Akiona Law Podcast
Join us as founding attorney Lani Akiona interviews industry experts on everything you need to know about Family Law and Divorce in Seattle Washington. Akiona Law: Caring for You in Your Time of Crisis.https://www.akionalaw.com/**The information in this podcast is general information only and should not, in any respect, be relied on as specific legal advice.
Akiona Law Podcast
021 - The Akiona Law Podcast: Featuring Kathleen Royer
In this episode of the Akiona Law Podcast, Lani speaks with divorce mediator, Kathleen Royer. She speaks about the need for divorcing couples especially those who have children, to engage in problem-solving rather than being adversaries. Lani and Kathleen discuss the importance of good communication and planning to create an effective coparenting team.
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Okay. So I'm gonna count down 5, 4, 3, 2, and one Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Akiona law.
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Podcasts, we're in we discuss all things that intersect in the areas of family, law and divorce.
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And today with me, I have, okay. You've got. You've got a lot of hats.
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I'm gonna get them all I've got family law.
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I've got Kathleen Royer, who is a family law attorney.
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She's a co-parenting coach. She's also a parenting coordinator.
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She is a divorce, family law mediator, and she is a President of the Washington State chapter of A.
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Fcc. Which stands for the Washington State Chapter of Afc. Which stands for the Association of Family and Conciliation Courts.
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Kathleen. Welcome to our podcast.
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Hi! Thanks so much for having me!
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Okay.
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Kathleen. We're just gonna dive right into it. And I know you told me that you've been practicing law for about, I believe, close to 31 years.
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Coming up yeah in May.
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Okay? And what got you into family law and divorce cause? That's a long time to be practicing that area.
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Well, no, it is so. I might.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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The story I tell is that when I got out of law school there really were a lot of jobs, and although I swear up and down I wasn't going to practice family law when I hung out my shingle, that was who walked in my door and it only took a couple of cases for me to realize that there
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Yeah.
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was a real need for good advocacy in that area.
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And for you know, for clients who are going through a huge life, that you know huge life experience.
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Right.
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And and for many a very traumatic life experience they needed advocates who really heard them, understood what they're interested in concerns were, and then tried to advocate in a way that would protect their children and and also help them think about what's life gonna be like after this.
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Okay. I see, that's that's interesting, because family law and divorce was the last area that I wanted to practice too.
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But once I started like you said, it's just, you see, that need for advocacy, and it is really so fulfilling and so rewarding to help people in this time of need.
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Well, then, you know, in King County, and I think it was like 1995.
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Okay.
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So that would have been 3, you know, when I was like 3 years I was licensed in 19,982, and at that time we had the Pilot Unified Family Court project, and and when and I was really fascinated by that and actually served on the the Ufc Training oversight
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committee for many, many years, and that is an ongoing committee that still produces twice a month. Educational programs.
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So actually, they kind of do once a month or twice a month, depending on speaker availability.
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But I was the co-chair of that committee for many, many years, and then it was then Susan Carol.
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Okay.
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I don't know if you know, Susan, but she followed, you know, followed in those footsteps.
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Yeah.
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I'm not sure who the co-chair is now, but but it really isn't institution of the court that offers some training on multidisciplinary topics, and at the time that I was, you know when I early in my practice I started representing a private social service agency.
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Okay.
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Oh!
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Working with, you know, managing their foster care, load their foster care, Caseload, and so I was really lucky to have to have social workers as my clients and be able to go to court and advocate for the kids in our program.
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And you know they the agency had was very well funded, and could actually provide a lot of supportive services for kids in their foster care.
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Placements, and so that I always felt so lucky to have that opportunity, because I learned a ton about child development.
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Okay.
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I learned a ton about, you know. How do you manage?
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Mental. You know, folks with mental health concerns and a whole variety of things.
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Yeah.
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So I feel that that was such a blessing in my practice was to have that exposure and have that have that opportunity to really understand a broader, to look more broadly at.
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Right.
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How to you know what are family's needs right from there.
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What I did, because there were so many kids in Foster care who also had individual education plans.
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Okay.
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I felt like that was really at a really important area to try to add to my practice, so that I could be fluent in that.
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Uhhuh.
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And so I was very, very fortunate to take a case that actually let me argue for a kid in the ninth Circuit Court of Appeals on a residential placement case.
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Oh, my goodness!
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Yeah.
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So you know, I've had this. Really, you know, I've just kind of my work. I've just followed the work to things that interest me and help me create a really big tool bag to work with families.
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I love that toolbag to work with families and help families.
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I love that, too, because I'm as for me, I'm coming from a litigation background.
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I come from being a prosecutor in the state of Hawaii, and what you're taught what Kathleen is talking about is that to be a really good family law and divorce attorney like Kathleen?
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Oh, yeah.
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You need emotional intelligence, and when you come out of law school they don't train you about emotional and intelligence like you're talking about.
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And when you're a lot of when attorneys come from a litigation based background, it's really something that they have to be cognizant of, and then add that to their toolbox cause.
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If you just come in family all just straight litigation.
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And I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna do that and be a bull in a china shop.
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I feel that you can hurt your client's case sometime.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's where the most damage is done to families.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Frankly, you know, is by having a pretending like, you know.
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It's kind of that notion that if the only tool, the only tool that you have in your toolb is a hammer, every problem is gonna look like a nail right?
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That is so good.
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Yeah.
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And that just isn't that just isn't that doesn't work for families, because families, families don't need to be adversaries.
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They need to be able to engage in a process where they can solve the problem of.
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So true!
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We have 2 households. We have really limited income how do we allocate the resources so that everybody's needs are met to the best of our ability?
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With those resources we have right?
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That's that's so great where there that just just sums it up.
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And I'm gonna make a making a little plug in terms of learning how to become a better family law for your clients.
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It's really taking those classes that the A. Fcc.
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Offers Association, family courts, and conciliation that's what kind of helps shift the paradigm in my brain to be more emotionally intelligent.
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Yes, absolutely.
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Correct.
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And again I just I ran into you at a conference in Las Vegas last year, and it was just love their conferences.
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It was good to be back in person.
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Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, I think that it's I think that it's it's really important for people to be willing to look more broadly.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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You know I I mean I think of it in terms of without the special edition that the Special Education piece, for example, right, is, is a place where there can be a lot of confidence right?
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Hmm!
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If parents have a kid there's a lot of shame associated with having a kid identified for services in the school district.
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But the problem is what I learned working with these families, and particularly kids who are, who are very, very bright but neuro diverse right?
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Okay.
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So a lot of work in the autism community, a lot of work with Adhd and other types of you know that kind of constellation of issues, right?
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It's really important for kids to learn how to use the sort of balance their strengths in their deficit areas if they don't learn how to do that properly, particularly in the academic environment, they learn in appropriate coping skills.
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Okay.
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Right.
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And those then can lead down, you know, lead to a whole parade of horrible is that no parent would wish upon his or her child, and you know so I in fact, I had this couple.
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Okay.
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They were having issues about transitions, right? Right? Kid was really struggling with transitions I remembered I'd mediated their parenting plan.
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This was Post post decree, mediation, dispute, resolution.
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Well, we can't get it, you know. We can't figure out these transitions, and you know homeworks falling apart and blow along.
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Wait! Wait! Wait! Wait! Wait! Hold on a second, so you meet at it.
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Mediated their parenting plan, and then they came to me to mediate post-docree, right correct.
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You mediated their parenting plan, and then and then your okay post decree, which is, let me just post decree means, after your final divorce order, final parenting plan is, enter.
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Came back, and they were.
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You have the dispute about your parenting plan. So they came back, and they met with fifthly, to help them resolve and let me just start to interrupt you again.
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Good.
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But transitions means the exchange of the child between the parents.
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Right Going between households right? And so that's it.
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Okay. Yes. Thank you.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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So there was a. There were struggles, and they were kind of blaming each other, and as I listened to how they were blaming one another, I said, Well, wait a minute.
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Am I recalling correctly that you both were talking about having a child with Adhd?
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Hmm, okay.
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Oh, yeah. And I said, Well, so how are you accommodating that?
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That diagnosis and the behavioral sequelae from that.
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How are you? How are you having him helping this child adapt to those transitions in light of what you actually know about them?
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Yeah.
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Homework, the hallmark of Adhd is just not being able to be organized right.
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Right.
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Stressful, right yeah.
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So transitioning from one household to the other? Is a complete nightmare for this kid, and they both just so you could see the light go on right.
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Wow, yeah.
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And they're like, Oh, my gosh! We didn't even think about that!
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Yeah.
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It's like, okay, so let's develop some, you know, goals and objectives for how we're gonna do those extensions right?
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Oh, that's exciting. Yeah.
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But it's that kind of you know, that, you know. It's really important to help help families tap into using the information they have to make the adjustments they need to make.
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So life works for everybody, after you know, in the in the actual transition of the divorce, and then beyond.
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Exactly.
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Right without having to go to court, because if they had, you know, instead of going to you, if they had gone to Jo Schmal, litigation attorney that attorney would have been like, we're gonna go to court and we're gonna get this done and you know, kind of
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force a solution on the parents.
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Right, yeah.
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Well, and not necessarily a solution that was workable, because there kids, Adhd, if it wasn't addressed it wouldn't.
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It wouldn't have gone away. And so it really misses the you know.
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Yeah.
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It's sort of like a. It just absolutely misses the mark, and that's that's the risk to being adversaries rather than finding finding the level of allowment.
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You can create. So that when you hit a speed bomb you can make corrections and keep moving forward right that's what really works for families.
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I love that!
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You know, constantly fighting and shaming and blaming.
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It just has. No, it just really is not useful for them.
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I'm particularly given all the research that that we know exist.
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And Ampcc's done a ton of it. We know that that.
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Yeah, as long as parents can get food on the table, you know.
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Get the kids to bed, get them to school. They're fine.
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What really is down to kids is that conflict.
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The conflict right? And it's hard for parents to kinda take that step back and and see it.
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That's right.
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How do you incorporate that when you're working with families to kind of take that step back and take a look at that content that can't help with that conflict is creating the harm or damage to their trajectory?
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Well, you know, so I love being able to create in mediation with couples.
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Okay.
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I work with a lot of couples to create their parenting plans right?
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And so I really like to step back and look at that parenting plan.
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Walk through it with parents, because you know our parenting plans have more than just.
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Right.
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Okay.
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How are we going to share parenting time? We have provisions for dispute, resolution for decision, making, for creating other provisions in the parenting plan that help the parties live under the terms of that plan which is technically a court order right?
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Right.
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But what I find really sort of frustrating is that and the difference between creating a parenting plan and mediation versus a more adversarial process is that you know that in our parenting plans we have the the infamous paragraph 14 other provisions the other provisions.
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The other provisions, which are supposed to be guidelines, and not necessarily court-enforceable.
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Hmm, okay.
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Well, here's the thing is that many of those provisions are enforceable, because they come from a punished, you know, a crime and punishment kind of point of view, right?
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Right.
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But that doesn't help parents be better co-parents right?
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Right.
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It just kind of sets these weird boundaries that they then have to figure out.
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Okay, how are we gonna how are we gonna cooperate around these boundaries that are set in place instead of saying and so what that creates is the whole notion of reactive cop parenting right?
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Oh, reactive co-parenting!
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So they're always in ring to. You're following the plan.
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Right.
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You're not following the plan. Here's what the plan says.
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You didn't do it. You're a bad parent, right?
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That's in in a nutshell.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Pretty much, I mean, you know, pretty much, and so so if you want to create, if you want to help parents really co-parent post decree, then what is good to do is to help them shift from that sort of adversarial perspective and help them proactively co-parent and how does
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Yeah.
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that, do that. Well, let's see, we put in another provision that says, you know, few times a year, 3 times a year.
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You're just gonna kind of sit down and and figure out what's on the horizon that we need to just make sure is confirmed.
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Have we got sports lined up for the fall, and we got summer vacations lined up.
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Right.
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Have we got the holidays? Confirm lists?
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Take a look at who's got Christmas this year? Who has Thanksgiving you know, so that you're kind of a peg.
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Right.
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Attention to how you know, because really, when you look at the parenting plan as it's written, the 2 big chunks of it have to do with the school schedule for most families and the summer schedule, well, that's 9 that's like pretty much the whole year, with some blips of school
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And holidays. Yeah.
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breaks right, and holidays exactly. Those are the exceptions to that plan. Right?
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Right.
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And so it's really helpful for parents to be thinking about.
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Stepping back and planning ahead, so that there's not this, you know.
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Oh, you know Descember twenty-third, you're having a big fight about what's going to happen for the Christmas holidays.
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I see.
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So it's finding things and also having communication protocols.
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Yeah.
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Right. How many, you know you're gonna do a transition email, for example, you know, if a child's been in a parents care for 3 days or more, send a little transition email and those go back and forth.
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So that parents kind of know what's happening with their kid. And that helps to that helps the child to a softer landing in the receiving parent's home. Okay? Great.
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Can you give us an example of a transition email?
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Okay.
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Well, you know, there's actually so I when I work with parents, whether I'm mediating with them, whether I'm coaching them or whether I'm serving as a PC.
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I really request that they get the co-parenting Handbook, and that's by the 2 by Kristen Kristen Little and Karen Bennell.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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That's right.
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Yeah.
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It's a really super super resource for parents, because chapter 5 is all about communication, and they've got literally a template for that transition email talks about academics, health, physical you know, whatever whatever kind of there's some you know, various categories for what's going to be going on in
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your kids life, and all it takes is a couple of you know, a couple of sentence in any of them.
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Yeah.
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Send it off, and so that way, when child comes to the receiving parent, they they, you know, they can actually ask if there was something that happened.
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That's gonna carry over, or something positive that happened. Hey? I hear you had blah blah blah!
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You know you had a great party, you know where you had this.
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Yeah.
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You had that it's a way that it's a way to create, to, to sort of meet, maintain connections right?
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Right. And that's for the child's sake.
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Yeah.
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Hmm!
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Yeah.
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And for the child, for the child's sake, because the kids yes, because for the child, every time that child transitioned that child has to say goodbye to a parent they love and say hello to a parent they love, and then they have to flip it around again the next time, and it's very interesting a number
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Hmm!
00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:05.000
of years ago there was a book written a book called Low Boy, about a kid who wound up as a with a serious drug addiction.
00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:13.000
Oh, wow!
00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:14.000
Yeah.
00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:21.000
And this is a kid who lived under a he lived under a long-distance parenting plan, and, you know, was with Dad sometimes, then with Mom, and it was going back and forth and back and forth between households.
00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:22.000
Yep.
00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:34.000
Well, let let me do find really quickly long distance. Parity plan is when the 2 parents oftentimes do not reside in the same state, or significantly far apart, where they're not even in the same county.
00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:51.000
But I remember I, whatever reason I was interested in the book, and as I when I read it, and I found this statement that he made about you know I love both of my families.
00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:52.000
Right.
00:18:52.000 --> 00:19:02.000
But it was so hard it's do exactly that to say goodbye, and go to the other family right that even when parents get along it's hard for kids to do that.
00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:03.000
Hmm!
00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:04.000
And parents, I think, are really oftentimes not very mindful of the child's perspective, which is what I always really try to help bring to the foreground.
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:09.000
And really, it's when you bring the child's perspective to the foreground.
00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:15.000
That's the best way to start diffusing the conflict between the parents.
00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:16.000
Right.
00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:22.000
I love that when you bring the trials, when you bring forth the child's perspective, it's a good way to defuse the conflict between the parents.
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:26.000
It is.
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:27.000
Yes.
00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:28.000
And again the book, the book, you're talking about was a Coal Parenting Handbook, by Karen Bannell and Kristin.
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:29.000
Little. Yeah, it is.
00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:34.000
It's fabulous for that, and you know, and the other, you know, I'm always like just kind of constantly.
00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:43.000
My mantra is okay. Be sure you read chapter 2 at least twice.
00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:44.000
Hmm!
00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:49.000
Be sure you read chapter 5, chapter 2 is about, how do you actually create a pair of co-parenting relationship as co-parents, not as former spouses? Right?
00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:50.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:50.000 --> 00:20:05.000
So that's shifting from parent mind. If shifting to parent mind from spouse, and and what that means is that you don't wanna have.
00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:06.000
Okay. Yes.
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:10.000
There are. There's a certain shorthand that exists between spouses right once you're in no longer spouses.
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:11.000
Yeah, right?
00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:12.000
That shorthand is off the table right? I had a client just recently.
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:17.000
Say, well, you know we're both adults we should be able to do that.
00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:20.000
And they said, Well, how's that been working out for you?
00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:21.000
Cause, you know you're calling me for dispute. Resolution.
00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:25.000
What did they say?
00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:30.000
You could. How do you? You know you don't, you know that's the shorthand right?
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:31.000
Yeah.
00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:35.000
They're expect, I mean, and when I tell clients is like you, I can pretty much guarantee you.
00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:40.000
Conflict will live where there are unmatch unexpressed expectations.
00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:44.000
So, true. Yeah.
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:45.000
Yeah.
00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:49.000
So so let's talk about, how do we manage expectations right when we're gonna show up at a show up at a baseball game?
00:20:49.000 --> 00:21:03.000
And the kids are going to be, you know, trying to go to one parent or the other, and you have a parenting plan that says specifically what there's supposed to do.
00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:04.000
Uhhuh.
00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:18.000
Little check-in before we go about. Exactly. How are we going to choreograph this when we're there rather than oh, we can just be adults and figure it out when we get there.
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:19.000
Yeah.
00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:25.000
It's a very different, a very different approach. And that's that proactive versus reactive parenting that I try to encourage my clients to to shoot, for because it really is about how skillfully you know everybody who has kids in common they're all co-parents in some fashion
00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:32.000
the question is, how skillful or not are you in in that?
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:33.000
Yeah.
00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:41.000
In that life right? And so the goal is for me. Working with clients is to help them find ways to just really continue to improve their skills because they really can learn them.
00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:47.000
100. If they have a context for defining the skill that's needed.
00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:51.000
And I would say most of us do not have that skill because they don't.
00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:54.000
You know there's they don't teach us how to be parents.
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:57.000
Well, exactly. I mean, that's what I tell my clients about the Handbook right?
00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:58.000
Yeah.
00:21:58.000 --> 00:21:59.000
And then our kids didn't come with any instruction manual.
00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:02.000
But if you're gonna have to be co-parents, Bingo, there's your instruction.
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:04.000
Yeah. The the Co. Parenting Handbook, by Karen, Bannon and Kristen.
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.000
Manual. Yeah. Yep.
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:09.000
Little Karen Bella was actually on the podcast to talk about that.
00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:10.000
Right.
00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:16.000
She's great. So when are you? Do you? Do you recommend the co-parenting Handbook?
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:20.000
When, as a co-parenting coach, a parenting Coordinator, PC.
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:27.000
For short and as a mediator. Okay?
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:28.000
Yeah.
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:41.000
Absolutely, absolutely and really just a, you know. So for my mediation, clients, you know, they always are very eager to you know they're eager to, you know, people who self select for mediation to start any start, a divorce process are really eager for what you know for for what do we do
00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:42.000
Yeah.
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:43.000
next right, how do we? How do we map this? How do we create this?
00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:52.000
And so that's a really fun process to engage in with families, because the parents they've self selected for it.
00:22:52.000 --> 00:23:10.000
They come to it in good faith, and and it really is a matter of helping them get to the resources they need.
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:11.000
Right.
00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:12.000
You know, when you're looking at coaching. We've covered oftentimes folks have been somewhat damaged by being adversaries so it's a matter of figuring out.
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:18.000
You know how it kind of doing a damage assessment and figuring out, okay, how can we help start shifting away from?
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:23.000
I know you. I know this, this process adversary process is really difficult.
00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:24.000
Yeah.
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:30.000
So let's do something different and you know that's very much the work that a parenting coordinator does as well.
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:33.000
But oftentimes there will be a little bit more damage.
00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:36.000
That's been inflicted by the adversary system.
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:42.000
So the PC. Actually will have as a PC. I typically will have authority to just simply be the dispute resolution.
00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:45.000
Provide, and so that's kind of on this, you know.
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:54.000
On that spectrum of. I'm gonna step in and see if I can kind of mediate this.
00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:02.000
If I can't mediate it, I have the authority to make binding recommendations and if it's something where they just are in a dispute, and there needs to be a decision.
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:08.000
I have the authority to make a decision for them. So it's, you know.
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:09.000
Okay.
00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:11.000
So it's really a matter of kind of, you know.
00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:13.000
Where is anybody on that spectrum, you know, I used to joke about that, you know.
00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:17.000
Everybody's on the spectrum of dysfunction.
00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:18.000
Right it's just sort of where do you? Where do you fit on that right?
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:20.000
How dysfunctional are you?
00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:25.000
And well, yeah, you know, I mean, there's like, pretty normal and pretty dysfunctional.
00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:26.000
Medium and highly dysfunctional where it's.
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:33.000
Yeah, you know exactly, you know. And so we can all kind of figure out, where do we fit on that?
00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:34.000
And and then say, Okay, so how do we can?
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:39.000
How we make corrections, so that life is more peaceful.
00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:43.000
Things move more smoothly, and stress is reduced.
00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:49.000
Yeah, what? Going hand in hand with that? Is there? Is there other books or resources?
00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:54.000
You recommend to your client, besides the co-parenting Handbook.
00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:58.000
Okay.
00:24:58.000 --> 00:24:59.000
Yeah.
00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:00.000
You know, that's really the primary, because it and I kind of, unless use it like a textbook, you know, I mean, I really do.
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:06.000
And what I love about that. That resource is that you can.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:22.000
It's one thing to read it through that's more like checking the boxes.
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:23.000
Hmm!
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:30.000
It's important to read it, read it through, but then go back because it really does give you the the information that you need to develop skills, and that in conjunction with somebody who's helping you kind of tie that to specific behaviors that are either described or observed
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:37.000
right in that coaching or PC. Setting right? That's what helps kind of bring this, you know.
00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:43.000
Bring to life the circumstances in which a particular skills miss.
00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:44.000
Right.
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:49.000
Yeah, and how you and your experience have you found it? Even if both parents don't read it?
00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:58.000
But one parent does that. The one parent who reads it is able to deal with the reactive parent a little bit better, maybe manage a little bit better.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:03.000
I would. I think that I think that that may be that maybe I wouldn't.
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:04.000
Okay.
00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:09.000
I don't have any direct evidence of that, but I think that a parent who's going to be willing to do that will be taking the coaching as well right.
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:11.000
Yeah, doing the co-parenting coaching with you.
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:12.000
Yeah.
00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:15.000
You know often exactly. No, that's exactly right.
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:18.000
We're taking the coaching, you know. That's a very big part.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:19.000
This isoeducation coaching piece of working as a PC.
00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:24.000
Is a really important piece of that.
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:27.000
And you know, in terms of the mediation that you're doing, is it just divorce?
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:28.000
Do you do divorce and parenting plan, mediation?
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:31.000
Or is it just one? Okay, you do both.
00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:34.000
Well, no, I do. Yeah, I do. Both of those.
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:35.000
Okay.
00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:37.000
I mean, it's all family law, right?
00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:38.000
Yes.
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:47.000
I mean, you know. And actually, actually, I think that one of the things that we're seeing is, you know, for teams.
00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:51.000
I've always believed that teenagers are every bit of it.
00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:57.000
Have, every our every much, every match is at risk, as 2 year olds.
00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:58.000
Yeah.
00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:01.000
They're just in really different developmental places and bodies.
00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:17.000
But you know they really are. It's very. They really struggle and and so that's an area where I think there's a lot of a lot of education that needs to happen about what's you know what teams are about so children's hospital I think
00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:19.000
Yeah.
00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:23.000
sponsors, some really great programming, you know. There's a they offer some really good programs in that regard and those are the kinds of things I refer.
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:33.000
My clients to are those online parenting programs like, there's some, I think it's children's.
00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:42.000
And they have. You know how how to parent your, you know, for moms how to parent your teenage son, and for dads how to parent your teenage daughter.
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:43.000
Yeah.
00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:44.000
You know there are a number of those kind of resources that are really helpful.
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:50.000
There's also a great book. There are 2 versions of it now.
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:54.000
There. The first one was, get out of my life. But first, can you drive me and Cheryl to the Mall right?
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:56.000
Heard about that? Yeah.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:00.000
And then there's the second kind of addition of that which is a which is, get out of my life.
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:07.000
But first, can you drive me and Alex into town, and one is by.
00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:13.000
They both are co-authored by one of the same one of the same authors.
00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:17.000
His name is his name is escaping me now, but and then the second one about driving Alex.
00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:23.000
And me to town was by a British psychologist in this same author who wrote the original, you know.
00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:24.000
Oh!
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:28.000
Get out of my life, but but they're really good because they talk about team development.
00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:43.000
But you know what we're seeing is that we're seeing related to team development is we're seeing a lot of resist refuse dynamic cases, and particularly cases with teenagers where parents have been very high conflict.
00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:45.000
And the kids just kind of say, you know what I'm over this.
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:47.000
Yeah.
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:54.000
And they vote with their feet right? And it's some level you have to ask yourself, why wouldn't they?
00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:55.000
Right.
00:28:55.000 --> 00:29:13.000
Yeah. Resistant resistant refused, and the refused dynamic that Kathleen is talking about is when the teenage child refuses to go to the other parents home, because the conflict with the parent is so intense that it's almost it's as if well, it's basically the teen
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:18.000
who? Yeah, what's the word that the team allies with the parent in that?
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:23.000
In that conference room't want refuses to go to the other parents home.
00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:24.000
Yeah, and so you know, it's interesting, because, you know, there's the whole, you know.
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:34.000
So there's a whole whole range of you know. I mean, that's and it's not one size fits all for those kind of cases.
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:35.000
Yeah.
00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:45.000
But we're seeing more of them, and you know there can be, I think the hard cases are the cases that are this kind of combined estrangement.
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:46.000
Right.
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:51.000
You know estrangement like real estrangement from a parent who may have a mental health problem, or have a substance abuse problem.
00:29:51.000 --> 00:30:01.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:02.000
Oh!
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:03.000
You know. And so that you know versus a parent who's just really decided they're gonna poison the well, you know.
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:08.000
And you know, and and really just make the kid a line in that regard.
00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:23.000
But you know, it really is important, I think, to be looking at those kinds of you know.
00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:24.000
Yeah.
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:29.000
Really paying attention to teams. And what do they need? You know, because what they really do have to do is individually from those parents, and they need to do that in a healthy way to the best of their ability, right?
00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:30.000
And how do they do that?
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:37.000
So well, you know I think it. I mean you know.
00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:38.000
It's a tough question.
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:40.000
Okay, I mean, honestly, I quite honestly, I don't know how they do it.
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:41.000
Yeah.
00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:50.000
Sometimes with some of the parents, I think, with for men it really depends on the kid, and you know what that kind of speaks to is.
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:54.000
You know, kids kind of by their nature are are pretty resilient, but they also can't have that well done.
00:30:54.000 --> 00:31:05.000
Depleted, right so that's one of the things that I really like to talk to parents about is, how do we work in a way?
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:07.000
How do you, co-parent in a way that you actually help your child?
00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:27.000
Regenerate that resilience right so, and then that part is in how, how you do those accounts, those transitions between howholds, for example, you know, I mean, it's really a huge thing for a kid.
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:28.000
Yeah.
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:38.000
I mean, it's really important for a kid, particularly like a younger child, for example, for them to actually have the ability to move freely between both parents, households, and to love both parents in that process.
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:41.000
So it should be okay for a kid to have a picture of the other parent.
00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:42.000
Yeah.
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:47.000
You know, have pictures of both parents in both households.
00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:48.000
Right.
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:50.000
Yeah, I know what I mean. What you're talking about is that?
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:59.000
And this is when it gets tough, when, one I mean. And you know, sometimes like we're talking about cold dependency.
00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:03.000
We're one parent is cold, dependent on their child.
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:06.000
Yeah.
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:10.000
Right.
00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:11.000
Right.
00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:20.000
And so then the poor child can individuallyate themselves, because one parent is, is meshed, and it really has to you that parent has to let that child go and say, have a good time at your dad instead of oh, I'm gonna miss you so much.
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:21.000
That's horrible for kids. That's just horrible for kids.
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:24.000
And you're gonna be gone. Yeah.
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:25.000
Yeah.
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:33.000
I mean, talk about a loyalty bind right? I mean, and that's really that's the kind of stuff that you you know, when you're working with families to try to get a notion of is that happening.
00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:50.000
And then how do you how do you look at that? Having a conversation to even broch the subject at all, and to the extent that you can broach the subject, then how do you start identifying ways to disrupt that dynamic right?
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:52.000
Between the in mesh parent and the child. Yeah.
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:59.000
Absolutely. I mean, if it's really severe that requires a mental health professional, you know, that requires an intervention.
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:00.000
Right.
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:04.000
And you know, speaking of that, I mean that's often the kind of case where a PC.
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:05.000
The parenting coordinator right and the and then we have the.
00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:07.000
Is involved the parenting coordinator. Yep!
00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:12.000
Then we have the next, then we have the next parent who is angry.
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:16.000
Let's say, once Spouse cheated. So then you have.
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:21.000
Yeah, that parent tone the child. Well, if your father hadn't cheated, we still be together.
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:22.000
Oh, yeah.
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:27.000
Oh! You know, or you're gonna give visit your father and her this weekend.
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:30.000
So we have to be careful of that, too, because that's not healthy for the poor child.
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:36.000
Well, I again, but that's just a that's just a dynamic that needs to get disrupted.
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:40.000
And to the extent that that that the parent won't help won't support that process.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:45.000
Then I think it's really critical to have the child in a therapeutic.
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:58.000
Have the child be able to essentially kind of fun their own boundary around that parent, that just won't let it be right.
00:33:58.000 --> 00:33:59.000
Yeah.
00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:00.000
I mean, that's kind of how that's a really that's pretty.
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:09.000
That's a pretty significant problem, because what it for the child, right?
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:10.000
Yeah.
00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:12.000
That's what that's what's putting pressure on the child to not meet his or her own developmental benchmarks.
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:16.000
Right. Certainly. Social, you know, kind of socially, emotionally.
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:23.000
So let's say this, you're let's say you're in mediator, or and or even you.
00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:26.000
Okay, let me think about it. Okay, so let's do your mediation.
00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:39.000
And then this comes up, and you're experiencing this refuse and resist dynamic based on a scenario of either one parent is upset at the other parent for an affair, or you've got the coal dependency.
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:42.000
How do you handle that in mediation?
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:44.000
You know that's not the typical client that comes to me for mediation.
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:45.000
Okay, okay, what about like?
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:51.000
That's gonna be more in there. That's gonna be more in the those are gonna be the higher conflict.
00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:52.000
Okay. So that's gonna be.
00:34:52.000 --> 00:35:02.000
Litigated cases more likely than not. And so that's gonna be a case where they will have done all of that damage with their parenting availuation and role, their fighting and all of that kind of stuff.
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:06.000
Okay.
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:07.000
Yourself. That's where Kathleen comes in.
00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:09.000
And then they'll appoint the parenting Coordinator to exactly to exactly.
00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:10.000
Okay.
00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:21.000
They'll point the parenting coordinator to to come in and say, You know, number one, it's gonna be oftentimes monitoring services to make sure that folks are actually engaging in services.
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:22.000
Yeah.
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:44.000
And then, you know, and then working with the parents, on, you know, implementing their parenting plan and kind of working with, you know, monitoring their emails.
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:45.000
Okay.
00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:50.000
How do they communicate with one another? Because, you know, that's really I think I talked earlier about how important it is to have communication protocols and how conflict lives where there are unmet unknown expressed, unexpressed and unmet expectations, right and I think
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:51.000
Yes.
00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:57.000
so much of family law, if you just take it from a managing expectations.
00:35:57.000 --> 00:35:58.000
Hmm!
00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:04.000
Point of view. If you just thought I'm just gonna look at what's the landscape of potential expectations here? Right? And how am I?
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:05.000
Okay.
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:10.000
Gonna how am I gonna just like step back. Look at what do people expect to be happening here?
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:17.000
And how are they playing that out? And oh, by the way, how are they communicating about how that's playing out right?
00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:18.000
I see? Yeah.
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:25.000
You know that's where it's it's that's where you can kind of say, Oh, yeah, I see what the problem is.
00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:34.000
So a really, really typical one is, for example, when you have a communication protocol in which the parents are going to be communicating by email.
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:35.000
But then communicating by email perfect right, the.
00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:45.000
Communicating by email. Okay? Okay, let me ask you this, are we talking about something like a co-parenting app like our family wizard, or just straight email?
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:46.000
Okay.
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:49.000
They can. You know they that has is plus and minuses.
00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:50.000
Okay.
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:53.000
But but they do have some kind of communication protocol in place, and they tax when there's an emergency.
00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:58.000
Yeah.
00:36:58.000 --> 00:36:59.000
Yeah, right?
00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:05.000
But then they kind of slight. It's like it's like they fall off the wagon with it right, and then they start texting.
00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:06.000
True. Yeah.
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:10.000
They'll be some reason that they start texting. There'll be some reason that they start texting and then they start doing that more than they're actually communicating by email.
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:11.000
Okay.
00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:12.000
So here's where they are in a flood of, you know, texts which are incomplete.
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:17.000
Communications. In the first place, I mean, just look at you know.
00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000
True.
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:26.000
Where are you? Which is, you know, I mean, like, I mean I, you know, just don't even get me started on text language right?
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:31.000
Okay. Yeah.
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:32.000
Hmm!
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:37.000
Cause. It's not real English, right? I mean, if you start from there and then you think, and then you figure out and then they're texting one another back and forth.
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:38.000
They, their communications are reactive to the situation.
00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:53.000
They're, you know. They're sort of a self-created emergency, and rather than it being, you know, and that's how they fall into that reactive parenting place.
00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:54.000
Okay.
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:59.000
If they step back and stop shooting the text back and forth, because there's it's only a matter of time.
00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:04.000
Once they stop, really consciously communicating and sitting down and writing an email.
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:08.000
Which takes time.
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:09.000
Yeah.
00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:13.000
It does, and it takes thoughts pretty presumably, you know, when they when they're popping off texts.
00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:14.000
Yeah.
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:17.000
Right, then they have to benefit that much harder to go back and look at.
00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:23.000
What did you say so then? You think you saw what you alright?
00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:27.000
You know you think you know what they said, and you maybe know 75% of it.
00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:33.000
But it's that 25%, you missed. It's really critical to making a decision right?
00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:34.000
Oh, okay.
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:38.000
Or to accomplishing something, or whatever that might be. But that's where they I mean.
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:44.000
That's where they or they start verbally communicating about things that exchanges.
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:52.000
Then they leave the Exchange and forget, and they and they think they know what they remembered.
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:53.000
Yeah.
00:38:53.000 --> 00:39:02.000
But it was something different. Right? So one of my favorite things, I tell clients is, look! The faintest of ink is always more powerful than the most vivid memory.
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:04.000
The the faintest of ink. Oh, is always most important.
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:11.000
Is more powerful than most vivid memory.
00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:16.000
Yes, see, that's what they do. That's the thing they do right.
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:17.000
And so it's, really, it's really what it what's that consciousness?
00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:18.000
Very good. Yeah. Wow.
00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:31.000
You're gonna bring to actively functioning in life and not just continuing to react to what's happening around you.
00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:34.000
That's what the adversary process drives for families, and that's the habit that they have to break right because it's an adrenaline driven.
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:39.000
Yeah, wow, it is.
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:43.000
It's adrenaline driven, and it's and that's really unhealthy.
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:44.000
So true even for us as lawyers. Yeah.
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:51.000
Right. So exactly. I always lost weight if I went to trial.
00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:52.000
Right.
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:53.000
Oh, goodness! Well, that and losing sleep. Yeah, yeah.
00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:56.000
Well, there you go right. The cortisol from that doesn't really counteract that.
00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:02.000
You know, you're just to your stomach's too upset to eat right?
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:03.000
Right.
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:05.000
But but those are the past days.
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:15.000
And now you're focusing on helping parents build their 2 box assigned from just having the hammer in the nail.
00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:16.000
Yeah.
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:21.000
Well, that's right, I mean, you know, and it makes such a huge difference, for for their families.
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:22.000
Yeah.
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:31.000
Right, because they both wanna have functioning households, you know, and it really is a matter of how do you help them?
00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:36.000
How do you help them identify the skill, you know? How can we just add a little skill here?
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:37.000
Right.
00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:43.000
Right, you know, and that's where I that's where, when you're when you're doing that work, either as a coach or as a PC.
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:44.000
And you're really kind of kind of watching. What's you know?
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:57.000
How are they moving? How are they communicating that's where you can step in and say, Well, here's here's where I see you guys kind of went off a cliff right?
00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:58.000
Okay.
00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:02.000
And so let's talk about how are you gonna avoid going off the cliff and?
00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:09.000
So let's let's you know, we talked about your work as a parenting Coordinator, PC, let's talk about your work as a co-parenting coach.
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:10.000
What?
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:13.000
It's basically the same. It's just. I'm not a decision maker, right?
00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:14.000
So!
00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:16.000
And I don't make, and I don't make binding recommendations.
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:36.000
I mean, that's really the biggest differences we really is the level of it really has to do with what's the how do you match this skill level of the parents to to come to resolution without having to have somebody draw the line in the sand?
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:38.000
Okay.
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:39.000
Yeah.
00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:41.000
Right. So if you have parents who are really pretty high functioning, but they but they fall off the cliff right?
00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:42.000
Yeah.
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:43.000
They start they start communicating my text, and then poop.
00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:44.000
Yeah.
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:45.000
That's just we've got a big problem right?
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:49.000
You say, well, okay, so let's stop texting. That's the first thing.
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:57.000
That we're texting. Now we're texting no, we're talking about this stuff at exchanges that goes either in the transition email or in a specific email.
00:41:57.000 --> 00:41:58.000
Okay.
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:02.000
That's consistent with your communication preview. Right?
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:09.000
That says when you have an when you have an issue, it's in the subject line, is it?
00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:12.000
Is it, you know? Does it have a shelf? Life? Does that have to be?
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:18.000
Is it a quick turnaround time, you know you have to like kind of give notice.
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:19.000
Alright!
00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:32.000
I need a response right? Typically you're gonna have a communication protocol that requires a response within a certain period of time.
00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:33.000
Yeah.
00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:54.000
Or that parent will just simply make that make whatever little decision, or you know, do whatever thing needs to be done right but again, that's how you look at at using those other provisions in that again, that infamous paragraph 14 of the parenting plan that you really utilize that when I mediate
00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:55.000
Okay.
00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:57.000
with clients. I really try to help them utilize that by adding provisions that support them as co-parents, you know, and help them kind of self selectselect those things, and I identify.
00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:12.000
Yeah.
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:13.000
Right.
00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:21.000
Here's what I think are the pieces that really help you as co-parents, and that's looking at at just kind of communicating several times a year to make sure you're on the same page for how this parenting plan is going to flow through the year right and and then the kind of taking that down the
00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:22.000
Alright!
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:23.000
next that's the 30,000 foot level right? Then, taking that to week to week.
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:31.000
What are you going to do to communicate, to continue that flow and that's going to be those transition emails that's going to be.
00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:35.000
We need to discuss a certain thing. Here's what here's the information I have.
00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:39.000
What do you think about it? What are we gonna do right?
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:40.000
Yeah.
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:42.000
It's those kind of things.
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:53.000
You know, in terms of you like you're talking about one thing that parents can do to avoid being reactive in terms of the trial schedules having, you know, meet right?
00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:59.000
Having a meeting. Say, info, about what? What's what's up ahead?
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:00.000
Well, then, actually, January, depending. Yeah. Cause you.
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:02.000
What sports are we looking? Is it called? Oh, January, okay.
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:09.000
January, February. You can be looking at what are going to be the, you know, what are going to be, what are going to be the spring activities, what are going to be the summer camps?
00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:10.000
The summer. Yeah, yeah.
00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:14.000
How are you gonna do that? Right?
00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:17.000
Do you get involved in that? As a co-parenting coach?
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:18.000
Sometimes. Yeah.
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:22.000
Oh, yeah, sometimes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's really just kind of helping people.
00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:30.000
Because again, it really from my perspective, it doesn't come from a place of you know, somebody's a bad actor or any of that kind of thing.
00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:38.000
It's like, Okay, how are you guys just gonna manage this right again?
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:39.000
Okay.
00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:49.000
It's that expectation management perspective, right? You know that if and those are just simply using some skills or just management skills, right?
00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:50.000
Yeah.
00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:58.000
I mean. I told my clients that you know, if you think about, and this is what the co-parenting handbook talks about is you want to have a business relationship?
00:44:58.000 --> 00:44:59.000
Yeah.
00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:05.000
You don't have a professional relationship with your co-parent right?
00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:06.000
Yeah.
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:10.000
And so, if you think about it as a as essentially like a your co-workers or co-managers, and the product that you're producing are great kids right?
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:11.000
Right, yeah.
00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:21.000
And you may not like your coworker, but you get that if you're gonna produce this product, you have to be on the same page as as managers, right?
00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:22.000
Right.
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:28.000
And make all the gears work, so that at the end of the day you spit out that great kit right?
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:29.000
Yeah.
00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:45.000
And you know, and I remember I actually said that, I said, you know you don't have to love your co-workers, but you do have to find a way to navigate communications with them and navigate what you know how you accomplish things, how you plan so that you really are
00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:48.000
aligned on the end. Result.
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:57.000
Yeah, so true. And I like to also kinda think in the fact that the transition email, just an terms of communicating with the coworker.
00:45:57.000 --> 00:46:04.000
Let's think, if you were the transition emails almost like you're informing your core worker, where do you take off next on the pro track on the project?
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:05.000
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:09.000
You know what you did. You know what you did, what needs to be done?
00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:10.000
Think of it that way.
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:13.000
Yeah, absolutely. That's great. I love that. I love that.
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:16.000
Yeah.
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:17.000
Yeah.
00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:19.000
Because if you you know and you know, dealing with co-workers is relatable for most parents.
00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:20.000
Great. Yeah.
00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:28.000
Right. I mean, you know, it really is.
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:29.000
How do you communicate with them? Because you can't fire them?
00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:32.000
And so you know, if you have a coworker that you can't fire there you are right, right? Right? That's right.
00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:33.000
Yeah.
00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:37.000
And you don't wanna quit your job, you know.
00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:38.000
You!
00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:39.000
Which is brazen this great kid. Yeah, yeah.
00:46:39.000 --> 00:47:02.000
There you go. There you go. So you know it's that it's that that's so that that's what gets missed when parents are pushed into a system where they where there's this this sort of propensity to think of to think in terms of right and wrong you
00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:03.000
Yeah, right?
00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:13.000
know winner, loser, good and bad. You know that just is so.
00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:14.000
Right.
00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:15.000
That is just such, so much trying to fit a square peg into around hole for family right?
00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:23.000
In fact, you know, very, very early in my practice, when I was working with clients and family law, you know you have the client that walks in as like I wanna win.
00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:24.000
Oh, yeah.
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:35.000
And you know, and I would just I would listen politely, and then I would say, Look what you need to understand about family law is that it really isn't a winning or losing.
00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:36.000
So true!
00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:38.000
It's more often about losing or losing worse.
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:40.000
Oh, my! Gosh! Wow!
00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:45.000
Yeah. And and then I would, you know, and I would just saying, I've never felt that was a good option for my client.
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:54.000
Okay, that's that sums it up so perfectly. It's about it's about losing or losing worse. Cause isn't.
00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:59.000
Yeah, that's so great. It's not win or lose, losing or losing worse.
00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:10.000
Well that you know, and when you've right, because that's what, because, as I said, you know, I really think that families need to be able to solve.
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:11.000
Yeah, right?
00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:12.000
You know, when families split up they've got a problem.
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:19.000
Now I have never been able to solve a problem by shaming or blaming someone.
00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:21.000
Very true.
00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:22.000
Very true.
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:25.000
Right. I it just it's just, you know, it's sort of like, you know.
00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:33.000
I could not have money to pay my rent, and shaming somebody who didn't pay me, or blaming somebody who didn't pay me.
00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:34.000
Right, right.
00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:42.000
Still, isn't gonna pay my rent right? I mean, you really have to figure out, okay, where's the money?
00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:43.000
Yeah.
00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:45.000
Anybody can drop from. You know. There's some money what am I gonna do here?
00:48:45.000 --> 00:49:06.000
Right, and that really is about that, you know, and I haven't really thought about it.
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:07.000
Right.
00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:15.000
But but it is that it is that kind of personal accountability that that when we have kids in common, you know, when we have property in common, those kinds of things that you're looking at as sort of dividing up in a divorce, it really is helping define what's the new personal
00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:16.000
So true!
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:25.000
accountability. You have right. And then, really, how, finding a finding a path in which you balance the personal accountability as best you can.
00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:29.000
And then you learned that from reading the Co-parenting Handbook.
00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:30.000
Well, you learn different. I mean, learn some different skills about that.
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:37.000
Yeah.
00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:38.000
Right.
00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:39.000
And it doesn't frame it in that way. But I think you learn skills that support that support.
00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:42.000
Taking that personal account. Responsibility.
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:50.000
Do you in your buckets that you're doing co-parenting, coaching, parenting, coordinator, and family law mediator.
00:49:50.000 --> 00:50:02.000
Do? Do you do one more than the other? Do you think they're all equal?
00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:03.000
Yeah.
00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:07.000
In terms of in terms of the balance of folks that I work with I'd say they're pretty balanced.
00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:08.000
Okay.
00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:13.000
Actually, maybe I do more. PC. And mediation than than specific coherent coaching.
00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:25.000
But but it's all sort of, you know. I mean I think it all as part of working with families to help them move forward right?
00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:26.000
Okay.
00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:31.000
So. However, I take on that, you know. So I just take on that tasks as it comes.
00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:32.000
Yeah.
00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:35.000
Those tasks as they. You know those cases as they come to me.
00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:42.000
Working with families to help them move forward in a non-adversarial, non reactive way.
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:57.000
Well, you know they yeah, I mean, it's just really a matter of you know.
00:50:57.000 --> 00:50:58.000
Okay.
00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:00.000
If you, I mean, I think what people get really frustrated about in the adversary system is that whether they're whether they feel like they're prevailing or not, they still feel unproductive.
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:01.000
Oh, so true. Yeah.
00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:06.000
You know, even if they win that was why I that was why I just was like this, isn't.
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:11.000
This is winning. This is just a mess. Okay, it's, you know.
00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:15.000
I was just like, Yeah, I don't. I'm not seeing.
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:19.000
This is being very useful and that's the thing is that people, you know call me hopelessly optimistic.
00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:38.000
But I really believe that people wanna be productive in their lives.
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:39.000
Right.
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:48.000
They want to have open hearts. They want to just live their lives in a way that that you know, that they get their needs met, that you know that they can care for their kids, and so it's really, you know, anything that kind of takes them off that path just doesn't seem fair to me you know.
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:49.000
it's just kind of like, you know. Really, it isn't.
00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:56.000
Gonna be helpful. And you know they and they kind of tell you, look, I'm really frustrated in this process.
00:51:56.000 --> 00:52:01.000
What else can I do? And it's not file another motion usually.
00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:02.000
Right, you know, it's just.
00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:07.000
That is still true. No. Finally, another motion, no, it does not help at all.
00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:08.000
Yeah. No.
00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:09.000
Not usually I mean, unless you have something, unless it's just a situation where nobody is going to change.
00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:29.000
But for the most part, I think when people realize that they're feeling defeated, they're not feeling empowered.
00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:30.000
Alright!
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:42.000
And so finding a way in which you can help them disrupt that feeling, and put them on a path where they actually feel not powerful, meaning that they're dominating, but that they can feel impacted to take control of their own situation again, it's that personal responsibility and accountability that they can take that
00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:49.000
and then, you know, just take charge of it for themselves. That's what really tends to serve families.
00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:58.000
So true? And is that coming? And it just it seems like, though, for people to get empowered again, it's they need that either a really emotionally intelligent family law attorney.
00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:05.000
Such as yourself, or get that co-parenting, coaching.
00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:06.000
Yeah.
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:08.000
Correct. That's correct. Yeah, that's correct, you know.
00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:15.000
And that's where that's for good mental health providers, you know, can be supportive of that.
00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:27.000
I mean, it's you know, I mean, for some people, for some people they really do need a therapeutic intervention.
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:28.000
Right.
00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:29.000
But for many people they really just need somebody to kind of help them step back from what they're doing and assess what's going on.
00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:35.000
And then help them figure out what's missing, and how can you feel?
00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:50.000
Yeah. And again, it just goes. I mean, such a great visual you gave there about how tools in your family law toolkit. Aside from the nail and hammer. And I think that's why it's so co-parenting coaching is so important to work with.
00:53:50.000 --> 00:54:06.000
Well, any you know, parents, families being in any kind of families in conflict, being in any kind of dispute, resolution process that is not adversarial is pretty much more likely to serve them than not.
00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:10.000
Only that, too. It's a solution that they come up with themselves as well.
00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:11.000
Right and I think that's what you're talking about.
00:54:11.000 --> 00:54:12.000
Exactly. That's exactly right.
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:17.000
That that person, accountability, cause, they created, that themselves.
00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:18.000
Yeah.
00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:20.000
Oh, yeah, they have ownership in it, right? It's relevant to them.
00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:22.000
And they don't have anybody else to blame but themselves right.
00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:23.000
Well!
00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:31.000
So there's that, you know. But the thing is that, you know, but it takes them away from that sense about that.
00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:32.000
There needs to be somebody to blame. Right? That's the difference between feeling empowered and feeling.
00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:37.000
Victimized.
00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:44.000
So true!
00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:45.000
Oh, I'm glad I could help you out with that today.
00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:48.000
That is very insightful. That's why you have all of those.
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:53.000
Oh, gosh! Well, you know. Thank you, we're here at the end of our time.
00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:54.000
Oh, okay. Boy.
00:54:54.000 --> 00:54:57.000
Thank you so much, Kathleen, for I know it just flew by.
00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:00.000
I know it was very fun, such a pleasure to spend time with you.
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:17.000
Well, I mean, just thank you so much for coming on and sharing your insight about all that you do with co-parenting, coaching, and your work as a parenting coordinator, and helping families as a mediator to create a durable parenting plan, that they can be
00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:18.000
It's critical. It's critical.
00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:23.000
happy with. And how do people, how do people get a hold of you to use your services?
00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:29.000
You know I'm very easy to find on the Internet, because I have the domain divorced mediation.
00:55:29.000 --> 00:55:30.000
Oh, okay.
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:40.000
Seattle, so you can just you know you can. It's very easy to find me if you just look for you know, literally, if you Google divorced mediation, Seattle, you can actually give it a try right there and see what happens.
00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:41.000
I'm gonna type I'm typing in right now.
00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:42.000
But okay, yeah.
00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:47.000
Divorce mediation. Seattle. Okay, there we go.
00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:48.000
How am I looking?
00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:53.000
Course, mediation, Seattle. I'm not seeing you.
00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:57.000
Oh, it's coming on. You're coming. Yeah, you're coming on.
00:55:57.000 --> 00:55:58.000
Should be Northwest family mediation, right?
00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:01.000
Yeah, there you go. It come. Well, I had all the paid ads first.
00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:02.000
Oh, there you go!
00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:17.000
But is there okay? So to work with Kathleen as a divorce, I'm sorry as a parenting coach to work with her as your family all family love mediator to help you create a parenting plan.
00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:33.000
If you're looking for parenting coordinator to help you because you just need that person to come in and make decisions because it's so much conflict. And because the court said, you need a parenting coordinator, then you can contact kathleen warrior at Seattle divorce mediation.
00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:41.000
Oh, actually, that's actually, that's a I'm Northwest family mediation.
00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:42.000
Yeah.
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:50.000
Oh, Northwest family mediation. Okay? So you're going to contact Kathleen at Northwest family Mediation and Kathleen, just last final question for you.
00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:51.000
Oh!
00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:54.000
What is? What is the last book that you read, or what is something that people wouldn't know about?
00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:59.000
You just from looking at you.
00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:10.000
So probably what most people would not know about me. Looking at me is that I'm a 7 time Seattle to Portland bike, ride, participant.
00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:11.000
Most recently, and yeah, 7 times most recently, in 2022.
00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:15.000
Oh, my gosh! 7 times! What? Oh, my gosh!
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:22.000
So was it an average 22 is the thirtieth anniversary of the first time I wrote the Seattle Portland Bike Ride.
00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:23.000
So I'm very proud of that. Made it all the way.
00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:26.000
Wow! And oh, my gosh! Congratulations! That's crazy!
00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:29.000
7 times.
00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:34.000
It was crazy. It was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun, you know.
00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:39.000
And if for those of you who are on the podcast, and can't see Kathleen, she's she's very petite.
00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:42.000
I'm like 5, 6, and I sorta. Kathleen, what are you?
00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:43.000
No, not even not even!
00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:46.000
520, my! Gosh! She's like, are you?
00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:47.000
No, I'm 5 feet. Yeah.
00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:48.000
4, 11, okay. Okay. She's a very tiny, very petite woman.
00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:55.000
And you wouldn't think of her being like this ultra athlete.
00:57:55.000 --> 00:57:56.000
Oh, well, I wouldn't. I don't know that I'd say ultra.
00:57:56.000 --> 00:57:58.000
But no wonder!
00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:02.000
But yeah, I'm committed. So there's that.
00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:07.000
Well is 2 is, are you gonna do 8 times in in 2024?
00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:10.000
Well, I'm waiting to. I'm gonna see about that.
00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:11.000
Okay.
00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:16.000
So that's you know, I'm not gonna do it this year, but I'm considering 2024.
00:58:16.000 --> 00:58:20.000
I'm I'm threatening that I'm gonna try it to do it in one day again.
00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:21.000
One day. Oh, wow!
00:58:21.000 --> 00:58:29.000
But watch this space. I don't. I don't think I'm I think my one day rides are over, but you never know.
00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:34.000
You never know.
00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:35.000
We'll see. We'll see what we can do.
00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:36.000
Oh, my, gosh, yeah. Well, good to look to you in 2024 then, and and thank you all for joining us again on another episode of the Akana law podcast.
00:58:36.000 --> 00:58:49.000
Where we talk about anything that intersects with the areas of family law and divorce.
00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:50.000
Thank you so much.
00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:51.000
And thank you again to my special guest, Kathleen Roryor, until next time.
00:58:51.000 --> 00:58:58.000
Stay safe and stay healthy out there. Thank you.