017 - What Is A Collaborative Divorce? With Attorney Roy Martin

In today's episode I talk to attorney, Roy Martin about one of the best benefits of collaborative divorce - maintaining trust and goodwill between both parties.

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Okay, so we're just gonna do account down here 5 4, 3, 2, and one. hi there!

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Welcome to another episode of Akiona law, family law, and divorce.

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Podcast here in this podcast, we talk about all things that intersect in the areas of family law and divorce.

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And today my special guest is family law collaborative law. Attorney Roy Martin, and he's joining us from Bellingham, Washington.

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Hi, Roy, Thanks for being on the show today. Hi, Lani, Thanks for having me very excited to have you on the show.

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We were talking beforehand how Roy is a very active member on our list serve its domestic relations, attorneys of Washington, and every time someone post a question, and he has an answer.

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He has the most insightful, thoughtful words of wisdom to to share, and I always just felt like I learned so much from you whenever you share in the listener.

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So so thank you for that first of all that's very generous for you to for do that, because I know it takes time.

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So thank you for your generous and kind comment so let's go ahead and get started, because you've got a really interesting background.

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And I you know the most people like you know collaborate law Most people really don't know about it.

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But if you could just briefly okay so let's start up with this.

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You started off doing family law, you start up doing family law, divorce, litigation, and then you transition over to collaborative law.

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So I guess the first question I would want to know is like what brought you into the area of being, of doing family law and divorce.

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Yeah, I went through a really horrible divorce during law school, and it was it was when I was in law school.

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Yeah. Oh, that's crazy. Yeah. So it was first year and first semester finals, I guess, on the first day of finals deliberately by, you know my wife's attorney and so you're

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over there sitting in class to take a final, and you get served with divorce papers. No.

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He came to my apartment that morning. Oh, so, anyhow, you know, I knew that it was done deliberately, because this guy, you know, was that type of attorney. Wow!

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And I had an attorney who was totally different, who held my hand through the process.

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Who guided me was kind, and I saw both sides I saw how how you could make somebody's life so much worse as an attorney.

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But you could also make somebody's life so much better and and something came into focus for me, because I was really on a different path.

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I was you know, I had a background in software at computer software and engineering, and I was thinking that i'd go into patent law, you know, because I had always, you know, worked with machines, not with people and it's. and I didn't think of myself

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as particularly good with people I Still, don't but what happened was I I mean, I saw why certain fields are called professions that never made sense to me.

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My father was a teacher, but you know my mom would say you Know your father's a professional, and it never made sense to me like so what like how is that different from any other job.

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Then I understood in that moment, like why doctors and lawyers and teachers and clergy are different.

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Because we have, you know, we have an opportunity a possibility of impacting people's lives in really profound ways that matter.

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Not that other work doesn't matter when I was briefly in the military, they used to say the most important job is the one that's not getting done, and that's true.

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But you know, like when I met, you know, when I was a software engineer and I wrote good code, I mean that made a difference, but not in the profound life-changing way that it does when one is an

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attorney, or that it can when one is an attorney.

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If one, you know, tries to have that sort of impact.

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Okay, And just how did you do on your final? By the way, I wound up, doing pretty well in law school, I think I did.

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What did I do that year? I think the first semester I got 3 days in a B.

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Wow, I I Can't imagine getting service. divorce papers. and then trying to focus on your final Yeah, I was, you know. I think, being from a Jewish family kind of gave me a natural advantage.

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I'm sorry. Got to mute my phone you know because you know particularly first, semester, you know when everybody's saying, you know like, Why are you hiding the ball?

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You know, like you know, what What are the answers to the questions?

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Those of us who grew up debating over the dinner table knew that there were no answers, that it was all we kind of got what the game was, because it was already implicit in the culture.

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We came from. So take a So okay. So you you went through this like I still can't find them.

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The fact that you get served with divorce papers in your first year of law school, and right before final.

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So that kind of shaped you until, hey? I want to go into this field of family. Wall, it.

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It was more like, I want to make a profound difference in people's lives, and this is a way I can do it.

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Oh, okay. And so then you started off doing divorce litigation. correct?

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And how long? How long did you do divorce litigation?

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For I did only divorce litigation for about 4 years, and then I really got fed up with it.

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I got to the point where there was one case in particular I mean for one thing, I mean, I discovered that it wasn't that I carried a lot of stress that it wasn't effortless for me to go to court the way it is

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for some people, because I really really wanted to impact the outcome.

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Maybe too much, and I carried you know it's like you only have so much power.

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When you go to court you have to kind of let go, and just do the best you can, knowing that you could have always done better.

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But still it was, you know, the best you can and I just felt like I was holding people's lives in my hands, and I felt a responsibility that was overwhelming, and that, combined with the fact that I didn't that I

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came to see over time that I wasn't seeing the whole picture that I would get really wound up in these cases, and then a lot of times, it became a parent.

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Later that I have only seen part of the picture, and it became particularly pronounced in one case where I you know, one custody I put in quotes, because you know what does it really mean.

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But I won custody from my client. I can. Are you able to turn up your microphone volume just a little bit?

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I can maybe move my microphone closer Oh, that's so much better.

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Yeah, really interesting. And hearing the story, I want to make sure I hear you and the listeners hear you, too. Yeah.

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So I was saying that I was. So I had one custody for this guy, you know, over the I over the objections of the wave, and he and his girlfriend then went off to another city with the kids the

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following summer the kids came back to visit, and then the the person who had been the custody Evaluator contacted everyone and said she had met with the kids, which I guess she had been scheduled to do and that she

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had that something had changed in a really big way. These kids were claiming that they were being abused by the dad and the girlfriend and the dashboard client, and and I read, what the kids had Well, what she

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said about what the kids had said, and one of the things they said was, nobody was listening to them, and I realized that I was one of those nobodies who wasn't listening to them, and I saw that I was you know like

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I don't know if they were put up to it I don't know what the truth is, but I realized that I was part of a system where there was no clarity where you know where it was easy to harm, children and without

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realizing you were doing it. I and I you know I just got to a point where it's like I can't do this anymore, and I was getting myself retrained.

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Actually to be a to be a what do you call

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To go into immigration law to be an immigration attorney immigration law. because I felt like you know, There, I could make a positive impact.

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I could really help people, because I didn't know if I was helping or hurting.

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I mean. I knew that some of the time I was helping but I didn't know if I was hurting just as much as I was helping, and just then fellow walked into my office another divorce attorney who had for whatever reason taken

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an interest in me, taking a liking to me, and he just and I hardly knew him at the time.

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We became really good friends, he asked me, How are you doing?

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And I told him, i'm you know i'm going i'm leaving divorce law, and I told him why, and he said, and he told me, Well, you know some of us are getting retrained to do this thing called collaborative law have you

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heard about it. Well, no, I haven't tell me so he told me, and he said, Would you like to join us?

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And we were like the first attorneys in arizona I was. That's where I was practicing at the time to get trained.

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I was, I jumped at it. I was like yes, that's exactly what I wanted to do when I got into family law.

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You know I wanted to have that sort of impact. so i'm interested. So we went off and got trained together, and we came back, and then then tried to do collaborative law, but made a mess of it because we didn't know what

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we were doing. What are we? are in the like 2,000? 12,001?

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Oh, wow! I don't know clever while I went back that far.

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Yeah, it actually goes back to the to the nineties. A fella named Stew Web in Minnesota created it.

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He was a very experienced litigator, very well respected, and he just.

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He got to a point where he just said we're not doing this the right way, and he he reached out to some of his colleagues and proposed that they do things a little differently, and a few of them got on board and they started

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pursuing cases in a different way. Then eventually it spread. and Then, in a group of attorneys, particularly female attorneys in California.

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Not just attorney's actually a turn you know Allied professionals, we call them, you know, some mental health professionals, financial professionals and attorneys is very dynamic group of women got hold of it completely transformed.

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It made it even better by bringing in other professions to integrate.

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So now we have these integrated teams that work together. because when you're doing divorce, you're holding so much more than legal issues, You know it's so easy for attorneys to look at a case, and say

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you know, like easy case. You know that the property is simple, that the maintenance is simple. The custody is simple. You know.

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We lose sight of the fact that no divorce is simple for people going through it.

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It's incredibly complex and scary, and challenging and and so, you know, having mental health professionals as part of a team makes a lot of sense, and having somebody to hold the financial pieces separately, can make a lot of sense so it sounds

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like you and this other attorney we're almost at the forefront of the collaborative movement in Arizona.

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So yeah, 15 of us got trained, and I think after we got trained, 12 of us actually started doing collaborative law.

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And then over time other people joined and some people left.

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Okay? And so what did you find? So what did you find?

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The difference between collaborative law and divorce litigation.

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Well, the reason i'm hesitating is because like I said, we didn't, you know we didn't do it well at first, and we had no teachers, so we had to figure it out ourselves so the beginning it wasn't all

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that different. We were trying to make it different our intentions were good, but we didn't.

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We didn't know what we were doing but as I learned and slowly and over.

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Time, as we all really learned together, I mean, it was different in profound ways.

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I mean, I think, that the central one is that the focus?

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Well, first of all, by having an agreement that we're not going to go to court.

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It has the effect of defanging the attorneys, so the clients have agreed to defang their attorneys, and the attorneys have agreed to defang themselves.

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What that means is all of that term. Do you think? Yeah, Yeah.

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Because before that if you know if my client called me up and said, you know, like my wife, she's not letting me see the children this weekend, you know I would assume the worst and i'd call up the other

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attorney or i'd write a letter and I and i'd you know i'd make accusations and in collaborative.

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I saw very quickly who can't do that I mean I wish I had seen it quicker, because, like I said we were doing valid litigation at first, but it became obvious really quickly that when you don't have a lever of

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going to court. Then you just get into a you know you.

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You get nowhere unless you work together. so I learned to get real curious to call up the other Attorney, and say, Okay, this is what I'm hearing from my client.

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I don't know what's true would you be willing to reach out to your to engage them as a my partner, you know, and to build trust.

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But that that collaborative is premised on very trusting relationships between the various professionals, you know.

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Can you find out what happened? You know I really want to know her perspective. and and you know we get to the bottom of it, and we get a real solution much, much faster, right?

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So. I mean, I think that's the heart of it is that by not being able to go to court, we have to work together.

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Addition, you know. there's an agreement. to fully disclose let's do this.

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Why don't Why don't you tell us what is collaborative horse? And And one more thing before I do that which is that the core of it is really that we're focusing on on intangible goals?

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Rather than so you know it's really easy as an attorney to measure the things that can be measured right to focus on the things that can be measured, because that's how we measure our progress So even when you're talking about

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children is a tendency to measure how many days of parenting time, you know, as opposed to measuring the quality of parenting so collaborative is very different, because we don't measure the I mean we we still measure the tangible

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because those things have value. You know we, you know we have to help people get a portion of the retirement, and I mean all of those things matter, but not to the exclusion of things like goodwill.

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The reality that these people are going to be parenting their children together for the rest of their lives.

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Hopefully. and so, and a lot of people want a divorce in a way that's, you know, commensurate with their values.

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They you know they feel like you know we've loved each other through the marriage, at least as well as we knew how, and we want to keep doing that.

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We don't want to become enemies you know maybe they're you know they have attachments to each other's friends and family, and they don't want to lose those I mean you know children are typically at the core.

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Of it, though everyone wants to do right by their children. and so you know people can still have differences.

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But we look at what's under those differences like If one person saying, I need to have 50% parenting time.

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The question becomes, Why is why is that so important to you as opposed to the what which I was really good at as a litigator?

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You know i'll try to get you what you tell me you want Now I ask, you know why what's underneath that, and if you find that somebody's afraid of losing connection with the kids or they're afraid that you know the wife and

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the kids will move away you know Well, let's talk about that let's get to what it's really about you know the same thing on the other side.

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If another. If the if a parent says it's really important to me that i'd be the primary parent Well, what's that?

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About often this fear, you know fear that my spouse won't be able to parent the children as well as I do, or will hurt them in some way.

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So you know. So how do we? You know? How do we deal with that?

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How do we address it? Not just not just to emotionally assuage the concern, but to really get to the heart of it.

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So in a collaborative case we don't just have attorneys. We have a coach who's who's a therapist, but they're not there to do therapy with the parties they're there to

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help with the communication dynamic help each of them look at what's what's truly important, what will seem important.

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10 years from now. Looking back on, it versus what might seem important in the heat of the moment, and help us understand the dynamic, the communication dynamics.

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So people don't continue to replicate it through the divorce as they typically do.

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No, you said something really interesting, right there, you said we with the therapist.

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We look at what's going to be important 10 years from now, what's important right now in the heat of the moment. That's you know, in in divorce and divorce or custody about the litigation a lot

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of people are just focused on like right now, right now. Not kind of thinking.

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Well, 10 years ahead. Is this really gonna matter? right? Exactly. So helping people back up and look at the big picture

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And we start with that at the very beginning we start you know by asking them about You know what are your reasons for wanting to do this collaboratively, and that's part of the first meeting.

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And we, you know we get that down so that every time we go into a negotiation where we're trying to deal with the the details.

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The nitty gritty, We remind them of what they told us, because usually it'll be like we really want to do this right by the kids.

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We want to, you know, you know each each parent will say something like it, you know.

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At the end of the day. I want us to be able to parent together.

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1. One woman said it very beautifully. I I recently wrote about this was it was actually not my client, but the other party.

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The wife. They had a 16 year old. daughter. and she said you know, one day our daughter is going to get pregnant, you know, hopefully, not any time soon.

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But one day that'll happen and when that happens I want you standing next to me in the hospital hospital, You know Maternity Ward to greet our first grandchild together. and it's it was That kind of moment It's like we all kind of

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got teary like like It was like a real privilege to be part of this family family's you know.

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Journey at that moment. It was like Wow to be able to witness that moment.

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It just made me so grateful. that I get to do this kind of work.

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Yeah, that's that's beautiful i'm just taking that in right now.

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My goodness, so walk us through like, you know, a collaborative

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So I guess basically, what is collaborative law? What is a collaborative divorce process?

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So there are 2 key elements. One is the agreement not to go to court, and the other is the agreement to fully disclose.

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We're not going to hide anything everything that's relevant to the well-being of the children to the financial issues.

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You know, you know money so everyone's income all the assets everything's going to be out in the open we touch upon.

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So the 2 key things are in agreement not to go to court and agreement to fully disclose everything.

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So what happens if someone's decides to go to court that terminates the collaborative case?

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They have to start over again. All the professionals are out of our work.

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Product is out so so we're you know we're deliberately making it difficult and painful to do that, and we and we're very careful about selecting cases.

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So. in other words, i'm not going to do collaborative if somebody's got one put in one put out.

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Okay, it takes commitment to this process because it just because we're doing it collaboratively.

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Doesn't make it easy it's still a divorce and so you know i'm sorry I always tell people that first meeting we read the participation agreement out loud together.

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It's kind of like taking vows and i'll say to people, you know.

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Look, this is a hard process it's not easy when it gets hard. it's your commitment to this process is what's going to keep.

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Keep us going, so i'm not setting up on this journey unless I have your word that you're committed to it, and you're going to do the things you need to do you're not going to tell me halfway through the case.

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That I don't want to talk to the coach anymore. where I'm not taking the kids to see the child specialist, or, you know, like like you need to do the things that you know that are your part of this you know because I can't be more committed

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to your case than you than you are that won't work Wow!

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That's powerful right there can't be more committed to this case than you are right. And so if the case were to go to court, you can no longer represent that person at all.

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Okay, and that rarely happens. I mean I you know, if it does happen, I see it as usually we failed to notice something that was important at the beginning, because they were signs.

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They were warning. signs okay, I mean it can't it can't sneak up on you where you don't have really have any clue.

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So there's probably I mean you know I would say that probably 3 to 5% of cases.

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Fail something like that of small percentage. But it happens, and this is with a with a season team with brand new collaborative attorneys like we were when I first got trained.

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I mean, you know, a lot of our cases failed back then probably half.

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But I mean we've gotten it down to you know to a science.

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Now it'll still happen occasionally but rarely i'd like it. I'd like to get it so rare that it's like you know in the event of a water landing you know you know because you like you know you don't even

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listen to that. when you're on the airplane you know you know there's not going to be a water landing right?

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So you know it's like i'd like to get it to that point where it's just like like that.

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But we're not there, and I don't think we will be in my lifetime.

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But we do keep upping our game in terms of the product we deliver because we learn together, and it's, and it's a big box.

00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:47.000
There's always more to learn what happens is someone fails to disclose everything.

00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:56.000
Well, if if assuming somebody finds out about it right if they do it, and nobody ever finds out, it's just like litigation, right, you know.

00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:08.000
But mean hopefully, people who get into collaborative I suppose you know I mean one of the things i'm always on the lookout for actually is, what are people's motives and getting into collaborative because if they're

00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:18.000
doing it to try to hide you know to try to pull the wool over someone's eyes, to try to you know, ensure a certain outcome, or prevent a certain outcome?

00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:27.000
Or to exhaust the other party I mean all of those things are huge indicators that this is not appropriate, and we're not going to do the case collaboratively.

00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:34.000
But if somebody manages to be such a good such an effective sociopath that they, you know that they hide, you know they can they?

00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:42.000
That the mask doesn't slip and I don't see it, and nobody on the team sees it, which I think is unlikely, quite frankly, because we get deep into people's lives.

00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:57.000
But if that were to happen, and you know maybe it's happened in some of my cases, then, of course, we wouldn't know Now, if I find out which which doesn't happen often, but it has happened from time to time then so actually i'll give you an example from real

00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:03.000
life. The client, tells me he's been sank through throughout the case, you know, like I I know she's having an affair.

00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:07.000
I know she, you know, saying all these things about his wife like I like.

00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:13.000
He knows them, and I you know, as a professional team, because you know sometimes the professional team talks without the parties present.

00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:25.000
You know We're talking about how certain he is about certain things, and how puzzling it is, and at a certain point he's saying this to me Private League, and I said, Well, listen you don't know you're

00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:30.000
you're making assumptions, But you don't know and he's like oh, I know, and somehow he said it in a way that pierced something for me.

00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:37.000
And I said, Okay, how do you know? And he said he said, Well, you know, he was in law enforcement.

00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:43.000
He had access to information most of us don't oh he had his wife's.

00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:49.000
He had access to her texts and her emails, and he was reading all her stuff.

00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:54.000
And I said, Well, yeah, and I said well okay now that you've told me this.

00:22:54.000 --> 00:23:02.000
I'm glad you told me, but we've got a problem because you know, I can't rat you out unless you give me permission to.

00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:08.000
Okay, but at the same time, if you don't give me permission to then the cat collaborative case will terminate.

00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:20.000
I will terminate it. I will, withdraw number one, because I can't represent you. but number 2 I can I can terminate the case if I you know, if just handing it off to another collaborative Attorney means that you

00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:22.000
now get to perpetuate your fraud.

00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:26.000
So we've got a fraudulent collaborative case that shouldn't be preceding collaboratively.

00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:29.000
I can just terminate it, and so that's what I would do so.

00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:40.000
I said, What do you want to do? and I said I know it's a risk, because I said, if she gets upset enough and she goes to your supervisor, You may lose your job ?

00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:50.000
And you know your career and everything. So lots on the line here, and at the same time she'd be killing the goose that slaying the golden eggs, since your family is reliant on your income, so I don't know what the

00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:53.000
result. will be it's your choice Why don't you think about it.

00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:56.000
Talk to people you trust, you know. give me a call back.

00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:58.000
And so he called me back the next day he said I thought about it, and Ok.

00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:04.000
I'm going to come clean. Okay, and so I called up the other attorney, and I said, Hey, are you sitting down?

00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:11.000
No should I be? Yes, sit down and I told him and he's like Oh, my God!

00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:26.000
Like I never had that happen before. Wow! we had a meeting, and he told her, and you know he crawled across broken shards of glass to say he was sorry, and she was pissed.

00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:35.000
I mean she you know she knew going in what he was gonna say, because the other attorney prepared her. that's part of what we do in a collaborative case, and we get people prepared.

00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:40.000
But you know she expressed her outrage but she wasn't entirely surprised.

00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:47.000
She kind of knew at some level, and and she basically told them at the had better never happen again.

00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:51.000
And it actually it wound up, being kind of healing for them.

00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:53.000
We wound up, we completed the collaborative case and I think they got off on a better foot.

00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:58.000
I don't think they've rebuilt the trust 100% by any means.

00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:06.000
But it at least got something out in the open that had been hidden, and I don't think there were any more secrets after that.

00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:13.000
Wow! that's big i'm glad everybody was able to come together and work through that in the cloudier process.

00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:16.000
Yeah, me, too. I I feel like in the divorce litigation.

00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:25.000
I would have just been this huge minefield Oh, yeah take it would have taken a lot to try and rain and to try and tell someone we wait. Wait!

00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:30.000
Don't go to court about this let's still try and let's try and work things out.

00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:34.000
Yeah, you'd be You'd be surprised by how many people you know who come to me.

00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:37.000
They read my website, and they'll say you know I was a child of divorce.

00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:43.000
I remember what it was like as a child, and how horrible it was, and I don't want to do that to my kids.

00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:55.000
So I found you Oh, okay, you know I mean that's one experience I haven't had i've had my own divorce, but my parents didn't divorce you know i'm I really appreciate those

00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:01.000
perspectives. it's another important piece we don't just rely on what the parents say about the children.

00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:16.000
We have another mental health professional, Who, again, is not there to do therapy with the children, but rather that to get to know them, to get a sense of what their needs are, and to bring that back to the team because as adults number one we

00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:27.000
forget what it was like to be a kid and parents don't you know, like they typically don't hear from their children aren't able to articulate what their needs are.

00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:30.000
If your parents were to ask, which is not always a good idea anyway.

00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:34.000
Children of a certain age are most likely to tell the parent exactly what they think.

00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:50.000
That parent wants to hear and so to have somebody who's there to help the children have a voice in the process, and not like a guard, not like a gal. you know not like not coming down from on high with you know Here's what

00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:55.000
I see, and this is what should happen but rather here's what I see here are my concerns.

00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:01.000
What do you guys want to do with it, you know. Bring it back to us as a team, including including the parties themselves, of course.

00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:14.000
But you know, all of us to help us look at Okay, you know. So we've got a problem, and it can show up in really interesting ways, like If, for instance, a child has discomfort around one of the parents to bring that to us in a way that

00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:18.000
might allow us to look at. Okay, what do we do about that?

00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:23.000
How can we make it better? you're talking about the child coach?

00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:27.000
The the child specialist is called specialist so why don't why don't you?

00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:34.000
You said there's several professionals involved in the collaborative law process, and who are those professionals out are involved?

00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:42.000
Okay, So you have a verbal role in play. So a collaboratively trained attorney for each party, you know, in the better train the better.

00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:53.000
And I say that because, like I said when I first started, you know I just had a weekend's training, and you don't learn enough so hopefully, if somebody is new to it, they either have a natural aptitude more than I

00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:57.000
did or they or they're coachable if they're coachable.

00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:06.000
That's helpful, and then we have a coach and we have a coach in every case I won't do a collaborative case without coach coach is really important.

00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:10.000
In fact, the coach is the glue that holds the case together.

00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:17.000
And yeah, for the the husband and wife right right?

00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:27.000
So that's a therapist who helps them have conversations with each other, and then and then we have a If there are children I always want to have child specialist.

00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:31.000
I didn't always feel that way, but I came to see the wisdom of it.

00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:35.000
I came to see that you know no matter how well the children seem to be doing.

00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:40.000
We don't always know it's always good to have somebody there at least to validate our thoughts.

00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:46.000
If nothing else. as a kind of an insurance policy to make sure we're on the right path that we're not overlooking something important.

00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:57.000
So the child specialist is there to meet the parents. and if the children are going to appropriate age to meet the children as well to give the parents feedback as to the normal developmental needs of their children, which may be all they can.

00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:04.000
do if the children are really young, and but if the children are a little older and they can get to know them a little bit.

00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:09.000
Also they unique individual needs of those children. help them to see.

00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:14.000
You know what the children are experiencing as the family goes through this process.

00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:19.000
Okay, and I like to have them present even if all we're talking about is is money.

00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:31.000
I didn't realize that until I recently but I found out that you know, having the child specialist present when we're talking about, you know, spousal maintenance or division of property can be powerful, because it reminds people of

00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:41.000
what's really important to them. It helps with that conversation Okay, yeah.

00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:43.000
We can have a financial neutral as well so it's optional.

00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:51.000
The financial neutralist is, would, you know, would gather all the information as opposed to having 2 attorneys, both gathering it.

00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:58.000
We have 1, one neutral person who then writes a report supporting documents and sends it out to the professional team.

00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:02.000
First rest Review. The attorneys may ask questions, may say, You know, what about this?

00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:06.000
What about that? The report might get revised? maybe additional documents are gathered.

00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:16.000
But when We're all satisfied, that we've got a complete picture, you know that person will then disclose it to the parties, i'll say, you know.

00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:29.000
Do you see any? anything we missed? and and then we have, and and the financial neutral can do a couple of other things they can help, you know, because because their expertise is in money.

00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:33.000
They can help us. Look at. How do we take this? The finite resources of this family?

00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:40.000
And you know what are the different ways of putting it to work, so that it works for everyone to achieve their high-end goals.

00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:45.000
The goals that they started off with, which made it can include things like, I want to retire.

00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:50.000
By the time i'm 50 right or I want to I Want to have a house right, you know I want to, you know.

00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:57.000
Move to wherever and then want to go back to school.

00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:08.000
They can also help with someone who's you know financially disadvantaged like if they're not sophisticated with money to help them begin to learn the ropes to kind of coach them through possibly that, can

00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:15.000
include looking at options for retraining Oh, creating a career i'm, doing it within within.

00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:23.000
You know, figure helping us figure out the the maintenance like how much maintenance, and you know, and for how long is necessary to accomplish these goals.

00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:32.000
So they usually have a lot of expertise and creativity that the rest of us may not have.

00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:37.000
I love that financial neutral because it can help parties figure out long term like you were saying like, what do I need?

00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:47.000
2030 years from now to be okay whereas I feel like edges of the divorce litigation level when we're trying to talk about acid and division.

00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:50.000
All we can figure out is right now we can't figure out what this means.

00:31:50.000 --> 00:32:00.000
20 years from now, absolutely absolutely it's been actually can be very powerful. I there was one guy who used to put up a chart on the wall during our meetings.

00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:05.000
He come to the typically the second meeting, because the first meeting is where we create the collaborative container.

00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:15.000
So he'd come to the next meeting with all these projections. And yeah, if we stay, you know, if if you know he'd like, take a hypothetical like I put together this hypothetical and you know, you guys can accept

00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:26.000
it or reject it or whatever it's up to you but if we did this hypothetical here's what I project your finances would look like for the rest. of your lives, Wow, and let's say there's a

00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:30.000
proposal, for you know X dollars and spousal maintenance, which initially the pay or goes.

00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:44.000
Oh, my God, I can't pay that and the payee says you know whatever the pace is. but you know And then you know. And then you look at those projections, and you see how you how things are going to play out over time the person I would find that the person who had who was being asked to pay would

00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:54.000
go. Oh, that doesn't actually look so bad and I can see why it's important, because without that you know my spouse would be, you know, in trouble. right?

00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:06.000
So things can come into focus. I think it's so helpful to have people who are sitting in neutral chairs where they're you know they're not representing anyone so it's clear they're just bringing information they're

00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:10.000
not they don't have an axe grind they're not pushing for one outcome over another.

00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:18.000
It makes it much easier for people to take in information, especially when it comes to financials having that financial neutral.

00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:21.000
There is just so helpful and eliminating i'm gonna ask you

00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:31.000
Let me ask you this. So if we're talking about spousal maintenance and child support, can I just just children, too, having a neutral in that in that role with children helps a lot with parenting grants.

00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:34.000
But go ahead. Well I love that no that's so important too.

00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:44.000
Thank you for saying that. So you you had talked about when you're talking about monies when you're talking about spousal maintenance and child support you like to have the financial neutral in there so would you have if you're

00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:52.000
doing a conversation rate, a group meeting about child support and spouse maintenance. Would you have the financial neutral, the child specialist, and the coach there?

00:33:52.000 --> 00:34:03.000
All 3 of those people, I mean, you could and I mean my preference would be when you're always trying to balance the resources of the family, because, having everybody present costs more. I always want to have the coach present at any

00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:17.000
full team meetings and then, if we're talking about finances, I certainly want to have the financial neutral if we have one, and if we're talking about the children I definitely want to have the child specialist present the question, becomes do we have

00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:25.000
the financial specialists present i'm sorry do we have well typically we wouldn't have necessarily have the financial specialist. if all we're talking about is the parenting plan.

00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:29.000
Yeah, that's not enough value, added but on the other but I found that there is value.

00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:34.000
Editor there can be when you have the child specialist present for the financial discussions.

00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:41.000
Okay, So talk about you. reference that first meeting you called it the collaborative container.

00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:52.000
Yeah, after both parties have selected collaborative attorneys, and they've retained us, you know we'll set up a first meeting for which the coach may or may not be present some coaches like to be present

00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:58.000
for that first meeting others, don't feel it's necessary at that first meeting. we we have a typical agenda, you know.

00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:03.000
We'll start by of course saying, Hello, and Then we'll actually read through the collaborative participation agreement together.

00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:08.000
Now we've already sent this off to the parties and they've read it, and they've let us know if they have any questions, and we've talked about it.

00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:14.000
But by reading it together out loud. That has the effect of number one, making sure everybody understands that.

00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:18.000
You know this is real we're serious about this the he's agreements, you know.

00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:25.000
Don't don't enter this I always tell people you know litigation is awful in my opinion, but the only thing worse than litigation is litigation.

00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:34.000
Following a failed collaborative case, we don't you know you don't want to spend you know 10 or 20 or $40,000 on a collaborative case, and then have it you know.

00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:38.000
Go out the window and have to start over again in litigation.

00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:42.000
Wow. So So you know, this is really important, and we read through it together.

00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:56.000
We actually take turns reading paragraphs and make sure everybody understands all of it. Then you know. and then we ask people, you know, are you like, you know, i'll typically when we used to do this in one room, I would look them

00:35:56.000 --> 00:36:00.000
in the eye and i'd say I need to know that you're fully committed that you're you know like It's like climbing a mountain.

00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:09.000
If I were going to climb them out with you i'd want to know you're on the other end of the rope, and that if I fall off this way, you're going to jump off that way you know and I can trust

00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:16.000
you That's the same thing. you know or you know can I trust you because I don't want to have a failed collaborative case here, you know.

00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:20.000
Can you're more important than can I trust you can your spouse? Trust you?

00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:30.000
Wow, can your children trust you? And And so you know, people will typically say yes, and they will typically mean it.

00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:34.000
And we remind them of that if they start to wobble.

00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:41.000
And I explained to them that part of that means working with the whole team like not like, like, you know, the people who think they can rewrite.

00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:54.000
You know we do this a certain way, because we've learned how to do this over years together, working together, you know when people try to short circuit the process, It's kind of like if you're on a commercial jetliner and

00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:58.000
you decide. Oh, I know how to fly this plane i'm just going to go storm the cockpit and kill the pilot and fly it myself.

00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:07.000
It's a good way to fly. right into the side of a mountain, so you know, like, Don't do that like be coachable, and and you know, and you know, keep you know.

00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:12.000
Letting us know, give us feedback as to how you're doing, and how things are going by all means.

00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:20.000
But then, you know, allow us to help you. you cultural, and allow the professionals to help you.

00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:28.000
Yeah, yeah, that's important I like that yeah and if something really isn't working for some reason we'll address it.

00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:37.000
If for some reason you know one of you can't work with the you know with it, with one of the professionals will be, can substitute somebody else in if necessary, need be but Don't assume we don't need that

00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:45.000
professional, right? Yeah. So the first meeting is what typically would typically take anywhere from one to 2 h.

00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:50.000
No? Well, the the first meeting is always scheduled for 3 h, the first half hours, just for the professionals.

00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:52.000
2 h with the parties, and then a half an hour at the end.

00:37:52.000 --> 00:38:07.000
Debrief for the professionals. So that so altogether it's 3 h, and you know I try as best I can to keep things like clockwork, because after 2 h people start to get exhausted Well, the next thing we do in that meeting which I think is really important

00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:10.000
is. We talk about what are called high-level goals, so I always coach clients in advance.

00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:24.000
What I mean when I say that we always we asked them about their high end goals or highlights, because we're sort of starting out up here in the clouds like what's really important to you and then ultimately, we have

00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:29.000
to get down into the weeds. right? So you know what high-end goals means.

00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:32.000
I always tell people is, you know, like, what are your visions for the future?

00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:34.000
What do you? You know? what? Why do you want to do this case collaboratively?

00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:37.000
What do you see getting out of it? What do you want?

00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:45.000
10 years from now for your family to look like what you know what's in it for you to do a case this way as opposed to going to war.

00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:48.000
You know here's where people will talk about things like you know that you know.

00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:52.000
I mean i've been talking about this stuff forever you know you're gonna be going to the same weddings and graduations.

00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:55.000
But when that, you know, raising the same grandchildren.

00:38:55.000 --> 00:39:05.000
But when that woman said, I want you next to me in the maternity Board, when our first grandchild comes into the world, you know she had done her homework because her attorney had coached her on you know I want you to

00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:10.000
think about this and wait to spend some time with it, and that came into her heart, and she shared it.

00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:15.000
And it was like really profound. So sometimes there are these moments, you know.

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:22.000
Typically people will talk about the children first and foremost they can also talk about, you know I I you know I don't want to spend a lot of money.

00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:25.000
I want this to be efficient, but you know I they'll talk about.

00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:37.000
I want to be in control I don't want the court to decide things for us that we should be deciding for ourselves, but they'll they'll more often talk about things like the children.

00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:42.000
They'll talk about things like wanting to state friends wanting to honor the you know.

00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:54.000
But I was doing a case just the other day where one of the parties said, You know I've always loved you and respected you, and admired you, and I don't want to stop loving and respecting and admiring

00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:05.000
you it's like Wow! Another beautiful moment yeah absolutely sweet yeah people don't always come into it like that I mean that was that was a little unusual.

00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:15.000
Usually by the time people get to divorce they're you know it's like you have to help them. get back to that place if you can, but those high end goals We write them.

00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:19.000
Down, we Well, first of all, we reflect them back like didn't you know, so somebody will say x Y. and Z.

00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:25.000
And What'll try to do is have the other attorney at least in my cases, i'll have you know.

00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:37.000
So if if i'm representing the husband and the wife said that i'll reflect back what she said I want to make sure i'm understanding what you said, tell me if they get this, right i'll reflect it back and if she says yes, you

00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:41.000
did great. She says no you didn't okay tell me what I got wrong, and we'll keep doing it until I get right.

00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:44.000
And then the other attorney will do that for my client.

00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:50.000
Once we have it all down after the meeting they'll be what we call progress notes.

00:40:50.000 --> 00:41:00.000
One of the attorneys, will write progress notes send it to the other members of a professional team to make sure that everyone who is of the meeting heard the same thing, or we got it all down on paper We'll make any corrections.

00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:03.000
We'll get on the same page and then once we think we got it right.

00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:05.000
We'll send it to the parties and say did we get it right, because they're not.

00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:10.000
They're not your progress notes until you both tell us they are so you can add to them.

00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:18.000
You can change them. you can subtract from them we don't want to put words in your mouth, but once they say, yes, you got it right.

00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:24.000
Then we have, among other things, we have these really valuable, high-end goals that we can keep bringing back to them.

00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:28.000
They can change them. it's their right to change them through the end of the case, and for the rest of their lives.

00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:37.000
But like when we're going into a meeting where we're going to discuss something challenging, particularly, but really anything at all, it's helpful to remind them of their high-end goals.

00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:39.000
Okay, we're gonna have that conversation about maintenance today.

00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:44.000
I know it's really scary I know you're each scared about not having enough being able to retire one day.

00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:50.000
You know, you know it can feel oppressive. It can feel, you know, really dangerous.

00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:58.000
So before we do that let's review our high-end goals, let's talk about what you guys told us were important to you.

00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:00.000
You really want to both be there for your children? You want to.

00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:04.000
You want to be in the Maternity Board together when your first grandchild arrives.

00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:10.000
Okay. Now, now, you know, i'll also remind people that in order to get there, you have to win.

00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:17.000
You can't just surrender you know what you need because a Win-win requires that you both win, so that that doesn't mean you.

00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:20.000
Then let the other person win at your expense and you get run over.

00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:23.000
We don't do that, either. it's like it's like we have to find a true win-win.

00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:30.000
The only real win is a win win because otherwise there'll be resentment, and it won't work won't work for the family.

00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:39.000
So we need to find solutions that are going to work for both of you. and if there's pain which there probably will be because most people aren't rich, I mean occasionally you do a case where there's enough money where it

00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:48.000
doesn't really matter you know what we're debating is you know, like if we're talking about money, it might be like, you know, who are the kids going to hair it a little bit more from one day.

00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:58.000
But in a typical case we're talking about hard stuff and if there's pain, you know how do we share the pain in a way that feels right to both.

00:42:58.000 --> 00:43:06.000
You know, to both of you, so that you can both say that felt fair, that felt felt just so.

00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:09.000
How long does he? How long does the cloud your process normally?

00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:21.000
Take 6 months a year. It varies tremendously it depends on how close people are to settlement when they show up, and then how difficult they are, or easy they are to coach through. the process.

00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:36.000
I would i've had cases that have settled rarely I think it's happened to me like twice that case is settled in like the first meeting, you know, after the initial meeting just to create the container So you know, so a 2

00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:45.000
meeting total case Usually it's 3 or 4 meetings. but a lot of stuff can happen between meetings because a lot of the work is done with the Allied professionals or with the attorneys in the background.

00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:57.000
Right. So I also had a case once where the parties decided to put everything on hold because their daughter was 16, and they wanted to wait until she graduated from high school before they finished the case.

00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:07.000
Okay, So we've been back burned it all and it probably would have stayed back. Bernard, even longer, except one of the attorneys was, you know, had gotten married and was moving out of state.

00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:18.000
So i'll call them up instead of you they have what you know what you know. Either you have to switch Attorneys client of this attorney, or else we need to get going So they decided to jump back in because that by that

00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:20.000
point the daughter had gone up to college it's like Okay, It's time.

00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:31.000
Let's do this Wow, that's something okay so it sounds like i'm i'm just trying to think back when, too, when I was

00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:34.000
When I did my collaborative case. But there are no kids.

00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:38.000
And actually, what ended up happening was that the parties in the reconciling?

00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:42.000
So it really we really didn't get that much long into the process?

00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:46.000
But are you? are you thinking, i'm thinking it almost sounds like anywhere from?

00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:51.000
I think if you don't have kids maybe 3 or 4 meetings, you could get things resolved.

00:44:51.000 --> 00:44:56.000
Oh, I would. Yeah, I would think I mean 3 or 4 meetings typically is enough with kids.

00:44:56.000 --> 00:44:59.000
So I would say 2 or 3 meetings about, probably. but you know it depends.

00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:02.000
Every case is so different. i've had cases that needed a lot more meetings.

00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:10.000
It's it's really you know there's no one size fits all. It's very unique to a family, and you know, like you know, like a reconciliation.

00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:13.000
How rarely does that happen by the time people come to us.

00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:18.000
But it does happen, and collaborative can open the door to that, because it reminds it helps people remember that they love each other.

00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:21.000
They care about each other, and they might say well let's take another shot at this.

00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:26.000
Yeah, so it's not it's not actually that uncommon like sometimes halfway through a collaborative case.

00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:34.000
We'll hear you know. put everything on pause we're going to try to reconcile and then they'll either eventually come back to us and say, Okay, refund the trust balance.

00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:38.000
We're done, we're reconciling or They'll Say, okay, we didn't work.

00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:45.000
Let's keep going cool. Okay. So again, in terms of the collaborative process, just people.

00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:49.000
When people signed agreement, they agree not to go to court.

00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:52.000
The agree to disclose everything and I think that's a really big difference.

00:45:52.000 --> 00:46:09.000
Aside from divorce litigation, and then you have the team of professionals involved, which is a collaborative attorneys. the financial neutral, the child specialists and the coach Okay, What do you

00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:12.000
like best about doing collaborative law. I love the camaraderie.

00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:22.000
I love the you know the sense, you know, like when I first got into law here and there I meet a colleague at where it felt like you know, we were kind of like we were kind of on the same team and we could do cases

00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:26.000
together effectively, but so many people it felt like they were shooting at me.

00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:30.000
It felt like you know it's like if you were a surgeon book, and there were other surgeons, but they were trying to kill you.

00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:36.000
Why are you doing your surgery? What I like about collaborative?

00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:40.000
Is that we're really working together as a team and that the more we develop trust, more.

00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:52.000
We learn to trust each other like it like in other words I can't. I can't screw you in this case, because it like it might like somehow my client will benefit from it, because we're gonna have another case and another case after

00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:57.000
that. And and not only I mean number one that would, totally, you know, work against the collaborative spirit.

00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:01.000
It would be completely hypocritical but but we just don't think of those terms.

00:47:01.000 --> 00:47:08.000
We think you know we learn to become partners and if something isn't working, and we're and we're coming up against each other.

00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:11.000
We have to work through it, which might mean you know let me take you to lunch.

00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:15.000
Let's talk about what happened you know let's you know I need to understand your perspective.

00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:22.000
I want you to understand mine. If we, you know, if we need help, we might bring in somebody to help us, Maybe ask one of the coaches to come.

00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:25.000
Help facilitate that discussion. It doesn't happen very often anymore.

00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:36.000
But it can happen. I mean I you know every now and again I mean well, I shouldn't say that I mean you know inevitably between human beings.

00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:46.000
Things come up. I think we get skilled at working through them, but every once in a while we get hooked in a way where it's where we can't our skills aren't enough to get us to get us through whatever came up

00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:48.000
because you know one of the reasons we do a debrief.

00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:52.000
After each meeting is to have those discussions, you know, not to let things faster.

00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:58.000
So right after a meeting, even if everything seems to have gone really well, you know, I might say, it's so nice working with you guys.

00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:09.000
This has been great. Now tell me, you know did I step on anyone's toes, and if I did please you know, please give it to me straight, because I want to understand, and if somebody says you did i'll ask him to be very

00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:15.000
specific it's like if you just said you weren't listening to me. I don't really know what to do with that, you know.

00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:19.000
But if you can tell me when I wasn't listening to you what happened, what, what?

00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:21.000
Who said What? So I can think back on it and go.

00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:35.000
Okay, now, now I see. So you have a particular need and I missed it. But I was like, but as I get to know you better now, i'll know that if that comes up again, you know to to know that you know this this particular

00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:40.000
professional handles. this kind of thing in this way and you know we'll try to tailor our approaches.

00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:46.000
So they harmonize. so you're talking about the debrief with the professionals.

00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:56.000
After the initial meeting. Now, are you only taking cases Go ahead after every meeting, Not just the initial and you're so are you. do you?

00:48:56.000 --> 00:49:03.000
So you're in Wacom County right But do you take collaborative cases throughout like King County, and I can.

00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:09.000
I can take them anywhere in the State. I mean the people that I know best, the the attorneys, and other professionals with whom I have the closest relationship.

00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:11.000
So the ones who are part of the Watcom collaborative group.

00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:24.000
Some of them are actually from King county or snow homage county. I mean they're not all necessarily here in Bellingham, but I've done cases with other attorneys in other parts of the State.

00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:27.000
And you know some of them are just, you know, such a pleasure to work with.

00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:30.000
I mean. I think everyone is when you get to know him.

00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:36.000
But you know just, you know certain ones, you know certain people have worked so hard to hone their skills.

00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:46.000
But I you know that I sort of i'm eager to work with them, and you know, like we'll we'll meet at a statewide meeting once a year, so kind of like draw has a statewide meeting cpw

00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:51.000
collaborative press runs of Washington as a Statewide meeting, and I try never to miss it since since Covid came. I've missed it.

00:49:51.000 --> 00:50:01.000
But before Covid i'd done every year straight for 10 years, or whatever, and I meet these people from all over the State, and you know we'll connect, and i'll be like Oh, man, I hope one day we get to have a

00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:04.000
case together. that would be so awesome. And how long have you been doing?

00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:10.000
Collaborative law. Well, i've been an attorney since 1,996 now, and I got trained in collaborative in 2,001.

00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:13.000
So what is that? 21 years? Well, that's that's a long time?

00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:28.000
You gotta look very young for your many years. of practice I don't know how old you are, but you look at I've got more greater than you, so that's what i'm going off of so I know people

00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:33.000
are gonna I know people are gonna wanna know this question they're wanted They're gonna wanna know what's the cost.

00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:39.000
Can you give us a ballpark figure? of how much a collaborative divorce cost it's hard.

00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:42.000
I never sell it to people as a low-cost alternative to litigation.

00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:45.000
What I what I tell them is, Look, I think you can get better bang for your buck.

00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:53.000
Assuming it's we're choosing the case wisely not if we're not if it's a case that isn't appropriate to collaborative in which case it would be better to

00:50:53.000 --> 00:51:05.000
litigate. It can be important to litigate but if we, if we're taking a situation where you know, I would say at least half of the cases that go to the you know that go through the litigation process probably

00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:12.000
could be collaborative. So you know, it just depends on how much support a family needs through the process.

00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:16.000
I would say. the low end is probably something like, you know.

00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:27.000
Both parties. so i'll talk about it it's combined as a family, you know, like in other words. Let's say each party spends, you know, 3,000 on their attorneys, and another you know 1,000 on allied professionals.

00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:32.000
We've just done a $7,000 collaborative case that's that's gonna probably be roughly the low end.

00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:35.000
Oh, that is low. The high end is, you know, is probable.

00:51:35.000 --> 00:51:46.000
Well, so a typical case is probably more like I don't know 1012, $15,000 each for Attorneys, and you know several 1,000 for each professional other.

00:51:46.000 --> 00:51:54.000
Professional so You know something in the I don't know actually that's probably there. I don't know it's hard to categorize.

00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:01.000
I'd probably say let's say 12 to 30,000 is the middle range. more range.

00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:08.000
Yeah per person. Not well. No total family. Oh, you mean total Oh, no, i'm sorry per person.

00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:13.000
You're right because I said no actually I well it's a continuum.

00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:18.000
So really really it's hard to speak of so yeah I mean if you think 7,000 is the low end, and then I'm.

00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:28.000
So depending on what you call the middle i'm saying like you know, let's define 12 as 30 as the mid to 30, as the middle, or most people you know the hump of the bell curve is going to be you know and that's no

00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:41.000
different litigation. you can you know each person can spend at that temporary order, hearing and anywhere from 10 to $50,000, depending on how you know you're talking about parenting plan child supports, possible maintenance. litigation.

00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:49.000
Is not cheap, Right? Yeah. and what i'll tell people is that assuming your case settles it won't be as expensive as the most horrible litigation cases.

00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:53.000
In other words, a typical litigation case will settle somewhere in that range.

00:52:53.000 --> 00:53:00.000
But if you have a really bad one, you might be spending $100,000 in more collaborative, you know.

00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:07.000
It would be very rare, at least in my community, to get to anything close to that before the case either settles or fails right.

00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:18.000
And I Just think, you get you know it's just so much more rewarding through that collaborative process, because you're having a direct say, and only that you just have that team helping you with the you like you're saying the

00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:22.000
child specialist, the parent, the coach, and the financial neutral.

00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:28.000
Yeah, I mean, I think the big thing that helps people relax is to know that nothing is going to be done without your consent.

00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:31.000
Nothing is going to get forced down your throat at the end of the day.

00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:37.000
Nothing's going to happen unless you agree to it yeah That's not true.

00:53:37.000 --> 00:53:44.000
Wow! that's that's a huge piece right There nothing can happen unless you agree to it.

00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:49.000
Unlike court right? and even if a case settles in court because most of my cases settled.

00:53:49.000 --> 00:53:57.000
When I was litigating as do i'm sure that's true for most everyone, I mean nobody nobody tries all their cases, and if you try one case a year that that can be a lot.

00:53:57.000 --> 00:54:04.000
But but the thing is that when you're litigating they set, they settle in what what I call the shadow of the cord.

00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:13.000
In other words, either some mediator who doesn't let you actually talk to each other, but keeps you in separate rooms, you know. use a sphere and intimidation to tell you this is what's going to happen if you go

00:54:13.000 --> 00:54:16.000
to court, so you better agree to it, or your own attorney tells you that right?

00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:20.000
So you get either, no matter where it comes from, you feel like you got pushed into something.

00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:26.000
And what's ironic is that both people will come out of that feeling like they got hosed, you know, and it's like, you know.

00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:29.000
You'd think if one felt like you know they got hose and the other person must feel like Oh, I won.

00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:40.000
But that's rare. Usually both people feel like they lost you know, and and doing litigation, I mean one of the things that it taught me is that the only true win is a win-win because when you win it you know

00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:42.000
those those occasions you have as a litigation attorney, where you come at a court going.

00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:48.000
Woohoo, Iraq, you know and it feels good for about 20 min, because, you know, like you quote unquote one for your client.

00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:52.000
It's starts to ring Hollow really quickly as you see the resentment.

00:54:52.000 --> 00:55:00.000
As you see the damage that was done as you see how long term it doesn't work, so that you know to get to a true win.

00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:05.000
Both parties have to feel like they have ownership over whatever was agreed upon.

00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:11.000
Right right. I wish I wish the collaborator process was utilized more here in our State.

00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:19.000
But you know slowly. but surely I you know, when I first got into it in 2,001 I mean, nobody knew what a collaborative attorney was in my own law. partner.

00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:21.000
I came back from this training, and I told her what I had done.

00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:30.000
I was so, you know, psyched and she looks at me and she's like this really good person really fine litigator, but you know, like a woman with a beautiful heart, and she just looks at me.

00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:39.000
And she laughs, and she says, you know you want to be a lawyer, or don't you you know, she said, If you want to be a social worker, you know you can go back to school.

00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:42.000
And I was like you really don't get it you know and she didn't.

00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:46.000
She would make fun of it, and I started doing it, struggling with it at first, but I stuck with it. thank God!

00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:54.000
I stuck with it because a lot of people dropped out saying you know this doesn't work, but it wasn't that it doesn't work It's that we didn't know how to work it we didn't you know

00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:59.000
we, you know. So those of us who hung in there and eventually learned how to do it and get good at it.

00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:04.000
You know. Got to have and and now it's much easier because there are many, many mentors.

00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:07.000
But back then, what was I going to call stew web in Minnesota?

00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:16.000
I actually did once or twice, and he was very nice but but I mean I didn't have anybody local to guide me through the process, or to be my partner in a case you know.

00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:20.000
We would, you know, we would have these ridiculous discussions where it'd be like, you know you need to look in the mirror.

00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:29.000
No, you need to look in the mirror. So you know.

00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:39.000
So, anyhow, to get to this place, where practice is so gratifying, and where I feel like i'm really helping people, and where I get that kind of feedback from folks which feels so good.

00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:46.000
It took a lot of work, it took a lot of effort but it's I mean it was so worth it, and i'm just really grateful for having, you know.

00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:50.000
Been invited to train with that initial group of people.

00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:57.000
Yeah, that sounds That sounds just so exciting what I was gonna Say, though, is that that i'm sorry I lost my train of thought, you know.

00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:02.000
That's shows you i've been practicing a long time i'm old.

00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:12.000
What I wanted to say. is that it's. gotten I mean the quality of what we do in collaborative law has gotten better and better over the years, and it's gotten much much.

00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:23.000
It's much more out there now. I mean it used to be When when I first started there were there were attorneys who were like you know, that shouldn't be ethical you shouldn't be able to do that they tried to get state bars to shut

00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:41.000
a down really? yeah, absolutely. in fact, even happening in Colorado for a number of years, You know, you know over time it became a respected part of the domestic relations community, and and I think, more and more so over time there are probably a few

00:57:41.000 --> 00:57:42.000
old-timers who still go I don't I don't get it!

00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:46.000
I don't believe in it, or whatever but I mean I think the younger attorneys, I mean you know.

00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:59.000
Actually, it was funny, because early on I was I had gone to the University of Arizona law school, and that's why I was in Tucson practicing raising my kids, and and I was invited to debate.

00:57:59.000 --> 00:58:03.000
about collaborative law in from a family law class. And so the Professor invited me.

00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:07.000
And this guy, David Leebert David Leeberthal, who is one of the real big time litigators in Arizona.

00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:14.000
At the time he was like, you know, one of these guys who, you know, charged more than everyone else, and you know Aml and all that.

00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:19.000
And, you know, tremendous expertise as a law student I used to when I heard he was doing a cross-examine.

00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:21.000
I used to go watch him because he was so good at it.

00:58:21.000 --> 00:58:25.000
So I really respected this guy, so the idea of debating him was scary to me.

00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:28.000
But I talked to this. You know the guy I mentioned who invited me into this.

00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:32.000
He became a mentor, and I went to him I said Peter you know what do I do?

00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:38.000
I'm being asked. to debate you know David liberal that's kind of scary, and and he kind of coached me a little bit, he said.

00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:43.000
Well, you know, he said, Just you know like let's talk about you know the strengths and weaknesses of collaborative.

00:58:43.000 --> 00:58:50.000
And just be honest about it, and so when I went in there you know the first thing David Liberal said was you know this should be unethical.

00:58:50.000 --> 00:59:01.000
He shouldn't be allowed to do what he's doing because you know when I go into a case, I tell my clients i'm there with them till the end no matter what unless they fire me whereas you know whereas you know he's

00:59:01.000 --> 00:59:13.000
saying i'm only gonna be there with you if this works out If not, i'm going to Abandon you and I, you know, and I listened to him, and I when it was my turn to talk. I said Well, you know Mr. Leeuthol is right.

00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:22.000
In a sense, I mean he's. right that i'm not necessarily there to the end of the case, fails that is, you know, the risk of collaborative.

00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:25.000
But you know you can't just weigh the risk of collaborative in a vacuum.

00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:29.000
You know you have to weigh that against the risk of litigation.

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So the risk of collaborative or you know if we don't get to the end.

00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:37.000
The case fails, they have to start over again. the litigation, and that's horrible with new Attorneys new professionals.

00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:41.000
But you know the risks of litigation what are they you know.

00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:46.000
I mean i've seen people destroy their children emotionally fighting over the children's well-being ironically enough.

00:59:46.000 --> 00:59:58.000
I've seen people bankrupt themselves fighting over money you know it's, you know It's it's really typical, for there to be such profound harm that children you know are talking about it 20 years later in therapy and the

00:59:58.000 --> 01:00:12.000
parents don't even know sometimes I mean there's so much harm that comes out of litigation plus the cost, and the you know the you know, and the effect on other relationships on communities, because you know a family divorcing family is

01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:18.000
not just a family. There are all these people around them and I laid out, probably better than that.

01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:26.000
I'm doing now because I you know I was prepared for it. So you know, I laid out all these costs, and I said, Okay, So if you put them on a scale, you got the you know the risks.

01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:34.000
Of litigation on this side, and the risks of of collaborative over here, you know, which one seems heavier to you, and the law students totally got it.

01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:44.000
And when that happened, when the law students clearly got it, I knew that in time, you know, over time collaborative was going to become a thing, but it was good that it was gonna grow, and it was going to become respectable.

01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:46.000
And that it was going to be, you know, not just respectable.

01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:50.000
But it will, you know people would see the wisdom of it and sure enough, that's what's happened.

01:00:50.000 --> 01:01:01.000
I mean. Wow, you know, when I meet young attorneys you know, for whatever reason i'm going into family law, you know, if we talk about collaborative, they're generally open and interested.

01:01:01.000 --> 01:01:06.000
That's a good point. I remember what I I think when I became collaboratively trained back.

01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:12.000
Maybe in the early 2,01011 12 that it just seemed so.

01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:16.000
It didn't seem where it was word is now where it is just so much more respected.

01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:21.000
And just natural. Yeah, can I ask you lonnie do you So you litigate?

01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:30.000
You don't do collaborative cases no i'm mostly litigate, because, unfortunately and so how much county no one has really approached me for collaborative law, except for one time.

01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:43.000
So i'm a little bit bumped about that yeah so I mean like no one's approached me to do a collaborative law case Well, so for years nobody approached me to do a collaborative law case it

01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:51.000
doesn't work that way. Oh, okay, here's how it works people come to me, and they'll say I you know I need a divorce.

01:01:51.000 --> 01:01:55.000
Can you help them, and i'll say Ok. let's talk about it.

01:01:55.000 --> 01:02:00.000
Tell me a little bit about your case, and if it seems appropriate, i'll say you know Well, there are these different options, you know, like.

01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:03.000
So when I used to do both because for years I did both litigation and collaborative.

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I mean Now i'll just you know it's on my website, and everything. and i'll say I don't litigate.

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So let's talk about your case so we can see if i'm the right fit, or if I might be the right fit.

01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:13.000
Otherwise i'd only want to even consult with you because I don't want to take your money and for you to be just disappointed.

01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:23.000
But back when I did both, I would say you know let's. Look at the options, and i'd lay out Here's what collaborative is Here Here are the benefits of collaborative Here are the challenges of

01:02:23.000 --> 01:02:27.000
collaborative. Here are the benefits of litigation. You hear the challenges of litigation. What?

01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:32.000
What makes sense to you now? Very often they would, they would say, Oh, I get it! This makes sense.

01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:35.000
But how do I get my spouse on board? And sometimes that would be a problem.

01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:45.000
One of the things I began doing at that point was I would, if before a consultation, if somebody just reached out to me and said, I want to consult with you. i'd say okay that's one option, or I can do a meeting

01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:55.000
with both of you. Where i'm not going to give anyone legal advice. it's just an informational meeting about the different ways to divorce, and if we do that, I can do it with both of you together, and then, after that I

01:02:55.000 --> 01:03:05.000
can consult with one of you or the other but not both, and I would have them sign an agreement saying they understood what I was saying, and that you know, because I didn't want you know anybody to claim later that I consulted with both of them

01:03:05.000 --> 01:03:10.000
and then I became my party's attorney so I mean, I still have that agreement.

01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:19.000
If anybody wants it, i'm happy. to share It because that is 1 one way to get your name out. there is to, you know. be the person who gives, you know, people information I you know.

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I would charge them. I would try I would do a 2 h long meeting, because that's how long it took to fully lay out the ins and outs of all the different approaches.

01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:32.000
Everything from sitting down across the kitchen, table you know mediate the different types of cells of mediation, collaborative and all its complexity and litigation.

01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:44.000
I'd explain all 4 of them so I wanted them to come out with a really thorough understanding of each of the approaches, and when they make sense, because all of them make sense for certain kinds of cases I would want somebody to know if

01:03:44.000 --> 01:03:50.000
they went home, and they were being you know they they were pacing domestic violence that they didn't call me back and say, you know, let's do a collaborative case.

01:03:50.000 --> 01:03:54.000
They would say, You know this is the kind of case for which litigation is appropriate.

01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:59.000
So let me let me get somebody who can help me.

01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:08.000
But and that was effective for a long time, I think when I stopped doing litigation, I found that those kinds of meetings became less necessary.

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I would. Just I put it all out of my website and then I when people call me Now I just tell them what I do, and what I don't do when we talk about it, and you know, and sometimes i'll say you know you might

01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:21.000
consider you know, I don't want you to be disappointed leaving a meeting with me.

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But you might consider meeting with 2 kinds of attorneys, you know.

01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:34.000
Do a consultation with somebody like me collaborative attorney, and do a consultation with somebody who litigates because you'll get different perspectives, and then you can decide you know which which sounds like the right one for

01:04:34.000 --> 01:04:44.000
your situation. Wow! that's that's so appropriate cause it, then such different perspectives from a litigation standpoint, and the collaborative standpoint.

01:04:44.000 --> 01:04:48.000
So what what'll say? do you do just collaborative large?

01:04:48.000 --> 01:04:56.000
You mediations, too. You know I I used to do a lot of mediation and a lot of collaborative, and I and I also do what you know.

01:04:56.000 --> 01:05:01.000
Unbundled services where people come to me and Somebody would come to me and say, I've already got it figured out. Can you help me?

01:05:01.000 --> 01:05:04.000
You know, write it up, so we'd start with a consultation, make sure they really have a solid agreement.

01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:08.000
If they do so, I still do that I still do the unbundled.

01:05:08.000 --> 01:05:16.000
I do some mediation, but not much, because I find that mediation doesn't even start to hold a candle to what I can deliver as a collaborative attorney.

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When I do mediation, I do. I do a kind of collaborative mediation, so I will send them off to collaborative attorneys, both of them people.

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I trust you know, to give them good, solve legal advice without creating a fight, and who can support them through the mediation process.

01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:40.000
I also represent people in mediation when somebody else. is mediating. So i'm one of the the attorneys either in the background or present at the mediation sessions.

01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:53.000
Oh, okay, that can be powerful. I think that if I were ranking in terms of how much support people need to keep to stay out of court, the people who can do it on their own come up with agreements on their own and maybe just need some

01:05:53.000 --> 01:05:55.000
legal advice and help preparing documents they're kind of amazing!

01:05:55.000 --> 01:06:00.000
I marvel at those people. Those are the people who need the least support people who can.

01:06:00.000 --> 01:06:09.000
You know, who can do a mediation session with the kind of meat eater who lets them be in the same room and tries to facilitate healthy discussions, or has more of a therapeutic approach

01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:14.000
with. They're trying to help them really understand each other and and you know.

01:06:14.000 --> 01:06:18.000
Empathize with each other. you know that's a little bit more support.

01:06:18.000 --> 01:06:28.000
And some people can do that. Some people kind of need their attorneys there to help them with that, and if they're collaborative attorneys, we can help with that kind of process. Well, as opposed to the litigation.

01:06:28.000 --> 01:06:32.000
Style mediation, which is really more akin to court where you're you're negotiating in the shadow of the court.

01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:42.000
So what i'm talking about now is staying outside the shadow of the court helping people come to true win-win agreements that are, you know where you know they know what the court might do.

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They, you know. in other words, as an attorney I still let people know you know here's my opinion as to what the range is on.

01:06:46.000 --> 01:06:55.000
What a court could potentially do which it's broad range But but you know they might choose to do something different because they know because they're not.

01:06:55.000 --> 01:06:59.000
They're not really focusing on that they're focusing on the needs of their own family.

01:06:59.000 --> 01:07:02.000
So then, you know the folks who need to have attorneys present with them.

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That's an additional layer of support and containment If we have a mediator who's also a collaboratively trained attorney, who is really good at both mediating.

01:07:10.000 --> 01:07:13.000
And then we have 2 collaboratively trained attorneys around them.

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We've got a lot of support, in place if you want to have the full meal deal, you know.

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Then it's great to have 2 collaboratively trained attorneys coach a child specialist of financial neutral.

01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:30.000
Now, now, we've got a lot of support around this family and and Rory.

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How can people get a hold of you? They need to contact you for for services.

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Oh, okay, Well, I is my phone number, which is 3, 6, Oh, 7, 4, 6, 0, 4, 0 0.

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My, my website is creative divorce com. and if they want to email me, they can email me.

01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:48.000
Roy Martin at create divorce Com: Okay, Creative divorce com.

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I love that that's awesome? Well, thank you so much for your time, Roy, and thank you for sharing your thoughts. and your wisdom about collaborative law.

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Learn so much from you today. Do you have any final bless words about why people should choose to use a collaborative process, or what they can, what they can stand to gain from it? Chris?

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Let me just say thanks so much for doing this, Lonnie.

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I know I know you spend a lot of time creating these these these podcasts, and you know, hopefully, people get a lot of value from them.

01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:22.000
So. it's a real kindness that you do this awesome, too.

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I appreciate it. you know I would say that you know if if you know to me litigation is now like the hospital emergency room, i'm grateful that there that I have colleagues who are willing to

01:08:35.000 --> 01:08:40.000
litigate, because I don't want to do It and there are cases that need to be litigated.

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Those are the cases where there's you know where for one party's hiding assets, hiding income running up debts, committing acts of domestic violence, harming the children those sorts of things those cases need to be

01:08:50.000 --> 01:08:58.000
litigated. If you you know if you're in a situation where there's a possibility you may be able to work together.

01:08:58.000 --> 01:09:04.000
Then I would say, get come to come to people like me to the collaborative community sooner rather than later.

01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:14.000
Don't wait, because what happens is you know the fear can build, and fear feeds on itself, and the containment starts to break down so. by.

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So if both spouses talk to a collaborative attorney early in the process, that in and of itself will create more containment, you may be able to sit down then and negotiate a settlement, that you couldn't do before because

01:09:24.000 --> 01:09:32.000
you both gotten legal advice from somebody who unders conflict resolution, or, if you need more help, you have, you have.

01:09:32.000 --> 01:09:38.000
You now know what the options are, so you can bring in that additional support. That can be a full collaborative case.

01:09:38.000 --> 01:09:40.000
It can be, you know it can be a form of mediation.

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It can be, you know it can be lots of different things.

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But you know, by talking to the people who you do this work, the peacemaking work.

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So you know the collaborative professionals, whether they be collaborative attorneys or collaborative, You know therapists, you know.

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We can. We can help you to figure out how to dissolve your marriage in that healthy way.

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So come, come sooner rather than later. Come sooner rather than later.

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For for conflict resolution, help. Yeah. Wow! wow! Well, thank you so much.

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Again, Roy. and again, if you need to get a hold of rural, you can contact him at creative divorce dot com.

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His website. And thank you again, all out there for listening to Another episode of the Ociona law podcast we're in.

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We talk about all things that intersect in the areas of family law, divorce. I'm.

01:10:30.000 --> 01:10:40.000
Lonnie, Akiana, Lonnie Ociona.