008 - Discussing the Role of a Parent Coordinator With Family Law Attorney, Elise Buie - Part 2

In today’s episode I continue my conversation with family law attorney, Elise Buie. We discuss the role of the parenting coordinator and what the difference is between the parenting coordinator and a Guardian ad Litem.

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Transcript

Lani Akiona:

Press record. Hi that subtitle again. Okay, so let's go ahead and do the countdown. Five, four, three, two and one. Hi, welcome back to another episode of Akiona Law podcast, wherein we talk about everything, relating to family law and divorce. I am Ululani "Lani" Akiona, and today we continue on part two of our conversation with family law firm leader, Guardian ad Litem and parenting coordinator, Elise Buie. Welcome back to the show. Elise, so glad to have you here again.

Elise Buie:

Thank you so much for having me, Lani. I really love chatting with you.

Lani Akiona:

Yeah, and that was such an interesting conversation that we did talking about, Guardian Litems. I learned so much and I enjoyed hearing your story too, especially that transition now about doing the interviews via Zoom, and I still thinking about what you said about how kids say the darn thing, and that was just great.

Elise Buie:

Kids are awesome.

Lani Akiona:

You, you got to listen to the first podcast, so you know what we're talking about. So now another fascinating line of work that you do in addition to the Guardian ad Litem is you do parenting coordinator. And it's so interesting that, well, I do King and Snohomish county, but in Snohomish county, the court's mostly rely on the Guardian Litems and not the parenting coordinators. Can you explain for our listeners out there? What is a parenting coordinator?

Elise Buie:

Absolutely. Oh go ahead.

Lani Akiona:

Oh, I was going to say, and what's the difference between in the parenting coordinator and a Guardian ad Litem?

Elise Buie:

Well, a parenting coordinator is not doing any investigation. A parenting coordinator has a parenting plan, usually already in place, and a court order setting forth what their roles and responsibilities are. I mean, I have been brought in, in some cases under a temporary family law order, where a residential schedule was set up early on in the case, and I've been brought in because the case is such high conflict, but mostly, you get brought in at the very end, you know? So once the case is settled, or even gone to trial, and a permanent parenting plan has been entered. And as part of that, there will be the appointment of a parenting coordinator, in some cases. Often a parenting coordinator's recommended by a Guardian ad Litem.

Elise Buie:

I mean, there are many cases that I have done as a Guardian ad Litem, and my recommendation, my number one recommendation is to get a parenting coordinator on board, that they don't need a bunch of things, they just need to not be dealing with each other and they need somebody to operate in between them. And that is what a parenting coordinator does. A parenting coordinator operates often in between a high conflict couple, or it could be a couple that's maybe got one person with some mental health issues, or substance abuse or something. So you are operating in the middle of this couple, and you're ideally trying to educate them on how to communicate in a way where they kind of let go of their spouse brain or their intimate partner brain, and they put on their, I call it the Co-CEO's Hat. So they put on their Co-CEO Hat, and they're trying to maximize their child or their children. And you're teaching them how to do that in a business-like professional, respectful way so that they can make decisions that are tied, and developmentally appropriate for their children. But without getting in this spiral, like sometimes I know you see high conflict families can get in spirals about nothingness.

Lani Akiona:

Yes. I've seen it. So, let me get this correct there, okay, so the GL or Guardian Litem will come in at the beginning of the case, technically at the temporary orders hearing, and the GL will make recommendations as to what a final parenting plan will look like. So then, the parenting coordinator comes in once that final parenting plan is entered.

Elise Buie:

Usually, yes.

Lani Akiona:

Okay.

Elise Buie:

Because an actual court order will be signed, a parenting coordinator court order. And so in that order, it'll set forth what the parenting coordinator's roles are.

Lani Akiona:

So how long does a parenting coordinator stay on board with the family?

Elise Buie:

That all depends on the court order? I mean, I've had cases where I've been with certain families for multiple years. I've had cases where I've been with a family for six months. I've had cases where I've recommended that a parenting coordinator come on when children are one and five, and they're going to stay on until they go to college and-

Lani Akiona:

What?

Elise Buie:

Oh yeah, well there's some families that just, they truly can't do it together, but each parent brings value to the child's life. We just have to keep them not dealing with each other. And they're able to bring value on their own. They're just not able to bring value in a way that it's ever kind of integrated.

Lani Akiona:

And, because obviously, and it's tough because, and I've dealt with, I had the worst high conflict case ever. I think it went for about six years, and it was here in Snohomish, it was in Snohomish county. And I was so disappointed because of we had a Guardian Litem in the case. And one thing I was advocating for and pushing, and this was because I had gone to the AFCC conferences, and in case you missed part one, AFCC stands for Association Family Conciliation Courts. I may not be saying that right, but Association Family Conciliation Courts, and Elise and I had talked about, they put on these seminars where they really mesh kind of the mental health piece aspect of family law, and with also the legal aspect of it too. And it's really enlightening when you're dealing in family law and divorce, to there's no other place where you can get that melting of mental health and law, except for Association Family Conciliation Courts webinars, seminars, things like that.

Lani Akiona:

So, so based on my education with them, I was like, "These people, they cannot get along. They just cannot communicate with one another. It's always this barbs of what the other parent is not doing right or wrong." And as we talked about in this first episode, a lot of it had to do with food where, you know, you've got one parent who's really into the children need to eat a certain way, and they need to eat healthy. And the other parent, that's just not the higher priority for them. And both parents love their kids, but they just don't agree with how the other is parenting, and therefore it's just conflict, conflict, conflict. And ultimately, the children suffer.

Lani Akiona:

And I said, and I was practically begging the court, "Can you please get a parenting coordinator? These people cannot communicate with each other. They're in constant conflict, and it hurts their children. We need a parenting coordinator." And it just got completely dismissed. And I couldn't think of any other case if you've been in litigation for over six years, why not have a parenting coordinator? And I don't know if it's an issue of cost, or if maybe they just truly didn't understand. I honestly think dad was so controlling that no matter what mom suggested, dad was going to say no. But it was just so in for that, even the Guardian Litem said, "Oh no, they don't need a parenting coordinator in this case." And I know that this Guardian Litem had taken classes from ADFF because I've seen her at a seminar, and I was just livid.

Elise Buie:

Well, it's frustrating because to have a family in litigation and for six years, I mean, let's be serious. We want to talk about cost of a parenting coordinator? The cost of litigation far exceeds the cost of one parenting coordinator.

Lani Akiona:

Well, that's a good point.

Elise Buie:

And I mean, the cost of the children's therapy that they're going to need because they are subjected to constant conflict is going to be quite pricely as well. And I think it is a huge mistake, and I think we see it often in Snohomish where the court is hesitant to appoint a parenting coordinator. I think there's a lack of understanding about the process, and about how it can help the process. And I think that we practitioners have to do everything within our power to educate the court commissioners and judges on how much conflict damages children. It is not the divorce, it is not living in two homes, it is not that one parent does organic broccoli, and the other parent does cheap macaroni and cheese. It is the conflict that is the problem.

Lani Akiona:

That is so true. My kids love that Kraft Macaroni and Cheese.

Elise Buie:

So do mine, unfortunately. I think I'm doing really fancy because I buy them Annie's and I'm like, "Look at these, you're getting organic macaroni and cheese." And they're just like, "Don't be ridiculous."

Lani Akiona:

No, they're like, "No, we want Kraft." I try to do this, I try to mix peas and carrots. I get frozen peas and carrots, I steam them and I put it in there, but no, nobody wants that. They just want the plain Kraft Macaroni and Cheese, no vegetables. And it just kills me, but I'm just like, got to let it go. Let it go. So yes. So, what would you tell the course or the commissioner listeners out there about how this parenting coordinator can help people? Because in my head, I'm trying to think like, okay, so if I'm the parent and I would be like, "Oh, I'm so mad because, because he fed the kids Kraft Macaroni and Cheese and they didn't have one piece of damn vegetable that night." Is that what these people are reaching out to you for?

Elise Buie:

Sometimes, yeah, for sure. I mean, and the thing is, what the parenting coordinator is supposed to do is be that buffer. So be in the middle of them, and in some cases that looks like they're never going to see each other's name on an email. In some cases I'm going to say like, "Send me, only me, whatever you need to send me," I'm going to rephrase it, put it in solid BIFF language where it's brief, informative, friendly, and firm, and I'm going to then send it off to the other parent. And after I've made my edits and fixed it, so then we can get a decision and that other parent isn't going to be triggered by what was initially sent to me, like, "My psycho ex is serving macaroni and cheese, and I'm over here with my blanched organic broccoli that I picked out of the yard and my children are suffering."

Elise Buie:

And I mean, so there's that methodology, but then there's some couples I actually encourage them to who include me on their communication and they're able to communicate some, but they kind of, aren't great at it. So I'm going to teach them how to do this. I'm going to rewrite an email and I'm going to say, "Thanks, Susie Q for your email, let's rephrase all this." And I'll literally put in there in red, I'm like, "See my notes below in red," and I will rewrite it. And then I'll be like, "Okay, Jack, now you can respond to this request." So they've watched the process of how to change their communication, because the goal is that I can get out and they can start doing this on their own. Now, obviously that's not always the goal, some couples, it's just not practical. They won't be able to do it. But some couples clearly will be able to do it. If I have six months, 12 months with some families, I mean we can revolutionize their communication.

Lani Akiona:

Ah, interesting. And so how do you phrase that when you have... And again, we're not trying to advocate Kraft Macaroni and Cheese here. We're not trying to promote that product, but how do you turn around that email where you have an upset parent, who is upset because the other parent is again, maybe feeding them pizza for dinner, or feeding them macaroni and cheese for dinner, and not the vegetables?

Elise Buie:

Well, the reality is, I mean, I'm going to help educate both parents that we don't get to control what happens in each other's homes. That's a no go, you're separated or divorced, you're living in homes, and all you both need to be are good enough parents. I mean, no court is going to take away a kid from a dad, and I'm using a dad as an example, it could be a mom, who's serving their kid pizza with no vegetables. I mean, that's not going to happen. Do you know what I mean? And so we have to learn how to let certain things go. And maybe whoever is the organic broccoli type, maybe they're going to have to squeeze in some more vegetables on their time, because they're concerned. Maybe they're going to have to talk to their child about advocating for their own nutrition. I mean, some children love vegetables, and they will learn to advocate to eat well.

Elise Buie:

The other thing I encourage parents to do, and often I will institute it, is I'll get their pediatric records. And I'm like, "Let's look at your child's medical records. Are there any concerns here about your children's nutrition from a how are they growing and how are they developing?" Because the reality is, I mean, children will likely be fine with eating organic broccoli, just with one parent.

Lani Akiona:

Right. You bring up a good point about how you look at the pediatrician records. And I've had this come up before where I have one parent telling me, "My son has a glucose, or even a lactose allergy, and every time he goes to dad, dad disregards it and gives a kid milk or ice cream." So as a parenting coordinator, how do you deal with that type of dilemma?

Elise Buie:

I would bring in the medical professional. I would figure out either from the records, whether such an allergy has actually been diagnosed, or is it just a parent has self-diagnosed via Google that this is what the child has. So we have to be wary of the Google doctor-

Lani Akiona:

[crosstalk 00:15:18] Trusty old Google.

Elise Buie:

Yes, exactly. So Dr. Google sometimes gets it wrong. And so, bringing in that professional and I mean, that might mean I'm calling that pediatrician, and I'm having a conversation with, at that pediatrician. If I don't see that lactose intolerant allergy test in the records, I'm going to find out, is this something you've diagnosed? Is this something you've had concerns about? Has this been brought up in appointments? What do I need to do to make sure that that child's best interests are happening, and we're all following the parenting plan?

Elise Buie:

And obviously part of my role is making sure we're all following the parenting plan. So if there's a dispute, I'm going to be looking to what is that dispute resolution clause in their parenting plan? How are we supposed to resolve things? Most of the time when a parenting coordinator's put in place, I am charged with if the ability to decide. And so, oftentimes I can make a recommendation obviously, because Washington law is that a judge always has the final decision on the best interest of a child, they can bring my decision into court and fight it. Anybody can say like, "No, she did wrong." You know what I mean? And a judge could take a different approach. And sometimes there's actually an arbitration. Oftentimes in these very high conflict cases, there'll be a parenting coordinator who gets to decide, then they'll go to arbitration, then they'll go back to court. So, I mean, they might have three layers of decisions that they have to get through.

Lani Akiona:

Okay, so that's interesting then in that type of act aspect where let's say there is a documented lactose allergy and you talk about it with the dad and you say, "I've spoken with the pediatrician. This is a real thing." And dad remains obstinate, it's like, "No, I'm going to feed my kid ice cream. He loves it." And then, you make a decision, you say, "Do not feed your kid ice cream. It is not in his best's interest." Is that how it works out?

Elise Buie:

Yeah. I would write a mini letter type thing, like a report almost. And I would put forth what the dispute was, what I did, then I would make my recommendation, and then either parent could take that on through their dispute resolution process, as they deem fit.

Lani Akiona:

Okay. That's interesting. And so, you talked about how when you're working with couples together and you were, you mentioned how people have to exercise their muscles in terms of communication and co-parenting, and it's as something you have to learn, right?

Elise Buie:

Oh yeah.

Lani Akiona:

And so when you're working with couples, do you assign them certain books to read, like you said, mentioned BIFF, and for brief, informative, friendly and fun.

Elise Buie:

Firm.

Lani Akiona:

Oh, firm, I'm sorry. Not fun.

Elise Buie:

It's William Eddy's, that's his acronym. William Eddy who runs the High Conflict Institute. But often in my parenting coordination work, depending on the facts, most parents, I mean, I would say solidly 95% of them, they have to read The Co-Parenting Handbook. And sometimes I assign it out chapter by chapter. And that is written by Karen Bonnell, who is a practitioner here on the east side of Seattle. And she is just a ninja with co-parents, and just does an amazing job. And if I'm dealing with a family that's got really interesting step family dynamics, or dating dynamics, I'm going to have them read The Step Family Handbook, also written by Karen Bonnell. And we're going to go through that, because there lot that they can learn, especially with The Co-Parent Handbook about what is their ideal? What are we trying to get to here?

Elise Buie:

I mean, I find if I can get both parents to read The Co-Parenting Handbook, they can understand what it should be looking like. And so, then when they're falling short, and they're having a problem, we can say, "Okay, wait a minute, we've all read Chapter Four. Let's go back and read it again. This is our goal. Let's try to get here." And so really working with them on education around how their conflict is damaging their children is one of my highest goals as a parenting coordinator, because I want them be able to do it without me. I don't want to be in somebody's family for six years, seven years where they're paying me, not paying for their kids to go to soccer or something. I want the kids to keep all their family money in their family, and not be paying me. And so the more I can help teach them how to communicate, the better.

Elise Buie:

And I have to say, I mean, I have a case right now that I think I've been on for several years. They just keep me CC'd on everything. They have not had problems in several years, but I bet the minute they stop CCing me, they would have problems again. So they just keep CCing me. And it's pretty simple, and I read emails from them every three days. I'll just run through, make sure they're having no problems. And it's all good.

Lani Akiona:

Wow. That's interesting. They're just CCing you.

Elise Buie:

They do. I mean, one of them made a comment, they're like, "I feel like it's having big sister on all the communication." I was like, "Whatever works." But it's kind of like when people use OFW, OurFamilyWizard. I find sometimes if you pull people out of their texts, and you get them onto OurFamilyWizard, all of a sudden they do better.

Lani Akiona:

So in terms of the parenting coordinator, so I'm trying to figure out, would you recommend that people use OurFamilyWizard or not, if they're just CCing you on these communications?

Elise Buie:

Well, I think OurFamilyWizard offers a lot more than just a communication platform. I mean, I always recommend OurFamilyWizard because, one, I think it just allows families to keep all their data in one place where there's no mystery about where the medical records are, where the expense records are, where the school records are. And it just is so simple. I mean, trying teach parents, some people will say like, "Well, I took the kids to the doctor and now dad is asking me for the after doctor report." And I'm like, "Why does he have to ask? Why didn't you take a picture and upload it into OurFamilyWizard, so that the information is there, just like you would want that exact information if he took the children to the doctor."

Elise Buie:

And it's just part of being a respectful co-parent is, you share data about the children in as simple a way as possible. Because one parent should not act as a secretary to the other parent. But I mean, you've got to share the data just like in an intact family. I mean, most parents in an intact family don't all go to the doctor together. You know what I mean? Often people are busy, and one person might go, but you need to share what happened. I mean, the other parent should know what happened at the doctor's visit, and OurFamilyWizard allows for that so simple and so inexpensively.

Lani Akiona:

But couldn't it be too, in terms as to one parent doesn't have to be a secretary, do you recommend, or do you tell parents, "Well, hey mom, if you're signed up to receive these records, hey dad, why don't you sign up to receive these records too?"

Elise Buie:

Oh, of course. Both parents should be signed up, but mostly when you go to a pediatrician appointment, they hand you an actual paper copy of the business.

Lani Akiona:

Oh, I see what you're saying.

Elise Buie:

They don't send anything else out .and for sure, could another parent pick up the phone, call the doctor, ask them to send over the record. But should they have to do that? No, they shouldn't have to do that. A parent should be able to click a picture on their phone, upload it to OurFamilyWizard in about 10 and a half seconds, and that should just be what happens.

Lani Akiona:

Yeah. That makes sense.

Elise Buie:

It should happen both ways. I'm not at all saying just one parent should do that; both parents should always be sharing the data.

Lani Akiona:

Okay. So you do highly recommend then, using OurFamilyWizard, especially when there's a high conflict case, regardless where there's a parenting coordinator or not?

Elise Buie:

Absolutely. And I mean, that allows lawyers to look in and see what's going on too. I mean, if a lawyer's really doing their job, and their client does have OurFamilyWizard I mean, you can look in and see things rather than rely on what your client tells you. Because often, what our clients tell us has a bent that might not be fully accurate. And so being able to see the communication is very helpful.

Lani Akiona:

So in terms of, I would think, especially, well, in my experience with high conflict cases, it's occurring daily.

Elise Buie:

Oh yeah. Oh, I mean, there are families that I have been engaged with daily, I mean, where things happen daily, and it's literally, I mean, I've had one family where I literally think to myself in the morning, I wake up and I'm like, I" wonder what kind of glitchy thing is going to occur today." And you just know that that's going to happen. And it does get better though over time. I find that as they start getting away from litigation, and away from their attorneys, and I don't mean to attack us attorneys, but I mean, we can cause a lot of the conflict, and the more they can get away from us, and away from litigation, the better they tend to be. And the more they're around the damage the conflict is doing to their children, most parents are not intentionally trying to damage their children. And when they can truly understand how their behavior is negatively impacting their child, many parents will turn the mirror on themselves and try to make some adjustments.

Lani Akiona:

That makes sense. And you said one of the books you mentioned that people read is The Co-parenting Handbook by Karen Bonnell. And we also talked about BIFF, brief, informative, friendly and firm by William, "Bill" Eddy. Are there any other books that you have parents read when you're working with them as a parenting coordinator?

Elise Buie:

No. Those are the main ones we read, except the Fair Play. I have just started encouraging people to read Fair Play, because that is such a great book, and just philosophy on how to divvy up the task of a family. So in a divorce setting, it's particularly helpful, because the whole model is how to conceptualize, plan and execute all the tasks of a family. And the whole idea is that one person must own the whole car. They must own the conceiving, planning, and executing. You can't divvy it up in the middle, because then there's miscommunications, and things fall through the cracks. And so, the thing that's probably the most compelling is, when you get the Fair Play cards, along with the book, you see just how many tasks are involved in raising a family, and in just running your life. And obviously, in many homes, historically women do a lot of this mental load, and kind of this second shift work. And it's a real issue in divorced homes about, if parents are especially trying to do a 50:50 plan, I always tell my clients, "A 50:50 plan means you're two, 100% parents. I mean, you've got to be on your game to be a 50:50 parent."

Elise Buie:

And so, the Fair Play system allows you to go through, divvy up cards, divvy up all the tasks, and make sure that you are doing what's important to you, and you are agreeing to do what you're agreeing to do, and things don't fall through the cracks.

Lani Akiona:

I just pulled it up on Amazon, Fair Play by Eve Rodsky, R-O-D-S-K-Y. It looks like the hardcover price is $21.92, but of course you can get it cheaper if you buy used, Kindle's 10.99. And there's a quote here. Reese Witherspoon says, "A hands-on, real talk guide for navigating the hot buttons issues that so many families struggle with."

Elise Buie:

Oh yeah. She's a co-parent with her ex.Nd it's kind of game changing. I mean, Fair Play is truly game changing.

Lani Akiona:

I'm going to go ahead and pick that up.

Elise Buie:

Yeah. I really highly recommended it. It's a great recommendation for any client that's going through divorce, for sure.

Lani Akiona:

Just going through divorce in general, then? Not necessarily 50:50?

Elise Buie:

Absolutely.

Lani Akiona:

I'm trying to see if this would be helpful for a relocation.

Elise Buie:

Relocations are tough, as you know. It's hard to split that baby.

Lani Akiona:

It's hard, but I try to put the positive spin that, "Well, hey, instead of seeing the child every other weekend, you get this larger consecutive chunk of time."

Elise Buie:

And I think a lot of parents, I mean, I'm going to just be really transparent and say that, I mean, we had our own relocation in our family where I relocated out to Washington, and my ex was in Minnesota. We actually did a thing and we bought our house in Seattle, we bought a house large enough that there was a room that he could come stay in, and my current husband and I had a second home, and so we could go to our second home, and he could come stay in the home. I mean, and it really made a difference in allowing him to have time with the children on their turf, so that teachers, and friends, and actually do those things. People can do a lot of things by putting their children front and center, rather than having them caught in the middle. I mean, because I'm not at all saying my ex and I were close.

Lani Akiona:

Right.

Elise Buie:

But we definitely were committed to putting our children front and center, in all the things.

Lani Akiona:

Wow. That's a interesting solution to that problem where, I mean, that kind of made sense. I was in a case one time where they were doing a 50:50, and the parents would take turns out of living in the primary home.

Elise Buie:

Yeah. Nesting.

Lani Akiona:

Yeah.

Elise Buie:

That's called nesting. Yeah.

Lani Akiona:

So, what is it called again?

Elise Buie:

Nesting.

Lani Akiona:

Nesting. Okay.

Elise Buie:

I've had a lot of families do that.

Lani Akiona:

And this was way back when. This was maybe 10 or 15 years ago. And so, it was a very novel solution at the time where the dad basically got an apartment, and when it was mom's time with the child in the home, he stayed in the apartment, and vice versa; when it was his time, he was back in the home, and then mom stayed in the apartment. And then the kid didn't have to go back and forth. And it was dad's idea, because dad was trying to figure out, what's what's least impactful for this young boy.

Elise Buie:

Right. Well, and there's big financial implications too, when you go back to what you mentioned about relocation. A lot of times, if a parent wants to enjoy time with the child on the child's kind of primary turf, they're looking at a hotel, or an Airbnb or the things really become expensive. And no child actually really wants to go chill at a hotel with their parent who's just flown in, when they have a home in that same city. It's tough. It's a tough sell for kids. And so, I think parents have to really think it creatively, and think outside the box, and really try to put their children front and center of their decision making.

Elise Buie:

And these things look different too developmentally. What works for an eight year old is not going to work for a 16 year old, and I think that becomes a real issue in relocation is when you have a teenager who might be involved in an extracurricular, or a job, or their peers, they don't want to go spend a summer in another place for weeks and weeks on end. And that is very hard. And a lot of times I think parenting plans set the parent who's moved, up for real failure, because they're not addressing what the child is really going to want to be doing in their summer.

Lani Akiona:

Yeah. And that is a hard part, especially as you said, when they get to be teenagers, and once they start driving and they can actually, I don't know, maybe it just depends.

Elise Buie:

It definitely depends.

Lani Akiona:

Because it depends where someone is living, right? Let's say someone relocated, let's say someone was in Hawaii, and they're like, "Yeah, sure. I want to spend summers in Hawaii with my dad."

Elise Buie:

That sounds great. As opposed to maybe small town, I don't know, Indiana or something, or some really hot, buggy place, they might not be all into that. It so depends on the children, what happens. But I think attorneys and professionals that work with families, we have to dig into all those things. We can't just be creating parenting plans in any type of cookie cutter way, because I think we do a real disservice to the children who are subjected to those.

Lani Akiona:

It's definitely tough, for sure. A good parenting plan will take you while to create. So, going back to the parenting coordinator, so it just almost kind of, is it safe to call the parenting coordinator almost a mediator between the parties? I know you use the word, "Buffer," is, "Buffer" more appropriate?

Elise Buie:

I would say, "Buffer." Yes. I mean because I think of a mediator as somebody who's really trying to get people to the middle, and especially in a facilitative mediation, really kind of bringing their expertise, and their opinion and they're kind of really trying to move them. I don't know that I try to move them. I have to accept that they are where they are. I have to try to help them be able to hear each other, and make sure they have all the data needed, where they can make a decision. Then if they're not able to still make it, I'm just going to make it. Do you know what I mean?

Lani Akiona:

Yes. I know what you mean. One second. I got to close my door. My a dog came in and opened up my door.

Elise Buie:

Oh yes. The joys of our Zoom life with our pets, kids, cats.

Lani Akiona:

I'm like, "I thought that door was closed." And then I felt a dog licking my feet and I was like, "Dang it, I guess they pushed the door open with their nose." Geez.

Elise Buie:

Yes, indeed.

Lani Akiona:

Okay. So definitely a buffer. And just in terms, what's an idea of cost in terms of parenting coordinator, do people put a retainer down and then they work out of that?

Elise Buie:

Yes. Usually that's how it works. And I would say the cost is heaviest in that first month, because the parenting coordinators getting to know the parties, reading the documents and such, and then, depending on how much they use the parenting coordinator, obviously that will dictate the cost. And in some families like with COVID, I've had several cases where there's been issues around vaccinations, and whether the child should go back to in-person school. So those costs are raised for certain reasons. And then, we might go for months and months and have no costs, because they're not having conflicts about anything. So, it really just depends. It's very cyclical though; the holidays often bring out costs, going back to school, changing schools, those types of things. And then often another area is medical providers and therapy, like who gets to choose the therapist, and can they agree on a therapist? That's often an issue that people kind of bump against.

Lani Akiona:

And what would a parenting coordinator retainer, would that range from about maybe 3,500 to 6,500?

Elise Buie:

Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I'd have to look at my own fee agreement to know exactly what is, but I would say, yeah. I mean, I would think it's around between 5,000 and $7,000 for a retainer for a parenting coordinator.

Lani Akiona:

Yeah. And especially too, because like you said, I get what you're saying in that first month especially, it might be a little bit more, but once, almost in a way when people settle to routine, cost starts to go down.

Elise Buie:

Absolutely.

Lani Akiona:

Do you know what generally, is the hourly rate?

Elise Buie:

I guess I don't. I mean, I don't know what everyone's hourly rate is, but it probably depends on what their experience is, whether they're an attorney, or just a mental health professional, there's different. Because some people will seek out a parenting coordinator that's a mental health professional, or maybe has some expertise, and maybe you have a special needs child, and so that might be up an alley for a particular expertise.

Lani Akiona:

Right. And so, it's that range like the Guardian ad Lidems, just depending on a person's certification, and expertise, and background.

Elise Buie:

Yeah. I mean, I would say in that, 200 to $350 an hour kind of range.

Lani Akiona:

Right. Okay, that makes sense. Any final, last words about tips about working with a parenting coordinator?

Elise Buie:

I mean, I guess my only tip would be to not be scared of it. People don't know about it, it would be to try to really educate yourself about parenting coordinator, and see how it can help the clients you're working with. Because I think all of us practitioners, we've all found ourselves in situations where we look at the conflict, and we're kind of stunned by how much it is, how defeated it is, and how damaging it is. And we often as practitioners, have a hard time seeing, how are we ever going to get out of that? But sometimes getting fresh, new eyes, and somebody who's trained in parenting coordination, I mean, you really can move people from that. And that is very powerful for families, who are used to high conflict mess.

Lani Akiona:

And not only that, it's just, I think, I mean, frankly, it breaks my heart as a family law attorney to see that level of high conflict, because I know ultimately it's hurting the kids. But the law doesn't allow you to fix that. And that's why having that parent, that parenting coordinator is a really important piece. And the only thing I can make suggestions as an attorney is, see a family, what is it called? I'm losing my-

Elise Buie:

Family systems therapist?

Lani Akiona:

Yeah. Something like that. Or just because sometimes people see therapists and they don't realize need to have that license where it's a family, marriage and licensed therapist. [crosstalk 00:39:41] Someone who specializes. Say that again?

Elise Buie:

LFMT. A licensed family and marriage therapist.

Lani Akiona:

Yeah.

Elise Buie:

It makes a real difference. And I think that the other thing I think, and I try to help people understand is, when you are enmeshed in this conflict, you are not able to move on from your divorce. Your divorce becomes traumatic rather than transformational. And I always want my clients to have transformational divorces, where they can look and see them operating as their best selves on the other side, not mired in trauma, and conflict constantly. Because that's just going to tear somebody down, and that's never going to benefit the children if the parents are tearing each other down. I mean its hard enough to parent. Do you know what I mean? As a solid, functioning person, parenting is tough.

Lani Akiona:

Wow. Powerful words from you, Elise Buie. Goodness. Okay, and then you heard it ladies and gentlemen, if you're going through a divorce, get that book Fair Play by Eve Rodsky, R-O-D-S-K-Y. And Elise, how can people get ahold of you if they need to work with you as a parenting coordinator, or if they just need help with family law and divorce in general?

Elise Buie:

Well, they could just look for our website at Elise Buie Family Law, and we'd be happy to talk with them.

Lani Akiona:

And Buie is spelled B-U-I-E, folks.

Elise Buie:

Yeah.

Lani Akiona:

And Elise is E-L-I-S-E. Well, thank you so much, Elise for coming back for a second time, and talking about parenting coordinators. Really appreciate your time and this wealth of information that you shared. I know I learned so much about the Guardian Litem process, and additionally parenting coordinators as well. So thank you so much for joining us.

Elise Buie:

Absolutely. And thanks for having me. I hope you have a great day and a great weekend.

Lani Akiona:

Thank you. And everyone, thank you for listening and stay safe and healthy.

Elise Buie:

Thank you.