Joey Pinz Discipline Conversations

#863 Nable Empower 2026: Stefanie Hammond - Turning Trust Into Revenue for MSP Growth 🚀

• Joey Pinz • Episode 863

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🚀 What if your marketing didn’t just attract attention—but actually converted into real conversations and revenue?

In this episode, Joey Pinz sits down with a seasoned MSP growth expert to break down what’s really working in today’s sales and marketing landscape. From the evolving buyer journey to the power of trust-driven content, this conversation is packed with actionable insights for MSPs and business leaders looking to grow smarter—not just faster.

💡 With buyers doing more research than ever (often anonymously), your website, messaging, and content strategy must do the heavy lifting before a single sales call happens. This episode introduces the concept of the “trust thermometer”—and how to warm it up intentionally through education, consistency, and clarity.

🔥 Top 3 Highlights:

  • 📈 Why trust—not traffic—is the real driver of conversions 
  • 🧠 How AI and self-educated buyers are reshaping sales 
  • 💰 The surprising power of transparent pricing to qualify better leads 

If you're in MSP, B2B, or service-based business—this is a practical roadmap to better conversations, stronger positioning, and higher-value clients.

 

 

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Join us for enlightening discussions that spark growth and exploration. 

Hosted by Joey Pinz, this Discipline Conversations Podcast offers insights and inspiration.

 

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Discipline. How does it play a role in your life? How does it drive your decisions? Do you have too much or too little? Every profession, hobby, or passion requires a level of discipline. I have used it in weight loss (+130 lbs.), family death, and found a +25 year business. Am I an expert? Absolutely not! Please join me, as I speak to interesting people and find out how discipline affects their career, life, goals, and decisions. Join me as I talk to interesting people in: #Health, #Fitness & #Wellness: #Business, #Technology & #Science: #Art & #Culture: Website: joeypinz.com All social media @TheJoeyPinz Do you wish to Sponsor? Get the prospectus here: www.joeypinz.com/sponsor

 

 

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SPEAKER_04

Enable Empower 2026. What a great event. First time I've ever gone. I was invited by their excellent leadership team. Sold-out event there in Fort Lauderdale were 650 MSPs, great talking tracks, great keynotes. Like I said, the leadership was great. They had this whole nerd area. It was like a cafe kind of area where people can go in and get some help. It was just set up really, really well. Leadership was incredible. Kim, MK, and Nadia, you know, that helped me and a couple other podcasters that were there as well, but just an incredible event. Was able to have five great conversations. Started off with Nadia, of course, Carasteros and why community wins in the MSE world. I've had the pleasure of knowing Nadia for quite a while now, 15 years. Great for the community. She's just uh really energetic. Great, great conversation. The CEO, John Pagliuka. We have a lot of common. Uh, in common, John and I, of course, were uh big Manchester City fans. It was announced at this event that Enable has partnered with them, the official sponsor of their cybersecurity there, the CTO of uh Man City was speaking on stage with John, uh building resilience businesses like a championship team. Vikram Ramesh, great conversation with Vikram, the CMO. Uh, has an engineer back background, and now he's completely uh in this role now and and and loving it. Really engaging conversation. I enjoy talking to marketing uh people from engineer to storyteller, winning in the AI era. And Stephanie Hammond, oh, what a delight. I got to meet Stephanie when I was there. Um, and she ran the whole Nerd Cafe there. Really interesting insight, turning trust into revenue for MSP growth. He's been with Enable. I think she was like number 109 employee, something like that, 105, and there's well over 1900 employees now. Uh great conversation with Stephanie, lots of energy. Um look forward to uh working with again with her again in the future. And last but not least, Frank Coletti. Um, another person I have a lot in common with. Um, he is uh scaling MSP success in a changing tech landscape. A lot in common with Frank and uh really great conversation, really engaging. The leadership, like I said, team there was tremendous. Really enjoyed my time at Empower 2026. Hi, I'm Joey Pins, and here's my 45-second introduction. After starting my business in the 90s, I started developing poor habits of eating in my diet because of working way too much. Before you know it, I found myself 340 pounds. The doctor told me if I don't lose the weight, I'm not gonna see my daughter graduate. Took the next seven months, lost 130 pounds. People think there's some secret. Ask me, how'd you lose that weight? Like there's some secret. There is no secret. How'd I lose the weight? Just one word. Discipline. I've had other successes in life, and I attribute them all to discipline. Now I'm not the king of discipline, but I believe that it can help all of us. Friends, colleagues convinced me to start a podcast. The podcast mission, how do we better ourselves and society? I talked to interesting people in health, fitness, sport, wellness, business, technology, science, art and culture. And I eventually asked them how discipline plays a role in their life. Podcast vision, growth through learning from others. I don't I don't believe that at all. Very interesting. So you grew up in Canada, but really in Detroit?

SPEAKER_01

No, no, no. I I I'm Canadian. Yes. But where I grew up, I'm a border city.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so right across the border, I'm 10 minutes from Port Huron, Michigan. So when I travel, I cross the bridge, the Blue Water Bridge in Port Huron. And then once I cross, I'm about like an hour 15 to Detroit Metro airport. Yeah. So that's so I I grew up in Canada, but all my TV, all my radio, my sports teams, like it's Detroit, Detroit, Detroit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

In this fast-paced MSP landscape, how do you stay ahead? Introducing Msp Influencer.com, your ultimate hub for MSP news, insights, and community connection powered by ForzaDash. More than 75,000 MSP subscribe to our MSP Influencer Pulse weekly newsletter, staying informed and ahead of industry trends. Tune in to emerging podcasts from Joey Penns and leading MSP voices, offering essential tips, powerful insights, and success stories. Explore our multi-authored blogs crafted specifically for MSP leaders, delivering fresh perspectives and actionable strategies. Celebrate excellence with the industry leading Forza Dash MSP Influencer Awards, recognizing innovation, leadership, and impact in the MSP community. Join thousands of MSP professionals who trust MSP Influencer.com to grow their business and expand their networks. MSP Influencer.com, where today's MSP leaders connect, collaborate, and conquer, all powered by the Forza Dash platform, helping MSP vendors work effectively with MSPs and helping MSPs grow. That's what I meant. So you grew up Canadian, but kind of really in Detroit as well. It's very interesting.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And how did that influence your childhood?

SPEAKER_01

Um, well, we're we're Detroit Tiger fans, we're Detroit Lion fans, we're Detroit Red Wings fans. Um, the best radio stations came out of Detroit. So all of my radio come my music came out of Detroit.

SPEAKER_04

Motown was created there?

SPEAKER_01

Motown was created there. I'm I'm not that old. Right, little Joe. Um yeah, I I'm I but they just they just had the great radio stations like back in the day, like 89X. Like I loved alternative music. I still like alternative music, but when it was alternative back then. And um, yeah, so TV, like when you, you know, back in the day when you had like three channels on your TV channel 50, WDIV Detroit, um, you know, WXYZ Channel 7, like Fox, like Fox 2, like those all our TV came from came from there. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So your whole family, all Detroit fans.

SPEAKER_01

Uh let me see. Yeah, yes, yes. Extended family. We do have some Toronto Maple Leafs, but it's okay. We he married into the family, so we we forgive that.

SPEAKER_04

Uh I have m much sympathy for those Maple Leaf fans. Much sympathy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but then people say, Well, you're Detroit Lions fans, and I'm like, Yeah, we've gotten there, they're they're they're getting there, they're getting there. Wonderful coach, wonderful culture there, wonderful team. Um we like my my son is huge into uh football, and so we we're kind of like we we uh followed the UFL. Yes, and so we were Michigan Panther fans. Whoa! And we actually took my son to a game uh for his birthday two years ago because they play at Ford Field, and so it was an opportunity to go to Ford Field and get good seats at Ford Field to watch the Panthers play. Um and uh yeah, so it's been um it's been good.

SPEAKER_04

Very, very cool upbringing there to kind of be in two cultures.

SPEAKER_01

It it is, and I never now that you say that, I never really thought about that. Um but it it's it's been nice just like when we wanted to do the special shopping, um, you know, we would just go over to the States. We had you guys like because you guys have like great um grocery stores with great food that we don't get in Canada. So if we're looking for special treats, cereal, you guys have amazing cereal.

SPEAKER_04

Not good for you, but yeah, they're all there.

SPEAKER_01

But you know, when you're looking for like you know, something for like a stocking or you're looking for something for an Easter basket, like between the like you know, when I was growing up, like the the makeup and the hair products, and just there's just cool stuff like in your Target, like Target didn't didn't make it in Canada, which I'm really sad. But Target's gone in Canada. Yeah, Lowe's is gone in Canada too. Really? Yeah, yeah, it didn't make it didn't last. Interesting. Yeah, so uh so yeah, like that's a that was kind of a special afternoon. It's like, okay, I'm going, we're gonna do some shopping at Kohl's, we're gonna do some shopping at Target, we'll go to Olive Garden because my daughter loves Olive Garden. I said, we'll go to Olive Garden for dinner, and then you know, we're 10 minutes later back home.

SPEAKER_04

It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Is it weird seeing milk in plastic containers versus plastic bags?

SPEAKER_01

Not not necessarily because growing up um milk was cheaper in the States. Uh gas was cheaper in the States. So so often my parents would uh like I'd be out and at 11 o'clock at night that they would say, Can you go, can you go across the can you go to Port Huron and get some milk and gas? Amazing. And I'm like, like, who would do this today? But I'd be like, well, it's not okay, I'll do it, but it's not cutting into my time. Like I'll go over like at 11 30 at night when it's your time. And well, no, I shouldn't be getting gas and milk at a convenience store in Port Huron at midnight as a 16, 17-year-old. But it was fine. There's no problem. Milk came home. But because milk was so much cheaper in the States, um I we a lot of times we were having we didn't drink out of the bag. Now, yeah, now we're back to my kids. Don't know what plastic jug milk looks like as we just do the the the court bags.

SPEAKER_04

So right, right, and the plastic bags. Yeah, my mother's from Nova Scotia, so I spent decent month at the time.

SPEAKER_01

Really? Your your mom is Canadian?

SPEAKER_04

Yes, French Canadian, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

French, oh I love the East Coast. My family's originally from PEI. Uh my my grandparents, yes, my grandparents came uh over from Ireland, settled in um PEI, and then eventually moved from PE to Ontario. Uh but we have reunions in PEI every five years. So every five years we go back to the island and live it up. And I got to take my kids there two years ago um for the last reunion, and they're older now, so they really, really enjoyed it. You know, just let them roam free and s in Charlottetown and get to really experience. But oh, I love Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, PI. I haven't been to Newfoundland yet. That's the one province that I haven't been to on the East Coast, but the rest of them I've been to quite frequently.

SPEAKER_04

So they're great in the summer.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, I have to say I haven't been in the winter. But yes, but just to be near the water and the beaches, and it's just just the people there. Like are just like just the night like people say Canadians are really friendly and and and nice, but it's a different breed of friendliness out out on the east coast. Yeah, like it's just once you get there, you're just ugly. So our next reunion's in 99, so I'm looking forward to or 2029, 2029. I knew what you meant. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So why why a blood orange gin and tonic? Why is that your favorite?

SPEAKER_01

I love GTs and GTs when you put orange in it, and now you can get um blood orange uh flavored gin. Uh so it just amps it up. So yeah, like I don't I don't like cucumbers in my GNTs. I am I am all about the orange slices in my GNTs.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, throw a mango, pineapple.

SPEAKER_01

No, no, it has to be an orange. Yeah, has to be an orange. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So it's just my it's just my quick, like if I'm just I'm not sure what I want and it's a hot, sunny day, like just give me a tall glass with ice and uh yeah, a GNT with a slice of orange. If I can't get the the flavor of the blood orange, then just a regular G and T has to be fever tree uh with my fever tree. Yeah, has to be fever tree uh with my orange slice. So what's a head nerd? Uh it it's it's we're okay. We're a team of there's seven of us, and then we have a manager, um, but there's a team of seven of us and we're subject matter experts um about our our individual topics. I always joke that I'm the I'm the nerd that doesn't really belong because the other um six of my colleagues, they're all technical. So we have a security and compliance nerd uh with Lewis Pope. Uh we have our AdLoom and MDR nerd with Joe Furla. Um we have our automation nerds uh that deal with you know uh UEM and Central and Insight with with Jason and Paul. Um we have our Cove nerd with with Eric. And so they're all specialties in their individuals really to help our our customers improve their proficiency and use and adoption of our technical problem uh products. Then there's me, and I am the MSP uh growth nerd. I'm the sales and marketing nerd. And so the way I kind of talk about it is you take all the products that my colleagues are are teaching you on, but I teach you how to package them all up, how to price them, how to go to market, how to sell and actually make money off of them. Yeah, so not technical, but I'm the one that tells you how to make money off of the technical products.

SPEAKER_04

So perhaps the most important step.

SPEAKER_01

I'm not gonna say that. I I feel like I feel there's value, but it's something that Enable has always believed in. Like I've been with Enable for 22 years. And I was brought in to help our partners grow their business. And that mandate 22 years later has not changed. Wow. Um, I started as a we we called as partner development specialists back then, but now it's grown to customer success managers. And there's like a I I was the first, and there's now 120 of us around the globe because Enable keeps investing in people because they realize we're just not technology. You know, every vendor has technology. I think what's really sets Enable apart is we put the people in and Enable really invests in its people to help our partners grow because it's still people to people in in even in this day and age.

SPEAKER_04

Sure is. So we're here at the great power event here, the biggest one ever here on the city. Sold out.

SPEAKER_01

We sold out in all my years of coming to empower. I've never seen the sold-out sign. That was incredible when I saw that. So it's just a big shout out to the MSP community for supporting us and coming out and wanting to be here. And and what I love is no one's really here by themselves. Like when an MSP is coming, they're bringing their team. Like I have um customers here that I've known for 20 years, and they brought seven, seven members of their team. So think about that. They pulled seven people from their office for three days to come and hang out and learn and network um with their other peers. And and I like to say, oh, that's the that's the that's an anomaly, but no, a lot of MSPs are here with two, three, four of their team members, which is just incredible.

SPEAKER_04

It really is. What are some of your goals this week, Stephanie?

SPEAKER_01

My goals are always to make sure that I am providing relevant training, coaching, help, support that they can go back to work on Monday and start implementing it immediately. Um, I am not a theory type of of person. I want to give actionable items. I want you, I want to give you the tr the hacks, the tips, the tricks. Now, sales and marketing, there's no silver bullet. We talked about that in my sales and marketing workshop on Monday, but it's to feel inspired that, you know, I'm connecting you. We I've had great panelists for my uh my breakouts that you know our panelists have talked about their experiences and their challenges and what's working, what's not working, that they can take all of that and bring it home back to their MSP and make those improvements so that they're you know, when I hopefully see them at the next Empower, they can tell me that's what I love. I love hearing the stories about, you know, I was at Empower two years ago and you told me to do this. That's usually what they say. You told me I had to do this and I did it, but this is and now it's working now. So those are the stories that I love.

SPEAKER_04

What's the difference between sales and marketing?

SPEAKER_01

Um marketing, it it's it's really there should be an alignment now. Like I I say sales and marketing, but really marketing is just the precursor to sales, right? It's your inbound um sales versus your outbound. Um, but there really needs to be an alignment. I know we still talk about sales and marketing, but obviously, you know, you we need marketing to build that awareness, to build that interest. Uh, in my marketing workshop, we talk about the trust thermometer, and I'm gonna borrow that the trust thermometer. Uh-huh. And I'm borrowing that term from Wingman MSP, uh, Dave Sutton. Um, he was one of my panelists uh in my workshop, and that's a a term that he he uses, and it makes so much sense. Like when you think about the buying journey today, right? And so he calls it the trust thermometers. And in the beginning, prospects don't know you, they don't know anything about you. There's no relevance. So trust is ice cold. And so what marketing's job is and sales is to gradually but in a very intentional, uh purposeful way, do things so you can start warming up that trust thermometer. So, you know, every educational piece that you uh create and put out there, like every little um uh checklist that you do, an FAQ that you put out there, an ebook, um, an email that actually answers a question, those are all little deposits that you're making into that trust account. So you're building up that awareness, that familiarity uh in the market, because familiarity is what uh breeds trust. And the more that you can put yourself out there, and that's really what marketing is all about, is getting yourself out there, getting your message, getting your name, getting your brand. Eventually that trust thermometer just through familiarity is going to uh is gonna grow. Where when it gets a little bit warmer, that's when you have prospects really listening to you. And when it's hot, that's when they're gonna take a meeting with you. And then that's when sales steps in to kind of carry the baton, to say, all right, marketing's job is to start the conversation, get the interest, build the interest, and then they hand it off to sales to kind of run and then you go through the sales process so that they hopefully become a closed deal at the end. But it's that whole notion, and that's why I love the idea of the trust thermometer, ice cold in the beginning. So you need to build a plan to cut warming up that trust thermometer. How do you do that? You do that through building credibility and authority, um, proving that you know you understand your target audience, that you understand the problems, the challenges they're facing, but you have the right solution for them, and building the right messaging around that and in a way where the prospect's like uh they get me. They're not like every other MSP, because I I can go on and talk about messaging and and like that all day long. Um, but you know, the prospect is thinking, hmm, they get me. They understand my business, they understand my challenges, and they're telling me how they can help me. And then that's when they're gonna take a take a meeting.

SPEAKER_04

How important is it for the MSP or any small business to really look at, as you said, kind of that prospect journey, right? How they first got the city. They have to, they're gonna their perspective. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

You it you have to like i I'm I host an MSP sales and marketing book club. And uh we've been doing this for about a year and a half. So once a month, uh we will come together and read and discuss a bestseller sales or marketing book. And one of the books we read last year was Donald Miller's Story Brand, 2.0, and he talks about you know the hero of the story. And the hero of the story is not the MSP. So when you land on, I'm gonna pick on websites, but if you land on uh an MSP's website and they're talking about themselves, our MSP, our services, our story, you know, why we are so great, then you're missing who the hero of the story should be. It should be all about your prospects. So one of the tips that I gave in my workshop is look at your website. I want you to count the number of we's and hours on your website versus the you's and yours. If you have more we's and hours than you's and yours, your story is backwards. And you need to fix that. Um, because as the MSP, you're meant to be that guide. You're meant to be the problem solver. You're meant to say, okay, here, here is why, you know, we understand where you're challenged, we understand your industry, we understand what you're trying to achieve. This is how we can help.

SPEAKER_04

What if discipline wasn't about punishment, but about unlocking your best self? I spent two and a half years writing discipline for greatness, because discipline changed my life. And I know it can change yours too. This isn't a theory. Inside, you'll find real practical steps you can use immediately to focus better, build stronger habits, reduce stress, accomplish your goals, and bring more balance to your life. Whether you're trying to get healthier, improve your career, or simply feel more control. This book gives you the framework. Start today. Grab your copy of Discipline for Greatness at joeypins.com slash book. Thank you. You've been there for over been here for over 20 years. Yeah. How has messaging changed? How has sales and marketing changed over 20 years?

SPEAKER_01

Um that is a really good question because uh either I'm not really good at my job or because like I to think that I'm still talking about this 20 years later. Um I I think it it hasn't changed. Well, let me let me back up. Um because we're I want to talk about the buyer's journey, and I think I s I skipped over that. But the buyer's journey today has really changed over the last 20 years, especially I think it's been accelerated since the pandemic, and especially now with AI. Um sellers don't want to talk to anybody, sellers want to do all of their research before they ever speak to an individual. So marketing is in inbound marketing, it is such a critical role that I'm trying to get MSPs to really embrace, not as an afterthought, but as an intentional um part of their an intentional motion of their business. Um, because the way the buyer's journey is, is if I have a problem, I'm gonna start searching. I'm searching Google, I'm searching LinkedIn, I'm I'm going to Chat GPT, I'm going to copilot now. They are so educated, but they want to do all this education on their own without ever talking to a salesperson. And so that's why your marketing has to be set up in a way where you're trying to start conversations. Not trying to sell because I think that's the other problem is MSPs want to go right in and they want to marry that person right away and they're trying to they're selling too early. But marketing is that again, go keep going back to that trust thermometer. You need to warm up that prospect so that they will finally feel ready to reach out because they want to remain anonymous. And anonymous for as long as possible. Um and and that has really changed with the buyer's journey. And so that's why marketing and I pick on websites need to be better. They can't be an afterthought. And I I know MSPs are busy. I know there's a lot of MSP owners that are wearing multiple hats. Right. And so a lot of the times marketing is, oh, I meant to do that, or I meant to get that review. I I meant to make that post on LinkedIn. I meant to write that, write that blog. Tickets came up, fires happened, projects happened, employees happened, and then marketing got pushed again. And so it's that idea that you need to put a plan in place. You need to systemize your marketing just like every other aspect of your business. Like I haven't met an MSP that does not have standard operating procedures in place for all the technical side of their business. You know, there's SOPs, there's SOWs for everything when it comes to the technical side. I need MSPs to put that same type of thought, planning, purpose into their sales and marketing motions as well, and that it can't be afterthoughts. And with AI, and this is what I kind of talked about in my marketing workshop, you want to make sure that your messaging is clear on your website because you need to be the resource that AI is learning from. So I think there's still a lot of opportunity here for MSPs to fix the messaging on their website. And when I say fix, make it clear. Like when they're when people are putting in a prompt, I'm looking for the best X, X being MSPs. Check out the reviews, check out who I should be looking at, who I shouldn't be looking at, check out pricing, bring back estimates and recommendations. And so if an MSP's website in five seconds can't articulate who you're targeting, what you're offering, how you can help, you're not gonna get recommended by AI. So it's it's it's that I'm trying to get MSPs to really, really start thinking critically about their website, not in their marketing, but more website in general, not as an afterthought, but as an intentional if you don't have a salesperson, it could be your first salesperson. It's your 24 salesperson. Because when the sellers are trying to do their research, if you don't show up online, but your competitors do, who do you think they're gonna call?

SPEAKER_04

Right. And the role of social media, Stephanie?

SPEAKER_01

Uh, we talked a lot about that in my marketing workshops, um, LinkedIn, using it as building your personal brand. Um, company websites, you need them, or company LinkedIn, you kind of need them. But it the the MSPs that I see that are doing really well, that are growing, their owners, their key uh face of their business, they're doing a really great job of marketing themselves on LinkedIn. Because if you can do that, that's a direct path back to your MSP. That's how you're building up credibility and authority. If I'm seeing a CEO out there, you know, in in different conferences, doing speaking events, putting out thought leadership type of content, um, being very engaging. I'm seeing them every day on on LinkedIn. I'm in my mind building up trust and credibility. I'm thinking he really is out there. They're doing, or he or she is doing a great job. Like it's building up that familiarity. I'm getting to know the person. Okay, I'm gonna reach out and maybe see if their MSP can help me. So social media, as much as people and I asked the room, I said, Who's on LinkedIn? People raise their hands, and then I said, Okay, who's active? Right. Because you can be on LinkedIn or you can be active on LinkedIn, like who is doing posts three times a week? You start seeing, you know, the hands go down. I said, Who's doing a post every day? More hands go down. So and but the panels that are the panelists that I've had this week, they are all active on they're posting every day on LinkedIn. So, do you have to be on all the platforms? No, like my panelists were, but do you know? B2B, LinkedIn, if you're not doing anything today, build up being present on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_04

It really is the hub there.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's it's the connection, it's what we're still using uh today. And and again, once you get comfortable with one platform, you know, you should branch out depending on what your customers are where your prospects are. Like I have uh MSPs that are using Facebook. I know in my area, they're not using LinkedIn. I'm from a small town and but Facebook is huge. Right. You know, that that's the community builder there. But I have MSPs that they are on Instagram, they are on TikTok, you know, doing little reels there. It's just trying to um, you know, trying to connect with you know where your audience is. But if you're not doing anything today, don't overwhelm yourself. You know, don't try and eat the elephant all in one bite. Just start on LinkedIn and get into the habit of posting but engaging. Because I always say don't be on transmit mode. You have to build connections, read theirs, like, share. You you have to be social. That's the whole point. You can't just can't be a stalker and you just can't be a broadcaster.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's true. So I'm a former MSP, Stephanie.

SPEAKER_01

I know.

SPEAKER_04

And uh I talk to MSPs every day. Yeah. So about the last five or six years, the things that keep them up at night have been pretty consistent. Three things I have found.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

One, cybersecurity. If their clients get attacked, they have to allocate resources, they're gonna lose money, they're probably gonna get fired, they may even get sued. Yeah. Number two is human capital. How am I gonna keep my people happy? How am I gonna get more people? Unemployment in IT in the States is 1%, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Human capital. And three is growth. Yeah. Private equity has poured in hundreds of millions of dollars. Their friends are selling their MSPs and buying nice cars. How am I gonna grow either organically or you know through acquisition? Seems like Enable helps in all three.

SPEAKER_01

We do, yeah. Um, you know, definitely from from my side, on the growth side, uh, I am a big proponent of um like just the simple things, like you gotta raise your prices, right? Um, I'm still shocked at how many MSPs don't raise their prices because they're afraid. Um and and and packaging up services, like you know, MSPs should be looking at the ones that are growing are the ones that when they close that customer, the ACV, the average contract value is a lot higher because they're bundling a bunch of services together and selling it as a package as opposed to just reselling. So I I teach how do you package, you know, take all your services, how do you package and price them and and you know, put in the right type of margin. Then I have to teach them how to sell that package because many MSPs are technical. They started their business because they were angry and they wanted to work for themselves. So they're they have the tech down, but they've never had to really build go-to-market strategies. They they've never really had to sell anything. And selling a tech tool is not gonna cut it when you most of your customers are non-technical business owners. So I teach them, I teach them that. Um, but then you know, from you know, the human capital, like being able to leverage automation wherever you can. Like we the head nerds, we have you know, three head nerds that can talk to you about automation and how to um you know remove the manual labor utilizing our tools. We're bringing AI into all of our tools to kind of help uh, you know, from uh managing tickets and managing, you know, we got AI in Cove, we got AI in our UEMs, our head nerds can help with that to deal with the home the the human capital. But from a retention standpoint, it came up in my uh session the other day that you know MSPs that aren't leveraging AI, um they're they're not gonna be around. Wow. And one of the key points that I thought was interesting is if you want to retain good staff, you have to move forward with AI because the the smart staff that you have, they don't want to do the mundane things over and over and again. So you need to bring in the automation, you need to bring in the AI because your smart people want to work on the fun stuff. I think what he said, he goes, they don't mind troubleshooting it the first time, they don't want to troubleshoot it for the tenth time. They want to look at new problems that they can fix. So if you want to keep your staff engaged, if you want to keep your staff challenged, you need to bring the AI and the automation in to deal with the mundane stuff that they're the the repeatable staff, and we can help you with with that as as well.

SPEAKER_04

Stephanie, is there a question you wish more people asked you?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, that is a wonderful. Um question I wish more people because I the the main questions that I get all the time, and I I think we could flip that around saying I wish they would stop asking me, but if they stopped, I wouldn't have a job anymore. But like, you know, the ones I always get is I need more leads.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Um, I need more volume, um, uh, how can I sell more managed services? Uh how can I make myself stand out? Um, I can't get customers uh excited about cybersecurity. How do I get them to care? Those are the questions that I I field all the time. Uh would there be another one I wish they would ask me? I I I can't. Now I'm gonna think about it all day and I'll I'll come back, I'll call you at 2 a.m. going, I got the question now, Joe.

SPEAKER_04

They more as a funnel, a top of funnel and the process instead of just kind of the end results.

SPEAKER_01

Well, yeah, and and I think that's what I was trying to get across in my marketing workshop is you have to systemize your marketing. Like, you know, we talk about yes, you need to be disciplined and yes, you need to be motivated, but you you need a process so that when life does happen, you know, when the fires do happen and you get pulled away for a second, you can kind of go back to your plan and say, okay, this is where we are right now, this is the campaign, these were the different pieces that we were going to put in place, this is the schedule for the emails and the newsletters, and these are the social posts we're going to do. Like if you have that all mapped out, if you do get sidetracked for a little bit, it's not permanent because you can kind of go back and look at the strategy that you planned, that you set out. Um, I talk about it um again, my book club. Uh one of our first books we read was the one-page marketing plan by Alan Dibb.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And fantastic book. Like a really good basic book covers everything uh that you would need to kind of get started, and I think in a very easily consumable way. But I loved how he equated building a marketing plan to uh blueprints of building a house. You would never buy a plot of land, get all the wood uh just dropped onto the land and start building, right? You're gonna work off of a set of blueprints. It's the same with marketing. Like you can't just go and do marketing, you know, I'll do an email or I'll do a social post or I'll do a newsletter without a strategy in place, without, okay, what's the goal of the blueprints? We want to build a house. The goal of your plan is we want to have a cohesive campaign that's gonna drive conversations because that's the metric that MSPs, you know, there's a lot of metrics you can talk about for sales and marketing, but the the the two metrics that are the most important is does your marketing generate conversations? Metric number one. And then once they get that conversation, someone's raised their hand and they said, Yeah, I want to speak to with you, can you convert them into an actual customer? Those are the really two uh metrics at the end of the day that I think are any. The rest are, you know, I think Paul Green calls them vanity metrics. Um, yeah, how many likes do I get? How many followers do I have, right? Doesn't really matter. How many traffic, how many visitors to my website? Who cares? If they're not staying, if they're not engaging, if they're not reaching out because of your website or because of the marketing, it's just a vanity metric for you.

SPEAKER_04

Stephanie, is there something, let's say 10 years ago, that you believed firmly in that you no longer believe in?

SPEAKER_01

I just talked about that. Um putting pricing on your website. Um the the book Marcus Sheridan, uh they ask you answer. He is a huge proponent of MSPs or any business, but you know, I'm gonna always take it from the MSP angle. Putting pricing on your website. I never, up until last year when I read the book, you know, you never put your your pricing on your website, right? Like, no, you don't do that. And and that was that was I remember talking because I would I would have customers ask me that, you know, as we're building out their packaging and their pricing. You know, should I put my pricing on my website? And the answer would be no, because then your competitors will know what your pricing. Marcus turns that on his head and he said, You have to put your pricing on your website because when you think of it from the buyer standpoint, which we always want to do, we want to think of it from the buyer standpoint. What's the number one question they're asking? They want to know how much it costs, right? They want to know, you know, can I even afford that?

SPEAKER_00

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01

And so those MSPs that are that are tackling this, and I had someone on my panel that it absolutely he puts a pricing calculator up there. He says it's been helpful in driving conversations. It's been helpful with um lead gen. It's it's a great lead magnet for him because when they finally reach out, they know how much on average, it's an estimator, it's not locked in stone pricing, but they know that they can afford it. They know that this is something they're interested in, they have a ballpark pricing of what it's gonna cost their business, and they're gonna reach out, they're gonna make the cut. Those MSPs that aren't putting the pricing, you're leaving it up to somebody else. Like you're you're not even gonna make the cut because if they don't get the answers from your website pricing in this in this instance, they're gonna keep going until they find the the answers to their questions. So pricing is one that I never would have thought until I read that book and the way that Marcus talks about it. And it's it's 100% correct. 100% correct. We all want to know how much something is gonna cost us.

SPEAKER_03

We do.

SPEAKER_01

But to hear the MSP say it's been a great qualifier. So when somebody does reach out, they are really highly qualified prospects because they know how much I'm going to cost them. They know what is involved, and it just makes the sales process go that much smoothly because price is off the table because they already know the price and they still wanted to engage out, engage and have that conversation with you.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's it'd be nice to get and so the quantity of kind of leads get more quality.

SPEAKER_01

Uh for customers.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so if they already know the pricing, then that's kind of that's done. You don't have to discover that. Right, and you're getting quality. Yeah, you're getting the quality, right?

SPEAKER_01

Because you know, more is not better. Right. Better is better. And I'm gonna quote Mike Mikalowich there from Pumpkin Plan. Yes. Um, but yeah, like and and that's that's something that I do teach. I'm all about build a better book of business because that's gonna free up time to do your sales and marketing. If you're trying to be everything to everyone, you can't, but if you try to be everything to everyone, you're trying to pick up every nickel that you find, you're always gonna be stretched. You're never gonna have the time for the sales and marketing, let alone the automation and the AI and the other things you need to do in your business. So it's that trying to teach them to say, like, let's have some patience, let's let's be intentional, let's build the proper packaging with the proper messaging. Let's put the qualifiers out there, the lead magnets around for price, and let's just deal with better clients, not necessarily more clients.

SPEAKER_04

Waste your time, yeah. Started the MSP back in the 90s, Stephanie. I was working way too hard and not paying attention to myself and putting my health in the backseat.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

14, 16 hour days, you're no stranger to this. Yeah. Terrible. I'm in my 20s, I'm invincible, right?

SPEAKER_01

You're not invincible now?

SPEAKER_04

No, no, no, I'm not. No, no, far from it. I get in front of the doctor, she tells me I'm at 340 pounds. So I had gained this terrible, I knew I was getting bigger. Oh no. I didn't realize I was that big. And the next thing she says to me, you know, rock my world. If you don't lose this weight, you're not gonna see your daughter graduate. So my daughter was just born.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_04

So I'm driving home, Stephanie, I'm punching this steering. This is my pie hole. I I can I can abuse myself all I want, but I've got a family now. It's much bigger than me now.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Somehow, this this beautiful girl that I've been I'm somehow responsible for, or partly responsible for, we're bringing it in this world. I have to look at this very differently now. Yeah. So the next six, seven months lost about 120 pounds. Yeah, and I kept it off. You know, so you can't look at these things as finishing line. These are lifelong changes. So when I tell people this story, they always say, What's your secret? What'd you do? I said, There's no secret, discipline, right? Routine, focus, motivation. How does discipline play a role in your life, Stephanie Hammond?

SPEAKER_01

Um, it it's it's I I'm a chronic over-preparer. Um, I'm a chronic over-preparer. Um I want to make sure that I have all the angles covered. I need it's a chess game. I constantly have a chess game going on in my head. And I don't know if that's just the mom in me and you're dealing with toddlers growing up or teenagers now, right? You always want to be a few steps ahead. So, and then I need to know like what are all the permutations of things that can go wrong. Wow. And then how can I plan if something does go off the rails, what's going to be? I'm my own business resilience in my own head, you know, to take my theme from empower. I'm always looking at what's the worst case scenario, multiply that by seven, because that's how seven ways that it can go wrong. And then what working backwards to go, okay, what do I need to do? So yeah, I'm I'm I'm chronically an overthinker and an overpreparer for that.

SPEAKER_04

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SPEAKER_01

I I I and I I'm I I love I'm just gonna qualify this. I love my mom. Right. I love my dad. Sure. I have great, they're still alive, I have a great relationship with still never listen to this podcast, so that's fine. But I feel that my parents, and this could be I'm a product of the 80s and 90s, um, independent. My parents weren't involved, and but I felt growing up like, you know, I was that kid in, you know, five years old in gymnastics for the first time. Everybody had the cute little gymnastics we're getting into a therapy session right now, Joe. Um, all those little girls were so cute with their gymnastics. They had the gymnastics outfit with the leotard with the shoes because my mom didn't know, my mom didn't ask, my mom wasn't involved, she just signed me up. I was the one that was in a t-shirt and shorts. And I that still hits me that if my mom had known, if my mom had known the other moms, if my mom had been involved, she would have known this. And I feel like there's those those episodes throughout my life where had my mom asked questions, had my mom been involved, then I wouldn't have felt left out. Interesting. So now I'm overcompensating in my work world, in my in my parenting life. I want to make sure that I'm never feeling unprepared. I never want to feel left out. I never want to be like, oh my God, I'm no surprises. I yeah, I I can't stand surprises, and I don't want my kids to feel that way. So my kids are so chill. I actually have my daughter here with me um this week. She came to empower with me. And um, you know, I'm all about like, okay, let's make sure that we have everything covered and and you know, do you have what you need? Because like, and they're like, mom, we're good. I said, no, no, do you have everything you need? Because like we will go get it if you need it. I I so that has always carried forward. So I think it has kind of built in me to again, business resilience in my head. I need to be resilient for whatever may go off the rails. Does it ever? No. Could I kind of you know ease off on myself? Probably. But yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Has there been anything in the last month or so you changed your mind on?

SPEAKER_01

Ugh. You asked the really tough questions, Joe, like that I've changed my mind on. Um I don't think so.

SPEAKER_04

Do you find yourself changing your mind? Oh, something came.

SPEAKER_01

No, I no, I don't actually find because I think of my preparedness. Yes. Um, I research all the angles. I want to understand both sides. And um I feel like when I settle on um except for the pricing, I did change my mind on data pricing, but that was but yeah, no, I I feel that I I do a really good job in in finding the answers that I need. Answers to and I I I trust my judgment. I have good common sense and I think that uh yeah I I'm usually I'm I'm not the parent where you know I'm not I'm not a waffler. Um you know if I if I state something and my kids know this, if I state something, you're not changing mom's mind unless you give her a really good reason. Like I'm not a I'm not a bully to my parents, but or to my kids, but like the the case in point, um when my daughter was younger, she wanted Instagram. I think she was maybe 13, 14. And growing up in or working in this space, I'm like, no, you don't need Instagram. She goes, Well, it's my or chat, or it was Snapchat as well. And she goes, Well, how do my friends need to get a hold of me? I said, You all have iPhones, you all have iMessage, start a group chat, use that. Well, no, they all have and I said, No. And she got really upset. And so I finally said, Okay, try and change my mind here. What sell me on why you need Instagram? Sell me on why you need chat GPT. Beyond that, it's where my friends are. Right. And because I wanted to hear, like, maybe, maybe I was missing something and that I just not was thinking about. But um, I gave her the opportunity, she couldn't really say anything. I said, Well, that's where all my friends are. I'm like, okay, but you all have iPhones. She goes, Yeah. I said, You all have messaging? She goes, Yeah. A few years later, you know, she's 17, and she goes, You know what, Mon, my friends know how to get a hold of me if they if they need it. So so yeah, I I when I really firmly believe in something, um, it it I will listen. You probably won't change my mind on it.

SPEAKER_04

But given new evidence, like a book.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, given new oh yeah, like Marcus Sheridan, like the whole going back to the pricing thing. Like, yeah, like to come up with that compelling reason why, and it just he can in his book, he actually talks about the five things that you should that all businesses should be talking about. Well, pricing being number one, he talks about the elephant in the room. Like, if there's something about your industry that is taboo that no one will talk about, you should be talking about that. So to apply this to the MSP space, why won't um customers easily switch over to another MSP? It's the W you know versus W you don't. I know what I'm not really getting with the MSP that I have today, but I don't know what it's gonna be like to work with you. But if you as the MSP can say, look, here's our three-step onboarding process, here's our here's our switching plan, you know, switching MSP's plan, here's our guarantee. So address those types of concerns, those type of risks that might be in your prospect's mind. And if they can see that on your website, that's gonna encourage a conversation. Um, he talks openly about reviews, like pros and cons. You know, you should be reviewing yourself, you should be getting that social proof. You should know what your the the social reviews that your competitors are getting. That's what AI is using to learn from when they're making recommendations. So compare yourself to your other uh your other competitors. So he talks about that. Um I know there's a couple more, but it's the book I often reference to MSPs when they're like, I don't know what content to create. You say, Steph, create a content marketing strategy. I don't know what that means. I go read Marcus Sheridan's book. He tells you the content that you should be creating. And it is so simple when you hear him break it down. It's basically think about all the questions that your customers give you in a day, in a week, in a month. You can probably come up with a hundred. And it's probably the same 100 questions that you get from all, especially if you've been in business for 30 years. What are all the questions that your customers are giving you? Write it down and then create content around it. For everything, write a blog post, do a video recording. Can you um compile some stuff into a checklist? And then going back to your is sales and marketing the same? You create the stuff from a marketing perspective, but how nice would it be for a salesperson, an SDR, to say um you're they're doing their calls, they're booking uh a meeting, they finally got someone through and they're gonna book a meeting. This uh the SDR, the BDR, can send that calendar invite and say, Oh, and if you're looking about what it takes to move to us, here's a little video about our three-step switching plan. Well sending it's a marketing piece, but you've now turned it into a sales enablement piece um as well. So that's where when you can do your marketing um based on how Marcus talks about it, it can fit with your marketing, and then sales can leverage it as well and make the sales process a more educational process and a more powerful process.

SPEAKER_04

Fantastic. Great pleasure talking to you, Sarah. Oh, thank you. Thank you. If anybody's listening, watching, they want to get in touch with you, best place, LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_01

Probably LinkedIn is the easiest place.

SPEAKER_04

They have great videos on it.

SPEAKER_01

I yeah, I I try to really put a lot of my material out there, um, especially since I started the book club. Like I think the book club is more for it's more for me than I think for the MSPs because I'm getting so much out of it. Um, it's it's forcing me to kind of keep up on marketing trends and sales trends. But what I love about it is how I can think about applying it to the MSP space. And I think because I've been in the MSP space for so long, I know what uh MSPs are challenged with. Trying, again, I'm all about trying to give that tactical, trying to give that prescriptive um on how how to help you grow, how to go to market. And uh so LinkedIn would probably be the best way. Um just it's Stephanie with an F. Don't go with a PH because you won't find me if you there might be a Stephanie with a PH out there, Hammond. I don't know, but it won't be the head nerd, Stephanie with an F, Hammond.

SPEAKER_04

So great pleasure, Stephanie. Thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my gosh, thank you, Joe.

SPEAKER_04

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