018 - Discussing The Three Coaching Buckets With Former Divorce/Co-Parent Coach and Author, Karen Bonnell

Consultant, writer, and mentor Karen S. Bonnell returns to the Akiona Law Podcast! Karen discusses her three Coaching Buckets for parents and dives into her most recent book, which she co-wrote with Patricia Papernow, Ph.D.: The Stepfamily Handbook: From Dating, to Getting Serious, to Forming a "Blended Family."  

Transcript

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And give myself a countdown. got that down okay So let's begin, and 5, 4, 3 2, and one hello welcome to another podcast of Akiona law within this podcast we talk about old things that intersect in the areas.

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Family law and divorce, and with me today i'm very excited.

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I have a return guest karen bonnell. karen is a retired psychiatric nurse petitioner.

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She's also a former divorce coach and mediator.

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Now she is a consultant or writer and a mentor.

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Her books include the Coach Parenting Handbook, the parenting plan, Workbook, and the Step Family Handbook.

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She also has a shows, has a video series about the parenting plan workbook, and you can also follow her on a Youtube channel.

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Karen what's the name of you or 2 of your Youtube channel.

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It's just coach karen it's my name So then anyone can.

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Anyone can access it right from the website if they go on to the

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Excuse me on the books page there's all kinds of resources Lonnie, including podcasts like the one we're doing.

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We'll definitely show up there and as well as the Youtube Channel and the books and Karen's website is W.

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W. W. Karen, K. A. R. E. N. S. S.

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Is in 2. Okay? Well, now, and that spelled B. O. N.

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E. L. L. Com. So just type in Karen S.

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Well, now, did I see it right you're doing great thank you so much?

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Yes, Karen aspoddell com.

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And honestly, if you type in karen coach Perkland, you're gonna find me as well, it's pretty easy just because I've been at this for a while.

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You have been at this for a while, and I think I could remember that as well.

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Karen coach kirkland Okay, so let's We're gonna get started today. Everyone we're gonna talk about Karen step parenting him step family handbook.

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Which is great. It was fantastic i'm not in that situation. I've been married for I don't even know.

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Wait. Let me think what years it's totally 22 i'm gonna make 22 years.

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But even reading that I thought it was eye-opening and just like Wow, so informative, just great.

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But before we want to dive into that I want to get into what you're doing right now, because you're doing because right you you kind of transition for being a divorce coach animator to doing consulting work and

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what exactly is the consulting work that you're doing you know things money for the chance just to kind of chat about that I'm offering to parents well into professionals.

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But for parents i'm really offering what I call the one time. consult, and that is an opportunity to sit down for 90 min and really get your most urgent questions.

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A address. So 90 min like let's go we're gonna Rock, and we're all working at we're gonna get really down right down into building that platform, whether that's for people who are just initiating a separation

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and divorce, and they really want to talk about things like, How do we tell our kids?

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And how do we choose divorce professionals how would we find Bonnie, for example, if we need exc excuse me if we need an attorney who's gonna care as much about our the outcome for our children as

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well do, because that's important so it might be around separation and divorce, it might be around people who are post decree, and they really want to get co-parenting.

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Right. they're through their divorce but they realize gosh we're just missing some skills or it's a little rocky, and we can't sort of start out some conflict.

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We need some ideas. Then we do Co. parenting and then the third area. That, you know, is, you know, and you've already mentioned, is step wise, which is stepping in to step family which starts with hey?

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I'm a parent i'm dating or Oh, my gosh! i'm dating a parent I have no idea what that means.

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They have children. So those are the 3 sort of buckets.

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If you will, that are tailored to the needs of each parent or parenting peer that seeks to consult.

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Okay, so let me let me see if I got these 3 buckets right.

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So the first bucket would essentially be and i'm just kind of thinking this of a client that really reached out to me basically said, Hey, I want to me. I would like to break the divorce news to my husband, do you have a

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resource for me like what? How can we tell the kids so that'd be kind of one bucket right we call that divorce?

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Well, if I want to divorce well that's in that bucket, Yeah.

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And then the next bucket would be in this comes up a lot of times, too.

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There's some how do you say this in the road of co-parenting there's some buffs, and there may be some hostility.

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Where you have another co-parent that's extremely reactive.

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How do I deal with this? How do I deal with someone who's always kind of just in this accusatory blaming critical mode, And they could reach out to you as well now, absolutely, and we call that co-parent strong and that might

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be Co. parenting, co-parent, strong, divorce.

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Well co-parent, strong. here is the thing. Sometimes people still will work together that co-parent who has been hard to get along with.

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They actually want to do it better. but they kind of feel like that other person needs to do some things different.

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Sometimes I work with people as a pair in that particular on time console, sometimes it's individually.

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Someone may be dealing with a co-parent who is absolutely unwilling to work together.

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Well, then, we need strategies for that, too, don't we so yeah, either.

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In the last bucket. So we we're gonna repeat those 2 buckets divorce.

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Well is number one. Number 2 is copparent strong, and the third bucket would be setting for .

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Step 5. Yeah, we're gonna use wisdom our wisdom that.

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Why do we know about restructuring families we're gonna step wise?

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One step at odd time into that new family structure that we long for.

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We want to fall in love. We want to have a sense of family, but it's not necessarily with our children's other parent.

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Hmm. Okay, I love those I I like this terminologies Karen. So you've got you've got them folks. We've got one bucket is divorce. Well, so you can talk to karen about that

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the second bucket you can reach out to Karen, for is number 2, co-parent, strong. The last bucket that you can reach out to caring about also is number 3.

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Stepwise. And speaking of step wise let's get into the step family handbook that that you've written, Do you wish I can't.

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Oh, my gosh, I don't know it just kind of Oh, I don't even know how to say this. It just kind of blew my mind just kind of like moving forward.

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This is what you need to consider parents and even if you're not in a relationship right now.

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Right let's just say the parents just let's let's just say they're 8 months into the divorce process, and it's messy and they're trying to figure out a final parenting plan I can

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see a parent saying what I need to do with this now i'm not even gonna think about dating.

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But it's important that they do think about it now there's just so many tools there, you know it's really true line, and honestly just touching on that.

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We were forming a parenting plan and we're kind of you know, just sort of up to our neck in our current family.

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We're often thinking about. Well, what are we gonna do and it's just the 4 of us do you mean the 2 children right?

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And so one of my jobs is to help people get their head up just enough to look a little bit further toward the horizon.

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Because guess what? in 2 to 5 years one or both of those parents is more than likely.

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This is research, by the way, more than likely to be in a new relationship, and that person may or may not have children; but they, as for they may or may not have a parenting plan.

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But if we're not designing a parenting plan with the awareness that this original 4 may include other people at some point, there's going to be a lot of strive conflict and disappointment down the road, and

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i'll just give you a really quick example if we toggle together every Christmas Eve and every Christmas.

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In other words, you're gonna have the kids on Christmas evening i'm any of the kids on Christmas morning, and then we're gonna flip that the next year, yeah 2 to 5 years down the road.

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We're both in new families, and guess what no other families are really functioning like that.

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Our children. aren't having a smooth and easy experience of Christmas, and either of their families use their family with their mom or their family with their other parent.

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Whatever the case may be. but we didn't think about that we didn't think down the road what that might look like when we resettled into a new sense of family.

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Yeah, I encourage parents to at least be aware that within 2 to 5 years one or both of them will recouple.

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Yeah. And then you know that's an interesting topic what would you suggest in in terms of because it did?

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It is quite common impairing plans to alternate something like that.

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So what would your suggestion be in yeah alternating definitely I think it's really important that both parents get to celebrate the important and significant culture and religious holidays with their children?

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So we're talking about you know letting children rest into a full arc of maybe, say, the Christmas season with one parent.

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So half of that midwinter break in one year, and then they can rest in with their other parent.

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The following year for the entire Christmas season and that way kids aren't being pushed between Keller and post right Now this isn't to say that in the first couple of years when there really isn't someone else that we need to

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think about, or other children that we need to consider that i'm not inviting you to say, Hey, i've got the kitchens here for Christmas, Lonnie?

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And I am going to be in town with them i'm wondering would you like them for Christmas dinner?

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Would you like to come and get them it, you know, one in the afternoon and help them overnight until the 26?

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Would that be interesting to you We could still have that conversation i'm just not putting it in a legal parenting plan, because in 3 or 4 more years I want to go to Park City with the kids, because my mine no beloved their

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family. Christmas is in Park City because everybody skis well my kids can't go.

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If we've somehow legislated this other story does that happen? No, that makes sense.

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And I think that's really partial it's it's just it's so hard in the beginning when like I love what you said in terms of when we're doing a parenting planner people are going through

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divorce, or they're only seeing right now because it's just so hard to function.

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You can only focus on right now. but I definitely hear what you're saying about kind of putting on that forward lens.

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When you do get involved in relationship, how it is more beneficial to maybe, instead of breaking up that Christians break in half, because that's what parents all want to do at that initial separation like I can't be apart

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from my kids. I need to break it up. I need to have either the first half of the winter break. the Christmas break with the children are at least a second half, you know.

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So one parent gets Christmas Eve for that first half and then the other parent gets Christmas Day, and so forth.

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It's just so hard to and I I do agree when I do like alternating the entire Christmas break, because then you have a huge chunk of time with the kids. I feel like in the beginning of the divorce it's hard

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for people to kind of accept that cause I think they're stuck on the fact that I won't see my kids for this Christmas.

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Something like that. and you know what we're mixing a little bit of apples that oranges.

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So we're just gonna tease that apart for a minute since you brought it up.

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If we literally divide the break in half which is very common and I do support that actually, because it's 17 overnight, it's a long state.

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Now my international parents, someone who needs to go to South Africa for that break, because that's where the family is, we're not dividing it, or we're at least setting it up that They can claim the entire break to make that trip to

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South Africa. but that's kind of the exception not the rule right?

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But if we literally divide that break in half, Lonnie.

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Then we have Christmas and Christmas. He is fully in the first tab.

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So our transition day is either the 2620, seventh, or 28. but we can still each have half of the break to do something special.

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Something gets all the Christmas. somebody gets all on new year's we reverse that to volunteer.

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But we don't do or what I encourage parents not to do is make the transition on Christmas Day or at the end of Christmas Eve.

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That's where we get into trouble. make the transition no earlier than the 26.

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It's more likely going to be the 20 seventh Sometimes the 28 depending on.

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When the school breaks starts right and that's all technology that breaking the break in half was let's split Christmas and Christmas even have call that the transition. date.

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It doesn't work that's what doesn't I hear you definitely, sometimes drive views.

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I like. I prefer it more when parenting plans use the the halfway point of the child's winter break as that split. Exactly.

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That's exactly. Yeah, no, and I hear you too it definitely makes sense.

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True as the the kids get older. and you they get into

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The gain more need pendant, and they do start learning things like skiing or snowboarding. just the ability to trips for much longer time. Right?

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Exactly. Yeah. beautiful. Yeah. So gosh, going back into the Step Family handbook, though.

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One thing I wanted to talk about was and I think this is Why, it's important for people to take a look at it now, even if you're not even considering dating is that.

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You bring up in chapter 4, strengthen your relationship skills. And this is someone What I love about.

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This is that strengthening your relationship skills can be used at any point and the advice that you give Karen is so spot on it could be used for someone who was married who's not even thinking about divorce it could be used

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for people who are going through a divorce right now, and is a need to know how to.

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How do I improve my relationship skills with the other parents so we're going to dive in because you brought up 5 really good skills.

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I just pretty much like highlighted everything i'm like you know what I'm gonna find with my husband. Ken.

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Is it what it look weird if I like pull up that highlight, and I read it in there while i'm actually in the fight? because one of them is this: okay?

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The first one is, calm yourself in the storm, you say, take a deep breath, which is so hard to do, but so important. right?

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Right, call yourself in the storm you know what's really hard is when we're when we're over excited or winter triggered. you know that's a common work right triggered.

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We actually stop using our prefrontal cortex, we start to function from a more primitive part of our brain.

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That part of Us that is gonna fight or is gonna flee or is gonna get scared, or it's gonna over adapted.

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And now, suddenly, i'm just gonna abdicate all of my needs.

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None of those are functional ways to have a difficult conversation.

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So as soon as we engage a conversation from a place of being triggered, or being dysregulated in some way, or already often running to the races, or already, you know, kind of we just sort of fell off the communication cliff if

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you will. So So our first step is always just is always to say let's get into a state calm, even if that means I have to say to you.

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You know what, Lonnie, I am so frustrated with you right now.

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I've got to walk away. i've got to pull myself together. so I can come back to you with my whole cell to solve this problem because that's what I want I want to solve this problem with you So always alert

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someone who do. I have to say that calmly or can I yell that yeah, that you can tell that.

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But you're gonna mean it and you're gonna turn around and walk away.

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And then you are gonna come back as you said you would and Here's the thing.

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Don't ever walk away, slam down the phone, Go out the front door without assuring your beloved that you know you are out to lunch.

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You need to go Collect yourself and you will be back. this is not an attempt to really hurts someone by sort of projecting the idea that they're gonna lose your love that's not what It's about I am not okay

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with having this conversation now, and I need to get okay so that I can be back and be present to you.

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I love this part. Calm yourself in the storm. What I tend to do is

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I take a breath and I close my eyes. Yeah, yeah, and decrease in decrease Input: when we our eyes is with a very common and useful strategy by the way, and we slow down our breathing we close our eyes we might

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even put our head down a little bit so that we can diminish what we're hearing that actually helps with news right and we center in our heart.

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I'm looking down into my heart, I want to center in my core.

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Now I can come back to you and say you are really mad at me, and i'm really sorry.

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Let's talk about it right now. we can have a conversation let's practice doing that right now.

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Are everyone. let's just take a deep breath closer eyes and look down and just pause moment.

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I feel better ready. that's really it's a way to come home to yourself, and you can use that when you're toddler is refusing to get their diaper changed, or or your 4 year old will not put on

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their shoes. I promise you it's. so versatile when your teenager is sassing you back, cause you ask them to take out the rubbish. Exactly. Exactly.

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Exactly. Oh, goodness! and then your next skill is listen to understand.

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And in this you mentioned how, when we listen we're not really listening because we're thinking about our response, or we're judging or criticizing.

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So I thought that was really important. Listen to understand right you know it's funny.

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We often feel like if I really understand you then you're gonna think I agree with you, and those 2 things are completely unrelated.

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My ability to truly understand. You says to you that I get what's going on for you.

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I really get you, And and when I love someone, Lonnie, I want them to know.

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I get them, whether it's my kids or you know a partner, or a spouse, or whatever, or a colleague.

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If you were to be upset with me, I would want you to know before anything else that I get you.

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So when I listen to understand, I try and close off all those extra voices in my own head. don't want to fight with you, or defend myself, or justify what I did, or whatever the case may be, I wanna shut those down and I want

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to say to myself, what is going on with Lonnie?

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I really wanna get this So i'm listening to understand and the way that i'm gonna let you know that that I understand is i'm gonna beat it back to you i'm gonna say Gosh Lonnie

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you're really mad at me for whatever you really mad at me for and you know what you're gonna do when I feed that back to you in just that way.

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Notice when I Tip, you're really mad at me you're really scared.

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You're really whatever do you know what you're gonna do you're into this If i've got you if I've got the bull's eye, if I have really understood you you're gonna go like this and if I am

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out to lunch, missing the mark whatever you know what you're gonna do?

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You're gonna go no and then, i'm gonna say Lonnie. Try it again, because it's really important to me that I get you.

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I wanna understand what's going on and we'll try it again.

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So. Yes, listen to understand. You know one of the most significant human experiences that any of us can have is to be seen to be understood.

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Incredibly powerful medicine. We don't wanna awful to be.

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Everybody wants to be seen, and to be understood that's right wow!

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And I think that goes hand in hand with your next point.

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Listen to understand your next. your relationship. Skill number 3 is switch out of defensiveness right?

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If Pop You're being attacked, Yeah, you might be being attacked, some of might be really bad.

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You were really scared about something you did or wants to send you into justifying your existence right?

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And so i'm gonna switch out of being defensive because first i'm listening to understand.

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I'm gonna make sure that you know I understand you and that I get you that I see you. And then I'm gonna ask you, Lonnie.

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Can I tell you what was going on. in my side i'm gonna invite you Now i'm gonna invite you to prepare yourself to listen and understand right.

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I'm not just gonna come back swinging because Guess what You're not prepared for me to come back swinging.

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I'm just gonna get a triggered listener on the other side.

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Who's gonna defend themselves. So that transition when I when I move out of defensiveness, is to say to you, all right.

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Are you? Are you ready to hear from My side? can I share with you? what was going on for me?

00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:15.000

It's a question, because if you were to say to me. no I don't care what is going on for you.

00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:28.000

Well, then, there's no point in going forward so for example It could be like, I I hear that you're really upset when I was late, and picking up the kids can I explain my side.

00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:37.000

Something like that person might say, Well, sure, why were you late again for the Mit 1,000 times right.

00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:47.000

And then you're just gonna take a graph hey? nicole Here's what happened Here's what happened I was on a phone call.

00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:58.000

It was a work emergency. I thought I could end it in time. but I didn't, and I just was stuck in torn because because it's person needed the input my input to solve this problem.

00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:12.000

I didn't know what to do right and you know what else? Here's what else you're gonna say, and I realize that that impacted you. I realized that by me being late to pick up the kids, I am impacted your

00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:19.000

schedule. I screwed up your plans and you know what I get that that's not okay and inconvenient.

00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:24.000

And for that I apologize. I will continue to work at doing better.

00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:30.000

Wow, right, you used it because then you. not only cause then you just didn't end it about me.

00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:33.000

Well, this is what my schedule is like you under you.

00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:37.000

Then tell that person. I understand how it peck, how impact it.

00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:42.000

Your schedule, and I apologize for that I apologize being you seen you.

00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:50.000

Thanks for this and that's not assigned I think I I sure go with this, too, in terms of like, you know, admitting admitting wrong.

00:23:50.000 --> 00:24:01.000

It's vulnerability and that's different that's difficult was because when you're vulnerable, I almost kind of see as a sign of weakness because people can hurt you and then i'm trying to well.

00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:09.000

i'm learning and understanding that being vertical is actually sign a strength, it it absolutely is a sinus strain.

00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:15.000

It's also the opportunity to rebuild trust and to to rebuild a kind of

00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:21.000

I wanna say intimacy, but I don't mean romantic intimacy, I mean human intimacy.

00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:31.000

The ability to really get each other to feel connected to realize that you know what we're parents together for. these kids, and there's no way for me to take advantage of you.

00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:38.000

I I don't want to do that and I realize I did do that today when I stayed on that call when I should have been picking up the kids.

00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:46.000

I took advantage of your goodwill. Oh, I did I took advantage of it right.

00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:50.000

I just took it. I didn't ask you if I could be late.

00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:58.000

I just took it. it's took it yeah how we're impacting one another, particularly in coppering.

00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:07.000

We have to appreciate that the kind of the kind of things that we might have done during a marriage that were acceptable right because we were married.

00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:14.000

Those those rules don't apply anymore this is a business relationship I don't just take things from you.

00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:20.000

I don't just assume that you're gonna do things for me without asking.

00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:27.000

Yeah, that's powerful right there you can't make those same assumptions or presumptions that you did during the marriage.

00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:33.000

Well how much it goes back to where we want to be seen and heard. and I think that goes to your next relationship.

00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:38.000

Skill. Number 4 is balance, 5 positives for one negative exactly Exactly.

00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:51.000

You know. this is with our children this is with our beloved, and, you know, keep in mind that these 5 skills were written in the step family handbook for couples who are just starting to date.

00:25:51.000 --> 00:26:01.000

We're saying, hey? before you become a stepfather why you get kids involved, really make sure you sharpen these skills cause guess what in a step family you're going to need every single one of them.

00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:08.000

You. You are really I would argue in you, And you know this, Lonnie. We need this in every intimate relationship.

00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:23.000

And again, romantic or otherwise, any important relationship. These 5 skills apply so 5 positives for every negative is for me to remember that when you drop the kids off and you remember to put in the goggles and do all the things that you

00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:29.000

do, and maybe you've done a little extra this time you've actually picked up an additional set of flip-flops for me.

00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:30.000

Water shoes for the kids and you've just said hey?

00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:34.000

I put that extra pair of water shoes in the bag you know what I'm gonna do.

00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:40.000

I am gonna make sure that you know I appreciate you that's a pause.

00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:45.000

How many negatives in a covariant chain relationship, or in any intimate partnership?

00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:56.000

Are we quick to judge the things that somebody does wrong, and we forget to say to our beloved, who has made us a beautiful meatloaf dinner, even if mantle is not our favorite?

00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:04.000

To say, I just really appreciate the time and and effort you put into making dinner tonight, right?

00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:19.000

Those simple things are those 5 positives that are gonna outweigh the occasional time where we're gonna say what the heck, right what went wrong, or I don't want you to do x bye bye and

00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:23.000

it's it's just a habit we teach our kids to say, please, and thank you.

00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:28.000

We teach our to be appreciate. tip and we often don't do it ourselves.

00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:36.000

You know that's a good point how we all take for granted the people that we care about.

00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:45.000

That's a good point We do often take for granted people that we care about no appreciation. but every I think it goes back again where people want to be seen and understood.

00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:50.000

And that's where the appreciation comes in for the little things as well.

00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:57.000

And it just the phrase that pops in my mind is, be slow to judge or criticize, but quick to praise.

00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:09.000

There you go and that's how we're a very good habit of life with anyone, and everyone could be this person at the store who's helping you check out that maybe is a little buffalo it's like whoa you know

00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:17.000

be careful. This person doesn't need more criticism maybe they need a little extra positive today, right?

00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:21.000

And I think especially to 1 point to remember, too, I know in terms of the Step Family Handbook.

00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:29.000

That's how this is written. But I think what she also said to the balance of these positives, for the negative also applies to relationships with children.

00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:43.000

Yeah, cause it's so easier I think sometimes as parents just do kind of, you know, almost come down on the kids on what they're not doing instead of just praising them for what they are doing there's an old

00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:58.000

parenting adage. lonnie that says catch children the catch children doing, you know, doing what's right And so what we often know do is we stay quiet when kids are doing the right thing like they're basically doing their homework

00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:05.000

right, and they're just like we just Don't say a thing right instead of walking over little Peck on the head, you know little kiss on the top of their head.

00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:12.000

Just say i'm so proud of you you're handling this it's such a lovely independent way.

00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:20.000

Walk away. it's not a 21 comes salute it's just, and it's just an acknowledgement.

00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:23.000

And even if you give them a peck on the head and they're like Mom, what are you doing?

00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:29.000

Go away you're bothering me Exactly doesn't matter That's a teenager's response. That's exactly right.

00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:33.000

Then you know that you've done exactly the right thing for a 14 year old.

00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:41.000

You've irritated them and they love it I know I love it when I irritate my kids, because then i'm not like, Oh, come on, i'm like how house.

00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:49.000

You're supposed to respond. Oh, gosh and the last point that you bring in for the relationship skills so so far recovered.

00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:55.000

One. Calm yourself in the storm. 2 is listen to understand. 3 is switch out.

00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:01.000

The defensiveness. forest balance, 5 positives with 4, one negative, and the last point.

00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:06.000

The fifth point is repaired to hertz right That's tough.

00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:10.000

It can be really it can be really here's where you know.

00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:15.000

Let's go back to something you said earlier lonnie about sometimes. it's really hard to admit mistakes.

00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:21.000

Yeah, yeah, and here's the thing there's a difference between intention and impact.

00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:26.000

I may never, in fact, I know I don't ever intend to be hurtful.

00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:31.000

I know that I mean I live my life with a lot of diligence around that.

00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:46.000

I also know that I heard people not because I intend to but because there's the difference between my intentions, and sometimes how those land with someone else, or maybe I didn't know and I unintentionally hurt someone

00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:51.000

it's very important to be able to understand the impact that you've had on another person.

00:30:51.000 --> 00:31:00.000

We'll go back to that. I took that emergency phone call. You know what kind of work I do. You want me to be good at what my job and I help support this family.

00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:05.000

How can you be critical of me for being late to pick up the kids?

00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:14.000

We're going back to that example for a moment right that would that that the intention is that I wanna make sure I can continue to financially support this family.

00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:28.000

The impact when I took that call is I really disadvantaged my co-parent, And now their plans that we're going from the 5 o'clock pickup on, have just been cascaded.

00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:39.000

Forward. they might have actually missed an important appointment that they're now financially responsible for maybe they were going to see their therapist, and there's a no client cancellation fee for for not not

00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:45.000

attending those downstream effects are on us regardless of our intention.

00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:50.000

So if there's repair to be made I come to you and you can look.

00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:56.000

I, This cost me to miss my therapy appointment which I will now be financially responsible for.

00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:02.000

I'm gonna say to you Oh, my gosh no I need to help with that.

00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:12.000

I am so sorry mind doing this impacted you in that way, and as now caused that downstream impact.

00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:20.000

No, it may not always be that tiny or clear what the downstream impact is but I'm still gonna take responsibility for it.

00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:25.000

And own my part of the repair. What can I do?

00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:31.000

What would be helpful. Is there something that you need from me that will repair this?

00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:34.000

Because guess what you matter to me. I might not love you.

00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:41.000

I might not even like you but you're right you're the person, and more time on co-parents.

00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:47.000

Of course, if you're my step if you're my step couple, you know my partner, and a new step couple.

00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:57.000

I really care that you feel like I completely bailed on our dinner plans to go to my daughter's cheerleading trouts that I found out about last minute.

00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:05.000

You're expecting us to be on a date I call you last minute and say she made the cut i'm heading over to the High School for cheerleading trials.

00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:14.000

Sit there like chopped liver because that's what the impact is the impact to my partner, who is waiting for a luscious dinner date. Is it?

00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:18.000

They feel like they were dropped like a hot cake.

00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:25.000

I better. I better repair that I better realize the impact even though it's the right decision.

00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:29.000

It was the right decision to go to cheerleading tryouts.

00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:43.000

It didn't doesn't change it has an impact and then I know a 2 in terms of these 5 interpersonal relationships. and with the with this step parent it goes it translates into what you're talking about an

00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:55.000

insider and an outsider right that's how that how that new. Then you partner, can a lot of times feel like I feel as an outsider, because it's a tough.

00:33:55.000 --> 00:34:07.000

It's a tough look like you mentioned in the book it's tough when you're the parent with the kids, and you're trying to balance the needs and attentions of the kids versus your new partner right

00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:11.000

that's exactly right you know when you've got that 14 year old. Who's acting up at home?

00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:27.000

Let's just fast forward to we're now spending a lot of time together, me and my new beloved and my 14 year old, and my 14 year olds being a shit because because that can happen you know that creates what we call a

00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:30.000

stuck insider that parent in between the 2 really important people.

00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:35.000

To them is stuck inside. I you know, rock and a hard place.

00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:39.000

That feeling of Oh, my gosh I think't know what to do here.

00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:49.000

I can only do the best I can and that's why step families Step family is complicated, and it's not for the faint of heart.

00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:56.000

And that's why Patricia papernell wonderful Wonderful Step Family, International step, family expert, She and I wrote this book.

00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:01.000

She spent 30 years researching and working with step families much the way I did with Co.

00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:09.000

Parenting. so together we have the whole arc and she's like step family boom.

00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:15.000

So perfect, perfect, perfect meeting of the 2 great minds. There you go.

00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:33.000

Yeah, I notice, too, it goes into what one of the suggestions in your book was waiting at least 4 to 6 months before injured before even thinking of introducing his partner, because you talk about how about especially in the beginning

00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:41.000

you're in this heady love infatuation stage you want, you know you want to take your time.

00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:57.000

You wanna take your time and make sure that once you get past that initial lust field romance that you has something tangible, and so to wait for 6 months at at the at the minimum And again then you talk about how this is one thing

00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:04.000

i'd like to and you you talk about how a lot of times we're so unlike we're excited.

00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:15.000

We want to push. We want to push this relationship onto our kids. but we really have to step back and be cognizant of our kids reactions and not force it upon them right? right? you know.

00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:23.000

Don't you wish that your kids are as excited about you falling in love as you are, and here's the deal that is so rare.

00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:29.000

It picked almost never happens, almost never let me repeat that.

00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:36.000

So for children, especially especially you know, young children, but honestly, our adult children have many of the same issues.

00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:41.000

Their younger age. Mates have we choose, They find it disconcerting.

00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:44.000

They feel like you're changing they feel like you are switching loyalties.

00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:51.000

They feel like they're gonna get less of you there's all kinds of responses that kids have that we need to understand.

00:36:51.000 --> 00:37:00.000

That as excited as we are they feel like they're losing they don't feel like they're gaining They did not choose this person right.

00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:04.000

They just did not, and he's the thing to lay for 4 year olds.

00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:13.000

Let's just take it to light for 4 year old because I could hear the parents in the background going Well, my 4 year old loves my new girlfriend, or my dear boyfriend right? Yes, of course it's called the

00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:26.000

honeymoon. So 4 year olds love that you have another adult in your life who wants to pay attention to them that wears off here's the other thing that 4 year old, goes out the text of their other people and their other

00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:44.000

parent is hands on hips What do You mean you've brought another adult into our 4 year old's life, and they're painting her toenails conflict initiated because we've started 2,000 too fast so

00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:50.000

much in a way that people end up feeling disrespected so It's complicated.

00:37:50.000 --> 00:38:02.000

It's, super important that we slow down we go step by step We call it stepwise for a reason, because there's lots of landmines, and they're in a burden and nobody wants to step on it. but they're right there.

00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:09.000

For the stepping, and that's it speaking of introducing the new partner to the children.

00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:16.000

You also bring up a really good point, where make sure you give your co-parent the heads up first.

00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:26.000

Never have it come from the children right because I think people don't realize, for one thing, it's a little bit disrespectful as a parent to hear it from your kids.

00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:30.000

Not only that, you know our children are so smart and so intuitive.

00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:39.000

They're, gonna be they're gonna feel that reaction if that's that other co-parent isn't happy or surprised or shocked.

00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:47.000

And so the kids are being placed in the middle inadvertently of like you said a co-parent, co-parenting conflict.

00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:57.000

Exactly, you know, oftentimes we don't want to tell our co-parent about a new romantic partner for a couple of reasons, and they're almost all adult oriented.

00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:08.000

They don't deserve to know it's my personal life. It's none of their business like we've heard all of those I don't see it right, and this has nothing to do of course it's none of their business.

00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:23.000

Of course, all of those things are true on an adult level, but on the parenting level, on co-parenting level as a parenting team, they need to know so that we can protect the kids from any potential emotional reaction that our coherent may

00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:34.000

have, and if we know that our co-parent is just gonna lose their minds when they find out that I'm actually dating the person they suspected I was having an affair with.

00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:42.000

But I didn't deny it through my entire marriage right So these are the complicated stories.

00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:58.000

We we right? if we to you karen and I welcome that because that needs to be on pet. there's a good example of Why, we don't have children carrying that information through the front door because

00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:06.000

the level of emotional impact that kids now feel a they feel responsible for what they just did to their other parent.

00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:14.000

I did that by saying something i'm responsible that's not sense. Children should never feel that the other is otherwise.

00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:22.000

They feel like they need to keep a secret and children. should never be asked to keep a secret from either of their parents.

00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:28.000

That's actually dangerous over time. if kids feel like they need to keep secrets.

00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:34.000

And that's what think I like your book because it gives guidance to the parent about.

00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:40.000

Okay, when you're introducing your your significant other tier other co-parent, it's not as if you have to provide.

00:40:40.000 --> 00:41:02.000

Okay, first, middle last name data birth. How many people in their family like you get people advice about what to share at certain points in time, and how much a little bit more. And So I think that's really helpful and

00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:05.000

instructive for people, maybe kind of feeling overwhelmed like oh, no!

00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:20.000

I've got to tell my my co-pairing and then I've got to provide them like with 5 information about this person that maybe they don't need to know cause me It's just the first name exactly and here's

00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:26.000

the deal it we're not gonna be you know taking the kids away on vacation together in month 3 of our dating relationship.

00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:35.000

Or if you get about that and you're listening to Lonnie and I right now I want you to rethink that, and please call me because that is going to do a couple of things.

00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:39.000

One is you're gonna regret it number 2 it's really putting kids in a situation.

00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:42.000

They're not ready for they'll be extraordinarily uncomfortable with.

00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:47.000

But it's going to freak out a coherent and you know frankly, reasonably so.

00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:59.000

Put that shoe put that you on the other foot your co-parent is brought another adult, and they're now traveling with your children to way on a vacation with less than 3 months, and haven't had any

00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:05.000

conversations. you're not gonna be happy it doesn't feel responsible.

00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:13.000

And you're cancer, the single most important thing to be responsible to one thing I liked, and you always bring these really good examples to kind of help.

00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:28.000

People kind of adjust their thinking. One good example that you brought in terms of like the, you know, being a parent and forcing almost this new partner on your kid. You say, imagine if your child had a best friend and your chile said, okay, my best friend.

00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:39.000

is going to come over every afternoon. they're gonna sleep over on the weekends, and then they're going to trip with us to Disneyland like how you like how would you as a parent feel wouldn't you feel

00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:43.000

overwhelmed, and then you say that's how your child, is feeling right.

00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:57.000

So step back it's so true relationships relationships have to be built, and there's no light switch on relationships, and the fact that I've fallen in love with them.

00:42:57.000 --> 00:42:59.000

Someone does not cause a light switch to go out for my children.

00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:15.000

Right, and the older children are, the more time they need to become familiar with and to build a relationship with the new adult people in mind. in particular pretensions and early teens and middle teams have absolutely no interest in an additional parent they already feel like They

00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:26.000

have 2 tubes, many parents, most of the time too, many parents I've got my mom and my dad enough already.

00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:42.000

So if you if you bring in a partner who now thinks or believes, or has some concept that they're gonna operate as a parent, there's one of those landmines it doesn't work and that's one thing to

00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:50.000

I like I there's so many good things that I love about this book is that it also tells for one it gives it, gives instructions, not instructions.

00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:59.000

It gives advice. It gives suggestions about I didn't want to introduce your child to your partner like after how many months and the next step is okay.

00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:07.000

Then that maybe plan a weekend outing. Then, after so much time, plan that, you know, introduce the 2 kids to each other.

00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:14.000

If your partner has kids, then maybe at this next stage, after the search amount of time, introduce maybe the longer vacations.

00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:27.000

But and this part is really important, too, is that you also tell parents what to look for in terms of your kids responses at certain ages.

00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:36.000

So you, as a parent, can be aware, if my kid is responding this way, this is what it means about how they feel about my new partner.

00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:45.000

Okay, and the impact that that that adult is having on our relationship our parent child relationship.

00:44:45.000 --> 00:45:01.000

That's the critical piece whether they like or don't like that new person is probably not even assessed as much as i'm scared that i'm losing you to Tyler or evelyn or whoever

00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:14.000

it is i'm afraid of how different you behave around them than when you used to just be my dad, or you used to just be my mom, and that's what's really unsettling for children that's hard to

00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:23.000

describe to the parent who is in love because we are different you know it's it's it's been 22 years, apparently a lot of since you fell in love with your husband.

00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:33.000

But you've watched many people in your life how They can start dressing different, or they have a new hairstyle, or they carried different handbags because they're in love.

00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:40.000

They're they're doing this thing and for kids it's like Where's my mom? What if you're done with her?

00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:55.000

Or where's, my dad what if you done with him right so we've got to be aware of all these more subtle impacts for kids, and how it just feels like loss it doesn't feel like a gain it's not it's not happy or exciting it's like

00:45:55.000 --> 00:46:01.000

Wow! now what I I it takes me back to when I was

00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:07.000

I was a teenager, and my mom would introduce her and her son never again other to me.

00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:17.000

And I was just the most absolute brat, and and grew to her boyfriend because he was the time she spent with him means.

00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:24.000

It was less time with me. I didn't get attention and I love. how you talk about in the book, You know you especially girls right.

00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:34.000

You'll have your daughter being sullen and and just grumpy and just retreating, and instead of accusing your daughter like, Why are you being such a brat?

00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:41.000

Why are you being so mean to Jim slowing down and tell me your daughter? Wow!

00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:47.000

I, or even your son, I see something is really bothering you why don't you talk to me about it?

00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:52.000

And what do we need to do? Maybe we need more time together.

00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:59.000

Maybe we need to slow down a little bit with Jim here's the thing children do want their parents to be happy.

00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:04.000

They really do, and I and I will tell you. I I certainly saw that with my own kids in time.

00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:16.000

They want us to be happy. They don't want it at the cost of their own sense of security, or in the at the caustic having someone shoved down their throat.

00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:22.000

So you know, kind of basically forced on them that every dinner hour now includes Jim, or every dinner hour.

00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:32.000

Now includes something. it's like just slow down step family when it works, is amazing. and there are lots of successful step families out there.

00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:39.000

And so for those people who are listening who know of those step families you know that is wonderful, and it's worth it.

00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:51.000

It's just complicated and so learning that learning the steps and learning how to do them in a step by factions is what's going to lead that's successful thriving stephanie.

00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:55.000

You want it. You kind of want to avoid those pitfalls if we can.

00:47:55.000 --> 00:48:05.000

I think also a good point to recognize. choose, that like reassuring your child's sense of security can be well instead of Jim coming over this Saturday night.

00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:10.000

How about we just do something? Just us, you know. Go see a movie, you know.

00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:21.000

Watch, play a board game together, something like that because sometimes. you kids just really want that one on one time with you, and they may get resentful that Jim has to be there every weekend right?

00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:28.000

That's exactly right. So most of the time when kids really act up around.

00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:34.000

Step new adults it's it's really that they're scared at the end of the day.

00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:49.000

They're scared, and they're feeling more laws because remember for kids, even though you may feel completely over your divorce, Those kids are reminded every transition their parents got to divorced They don't get they don't

00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:57.000

get to forget, Yeah, that original transition and restructuring of their original family because they live it every week.

00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:07.000

Maybe multiple times a week, depending on the number of transitions so staying empathetic to what we're asking of our children, understanding them, really makes a huge difference.

00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:11.000

And then talking with our beloves about those complications.

00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:18.000

Yeah, because if i'm dating someone who doesn't have children and I have 2 children and 3 grandchildren.

00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:33.000

They're gonna need to understand what that means in my line and they've got to Honestly, assess do I wanna be in love with someone who has these other tethers who have these other demands who whose life will be

00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:40.000

informed by a lot of requirements that i'm not a part of That's a question.

00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:53.000

Am I cut out percept family and if and here's another point too, that you mentioned, too, when you're saying that as an adult, you know we're we're over we're done with the divorce but children inside are secretly hoping that one

00:49:53.000 --> 00:50:01.000

day their parents were reconcile. Sometimes that's exactly right? especially if there was that a lot of abuse or drama and trauma and all that stuff.

00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:07.000

Yeah, those kids are thinking. but it's soon as that new partner comes on the scene like shit.

00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:15.000

That closes that door I guess I don't want Jim around, and it's it's interesting what you said, too, when you're talking about.

00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:21.000

So in this in, you know, like Jim. right? so, Jim House, if Jim has no kids, Jim has to think really think about.

00:50:21.000 --> 00:50:37.000

Am I really cut out, for this exactly? am I cut out for Stephanie, because it's complicated, and if Jim does have children, and you have children, or you know the 2 of us both have our own children, it's not like

00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:45.000

it's people have a fantasy that it's easier it's actually double the trouble, because we still now we have 2 co-parents.

00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:52.000

We have 2 sets of children or a child in each situation who are used to things being done a certain way.

00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:57.000

One of my favorite stories in the book is when Patricia shares the story with her stepdaughter.

00:50:57.000 --> 00:51:03.000

When she made her return a fish sandwich and I don't know if you remember, that one Lonnie.

00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:08.000

But so Patricia is thinking to herself i'm gonna make the girls tunica sandwich her own daughter and her stepdaughter.

00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:18.000

And so she's got the weak bread out and she's got the low fat Mayo, and she's got the salary, and the all the goodies that she's going to put the tony fish makes it insight

00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:25.000

in front of her. Step out, or What is this right?

00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:30.000

Right right, and our stepfather always been used to sandwiches being made with white bread.

00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:38.000

Pull on manage. Never anything green in it. you know these kinds of things where you think you're doing the right thing.

00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:45.000

And kids are really used to something different. We don't put sprinkles on our Christmas cookies in our family.

00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:59.000

What are you doing like? This is the kind of stuff the differences from 2 families, original families that have to figure out how to marry, how to bring together 2 different cultures to different family cultures.

00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:08.000

Let alone potentially literally 2 different, You know cultural cultural heritage, right or religious backgrounds, or whatever else.

00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:25.000

So it's complicated it's challenging I think it's also 2 people need to be forgiving of themselves in the sense that if it doesn't work out to to not carry any type of blame we're

00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:31.000

shame about that right. It you can't know what you don't know right, My!

00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:39.000

I I have a former partner who used to laugh because my children were teenagers when we got together, and i'll never forget the day.

00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:50.000

Someone was someone who had children said to my former partner. Well, you knew she had children, and my former partner reacted like without even taking her breath.

00:52:50.000 --> 00:53:01.000

And I didn't know what it meant. that she had children like. There was no way to know the myriad of impacts that 2 teenagers were gonna have on family.

00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:09.000

Life. there was no way to know right so if you get into it, you've given it your best, and you realize.

00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:17.000

Oh, my gosh! this is just causing so much strike for both of us, and honestly, i'm not cut out for this this isn't really what I want to my life.

00:53:17.000 --> 00:53:25.000

Then again responsible with repair with honoring relationships you're absolutely right. money.

00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:31.000

It's important to be able to step away. be respectful be kind, right, and those relationships responsibly.

00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:39.000

If you've been in children's lives for any length of time, say goodbye right, don't make promises you can't keep.

00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:50.000

Oh, i'll see you every weekend no don't say that unless you've really worked that out right, those kind of things well, at least people can have an idea of what they're getting into now if they read your book

00:53:50.000 --> 00:54:03.000

right. I really want to invite them into destroying it in a step wise fashion.

00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:18.000

I think and then, thank thank you, for saying that too, and I think that's why, with this book you can definitely help, you can help parents and their new partners navigate the the ups and downs the turbulence the

00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:23.000

bumpy nest They're going to and they're going to encounter and provide them the tools.

00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:28.000

That's What this book is it's a tool it's a resource, hey?

00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:40.000

You've met someone new. How do I introduce them? to my kids once a good amount of time to introduce them to their kids and informing your co-parent about this new relationship?

00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:43.000

What to look forward in terms of reactions from the kids.

00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:47.000

Given their different ages, Even kids who are now adults.

00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:58.000

They have reactions, too, and discipline just your book right the first family people fight about.

00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:02.000

I think it was kids in money, but most of the fights are focused around financial.

00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:11.000

We're in that step that step family relationship yeah the next time family the fights focus on the kids in the discipline. right?

00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:25.000

That's exactly right. Most families in original families their biggest stressor is money, and in our next time families the biggest stress there is discipline kids, and the in the issue there again is, you know, we we come to we come to a sense.

00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:31.000

Of family, with expectations and children, and a parent come to a next time family with a whole history.

00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:44.000

So that new person coming in is just really engaging this history that they may or may not have any conscious awareness of how that's going to impact them. Right?

00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:52.000

Right? Yeah, it's important stuff. Well, thank you so much for your time, Karen.

00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:57.000

Really enjoy talking today, and especially diving into the Step Family Handbook.

00:55:57.000 --> 00:56:10.000

Such a great, wonderful resource, out there. Please pick It up it's available on Amazon, and essentially just Google the Step Family Handbook and read it.

00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:24.000

Read it. is not even about dating right now, but kind of going just like you can have that advance that events roadmap of what's coming up. next And only to the interpersonal skills that is interpersonal.

00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:30.000

Relationship skills that you mentioned can be applied to your current partner with your kids.

00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:40.000

And for those and so let's not forget the 3 areas that Karen is available in in terms of parenting coaching divorce.

00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:46.000

Well is one bucket, the second bucket is co-parent, strong, and the third bucket is step wise.

00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:53.000

Beautiful Oh, my gosh! is always my pleasure.

00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:59.000

Yes, and contact Karen at W. W. W.

00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:05.000

Dot Karen Espnell, dot com, or Google Karen did you say?

00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:12.000

Can Coach Kirkland. Yeah, any of those words will get me coach caring, Kirkland. that's going to get you to me.

00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:16.000

But yeah, I look forward to hearing from anyone yeah if there's anything I can do.

00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:20.000

I'm always happy to help thank you so much again.

00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:37.000

Karen for being on our show, and thank you for my listeners out there for listening to another episode of the archaeology on a law politics, where in we talk about the things that intersect in the areas of divorce and