Joey Pinz Discipline Conversations

#858 Brad Dude: 🌍 From Peace Corps to NASA: Lessons That Shape Leaders

• Joey Pinz • Episode 858

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:07:14

Send us Fan Mail

What can a lifetime of global experience teach us about leadership, writing, and personal growth? 🌍

In this episode, Joey Pinz sits down with a former Peace Corps volunteer turned NASA leadership trainer who has worked across 30+ countries—and is now a published author and screenwriter. From living in a hut with no electricity to training some of the brightest minds at NASA, this conversation explores how real-world experiences shape perspective, creativity, and success.

You’ll hear how global travel influenced his leadership philosophy, why most new managers struggle, and how understanding temperament can transform how you work with others. The conversation also dives into the creative process behind writing fiction, and how research, imagination, and life experience intersect.

🔥 Top 3 Highlights:

  • 🌎 The biggest leadership lessons learned from 30+ countries 
  • 🧠 The “temperament model” and how it impacts team success 
  • ✍️ How real-life experiences fuel storytelling and creativity 

If you're interested in leadership, personal development, writing, or global perspectives—this episode delivers practical insights with real depth.

---

 

Join us for enlightening discussions that spark growth and exploration. 

Hosted by Joey Pinz, this Discipline Conversations Podcast offers insights and inspiration.

 

🎧 Listen on Your Favorite Platforms: 

 

🌐 Explore More: 

 

🎵 Music by Tom Izzo: @wahlsinger  https://tomizzomusic.com  

 

Would you like to Sponsor Joey Pinz?  Get the prospectus here: www.joeypinz.com/sponsor

 

💡 Support the Podcast: 

• Subscribe: https://joeypinzconversations.com/subscribe/

• Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/joeypinz 

• One-Time Payment: https://tinyurl.com/c6dx4hck

 

Subscribe, follow, and rate with 5 stars if you enjoy these conversations. 

Connect with us across various platforms and don't forget to join our newsletter for updates!

 

#Podcast  #Conversations #PersonalGrowth  #ThoughtLeadership  #Mindfulness

#SelfImprovement #LearningJourney  #Motivation #ThoughtProvoking

#KnowledgeSharing #LifeLessons #Interviews #Discipline  #InspireChange  

#ListenAndLearn  #MeaningfulDialogues  #Empowerment  #Curiosity

#JoeyPinzChats #JoeyPinz #JoeyPinzDiscipline #JPC #JoeyPinnzConversations

#PodMatch

 

&nb

Support the show

SPEAKER_00

Brad, dude. Brad, thank you so much for your time. Fascinating backstory. Uh, late 60s, all through the 70s. Brad was in the Peace Corps and he uh he was on in Micronesia in these small Marshall Islands, small little islands where he'd have a thatch hut and he'd teach all day and he'd eat with families. There was no electricity. Um fascinating some of the stories there. And um when he came back to the States afterwards, he went and did some uh teaching, some consulting at NASA, where he was introduced to a lot of leadership. Uh eventually his writing partner, we ended up writing many, many leadership books. Uh, I opened up, I love to talk about the difference between being a leader and a manager. Uh but then Brad makes the pivot to fiction writing. Love talking to fiction writers. Just where do these characters come from? The the whole idea is that I didn't when an author tells me, a fiction author tells me, I think I know what's gonna happen at the end, but let's see. As if, you know, they don't know. And the pen kind of takes over. It's fascinating to me. I love, I love talking about that. But um, great conversation with Brad. Thank you so much, and thank you for watching. And listen, I am Joey Pence, and here's my 45-second introduction. After starting my business in the 90s, I started developing poor habits of eating and my diet because of working way too much. Before you know, I found myself 340 pounds. The doctor told me if I don't lose the weight, I'm not gonna see my daughter graduate. Took the next seven months, lost 130 pounds. People think there's some secret. Ask me, how'd you lose that weight? Like there's some secret. There is no secret. How did I lose the weight? Just one word, discipline. I've had other successes in life, and I attribute them all to discipline. Now I'm not the king of discipline, but I believe that it can help all of us. Friends, colleagues convinced me to start a podcast. Podcast Mission, how do we better ourselves and society? I talked to interesting people in health, fitness, sport, wellness, business, technology, science, art and culture. And I eventually asked them how discipline plays a role in their life. Podcast vision, growth through learning from others. You're a big bicycler. So tell me about your favorite places you go to ride. Where have you visited on two wheels?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, not a big one. Um we live in New Orleans, and so we're riding the Mississippi, and so there's levees that go all along the Mississippi, and we bicycle along the uh levees in along the Mississippi, mighty Mississippi. How long have you been in in New Orleans? Um, I got here just before Katrina, so like 2004, unfortunately. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Tell me what Katrina was like to go through that.

SPEAKER_01

Well, uh, it was wild because um, you know, the day before, this was like late August, right? And so the day before there was a uh summer Mardi Gras party uh in down uh just a couple blocks from us. And so it was an outdoor parade. And so we were having a good time and stayed up late. And I got an early morning call the next morning from a cousin who lives in Dallas and says, Are you not getting out of there? Because it's now a uh category five. I think it was uh three when like a day before. Yeah, and so we had to we had to make a move real quick, uh, the whole city did. So we ended up in uh in Dallas with my cousins for uh a few months, and then uh my wife had uh relatives in uh in the Phoenix area, and we went there as well for about five or six months. Wow, and then uh you know we we her job kind of went away. I was doing consulting, so as long as I could get to an airport, I was fine. And uh, and then she got a job in uh in uh Jackson, Mississippi, so we moved to Jackson. We were running out, we had no damage from Katrina. We were so lucky. Wow, the closer you were from to the river, the higher the elevation and the of course it was the lake from the north of us, right?

SPEAKER_00

Poncha train, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, lake Poncha Train. So so we were lucky, it took us a couple of years to get back home, but uh yeah, that was quite an experience. Wow, so you were away for two years. Yeah, I mean we came back and uh visited, but we had rented our house out during the time to college students, so that worked out, but um yeah, two years before we actually moved fully back uh uh back in.

SPEAKER_00

Has it recovered? I mean, how long has it been?

SPEAKER_01

Uh 20 years this year. Twenty years or last 2025. So um uh yeah, uh in general, yes, there are still places that were bad before Katrina that they just haven't invested in, you know, to to recover. But um yeah, the city's uh uh obviously in much better shape uh now and um strengthen the levy protection system and and things. So yeah, but uh every year you knock on wood, you know, about Katrina, about uh hurricanes. Um just announced yesterday. In fact, it's supposed to be a milder hurricane season this year, so everybody's thankful for that.

SPEAKER_00

In this fast-paced MSP landscape, how do you stay ahead? Introducing MSP Influencer.com, your ultimate hub for MSP news, insights, and community connection powered by Forza Dash. More than 75,000 MSP subscribed to our MSP Influencer Pulse weekly newsletter, staying informed and ahead of industry trends. Tune in to emerging podcasts for Joey Pins and leading MSP voices offering essential tips of powerful insights and success stories. Explore multiple lines crafted specifically for MSP leaders delivering fresh perspectives and actionable strategies. Celebrate excellence with the industry leading Force Datch MSP influencer boards, recognizing innovation, leadership and impacting the MSP community, join thousands of MSP professionals who trust MSP influencer.com to grow their business and expand their networks. MSP Influencer.com, where today's MSP leaders connect collaborate and calendar, all powered by the Force Datch platform, helping MSP vendors work effectively with MSPs and helping MSPs grow. I'm in Western Florida now, so yeah, I heard that I heard that same report. Yeah, you just never know.

SPEAKER_01

No, no, you never know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Mother Nature is in charge, Brad.

SPEAKER_01

It it really is until we come up with something better. Yeah. It's gonna be uh tough to do.

SPEAKER_00

When did you first start writing?

SPEAKER_01

I was a journalism major in college, and so uh I've always had kind of a bent for that. But then when I started to uh to work overseas, I had downtime and stuff, and so uh kind of unique places and uh kind of meeting cool people all over the world, and uh so during downtime it would start to to write things down, jot ideas down, and then got you know more uh into it more. I didn't start doing the book stuff until uh I was working at NASA and a colleague of mine said, Hey, why don't we do something on leadership that we're teaching in this class? And uh so that's when I started to really get serious about it and start cranking out books.

SPEAKER_00

You mentioned being overseas, you were in the military.

SPEAKER_01

No, I was in quite the opposite. I was in the Peace Corps. That's right. In the Peace Corps.

SPEAKER_00

Why'd you join the Peace Corps?

SPEAKER_01

Tell me what that's like well uh it was I always had a I guess uh an urge to travel, and uh and it was uh you know in the uh late 60s and uh wanted to uh wanted to do that and uh kind of wanted to go to Africa. And so the joke with Peace Corps is if you put down on your application you want to go to Africa, they send you to the Pacific, and vice versa, you know. So it's about it. But of course it's volunteer, so you can you can decide. But I was so happy I was accepted. Uh and uh that was just uh you know, that was before the 69, before the draft lottery for Vietnam, which I won. The only lottery I won. I was number one uh in the in the draft lottery, but was uh headed to do uh physical army physicals before they would let me go overseas for Peace Corps, and I could have been pulled out anytime, but I wasn't. So I was real lucky. So yeah, Peace Corps. I was on a you know uh in the Marshall Islands on an outer island uh in the in the Marshall Islands, and uh that really got me thinking about writing and uh and it influenced uh really how I uh my uh the not my latest novel because it's kind of based on an being on an island.

SPEAKER_00

So I had a lot of experience being on islands, you know, and your goal tell me a day in the life in the late 60s and the Marshall Islands and the Peace Corps.

SPEAKER_01

Uh I was teaching, so a day in the life for me was uh kind of getting out getting up uh uh kind of with the sun, uh usually and uh putting my uh bucket of water out in the sun so it would warm up because there was no running water, of course, no electricity. Took a shower and then uh I was living right next to the school. So then and I taught all day. And then in the afternoon, um you'd kind of you'd visit families uh of the students uh nearby, kind of continuing to learn the language uh as much as you could. Um and uh you know, you'd have uh I usually ate my meals uh with uh uh a nearby family, and uh you know, it'd be by candle by fire uh around a fire pit uh and you'd have kerosene uh lanterns for light. And I would, you know, kind of everything closes up like about eight o'clock, it gets pitch black. So you have a massive amount of stars, of course, because you're out there, kind of no pollution. And um I'd be back in my uh thatched hut and with my lantern, I'd do some reading and do some writing and get up and do it all over again. So it was not for everybody, but uh uh I uh enjoyed it. And uh I did that for three years on different islands throughout the Micronesia Islands, and then I became a trainer uh for volunteers, new volunteers. I had to go through a three-month training program, and I was involved with that, and then ran training programs for Peace Corps throughout Micronesia, and I got to go to the Middle East to do the same thing and in Oman and uh yeah, and then I became staff uh and down in uh Samoa. I was a Peace Corps staff member and then came back to Micronesia as a staff member before I finished my time up there. Yeah. So Peace Corps played, I was, you know, most of the 70s, I was overseas with Peace Corps in one wow capacity or another.

SPEAKER_00

Is the Peace Corps still around now?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, apparently uh it is. I'm not I'm not in too much contact with them, but they're still uh they're still there.

SPEAKER_00

Wow. And their mission is just to help these these countries, these underdeveloped countries to get education, etc., to kind of bring them up.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's typically provide technical assistance that they've those countries feel they need help with. Uh and it's often education or health or agriculture. Um and it's to then it's the cultural exchange to learn about their issues and their cultures and for them to learn about us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So during this decade, I so I was born in 68, uh, Brad, but I I just I'm always fascinated at the climate. I mean, it was well, you weren't in the States, but here in the States at that time, I mean, it was post-Vietnam. You have all of this music and art, you know, disco, pop, rap is coming out all from, you know, from the frustration of the of the army, uh, excuse me, of that war. And you know, the 70s was a very different time, very creative time here in the States. And I I always I always marvel over what it was. I mean, I was only 10 years old, so I I had no real perspective. But did you feel any of that over there?

SPEAKER_01

Uh not as much. Um, like I, you know, I said I would only come back to the states a couple times during the 70s uh to visit family and stuff. But um yeah, uh it was a difficult time, but it was really where I was working, it was extremely difficult for other reasons. I don't think it was the influence uh of the war. Um and where I worked, they were mostly pro-American, so I didn't pick up any kind of negative hostility, yeah. Hostility from from locals. They were happy for the, you know, they were they were nation building themselves, and so anybody that can add help to that, you know, was a good thing. And is this where you developed your love of writing? Um yeah, I think I I think that it fleshed it out more than I mean, I was always doing some writing, and even back, you know, back in school, newspaper writing, but I got into kind of what if scenarios and started to influence uh the writing. And uh I and and we had movies out there, you know. So now I'm kind of doing writing screenplays. I've got four or five screenplays done, and so that's you know, it's easier to imagine these exotic places, you know, in movies. And uh but then it so it's a combination of of being there and in that kind of environment and having some time uh to do it because you weren't working all the time, and you'd have a lot of downtime between training courses or stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00

Was there a turning point? Describe to me the turning point. There must have been some point where you wrote a sentence, you wrote a paragraph, you wrote a couple pages where you said, Wow, I you know, I can do this.

SPEAKER_01

Um I think uh yeah, during my during my Peace Corps time, I was writing, and I took a shot at writing about the Peace Corps experience, and I would give parts of it to friends to read. And I think the feedback I got was positive, and so that kind of said, ah, maybe I can really do this. So it's you know, it's about feedback. I mean, we all need feedback, uh, even in leadership, yeah, that's important. So uh I think that's that's when I thought, you know, it's worth continuing. I think if they would have said, hey, this is crap, you'd say, okay, you know, I'm not gonna spend too much more time on it. But um, they were real nice, and uh, of course they might have been just nice because they were friends of mine, too. But I, you know, don't want to think that way.

SPEAKER_00

Sure, regardless, here we are. It's amazing to me the discipline of writing, because you know, I've taken, of course, to courses and everything, and I tried to write, but I always end up writing the way I speak, and that's like the first thing you can't do, correct?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think some courses would say you you have to write what you know and write from experience. Um and so you know, it the challenge is always what's your voice? You know, what what's your even writing a screenplace? The criticism you get, the feedback you get is what's your voice here? You know, where are you coming from with this? If you're a reporter, you know, you're writing just the facts and you're not having a voice. Or you shouldn't. Right. You know, you can't help it, but theoretically you you shouldn't have a voice because that's an editorial. If you're writing your voice, that's an editorial. It's different than a news story. So, you know, I you know, I don't know. I I think that that's constantly uh uh a battle is you know, is it too much, you know, is it opinion or is it part of the story? Does it fit the characters? So writing a novel, you know, it's doing the research and trying to come from different characters. My novel, you know, I have a German female as the lead. So how do you I'm not a German female if you haven't noticed I haven't. It's it's uh it's it's a challenge. And so you constantly want to get some feedback from people, um, ideally from German women, to see if that makes sense. So yeah, uh voice is always uh an issue in uh uh so is the first book you wrote the the leadership one in NASA? Uh yeah, the first one is when I was right. Uh uh my colleague and I, uh Jim Harden, wrote uh What Makes You Tick and What Ticks You Off. Uh the basic elements of temperament, right?

SPEAKER_00

So the first foray is nonfiction for you, it's in leadership, it's the business.

SPEAKER_01

The first six, the first six books are on uh leadership and management, yeah. Because that's what we were doing. Uh that's we we were really getting good feedback on our uh model on temperament, uh and you know, from Ken Blanchard and others uh you know in the leadership field. And so uh that's we're trying to try to do different applications of that in different scenarios. For example, teen driving, uh uh how can knowing about your temperament help teens thrive better with more awareness, then of course with leadership. So yeah, the first six books uh I I did were all on uh on leadership and management.

SPEAKER_00

Tell me your experience at NASA. NASA's very much in the news these days.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um yeah, uh we had a contract uh to uh provide uh leadership training for at three different levels of uh NASA managers. I was kind of in the mid-level dealing with uh you know, we basically deal with scientists, engineers, and kind of others, administrative types. And um we would do uh three or four days of training uh each month with them for uh three or four months. So we did that for nine years a long contract, and uh yeah, so it was a fascinating place to work. Young people, brilliant, we have smart. Yeah, but uh and NASA was rated by the best government agency to work for for many years. I've heard that.

SPEAKER_00

I've heard that, yeah. Brad, what's the difference between a leader and a manager?

SPEAKER_01

Well, it's it's a big one. I got it in one of my books. Um and that the uh challenge today with that is that nobody's really hired to be a leader. You're hired typically to be a manager, and then you're expected to be a leader, you know, as well. Uh the dichotomy, you know, leadership, a way of thinking about it is that leadership uh leaders uh do the right things where managers do things right. So so you have a little different perspective. Um leaders challenge existing systems where managers make efficient make current systems more effective and more efficient. So that's kind of the difference. Um a colleague of mine who ran the one of the Navy uh research labs said that leaders uh leaders uh hear where there is no sound and see where there is no light. Whoa. Where managers have to know exactly what's going on all the time with the with the room. And the idea there is that leaders have to look forward several years perhaps for their organization. Where managers are here and now, we got a deadline, we've got you know deliverables. The leaders side is more of where is our organization going? Do I have the right people in the next few years to do what we need to do? So it's a difference in perspective. Can leaders be good managers? Sure. Can managers be good leaders sometimes, not always.

SPEAKER_00

I've had managers, Brad, that thought they were leaders. That can be a very tough conversation. Um ego kind of gets in the way, but both are very, very important. We need both.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah, we need both. Leaders uh who are impractical, you know, are dreamers. It's they don't nothing gets done. I did a book called 40 Ways of Figuring Out Your Boss and uh took it with each uh of our basic uh uh temperament uh focus. And so to try to give us some ideas about what do you do when you have a a boss who really uh is not a good leader, you know, and what can you do about it? So it's A it's a challenge, no question about it.

SPEAKER_00

When you're writing these leadership, these nonfiction books, do you have a target audience in mind or is it for everyone?

SPEAKER_01

Um, I do have a target audience, and it's mostly for new leaders. I mean, my last leadership book was like Quick, I need to be a leader in 30 days. And and and that was kind of based on the NASA experience, because oftentimes people are promoted because of their technical expertise. The example you gave of your manager is probably like that. Good, good at whatever he or she did. And so they they give them a promotion, and now they're in charge of you know, eight people who are doing what they used to do. And the problem is that they have no, I mean really managerial skills. And so the problem that I've seen the most is that they don't know what to do except look over the shoulder of the people doing what they used to do, and and we call that micromanaging, and it leads to you know poor morale and people upset and people kind of sabotaging the organization because they're fed up with their boss, you know. So uh yeah, so but I think it's uh I've had other you know people look at the book and you know it's good for exact it's kind of a refresher course for uh leaders and managers, for senior leaders and managers, but it's also uh kind of a good for for my target audience was brett new leaders, newly assigned leaders or those who hope to be leaders.

SPEAKER_00

Brad at NASA, did any of the leaders or leadership surprise you? Did you learn any lessons about how they were operating?

SPEAKER_01

Uh, sure, sure. I mean, um I think one of the takeaways from them uh was the whole idea of fear of missing out, the FOMA thing. Really? For them, the big issue is work-life balance because they work ungodly hours. Yeah. And I would bring in uh executive, senior executives kind of in a panel discussion, and I would ask the leaders, because our participants wouldn't ask tough questions to their bosses, right? So I would do it and say, Well, tell me what do you think about work life balance? You know, should people be taking time off? Yes, you know, the exec seniors would say, senior executives would say, Yes, we believe people should rest and uh take time off. So then they would leave, and then the people we talk about it, and our participants say, Yeah, we can't do that. We can't, because something might happen that might impact our promotion, our projects, our experiences. So with them, they were always kind of on, even if they weren't physically in the in the building, you know, they had to be on all the time. Um, even though lip service was paid to a work-life balance. So that was one of the biggest things I uh takeaways. Um, you know, you had interesting participants and and not so interesting, you know, they would uh you'd have you know these young astrophysicists, you know, who would come into the course thinking they knew it all, and we'd do exercises and activities for them, and you know, they they their eyes widen every, you know, with within an hour of the course. Yeah, because they, you know, are in that course because they were just promoted, or you know, they thought they knew what that organization or their team or their project needed, but they uh you know got feedback from their peers that it's you know wasn't quite the case. So there's a lot of learning going. It was, I mean, it's a training program. You that's what you hope is that you know people's uh minds are expanded by that.

SPEAKER_00

Overall, you were impressed with the leadership there, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah, very much. It's funny that uh one of the senior executives, I I didn't know it in advance, that we invited into our course was a trainee of mine in Peace Corps on the island of Saipan, like 25 years earlier. Well, that was kind of cool. Small world. And he brought it up, you know. He was I'm standing in the back of the room and he was talking to the group, and it's like, yeah, well, I've been in, I've been like you before. In fact, that guy back there was my teacher. You know, everybody, all the heads turned. Um said, Hey, don't say I'm not that old, so uh don't bring that up. So uh oh, it's fascinating. Uh it's a very impressive organization. Um, and it's I'm I'm glad they're getting so much attention now with Artemis.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, it's very impressive, yeah. You mentioned work-life balance. I mean, that's that's a struggle in in any industry, right? Especially here in the States. We work a lot. I mean, is it truly achievable, Brad?

SPEAKER_01

Um is it truly achievable? I think it depends on your perspective. Uh, it can be uh if I think you are happy with where you are in your organization and do not fight internal battles with yourself about can I do more, can I be more, should I be doing more? Uh it's part of you know the whole leadership thing about self-awareness is to me the number one takeaway for leadership. If if you are self-aware, I think you can achieve a work-life balance because you'll not take you know, you'll you'll make it more. I don't think it's equal. I think uh the home life is more important, and I think they get people get there through over over time when they realize that more um and they come to grips with their careers.

SPEAKER_00

So your work on temperament is really interesting, Brad. Uh give me some basic elements of temperament in simple terms.

SPEAKER_01

Uh well that's that's why we came up with that model, because everything else was too complex. I mean, people have heard of the Myers-Briggs type indicator, 16 boxes, there are 12 box models, seven, nine box models. Disc. We disc we would ask our participants when we came to that part of our courses. Uh, how many of you have done MBTI or this or that? And they'd raise their hands, said, Okay, leave your hands up. Tell me if you know what those uh that number, those letters stand for, and hands would drop down. And so we found that they did it uh kind of check the box that they had to do those kind of personality things, but um they couldn't remember anything. So we were looking, uh, I would say we, my friend Jim Harden and I, who developed a model, we said, uh, well, let's make it basic, the elements of earth, uh, earth, air, fire, and water. Four. And we all have all four within us. You know, uh temperament is that inborn part of our personality that influences us, how we look at the world, how we look at the behavior of others, and we don't always know why we think those behaviors are bothersome or not right. And so uh earth, air, fire, water, and we're born with them like plates stacked up in a restaurant, all four. And each one, each one of us has a unique uh l order of temperament, earth, air, fire, water. So you have earth, earth who are the more conservative uh uh people look at the past into structure, into planning. Oftentimes they're the ones that made rules in the organization. Yeah, so conservative earth, and we all have earth in us. Air. Uh airs are um the more intellectual types, they don't get along with people as much as the work, they enjoy working alone. It's the uh the extreme, each one of these has extreme behaviors. It's like the Sheldon on uh uh the uh the comedy big bang theory on the big bang theory, that's to the extreme brilliant uh looks ahead uh about the organization, but can't really relate to people too much. Competence is their thing. If you're not competent, you've got a problem with them. So that's earth, air, fire. Fires are uh more troubleshooters, they enjoy uh uh figuring out problems, they um they have a sense of humor, they uh will try one thing one day and not the other, and different ways of doing things, having a lot of fun along the way. Fire. It's the dopamine rush that's in them that's what does it. Water uh are the more uh family-oriented or people-oriented oriented people, they are the ones who uh get along with the other three uh temperaments really well, they're the ones who uh really enjoy personnel issues, making policies that help uh their fellow colleagues, they're the ones who knows everybody's name, even the names of their spouses, and they run the birthday parties and stuff like that. So, earth, air, fire, water. So that's what we all have, but in that stack, earth, air, fire, water, the last one, the first one is called your dominant temperament. I see, and that's your most preferred way of looking at the world and how you want people to look at you, whichever one that is, earth, air, fire, or water, secondary, tertiary, kind of neutral. The last one is called the shadow temperament, the fourth one, whichever that is for you, earth, air, fire, or water. And that's the one that typically gets us in trouble. Oftentimes, when we see the shadow behavior, whichever one that is, in our employees, we have often have a negative reaction to it. We think something's wrong there, whichever one it is. And so a lot of in our training and the books I the six books I've written on on temperament and how it influences us as managers and leaders, shadow is uh probably the most important, and that's the one in our leadership courses at NASA opened up the most discussion and uh and most interest, I would say, because oftentimes people don't even realize they have a shadow. Uh, and this is all based, you know, I didn't invent this. It's uh Freud and Jung, you know, the psychoanalysts that comes from them. It comes from, you know, uh oftentimes we don't even remember uh or why it's like that, but we just have that feeling, that gut feeling that this employee is screwing up. And oftentimes it's because uh they're they are demonstrating your shadow behavior. So that's our model about temperament. And so we'll spend a lot of time in our leadership. We spent a lot of time in our leadership courses talking about the shadow and why it bothers other people. And you know, we put them in groups, all the earths over here, all the shadow. Now go to your shadow temper and talk about that. Why you know what bug what bugs you? If you're a dominant earth and uh your shadow is a fire, why is it that that guy's always making jokes that bothers you, or he doesn't take the work, it seems like he doesn't take it seriously? Well, for him, that's his dominant temperament fire, but it's your shadow, and you think something's wrong with that. So that's a thumbnail of kind of what that is.

SPEAKER_00

What if discipline wasn't about punishment, but about unlocking your best self? I spent two and a half years writing discipline for greatness, because discipline changed my life, and I know it can change yours too. Discipline theory, inside you'll find real practical steps you can use immediately to focus better, build stronger habits, reduce stress, accomplish your goals, and bring more balance to your life. Whether you're trying to get healthier, improve your career, or simply feel more control. This book gives you the framework. Grab your copy of Discipline for Greatness at joypins.com slash book. Thank you. I can see how that be I've done similar workshops with disc, and um, I'm in the IT field, and this one particular author had similar, he had four different animal types, and uh, you know, we get in these groups, and it's just not only knowing yourself, but knowing how to work with others. So it's really, really beneficial.

SPEAKER_01

Sure. No, that's what it is, and uh other models are like emotional intelligence, is kind of like that. It's an idea of knowing yourself and knowing how why you react and feel the way you do about people, and acknowledging that and doing something about it, you know, and not and not you know, rushing to judgment, not having knee knee-jerk reactions.

SPEAKER_00

So, what is your primary, secondary, and shadow in these? I'm an heir.

SPEAKER_01

Uh, my I'm a dominant heir, uh, and uh water is my shadow. And so that becomes interesting when you think about uh marriage. My wife's a water, and I'm uh you know, that's my shadow. And so what happens is that you can get pissed off more easily, but you that it realize that's what's going on, and so you can tolerate more uh of that. Um, you know, uh there was a lady that uh did a book. Um, what was her name? Um forgetting her name now. She but she was hired by Match.com. She interviewed 45,000 people and came up with you know the whole thing about opposites attracting, and uh, you know, and so that that was interesting uh uh too. And it and it followed uh what we felt as well, uh especially about the Shadow Templament, about opposites attracting.

SPEAKER_00

So when, Brad, when did you decide to make the switch from you know this very serious leadership and deep, you know, nonfiction writing about leadership over to fiction and playwriting?

SPEAKER_01

Um I I think it happened. I always wanted to write something about uh living on an island because of my Peace Corps experience in the Pacific. Uh and um my wife works with uh migrants, and migrants are uh you know it's a big issue all over the world. Yeah, sure is and so um I had uh some time, of course, during the uh during COVID, all my training at NASA ended, and nobody was doing in-person meetings or training. So I really didn't have a whole lot to do. I did a couple of training programs over Zoom, they just weren't, you know, it's not the same. Um it was okay, but not great. Like my in-person classes were always great, so I had time and I thought, well, you know, why don't we try something? And so I just started to do research on uh what was going on with because I was also reading articles about people drowning, that bothered me in the Mediterranean. Um, they would slap dash overcrowded canoes or rafts together to get from North Africa to Europe, right? Mostly Italy, closest thing. Sicily, yeah. And they didn't even know how many people were drowning.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_01

So that bothered me. And I thought, hey, so I started doing more research about it. So I did a lot of research about uh how people got uh from you know through the Sahara and uh uh to uh Libya to get on these uh on these boats, and what about rescue ships that in the Mediterranean? I found that mostly it was a couple of German ships and it was only like one female captain, and so I said, hey, that's let me go with that awesome. So I put together, hey, what if if these people are rescued but they can't get off anywhere and they don't want to go home for fear of death, they're asylum seekers, you know, and uh running away from who knows what gangs or governments. Or what if they found an island that they could actually just all live in? What would that be like? And then uh so that's what kind of got it started, and so we ended up with uh uh do it going that way, but then wanting to put in more uh challenges, uh to kind of a metaphor for all the challenges that migrants face every day, really. And so we had that place run by uh had this idyllic uh island uh run by modern-day pirates who were human trafficking the uh the uh migrants. So finding Eden, they were looking for that ideal place uh and going through a perilous quest. So that's the book was a perilous quest for a safe migrant homeland. And uh so that's that's how we came up with that.

SPEAKER_00

You mentioned before when you're writing nonfiction that you have a certain kind of reader in mind, but now with fiction, anybody can pick up the book, right? So you you do you have to write differently, and how concerned are you with the reader not closing the book and leaving?

SPEAKER_01

Um you do have to write uh I have to write differently with the novel because uh it because I've never done that before. Right. Well, with the leadership stuff, it's based on kind of experience or what I've seen reactions to different by different classes and and and consulting all over the world. You know, I did management leadership consulting, uh 30 plus countries, so that kind of in influenced the leadership books, but the novel a little bit different. Now I'm writing from a different perspective, and so it you definitely have to kind of change. Like I said, I'm writing from the point of view of a German woman captain, sea captain. Uh and then you're writing from the perspective of a modern-day pirate. And so research will kind of set the context you know for it. But you actually have to write, you know, a little bit differently. So your your audience is general, the general public. I think everybody could would get a kick out of it. Um because it's a pirate story, it's a migrant story, it's a sea raging sea storm uh story, it's a little bit of politics and a little bit of religion uh in there as well, because these groups of folks uh are religious. Uh many of them are. But it's also about uh, you know, racism, because I've got the pirates dividing people up by race into villages who f who it and pretend and and force them to think, make them think that they're fighting each other. So there's a lot of different elements to it that I thought a story like that could could tell. So I think it it would it would be of interest for different kinds of readers.

SPEAKER_00

So do you storyboard, Brad? Do you know the the the plight and the plot and what's going to happen to each character before writing?

SPEAKER_01

I don't storyboard, um, or I didn't storyboard. Um, even with my screenplays, I don't. I had an ending in mind, so I had to have that. I had a beginning and an ending, and that got me going with it. And then you kind of like like take you kind of write until you're caught. You know, you write yourself into a corner and say, now what do you do? What would you do? What would they do? You know. Um, and so that was I I thought that was fascinating for me. I enjoyed doing. That uh and you get stuck. Uh especially was interesting for me about the uh how people get uh overloaded into the back of uh pickup trucks and these caravans, go through the desert uh through the Sahara. And so I actually I use actual uh oasis towns from my research in the book to make it as uh uh you know real and and accurate as possible, the the what where they actually go. And um and and describe and then you know it's so great with the internet you can you know click on an oasis and you can almost get a picture of everyone and get an idea. And so then that helps to describe kind of what you see and where they're going and what they're doing, and you know, it's the sand and the wind and the cold and um and smugglers, etc. etc. So it was uh yeah, it was yeah, it was not storyboarded, but it uh yeah, it was beginning and ending, is I think that was important to have.

SPEAKER_00

I I marvel over fiction writers. Sometimes when I talk to them, Brad, how they tell me, you know, like you said, it you had an ending for the character, but sometimes they say things like, oh, this character ended up dying. I didn't even know that, or this happened to that character, and it just like you said, you kind of go into a corner. It's amazing to me that the pen kind of takes over. Can you explain how that happens?

SPEAKER_01

Um, I don't know. I can only say for me, when I've uh you know, would write myself into a corner like that, you you have to think about it, and you either uh for me, it was either uh take it back a couple of steps and do it differently, or it's hey, this is what they could possibly do, which is you know, is it believable or not? Could I do that? Could this character do that uh or not? And then you kind of let it flow and it uh and it either works or it doesn't, real real quick, I think. You know, so there's no uh you know, it's hard to explain. You you kind of let it go until you can't, until it doesn't go anymore, and you're just staring at the blank page again and saying, you know, this isn't working. That was for me, it didn't that didn't happen that much. It didn't happen that much. Um it was more of you know, boy, this this this trek through the Sahara is taking a long time, you know. Will, you know, and it's based on reality of what I read and researched that it takes. And uh you know, uh I got to that point, and then it's hey, we're in Libya, we're waiting for uh, you know, how do you get from off the truck to onto a a ship? And so that's more research, you know, and and you kind of come up with uh uh uh as much information that's accurate as possible, and then you kind of make it into the story, make it fit into the story. Not sure if I'm explaining that, you know, well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I don't think you have uh it's it's all part of your process, and you're you're writing you all are you always creating?

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah, yeah. And then you're editing. Yeah, you're you're that that's the hard part of the novel. It's you write it and then you have to rewrite it, you know, a number of times. And uh so that's that's that's the the probably the part I I dislike the most about writing the novel was you know, if you're off for the weekend or something, you come back and you say, you know, I gotta start from the beginning, so you have to read it all over again to see, you know, is this follows, does this make sense? So that's that that's the editing part, it's really something.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I I wrote a book as well, and the editing was so painful, so you know, and you know, it's just I it's it's hard to think about the book without thinking of the pain of going through all that editing for years. Is there something that you believed in firmly, Brad, 10 years ago that you no longer believe?

SPEAKER_01

Well, probably without getting too much into politics today, it's uh you know, a belief that the government would do the right thing uh in general. Uh even though I was kind of you know through the Vietnam stage, I was feeling better about it ten years ago, I would say, and uh feeling that we were on the right track in general. I think that's changed quite a bit. I'm much you know more suspicious of government, you know, intrigue today and decisions that are made.

SPEAKER_00

You're more suspicious now than you were then.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Fascinating. Yeah. So I started my business back in the 90s, Brad, and I was working hard and I was in my 20s, and you know, I was invincible, so I fell, right? So it was 15 hours, 16 hour days, and um not paying attention to myself, and uh, you know, it goes in the backseat, you know, everything's in the job. So I'm in front of the doctor. She tells me I'm at 340 pounds. So I gained this terrible amount of weight, yeah. And she says to me, if you don't lose this weight, you're not gonna see your daughter graduate. So my daughter was just born. Scared the life out of me, as you can imagine, right? So I'm driving home, punching the steering wheel, you know, look what I've done. This is my pie hole. I did this to myself. Um, so I spent the next, you know, I can abuse myself all I want, Brad, right? But now it's much bigger than me, right? I have a family now. And so the next six, seven months, let's spend 120 pounds, and I kept it off. You know, you can't look at these things like finishing lines, you know, these are lifelong changes. And when I tell people this, they always say, What's your secret? What you do? And there's no secret, just discipline, you know, focus, routine, systems, uh, motivation. How does discipline play a role in your life, Brad?

SPEAKER_01

Dude, well, uh, first of all, congratulations on losing all that weight. That's incredible. Um discipline, you know, I'm uh you know, I've gone through stages, I think, uh, with discipline. Um when you're a teacher, when I was a Peace Go volunteer teacher, you know, you had starting time and quitting time and lesson planning, and there were things that you had to do to prepare yourself. And so I was felt quite disciplined in having all those lessons all ready. Because I really wasn't trained as a teacher, and so uh you know, that I was nervous and anxious all the time to be in the classroom in front of kids. And uh so I was quite disciplined in in preparing for my lessons. Um after that, I was running training programs for Peace Corps, and I had to be disciplined again because it was setting up, it was hiring folks by a certain time, and it was making sure I was staying within a budget, et cetera, et cetera. All required discipline, I felt. Uh and then as a consultant, I had to be disciplined because I'd be flown into you know, like uh flown into the Philippines and I was doing a presentation at a leadership conference or something. And so at a certain time, I had to do certain things, I had to make the agenda. So that that was there was discipline with that too. Making your flight, making sure all your ranged logistics were all set. Uh and then uh doing training uh I worked with Westinghouse and then uh with other uh consulting companies, and then ultimately with working with NASA, again, you had uh a certain amount of time things you had to do, you had to stay on the agenda, so very disciplined. And now writing, I'm a little bit less disciplined in general, but once I start, uh I'm writing a screenplay right now, and you can't let it go. You have you have to stay on top of it, and so there's a discipline of hey, I gotta I gotta get this part done, what happens next? I don't have an absolute deadline like I had in other parts of my life, but um I feel there's a discipline to the writing that uh must be done, and of course, as you rewrite and edit, that to me is a big discipline because you you don't want to start from scratch every time. You want to keep, you know, in the Navy they say the bubble, you know, you gotta stay with the keep the bubble uh afloat. And so discipline has played a actually a large part of uh of my career, I would say. Um yeah, it kind of depends how you're defining that. I mean, for you as well, with the weight loss, it was a lifestyle, you know, and you can call that discipline because you weren't, you know, eating French fries every time, uh, you know, anymore. Um, and that's a way of looking at uh at discipline, you know, too. So it can be lifestyle, and there can be uh, you know, different parts of your life that's more disciplined than others, I would say.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and that I am not the king of discipline by far, right? So um I set up systems, it's the way I look at it, and it's it's fascinating to me the different answers I get in that area. Brett, is there a question that you wished more people would ask you?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, um you know, uh I I probably uh uh don't get asked too much about um you know about the uh uh way of conducting research um too much, you know. And that really came out with this uh with the Finding Eden novel, I would say. Um because you know, we can say research, I mean, research is is quote research, but how do you really how do you do it? Um and um I found that a real challenge. I find it a lot easier to do screenplays because it's more kind of in your imagination. Uh and you want to make it realistic, but you don't have to do the research uh into it as much as when you're doing a novel, because you want the reader to have some kind of believability, even with a novel, right? You want to make it somewhat believable. And so um, yeah, I would I would say probably around the research. Not that that that is that that important at all. I mean, everybody has their own way of kind of every writer has their own way of getting there, getting to the end. But um, yeah, for me, there was a lot of research done on that.

SPEAKER_00

So it surprises you how much research you had to do on in fiction versus your leadership nonfiction.

SPEAKER_01

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00

Because with non with leadership, you you grow you grow from experience, you have a partner, you talk about it, you create a plan, but with fiction, it's all in your head. So people just think it kind of spit it out when that's not the case at all. I end up learning a lot from fiction because it's talking about a particular time or a particular geography or people, etc.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean I took pride in making my novel as accurate and realistic as as possible. Like I said, I used actual names of uh oases along the way in the Sahara that followed uh some of my characters getting to uh getting to Libya. Uh it's how the rescue ship operates, um, and then living on an island. I had some experience there, so that helped. That helped. But certainly dealing with uh human trafficking and uh slavery today, all had uh all had to do a lot of research. I I had you know no clue about before.

SPEAKER_00

Hey Brad, what would break your current success right now if you stopped doing it?

SPEAKER_01

Um not that I have a whole lot of success uh to do this. Um I would break it. Uh I don't know. I think if I got uh a whole bunch of negative reviews or something, it would make me think of maybe not doing much writing anymore. But I've been lucky. I mean, with Fighting Eden right now, it's on uh on uh uh Amazon. On Amazon, I've got like 132 reviews or something like that so far, and they're all pretty positive. And so that was good. But if that were just the opposite, uh, you know, I'd kind of think twice about it. I mean, it I'm not that now with my screenplays. I mean, I've got four four screenplays done, and I've got them listed on the International Uh Screen Writers Association website, but I don't get any feedback and interesting, you you don't, you know, the screenplay is a different, you know, I have no connections with with Hollywood at all, and so I feel good about the stories, but if nothing happens, it then it's to me it's a hobby. It's a hobby until you sell one, right? So uh I'm not sure it would make me stop uh if I never get a one call or if I never get any positive feedback on the screenplays. I mean, I I entered them in contests and stuff, and uh you know, you get uh quarter finalists, semi-finalist, or something like that, and you feel good about that. But if there was absolutely nothing, I think I would still keep doing because I just find it fun uh to do. So um, yeah, I'm not sure anything could make me entirely quit. Um yeah, that I can think of.

SPEAKER_00

So I I this is intriguing, Brad, because the the the art versus science with you. I mean, because your leadership, you know, you're very focused, you're you know, you're air sign, you're an intellectual, so there's a lot of science there. But you're also writing fiction and you and you're uh you know, you you ride bikes and you're you're doing this kind of thing. So when you're making a decision, how often do you rely on your gut? What is your art versus science balance, you think?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, uh what we like to say is I'm I'm developing my uh my water uh temperament, or I'm developing, you know, the idea is with temperament training is that we develop all four of our temperaments as much as we can. And so uh there are there are decisions that have to be made that are kind of earth type decisions. Do I pay this bill now or do I pay it later? You know, there's deadlines and it's very kind of earthy. Uh and so I would I I would, even though I'm not a dominant earth, I react to those deadlines and and and do that without and and meet those deadlines in my life, you know, without too much of a problem. And so um the artsy one, you know, it's kind of my fire and water, having fun, trying to do things differently. Um uh I think as I grow older, I'm becoming a little bit more earth, more conservative in how I do things. I think earlier in my life, uh even though I I was an heir, I'm an air dominant heir, I was doing a lot of fire things. You know, fire is kind of doing different kinds of activities, not doing the same thing the same way. Impulsive? Um, sure, you can be impulsive at times. It's tough when, especially if you have a fire boss, you kind of don't know what you're gonna do today when you go to work because he or she may come up with a different idea. Hey, why don't we try this or try that? I think I was more willing to do those kinds of things when I was younger. I think uh I recognize those things as options on the art side, but I think I'm thinking a little bit more conservative today, more earth today, on is there a payoff? Is it worth the time? So I I think I think I'm kind of assessing uh those things more than I used to.

SPEAKER_00

What motivates you, Brad?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I think um, I think that uh activities that uh help the family, uh activities that um are uh that I haven't things I haven't done before uh would motivate me. Uh that's getting that's getting into my fire a little bit more. Um I think uh I think I'm motivated by uh by reading more. I think that's my air coming out. Um I uh but I enjoy reading a lot of I I mostly enjoy writing uh reading action adventure type stuff. And so that's kind of motivates me to get back into my screenplay. My screenplays are mostly action adventure. In fact, one of the screenplays is of Finding Eden, because I always thought that would make a great movie. And so uh yeah, so I think that that motivates me as well.

SPEAKER_00

Um legacy, family, new experiences, learning. I'm gonna assume impact too motivates you. So, given all those motivators, Brad, how do you measure success? I mentioned what would break success earlier, but how do you measure it now, given all that motivation?

SPEAKER_01

Well, John Maxwell, the the he's a great leadership author, writes um the true measurement of leadership is uh influence, nothing more, nothing less. And so I would say that plus integrity, because we can be influenced by a lot of creepy things that happen in life today. But I so I add integrity. I think influence with if I can influence with integrity in my community, in my family, uh, in my profession, I think that that is a measurement of success.

SPEAKER_00

Want to show your love for discipline, inspiration, and the Joey Pens podcast? Now's your chance. Introducing the brand new Joey Pins merch store, where style meets discipline. Choose from premium apparel, coffee hoodies, stylish hats, terrible panics, and your new favorite coffee. Every merchant supports the joypins discipline and versus helping us continue to inspire free discipline. Joey Pins merch. Wear it, share it, and live it.

SPEAKER_01

That's for me.

SPEAKER_00

Very cool. Absolute pleasure talking to you, Brad. It's very fascinating here where you were, where you are now, and what you do. Um, I really appreciate your time. Anyone watching or listening, how can they get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_01

Um, I've got an interesting website, I think. You do Brad, yeah, Bradnew.com. Uh and uh it's got uh it's got a lot of my uh all the organizations I used to work with is there. But uh when it comes to temper, I've got a quiz for you and for the listener. And uh it is um which of the four basic elements are killing your career? And it's a very simple little uh quiz to take. And as you go through it, you enter your uh your email address, and it'll take you to a more thorough explanation of each of the four talent uh temperaments. Uh so uh that's the best way is uh braddude.com. I'm on tic tac, uh TikTok doing a couple of uh little videos. From different places I've been in, which is Brad Dude slash author, I think. So a couple ways of getting a hold of me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, Amazon. You've got all your books there. I'll make sure to put all those links up. Brad, next time I find myself in the uh great New Orleans area, perhaps we'll get a cup of tea.

SPEAKER_01

Looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you so much. You'll be well.

SPEAKER_01

Joe, you too. Thanks so much. Really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for listening andor viewing Joey Pins Discipline Conversations. Please share this episode with one or two of your friends who you think may benefit from the episode. Our website, www.joepins.com. There you find lots of resources, and you could join our mailing list. Please follow us on all our social media, Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Podcast information, the video version of our podcast is on YouTube. Please subscribe. Audio is on all major podcasting platforms. Please follow them. And if you like it, please consider giving five star rating. Would really appreciate that. Thank you again for listening or watching Joey Pin's Discipline Conversations.