012 - Co-parenting advice from the successful coach, mediator, and author, Karen Bonnell

Discover why you need to create a child-centered parenting plan. The established co-parenting coach and author Karen Bonnell sat with us to explain why this is essential for you, your former spouse, and your children.
Learn more at https://akionalaw.com.

Transcript

00:00:07.000 --> 00:00:17.000

Hi karen again. I really missed you anyway, so let's just do it again.

00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:24.000

Oh, my gosh, i'm so sorry it is recording now perfect recording on the top!

00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:29.000

But it was so weird, because I swear it was a recording last time.

00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:32.000

As you know what I remember clicking a button, too.

00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:36.000

That, said I acknowledged that we were being recorded.

00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:42.000

So yeah, wonder, you know, I wonder if what I don't know if you remember.

00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:51.000

But when we started you could remember the name of your own plot, and you were, you know, kind of befuddled a little bit, and then you started over.

00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:55.000

Is there a chance you might have thought you started I don't know it doesn't matter.

00:00:55.000 --> 00:01:01.000

It doesn't matter you know I don't know either but There's been, I don't know if anything to do too with

00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:10.000

There's been some Internet issues going on some of that Yeah, But anyway, like i'm glad we get to do this again, hey?

00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:13.000

I know hard done, I mean seriously. here is the thing.

00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:29.000

I was just brushing my teeth before her meeting and I Thought I am so glad to be living a life where when mistakes happen, it doesn't matter, because when mistakes happen, it doesn't matter, you know because I was lived when I

00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:36.000

was working as hard as I was working the last couple of years when things like that 

00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:48.000

5, 4, 3, 2, one, hi! Welcome to another episode of the Akiona

00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:54.000

Podcast We're in. We talk about all things that intersect in the areas of family law and divorce.

00:03:54.000 --> 00:04:05.000

My name is Lani Akiona owner of Akiona Law, family law, divorce for Firm and I'm. so excited to have today co-parenting Coach Karen Bonnell. Hi

00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:08.000

Karen. welcome to the show. lani thank you so much for having me.

00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:22.000

It's always a pleasure to be with an attorney who really gets that The heart of family law is the word family, and how important it is that we remember, even as we restructure our families at the end.

00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:29.000

For our children they're still family and that's what our goal is, and I'm so excited to have you here.

00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:46.000

You have like, over 30 years experience working in this area working with families and the you've written the books that you've written which kind of really help shape how we are attorneys are approaching our cases and working with families you've got

00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:52.000

the co-parenting handbook that came out in 2,014, and then again in 2,017.

00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:55.000

Correct. second second edition in 2,017

00:04:55.000 --> 00:05:00.000

Very exciting and you've got the parenting plan workingbook.

00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:07.000

And that's a video series right Well, It has a video series that marches right along with it.

00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:12.000

Felicia Mosby. solely attorney and Gig Harbor is with me on those.

00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:17.000

So we're talking, both from a legal perspective, and the coaching mental health perspective.

00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:23.000

But it just walks parents through the thinking behind a child-centered parenting plan.

00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:32.000

Then you've also got you recently came out with a step family handbook for dating to getting serious to forming a blended family. correct?

00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:40.000

I mean it's all just part of the continuum is isn't it Original families restructuring that original family.

00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:50.000

And guess what happens often within 2 to 5 years is we restructure again, as adults recoup and create next time families.

00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:58.000

And the co-parenting handbook is available on on audio, on audible, on audible as is the Step Family Handbook.

00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:04.000

Oh, okay, great, exciting. So tell us, how did you? How did you get into this field?

00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:09.000

Because you actually started off, I believe, as a psychiatric nurse, you know.

00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:18.000

Crazy, Right? Yeah. crazy being the word. Yeah. So I was trained as a psychotherapist and outpatient psychotherapist.

00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:23.000

And I am you're right A lot I was a licensed first practitioner inside mental health.

00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:38.000

I did that solidly for 3035 years. But right along the way. Couple walked into my office one day when I was a psychotherapist, and they said our very best friends told us that you would help us get divorced and I said

00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:41.000

No, I don't i've never done that I don't do that.

00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:53.000

I have been divorced myself, so I was at least acquainted with the process at a parenting plan, and the synonymous, and that, and after about 3 rounds of they said you'd say that and we're supposed to tell

00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:57.000

you you'll do it, anyway. I finally gave in and I said, Hey, listen!

00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:04.000

I will help. the 2 of you have the courageous conversations that you need to have. in order to develop a child-centered parent.

00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:17.000

You pin with one caveat that when you leave this office or when we're done in that process, that you immediately take it to family law attorneys, and have it vetted and examined, and you get the legal education and

00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:26.000

so forth, which they agreed to do. would you know, because I I had never done it before, and I was very clear that I was just helping them have the conversations?

00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:36.000

Well, they came back after meeting with their attorneys, and they had both been given very high marks on what they had accomplished, and what we did together was strategy.

00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:42.000

You said you help them develop a child-centered parenting plan, correct, correct?

00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:46.000

Yeah. And so that got me so very excited that I went to the law school.

00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:56.000

Now, March, they do the Pacific Northwest dispute resolution program every year at the University of Washington I went, and I fell in love.

00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:59.000

I just fell in love with collaborative divorce coaching.

00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:03.000

I fell in love with consensual dispute. Resolution!

00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:09.000

It really answered something for me about families when they need to restructure something.

00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:14.000

I wanted to be a part of. Yes. So when did you make that transition?

00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:19.000

Then what year was that? That was 2,006. yeah, 2,006.

00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:34.000

And so from that on i've just been I dwindled down my practice, I saw my last psychotherapy client in 2,014. So it was dwindling down psychotherapy increasing all things related to family law family

00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:39.000

restructuring, divorce coaching, co-parent coaching dispute, resolution.

00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:42.000

So let's get into the meat and potatoes.

00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:48.000

What is a co-parenting coach? Great question, and an important one.

00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:53.000

So there are lots of. So let me start out by saying anybody can be a co-parent coach.

00:08:53.000 --> 00:09:00.000

So someone who went through a divorce and decided they now want to help other people go through divorce can literally put up a website inside.

00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:03.000

I'm a co-parenting coach i'm a divorce coacher.

00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:06.000

I help you get away from your nursesistic spout.

00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:14.000

Start right. any of those things that I think that's important for listeners to know that all coaches are not equal.

00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:18.000

And what do I mean by that? it's important when you're choosing a coach?

00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:24.000

Whether that's a life coach or divorce code, local parenting coach that you look at what their training and background is right.

00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:28.000

Are they trained to? Are they literally trained to do the work they do?

00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:31.000

Or are they basing it on their own one-off experience?

00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:36.000

And they now want to share that with you that's just important too.

00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:44.000

But, anyway, that being said, most co-parenting coaches that work in the collaborative lab community are in consensual dispute.

00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:49.000

Resolution have at least a master's degree in a mental health field.

00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:59.000

Okay, So as social work or psychic nursing or a licensed counselor, they have a master's re-plus licensure.

00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:10.000

Okay, So those people are committed taking their family systems knowledge so they've all learned about family system and their programs, and they understand how families work.

00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:23.000

They're taking that information as well, as good solid basic mental health information about how adults function, you know Oftentimes they also have a child development, background.

00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:30.000

So notice 3 things: family systems, adult mental health, child development, right?

00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:43.000

So when they have that combination of underpinning for the work that they're going to be doing with you, you can imagine that's a rich body of knowledge right to draw from is their coaching.

00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:50.000

Either you individually, or you and your soon to be former spouse to become the co-parents that you want to become.

00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:58.000

So that's what a copper coach is and sometimes it's, sometimes they're called divorce coaches.

00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:06.000

They force me to do the same thing. It just happens to be that most co-parent coaches like in my case.

00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:12.000

I start with people before they enter their divorce process and work with them all the way throughout and after.

00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:18.000

Right. So then I might be functioning as a divorce coach, becoming a co-parent coach. right.

00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:27.000

Sometimes co-parent coaches start after the divorce is final, and they're simply happy, helping what we call post-docree.

00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:33.000

Once the divorce is complete. so basically coming in after the divorce.

00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:50.000

Okay, let me just just reiterate here. So the divorce coach essentially comes in at the beginning of the process and helps people transition to becoming parent centered, maybe creating a child-centered parenting plan right and help you meet

00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:55.000

that plan, how to mediate that plan, to to create, to focus on what you focus on the child?

00:11:55.000 --> 00:12:00.000

Rather than getting past that parent, dynamic or conflict.

00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:11.000

Then, when that if that's done you can come in afterwards, but you're no longer divorced coach because the divorce is finalized, you're now the co-parenting coach right helping parents function together

00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:23.000

pull separation for the benefit of their child. Keep that kiddo or kiddo is central, as they begin to stabilize in 2 home family life.

00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:27.000

It's not an easy transition it's very doable but with support.

00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:32.000

It's it's certainly much easier than sort of inventing the wheel, you know.

00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:37.000

One couple at a time. Otherwise, couples are kind of trying to invent a wheel right?

00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:42.000

That they don't need to do alone. you know we know what really supports to home.

00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:49.000

And they're like we know what's gonna help Children thrive so co-parent coaches want to help.

00:12:49.000 --> 00:13:02.000

Parents know that information at the first possible moment that it's useful right? and it just kind of ties in hand in hand, I guess, in terms of my next question, was going to be, What's the benefit of working with a

00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:08.000

co-parenting coach for people who don't you know who still kind of need that question in their mind.

00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:22.000

And I I to me, my very simple lawyer, answer is Well, instead of you coming to me and spending money to help you, resolve this conflict and not really getting something that you're happy with you use a co-parented

00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:30.000

coach to not only help you resolve conflict, but learn to better communicate with the other parent, which is really folk, and to focus on your child.

00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:35.000

You know a good metaphor, you're absolutely right Lonnie.

00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:43.000

But think about this when we find out if we were if we became parents because we birthed a child right like we made it a decision to get pregnant.

00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:51.000

We're now pregnant. most couples most sets of parent take a breathing class.

00:13:51.000 --> 00:14:01.000

Yes, right they go, and they find out all this information. Together They learn how to breathe in ways that are going to facilitate that delivery.

00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:04.000

They learn about how they'll handle unexpected outcomes.

00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:11.000

God forbid they don't keep going back to the upstetrician for all of that, right they they just don't right.

00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:15.000

And so the co-parent coach can function like that.

00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:22.000

Preparation for childbirth coach who is going to be that preparation for divorce or preparation for 2 home family life.

00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:31.000

This doesn't mean that obstetrician the attorney, and in our metaphor is an important it's a different resource.

00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:37.000

Right. right. All that psychoeducational work some of the emotional unpacking that needs to happen.

00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:52.000

It's going to happen over there with your divorce or co-parent coach where your legal guidance your information around the legal process, and of course, all the ideas that come with your many years of experience are going to be

00:14:52.000 --> 00:15:07.000

helpful, but typically you're only working with one member of the couple almost always I'm working with both of them, because at the end of the day they're both going to be parents together, even though they're living separately, they and though they're not

00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:13.000

married there's still parents together for that kiddo and that's that's and that's one thing to. I like about your book, Karen.

00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:26.000

You throw in these really great, real-life you know these great examples to illustrate the point, and just that example right there like I'm pretty sure my husband and I took some class learned like learn how to Swaddle a

00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:33.000

baby, and even how to change diapers look, and I can take a swimming No, and then, you know.

00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:40.000

And then, later on, when the baby comes working with like a breastfeeding coach, because nobody tells you how to do that.

00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:44.000

That's stuff doesn't come naturally there's actually a way to do it.

00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:55.000

I was like, Oh, my gosh! so much work! So it makes sense when you transition it that way, that this is just another way to kind of support, not and support.

00:15:55.000 --> 00:16:03.000

Basically the child transition to minimize that conflict because you don't want to be back in court every single time when the divorce is finalized.

00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:22.000

It's , the better we understand. Oh, excuse me. I was just gonna say, the more skilled and the more skilled and prepared we are, the easier it is for children to move through their own grading process, and get back into their

00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:25.000

developmental stages and just start to rock and roll again.

00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:30.000

Remember living across 2 houses is not what harms children.

00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:44.000

Children learn how to move back and forth between them, with one parent in their home with the other parent, just like they, you know, in days of old, many older people like myself had the experience of having a home away from home at a grandparents

00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:48.000

it was never stressful to go to hit the rampants.

00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:52.000

You just went parents right. You knew your choice where you know where your bet was.

00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:59.000

You knew where you put your clothes. Kids are very capable of learning how to move between their homes.

00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:15.000

What's harmful is when parents get them caught in the middle, when they fight, when that is, and when parents can't work together to make those transitions smooth, that's what's hard onkins, So those are the skills I teach how to

00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:20.000

do it in a way that's best for kids you know caring that such an important thing that you just said right there.

00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:25.000

It's not the going back and forth and living into household that stresses our kids out.

00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:36.000

It's a conflict between the parents and you you make me Just think, you made me think back when my mom and dad were divorced, and they got divorced when I was really young maybe 3 years old. So that's all i've known

00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:45.000

and just, you know, you know, went back and forth. It was fine and no problems but what it was when I think about it now.

00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:53.000

There was never any conflict between my mom and dad and was only when I got older, and then my mom was old enough to tell me things, and i'm like Oh, wow!

00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:55.000

You never told me that, and of course my mom was like, Why would I?

00:17:55.000 --> 00:18:00.000

You were just a kid. I can involve you and stuff like that, and it makes sense.

00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:06.000

I'm like well, thank God, she didn't because I never had any problems, because they didn't put me in their conflict.

00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:12.000

And then how to do it. Stuff, too, you know what's the biggest conflict that has to do with child support and fighting and things like that.

00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:19.000

But I never knew anything and never knew any of that. So yeah, but your mama, your mama was so wise.

00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:29.000

I just have to think, give a shout out to your mom, If you still want this on the planet, because here's the thing here often forget that children need to be protected from adult problems.

00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:35.000

We do it intuitively. We do it intuitively in a one home family in a you know, in a healthy one.

00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:47.000

Home family. We don't expose children to things that they have no control over, or they have no part in right, and your mama was smart enough to know that she wasn't going to use you as an ally by telling you things about

00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:52.000

your dad that could have harmed your relationship with him right? right?

00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:56.000

So important and so true. And thank you, Mom, for doing that.

00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:00.000

Go home I know she's amazing she's very amazing all honestly.

00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:07.000

She basically brought me my sister up as a single parent and just never, And we never knew how hard it was.

00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:19.000

So. Thank you, Mom, but moving forward, I think you brought forth a very important concept in your book that co-parenting Handbook that talks about spouse inered mind and parent-centered mind.

00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:25.000

Can you explain what that is? You bet the quick course on that is 2 adults?

00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:30.000

Okay, We're just going to talk about this as kind of a normative sort of stereotypic example, man and a woman.

00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:35.000

They meet their hearts light on fire, they fall in love.

00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:40.000

Right, Okay, and they get married all right Now that could of course be 2 moms and 2 daughters.

00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:44.000

But let's just go with Dad. Mom Okay, man man and woman.

00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:49.000

Okay, so they follow up. they get married and together they decide to have a child.

00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:52.000

So when they're up here. they're adults they're professionals.

00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:55.000

They're now Spouses husbands and lives they have a child.

00:19:55.000 --> 00:20:03.000

Okay, little one gets born, they become parents, all right. So yeah, the fact is that they have identities.

00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:09.000

Now, as professionals are people or workers, and they are husbands and wives, man, woman, all that kind of stuff.

00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:19.000

But they add into it. Mom and dad so these are like roles right. And when we're married and in a one-on-one family, they're all swished together just like This right.

00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:32.000

So husband, wife, man, woman, you know, mother, father, when we separate in divorce, what comes to a close, What we are bringing to an end is the husband.

00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:36.000

Wife is this spousal relationship? is the intimate partnership.

00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:43.000

So what we have to untangle out of this web of roles and relationships is the husband wife piece.

00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:50.000

We're gonna pull that out we're going to pull that out So we're still going to be man a woman.

00:20:50.000 --> 00:21:04.000

We're still going to be our worker or professional sales, whatever that is, and we're going to be connected in one place in one place and link parents, we are a parenting pair until death do us part when we have a

00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:08.000

child together. so here and see, pair until death do us part.

00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:17.000

When you have a child that's exactly right so co parentsing Sometimes parents will come in and they'll say to me. Okay, I can't compare it with that person.

00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:23.000

I don't trust them, i'm not gonna co-parent with them, I mean they just got their foot down, and they're jaw clenched.

00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:26.000

And I look at them, and I say, do you share a child with that person?

00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:34.000

Well, yes, I do. and I say that it's not a question of whether you're co-parent the question is, will you, co-parent?

00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:43.000

Skillfully, that's the question that that's kind of mind-blowing it's not a question of whether or not you're gonna co-parent, because you have a child together, it's a question of where

00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:53.000

they're going to co-parent skillfully exactly or not pile, or your child, or not back to our question.

00:21:53.000 --> 00:22:03.000

Suppose mine is. All this stuff related to being adults who got married had an intimate partnership that did not endure.

00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:14.000

They did not sustain and there's often all kinds of feelings about that money heard and betrayal disappointment, grief, loss of lots of dreams.

00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:18.000

I mean you name it, but that's all of here in the spouse.

00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:23.000

Mind as parents as parents. when I get parents in my office I don't care.

00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:28.000

How does stress they are? There comes a point when I say to them, I want to.

00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:35.000

I want to learn about your kiddos. so I want to hear from both of you about Madeleine and Tyler right?

00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:47.000

And then one of them will start and honest to pete the that iphones come out because now i'm gonna get pictures of me and the Tyler, and they're they're looking at each other like don't you think

00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:58.000

tyler's just got the best smile ever and madeline is really smart, and she's a little athlete and suddenly all of the noise is out of the room.

00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:15.000

Because it's parents and I tell appearances you are the luckiest parents in the world, because you have Madeleine and Tyler, and don't ever forget the responsibility that you have to stuart them into adulthood is the

00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:25.000

parenting pair that you'll always be Wow. you know that just that just last night was my husband's <unknown>th birthday, and we went out to dinner.

00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:37.000

We took our kids and we took her you know we took her kids to this place. and I said, Hey, this is a first dinner that we're having together as a family where we're going to the special occasions restaurant because you guys

00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:41.000

have always been to young they're 14 and 16 so now you get to join me, and down on the special occasion.

00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:49.000

Oh, my! and my husband said, You know you know what my greatest achievement is, he goes having you boys, and I said, Wait! No, no!

00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:56.000

First it's marrying me Then having you boys, when you said that you know it.

00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:02.000

Just it's like, Yeah, my grace achievement is having you boys.

00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:09.000

It's the kids and It just almost kind of makes me think it, you know, and just reading your book is just it's so helpful to me me and my Husband haven't married.

00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:19.000

I always forget we got married in 2,000 so going on 22 years beautiful, and it's not easy right there's conflict, and there's conflict about the kids because we have different expectations different ways.

00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:33.000

We were raised and reading this book. I can see where i'm in spouse in your mind, and you know versus parent mind where spouse in your mind is like No, it's this is this it's this and I with I see it now is like i'm in my

00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:46.000

head. But if i'm in parent centered mine where i'm thinking like he said, my greatest achievement is to you kids as you kids that's like the heart that's come in the heart, So beautiful and that's so true he

00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:49.000

just spouted off on his birthday about parent-centered stuff.

00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:56.000

And it was beautiful because the boys were there. What a precious memory for them!

00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:02.000

Then he would say that so beautiful, but it's just so Funny because it's just I just clicked in my head right now.

00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:13.000

That's a really good example. of like how we're you know when we argue, and just oh, no well, you've got to do it this way. And And then, when he says a comment like that, I think i'm just gonna have

00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:17.000

to like file that in my catalog of like, Okay, parent centered mine.

00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:33.000

Try and focus You know when you're to be parent centered what's coming from the heart. and it goes to that concept like you know, 1 one of our conflicts is always all the time like, and i'm using you said this in your book and I rolled it down i'm gonna pull it up it says

00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:50.000

co-parenting. is not a competitive sport it's not a competition between 2 homes. and it's not a competition to Yeah, Well, here's the thing this is actually something that the legal system has contributed

00:25:50.000 --> 00:26:00.000

to, because we often talk about in divorce that we're gonna do put hands on hips for a minute, and we're gonna do it to the best interest of our children.

00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:07.000

Well, the word best implies beneath that is better and beneath that is good.

00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:14.000

So like there's this stack ranking a competitive There's already a competitive mindset of which one of you is good.

00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:24.000

Which one of you is better and which one of you is best because your children deserve what is best, and there's not a parent that's listening, including my selfish speaking.

00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:42.000

They didn't want what was best for my kids what I often have to say to parents is that what is best for your kids is the 2 of you to work together to come to solutions and decisions that are good enough for their well-being that's

00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:51.000

what's best for kids, and so we're not looking for the best parent to have more parenting time that's irrelevant.

00:26:51.000 --> 00:27:04.000

But we know It's best for kids is that children need 2 good enough parents loving, engaged, warm providing structure for their children across both homes.

00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:09.000

They need to good enough parents. Not a best parent and a not so best parent.

00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:21.000

That's. not how we think about it right hey? so yeah it's not a competitive sport, and as soon as I hear a parent say, Well, I just don't think he's thinking about what's in the best interest of our

00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:29.000

children. Yes, I say, okay, that freezingology is often used to some weapon to say, i'm better than you.

00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:36.000

Yes, Whoa, whoa that's not always conscious but it's really the truth.

00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:42.000

And so we make an agreement real early on that. Neither parent will throw that out.

00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:49.000

The other you're not doing what's in the best friend to serve our children. Say we're not throwing that at each other.

00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:53.000

We're going to step back and say you know I would really appreciate.

00:27:53.000 --> 00:28:06.000

If we could look at what the American academy of pediatric says about screen time, so that you and I can come to an agreement about what's a reasonable amount of screen time for our ten-year-old

00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:22.000

right right rather than hands. on hip know what's in the Best interest of our kids, and you're not doing it, and I laugh because I feel like I've been in that position with my husband hands on him you know you're not

00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:26.000

acting in the business of the kids. They need to eat organic broccoli.

00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:38.000

You need to eat, I know, i'm that parent they need to eat backward and cheese with some vegetables inside, not just macaroni and cheese, and you you share this thing in the book where it talked about an example of

00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:45.000

a parent, saying, Well, I understand my spouse. maybe a macaroni and cheese type of spouse.

00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:54.000

But guard don you know. gosh darn it as long as he's, you know, and I think, and I think it used as long as he's the best macaroni and she spouse.

00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:59.000

Then, hey? hats off exactly as long as he's the best macaroni!

00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:12.000

And cheese Dad in the world. i'm just not gonna heal nip the fact that for those days that the children are in restless with him, home with him, being loved by him, having the care warmth and structure that they need from

00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:16.000

him back, and cheese you go i'll take care of the organic broccoli.

00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:24.000

I can do do that. Yeah. Oh, goodness, yeah many fights to let it go.

00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:31.000

You know. Let him make macaroni and cheese without vegetables, at least be grateful.

00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:40.000

That's that's what he's doing right kids are getting that modeling, modeling boys into men about Dads being able to cook and be handy in the kitchen.

00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:44.000

I don't care if it's just me and tease or pizza, or whatever.

00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:56.000

Exactly now that doesn't mean that you and he if you were living across 2 homes, and the boys were really having Mac and cheese and pizza rawls, and Mountain.

00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:04.000

Do you know the entire time that they're at home with their dad that you would sit down and say, Hey, can we take a look at this again?

00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:10.000

Look at this. Take a look at best practices for growing teenage, boys.

00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:21.000

Right. Yeah, That's a different conversation than wielding you're not doing what's in the boy's best interest right instead of an attack.

00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:25.000

You're you're coming at it from a collaborative engaging manner.

00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:36.000

Exactly rather than your you're doing this this isn't sometimes it's hard, and because even when I mean when you're an attorney, and your litigation mode you are in this you're an attack

00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:48.000

mode but i've but and there's circumstances where that is warranted of course, and we're not, you know, when we're dealing with someone who may be dealing with addiction issues mental health issues

00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:58.000

or domestic violence issues. But we're talking about in a situation where parents just not are not getting along because of their own conflict. as you're talking about.

00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:05.000

You know there's hurt betrayal anger and then it's that conflict is now carrying over to their kids.

00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:12.000

That's exactly right. and there's a big difference we don't want to act out our anger through our children as if it's the last.

00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:20.000

It's the last opportunity for me to hurt you I remember you back, and the last place that I can do that is through our children.

00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:25.000

Are you kidding me. Yeah, you know that's where we really want parents to be very conscious.

00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:30.000

Children do not carry that burden burden they should not carry that burden.

00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:40.000

It's not there's and it's harmful when we use them as if they are pawns in a divorce process, wanted to step back.

00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:54.000

One step, though, to our parents, who have complex circles for the listeners who might have a person that they are divorcing and separating from who might have addictions or mental health issues, or maybe honestly, they really don't have

00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:07.000

adequate parenting skills that's can happen right a parent who's been working 80 h a week at you know, one of our high tech companies, and maybe kind of breezes through on the weekends but really is

00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:12.000

never done much in the way of parts and home parenting that can happen.

00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:20.000

Those are things again for our children. Say we don't use that as a privilege to marginalize that parent.

00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:29.000

We use that we use that in terms of what our children need is an opportunity to participate in health restoration.

00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:32.000

In other words, we need addictions to be treated.

00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:38.000

Children do not deserve the to be left alone with addicted parents That's not a good thing.

00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:47.000

None of us want that. At the same time I would hope for that other parent, for the parent who is not suffering from addiction.

00:32:47.000 --> 00:33:03.000

To be really clear. Get your addiction under control. do What you need to do to be a safe parent for our children, because our kids need you because our children need you just like they need me.

00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:08.000

I'm not gonna want them to be with you when you're addicted right when you're acting out your addiction.

00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:11.000

But I will want them to be with you when you can be healthy.

00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:16.000

So what would that look like? Yeah, how would we structure those daytime visits?

00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:23.000

How would we structure? supervised time on a weekend to go on a picnic if that's what I need to do?

00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:39.000

So that's a different approach than using the fact that i've a mental health issue, an addiction issue even domestic violence that you know if it's being treated it's being treated everyone in a family deserves to

00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:48.000

be safe. I say this to all of my parents. Everyone deserves to feel safe, not punished.

00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:52.000

They deserve to feel safe. So what do we need to do to get there?

00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:56.000

You know this phrase? I just thought of the question right now in terms.

00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:04.000

Have you ever had a situation? Where you've had 2 parents come to you for an initial meeting, where you're forming about co-parenting?

00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:15.000

Has it ever been a situation where, after that initial meeting you see that the parties are just so far apart that you say i'm sorry this isn't gonna work for you or just you Oh, okay, that does happen.

00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:22.000

Then. Yes, so there is a very clear exception Well, there's a couple of really clear exceptions.

00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:30.000

One is someone who has an addiction process operating and has is an absolute denial and unwillingness.

00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:36.000

Oh, and an unwillingness to understand that children deserve sober parents on parenting time.

00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:40.000

Basically silver parents. So that would be one there is another one Lonnie.

00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:45.000

And there's a lot written about this I think it's being recklessly handled.

00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:50.000

But there's such a thing as a character, disorder what we call an access to diagnosis, right?

00:34:50.000 --> 00:35:05.000

So the words that we'll hear from a psychiatrist, or someone who is qualified to make this diagnosis would be someone who's narcissistic personality disorder borderline personality disorder sometimes

00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:22.000

folks with that particular brokenness are really unwilling, and to some extent maybe incapable of making the changes they need to make to be a participant in a computering situation.

00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:35.000

But you know that type of in that type of situation that type of disorder is wouldn't wouldn't the the one parent who is dealing with the parent who's suffering from that disorder wouldn't that one parent benefit with working

00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:43.000

with the co-parenting coach to learn the skills and Tuesday necessary, how to handle that parent 100%.

00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:56.000

Okay, absolutely 100%. and we got it we have to keep in mind that as much as there is such a benefit when we can work together to a work together in co-parenting at the end of the day.

00:35:56.000 --> 00:36:03.000

Whether i'm a skillful co-parent or not is in my file, I decide that the end of the day.

00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:10.000

If I've been skillful and co-parenting practices, it's not because of what you've done, Lonnie.

00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:12.000

So I'm never gonna say Well, you're a terrible co-parent.

00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:17.000

So i'm gonna be a terrible co-parent back I mean this is an eighth grade.

00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:21.000

You know this isn't a spat in the girls bathroom.

00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:34.000

This is I am going to do what is best by my children as a co-parent and a parent regardless of what you do right, and that's at the end of the day.

00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:49.000

What's best for kids, because one strong period you learn this one skillful parent, even if things are not ideal on both sides right, gives you as a child what you need.

00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:55.000

Yes, so important, and I love your analogy there, just because one person is being a sheddy goal, sheddy coast.

00:36:55.000 --> 00:37:06.000

Excuse me a crappy cold parent doesn't mean I think you I get a B one, too. It's almost as if okay, Well, because you're an alcoholic husband, I mean I get it being

00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:13.000

alcoholic. No, bring out the Chardonnay let's get trashed. Know I tell when I'm in that situation.

00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:23.000

I tell them, Hey, you should check out Allanon, which is basically a support group to help, you know, with people who do have loved ones spouses, friends, family members that are alcoholics.

00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:30.000

And how you can deal with that. Learn the tools and skills you need to cope with an alcoholic one.

00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:38.000

So the same thing. Where if you're dealing with someone has a borderline personality, disorder or narcissistic personality disorder?

00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:40.000

Why not work with a co-parenting coach?

00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:46.000

So at least you can be the best parent you can possibly be for your kid's success.

00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:57.000

I love that idea right exactly. No, no, Just one comment about the business of using in the vernacular someone's a narcissist.

00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:01.000

Beautiful, beautiful thing from Bill Eddy, and you might be familiar with Bill Lani.

00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:13.000

He is an attorney who became a family therapist, major contributor to our field, and Bill taught something to me years and years years, but I will never forget.

00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:16.000

Take a normally high strung person, that would be me.

00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:21.000

I'm a normally high struck person i'm kind of like let's make things happen right.

00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:28.000

Yeah. and you put that person under enough stress, right? and they begin to look like a high-.

00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:39.000

Conflict personality percent. you take that person Now you put them under that much stress, and you put them under even more stress, and they are very much going to look like a narcissist.

00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:55.000

There's a divorce they're gonna exactly my point So if they're gonna cope from a place of such compensation that they can look like something that's actually very serious diagnosis it's different right when

00:38:55.000 --> 00:39:03.000

you look like you have behaviors like someone with narcissistic personality, or and someone who has.

00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:11.000

And I want to be very clear about that because I believe that term he's the narcissist she's a nurses that she's a borderline is completely overused.

00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:23.000

It's about maybe 7 to 10% of our divorcing families we're suffering what's something that complicated.

00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:35.000

Yeah, the other the rest of us we might wish we could say the reason I can't get along with my soon to be exposed, because they're a narcissist hand again. hands on Yep.

00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:42.000

Let's let's be careful let's be fair and Let's remember our kids actually need 2 good enough healthy parents.

00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:54.000

We don't need to be labeling each other or mislabeling each other, You know that's such an important point, too, because just I I kind of think you back some of the cases i've gone through divorces where that

00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:59.000

was thrown around and you get a psychologically evaluation, and that's not what the evaluation comes about.

00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:12.000

What administration the evaluation. recognizes that the parent is operating in a lot of stress, and so these behaviors are just heightened, and if you're control fake like i'm a control freak i'm

00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:15.000

very like i'm very intense right let's get things done Let's get things done.

00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:22.000

Let's do it my way I could easily see the in a stress situation such as a divorce I could come across as a narcissist.

00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:29.000

Exactly exactly. and I know that I could, too, because those are that I just up my need to be in control.

00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:34.000

As I get further and further under stresses, Will Lonnie.

00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:41.000

Many of us do many us do, and so this is why It's important to step a chat about it.

00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:50.000

Well, karen if I get divorced i'm coming to you for co-parenting coaching, So I don't sabotage my kid, and you're gonna lovely co-parent of yours.

00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:59.000

Along with you no matter how mad you are because we're gonna figure that out. I actually feel like coming to you now and be like, hey?

00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:10.000

We're kind of high conflict help us out whoo. Okay, but I go in on to do the 2 good enough parents. There was something in your book, too, that I wanted to touch upon.

00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:14.000

It was about gatekeeping, and the idea of too good enough parents.

00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:22.000

So we can, if you can go and to do fine what is gatekeeping mean because it's something we throw around a lot in the legal field.

00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:33.000

But don't know people really know that term means or understand right gatekeeping is really driven from a deep fear of of oftentimes of being separated from your child.

00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:38.000

But on top of the fear of being separated from your child, a kind of separation anxiety.

00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:48.000

It's also related to a fear that somehow you're gonna to fail your child in terms of being able to provide what you believe is best.

00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:58.000

What you believe is best and so gatekeeping means that i'm going to control the information i'm going to control how the child is cared for.

00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:08.000

I'm gonna might manage you I micromanage i'm going to criticize what you're doing if it falls short of what I believe should be happening.

00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:17.000

So notice all the referencing it's gonna be driven from It's gonna come up from inside of me, and it's gonna cause me to do these kinds of behaviors.

00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:35.000

But at the end of the day, or i'm just really afraid of the loss that i'm facing the loss of control over my child. the loss of time with my child. the loss of influence with my child. I really don't want you to

00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:42.000

go get anybody else in your life. don't bring somebody in because my gatekeeping, like gatekeeping behaviors are going to escalate.

00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:45.000

If you go up and get a girlfriend or a boyfriend.

00:42:45.000 --> 00:43:00.000

Yeah, Because now i'm going to even want to try and control more so without the inside of where it's coming from driven by deep separation, fear and anxiety around being away from your kiddo and the great and the

00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:07.000

grief associated with the fact that you're not going to be able to execute in the way that you always drain.

00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:12.000

This is my baby. i'm going to raise it my way and I'm going to do it until they're 47.

00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:31.000

I love that right if we're not addressing those underlying concerns the gatekeepings aren't going anywhere. Encounter a very deep place, right? you know what it's almost for me I just clicked in

00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:38.000

my head right now. It makes me think about when my you know my kids are young and they're one years old, and that you talk about the the child.

00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:46.000

Anxiety. right? Separation? Yeah, when the you leave your baby you drop your baby off a day, Carry the babysitters and your baby's crying.

00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:53.000

You're like no No, and then you happen to check back a minute later, in your child's plane and is happy right that separation anxiety for kids.

00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:58.000

It almost feels like gatekeeping the separation anxiety for parents.

00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:04.000

100%. That is exactly what I was trying to communicate, and you just said it beautifully.

00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:10.000

Barry S. to think. Yes, its separation. anxiety for the parent.

00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:12.000

Yeah. and I and I get that I mean as a parent.

00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:15.000

I mean I had I you know I I must have that.

00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:18.000

I could see myself going through separation, anxiety, leaving my kids alone.

00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:25.000

Leave it, and leaving them with my mom, whom I love and trust, who obviously raised me right, and feeling, except for what I saidparation, anxiety is like Oh, no!

00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:37.000

There was my Mall for a night, but but knowing that my mom is good enough right, but so let's just transition over to.

00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:40.000

And sometimes I think it what can happen it's like if I'm.

00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:43.000

A stay at home, Mom, you know I have the kids routine.

00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:50.000

This is what I do this is when they feed them i'm taking to the activities you you've been working 4050 h a week.

00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:55.000

There's no possible way that you can parent these kids on their own like.

00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:01.000

How do you move that parent, me past app to give up that trust?

00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:05.000

I mean, if you know, trust the other person that they can do and maybe not as good as me.

00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:10.000

But good enough, great, good enough, that's the key brisk hell. it's good enough sometimes.

00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:14.000

I just have to sort of smile to myself because oftentimes that other parent.

00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:22.000

Maybe They're running their own company. or Maybe they have been you know, managing the entire maintenance department at the high school, or what I mean.

00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:27.000

They have all different, that maybe they're a police officer it doesn't matter right?

00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:33.000

What matters is they have incredible skills, right? I mean if we really sat down and looked at a resume.

00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:37.000

We'd go. Oh, my gosh! this person has incredible skills and talents!

00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:42.000

They might not have been applied to heart that home parenting but they have capacity.

00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:46.000

What's my one where am I really going here they have capacity?

00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:58.000

So I spend time in that first 3, 4, 5, sometimes 6 months of co-parent coaching, really downloading from the parent, the hearth and home parent to the non-harth and one parent.

00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:02.000

All those skills, right? All those skills and talent it's a little bit like a download.

00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:07.000

I will have a parents say to me. Well, he's never even packed Madeleine's lunch.

00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:17.000

He doesn't even Know what he likes and so he packs her this stupid lunch, and it comes home because she comes home to me on Wednesdays, and she hasn't touched the thing, I mean what kind of parent

00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:24.000

is that, and I and I look at the parent who's exclaiming, This you know, absolute outrage, and I'm saying so.

00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:32.000

Have you suggested that you'd be willing to write a list of the things that Madeline really prefers in her lunch.

00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:38.000

I know Nan is only 6 so we're not necessarily relying on Madeline right? but she's not quite ready.

00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:45.000

She's not 12 yet, and she looks at me like why would I do that?

00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:51.000

Why would I help him right? Why would I help him? He better figure it out, And I look.

00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:58.000

And I say, hold the phone. Who is this about? Is this about Madeline?

00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:05.000

Do you want her to have a healthy lunch sent to school on Wednesday, asking that she will eat and enjoy?

00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:11.000

And if he just simply doesn't know what that is what do you think about what do you think about saying, hey?

00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:17.000

You know she really likes Goker. right now. and she's really got a thing for peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:25.000

Leave out the ham. It was a great idea but she's not a big meat eater at the moment, just to him.

00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:37.000

He has capacity. He may not have all the information but he's certainly capable because we've got to remember.

00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:44.000

This isn't about exposing another parent's weakness Yeah, this is about helping each other.

00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:49.000

Be the best parent you can be for our child, helping each other.

00:47:49.000 --> 00:48:02.000

Be the best parent that you can be, for our child you know it just when you were. you know I was putting myself like i'm that parent you're working with, and i'm you know he should be able to figure out his own and

00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:07.000

this what came i'm in my head because i'm worried if I help him.

00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:14.000

The Madeline is gonna like him better than me that's what i'm worried about you.

00:48:14.000 --> 00:48:23.000

Go the male will love me any less he's mamma's gonna love him more than malin loves me, and I don't want that to happen because the home is breaking up the family's breaking up and all i've

00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:34.000

got is my child. Wow! wow! that's exactly right that's exactly right there.

00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:41.000

And so there, we're sitting we're sitting together in co-parent coaching, and that wells, up, and you offer that vulnerability.

00:48:41.000 --> 00:49:01.000

You just come out with that, and then I look at you, And I say Madeline is fired in every cell of her being for you, her one and only mama, and that it gives you right.

00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:10.000

Yes, yeah. So the gatekeeping again comes out of separation anxiety and fear and loss.

00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:19.000

It doesn't come out of real real reasons because most of the time Both parents have basic capacity.

00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:25.000

They may need information, but they have basic capacity to learn what they need to learn to be good enough.

00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:31.000

Parents the end that's what I love about your book because it really kind of just that thinking.

00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:36.000

And with the example, How can I move past? this how can I move past this fear that I'm having and why?

00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:42.000

Because ultimately I want to be the best parent that we can both be for Madeleine.

00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:55.000

And now now, as i'm pulling myself together, and wiping the tears from my eyes, I want to I wanted to switch gears because you gave a really good example in the book going back to spouse centered mine versus parent

00:49:55.000 --> 00:50:01.000

centered line, and I can't remember the name so we'll just, you know again, just going back to maybe

00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:07.000

The husband a wife an example where the wife have bought herself a sports car, right?

00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:19.000

They're divorced by herself with sports car wanted to treat herself and husband was so mad because here he's focused on the the child's extra extracurricular activities.

00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:26.000

And so how can the wife buy yourself a sports car but Yet she doesn't want to contribute or help out with extra curricular activities?

00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:35.000

And you gave this really good example that of course I don't know how to say it about how to help them move from spouse intermind appearance in their mind.

00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:40.000

Right right, and at the end of the day that's just such a great example. and Aren't we used to it being in the other direction.

00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:52.000

Right. Mom is the one He's not even buying her special face creams anymore to support those extra correct doctor and Dads offline the gold chains in the sports car. I make a point of trying to change up those examples because we all do

00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:59.000

it. We all do it in our own small ways. We make decisions about how we spend our money and how we support our kids.

00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:03.000

Right. Those are decisions that each adult will make on their own.

00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:17.000

And when we, as co-parents as co-parents, begin to judge each other's decisions, When we begin to judge each other's decisions, right, we bring judgment into it, right.

00:51:17.000 --> 00:51:26.000

Then we introduce a lot of negativity and conflict into our co-parenting relationship.

00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:40.000

So if I buy a sports car and that's how I want to spend my discretionary funds, we need to sit down and talk about, does it make sense for tighter to continue or Madeline to continue and select

00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:47.000

soccer, which is far more expensive than if she plays soccer at school.

00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:59.000

Now she's at an age where she can go out for the girls soccer team at the high school, or in the Middle school, or whatever the But those are conversations we need to have as parents about our children as opposed to going

00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:11.000

back up into that former spouse mind and begin judging each other, and criticizing and power struggling over how we think the other person should be living their life.

00:52:11.000 --> 00:52:19.000

It's no longer in our file it's not it's not ours to judge right right. right.

00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:33.000

So sometimes we just have to be graceful like. I just sat with 2 parents who a parenting pair, who were in a very big power struggle over equestrian writing lessons.

00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:40.000

Oh and right, and and one parent is willing to go into debt to afford a lease on a horse.

00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:48.000

And the other parent is saying, Absolutely not yeah so there's a lot of judgment about.

00:52:48.000 --> 00:53:00.000

If you wanted. what was our best interest of our child and i'm willing to i'm willing to do all these things to make this happen, and you are not so notice that's those aren't parenting qualities those are

00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:13.000

competitive Judgmental, right you're with me competitive judgmental right, because competitive and judgmental i'm the better parent, I'm the one who cares more it's like Okay, First of all let's

00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:16.000

just start with nonsense. All of that is nonsense.

00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:23.000

You care differently. You valued different things right definitely value to different things.

00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:27.000

They care about different things. They want to participate in their child's life in a different way.

00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:34.000

All of that's fair game? no what would be important is that if not that, then what so?

00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:37.000

If not equestrian writing lessons which for all the parents who are listening.

00:53:37.000 --> 00:53:44.000

You know That's an exorbitantly expensive sport, I can't imagine some people some people can afford it, but you know that's neither.

00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:57.000

You're there and it's wonderful when kids get to do that So if she's just going to do regular writing lessons, and then we're gonna do some piano lessons, and we're gonna do some athletic maybe we're

00:53:57.000 --> 00:54:02.000

gonna do Girls rock Little Rock climbing every day every week for a day.

00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:13.000

That's what we need to figure out that's what we need to be talking about when we have a nine-year-old, we don't need to be in a bunch of thousands of dollars spent on dispute resolution

00:54:13.000 --> 00:54:20.000

arbitration on whether we should have a nine-year-old with a horse lease.

00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:30.000

You know what, and that's brings a really good important point because you know, maybe maybe as a parent, I grew up, and I played the guitar. so I don't want to spend all my money on these a question.

00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:34.000

Writing lessons. I want to spend money, so my child can learn how to play the guitar.

00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:43.000

Right. Why can't we work together and we may have to which means that we may sub-optimize everything?

00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:52.000

We might have dreamed was going to happen in order to Let what each of us values to be part of our child's life.

00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:57.000

Okay, So we're going to bring in the music. lessons we'll keep some writing lessons in there.

00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:02.000

Maybe We're going to do girls rock as Well, that's not the way I wanted it to be. that's not what I dreamed about.

00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:10.000

That's not what I think is best okay great work through your feelings, not let's step back.

00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:17.000

Let's let's take a we have a 9 year old who's doing writing lessons, taking guitar lessons and doing girls rock every week.

00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:32.000

How does that look? How does that look? a childhood for a nine-year-old pretty Darn lushes grantee darn lucky. right?

00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:47.000

So I'm yeah, I have to give up on my dream of my daughter being in the olympics, and the pressure in writing because i'm a co-parent i'm a co-parent for life Who knew that's what I was gonna have to give up when

00:55:47.000 --> 00:56:02.000

we got divorced so it's just a reminder that there is loss involved, and we need to be graceful about that, you know, in this area. It comes up often as you will know whether it's the lex sports or being able to be on a

00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:06.000

competitive cheerleading spot which is you know a $1,000 a month.

00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:10.000

It's like parents you know I was a competitive cheerleader.

00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:18.000

Even back in the day. Right? I was. Wow! Surely I was all that and a bag of chips.

00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:23.000

You know the fact of the matter is that my that first of all that was up.

00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:30.000

My Daughter's dream Yeah, So let's start with that Sometimes we've got to separate our dreams out from our children's dreams.

00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:35.000

I'm speaking to some of our dads about that too, i'm glad that you were a football. star.

00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:39.000

But you are, you know, Tler would rather play the violin so let's get on.

00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:45.000

Let's get on board with who taylor is not what your ego says.

00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:52.000

These are often conversations that we're having to have what what does your child need?

00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:56.000

Who is your child? How are we going to do this across 2 homes?

00:56:56.000 --> 00:57:04.000

What are your values? Yeah, how are we going to implement those in the best way possible for both of you?

00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:17.000

There's not going to be a winner in a loser there's going to be a vast way forward all of you, and I love that, because that's essentially what you're talking about in the co-parenting

00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:23.000

session trying to figure this out, And, Karen, I could just keep on talking to you for ever.

00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:29.000

I want to be respectful of your time, Bill. Thank you so much for peering on the Akiona.

00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:37.000

Law podcasting Warren. We talk about all things related to or intersect with family law, intersect with family all divorce.

00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:41.000

Once again I've got Karen Banell co-parenting Coach Karen.

00:57:41.000 --> 00:57:44.000

How can people get a hold of you if they want to get in touch with you?

00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:50.000

Yeah. and you know, just they can just Google me karen Bonnell. They can Google coach mediate consult.

00:57:50.000 --> 00:58:00.000

It's all one word Coach mediate consult Yeah, it's it's easy coach Karen and Kirkland honestly remember Kirkland costco and coach karen and you got

00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:11.000

me because that's what's, going, to come up if you Google, that and your books are all available and hands on Amazon. I just want your book and kindle, and which I love because I can highlight in yellow and I bookmark the parts you know

00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:17.000

that are practically every other page is bookmarked, but also on downloading.

00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:21.000

Unlike him to get you on the books for downloading on auto. You said, Right?

00:58:21.000 --> 00:58:35.000

Yeah, both. The first edition of the Co-parents Handbook is on audible, and then the new the New Step Family handbook from dating to getting serious to forming a blended family is now unaudible since

00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:41.000

January so very excited about that think the key thing you'd like to say about the step family handbook.

00:58:41.000 --> 00:58:50.000

If I might just make a little add Yes, that book was really written with the intention for any parent or anyone dating, or anyone who wants to.

00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:56.000

Data parent. It really starts in the dating phase. although the title is the Step Family Handbook.

00:58:56.000 --> 00:59:07.000

You might say, Well, I'm not talking about a step family. I just met this person, and i'm just dating I don't want them to think I'm running to the finish line I just want to say to listeners Please know that that was written with

00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:14.000

the intention that the minute you're thinking about dating as a parent, or if you're thinking about dating a parent, that's the place to pick.

00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:26.000

That's when to pick up the book and if if god's willing, and the creek doesn't rise and your hearts are meant to spend the rest of your life together, then the part about blended family the that's there, for

00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:30.000

you too. Okay, but it's really about all that other stuff, too.

00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:36.000

So so I hope you folks are listening to that if you have separated or delicious.

00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:41.000

Say your divorce and you're thinking about dating again. Please please pick up that step.

00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:47.000

Family handbook, because it's going to talk about How you go about introducing the this new partner.

00:59:47.000 --> 00:59:52.000

This new love interest to your children, and also being respectful of your Yeah.

00:59:52.000 --> 00:59:54.000

The co-parent. Thank you. The co-pair and Karen.

00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:58.000

We have to get you back on the shells, and we can talk about that.

00:59:58.000 --> 01:00:06.000

Oh, gosh! so, Karen! any any final thoughts before you leave us.

01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:18.000

Oh, first of all, thank you so much for having me, and that, you know, I think the most important final thought is just remembering that kids do really thrive in a two-home family with 2 good enough.

01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:28.000

Parents, and what's going to be important is that it matters more to you to provide a safe and secure to home family for your children.

01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:36.000

Then it matters to fight about every single little piece of conflict that you have an opportunity to fight over.

01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:40.000

So rather than fighting over parental rights, I have a right to.

01:00:40.000 --> 01:00:50.000

I would encourage you to fight together for what's right for your kids, which is stable secure too home family.

01:00:50.000 --> 01:01:11.000

Both parents engaged. Oh, by the way, I just want to mention co-parenting does not require you to be friends. Just fair go. Parenting requires you to be civil and respectful, and to follow the skills that's right end little bit and you can

01:01:11.000 --> 01:01:14.000

get Karen again. go to coach, mediate.

01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:20.000

Come home. coach media console com and karen also has a Youtube channel that's right.

01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:26.000

So there's lots of great videos and yeah all kinds of stuff that's there to help.

01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:29.000

Thank you so much, Karen, and to my listeners out there.

01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:41.000

Thank you for joining for another episode of the optional law podcast until until we meet again.