I just don't have the patience for the It's a lot easier just to go in the store, you know, pay pay, you know, and now it's a couple bucks for for a fly or something, but uh uh, you know, and uh and you know, and then you then you go with guides every once in a while and they've got their own, you know, special ones for whatever that time of year is, too. So that's good. And do different flies catch different fish? Um they can, but usually it's it's less the uh you're usually catching trout, you know, for the most part, at least where where we are fishing. And it has more to do with the time of day, the time of the year, uh you know, what may be hatching uh uh there. Um in some cases you're um you know you're you're looking for uh uh insects, you know, that may fall into the water, depending upon the so it really uh you're you're kind of judging what what may what what what will attract the fish and what's going on naturally um that that can attract them. And then you've got a few standbys that that always seem to work.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, is that right?

SPEAKER_01

Right, right. Why do they always work? Uh they they just have uh probably the the kind of the tendencies that look like uh you know different most of the flies. Uh or or they just you know, you you just have a couple of those that you just you know pull out when nothing else seems to work and hope that that they they come through for you.

SPEAKER_04

No, I've been on some fishing trips where they actually use technology they can kind of see where schools of fish are. Is there any technology used at all, fly fishing?

SPEAKER_01

Not not so much in the fly fishing. Uh you know, that that's more for your uh you know onshore or you know, offshore type fishing where you're looking for um stripers. I mean, you you know, and I guess I shouldn't say that. I've done uh fly fishing for uh in saltwater, and they'll they will use those controls just like they do would do for light tackle or any type of fishing. Uh but usually um again, if you're if you're fly fishing for for um saltwater, you you generally are looking for them to be pretty close to the top of the water. So you usually can kind of also see them. You've kind of fished the rips as they call it, uh which is where you know two tides may be coming in and at each other and the fish uh kind of go for the bait. Wow. And in Montana, do you have to catch and release? We um in some areas you don't, but we we do. I mean, you know, it's it's more uh we're we're not there, we don't need to, you know, bring the fish home to eat, uh anything like that. So it's uh it's catch and release for us.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_04

Sounds great though. Just to kind of get away. Is your phone with you? You just connect?

SPEAKER_01

Uh the phone doesn't work we usually because uh you're you're out where where there aren't any towers.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, so there's no there's no connection.

SPEAKER_01

Oh exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_04

I just picture just big mountains and open sky and just uh that's getting off the grid.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you get uh you get uh hot you know eagles flying above you, you'll see deer or moose uh occasionally. Uh you know, uh not too many bear, but but they're they'd be out there um uh there. So it's uh it's it's uh it's a great experience uh to do. Something I look forward to when I get out there.

SPEAKER_04

And I guess Doug, the hiking comes naturally with that because you just have to kind of traverse to these areas.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but you do uh you do uh you can you can certainly hike to to go fishing, and there's there's a uh you know, when you when you're going from different parts of the creek, you'll you'll certainly do a lot of that. Um I like to do, you know, uh often I'll I'll just do the hiking uh just outside of the fishing and grab a uh pack and you know, day pack and used to do um uh backpacking where you'd be overnight. I don't do much of that anymore, but uh uh just get a day pack and uh you know you uh keep the uh GPS component. Uh sometimes uh we have a separate uh item for the GPS if we need that, or we just use uh the old maps um and kind of just get out and get lost for a little bit. And when you're overnight, you're pitching at 10, but are you not scared of bear or any No, no, um uh it hasn't been in I mean you know you you have to be careful in terms of how you hang your you know your food, trash, you know, and things like that. Um but uh you know knock on whatever we haven't had any issues uh with bear um you know come coming through. Um I you know perhaps uh I think when I was uh younger we did have a bear come by our our tent and you know go you know they're they're just like a big raccoon, you know, looking for uh uh looking for um the uh quick food garbage. But uh yeah, haven't had any issues there.

SPEAKER_04

Um love all this outdoor stuff, Doug, but then uh you love the theater as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. I I love um the uh that that's kind of what I uh studied. I studied uh English and theater and did you really and uh uh did some theater uh when I when I uh mostly uh writing and production and schlepping stuff from uh uh from our our gig to gig. But um uh so so I do enjoy it. I didn't don't do as much of it uh obviously now. Um uh and uh except for you know going to see plays so and and reading plays. So uh there.

SPEAKER_04

And you've written plays or parts of plays?

SPEAKER_01

Uh yeah, I did I did some writing uh with uh when I was uh when I was in theater, we would write I would write one-person shows, so we would do these for school. So if we would do a show on Egar Allan Poe, you know, and then then sell it to a school. So we had an actor who could do Egg Allan Poe. I would do the writing. Um I would I would uh book the gigs and uh uh and and get everything set up, and then we had an actor kind of do do the character. Uh so I did that for um uh I think it was Eggley Allan Poe, Shakespeare did one, um Lincoln did one. We already had a Mark Twain that was already there, so uh uh we had that. And and it was good, you know, you you could get uh get a couple thousand bucks to go in and you know, um and then move on to the next town that that you know did did it. So wow. Um that that was uh my gig. And um I also at the time I started doing uh computer work um uh just to kind of pay the the bills. I I knew how to write code and I started working for an insurance company um and ultimately uh kind of got more into that as and the theater kind of uh drifted off. So uh and that's how I got on the insurance game, really through technology. So and what code? What what what language do you probably uh well back then it was uh we were we were on a Unix based system, so it was uh C uh language is what I wrote in. So uh we didn't have to worry about security back then. No, no, everything was on a floppy disk or they had hard drives, but uh I mean isn't it amazing C is still used today? It is, it is, although, although I think uh, you know, um I think it's a lot easier because they have object language, yeah. It's it's just different tool. Unfortunately, it's easier, right? I'm not uh saying it shouldn't be. And of course, now with uh with AI, it's a whole different ball game.

SPEAKER_04

Very different. And do you know the origin why they call it C? I do not. I do not. Um that's a good question. I believe, and I could be mistaken, was ATT Labs at the time, and they made the first iteration and they called it A. And the second iteration was called B, and then the third was called C. That makes sense to me. I could be wrong on that, but uh probably wasn't much more than that. Yeah, not too, not too romantic, I'm afraid, but uh, but there's so many. We our first language we taught ourselves was basic, and then we moved to C and to and to things like that. And so you were you were writing, I mean, those are very different disciplines, Doug. You were writing plays and you were writing code. I mean, that's left and right brain.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. And that, you know, um it's uh although, you know, in in some you you I kind of feel you need both regardless for the creative or or for the analytical, uh uh here, but uh, but I found that the you know in in terms of writing code, there's certainly uh, you know, there's an analytical framework to uh, but to visualize what you need to write, you know, what you need to create, basically, uh requires the skills, you know, um from the the other side of the brain. And and I found that uh I was able to kind of really kind of you know, first of all, communicate to the business uh individuals and and leaders what and and understand what their needs were and then contextualize it into the framework of of you know whatever I was coding. So uh we we developed a our um uh database marketing uh platform and uh just wrote a heck of a lot of insurance and I uh suddenly found myself getting more involved on the business side uh and the coding aspect started drifting away. And then I took over the company at a certain point.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

Um and we sold it, and then I ran a bigger company, and and uh that that's kind of how I I got really away from the from the technology until uh uh really until we we as a company were hacked and we had to deal with it. And I saw the uh the issues that would come up and I knew what didn't, you know, obviously uh I knew about cyber insurance and was you know paid a lot more attention to that and started creating a program for cyber insurance and um decided that this was gonna be some so specialized. Um uh I wanted to kind of create a separate company just focused on it. So took chips off the table and started uh seed potting. Wow.

SPEAKER_04

Insurance doesn't have the best reputation, especially in healthcare, right? You're not paying bills and things like that. And how do you combat that? I know that's not where you are, but uh it's still, you know, we saw the assassination of a CEO last year, and it's it's just it's not in a very good so what what do you say to that?

SPEAKER_01

You know, um well it it you you can't excuse any any actor that certainly um and um I think the uh uh I think the best way to to you know address any issue uh you know and this you know insurance and claims payment is one and that that is is really to be transparent, really to show the uh insured um how how you know how pricing is done and what goes into it and what's important and what you can do to modify or change or increase it. And and the at the same time to be transparent about uh, you know, to be clear in your policy language so that you're not uh trying to over-legal uh a document that's not read by lawyers and unless uh something bad happens. You know, put try to frame it in the context that people can understand, and then um be transparent into you know what is covered and and what isn't covered uh there. And then when when things are covered, cover them, you know, and and and deal with it and not try to play games. And sometimes um, you know, that uh uh you know, sometimes there there are uh uh coverages that uh that you know you can go one way or the other from a legal reading of it. And you know, usually it's it's best to err on the side of the client. Um and um uh in those situations there. And that that's how, you know, and and really the whole approach to seed pod is all about transparency. We we we approach it from being trans, you know, where where we differentiate is we get a very good look at the environment of of these customers. And that reduces that transparency reduces our uncertainty so that we can be better at pricing, as well as to make sure that they won't, or to ensure basically that that client won't have an issue about their claims being paid due to any deficiencies. Because we've looked at it, we've validated it, uh, and and there won't be issues there. Um and that that goes a long way towards uh uh especially the small and medium-sized businesses who really don't understand cyber. Uh and you know, they they have a distrust of the insurance, as you mentioned, uh uh regardless.

SPEAKER_04

So But look, you went the skills that you had, you were writing theater, you were writing code, and eventually you became the owner. Now, this happens to a lot of, I could tell you it happened to my technology firm, right? I was supporting writing code and supporting computers, and then I decided to open up my shop. So then we have to have a very you're getting set, you said separating from the technology. Now you've got to have business skills and leadership skills. Tell me about that journey.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Well, when I when I took over, you know, the uh uh the insurance uh agency that I was uh working for, uh the uh you know you you learn and you learn very quickly what uh what what uh what works and what doesn't work, and you also learn very quickly who you are. Um uh because it really, you know, being put into a leadership role, if if you're self-aware, and and not everyone is is that, but uh uh really can can it instruct you on on who you are because you're the people are reflecting that uh that your attributes back to you. And and usually if you see something that isn't working, the first place you have to look is well what am I not doing? What what what why is this occurring? And uh um and so they they're you know in and what we what what can I do to change my approach? Um the other is um really to know and and this is this takes took you know it's taken time when you're doing coding and you're you know even writing a play, you're you're very much in your own mind, and and uh which is fine, but uh when you're leading a company, there you've got to step outside, you've got to let other people do the work, you've got to um acknowledge that you aren't gonna be able to architect this all by yourself and be successful. Uh and that sometimes takes time uh to to in terms of the delegation. Uh that doesn't mean just throw caution to the wind and let everybody do whatever they want, but but uh it does focus you on um you know being okay with uh other people failing, um uh just as you need to be okay with with whatever failures come for yourself uh or from yourself up there. So um, you know, learned a lot of lessons, uh still learning uh as far as that goes. Um and um um and uh I would say you probably have learned more from my mistakes than I've learned from whatever success, that's for sure. Um but it's it's a lot of fun and an important part of what I do.

SPEAKER_04

What's the difference between a leader and a manager, Doug?

SPEAKER_01

Um I think I think the difference is um the uh where where the viewpoint is. Um the the leader is is really um someone who uh sets the sets the direction, sets uh you know, has has a vision, I think, uh and and uh is able to communicate it in a way In which everyone can share in that vision there. And, you know, just going back to the play as an example, you know, there's and I didn't that this is a story, but uh, you know, uh uh the uh they were doing Hamlet, and you know, there's a lot of characters, or there's a lot of important characters in the play, and there's a couple that are just there, kind of stand, you know, who are standing there, and one was a guard. And and uh uh someone asked him, you know, what is the play about? And he said, the play is about uh this guard who's trying to protect this uh their their country from forces both within and without, and they're trying to understand that. And and you know, that the director of the play was able to communicate, you know, the importance of Hamlet to that person in a way that they could understand and buy into. And that's what you try to do as you're as you're leading an organization, is communicate the vision, communicate the objectives in a way that everyone can see themselves as the the leading character in that uh in that or in that goal, and and to make sure that they have the tools and resources necessary to get it done. I think a manager is someone who is uh kind of making sure that things are accomplished. Uh, and unfortunately, in some cases, I would say they're doing more rear view mirror type driving, as you know, just looking at what was done and you know what's the gap between that and what should have been done. Uh the leaders more ahead, and you know, let's look at the the windshield guys, and you know, and you all see the same things I'm seeing.

SPEAKER_04

Had a couple of managers that thought they were leaders. That's a tough discussion, Doug. Have you ever had to have that with because like ego kind of gets in the way, and both are very important. We need both, right? You know, uh, but yeah, that can be a very tough discussion.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. And the and the the challenge is um usually comes down to or the issues usually come down to communication. You know, the the where the the manager, uh communication and delegation, where the manager is just unable to kind of communicate effectively why these things are important. And I would agree, you know, managers' roles are very important in terms of getting things accomplished. Um and then also sometimes they feel they're the best at the role. Sometimes they were promoted to a manager because they were best at their role. They just weren't good at managing. And and I've had some tough conversations with people over the years uh say, you know, I the mistake was mine. I I put you in a took you out of a role, you were doing great, and put you in a role where you know we we weren't able to help support you. Um and uh we have to think about something different. So it is challenging.

SPEAKER_04

Very challenging. And you know, uh, I started my my tech firm MSP back in the 90s, and I remember, I'm gonna I'm gonna agree with most of the failures of my employees were my fault, Doug. You know, I remember hiring a salesperson for the first time, I don't know when this was, in the mid to late 90s, and I handed him the yellow pages and said, go get me work. You know, I mean, I mean, it was terrible. I didn't do any marketing or anything. I just, you know, you're a good salesperson. Get it, get it done. You know, so uh we learned. So you say so you went to become the leader, the boss of this, the the the owner of this, and then you say you sold it. What were some of the lessons in selling there that uh anybody can learn from?

SPEAKER_01

I think the uh the biggest lessons is when you sell some, especially uh obviously, uh well, two two big lessons. One is um if you're continuing on with the company, you have to recognize that you are no longer in charge. Uh and that can be very difficult um for some. Uh uh and and you you just have to uh and some would say you can't believe anything that uh the buyers are telling you before the sale. Um and you know, there's there's some buyers like that, but part of it, you're just not willing to live uh you're uh when you're the owner. You're used to making the decisions and you're the uh the last stop uh before things get done in some regards. You j it's not yours anymore. You're you're you know, you're helping along if you're still in that role, and you just have to understand and and be prepared for that change. Uh uh and the other is um, and I and I've seen this if for those um, and if this this was something that I wish I would have done, but uh uh when you if you are leaving uh or when you are leaving, don't have an immediate goal right after. Uh just kind of be and be for a period of time. Don't make any life-changing decisions. Uh, you know, don't run off the Montana or don't start that next new company, uh, or or you know, just kind of be um and and and then you know set set a timeline if you want uh in which you are gonna make decisions. And and I the uh I've known some people who have uh done that and uh it's it's been fantastic. They were able to reset their relationships with with their families or reset their relationships with themselves, really give them a chance to figure out what do I really want, right? What what what's what's gonna drive me uh uh here? And often people want to rush off into the new thing and they haven't really thought, you know, haven't given them themselves the the break. You know, when I when I left um before I started started Seed Pod, I didn't take uh take a lot of time off. Um I took but I did take 10 days on a meditation retreat, nice, which I'd never done before. Uh and I figured I'll just jump in the deep end and figure it out. Um, but it was silent, uh, a silent retreat. And uh it was just uh uh it was um uh really uh an incredible experience in and of itself, but it also helped me kind of separate, you know, from what was my past and kind of put me in a place in which I can start approaching things differently going forward, uh and being in a, you know, if nothing else, in a better place to to know that I can choose. I can take a breath before making a decision and decide is this the right thing? And uh, you know, I would say before uh doing that, I I wasn't uh doing uh wasn't uh making giving myself the opportunity to make those choices perhaps as much as I should have.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, because the problem with success, you know, you sell your company, the problem with success that makes you feel that you can't fail. So it's like, okay, I'm just gonna roll right up into the next one and do really well and and see what happens. But your advice is sound. Just take some time to really think about what you're going to do. And, you know, as small business owners working so many hours, just reset a little bit. Had you take done a silent retreat before?

SPEAKER_01

I know no, that was the first time. I I just thought, you know, I I you know, I kind of knew what meditation was. I didn't really um understand it or or think too much about it. Um, but I felt that um, you know, I needed to do, I must have read an article or something. I don't know where it kind of hit me but or how it how it got to me. But uh I just felt, you know, this is something that that makes sense. I I then, you know, did like I normally do is who's the best, you know, at doing this. Found out who they were, uh, found out when they had their retreat, and it happened to be a 10-day retreat. So I said I'm going there and doing it. Um and uh it's it's uh it's helped me out in in many ways. Um I would say. Uh I'm not saying everybody has to do it, it just you know it's helped me out for sure. And how long ago was this? This was um now it's uh about seven years ago.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

And you still meditate now? I do. I do. I don't not for 10 days. I haven't done a 10-day retreat. I I was going to do one over COVID and then they made it into uh virtual. And you can't do it, that's a tough thing to do.

SPEAKER_04

What if discipline wasn't about punishment, but about unlocking your best self? I spent two and a half years writing discipline for greatness, because discipline changed my life. And I know it can change yours too. This isn't a theory. Inside, you'll find real practical steps you can use immediately to focus better, build stronger habits, reduce stress, accomplish your goals, and bring more balance to your life. Whether you're trying to get healthier, improve your career, or simply feel more control. This book gives you the framework. Start today. Grab your copy of Discipline for Greatness at JoeyPins.com slash book. Thank you. The most difficult thing of a 10-day silent meditation retreat is um I I would say um for me, yeah, it was the the most difficult was was really being just you while you're with other people, you're really with yourself.

SPEAKER_01

And I think there were some things that that that that was tough to to be where I didn't have the distractions. I didn't for me, it was I couldn't, you know, I was used to multitasking.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And I didn't, I I, you know, you hand in your phone, you know, you have no way to connection with the outside world, you don't know what's going on. Um, it happened to be when the when the Eagles were playing in their first Super Bowl. I'm a Philadelphia Eagles fan. Yes, and I had no idea that they won because they were playing when I was on retreat. Um not that that was the worst, but it think what the heck am I doing?

SPEAKER_04

Nice surprise to wake up to or come out of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it helped immensely. You don't regret it at all.

SPEAKER_01

No, no, it it help helped me um uh you know, I could certainly talk a lot a lot about that. It helped in terms of um, as I mentioned, giving the uh seeing what power there is in the breath in terms of making choices. Also, the the other is to let your feelings, whatever comes up, know that that can just kind of go away. Um, and it will go away at some point. Uh and and I don't know how there are things that will get me upset, you know, like anyone in in work or you know, just in in life. And all I know, and but now I have the skill to know I just have to kind of take a breath and see it for what it is. And it's really, you know, how many things do do we deal with that are really, you know, life-threatening? Um, very, very small, very, very, there's very few things. We don't have tigers that we're running away from uh these days. Um and uh most everything is um not as bad as we think it is, and as well as uh the good things, they'll they'll go away too, and just acknowledging, you know, that um enjoy what you have when you have it, because uh um that you know that's all you have.

SPEAKER_04

Do you like the term zen?

SPEAKER_01

I do, I do. I mean I do because it's what people understand, right? Um, and and so and that's you know, but before um, you know, when I when I was um you know working and and uh uh running running the businesses, there I was, yeah, it's amazing how often I was really out of my mind and not maybe I was in in the usual way that people think of it, but but just not being intentional and just not being conscious, just kind of reacting. And it's amazing when you when you actually are intentional, how how much more successful you can be, um as well as um uh how how resilient you can be too. Um and where you know things just don't affect you, and you can kind of see a lot more clearly, even if everything's going to hell around you. So um yeah.

SPEAKER_04

What do you mean by being intentional?

SPEAKER_01

Um it it really is about uh I keep coming back to you're making a choice. I'm I'm I'm intentionally gonna do this, I'm intentionally going to feel this, or I'm intentionally not going to feel this. It's just being aware of the situation around you and deciding how you're gonna be in that situation. What what's going to, you know, are are you gonna be that feeling, you know? Uh are you, you know, if it's anger, are you gonna, you know, am I gonna become that angry person? I can feel anger, I can feel this this happening, or I can be afraid, or um, I can be ecstatic. Um and uh but I have a choice on on how attached I'm going to be uh to that. And that's what I mean by by being intentional, as opposed to just kind of attaching to every feeling that's coming through, or or um just kind of losing yourself and you know to to what's going on, um uh and just being part of the flow there.

SPEAKER_04

That's inspirational. Yeah, to be intentional. So you sell the company, you go on a retreat, you come back, and then you start a new company.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Yep, yep. And uh I actually didn't know what that was going to look like. Um, I did know I wanted to um put uh the cyber insurance program together. And as I looked at the, you know, I looked at the marketplace, I looked at how all the competitors were doing it, I thought that there was something missing. Um and you know, I had some friends who were managed service providers, and you know, I I knew they were managed service providers. I couldn't say I knew a heck of a lot of what that what that really meant. Um, but they were complaining about the cyber insurance. And then I asked them, I said, you know, I started asking my buddies, I said, look, if if I was able to come up with a program that kind of matched what you were selling to your clients, would that be a good thing, do you think? Or would that be not a good thing? Or it wouldn't matter? And and you know, they they were more intrigued and excited about it than not. And I thought, well, this could be a way to for me to differentiate. So I'm not just like any other cyber insurance uh company out there. Um, I know what the, you know, I have a different way of getting to the customer, and that would be through managed service providers. And I would have a more insight into the type of uh controls that were in the environment, uh, which would enable me to, you know, really differentiate and be more competitive because I would have more information than my competitors out there. And um so I kind of uh latched on to that. And uh that's you know, I started developing the program um, you know, based on that on that concept, um, and got a carrier that bought into what you know how I was uh approaching the market. And um, you know, we started uh going. I got was able to uh connect early on with uh um uh augment um and uh talk to Gavin and Derek and they were excited about the concept. Um and they were gracious enough to allow me to go to one of the IT nations. Um and that was my first exposure to the conference circuit um uh there and uh you know really got to understand um the community the MSP community as much as you know certainly understanding kind of the the all the all the technical aspects um and how how the channel you know the the impact that that the of that channel on onto the small businesses uh and how important it was for those MSPs to kind of you know be you know um have access to resources like many of the you know the the you know the channel the conferences and you know uh kind of the you know platforms like yours that that kind of speak to them uh uniquely. Um it's very important.

SPEAKER_04

Why should businesses, all businesses, especially small businesses, have cyber insurance?

SPEAKER_01

Um the uh well, first of all, all businesses right now, whether they think of they are or not, are digital businesses. Um we we all you know have access and are using technology. Um and you know, you have, you know, and businesses uh for the most part are still uh they still have offices, they still have other uh you know tools and and uh that that they're using. Uh and all those present risks and they come up with ways to ensure them. Um the digital aspects of their business are no different. There are opportunities, obviously, that's why you're using the technology is to is to uh uh take advantage of of the opportunities it provides, but they come alongs with they come along with risk. And like anything, you want to be effect effective in your ability to manage the risk. And you know, you need that, you need an insurance is is certainly a good vehicle uh to help you do that. It's not the only thing you can do, certainly, in terms of managing cyber risk, but it is it is a uh it is um gives you the ability to kind of take the other risks you need to uh so that if you know if all of a sudden you know the bad something bad happens, uh you've got the balance sheet resilience to get yourself through it.

SPEAKER_04

Hmm. You mentioned before that you the process of you kind of creating these insurance policies and then having a carrier support it. Tell me about what does that mean in the back office of insurance? I don't understand.

SPEAKER_01

Sure. Um, yeah, the uh, you know, you have your most people when they think of insurance, they think of the insurance agent and then the insurance company. And the agent or the broker is someone who's selling you. Uh, and you know, they'll sell you, you know, from three or four different types of carriers, you make the selection, and then the carrier is kind of paying the claims. Um, we our our what what we are is is we're what's called a managing general agent. Um, so we still have, we're still talking to you in in many cases as uh as a broker, but we've created the underwriting criteria, we've created the pricing, we've created the strategy, and in some cases we've created the whole mechanisms by which that can occur. Uh what and then what we do is we go to carriers and we talk to three or four carriers to see who's interested, who kind of likes our approach, who views this as different enough uh or or special enough, or it gets them into a market that they aren't in today uh that's willing to provide the capacity, the claims paying ability, the promise, you know, to fulfill the promise, if you will, of what that coverage is. So that that's what I mean in that respect. So we're we're a as I tell um people, we're we're kind of you know, we're between a broker and a carrying. We're a broker in the sense that we have conversations with clients about coverage. We're a carrier in the sense that we do the underwriting. We're the ones actually signing off on who gets accepted, who doesn't. We've created the forms, the policy, language. We just don't uh at the end of the day, when when the claim, if a claim comes into play, uh we've got uh a carrier who's backing that up and has the surplus um uh to be able to handle that.

SPEAKER_04

And what are the some of the myths about cyber insurance, Doug?

SPEAKER_01

Um I think the well, the the myth, uh what one myth is is that it won't cover anything. And and so, you know, you walk into to a room and you've got a lot of uh MSPs, and you know, somebody will always say, well, you know, the insurance doesn't cover anything. Um and you'll talk to businesses who will say that as well. Um and and I think if you there are certain sit certainly situations in which that has occurred, but I think more often than not, uh the the you know the coverage is there uh for for the business. Um and and so that that that's one thing. Um the other is uh the other myth is almost on the opposite side is um all I have to do is buy insurance. So that means I don't have to do anything about security. I'm not gonna pay for that endpoint protection. I'll just buy the insurance. They'll, you know, if something screws up, I I'm covered. Um and that that is is a myth that um uh persists out there, but it but is not correct. You you need to have for any number of reasons, you need to have the right security controls in place uh so that that carrier you will actually come out and pay the claim in some in many situations. Uh the other thing is um you still there's gonna be residual stuff that that the you know insurance isn't gonna help you, like for your reputation. Um uh and you know, if if you're uh uh if you're subjecting your clients to to data breaches, uh as an example. Um the other is uh uh you know you're not going to have while the insurance will cover certain things, they may not cover everything if you're suffering a ransomware attack and you're down for an extended period of time. You may run out of uh coverage runway, so to speak, uh before you get back up and running. Wow there. And uh so those are the two main myths I think that uh that that people have on opposite sides of the aisle there.

SPEAKER_04

So when managed service providers or even small businesses are looking for you know cyber insurance, what questions should they be asking?

SPEAKER_01

Um they they should be asking uh well uh it I'll talk in it, it it does change in terms of how the threat landscape evolves, but I will say a couple things that they should be uh paying attention to. One is um, you know, finding out what it covers, and that that's a general statement, but basically making sure it covers ransomware, it covers data breach, and it covers uh uh business email compromise. Uh those are kind of the three. You know, does it cover these things? And then and then the the second question is how much does it cover? Because there are things called sublim. So I may buy a million dollars of coverage, but my ransomware is sublimited to uh $50,000, or my social engineering is sublimited to $250,000. So just understanding uh uh what that is. The other um uh and then this is an area that we are two additional areas that that we've seen more recently uh as being coverage gaps are what you know there many coverages have what's called business interruption. In other words, they'll pay if you're down, they're gonna pay you for any lost profits or extra expense that you have to incur while you're down. And that's good because if you're shut down and you can't make a you can't pay bills, you you can't uh you you can't uh uh bill your clients, um, you're losing profits, it gives you that ability to kind of keep you operationally afloat uh uh here. Um but as as we know, it's not just me getting affected. We're all kind of, since we're all digital, we're all interconnected, supply chain is a big issue. So if a if a system that I rely on is down, if I'm working on, I'll just pick Salesforce just because it came to mind. Uh if I'm working in Salesforce and Salesforce is down for an extended period of time, that's gonna hurt my business too. Uh and but that's not that that's that's a separate uh type of coverage. It's called contingent business interruption or dependent business interruption. So you really want to make sure that you have adequate business interruption for from uh for supply chain, so that contingent business interruption. Uh and then the other really is um, and this would this is applying more uniquely now to healthcare, it will extend to others, is really around um uh privacy regulations. Um the uh uh as an example uh in healthcare, there's a lot of these more websites that have marketing trackers on them to help identify who's coming to the website. Well, that's now defined as protected health information. And and so uh, you know, health uh many carriers are now excluding that coverage from their forms. Uh and if you're in you know a healthcare organization, you need to make sure that you have that uh in in place. Um and then the those are the you know, the last thing because because obviously AI is becoming more and more uh of a topic and becoming endemic in in terms of uh you know what organizations are doing there. Um most of the coverage, the cyber insurance will cover exposures from AI, because at the same, while AI may be driving a lot more activity, it still is a um uh it it's still they're just getting better at at you know getting your credentials, you know, getting you to click on the fish. Uh there's still kind of the it's it's still your your your father's uh security event, uh so to speak, uh uh going on uh there. That being said, as you start developing, you know, everybody's doing their vibe coding now and creating their own applications. Uh and if you're an MSP and you're starting to do that, you need to make sure that you're covered, you're covered for that. If I create my own app and start using it, something bad happens. Um you know, right now a lot of MSP uh coverages don't really uh contemplate that uh there. Um I you know, I I think you'll see some changes as as that uh occurs, but uh but but there are some issues there. Um but I you know I think the the um but it but but if you kind of focus on you know what what what am I covered for and does it adequately represent you know the risk that I have, um you should be in good shape.

SPEAKER_04

Doug, what do you like and dislike about insurance?

SPEAKER_01

Um I think I think what um what I like about insurance uh is really it enables businesses to take risk. Um and that they if they didn't have that backstop, if you will, they may not take. You know, when you think of, you know, the uh you know, insurance kind of grew out of the the Lloyd's uh marketplace, where a group of people uh who are you know owned merchants were sitting sitting in a coffee shop called Lloyd's, uh and they they had to figure out how they could, you know, put their ships out to sea and protect to you know protect it from you know storms and and uh uh you know if their cargo wouldn't come back. And they kind of pulled their resources to kind of manage it. Well, they wouldn't have been able to take, they wouldn't have taken those risks if they didn't have a backstop there. And that enabled, you know, whole new countries to be founded, you know, obviously. And and that concept where you know, you don't have to be uh uh own own uh merchant fleets to to to know that you know with whatever business you're doing, you've got to take risks. That's the only way you grow, that's the only way that you differentiate, it's the only way you really provide value. But being able to know that you know, events that uh are larger than your ability to kind of manage it can be taken care of uh and transferred, that that's where insurance comes in. So that's what I really like about insurance. What I don't like about insurance is it's often obtuse, uh opaque, um, and that creates the distrust that we talked about uh early on uh there um and the misunderstandings. Um I also think that um um you know the distribution uh needs to evolve more than it has. You know, we still have this kind of insurance agent uh distribution system that has persisted and you know it and there's a good places for them. But uh as the speed of risk and decisions change, you the insurance almost has to become part of the overall solution. That's what we're really trying to do uh at SeedPod is where we we want to embed the insurance into the cybersecurity solutions that MSPs are offering their clients. So what they buy at the end of the day is the security up front through the solutions and as well as the balance sheet at the back end, uh, and so they know that they're taken care of. And I think you'll see that more and more. You are beginning to see that more and more across all types of uh insurance. Uh, and I think that will just continue uh as we move forward.

SPEAKER_04

Doug, is there something that you believed in firmly 10 years ago that you no longer believe now?

SPEAKER_01

Um I think the uh I think what I believed in in it's more well a couple things. I think there's um I believe that um people have the ability to by by being open and being vulnerable, if you will, you have a lot more ability to be resilient than trying to bottle everything up. Um whether it's yourself or whether it's your business uh uh there. I find there's more opportunities for for growth. I also think um, you know, and in and I think insurance is is part of this. You can get a scarcity mindset. In other words, you you're you're more worried about losing things. Um I found, and I don't feel that way as much anymore. I feel more there's opportunities. Yes, there's gonna be challenges, you have to address them, but uh sometimes they're best addressed by you know going after the opportunities or realizing that things aren't going to just kind of uh you know be that go away totally. There's opportunities down and expand beyond it uh uh there. Um and then the other is um and and this is probably more more of a of a recent awareness with with the technology um here, is that um the the freedom to the there's just so much freedom to kind of make decisions and it comes with a responsibility and accountability today, um, and I think uh than I would have thought, you know, 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_04

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01

Um there, if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_04

Is there a question, Doug, you wish more people asked you?

SPEAKER_01

Um I think I think with regards to uh when you know when I'm talking to the MSPs with regards to the business side, um, it's really around help me understand how this can really help my business. Uh not and don't just tell me, but but really kind of work with me on that. We've had some great success working with partners who have been um sometimes they've asked, sometimes we've asked, uh to do that. But but just you know um to to you know kind of be curio be curious about that and ask those questions uh there. Um we we don't this isn't just another tool in the toolbox uh for them to sell. As a matter of fact, we don't want them to sell it. Uh it it's really we see as a way to to reshaping the conversation uh that they can have with their their business owners.

SPEAKER_04

So, Doug, I think you know my story. Uh I started my tech firm, my MSP back in the 90s was working way too hard, you know, 14, 16 hour days, you're no stranger to this, and putting exercise in the backseat and developing poor habits. And I saw in the notes you you put, you know, you used to run marathons 20 pounds ago, you know. So uh so I get in front of the doctor and she tells me I'm at 340 pounds. So I had gained all this terrible amount of weight, knew I was getting bigger, didn't know I was that big. So she says to me, if you don't lose this weight, you're not gonna see your daughter graduate. My daughter was just born, scared the life out of me, spent the next six, seven months, lost about 120 pounds, kept it off. Uh so when people ask me, I always say, you know, what's your secret? I just say discipline, right? Focus, routine, you know, motivation. How does discipline play a role in your life, Doug?

SPEAKER_01

Um the uh it's a great question. And uh uh, you know, and and I've gone, you know, with it's with with the you know, jumping back into the or jumping into the startup uh life, you start going back to those 12-hour days uh uh there. And um uh the the the way and the way for me is uh from the physical side is I need to do it in the morning. Um it just it just is part of my routine. Um I have, you know, and and I've got uh and I I'm you know I like to challenge myself, so then there's a little bit of competitiveness to me. So uh, you know, I I keep track, I think that's another thing, is just keeping track of what you've accomplished and and writing down. I just wrote down what I want my workouts to be next week. So uh uh there and and that for me is is very um uh has been very helpful. I think the the meditation routine has been certainly a strong catalyst for me to to really recalibrate and refocus where where I want to be um uh there. Uh yeah, and then that and that also trans transfers into the diet and you know, making choices about what to eat um uh there. Um and and I and I would, you know, uh you you it sounds like your your daughter was a was a motivating factor. Um you know for for me, you know, the relationship, you know, with my wife and with my kids, you know, the those those relationships are really important and they help to nurture, you know, and and reinforce what I what I want to do uh there. Um I don't always make the right decisions. Um sometimes I you know I'll I'll jump in to start working right away. Um uh but but more often than not, you know, I'm trying to to keep uh keep focused on it.

SPEAKER_04

What motivates you?

SPEAKER_01

Um I think uh the um uh well well a couple things motivate me. I I think the I'm I'm a very I want to do something that uh from the work standpoint what motivates me is is doing something that that hasn't existed before and and being very curious about things. And I go into well, I go into everything with curiosity. Um and and uh that that's really what motivates me, as well as the freedom to what motivates me is the ability to um if when I if I don't see something working, the ability to be able to just move move on. Uh and that's a very motivating thing. When you feel you're locked into something and you don't have a choice, uh can is is something that that just kind of gets gets to me. So um uh uh but but that that's a motivating. And I think the other from from the and and I would say as I'm thinking about personally, what motivates me is just new experiences. Um uh whether it's travel or whether it's um uh trying at different things, it's um you know, I just I just like to to explore and uh uh be amazed to, you know, and and look at the world, you know, with wonder.

SPEAKER_04

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SPEAKER_01

I'm always looking for.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I I share in that. You know, my daughters were in their 20s now, but they know like Christmas or around the holidays or a birthday, whatever, I never want gifts. I want experiences. You know, I've got enough possessions, I've got too many, by the way. I could purge many of them and live quite as happy, you know. But yeah, I just want experiences. I mean, and being curious, just um one of the main reasons why I like talking to interesting people like you, you know, just to continue. So you your motivation is curious, new experience. I kind of hear impact as well. So given that those motivators, Doug, how do you measure success?

SPEAKER_01

Um the uh I think I think along the lines of um, you know, when when I line up impact, um, I line up the curiosity, um, they they ultimately translate into a goal. Um so what do I want to achieve? I want to land that big account. I want to um, you know, I want to get the carrier to buy into this new approach that we're going to do in terms of the uh uh underwriting. I'm going to create that partnership uh with with a major channel player um here that I you know didn't even know existed 18 months ago. Those are type and I try to keep them pretty large, uh not not as and and you know what what gets what is it's not necessarily that I'll always achieve that end goal, but it stretches me enough that I'm achieving the next thing along the way to that path. So, what's it gonna take for me to meet to understand that new partner? Who do I need to know? You know, how do I get to that? Did I talk to that one person there? And did they get me into talking about another person? What did I learn? And maybe I've learned that that's not the right, you know, the partner I thought isn't going to get me there. So do I need to pivot? And so I know that you know, if I'm continuing to move along the path towards towards that, um, whatever that is, and we'll just say impact uh item, um, if I feel I've made some ground, you know, I know I'm I'm on the I'm doing the right thing. Um if I feel I'm getting bogged down or distracted, um, or there's another shiny object that's kind of flashing in front of me that's uh distracting, um, I know that I'm I've got to re-re-calibrate.

SPEAKER_04

Iterate and improve. Right.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, we all need to do that, don't we? You you the name of your company, Doug, Seed Pod Cyber. What's the genesis of the name?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, the um uh really it it came down. I I knew that um, you know, our focus was going to be small and medium-sized businesses. And small and medium-sized businesses are are really, you know, have been historically, and I think will continue to be kind of the the font of of innovation uh here. And what I wanted to do, they're the kind of the seeds, you know, these are the small organizations, they're the seeds that are ultimately going to grow. And uh and I wanted to to be kind of that uh you know the protection for that organization so that it could take those risks to grow, as we talked about. So SeedPod kind of grew out of that uh as a way um uh to kind of uh you know give, you know, provide a little metaphor for that.

SPEAKER_04

Great, great talking to you, Doug. I mean, really great insight. Thank you so much. So, people watching and listening, what's the best way to get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_01

Uh, best way to get in touch is uh, you know, email uh you is uh Doug.kreitzberg at seedpodcyber.com and and or you know, just message me on LinkedIn. Um you know, that may even be easier uh there.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, you're very active there on LinkedIn. We'll make sure to put that under the show notes. Doug, thanks so much for your time. Looking forward to see you at the next event. We'll have a cup of tea.

SPEAKER_00

All right, all right. Sounds good, Joe. Thanks so much. Take care, bye-bye.

SPEAKER_04

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