013 - How Being a Child of Divorce, Shaped My Approach to Family Law with Divorce & Family Law Attorney, Nathan Cliber

In today’s episode, I welcome back family law attorney, Nathan Cliber. He shares how his parents’ divorce when he was a teenager impacts the way he approaches divorce & family law and his clients. 

Transcript

00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:54.000

Hi. Welcome to the family law and divorce podcast called Akiona on the law, we're in we talk about all things and intersect with family law and divorce. I'm Lani Akiona and today I have joining with me again repeat guests, family law and divorce Seattle

00:00:54.000 --> 00:01:00.000

based attorney Nathan Cliber. Hey there, how's it going Lani Good to be here.

00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:06.000

Thank you for joining us. Thank you for coming back again Nathan I really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for inviting me.

00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:26.000

Yeah you know i, you and I always have great stories that that we can talk about off subject. And, you know, one thing that I had talked to you about the first time that we did our podcast was about how we, our own personal experiences, shaped, not only

00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:44.000

maybe what area of law we do but also how we approach our practices such as family law divorce. And you and I were talking about how when you're younger child, I believe you're a teenager and watching your parents go through a divorce and how that kind

00:01:44.000 --> 00:02:06.000

of determine how you approach your family law and divorce cases now. Can Can you talk to us about that and very quickly what law firm Do you work out again and do it with Seattle divorce services in Seattle in the neighborhood of Seattle, it's been the

00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:07.000

Yeah.

00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:22.000

Yeah. And, and you've been doing family law for for how long now I you know I just realized this morning I was like it's been about 13 years, give or take, which is to keep on thinking of it as being about 10 but then it's weird it, that number keeps

00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:24.000

on increasing.

00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:30.000

You know almost every year. So,

00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:45.000

yeah, I think it's just the the pandemic has sort of created as a strange telescoping of time I like the distortion, I still like a lot of people and kind of thinking of it as March of 2020 because I can't really believe what's happened in almost two

00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:47.000

years since.

00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:55.000

Yeah me too I totally get, I can like we it's almost at the end of January 22 I still feel like Gavin like this, this Limbo stage.

00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:59.000

But you know for sure so tell it tell me about.

00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:16.000

So again you were you were a teenager when your parents are going through their own divorce. Yeah, I was, I was 16 when they formally started, though, I mean, and this is this is maybe like the first worthwhile point is

00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:18.000

like my parents.

00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:31.000

I won't say they hated each other but they it sure looked that way at the time for years leading up to it right so by the time I was 16. I was sitting on probably most of my life at that point.

00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:43.000

Knowing for completely sure that my parents didn't like each other didn't get along have had very little positive, or you know positivity or affection between them.

00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:48.000

So when it when it actually when they decided to pull the trigger on it when I was 16.

00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:52.000

It was a relief.

00:03:52.000 --> 00:04:10.000

What followed was awful but the actual notion like oh my god I don't have to listen to them fighting, I don't have to listen to them going at each other I can't don't have to deal with their, their conflict, you know witness it constantly every day.

00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:20.000

And I think I think about that a lot. When I'm talking to my clients. And if you at any point if you want to shift topics are asking other questions, feel free to interrupt me.

00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:23.000

But

00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:27.000

your parents divorce was not amicable.

00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:35.000

No, no, I don't know, I gosh I don't know if you ran into copyright problems but if you seen the movie War of the Roses are you familiar with that film.

00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:49.000

Yes, I am familiar that film. It was like that but with like, no money we live in a mobile home at the time so it was like the War of the Roses but they didn't even have the money to fight over it was all all about the kids like it was a pitcher for sure.

00:04:49.000 --> 00:05:00.000

Yeah. Yeah, and I mean there was no chandelier for anybody to, you know, be swinging from or what nice long time since I've seen the film but there was a, an unintentional.

00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:12.000

So we say automobile on pedestrian collision at one point in my in my parents divorce process it was, it was ugly. This they're going very slow, very slow automobile collision.

00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:22.000

Okay, well so like again I you know that's that's such a contested situation, and I can imagine.

00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:32.000

There's some, you know, I mean we, there's some trauma that kind of lingers from watching that to people you love, not getting along in that constant conflict and impression you.

00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:36.000

So, moving forward like here you are now.

00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:38.000

You're a grown adult.

00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:50.000

How does that impact, trying to be in it trying to we're trying to build as best we can. How did that impact how you approach your family law divorce cases how you take that experiment country your clients.

00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:52.000

Right.

00:05:52.000 --> 00:06:07.000

Well I think I think we touched on this last time is don't go into too much, it is why I went into family law in the first place right and and, or at least is what sort of made the foundation for my, my interest in it.

00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:23.000

I had I had watched what was going on with my siblings, especially my little brother had a lot of six years younger than me so he was a pretty vulnerable spot when they were, excuse me, when the divorce itself actually started going through.

00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:34.000

And so I wanted to work with families and kids and I was going to be a social worker and then that shifted to deciding I wanted to be a lawyer working with families and kids and, you know, here I am.

00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:36.000

In terms of, sorry, go ahead.

00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:43.000

No, right, go ahead. Oh, um, in terms of my actual practice, you know the the.

00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:59.000

Well actually I mean, one of the first things that it one of the major and primary effects that it has I would say, on my practice, style and sort of approach comes in and how I talked to people who are still like on the fence, then we get a lot of clients

00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:12.000

and I'm assuming you have the same thing other clients and who are thinking about divorce, thinking that they want a divorce but unsure about whether they want to move forward with it and wanting to kind of know what it will be like.

00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:29.000

And one of the things people worried about the most and reasonably and rightly so is what's the effect this is going to have on the kids. Well, it's just going to be like for the kids, and I'm able to say, you know, from firsthand from firsthand experience.

00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:46.000

It can be really awful for the kids, the divorce process can be awful. But the my, and I try not to do make it too much about my personal experience but sometimes this helps to just tell them this like kids aren't unaware that the problems are there.

00:07:46.000 --> 00:08:04.000

No matter how much I think the parents are trying to keep them shielded and most parents do to some degree, but kids aren't dumb are really observant and their heed to their parents and that conflict is, is, is known to them on on on some level, at least

00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:09.000

and it. Even if the divorce process is awful.

00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:12.000

The likelihood in my mind and I'm gonna I'm not a child.

00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:30.000

Well being specialist I'm not a mental health professional of any kind, right I'm speaking from personal experience only you know but anecdotally, the in the bigger picture if the conflict is bad enough, between the parents that a divorce needs to happen.

00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:44.000

And beyond that bad enough that the divorce is going to be ugly because the level of conflict between two people and their ability to resolve it as, you know, the major factor probably the primary factor in both pieces of that puzzle right whether the

00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:49.000

when the marriage is ending and what the character and tone of the divorce looks like.

00:08:49.000 --> 00:09:07.000

However, bad the conflict is having a way for it to end. It's more important, I think, then shielding them from the dangers of divorce, most of the time the kids are probably going to be better off, you know with with conflict that can be eventually,

00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:15.000

if not resolved, at least, limited and walked away from the spend some time out of that conflict.

00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:25.000

So I talked to people a lot about that how their kids probably already know there's something wrong, and knowing that there's something happening might actually make them feel better rather than worse.

00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:36.000

And a lot of ways, you know, it's kind of funny because, like, just touching upon what you're saying how kids know when their parents are getting along like I've had my kids.

00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:53.000

I've been married, we help what what year me now I, I've been married like going I've been married for 21 years and my kids are, you know, 14 right now two boys and I've had my kids, asked me, are you and dad going to get divorced, because we're fighting

00:09:53.000 --> 00:10:01.000

right we hate we gave him conflict. We think the kids can't hear us but they can and.

00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:03.000

And it just it just kind of blows my mind.

00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:15.000

And you know, sometimes they say these things because they you know they they've had friends at the time going through divorce and I'm not talking about somebody like right now it's, it's maybe something that happened maybe two years ago or things like

00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:28.000

that and it's just because they're younger and they don't really understand maybe they've had friends where their parents are going through divorces, they see May, me and my spouse fighting my husband fighting they're like are you guys going to get divorce.

00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.000

And I have to tell the kids.

00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:46.000

We're going to fight and. And I'm sorry you hear that and you know I'm sorry for not being a better person and maybe being reactive sometimes to the thousands of responses, but it's it's really challenging when your kids come into you and you just have

00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:50.000

to say no sorry we're just waiting waiting we're not getting along right now.

00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:52.000

We're going to get worse.

00:10:52.000 --> 00:11:03.000

Yeah, no I mean yeah they they're really sensitive. Most kids are really sensitive to it I think and so I think that people's fears are often not unreasonable but a little misplaced because it.

00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:06.000

The damage is happening already.

00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:17.000

Yeah, I think, yeah and and I can also I can definitely hear sometimes kids, I get when kids are like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sick and tired of fighting. You guys need to do something about it.

00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:28.000

You guys need to do something about it. So, but I have a question for you It's okay, you know, knowing this right just based on your own experience and things like that.

00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:38.000

When you're working with, with someone that you're representing, and you can kind of see the conflict. Kind of going on with their their spouse, and you know it's affecting the kids.

00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:46.000

Do you ever have you ever say like, hey, you've got it, this conflict has got to be ratcheted down.

00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:55.000

I mean I try to do I do try to find ways to make it depends on the client right I how to approach the current some people I can just say I definitely have had wonderful clients that I can just say to them.

00:11:55.000 --> 00:12:08.000

Knock it off. You're too much you got you got it you gotta chill out, because you're doing you're doing harm here. And I'm not talking about harm to the other party that's honestly relevant to get that also affects the kids, but I mean just the degree

00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:26.000

of conflict in the divorce and I mean there's no way we can possibly say this enough I think as professionals, is that the conflict of itself is harmful and at the risk of the risk of maybe getting a little too personal with as you can edit it out if

00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:38.000

it's if you think it's too much, one of the, one of my big takeaways from my parents Divorce, Divorce Process and the thing that I really tried to help my clients, navigate.

00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:44.000

They got along so far. The divorce was so ugly and so dark and so violent and aggressive.

00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:46.000

Take the divorce you remember.

00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:50.000

I think it was, it was at least two maybe three years.

00:12:50.000 --> 00:13:03.000

It was really appropriate attracted to, because most divorces I mean I don't know, six nine months is what I usually tell people usually about what it takes, unless it's unless it that type of high conflict, divorce and it shows three or chapter five

00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:09.000

pounds. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. people can really even find ways to fight.

00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:17.000

But I came away from the situation as as a young adult being totally convinced and I'm not yet convinced that I'm wrong.

00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:26.000

Not that my parents didn't love me because my parents both loved me tremendously, but I did develop a strong belief that they hated each other, more than they love to me.

00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:37.000

And that's and that's a painful thing to perceive and, and it's also not a thing that to say, I have found.

00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:54.000

Having made the mistake earlier in my practice. It's not the sort of thing to say quite so bluntly to clients, but I have definitely said to people talked about this being something they'd be careful of because the, the feeling that the parents are more

00:13:54.000 --> 00:14:08.000

interested in hurting each other than they are in helping the child supporting the child being loving towards the child, and that that prioritization, even no matter how much you love your kids if they perceive that it's more important to do harm to the

00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:10.000

other parent who, by the way.

00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:21.000

They love, one way or the other that kid loves that other parent right so no matter what the conflict between the parents is harming something and someone that the child cares about.

00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:33.000

Yeah. And and figuring out how to D prioritize the need to win the need to get one over on the other parent.

00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:42.000

It's hard but it's super important, it's maybe the most important thing to do in a divorce. And,

00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:51.000

you know, on a professional level is probably probably something that my boss wouldn't want me to say but sometimes that means choosing not to try to win.

00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:54.000

I mean sometimes that means choosing to lose.

00:14:54.000 --> 00:15:01.000

I've had a couple conversations with clients over the years that were like, why, why are you fighting this hard for this thing, because it's the right thing to do.

00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:17.000

I agree, it is the right thing to do. Absolutely, it's the right thing to do. You're right. You're absolutely right and I'm 100% behind you. But why are you fighting so hard to demonstrate it for whom, and that that conversation.

00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:22.000

Every once in a while I'll find somebody go oh my god, You're right, this is not.

00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:39.000

Yeah, this isn't worth it, like fighting for my, my 5050 parenting plan right it's not that I don't like a 5050 parenting plan but it's, it's, it doesn't help anybody if the parents are in lifelong conflict.

00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:55.000

The, sorry, the childhood long conflict right there sharing time equally but then the kid is dealing with them constantly fighting about that time and I've seen very good parents occasionally like let the other parent have more time because they're a

00:15:55.000 --> 00:16:00.000

good parent, and it's the conflict itself that's causing the problems and that's hard.

00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:03.000

I'm sorry. Yeah.

00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:16.000

That's hard. And going back to going back to what you said in terms of just the conflict and, you know, knowing that your parents want you but in a way they want it to hurt each other more.

00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:22.000

I can't imagine what your messages, is that it hurt.

00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:39.000

It hurts me as as your child to see you hurting this other parent, even though I know you love me, it's just that pain and that hurt is so hard, because like you're saying you love both parents equally,

00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:46.000

your parents, your parents now as individuals are with each other, and they talk to each other.

00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:54.000

No. No. Absolutely not, like, I have a daughter now I have a daughter, she's going to be turning five soon.

00:16:54.000 --> 00:17:10.000

And, like they and they both love their granddaughter, they're both great grandparents. They're both excellent grandparents they're not yet great grandparents, my child's only four, but they like.

00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:15.000

They have both been invited to to

00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:22.000

both of her birthdays that preceded the pandemic sorry I think we haven't invited him tomorrow, right, we haven't had birthdays,

00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:24.000

or there's not parties.

00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:36.000

They can't be at the same birthday party together for the grandkids up now. No way. They can't like my niece. My sister has got a couple of kids and my niece, and a dance recital.

00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:56.000

And they did both try to come to that and it was like it was, it was a disaster. It was, it was a publicly humiliating disaster like these, these people cannot know, and I want to say and I don't want to, I should say, it just in case they watch this,

00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:20.000

that it is really one of them is ready to be done with the fighting. One of them and I don't want to name names I don't wanna, I don't want to humiliate anybody like one of them is

00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:26.000

And the other parent is less forgiving sort and that's round and round we go.

00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:36.000

Well I mean how does that. How does that make you feel like hearing or hearing your Adele and you're like, Come on people you still can't get along, or just accept it and just let it go.

00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:49.000

Um, depends on the day I at this point I mean, at this point, you know, I'm about to be 43 years old, you know, and so it's it's been a while. Right.

00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:53.000

Like, this is too personal. That's okay. It's okay.

00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:55.000

Another question or is this the same.

00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:58.000

No, this is like.

00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:02.000

I

00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:07.000

I'm almost 43 years old, and the,

00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:24.000

the ways that this affects me have decreased over time because, frankly, I have worked to just, you know, let it go, and don't like try not to let it be too much a part of my life, and more and more have realized that, you know, it's sad, but it's something

00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:42.000

that I've long come to accept that. I am not nearly as close with either of my parents, as I wouldn't probably have been if they could have put their own set aside enough to take care of their kids as a priority over fighting each other.

00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:45.000

And that

00:19:45.000 --> 00:20:05.000

that closeness that would have been possible for for me and frankly, my brother and sister to, it was, it was that opportunity was was lost, and I'm much closer as I've gotten older and they've mellowed and I believe it or not, this is the mellow me.

00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:19.000

It's a, it's a, you know, I'm much closer to both my parents than I was five years ago, before my daughter was born. And that's and that's relevant right because you don't know until you have kids what it's actually like to have kids and the ways that

00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:34.000

it is challenging and the ways that it tests and pushes and pressures you right and so I've been able to find a lot more compassion for some of the things that I found upsetting about, you know, my early life.

00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:45.000

You know, so there's there's there's there's always that but there is there's it's become more funny to me than anything else because both of my parents have long since realized that I'm not doing this with them.

00:20:45.000 --> 00:21:00.000

Absolutely just not doing it, and if they can't be at the same birthday party then cool, but I'm not, I'm not refereeing the situation that that time has passed, and so I get to laugh about it now and I think I have refused to take it very seriously for

00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:07.000

long enough that they are maybe starting to get over it.

00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:22.000

My parents got divorced when I was really young, I think I was like three or something like that and I remember my mom was dating my sister in a bathtub were a year and a half apart and I remember she was dating us, and she just broke down crying.

00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:30.000

And you know the younger I was like what's wrong Mommy, and I don't even think she remembers it

00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:47.000

She doesn't remember it but like you know I do and made an impression in my young little mind and it was tough because I I deal with I. I've dealt with dealing with abandonment issues from my parents divorced because we live in Hawaii.

00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:51.000

My dad ended up getting remarried.

00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:57.000

Had he moved away we call it in Hawaii, they, he moved away to the mainland.

00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:12.000

Amazingly moved California. And then he was Arizona he had two daughters and, you know, I kind of felt like, Well, there you go. He's got two daughters replaces other two daughters with me and I think I went through a really long time of just feeling

00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:26.000

of having hurt and resentment, because I basically felt abandoned and it chokes, you know, here I am I turned 50 last year and it basically took me when I got married.

00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:39.000

When I beat when I got married and I want it my dad to be there. I was 28 or 29, and I like how to let it go. I just had to let go of all that hurt, and I would really because if I want it to have relationship with my father.

00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.000

I knew I had to let it go.

00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:58.000

And I wanted him to get my wedding I wanted him to walk on my own I didn't want to carry on that baggage and shed. But yeah, it took some time and it, it took some honest conversations between me and my dad about how I felt in you know and and I get it

00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:09.000

now to where like you're talking about being a parent and I'm a parent and I realized. Now that you know she was doing the best that he could. In that time, under the circumstances.

00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:12.000

And if he could do it differently.

00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:16.000

So my dogs are going crazy.

00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:22.000

He could do it differently like he wouldn't he would usually the best it could at the time.

00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:27.000

It's hard and it's, and I get it and I always.

00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:31.000

I don't know where to go with this but

00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:46.000

let's switch gears if you know we're talking you just mentioned how you have a daughter in your daughters and in turn five. Very cute. And so how did becoming a parent, kind of changed the way you approach family law or affect your practice.

00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:47.000

Right.

00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:50.000

you know, and that's

00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:59.000

so much, it's a it's I was thinking about this before we came on today like how do I even articulate this change, because so much of it is.

00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:11.000

See, I'm a relatively new parent right I have one kid, I'm like I said I'm 43 years old and I have an almost five year old right so I'm starting this whole parent thing, late in life as these things are reckoned.

00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:15.000

And

00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:23.000

like you know I've been, I've been a lawyer for 12 years I said that already too right so most of my career is still before I had a kid.

00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:34.000

And so I was, you know, by and large, a functioning adult is holding down on you know a job for you know reasonable amount of time I was a professional Right.

00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:45.000

Right. In a lot of ways I wasn't grown up. There wasn't a grown up until I had a kid. and there's there's no, there's no way. This sounds so patronizing.

00:24:45.000 --> 00:25:00.000

You know the etymology of that word, you know, notwithstanding it just sounds so so catalyzing because, you know, if I were hearing this, when I heard this before I had a kid and somebody would say, you just can't understand until you have a kid.

00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:10.000

What it's like to have a kid what it's like to have a child of your own and it's and it's so true. But I got

00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:20.000

on parenting, before I had kids, and I was so judgmental, and then I become a parent, and all the things that I said oh I would never do that if I was apparent, I guess.

00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:35.000

I've managed to hold on a few of them a few of the ones I thought I'd never do, but it's like it's not even what I'm doing. It's the difficulty level is the, the, oh my god I did not expect x to be this difficult to behave in the way I feel like I should

00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:49.000

or to, you know, find the energy to engage with my you know my daughter's miraculous little magical being and I just adore her, and I don't I don't always want to pretend to be Disney characters for her entertainment.

00:25:49.000 --> 00:26:01.000

Right. And so, and then there's like that line of like how do I like set reasonable boundaries and also how do I deny her anything right

00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:16.000

and but the the biggest the biggest shift for me professionally I think has been learning, and I wasn't surprised that this was true, but it's still some air couldn't have understood until I was doing it.

00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:33.000

The, the two things that I think, becoming a parent is really shown me is that there is this entirely separate category of love this entirely different way of loving, something that you can get close to I think some people do with beloved pets, and other

00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:40.000

things but like having a child of your own is.

00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:43.000

It's a new kind of love that I hadn't.

00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:48.000

I only like touch that before right and like oh my gosh this and that.

00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:49.000

Good.

00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:59.000

was, yeah. Yeah, it is. It is and it's and it's it. I think for most people, it's automatically that way right is that starts that way.

00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:06.000

But there's also what comes with it is this new kind of fear. And that was the part that I let caught me off guard.

00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:08.000

Was this.

00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:13.000

I might get weepy about this. So, you know, forgive me.

00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:18.000

Let me I Kiana and her feelings show.

00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:24.000

I know it's like my kids, my daughter was born with a heart condition, we learned about it.

00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:33.000

She was like two days old, I think, and we took her and she's a little jaundiced no big deal, and the Jonas wasn't a big deal CF could you run around but she's fine just this and that, whatever.

00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:47.000

But while we were checking her out, we learned she has a heart condition, and she signed. She had surgery at four months old.

00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:52.000

But you know, I remember so clearly.

00:27:52.000 --> 00:28:08.000

Like You read about some people like receiving news that they, they feel faint right we feel the blood drain from their body, and they like pass out or fall down or need to sit down

00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:15.000

and I like you know, you read about this and it's conceptually something I got I'd never experienced it nothing close.

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:16.000

Wow.

00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:23.000

Sorry. Until that moment right and i did i like I

00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:28.000

had never experienced that kind of fear I try to remember that.

00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:35.000

Yeah, with my clients now and it's not again I don't think I was super insensitive before but I didn't get it.

00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:51.000

And all of a sudden so many of my clients that I spent you know, years practicing going like, just just, can you just please be reasonable about whatever it is right, and have a way better understanding now of why how difficult it is to be reasonable

00:28:51.000 --> 00:29:04.000

about your kids, because it's not a reasonable set of emotions, they're not supposed to easily be reasonable about your kids right that's not what will how humans are largely built.

00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:11.000

I think my kids are being threatened like I'm a complete cycle

00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:13.000

going reasonable.

00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:21.000

Right. Exactly and and understanding that has been huge. And,

00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:33.000

yeah, yeah, it's just easier to understand and relate to my clients and a lot of those sorts of levels but i think that's that's the big one in terms of my professional effect on my professional life.

00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:45.000

And so you said now you said your daughter's fine now she's healthy, oh yeah she's fine she had a heart surgery for months, and she, you know she takes her in every, every couple of years but there's every expectation that she's going to be fine.

00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:52.000

She's got a titanium laces in her breast plate and Teflon in her heart literally.

00:29:52.000 --> 00:30:04.000

Yeah, it's kind of. She's got to change it kept a new chest and a tough one heart, which I think it'd be entertaining for her when she's older she had a really cool scar it's gonna be great.

00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:07.000

Well I'm glad she's doing good things.

00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:09.000

Yeah.

00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:21.000

So in terms of, like, in terms of its I think what's hard with me in terms of my kids and stuff like I definitely understand when people are are going through the divorce process.

00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:35.000

And you know I emphasize when they have kids, and I understand I emphasize how tough it is trying to trying to do the right thing.

00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:37.000

And like you're saying it's hard. It's sometimes.

00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:47.000

Sometimes, maybe even though you want to be primary and maybe even the other parents didn't parent as good as you.

00:30:47.000 --> 00:31:01.000

Maybe it is worth sharing custody 5050, or you you deal with a situation where you have you have a mom with the primary parent and basically they struggle with dad isn't doing enough.

00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:12.000

Dad doesn't see the kids enough, or things like that and. And if you're to say well either there's really nothing we can do about that. We can't force dad to get involved.

00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:23.000

I know a turn the kids but you just, you know, gotta be there for the kids and and be encouraging and listen up the best that they can, and you know one thing I want it.

00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:30.000

Going back to about your parents, and, you know, because like I was because I was showing young.

00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:45.000

You know I didn't see them get divorced I was feeling more like they asked her, right, like, how, how do they get along and and things like that and one thing that I can say is that my mom never complained about my dad to me.

00:31:45.000 --> 00:32:01.000

She never talked bad about my dad. So in that sense, I was saved. Because my whatever how and of course you know when I got older, then I found that with each other things, you know, about why my mom was it said at my dad, one of them being he didn't

00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:01.000

want to reach out for things like that.

00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:14.000

reach out for things like that. And it's hard because here's my mom is a single mom, you know, raising two girls, we were, we were in private school and, you know when we go to high school we're in private school still but we got financial aid, but she

00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:23.000

never let us know how hard it was for her. And what my dad was not doing or anything like that.

00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:39.000

And she did her best to try and encourage the relationship with my dad so my relationship with my dad was not good. It was entirely because of what he was doing or not doing

00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:40.000

so.

00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:51.000

I, so it does it does affect what the other parent says about what we are you know what one parent says about the other person that does affect the kids, hugely, hugely.

00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:57.000

Absolutely. And it takes time. This is another thing I actually.

00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:07.000

Along the same lines that I think I am able to talk to clients about a little bit, because one of my parents, like I said before one of my parents is still holding on to a huge amount of anger although it's been it's been less.

00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:11.000

Definitely. In recent years,

00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:23.000

just good, but you know way longer than made any sense holding on to the anger and that like, hate, an act of hate and that parent really did.

00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:31.000

I don't think that they would look at it as intentional, but in sort of blurring that line right.

00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:45.000

The efforts to poison the relationship with the other parents, and they the efforts to one of my parents are both of them at first and really bad job of not talking trash about each other.

00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:56.000

But one of them just kept doing it and kept doing it kept doing it and I had a really bad relationship with the other parent, because it was the other one the one that I had a worse relationship that the parent that was the trash talker was the one that

00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:14.000

I was closer with before the divorce, and so I believed the trash talk, I adopted that and I spent years and years really like thinking very poorly and having a much less of a relationship with the, the other parent.

00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:19.000

Then I, I think that I otherwise would have.

00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:26.000

And this is something that parents worry about a lot and understandably so and another reasonably, right.

00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:41.000

And what I what I can also say to them is, you know, my personal experience at least has been that over the years, as my perspective has shifted as I've gotten older and understood the world better, I started, I started at some point realizing Whoa, what

00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:43.000

did.

00:34:43.000 --> 00:35:02.000

What did they actually do like what was the actual problem why was that one parent so angry at this other parent and when Why was it. Why was it so important that I dislike this other parents, and realizing that I was intentionally or not emotionally

00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:15.000

in furtherance of the angry or parents anger at the other, and that's created an interesting situation where

00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:20.000

the again It took it took longer than I think

00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:34.000

anybody would have liked, but that's sort of perspective perspective shift has done a lot to heal my relationship with with the wrong parent, and then rhetoric retroactively damaged my relationship with apparent that I was originally closer with because

00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:46.000

I was mad because I was like, you basically lying to me for years just just creating these conflicts that didn't need to be there and that was.

00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:58.000

That's what I talked about that a lot with people who are on the other side of it right who's like yeah but you know my x is talking trash about me and saying what a horrible mom or a horrible Dad I am right and and you know that's not right, I can say

00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:08.000

yeah it's not. And yeah, that sucks and yet absolutely is gonna affect your relationship with your kids and I'm not going to pretend it won't, but what I can say from personal experience is that over time.

00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:17.000

If you just kind of hold steady and try not to get into that

00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:19.000

negative.

00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:23.000

Yeah, not to exchange that negative energy, you're going to come out.

00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:42.000

The kids, turn to you one day and say and say, You were right. And, you know, my other parent was was outline and I'm sorry or, I appreciate you or whatever it is right that I really believe that reconciliation can and will tend to happen.

00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:47.000

But it's so hard for people whether in it, you know, and I don't, I don't know.

00:36:47.000 --> 00:37:01.000

I totally understand because I have a really good close friend who kind of experienced the same thing where they had the mom was basically trash talking to dad the whole entire time until the kids were aligning with mom.

00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:16.000

And then the kids got older, and as they got older, they basically said, Wait, wait a minute, dad isn't as bad as almost, making them out to be. That's actually pretty okay and why is mom trash talking dad so bad.

00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:31.000

So let me ask you this and maybe it's maybe this is your personal question, but like have you gone to the trash talking parent and basically say, like, hey, that wasn't cool, or it was if they continue to do it and you say, cut it out.

00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:33.000

I don't want to hear it more.

00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:42.000

Yes, the answer is, well, you know, I think to my own credit. This was 10 years ago now.

00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:55.000

10 or 11 years ago now, when it like, you know, my early 30s and and I was really abruptly I remember what happened something happened that made me go.

00:37:55.000 --> 00:38:14.000

Wait a minute. And I confronted I confronted the the trash talker about it and was like, and I tried to approach it not from a from a like, what was the actual deal, right, like what you were so angry, you're still so angry Why on earth.

00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:30.000

Why on earth, were you so England what what happened. Do you like I wanted to give, give them the benefit of the doubt really trying to avoid identifying which of them is just for their for their own sakes, but you know I wanted to give them the benefit

00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:38.000

of the doubt that there was some reason, there was a rationale for that I just didn't see because I was you know still a kid as far as it went, or that they didn't want to share.

00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:48.000

And I expected to be rebuffed but it was worse than it was.

00:38:48.000 --> 00:39:10.000

They. Well, they explained things in a way that I can look at and say now. I think they believed what they were saying, Oh, but it was, it was some real dark allegations without any concrete foundation at all.

00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:26.000

It was sort of like, you know, well I felt like the other parent was doing this and that and the other. And you know, really pretty dark stuff and I ended up talking to my siblings and whatnot and you know one of my siblings still doesn't have a relationship

00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:30.000

with the parent who was the recipient of the trash talking right.

00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:43.000

But even even he was like, more, I mean, gosh, I hate him by I you know I hate, I hate that parents so much. I wouldn't I wouldn't I wouldn't have trouble believing that.

00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:56.000

But no, I never saw anything like that I never experienced anything like that, talk to friends of the family, like nobody, the trash talking parrot was literally the only human being who believe that these things were going on.

00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:07.000

Yeah, and we've, we've dealt with it. we've had clients way back to like this is their story and it's the it's the only, they're the only person who has that story and what do you do because that's your truth.

00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:23.000

So that's what you found that with your trash talking parents. That's very true, which which simultaneously made things harder because is like I can't, I can't live in that world with with with them right and that's not that's not the world that I have

00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:27.000

it or anybody else really that I know, but at the same time.

00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:45.000

I don't, I don't think there's actual intentional deception or malice there like NEMA towards me anyway. I don't think that there and if and if those beliefs, is one of the things right where if what they believed were true, and still not wouldn't say

00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:56.000

they handled their anger and upset well, but the degree of it would make sense when it actually makes sense, it's just, it's not apparently, or in any way and I didn't disregarded out of hand.

00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:05.000

I tried to like do reasonable inquiry into the allegedly affected parties, and nobody.

00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:13.000

Yeah, anyway so you know it's hard to hold somebody responsible for something that they believe.

00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:22.000

I felt like such a lawyer I lawyerly thing to say I tried to do a reasonable inquiry of the legit legit eventually.

00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:36.000

Yeah, okay, that's fair. What's, what's funny is that I probably would have said it more or less that way before I was so lucky, which my family would also probably corroborate.

00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:41.000

Yeah, so it's it's weird. It's weird right because you've got, you know, back to what you said though.

00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:51.000

Most parents really are I think doing their best, doing the best they know how I'm doing the best they can, and it's easy.

00:41:51.000 --> 00:42:08.000

You know, in hindsight, to take apart somebody's behaviors and you know, it's easy when you're suffering through their, their trauma that they're carrying around which is you know so often what it actually is right like it's something happened to them

00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:21.000

when they were a kid, then, and then they so they perceive that danger again or that risk or they live in fear of it and it gets expressed, you know with them and their kids and you know generational trauma is real.

00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:29.000

But to plug Disney's and condo if you haven't seen it by the way it's just a fantastic. I loved it. Yeah.

00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:31.000

So good.

00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:41.000

I'm so mad at my husband because he can't like our give me subscription ends in June and account for that. I'm like dude What are you doing, no.

00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:50.000

I know the divorce attorney if you need one I'm just saying, I'm a like we use like we don't watch his name like yes we do do there's like, there's Marvel.

00:42:50.000 --> 00:43:02.000

I'm like, we got it I'm like, I'm like, I gotta carry this back out try to call them and be like hey what's your next deal because I'm not canceling does I'm sorry So how many times have you watched and castle.

00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:16.000

I've only watched the in canto film, all the way through twice, but my daughter is very into it and you know how it is with preschool aged kids. So I've listened to the soundtrack.

00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:28.000

Boy, I don't, I don't think. Definitely more times than my daughter could count and she's she's a pretty smart kid it's I've probably gone through the entire soundtrack, 20 or 30 times, like, start to finish and and we only watch it for the I should say

00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:34.000

we've only watched the first time, like we like two weeks ago, it's it's in here.

00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:35.000

Yeah.

00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:47.000

But it's so good It's so good if this makes it to the podcast will say you know it for in terms of talking about family trauma and working through a family trauma and generational trauma right.

00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:54.000

No, yeah, I'm like I was thinking myself I gotta watch uncountable again man, that was some deep stuff going on.

00:43:54.000 --> 00:44:05.000

Yeah. The second was really good and I've gotten, maybe a little bit of a problem have gotten into like the Twitter threads reading about analysis and articles and stuff.

00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:11.000

generational trauma. Yes, Mr.

00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:12.000

Graham grandmother.

00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:14.000

Yeah.

00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:18.000

Oh, okay.

00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:34.000

Yeah, no, no, I mean like we do we carry around our trauma that affects our entire relationship now and, you know, even the divorce process now and like we you touched upon it a big thing with your daughters, that fear is really that fear the fear I'm

00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:44.000

going to lose my, and you know, aside from losing your, and we're not talking about legitimate fears with edge, such as child abuse or, or domestic violence, and we're not talking about that.

00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:51.000

We're talking about the fear of others my kids, for just the fear of the unknown.

00:44:51.000 --> 00:44:56.000

That's That's tough.

00:44:56.000 --> 00:44:59.000

Yeah.

00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:14.000

And it's hard any but just it's hard to because it's just kind of like I tried to take my own personal experience that you know I went through in terms of my parents divorced and, you know, doing this, you know, my mom had primary, we would see her dad

00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:25.000

on the weekend. Or, and I and I so look forward to, to that time with my dad and, you know, it's all like my dad and if he does

00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:33.000

no hidden fees equivalent my mom. My mom we spend all day at the beach I think my dad like gave a truth and a bag of like pretzel rods.

00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:47.000

I don't remember, but at the same time it was so fun and it was so cool and like we came back and like we're completely sunburn. And everywhere and I'm sure my mom like, Oh my gosh, my kids like what a mess it has been burned they are but you know what,

00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:49.000

We had a great time.

00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:59.000

You know, that's another thing. Another thing I think that it's good to remind clients of sometimes, but a lot of the time honestly is the kids.

00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:13.000

You're not wrong, that, you know, the other parent needs to be dressing the kid warmer, you're probably right. You're probably right that that you know he or she should be feeding the kid more or or, you know, playing less video games with the kid or

00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:20.000

whatever but I tell you what the kids going to remember, the kids going to remember the day at the beach, they're not going to remember the sunburn, or at least they're not gonna be traumatized by the sunburn.

00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:31.000

They're going to remember that really great day they had with that they're going to remember, not how hungry, they were at the end of the day, right they're going to remember how delicious the the the watermelon was that was going to whatever it wasn't

00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:44.000

that the beach right like they're going to remember playing Minecraft with their dad, all day and that's going to be a good memory right and and I do try to a lot of the times I talk about,

00:46:44.000 --> 00:47:00.000

try to help people see how even if they're right again this the beer right and the importance of being right or two different things right and the, even if they're right that the other parent would probably be better would be better if they did something

00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:12.000

differently. That what the kids what the kids. Why think what kids mostly wants just they just want to be loved and have people pay attention and have people enjoy their time with them.

00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:18.000

And what you're doing with the kids. I think matters less than people think it should.

00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:24.000

I agree and in terms of food I remember one time My dad said my sister and I cereal for dinner.

00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:31.000

And I remember like I'm hungry, I'm hungry I hear guy talking pure I remember thinking to for dinner breakfast for dinner.

00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:34.000

Okay, cool. Right.

00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:35.000

Right.

00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:47.000

Now and then let's also say that the you know parents should be let off the hook for, you know, nutrition, or like, you know, health, a I don't want I don't want to come off because it's so often it's so awesome the dads right we're like, let's be honest,

00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:58.000

it's so often that that's not always by any means but most of the time when this dynamic occurs, there's the one parent it's like the kids need to be cared for this way and the other parent isn't doing it that way.

00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:13.000

This one, that, then more often than not, and you know I can spend a lot of time critiquing our culture for, you know, that situation being the sort of starting point the families are also up and working from.

00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:28.000

And so I also don't want to be dismissive of all the moms out there that are working their asses off in so many ways, and and and all the pressure that we put on on moms in particular

00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:39.000

to like to like mind those things tend these things make sure the kids eating enough vegetables and make sure the kid is not spending too much time on the TVs and whatnot and so often it seems like it's the dads that are more permissive around that stuff

00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:47.000

that finally let up on my control about my kids have to eat vegetables every night. I finally like really fast.

00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:47.000

Feel how does that feel to not be worrying about that anymore.

00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:50.000

How's that feel to not be worrying about that anymore.

00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:53.000

It's

00:48:53.000 --> 00:49:01.000

your vegetables, but I'm like, I'm, you know I'm like I'm too tired Are you working to make it and I'm like a.

00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:03.000

Yeah.

00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:21.000

Yeah, I don't want to come off like I don't think that's important, only that the. Gosh, everything is so it's so easy to sound patronizing I think that towards you, I hope, but sort of generally like the old saying, you know God gives me the

00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:27.000

grace to accept the things I cannot change the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:39.000

The Serenity Prayer or whatever it is, which is you know whether was of a religious bent or not, I think, super good life advice right or guidance, because we can't change all the other parents going to do stuff.

00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:54.000

We just can't, it's beyond our control and trying to think of it in terms of what is the actual acute effect on the child, right, if you're taking the child in a snowstorm and shorts in a short sleeve shirt, real problem.

00:49:54.000 --> 00:50:00.000

But you know, if they skipped vegetables a couple nights a week, they're probably going to be fine.

00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:02.000

Yeah, they're going to be fine.

00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:05.000

You know what I'm reading this book by this.

00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:11.000

Don Miguel Ruiz, he wrote the Four Agreements.

00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:25.000

Yeah, I need some reading I read that book travelers book by the way, don't take things personally don't make assumptions, always do your best, have integrity with your word and I think if someone did I say them all but anyway reading his other book he

00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:38.000

did how to do it like love right. And he was basically saying how, you know, most needed. Aside from the dreams and we're. Anyway, fear, one of the options.

00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:50.000

That's one of the shred you have love and fear and love isn't critical fear is critical. love doesn't have expectations or obligations and fear does, and, you know, when I think about it.

00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:58.000

We're soldier run by fear, even with in terms of the kids vegetables is it going to hurt the kids. If out of the seven day week beat vegetable three times.

00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:05.000

No, but when it comes down to is just disappear. I might you know want my kids to be healthy and want my kids to be phase.

00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:19.000

And, yeah, it's just reading that book it just kind of, you know, makes me kind of think about the things that I do. And my relationships and how much our reactions and thoughts and promises.

00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:27.000

Not, not promises but in reality reactions are driven by fear. Yeah.

00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:30.000

Yeah.

00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:37.000

So that's I think that's a good place to end.

00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:40.000

I mean we could talk forever about this kind of stuff.

00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:48.000

Yeah, I mean I could talk to you forever, probably just about any subject Lani I love chatting with you I love being here.

00:51:48.000 --> 00:52:07.000

And so, just as a, just as a brief recap here, we were, we were talking about how life experiences affect us as family law Divorce Attorneys, and how divorce processes affect kids basically they share their own personal divorces that we've experienced,

00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:20.000

you go into the midst of a contested divorce and me. During that afterwards, that, that, that the schedule, you know, having that every other weekend parents, and like that.

00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:24.000

Sure, sure, great talking about that subject with you, Nathan and.

00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:34.000

And again, if people want to get ahold of you. Anything clever at Seattle divorce services and located in Seattle, Washington, how can they get ahold of you.

00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:37.000

Well, you can go to our website at.

00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:42.000

This is an easy one www dot Seattle door services. com.

00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:46.000

You can give us a call at. I'm going to get this wrong.

00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:52.000

I want them on the spot I always forget my phone number. It's 206-784-3049.

00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:58.000

And you can also Google me, Nathan fiber and I'll show up.

00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:04.000

You know as an attorney a divorce attorney in Seattle, Washington and

00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:10.000

we're real busy right now but we always welcome calls for new prospective clients and you know I like to help when I can.

00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:21.000

Yeah, and we'll make sure to put the link to your firm when, when this comes out too. And my question to you just discipline fat. What was your first job.

00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:42.000

My first job. My first on the record job, my first formal like legal job, because you know, I grew up rural so like even if you're like a teenager, like I said, I was, I was, I was 16, actually, a lot happened when I was 16 actually maybe 15.

00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:46.000

I don't remember no 16. I was I sold Tupperware.

00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:51.000

I got, oh yeah, oh yeah I got, I got looped in.

00:53:51.000 --> 00:54:08.000

I was, I was partly because my parents my home life was real rough right around that age I didn't spend much time at home. I got into theatre, a little bit before that so I was really popular among the, the theater moms, the moms of the other kids in

00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:22.000

the theater I was very, I was I think I had sort of that sort of not not orphan right my parents weren't dead but like you know it was I think it was pretty clear to all the adults in that area that my home life wasn't great and I think it was a relatively

00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:32.000

nice kid so I got I got kind of adopted by this community of really wonderful families. This was in kit that county, Washington.

00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:49.000

So doing theater there and so I spent a lot of nights at like houses of other kids in the shows that I was doing, and I don't even remember which of them actually got me into it but one of the moms was into Tupperware, and I needed some way to make money

00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:59.000

and so that was my first job was selling Tupperware, which was great, because that sort of

00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:11.000

trying to have this how to talk about this without sounding too manipulative as a kid and it really wasn't it's just how it worked out. Like, I think that the, I think a lot of the theater moms were founded charming that this young man age 16 was trying

00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:19.000

to sell Tupperware, and so like trying to sell Tupperware parties actually made bank, I made.

00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:26.000

How long do you sell Tupperware for I'm not that long, it was it was it was less than a year, start to finish it was, it was a little too.

00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:31.000

Even then it was a little pyramid scheme me for me, I started catching on.

00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:34.000

Which, I just want to go ahead and say we're plugging all sorts of things here.

00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:47.000

Tupperware products, high quality kitchen were in for what they're trying to do I like I still like look back and like, they weren't, it wasn't trash I wasn't selling trash.

00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:58.000

But yeah, I think it worked at McDonald's next or something like that, you know, a lot of kids do well okay but here's the question maybe you don't know if that was a tough of work BPA free.

00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:10.000

I mean I don't know for sure but I doubt it. This was 1995, I don't think BPA is are really on the radar right and so I mean as far as it goes. I mean, even around I don't even know if if you can find Tupperware anymore.

00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:12.000

You can find that a goodwill.

00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:15.000

I mean,

00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:33.000

probably not BPA free in fact for that reason I've thrown out most of my head a couple of things left from my Tupperware days even until a couple years ago and I certainly BPA years ago. It's just I mean not much of it not much right but yeah it's, yeah

00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:46.000

go to this new commercial for Tupperware but I you know it's terrible stuff Tupperware and you know it's funny because the stuff I had just a couple like until they said a couple years ago, like, you know, the food thing there was still fresh from 1995,

00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:50.000

I'm joking It's

00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:52.000

crazy.

00:56:52.000 --> 00:57:06.000

I'm curious like Why don't you ask what my first job was just for just for fun this is fun back. Alright, cool, that's your the efficiently blow my mind because I never would have guessed that never, never know in years.

00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:13.000

I'm, I'm a complicated man can just open my life up in the middle and expect to know what happened.

00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:18.000

We need it you know be really tough to do you encounter watch party.

00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:22.000

Oh yeah.

00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:37.000

We probably run into licensing problems with with Disney if we tried to like you know do anything with it the mouse guard secrets closely, but uh, are we watching, like we do with especially with other attorneys that we watch and counsel and then we have

00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:42.000

like this, like almost like a it's like a book study discussion.

00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:49.000

I'm in, I will show up for that you decide to consider me interested if you decide to put that together.

00:57:49.000 --> 00:57:52.000

Oh Lord, we could just talk forever.

00:57:52.000 --> 00:58:22.000

Yeah. And thank you so much again for joining us on another episode of rq on a law.