009 - What I Would Have Done Differently in My Family Law Case

In today's episode, I talk with a former client about what he would have done differently in his family law case knowing what he knows now.

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Transcript

Lani Akiona:

 Let me do my countdown. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Hi, there. Welcome to another episode of the Akiona law podcast. We're in, we talk about all things that intersect within the areas of family law and divorce. I am Lani Akiona and today I'm very excited to introduce to you someone that I've known for a long time. I'm so happy he's honoring the show. And he is a former client of mine. It is Jason. Jason, welcome to the Akiona law podcast and without getting into too much formal details about your case, just touching briefly upon it, you and I work together. I represented you in a family law and divorce case. I want to say what about, like 15 years ago? Maybe 10 years ago.

Jason:

Yeah. Something like that.

Lani Akiona:

Back maybe around 209, 2010, 2011. So anyway, thank you for coming out to the show and joining us here today to talk about family law and divorce. And what I wanted to touch upon was that when we work with someone we're in their lives for just brief period of time, maybe a year, two years at the most, but I always wonder looking back 10 years, 15 years, having that lens of perspective, is there anything that you would have have done differently now that you know, what you know now. Does that make sense?

Jason:

I think it does. And it's such a great question. I mean, don't get me wrong. There are plenty of folks who go through divorce repeatedly. I mean, that's a thing, but for so many folks they don't. They go through divorce one time. And so for me looking back, if I had it all to do over again, if I could call myself in the past and give some advice, knowing what I know now-

Lani Akiona:

Like back to the future movie.

Jason:

Yes. Hollywood needs to do this. My advice would be to really get focused on expectations. I really think you helped me understand what the system could do and what the system is really good at. It's exceptionally great at dividing up property. It's exceptionally great at figuring out who's going to be the custodial parent, who the kids are going to live with most of the time. It's really great at setting visitation schedules and the kids are going to be with who on which holiday and that kind of thing. But that being said I had work that I needed to do myself. I had work that I needed to do personally learning how to get along cordially with my ex. I mean, get real. Nobody gets a divorce because they like each other, because they're getting along swimmingly. That's not a thing. And so back in the day I had work to do, and I didn't even know it. I didn't realize it.

Lani Akiona:

Wow. That's powerful Jason.

Jason:

Well, I mean you're right. It's been over a decade. I've had a lot of time to think about this and you know what? A divorce and a custody order, it may answer some of those questions that I popped off with a second ago, but those things don't help when you're handing off the kids or picking them up again. They don't help when you're dealing with something unexpected, a death in the family or something like that. And so I think it's realistic to expect some things of the system. But we all need to deal with our own stuff, if that makes sense.

Lani Akiona:

Yeah, that does make sense. And the thing to understand too, is that no one makes a decision to usually divorce overnight. Usually it's not like you just wake up one morning and say, I want to be divorced.

Jason:

Yeah, true.

Lani Akiona:

People have been unhappy in a relationship for several years. Maybe like three, maybe even five years, where they're just sticking it out for the kids towards the end. But I always feel like, and maybe this is so out there. I almost wished there would be some sort of mandatory counseling and not the parenting seminar, but just in terms of working out your stuff. So you don't have that resentment towards the other party that can sometimes, and I'm not saying even intentionally, but sometimes it translates into that custody over the kids.

Jason:

I think that's spot on. For my relationship with the ex, I think it's fair to say that we'd gotten to a point where we each had things about the relationship that made us very unhappy. I think that's fair. I think that's a fair assessment. We each had those things, but it's so easy to simply take that fight and then just keep fighting it in the new arena, in the new circumstance.

Lani Akiona:

Of course.

Jason:

And maybe it's court, maybe it's everything that comes after, but it's so easy to just keep holding those weapons that you've had for so long. It's easy. It's habitual, I guess. And so-

Lani Akiona:

That could be [inaudible 00:25:01] habitual.

Jason:

Right. And so my ex and I have been divorced a real long time at this point. We've had to find other ways of getting along, other ways of interacting. Our kids were fairly young when we separated, fairly young when our divorce was final. We had to learn how are we going to get along with each other when we continue to have these interactions?

Lani Akiona:

And how did you do that? Did you seek outside help? Did you read books or is it just a lesson of just maturity and being like, I don't want to engage in this negative dialogue anymore, more like a conscious decision.

Jason:

Oh my gosh. You are giving both of us so much more credit than either of us deserve. Holy cow. To my ex's credit, she may have done all of those things you just mentioned. She-

Lani Akiona:

Oh, okay, wow.

Jason:

-might. My clown self, I just tried to muddle through it and it started with really awkward, small talk. Hey, how is the weather on your drive? Oh, that's so good to hear. I'm glad because I was worried. It starts with small talk like that.

Lani Akiona:

That's called the adult polite civil conversation.

Jason:

Yeah. And then it turns to something a bit more engaging. Holy cow. Have you been following any of this stuff with the election? Oh, okay. Me too. Did you see this other, what do you think? Oh, I haven't read that. Okay. I'm going to check that out. That's interesting.

Lani Akiona:

Hey, but this and that only work if you choose to share the same political beliefs, because if you were opposing sides, that could be a blow up.

Jason:

Okay. Fair point.

Lani Akiona:

Great.

Jason:

I think that's a super fair point. We started small. The smallest of small talk and then ventured out from there. Her, the guy that she had a relationship with after we divorced, he went to the same school I did. And so he and I would make small talk about what the football team had done the last week. Hey, did you catch the game? Oh, that was really rad. Yeah, I saw that. We started having conversations like that and it-

Lani Akiona:

[inaudible 00:27:30].

Jason:

-literally felt like looking for opportunities to be civil. It felt like that. Looking for the smallest thing that we had in common-

Lani Akiona:

Wow.

Jason:

-that was not something to fight about custody, property, support. And again, to her credit and his credit, I could see them trying and that made it easy for me to try.

Lani Akiona:

Yeah. That's a huge takeaway. It's about trying to move forward and do better. And even like you said, even if it's just small talks such as, how was your drive here? Because that was one of the issues too, was that there was that move, that relocation that had to be navigated as well after the divorce. And that opened up another area of conflict as well, because it's always dealing with a big thing when people are moving or things like that.

Jason:

Yeah. And I don't want to give anybody the misimpression that somehow my ex and I became besties. It just didn't like that. We are still not friends. We don't chat. We don't do those kinds of things that friends would do, but-

Lani Akiona:

You don't text [inaudible 00:28:59] a happy birthday.

Jason:

No, but I will say this, over the years, each of our kids have mentioned from time to time that they do appreciate the fact that she and I are generally cordial to each other now. That generally we can get together at some sort of school event or a significant family event or something like that. And folks can smile and say, hi, hey, how you doing? Are you still living in such and such? Oh, that's great. We can do those kinds of adult, small talk kinds of topics. The kids mention that it takes a bunch of pressure off of them.

Jason:

And I guess that draws my thoughts back to what we talked about at the beginning of the segment. If I could give advice to myself back in the day, hey man, you might want to loosen your grip on all of the ways you've mastered, fighting with the ex, because at some point you're not married anymore. And really it's just focused on what the kids are doing. Do you need that weapon now? Really? I don't know that I did. I think I could have put down some of the fighting sooner.

Lani Akiona:

That's really powerful to think about putting down the fighting against the ex and then focus on the kids because I think what a lot of people have a hard time about out, and then I've got kids, my boys are 14 and 16 now. They were probably babies, when I knew you back then. They're probably like five and six or something. But it's hard not to think about, well, I'm not funny with my ex. I am focused on the kids because I'm trying to focus on what's in their best interests, but sometimes it doesn't. You're so entrenched within maybe the conflict with your ex spouse, you lose that side, that perspective that you now have. Is that fair to say?

Jason:

I think that's right on the money. And I think for me at least it was easy to reach back in time at some fight she and I have had way back in the day about something completely unrelated and then make the logical leap that somehow her motives right now in the moment were tied to something that had happened years before. Oh, holy cow. That's an easy way to cast doubt on the situation at hand, instead of coming at it with a fresh viewpoint, fresh eyes, listening, hey, I think this is what's going on. Oh, okay, maybe that is going on. It's so easy to look at the present day through the lens of the past. It's easy. It's easy for all of us, not just in this context, but any context really, but I do think at some point it becomes a barrier to moving on.

Lani Akiona:

What becomes a barrier to moving on? Keep on looking at the past or?

Jason:

Yeah.

Lani Akiona:

Okay.

Jason:

I'm sorry. I think our continued focus on the past, sometimes that becomes a barrier to understanding how the future is different and moving on to something that doesn't look like conflict if all you're doing is focused on the past fights.

Lani Akiona:

I get it. I think the hard part is how do people move forward? How do they get past that? Just time.

Jason:

Yeah. And distance, sometimes that's physical distance. But sometimes it's a different kind of distance. You create a life for yourself after the divorce. How does it look the same? How does it look different? You create a life with your kids that's a little different from the way it looked prior. They're going to do the same with your ex and that's all okay. Some of the things will be the same and some things just won't. That's okay too.

Lani Akiona:

The new normal.

Jason:

Not just about pandemics kids.

Lani Akiona:

I guess looking back now, I guess one thing we had mentioned, or we had talked about four was, what does a reasonable expectation look like going into a divorce, because it's not as if you and your ex started off agreeing to custody.

Jason:

I think it's perfectly reasonable to come at it thinking, you're just not going to get everything that you want. If you come at it with that high expectation, there's a real good chance that you're going to be disappointed about something. I really appreciated when you were working with me back in the day. I really appreciated your ability to give me some insight into what was probably reasonable and what probably wasn't, because I had some expectations that weren't.

Jason:

And you were like, nah, hey Jason I hear what you're saying. I just need you to know what the court's probably going to say. And sometimes that was hard to hear, but Lani, I needed to hear it. And it was so much nicer hearing it from you than hearing it from the judge, just saying. And especially in my circumstance, we ended up going through mediation, which was great. I think you really helped temper my expectations in a way that once we got into mediation, I had a really solid understanding of how that was going to go. I don't know. I just fell right off the thought train. Sorry.

Lani Akiona:

That happens. Quick question. Was mediation mandatory back in the day?

Jason:

Yeah. Court ordered mediation and arbitration. We mediated part of it and arbitration for the other part.

Lani Akiona:

Okay. Because there's a period of time and I can't remember if it's before I worked with you when mediation wasn't mandatory and then they switched the court rules when mediation became mandatory, which is fantastic. Because so many cases are being able to get resolved because you're moving people away from that. I've got to fight. I've got to go out where we've got to slow down and read some sort of compromise. We're spending thousands and thousands of dollars instead of our kids on trial.

Jason:

I actually thought the mediation arbitration bit. I actually think it helped the ex and I move faster to some sort of resolution than we would've had otherwise, because just like you said, it's not as confrontational.

Lani Akiona:

Oh mediation. Oh gosh. Well sometimes people think it's confrontational, then we have to like, no, the mediator doesn't get to decide. It's about working together, problem solving.

Jason:

And the way I remember it going, the mediator at one point came into the room and was like, Hey Jason, she raised these concerns. They seem valid to me. From my perspective as a mediator this is where I think there's some room to compromise. What do you think about these options? And when the mediator framed it like that, I remember thinking, yeah, she's right about that. She's onto something. And as soon as that clicked in my head, I recall my response back to you being yeah, that seems legit to me. What do you think? And you were like, yeah, totally. It helped. The mediator helped us get to that midpoint in a way that I don't know, we would have just left to our own bickering.

Lani Akiona:

Left to your own bickering. But that's what a good mediator does too. It helps you move past that. I guess in a short very simple sense. And it helps you move past that bickering and position things in their searching way. And sometimes it's helpful even as attorneys because mediators can think of things that maybe we didn't see because as attorneys, sometimes our perspective does get intertwined with the clients and we try to be reasonable and try to be objective. But at the same time, we're there to advocate for our client. So that's what I find valuable for the mediation process.

Jason:

Yeah. I agree.

Lani Akiona:

Yeah. And so in terms of going back to reasonable expectations, looking back now, what would you tell yourself in terms of these are the expectations you can expect out of the system as a whole, because sounds as if a magic wand and just everything just,

Jason:

I think I would go back and tell myself, yo, this is going to be a lot more complicated than you think. There's going to be stuff come up that you didn't think was going to be a thing. And it's so going to be a thing. There were parts of the system that caught me off guard, the level of detail of documents and stuff that I had to produce. And I guess I'm being obtuse. I'm really talking about things like tax returns and bank statements and the sheer volume of stuff that I had to get together. I thought I was a pretty responsible grownup keeping records. The whole process made me question that. Maybe I should have a better filing system. And so I think that's an expectation that I simply didn't have. The amount of time it took me to get together, all the stuff that was needed. And oh my gosh.

Lani Akiona:

And you got to get that stuff to me so I represented your case.

Jason:

Yes. And I mean, all the requests were legit, please don't think I'm saying that the requests weren't. It's just holy cow. I wasn't ready. I just wasn't ready for all of the questions that were going to come next. Can you give me this list of stuff by Friday? Yes. Maybe, let me call into work. Let me tell my boss I'm going to be out tomorrow. Getting all that stuff together, it was a challenge for me.

Lani Akiona:

I think we must have done interrogatories in your case. That's what it was. Just a ton of stuff to get together.

Jason:

Yes. And that was a whole another pile of things. So not only was I doing it, my ex was doing it too. And then we were sharing information and we had been separated for a long time. It was a bit of a shock that each of us had made that bit of progress moving on with our life. And yet now, we had to do the sharing of all the things we had been doing since we separated. And so, I mean, I understood why it needed to be provided, but still there was part of me that was mildly offended, that all of a sudden I had to be sharing all of this detail with her, even though we've been separated for so long.

Jason:

At that point divorced actually for a good while. You know what's interesting, tying it back to expectations, I guess the system's going to be very efficient at sorting out property and figuring out incomes for the calculation of support and things like that, child support. I don't think any of that happened all that fast. And each of us, both the ex and I had to do a bunch of work to get together all of the information that the court needed. It was just a lot of stuff. I hear of people doing this kind of thing on their own without counsel. And I'm like, really, do you not have a day job? Do you not have other stuff going on?

Lani Akiona:

Yeah. It's kind of hard to do this and if you have a day job, because it is. It's a lot of things to keep track of.

Jason:

So much stuff. Your office was really great in helping me figure out what I still needed to do.

Lani Akiona:

And Jason, you're a pretty smart guy. You've got a master's, then you've got your PhD.

Jason:

Again, gang, I wasn't ready. I did not fully understand all the stuff I was going to need to do. And I guess one of my big takeaways was playing off something you said earlier that frequently divorce is not an overnight decision, is something people are thinking about for a long time. I think for some folks, when they finally get to that point where they pull the trigger, okay. I'm filing. I want a divorce like now. I think some people, once they get to that point, because they've reached it in their own thinking, they think it's going to be quick.

Lani Akiona:

True.

Jason:

No. In their mind it needs to be done tomorrow because they've been chewing on the problem for months, maybe years. And I think if I could talk to myself back in the day, if I could do the back to the future move, I would lower my expectations about the speed of it. It may take a while. I don't recall exactly how long my bit went, I think over a year, start to finish.

Lani Akiona:

Oh, it was for sure over a year.

Jason:

That was my thought, 18 months maybe. I don't remember. It was a long time.

Lani Akiona:

Well, and then plus too I felt like when we did the second case, which is the relocation, I felt like that took longer than the divorce.

Jason:

In some ways I think that's true.

Lani Akiona:

Maybe the [inaudible 00:45:32]. We just think of the two, we get them melded in, meshed in.

Jason:

Well, yeah, I think there was a little bit of time in between all the stuff about child support. That was the first bit, and then the second was the relocation and it just felt like there was only a gap of a month or two in between the first one getting resolved. And then the second one happening. It was something like that.

Lani Akiona:

Okay.

Jason:

I don't know. Honestly, it was so long ago. My memory is not what it used to be.

Lani Akiona:

No, it was almost 10 years ago if I'm looking at my files correctly, but I mean, it's good though.

Jason:

Well, and hey, maybe my inability to be real clear about what happened and when, hey, maybe that's just evidence of how far the ex and I have moved on. She's moved on, she's doing great. I've moved on. I'm pretty happy. The kids are doing great.

Lani Akiona:

The kids are doing great and more important that's all what it's about. The kids are doing great. This is something really interest... This is something that I think about all the time. Looking back now, how would you have done custody differently with your ex in terms of that whole piece?

Jason:

Wow. I don't know. I'm not sure about that. By the time I called your office, the kids had been living with me for quite a while. And the ex and I lived in different cities. I was in Eastern Washington state, nearly in Idaho. She was living in a suburb of Seattle. I think there are options available to parents living in the same city that simply weren't options for us. And here I'm thinking about things like changes to the visitation schedule and who's picking the kids up after school and that kind of thing. I think those would've been options on the table for us if we lived in the same town.

Lani Akiona:

Oh, okay. That makes sense.

Jason:

Well, I'm thinking about my friends, I know who when they divorced, it's not like they were moving out of town or across state lines or something. They were literally just relocating in the same town, in the same city. And so the kids don't change schools. None of that happens. I think there are some options there that we just didn't have. We ended up literally driving halfway across the state to do the handoff with the kids. Every other weekend we were meeting in Vantage, which hey, you out there who are not familiar, Vantage is a very tiny town on a precipice next to the beautiful Columbia river. It is lovely. And there used to be a really great hamburger joint there for those of you who like those kinds of things. But that being said, our handoff looked different because of that. Each of us were in the car for like four or five hours as we did this number.

Lani Akiona:

Well, I mean, that's a good question. You folks lived a significant distance apart. Now, looking back now, was that fair or did that work in sharing this drive, meeting at this halfway point between your two residents to exchange the kids?

Jason:

Answering the fair question is really hard. It's difficult. I was driving a little bit farther than she was, but in terms of drive time, it was equivalent. The alternatives for us, would've been something akin to putting two little kids on a plane. I'm not sure how many folks have checked into that unaccompanied minor fair charge that racks up quickly, especially if you got two kids and you're paying that each way. And so I think she and I came up with a solution that made sense for us at the time in spite of how many times each of us played the lottery and neither of us was independently wealthy. That wasn't a thing. And so I think we did the best of it.

Jason:

Honestly, I struggled to think of what other options might have been out there. I was where I was because of a job. She moved because of job and relationship. I think that's all fair. So as folks are picking and choosing where they're working and where they're living, at some point, if you do want that relationship with the kids, you got to find some sort of compromise. I will say this, I did upgrade the stereo in my truck to that satellite radio, that SiriusXM. That was worth it. Driving across the state a couple of times every other week. Hey, that satellite radio subscription was worth every penny.

Lani Akiona:

And you know now they got podcasts. So you can listen to [inaudible 00:51:51] podcast.

Jason:

Okay. And you know the unlimited data plan that I'm on now, I can totally stream podcast. I'm just saying. I don't know your custody question is a hard one. The court's going to look at best interests of the child. And I think a lot of parents stroll into that thinking the kids, living with them is in the kid's best interest. The court's going to have to make choices and sometimes the court's going to come back and say things that folks don't want to hear. And that's hard. That's a hard thing. The idea that now you visit your kids or your kids visit you, that's a hard one. And I think that gets back to your funny line earlier about the new normal. It wasn't easy at first, but over time you do get into a rhythm and you get into a mode where you can build a new future. You build a new life, with you and your kids. Now I'm just rambling. Sorry.

Lani Akiona:

I think that's all good, important stuff. And sometimes when you first start about it, you're just so focused on the past. It's hard to see down the future, see a year or two years down the road. And I feel personally that's as attorneys, that's something we have to help our clients get to, if the clients allow us to help them move past. And it isn't hard.

Jason:

And that's a really interesting observation about the system and the process. The family law court is trying to figure out what's happening now and then make some orders that are going to impact the future. But in doing so it's focused on all this stuff from the past. And so in one sense, it's like this transition for your life, but it's hard in the sense that a lot of the stuff that I had to get together wasn't forward looking at all. It was looking at the past. And so I think that gets back to my thinking about expectations, just because the past was a certain way, doesn't necessarily mean the future's going to be just like that.

Lani Akiona:

Yeah. And it's hard because to get to that temporary or status where you're trying to get those temporary orders at the beginning of your case, you have to go to the past, because you have to say, look, this is what we've been doing. This is our status quo for parenting for the past six months or the past year. And I've been primarily taking care of the kids. But then moving forward, sometimes we have to think about, okay, well what's the big picture in terms of moving forward because parenting plans when kids are two and four look different when they're now 10 and 12.

Jason:

Yep. If somebody asked me this as I was moving through the system, if somebody asked me what are my hopes for my kids' future? If somebody asked me that, I don't remember it. And I certainly don't remember any sort of answer I would've given, but I think that's something really important for folks to think about. The past may be lousy, but the future doesn't have to be. What are your hopes for the future? What are your hopes for your kids? Most folks that I interact with, even if they're in a lousy situation right now, they do have some sort of hope for the future. And I think thinking about that kind of thing can help with that transition.

Lani Akiona:

What are your hopes for your kids' future?

Jason:

See. Isn't that a baller question? Isn't that a good one? I wish I had spent more time thinking about that. Because I think questions like that pull people's thinking away from just sparring with the ex, because you're moving away from focusing on the fight to focusing on something, hopefully happier in the future.

Lani Akiona:

I was talking to someone and they told me that... No, it's in Arkansas. That Arkansas starts off now with a 50, 50 parenting plan. And from there you have to show the court why a 50, 50 isn't in the kids' best interests.

Jason:

Interesting.

Lani Akiona:

I was like, whoa. I was blown away first of all, that Arkansas would have something that liberal. But it almost seems in terms of like, okay, what are your hopes for the kids' future? In my head, I think about having happy emotionally stable and healthy kids. And there seems to be this trend right now with the courts in general. Well that means having two people, both parents equally in the child's lives, unless there's some reason that can't happen because of either due to distance or if one parent has drug or alcohol problems.

Jason:

That's wild. I had not heard that about Arkansas. I do think it's interesting that there are some different standards, some different expectations from state to state. I do think that's interesting. My divorce was actually finalized in another state and then we got to know each other because I had moved to Washington and needed a lawyer. But it was a shock to me because I thought I understood what was, what, and very quickly came to realize there were things about the way Washington does things that were just different and I'm not making a value judgment. I'm not saying they're better or worse, just different. And that's really interesting to me that a different state Arkansas was coming up with something fundamentally different, so different.

Lani Akiona:

Yeah. Somebody told me that. I'm like, I officially haven't checked it yet. But someone told me about in the sense that they were talking to a family law divorce attorney, and that's what that family law divorce attorney told them. And I'm like, I've got to look into this. I've got to look at this statue, because that's just such an interesting concept. And again I would expect something liberal, like California, to just have it be.

Jason:

I think about the practicalities of that. You asked me a question earlier about our custody arrangement with the kids. And I started talking about distance. I'm currently living in a state that's geographically larger than Arkansas. Washington state is larger than Arkansas, California, vastly bigger. So it does make me wonder if some of these arrangements and their viability are actually tied to that distance between parents and that's where my head was wandering earlier when I mentioned that, I think there would've been some other options available to us if my ex and I had lived in the same city. I mean, holy cow, even adjacent cities. Next city over, next town down the county road. That would've made things vastly different.

Lani Akiona:

Probably. But you folks just didn't have that opportunity because of just jobs and you have to earn a living.

Jason:

Yes. And that gives me another chance to pop off with advice I would give myself back in the day, if I could. A marriage may be dissolving because of a lack of respect between the two spouses that are now divorcing. That may be part of the problem. But if there are kids involved, you're going to have to find some way to be respectful of your ex and their ability to decide where they're going to live and where they're going to work and who they're going to marry and that kind of thing. On some level, even if you were disrespectful of each other back in the day, because reasons, in the present and the future, you're going to have to find a way to get past that. On some level, people take jobs, people get married, other stuff happens. And on that sense, it's almost [crosstalk 01:01:47] like... I'm sorry. Say again Lani.

Lani Akiona:

Life happens.

Jason:

Decisions that we each make in our lives as adults, I get to pick who my dentist is. I get to pick... On some level where I work, I apply for the job, then they pick me. Yay. I'm hired. But it's funny. Just as we were talking, it occurred to me, you go from spouses, then post divorce, if you got kids you're still related kind of, and you're still interacting kind of, but it's not like you had when you were spouses. Now it's like your distant cousins.

Lani Akiona:

Duh.

Jason:

Or something like that. You know what I'm saying?

Lani Akiona:

Yeah.

Jason:

My cousin calls me up and starts talking about some new job he's got. Maybe I think the new job is trash, but he's excited about it. And I love my cousin. He's the best. And so I'm like, oh dude, that sounds good. I'm so happy for you. And I'm thinking the whole time grandma's going to be mad because he is not going to be able to come to Thanksgiving dinner. She's going to be angry. And so that's a silly analogy, but at least in my own story, at some point, both me and my ex had to learn to be respectful of the other one's life choices. And I don't mean like blue shirt versus red shirt. I mean like, hey, I got to get a new job and they just made me an offer in this other town. That's hard. That's a hard decision to make, even when you're not divorced, even when you're not fighting with an ex, even when kids aren't involved. That's hard. And so you got to figure out a way to be respectful of each other.

Lani Akiona:

Wow. That's a good takeaway, being respectful of each other. One thing I wanted to ask about before we wrap up, I wanted to ask, you touched on an interesting point when you said, oh gosh, you're talking something about going to court. And what you think is in your kid's best interest doesn't necessarily align what the court would think. And how does that tie in, in terms of the expectations that you may have had, or a person would have going to the system?

Jason:

Well, I maybe way off base on this, but my assumption was there's a whole gaggle of people out there who figure this stuff out in a way that doesn't require them to lawyer up and go to court and fight with each other. Folks like me and my ex who couldn't figure that out. There were so any problems between us that we just couldn't get beyond. So, we each had our own ideas about what was in the best interest of our kids. And looking back with all this perspective, I think there were some things that she was right about. And I think there were some things that I was right about. But I think each of us got so wrapped up in fighting with each other and just the mindset of being right. It's a stark reality check when you've got some third party. You've got your lawyer, the ex's lawyer and the judge, or maybe it's a magistrate. And now they're telling you something that sure does sound like you're not right.

Jason:

And yo, that's tough. That is tough to hear. And I think that's where my thoughts really were earlier when I said that it's reasonable to expect, you're not going to get everything you want. If you come into it, assuming you're not going to get 100% of what you want, the court's going to rule in the other party's favor on some things. If you come at it with that mindset, it makes that bitter pill a little easier to swallow. Maybe the support ruling doesn't come out in your favor. Maybe it does, maybe custody and visitation doesn't look like what you wanted. Maybe it does. But if you're not expecting to just run the table, if you're not expecting to just get every single thing falling your way, all of a sudden it makes it a little easier to be like, well, okay, I do like the way this went. I wish this had gone a little differently, but this over here, I think that's solid. That's fair.

Lani Akiona:

I See. And it's almost funny because sometimes that's what happens. I mean, that's exactly what happens at mediation sometimes because it's hard when you're trying at the beginning and you're trying to get temporary orders established. And sometimes it is that entrenchment of the position because [inaudible 01:07:44], you're stuck in the past and everything is fresh. And sometimes it does take that fat, but the life of a case where you have to, being this new normal and being a new routine and have things settled down. And then with mediation, hopefully by that point, you're able to go of that expectation and go of that, trying to be like, I've got to have this, this and this. And not only that too, by then you spent more money with your attorney than you anticipated. And you're like, I want to get this done.

Jason:

Right. I think that's a solid bit of advice. And that makes me think just something we talked about just a second ago, and that is the timeline of all of it. If you start off super competitive and you think you're going to get everything you want, then as things are not necessarily going your way and things are dragging out longer and longer and you're investing more money on your attorney, than you thought you were going to, it's so easy in that mindset to then feel like you need to go over the top with the aggression. I just want to be super agro and just bring this to a close right now. And that may not be the fastest path to resolution. It may not be. In my experience, I think our family's case wrapped up as each of us got willing to compromise.

Jason:

And I think I phrase it like that intentionally. It wasn't just that my ex had to compromise. I had to as well. We each had to give some ground on some things in order for things to wrap up. Every once in a while I hear about some gazillionaire whose litigation plays out over like a decade. And it's like, dude, who has either the time or the money to do that. What? Knock that off. Pay for your kid to go to college instead. What? I mean.

Lani Akiona:

That's right. You'd have to be a gazillionaire to do that. So Jason, thank you so much. And what would be your takeaway? Now that all said and done, again, I think it's been 10 years or something since I last worked with you. Looking back now, would be the takeaway that you would give to yourself or to people out there.

Jason:

There's an old saw out of counseling, out of psychology. And it goes like this, the counselor asks their client, would you rather be happy or would you rather be right? And what's funny is when people respond, I don't know what you mean. There's not a difference there. What? Yes there is. But my big takeaway would be this. If you're coming into your divorce, if you're coming into your custody disagreement, if you're coming into that, just wanting to be right, you are not going to be happy.

Lani Akiona:

Okay.

Jason:

If you're really focused on your own happiness, then that's going to come at the expense of the other players. That's your ex. Okay, fine. Maybe you want them to be unhappy. I don't know. But if there are kids involved, do you really want your kids to be unhappy? Do you really want your kids unhappiness to be the price paid for you getting what you want? Is that it? So I would encourage people to really think about that dynamic. Are you interested in being right? Or are you interested in being happy? And if there are kids involved, are you interested in your kids' happiness, or in you being right relative to your ex? Because I think those dynamics, I think that's really going to define how things play out.

Lani Akiona:

Thank you so much, Jason.

Jason:

Thanks for having me.

Lani Akiona:

All right.

Jason:

By-bye.

Lani Akiona:

Thank you, listeners, everyone out there for joining us on another level. Another episode of the Akiona law podcast, we're in. We talk about all things related that intersect with family law and divorce. And until next time I am Lani Akiona and stay safe and stay healthy. Thank you.